What is the Soul?

11/12/1999

What is the Soul?

The Bible states that God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul.

On the other hand, the word soul is often used synonymously with Spirit, or that which leaves our body at death. Other teachers use it when referring to our Higher Self.

Soul, in a way is that point of oneness that many have referred to. Soul energy occurs when spirit interplays with matter. Thus when God placed Spirit in matter and there was interplay soul (or living soul) was the result. Soul is that point by the sea where land and water meet which is neither wet not dry, but where wet and dry interlay.

Our Higher Self as well as the Masters use the medium of soul as a means of communication with us. Thus when a disciple says he has received something through or from the soul it could be from either his higher self or a Master.

The internet is an imperfect correspondent to the soul. When we say we received something from the Internet you did not really receive it from the Internet. In reality the Internet is a medium with no form. You really received the information from another person through the medium of the Internet. In the same way a disciple is likely to say he receives from the soul when he really receives through the soul from some higher intelligence.

When a regular writer talks about the soul you must examine the context in which he uses it so you can follow his train of thought. As I said, soul is often used interchangeably with a number of things, but a spiritual internet medium is perhaps the most common used by disciples.

There are two main aspects of soul. The first is that spiritual medium that links us to higher lives. The second and not so well understood is the interplay between spirit and matter within the atomic lives who are so evolved on their own plane that they oscillate between spirit and matter and thus create the energy of soul that builds and maintains the forms for the greater lives. This knowledge will be expanded upon in the future.

Question: What is the best way to deal with problem children who seem to inherit negative patterns?

I believe that it is true that we pick up negative influences and programming – something like implanted hypnotic suggestions and they have a strong influence over many. Beyond traditional therapy, the way to overcome these influences is through mental development and then soul contact. The mind can learn to recognize negative influences and override them, but the soul can bypass them completely allowing the soul infused personality to live his life as if there is no past that can control voluntary action.

The short answer is that the best thing one can do with children is to guide them as close as possible toward the spiritual life.

Comments on Nations

Nations are great individual entities and are a lot like people and as such are responsible for their own destiny just as you and I are. It is true that some other nations attempt to influence them negatively just as other people try to influence you and I. Nevertheless, I do not blame anyone but myself for my mistakes. Nations also must take responsibility for whatever situation they find themselves in.

I’m sure that Russia and China are as nervous about the U.S. and NATO as we are about them. Therefore we should take action to increase stability.

If the people of a nation are willing to follow the path of least resistance which allows for totalitarianism then their consciousness will draw it to themselves no matter what form of government exists on paper. Thus, if they did not have communism as a totalitarian government they would have had some type of monarch or dictator which would have restricted freedoms in the same way.

There are some nations which have a democratic government on paper but in reality they have totalitarian dictatorships because their consciousness is not prepared for freedom.

At present I am concerned about the U.S., UK and Europe for their sense of freedom is being dumbed down creating a dangerous situation for ourselves. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I believe a representative or democratic form of government is a big leap forward over totalitarian regimes. Never in history has a stable democratic country made war with another one. Even though the U.S. irritates France and the French sometimes irritate us there is close to zero chance we will ever nuke each other. This would only be a danger if one of us had some type of dictator surface. Freedom respects freedom. Our nations are not perfect, but there is enough freedom to create stability between us.

I do believe that the United States Constitution is a light to the world, but this document also owes a great debt to England and France as well as some inspiration from Indian tribal government.

When my nation does something right, I will support them, and there are some things they do which is beneficial to the world. But when my nation goes in the wrong direction I will not support it just because I happen to live here.

As far as Hollywood goes. It is not all bad either. They gave us Yoda.

I stand by my statements on Russia and China. I did not call them evil, but dangerous. Russia is experimenting with democracy just as Germany was before World War II. They also have many political parties vying for leadership just as Germany did making it possible for a fringe group to take control as the Nazis did in Germany. If I remember right Hitler only received 23% of the vote. If a majority were required he could have never become chancellor.

China is dangerous because the leadership there would like to take Taiwan back by force if necessary. If this first aggression were to occur the leadership of both the U.S. and France may feel it necessary to go to war. Without a first aggression there would never be a second one. There is about a 50/50 chance China will make a first aggression here and that my friend is a dangerous situation.

