May 26, 2012
Great Mystery to New Member
Brian I’ve seen the terms evidence confused with ‘proof’. Evidence is anything USED to demonstrate the truth of an assertion. Evidence is NOT proof of the truth of the assertion unless it is SUFFICIENT in accordance with an accepted quantitative standard.
JJ Welcome to the group Brian.
Technically one could say there is only proof of one thing and that is Descartes’ statement, “I think, therefore, I Am.” You could even be dreaming that you are at the computer reading this. Maybe you are really a green-eyed monster dreaming about living as a human on planet earth.
Generally, we accept something as proof if there is a very high probability that it is true. For instance, funding an iPad in a forest presents such strong evidence that the device was not created by elements of the forest, but designed and left by some intelligence. One would accept such a premise as proof, not worth even debating.
DNA is more complex than the IPad and it is amazing that this is not considered proof of design, but even more amazing is that some do not even consider it evidence, let alone, reasonable evidence.
It will be fun, when we pass over, to watch atheists after they die and discover themselves still alive in an astral body in the spirit world. Then they will encounter spiritual scientists that work on stimulating our evolution and it will become obvious that the complexity of life didn’t happen by chance but the improvement through greater complexity happens by design just as an improvement in Microsoft Word has to happen by design.
When they see how things are put together through intelligent design they will feel like whacking themselves on the side of the head and saying, “Why couldn’t I have seen this when I was on earth?” He will indeed be amazed by his previous ignorance. He’ll feel like the guy that finds an iPad in a Forest who thought the forest made it and then discovers the obvious truth.
I might point out that my blog on The Majority Speaks is for the general public and not meant to bring much enlightenment to this group – except to give them tools in dealing with others.
This group takes a number of items for granted as a foundation for what is discussed. Among them are:
(1) There is a God or Higher Intelligence. (2) There are higher lives with higher intelligence than generally acknowledged by humans. (3) Death is not the end, neither is it the beginning to our existence. (4) Our consciousness can contact soul energy which is the bridge between spirit and matter and access true principles. (5) The spirit/soul within us can recognize truth and if we tune into it we will experience the ultimate proof/evidence.
Concepts that fall within these five categories are generally discussed, not as to whether or not they are true, but in the direction of seeking greater understanding on them. On the other hand, nothing is off limits if it is of interest to the group.
Brian Some have argued that only an intelligent creator could create intelligent beings. Again, what definition of intelligent are we accepting for this analysis?
JJ I would say intelligence is that which is capable of creating complex order that is not random.
Brian: All but abstract thought can be explained by evolution.
JJ But the question is not based on evolution or no evolution, but whether evolution takes place because it is guided by higher intelligence – just as computer programs evolve because they are improved through intelligent effort.
Brian I think the strongest evidence of the existence of a God or intelligent creator is what I believe to be the innate moral compass. Quoting Sam Harris (The Moral Landscape): “… people who draw their worldview from religion generally believe that moral truth exists, but only because God has woven it into the very fabric of reality; while those who lack such faith tend to think that notions of “good” and “evil” must be the product of evolutionary pressure and cultural intervention.”
JJ I wouldn’t consider a moral compass to be powerful evidence that there is a God or Higher Intelligence. Any sense of morality you want could be programmed into a computer program using current technology. I would say that a living cell and the DNA is many times more powerful evidence.
In addition to this the basic morality of the atheist and believer is very similar. Both generally believe we should not murder, steal, lie, rape, plunder etc.
Brian: While all of these factors, admittedly, influence human values there is empirical evidence that that the brain has an innate ability to recognize right from wrong and trigger responses to the body. If a human was isolated from the above influences and kept in a sterile environment for years, receiving nutritional sustenance, his response to a posed moral dilemma would mirror most of civilized society. Science has identified hormones known as vasopressin and oxytocin, considered to be stress regulators. The brain signals the body to produce levels appropriate to respond to the impulse presented to the body.
JJ Everything manifesting in the physical body are the result of designs first made in the world of Spirit.
If one says Microsoft Word has a spell checker and explains how words get spelled correctly he would be far from the full explanation. The much fuller explanation is that the spell corrector was intelligently designed and added to Word. This is the real reason spelling is corrected by the program.
Brian: Guilt isn’t something learned (although one often hears about it). Guilt is an emotion from within!
JJ I have written a lot about guilt and illusions around it. If you do a Google search in the archives on the word you’ll find a plethora of material.
Guilt is learned and can be unleared. All the guilt I have felt in my life was learned and I unlearned it and have not had a twinge of guilt in decades. If I make a mistake I now just see it as a mistake that needs corrected. If I hurt someone I will feel bad about it but not guilty. Guilt has no reason behind it. One can be made to feel guilty about eating peas or drinking coffee – as in the Mormon church.
Brian; I’ve also seen some discussion here about the ‘special’ status of humans in the mind of God. (I’m paraphrasing)Well let me try to look at that another way: What if this (meaning this human life) is the reward for prior existence or prior deeds?
JJ Just about all members here believe in reincarnation and believe that the situation we are in now was influenced by past lives. Brian: What if the senses are the ultimate gift?
JJ Our senses are indeed important. The inner connection with Spirit is perhaps even more important.
Again, welcome to the group and hope you have a good time here.
May 26, 2012
Dan: What is the defining difference between “feeling bad” and “feeling guilty” in this context?