All for one…

The fourth Ray is very strong in this group. This is the Ray governing the principle of harmony through conflict. This fourth ray along with the fifth governs humanity itself and is the primary ray influencing the whole of Planet Earth. This is one of the reasons that we humans have such difficulty escaping its influence. The goal of the Brotherhood at present is not to eliminate all conflicts, but to shift the center of conflict from the physical plane to the astral and mental. Once this is accomplished we will at least escape the danger of blowing ourselves up.

Nevertheless, in the coming age of peace, primary conflicts will be eliminated from the physical plane, but they will be intensified on higher planes. The interesting thought about all this will be that there will be some realization that harmony is derived from conflict and the lights of the race will see harmony as the end of all enlightened conflicts. Some of those who lack spiritual vision will wonder when all the peace is supposed to break out.

Nevertheless, if the age of peace unfolds as planned it will be a great improvement over what we have today.

Today many look back at Columbus and the early explorers, the founders of the U.S. Constitution and other innovative thinkers and find much fault with them because they did not seem to stand up for some of the things we consider today as “good.” But a 1000 years from now humanity will look back at us and wonder why we lived in such a veil of ignorance and followed the current beast with such non thinking obedience.

All historical initiates must be judged by the times they lived in just as it is hoped we will be.

Acceptance

Having a completely open and inclusive list such as this has it’s place, but having a true teaching situation where everyone wants to learn is also a positive thing. In order to have a positive situation where the concentration is on learning then others who wish only to teach and those who do not wish to learn must be excluded.

Exclusion is not always a bad thing. It also has it’s positive aspect.

When DK did his work through Alice A. Bailey he selected 50 students and excluded all the rest of the aspirants. Then when a student caused a problem he dropped them from the group. This was necessary for him to accomplish his work.

Nevertheless, to be inclusive to the highest possible degree is always the goal and for this cause I stay in this group and encourage openness to all. This prevents the exclusion of a true seeker who may be overlooked by an exclusive list.

On the other hand, those who merely seek to learn and don’t want to deal with conflict will have a place to go.

Copyright by J J Dewey

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Keys Posts 2012, Part 3

This entry is part 16 of 40 in the series 2012A

Feb 5, 2012

Is This a Man From Future?

 

Feb 7, 2012

Minority/Majority rule

LWK Almost all Utopian schemes imagine some alternative rational or scientific method of running society, but in the end they always end up with some group of people telling other people what to do.

 

JJ The big problem with utopian schemes is that free will is drastically limited from the planning stage. A free society is actually the best utopian scheme one could come up with. As long as freedom dominates living conditions will get better and better until we will have a virtual utopia.

 

Feb 10, 2012

JJ on Capitalism/Socialism

A number of people have speculated as to the Constitution of a future Zion, but we are a long way from having a need for a specific one so whatever we create now will probably undergo some changes when the time comes. Right now we can be a little like John Locke or Montesquieu and write about the principles that will govern future society in the hope that the best ideas will prevail. I am sure some of the items you list will be incorporated in some way. I think that what you said about juries having power to negate law would be particularly important to have in any future constitution because any law written is not perfect. I doubt if I will ever write an actual constitution for a future society but will most likely lay out some guiding principles that I hope to see

 

For food for thought here is a Constitution written by another LDS thinker, Joel Skousen.

 

Feb 10, 2012

Re: Force/Free Will

LWK writes: In Nazi Germany it was scientifically concluded that mental defectives should be eliminated. It was not an arbitrary decision, but rather a very scientific decision. Initially they put them in the back of closed trucks where the exhaust gas was forced into the closed area and drove around until they suffocated. Later on they came up with even more scientific methods.

 

JJ That’s one I have never heard before. Sadly this is a believable story when considering the Nazi mindset.

 

Feb 10, 2012

Re: Woodrow Wilson Quote and Fiat Money

Susan: I trust my connection to God and to think for myself. JJ is an earned authority for me in many areas. Perhaps it is ok with JJ for me to disagree and so I take the opportunity to speak my mind when something strikes me as important to a discussion. If you don’t like it, PLEASE delete it.

 

JJ I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me and voicing it here as long as they are civil. Some of my best writings have been in response to some challenge from members and some of the most trusted members here have voiced string disagreements with me at one time or another. Freedom of expression without fear of being condemned by the leader is one things that sets this group apart. Many teachers do not allow for disagreement. We do not want to take that route. As Larry indicated this creates some problems for the teacher, but that is okay with me. Better to have a living group than a stagnating one.

 

As far as disagreements with my writings on fiat money goes one of the main problems is my detractors lump all fiat money into one category whereas I place them in two categories:

 

(1) Fiat Money created by a third party through loans to the government and people at interest. This can create an unsustainable debt.

 

(2) Fiat money created by the representatives of the people tat has no interest and is not a loan.

 

I teach that this second category can become the best of all money systems as long as inflation is controlled.

 

For more information go here:

 

Or better yet read the whole series.

 

Feb 11, 2012

Re: The Galileo of Global Warming

 

This is one of the best articles I have read on global warming. I have said for some time that the mindset of he warmers will someday be equated with the consensus of the Vatican scientists who opposed Galileo.

 

Feb 11, 2012

And It Came to Pass

The other Ruth (Ruthangel) send me a cute post written in Biblical style by a minister’s wife.

 

AND IT CAME TO PASS

And it came to pass in the Age of Insanity that the people of the land called America, having lost their morals, their initiative, and their Will to defend their liberties, chose as their Supreme Leader that Person known as “The One.”

 

He emerged from the vapors with a message that had no meaning; but He Hypnotized the people telling them, “I am sent to save you.” My lack Of experience, my questionable ethics, my monstrous ego, and my Association with evil doers are of no consequence. I shall save you With hope and Change. Go, therefore, and proclaim throughout the Land that he who proceeded me is evil, that he has defiled the nation, And that all he has built must be destroyed.

 

And the people rejoiced, For even though they knew not what “The One” would do, he had promised that it was good; and they believed. And “The One” said “We live in the greatest country in the world. Help me change everything about it!” And the people said, “Hallelujah! Change is good!” Then He said, “We are going to tax the rich fat-cats.” And the People said “Sock it to them!” “And redistribute their wealth.” And the people said, “Show us the money!” And then he said, “Redistribution of wealth is good for everybody..”

 

And Joe the plumber asked, “Are you kidding me? You’re going to Steal my money and give it to the deadbeats??” And “The One”Ridiculed and taunted him, and Joe ‘s personal records were hacked and publicized. One lone reporter asked, “Isn’t that Marxist policy?” And she was Banished from the kingdom.

 

Then a citizen asked, “With no foreign relations experience and Having zero military experience or knowledge, how will you deal with Radical terrorists?” And “The One” said, “Simple. I shall sit with Them and talk with them and show them how nice we really are; And they Will forget that they ever wanted to kill us all!” And the people Said, “Hallelujah!! We are safe at last, and we can beat our weapons into free cars for the people!”

 

Then “The One” said “I shall give 95% of you lower taxes.” And one, Lone voice said, “But 40% of us don’t pay ANY taxes. ” So “The One” Said, “Then I shall give you some of the taxes the fat-cats pay!” And the people said, “Hallelujah! Show us the money!” Then “The One” said, “I shall tax your Capital Gains when you sell Your homes!” And the people yawned and the slumping housing market Collapsed. And He said. “I shall mandate employer-funded health care For every worker and raise the minimum wage. And I shall give every person unlimited healthcare and medicine and transportation to the Clinics.” (And no Muslim shall pay for their share of healthcare.) And the people said, “Give me some of that!” Then he said, “I shall penalize employers who ship jobs overseas.” And the people said, “Where’s my rebate check?”

 

Then “The One” said, “I shall bankrupt the coal industry and Electricity rates will skyrocket!” And the people said, “Coal is Dirty, coal is evil, no more coal! But we don’t care for that part about higher electric rates. “So “The One” said, Not to worry. If your rebate isn’t enough to cover your expenses, we shall bail you out. Just sign up with the ACORN and you troubles are over!” Then He said, “Illegal immigrants feel scorned and slighted. Let’s Grant them amnesty, Social Security, free education, free lunches, Free medical care, bilingual signs and guaranteed housing… ” And The people said, “Hallelujah!” and they made him king!

 

And so it came to pass that employers, facing spiraling costs And Ever-higher taxes, raised their prices and laid off workers. Others simply gave up and went out of business and the economy sank like unto a rock dropped from a cliff. The bank banking industry was destroyed. Manufacturing slowed to a crawl. And more of the people were without a means of support.

 

Then “The One” said, “I am the “the One”- The “Messiah” and I’m here to save you! We shall just print more money so everyone will have enough!” But our foreign trading partners said unto Him. “Wait a Minute. Your dollar is not worth a pile of camel dung! You will have to pay more… And “The One” said, “Wait a minute. That is unfair!!” And the world said, “Neither are these other idiotic programs you have embraced. Lo, you have become a socialist state and a second-rate power. Now you shall play by our rules!”