JJ Sin comes from a Greek word meaning “to miss the mark.” When the ancient Greeks shot an arrow at a target and missed they said they sinned. When they missed the target they felt bad but they didn’t feel guilty and unworthy to try again.
Unlike the original meaning, when the religious person “sins’ he not only feels bad he missed the mark but adds the dimension of guilt where he feels unworthy to try again until a period of self loathing has passed and the feeling of guilt has lowered in intensity.
He who is without guilt can make a mistake and get right back in the game without the drawback of the self loathing feeling holding him back. Without guilt your feelings are governed by the reasoning mind.
May 28, 2012
The Body of God
Brian: I think the modern man also has greater faith in the intuitive realm. What I have difficulty with is ‘the order’ of things JJ mentions. For example, an intelligent God, “beyond time and space” is completely inconsistent with my concept of order. When humans reference the universe I think most of us mean ‘everything, everywhere’. (including God if one believes). So, how could there be something that is NOT EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE? If there’s something that’s external to EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE then, at the very least universe means something else.
JJ Your thinking is correct here. I have never said that God was not everywhere. Since the universe is created from the mind of God then God has to be present in it. The Life of God incarnates into the universe itself. The physical body of God is the universe.
However when the universe folds up then the body of the universe decays just as our dead physical bodies do. When matter as we know it no longer exists then there are no physical bodies for God or man to incarnate into.
When the universe is in existence then God incarnates into time and space. When the Universe folds up then God along with you and me live in formlessness apart from time and space. There is no time and space because time and space are not measured during pralaya. Time and space can only exist when there is measurement. However, time and space still exists as an idea. This idea is like an eternal seed that grows again and a new universe is born.
In the higher planes such as the atmic and beyond time and space exists as an idea but is not measured as happens here. Even so, the physical world, which is incarnated in time and space, exists along side the atmic plane. The Life of God exists in all the planes and is present through the entire universe. It is not separate from the universe.
Brian: The energy changes matter, within this universe, but NEVER changes the mass of this universe. JJ Mass does change. When energy is released a small amount of matter is changed to pure energy. For instance, the bomb at Hiroshima converted a couple grams of matter into pure energy that had no measureable mass.
Brian Ultimately, it is that “feeling” that “intuition” of which you speak, that allows me to KNOW there is something greater, HERE, NOW, part of EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE!
JJ Right on.
May 29, 2012
Examining the Great Mystery
JJ Quote: “But the question is not based on evolution or no evolution, but whether evolution takes place because it is guided by higher intelligence – just as computer programs evolve because they are improved through intelligent effort”
Johann You seem to think that there was no beginning or end to evolution, of either ourselves or God and God has to improve upon his own intelligence through becoming in and through form. There has to be a starting point of that evolution just as there was a starting point to the evolution of computers or when you are building a city or a house.
JJ There is a starting point to any individual creation and every cycle but there was never a starting point to creation itself or to cycles, neither was thee a starting point for the process of evolution. There is a starting point for each round of evolution.
As you say, there is a starting point for building a house but there is no starting point for life, which is eternal, in building or creating all kinds of things.
Johann: You state that there is no end or beginning to beginnings and endings. So you begin and finish putting in the windows before the walls are up. Or in other words, God was always super intelligent.
JJ Putting in the windows before the walls are up has nothing to do with anything I have taught. I have never advised anyone to work in this direction neither have I said God does.
This creation which God (of which we are a part) is in is just one of many from the past. This universe is a different challenge from any which was created before it and, no, He doesn’t yet consider Himself super intelligent in dealing with it. He is learning how to bring it to perfection. In creations of the past He evolved to what we consider super intelligence in dealing with his creations, but in this one He is learning and becoming.
Johann He must at some point been much dumber than your average rock and had to work himself up to the point he is now.
JJ It took a lot of intelligence on the part of God to create the first rock and there is tremendous intelligence built into it.
When this universe began, all of us along with God started as newly incarnated babes to learn from trial and error. As we learned a lot in past lives and bring with us earned intelligence from them even so the Life of God learned from past creations and brings His native intelligence to this one.
Johann But not according to your model for there is no beginning or end to the creator or to concrete beginnings and endings. Do I have to spell it out any further? This makes no sense at all. As I said, a proposition that does not make any sense and neither does the alternative, that there was a beginning or end to it.
JJ You say that no beginning and end makes no sense and neither does a beginning and an end. The trouble is you have to pick one because they both cannot be true. Either a thing is endless or it is not.
Everything that has form has a beginning and an end to that form. On the other hand, there is no beginning and end to the creation of form and here is why.
Let us suppose there was a beginning to the creative process. This would mean there was a beginning to cause and effect which is behind all creation. If there was a beginning to cause and effect this means that before the beginning there was no cause and effect.
As long as there exists anything at all in the universe there is cause and effect.
If there was at one time no cause and effect then nothing would have existed – no life or intelligence or matter – nothing.
If nothing existed and there was no cause and effect then this universe could have never been. We would not be here.
But… We are here.
Therefore, there was no beginning to cause and effect and creation. – though each creation has a beginning and an end to its form.
This universe is just one of an unlimited number of possibilities. It is built on a foundation of seven rays. The Life of God can create future universes on all kinds of different numbers and forms and go on forever without creating the same thing twice.
You are asking me to explain the greatest mystery there is, and it indeed boggles the mind to contemplate it but we can get a handle on some, but not all things.
Hope this helps.
May 30, 2012
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