 

And the people cried out, “Alas, alas!! What have we done?” But yea, verily, it was too late. The people set upon The One and spat upon him and stoned him, and his name was dung. And the once mighty nation was no more; and the once proud people were without sustenance or shelter or hope. And the Change “The One” had given them was as like unto a poison that had destroyed them and like a whirlwind that consumed all that they had built.

 

And the people beat their chests in despair and cried out in anguish, “give us back our nation and our pride and our hope!!” But it was too late, and their homeland was no more.

 

Feb 14, 2012

Reflections on Inelia Benz

A couple days ago Kelly asked about Inelia Benz and this stirred up quite a lot of discussion so I thought I would make a few comments.

 

First I had to check out some of her teachings. I watched the video recommended by Alex and read the transcript of the video recommended by Kelly.

 

Her basic message is this. She incarnated to assist in raising the vibration of the people on this planet so we can effectively transition into a new age of peace.

 

I have no problem with this message as this is also one of the reasons I am here and I’m sure some members of the group feel it is a reason they are here also.

 

As long as she keeps this as her main goal and follows it to the highest she knows then I wish her Godspeed.

 

Whenever a teacher manifests before the public eye true seekers will always take a look with a mind open to the possibility that he or she may be an agent of light or a deceiver of the darkest dye – or someone in between.

 

Unless I receive some evidence to the contrary I take Inelia at her word that she is here to serve and assist humanity.

 

I am encouraged by the fact that she is a big believer in free will and expanding it. She presents a teaching that I have given that if we do not make decisions then someone else will be making them for us.

 

She presents several teachings to do not sound right to me.

 

She says there are an infinite number of parallel universes where each of us live in slightly different realities. For example, in Universe A there is a famous JJ and in Universe B there is one that is an unknown homeless guy. Then there’s another universe where I’m still with my first wife and never met Artie – my current wife – poor guy.

 

The point to consider here is that creation, especially the creation of a universe, takes a lot of effort and creators only put a lot of effort into creation when there is a significant purpose. I don’t see much purpose being served by the Creators in making infinite numbers universes with the same people doing just slightly different things. As it is, this one universe is vast enough to give the Life of God a chance to experience every possibility through the many trillions of lives in it. He doesn’t need a billion or so variations of me running around.

 

She tells us she is a unique being who has never incarnated into this universe before. She has no past lives but incarnated directly from the mind of God.

 

We always have to take into account that anything is possible but in my view the most likely truth is she has incarnated here many times but has reflected so strongly on God that she sees herself as an extension of Him in a way that others are not.

 

This teaching is the biggest red flag because even if she truly seeks to help others this may cause followers to see her as an outside source of God rather than looking within. This could cause her to become the Beast to her followers unless she does all in her power to teach them to rely on the inner God rather than the outer.

 

She says there are millions of others who are helping to raise the vibration of the planet but is not clear if there are others like her with no past lives who came directly from God. If she sees herself as a totally unique being she could be creating many glamours that will need to be dealt with as well as illusion.

 

Overall, she seems a pleasant person who is attempting to serve so I will not be overly concerned about her unless some good reason were to manifest.

 

She does have a course she sells for $99. Because of this some have accused her of being in the work for the money but every work does need t bring in some money.

 

Here are the ingredients in the course:

 

1. Unit One – An Introduction – Listen to the Introduction NOW. Spiritual Ascension Course Sample

2. Unit Two – Setting of Goals

3. Unit Three – Main Goals Exercise

4. Unit Four – Specific Goals Exercise

5. Unit Five – Detoxifying the Physical Body

6. Unit Six – Reconnecting with the Physical Body

7. Unit Seven – Physical Body Reconnection Exercise

8. Unit Eight – Healing the Ego

9. Unit Nine – Identifying and Embracing the Ego

10. Unit Ten – The Mental Body

11. Unit Eleven – Identifying the Mind

12. Unit Twelve – Silencing the Mind Through Breath Meditation

13. Unit Thirteen – The Emotional Body

14. Unit Fourteen – Healing the Emotional Body

15. Unit Fifteen – The Spiritual Body

16. Unit Sixteen – Identifying and Reconnecting with the Spiritual Body

17. Unit Seventeen – Aligning Our Bodies

18. Unit Eighteen – Expansion Of Awareness

19. Unit Nineteen – Expansion Of Awareness into Oneness

20. Bonus Unit Dealing with Sickness during Ascension Work

 

If anyone has taken or takes this course in the future I’m sure the group would be interested in a report.

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Keys Writings, Part 18

This entry is part 32 of 34 in the series 2011C

Nov 2, 2011
 Re: Morals and Legality

Blayne: Might does not make right or legal. That is essentially your argument;

JJ You’re only half right. I am saying that might does not make right, but might does create what is judged to be legal by Constitutional authorities.

Blayne: I wonder if the congress ever passed a law like I described that it was okay for congressmen and judges to rape any woman at will would that inspire the majority to stand up and say no that is illegal and even take up arms to enforce the majority will if necessary?

JJ They haven’t passed anything that outrageous but they have passed laws that so offended public consciousness that the people have forced change. The Kansas-Nebraska Act expanding slavery caused extreme outrage. The Jim Crow laws motivated Martin Luther king to lead millions of black and whites to support repealing them. Woman rebelled against the Constitution rejecting their right to vote as well as other laws preventing them from having control over their own property. Obamacare is certainly causing a lot of people to object and has fueled the Tea Party.

In Boise many years ago they passed a law that it is illegal to fish from a giraffe’s neck. That didn’t seem to have any teeth. I’m not sure if that was someone’s version of moral natural law or what.

Nov 3, 2011
Happy birthday Keysters

Last weekend marks the 13th anniversary of the Keys of Knowledge group. The group entity is now a teenager. Rick

JJ Time flies when you are having fun. I’m glad you nudged me into doing this ahead of my personal schedule.

Nov 3, 2011
Re: Morals and Legality

Using a definition of words that does not match the mainstream use changes nothing, but if we change the accepted laws which may not be just then we have accomplished something.

It doesn’t matter that much how words are defined. What matters is how we use those words to communicate.

LWK In our system a legislative act that passes the required steps is in fact the law unless challenged and overturned by the courts. I don’t see any other practical way to do it. One can say “illegal” all one wants but it is the law if passed unless challenged and overturned.

JJ I would guess that about 99% of the people would agree with you on this Larry s well as the Founding Fathers.

Blayne: Might does not make legal.

JJ Might has determined what is legal since the beginning of time. What makes you think otherwise????

Just because you or I think something should be doesn’t mean that’s the way it is.

Nov 3, 2011
Re: The First Point 101

Duke: I wonder which side they (the South) would have taken in World War Two, and whether that would have tipped the scales.

JJ There’s no way to know for sure but I would say there is at least a 50/50 chance they would have supported Germany. especially if they still had a grudge against the North and they were supporting the Allies.

Apologists think that slavery would have died a natural death within a few years, but I do not think so. The South was working to expand it to the West, Cuba and Central America. It was so embedded I don’t think they would have given it up without a fight.

Nov 4, 2011
 Re: Morals and Legality

Blayne: Not true people have also practiced right actions or what’s legal without being forced since the beginning of time too.

JJ What people practice has absolutely nothing to do with determining what is legal. Even the most virtuous of laws can only be made and enforced through the might of the government. If there is no penalty attached then the law has no power. I myself, virtuous guy that I am, would go over 40 MPH in most 20 MPH zones if it were not for a possible penalty.

Blayne: Just because some circumstance the way it is does not make it legal.

JJ Because you are attached to only one definition of legal (even though there are several in the dictionary) this makes it almost impossible to communicate with you about law. You stick to your extreme minority definition and will not speak the sane language as others do here concerning legality or see where they are coming from.

It is a fact that you ignore that the powers-that-be determine what is legal and not your own version of what is moral.. Thank God, for if we let everyone do that we could have slavery again for half the country used to think that was a natural right.

Blayne: According to your logic if the local Mafia forces you to pay protection money or be harmed that makes it legal. After all that is the way it is…

JJ I’ve already dealt with this reasoning. The Mafia has no constitutional power to make or enforce law. But if they did control the government then what they passed would be legal.

Nov 4, 2011
 Cool Topic

Perhaps I can illustrate the communication problem we have with Blayne on laws and legal if I illustrate with a different word. We’ll use the word “cool.”

Jim: That’s a cool song.

Bob: You’re wrong. Cool means a low temperature and a song has no temperature. It cannot be cool.

Jim: But there’s more than one definition of cool. I’m not talking about temperature. I’m saying that was a good song.

Bob: But cool, hot and cold can only be measured in degrees. A thing has to have natural form and mass to be cool. A song has neither.

Jim: You’re not listening. I’m not talking about cool as related to temperature but to the quality of a thing.

Bob: But cool is always related to temperature.

Jim: Where do you get that idea?

Bob: That was the original meaning. Any change of the meaning is just a corruption.

Jim sighs…

Even so, what is called natural moral law is as different from the legalities necessary to legally execute Awlaki as the two definitions of cool.

When I asked if it was legal I wasn’t asking if it conformed to your version of what is moral nor was I referencing anyone elses version of morality but merely a legality that would be accepted in a current court of law.

Nov 5, 2011
Conclusion

This Awlaki discussion has probably run its course. We could continue dissecting but the point has been made. And what was that?

Remember that we began this discussion to illustrate two things.

(1) How difficult it is to resolve communication problems through the Internet. It is bad enough in person but here the process is much slower and sometimes sluggish. The one advantage is we can access facts through the Internet and take the time to sift through them as the discussion moves forward.

(2) The difficulty in reaching union when there is a strong disagreement. When we attempt to create a molecule it is important we approach it realistically. By examining this disagreement and others in the past I think we can see what we are up against in getting a group of 24 or more to reach the union necessary to achieve group soul contact.

I was hoping to get this disagreement to the point where we could narrow the focus down to a principle so we could attempt to reach union through the soul, but we haven’t come close to this.

Instead we got stuck on the definition of words which is about a million miles from finding the principles involved. The soul has no interest whatsoever in how society determines their terms, but how words, however they are defined, are used in dealing with principles.

If you can get down to the principles involved in an argument two or more sensitive people can reach harmony through the soul.

The first molecule will have to be composed of people who have been tested in group activity and are in basic harmony with each other on core principles and attitude toward life.

Here is a brief assessment of the Anwar Al-Awlaki case.

Was the assassination legal? The evidence seems to indicate it was but there are dissenters. The ACLU is going to file a lawsuit and if it goes to trial a final legality will be decided.

Is Awlaki guilty of a crime?

There are enough of his own words and witnesses to his words to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he is an enemy to the United States and is likely guilty of treason.

Did Obama do the right thing in taking Awlaki out?

I think we should take out all the active enemies of this country that we can but the fact that he was an American citizen made the situation problematic and should have been handled differently. They should have first revoked his American citizenship, made the details of his crimes available to Congress and the people and then taken him out.

Nov 5, 2011
 Re: Blayne’s Blindspot

Blayne:  … as long as [The Constitution] is the law the federal government is supposed to follow it sure would be nice if they actually followed it…

LWK I absolutely agree with that idea.It is kind of useless to have a “law of the land” that in many instances is largely ignored or twisted in interpretation into something entirely different.

Perhaps this highlights a mistake that the Founders made. It was their intention to make it difficult to change the Constitution and therefore the amendment process is very difficult, and impeaching judges who largely ignore it is similarly difficult. It might have been easier for the government to adhere to a Constitution and replace errant judges who blatantly misinterpret it if it weren’t quite to hard to change in the first place.

JJ Good points Larry. If there is some law our representatives do not like they will just ignore it whether it be in the Constitution or some law passed through Congress. Illegal aliens is typical. There are plenty of laws on the books that would take care of the problem if enforced but their solution is to just create more laws.

There’s still a law saying we can’t fish from a giraffe’s neck here in Boise, but no one is stopping anyone from doing it. They are ignoring that law!

Nov 5, 2011
 Re: laissez faire thought experiment

Putting thieves and rapists in jail does not interfere with the workings of karma but enhances it. It secures the rights for those with good karma so they can live in freedom as they deserve. As far as payback for bad karma goes – if they can’t get it here there are hellholes like North Korea and Afghanistan reserved to take care of lots of negative karma various entities have accumulated.

The enhanced karma I was talking about is the good karma. That takes some law and order to secure for the just. There’s always plenty of opportunity for the bad guys to receive their just due – that is until Zion is established.

Natalie: When Zion is established what will happen to those “bad guys” who have not yet received their just due?

JJ As we move toward a more peaceable society with less violence and tyranny there will be fewer opportunities for those with a cruel or selfish nature to pay off their karma and many of these will not be able to incarnate. As a result of a better situation more people with good karma will incarnate causing society to improve.

Don’t worry about the bad guys though for they will eventually get another chance.

Nov 6, 2011
 Thoughts on Oneness

I’ve been contemplating the unresolved differences we have had lately and have some thoughts to share.

The question that might arise in these discussions, not only with Blayne, but others in the past is this.

How is it that any two sincere seekers cannot resolve their differences when both have had a degree of soul contact in the past?

The answer is this. The language of the soul is the language of principles. To resolve differences you have to distil away the non-essentials until you are left with the pure language of principles. It is then that differences can be resolved.

To understand this let us examine the principles involved in the argument that I (and others) have had with Blayne.

(1) The Principle of Freedom. This relates to decisions, actions, plans, procedures, laws, etc that bring the greatest amount of freedom to the largest possible number of people.

I believe that Blayne and I both heartily accept this principle.

(2) Laws are a branch under the Principle of Order, which are under the Principle of Creation. Just laws should therefore enhance order and creativity, or life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Some laws made and accepted by man conform to true principles and some do not.

(3) The Principle of Justice. I believe that both Blayne and I accept this and want it to prevail.

(4) The Principle of Judgment. Good judgment is necessary in the creating and application of law as they apply to humanity

I think that Blayne and I agree on these basic principles and if we had a discussion just dealing with them we would most likely be in harmony and open to group soul contact. So what causes the actual differences then?

The problem arises when we take our focus off true principles and put them on details that are not principles.

The biggest detail that has been a problem is the definition of “legal.”

The reason that arguing over definitions is a lost cause is that they have nothing to do with any of the principles of the argument. Instead, words can be used in any language with any definition to communicate true principles.  Communication of principles is not dependent on how words are defined. If it were one could never explain a principle in French or Spanish as all the words are different there.

Every time I have had an augment with someone who reverts to the dictionary or some other source to prove the meaning of words I know the argument is going nowhere.

On the other hand, every time that I have been in harmony with someone there is never a need to define a word to prove anything.

Why?

Because two people touching the soul together can understand each other and sense the meaning of the communication even if some of the words may not seem to be used exactly right.

When Jesus said “destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” his enemies thought he was referring to the temple in Jerusalem, but those closest to him knew he was speaking of his body.

When we are close to someone and tune into them then we will know what they mean even if they use words differently than we personally define them.

Now Blayne thinks a law is not legal if it does nor conform to the morality of natural law. That’s fine and I accept that he thinks this way.

The problem is the question was not related to this definition but to how the legal system of today defines legal. When a judge, police officer or attorney uses the word “legal” he means something different than Blayne does. Since Blayne does not seem to recognize legal by the common use today (and this is what the discussion was supposed to be about) we had a huge communication gap.

The gaps create the illusion that we disagree on principles when we do not.

Maybe I should have asked Blayne something like this. “Was Obama’s action legal as seen though this corrupt system where everything is going to hell in a handbasket?”

Maybe that would have worked.

Anyway the key to union is to tune into each other so true communication can be established.

Note to Duke: You asked a good question. I’ll deal with it shortly.

Nov 7, 2011
 The Two Definitions

Re: Jefferson’s inspiring wording

Larry, my friend. Your feelings seemed to be hurt over something. I don’t think that anyone had any intention of hurting you. All of us regulars seem to take turns being fiercely disagreed with at one time or another, but that does not mean that anyone is showing disrespect.

We want to have an atmosphere where all are free to speak their minds as long as they remain fairly civil.

As far as this problem with Jefferson and principles go, there seems to be some miscommunication going on. I don’t think we will disagree when we understand each other.

Dan quoted JJ, “He (JJ) says that Jefferson’s version is “true on the level that he meant to communicate them” (emotionally inspiring) and then winds it all up by saying Jefferson’s version is “more inspiring than the TECHNICAL TRUTH”.”

Larry Woods says,

JJ is inconsistent here.

JJ To be inconsistent I would have to teach one thing at one time and then something contrary another time. I do not see where this happened in anything you are referring to.

Larry ALL principles are pure and pristine on the intuitive plane. But when we bring them down to the three worlds of form they get messy.

JJ You’re making my point, though I would use the word “obscured,” or something to that effect. The person understanding a principle can put it in the clearest possible language yet there are still many that will not understand most of it. Principles are the language of the soul and can only be communicated in fullness through the soul.

Larry Dan points out that JJ offered two “real world” alternative wordings for Jefferson’s statement of the underlying principles of good law. Dan also points out that JJ said Jefferson was not technically correct because his famous Declaration wording does not cover all aspects of practical use (all the exceptions) where these principles run into messy problems in the worlds of form. However, the same can be said of ALL PRINCIPLES, including all the principles JJ teaches.

JJ Yes, just about all principles as taught to humankind are not technically, or literally, correct as taught by anyone. That is one of the weaknesses of human communication. This reality should not bother any seeker, but should encourage him to look to the soul of messages more than the exact meaning of the individual words.

Larry Using JJ’s technical correct doctrine that he applies to say Jefferson was wrong will shoot down everything that every human ever taught about higher truth.

JJ Where do you get such an idea? Words describing or using a principle merely point the way to truth, but rarely reveal the whole truth of a principle. I do not believe that Jefferson was wrong, but he was extremely correct in wording the Declaration the way he did. Sure he could have worded it differently and been more wordy to make sure he wasn’t misunderstood, but the soul of the message would have been lost.

Larry JJ seems to be saying that articulating ideal truth from the higher realm of Intuition is always incorrect because those truths always run into exceptions when expressed in the lower three worlds of form,

JJ You totally misunderstand me here as I have not in the past or the present said such things. There are no exceptions to truth as I have said many times, “the truth is true and nothing else is true.” There are no exceptions to principles. They are what they are.

What I have said there are exceptions to man made rules, laws, procedures and courses of action. One can never set a course that will be right all the time and a principle lies behind this interesting fact.

Larry it’s like he is saying truth is not technically correct.

JJ Where are you getting this? The way we all attempt to express truth is rarely technically correct but truth is technically correct. 2+2=4 and nothing else is the true answer. On the other hand, if I were to attempt to tell you tomorrow’s weather, the truth is, it would be a guess. My prediction would be subject to change.

Larry So I expect JJ will soon go back and reword everything he ever said about principles so he can get it “technically correct” enough to account for all the exceptions those principles run into when expressed down here in the real world.

JJ Again, where are you getting such thoughts? Certainly not from anything I have said. No, I’m not going to go back and reword everything I’ve said about principles. There are no exceptions to principles. For instance, if there is a cause then there is an effect – always.

A lot of what I have written about principles is not technically correct and it would be counterproductive to attempt to get them all technically correct because they are understood through the soul when the sensitive seeker is pointed in the direction of seeing the principle.

Larry: The question is, will JJ continue to discuss eternal principles while not allowing Jefferson to do the same?

JJ Wow, Larry, I’ve never seen you come to such strange conclusions before. What is going on in your mind?

Thomas Jefferson is free to come back from the dead and discuss all the principles he wants as are you. Why would you think otherwise?

Larry: Will JJ from now on qualify everything he ever says about words that do not pass away exposing all the exceptions they might ever run into in the real world so he can remain “technically correct”?

JJ You seem to think that I think it is important to always be technically correct because the subject has come up. Why would you think this? It may be important as far as legal matters go but it is not a big deal in teaching metaphysics. In teaching principles the important thing is to communicate the essence of things and paint a picture for the student.

When Jesus said, “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free,” he was not technically correct either, but he painted a picture that leads to principles and greater understanding. A book could be written on it, yet if one just reads it literally he will have little understanding.

The same is true of Jefferson’s words. His words are lost in the literal thinking of many but lead to soul truths for those who contemplate and see the bigger picture.

Larry: Is it true that eternal principles are not technically correct

JJ When a principle is seen and understood it is correct in every way. But we do not see the fullness of a principle through technically correct literal words. One must look through the eyes of the soul at the picture painted by the words.

Larry: Is there a “technically correct” principle out there that precludes the simple articulation of eternal truth unless you accompany it with many “real world” qualifiers? Let me try it. Jesus erred when he said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

JJ Again, Jesus was not technically correct but his words painted a picture of a principle which can lead to right human relations.

If one just goes by the literal meaning he could turn some friends into enemies.

Let us ay that I like someone to wake me at 6 AM every day. My wife, on the other hand, wants to sleep til 8 AM. Because I take Jesus literally I wake her at 6 AM. She is angry and I think: “The Golden Rule does not work.”

I would be wrong. It does work when the principle is seen. Waking my wife when I want to be awakened violates the principle, but seems literally correct.

Larry: One more thing, we have a masterful articulation of the principles of good government from Jefferson in the Declaration. Why would we ever want to say it fails the technically correct test?

JJ We had argued for days and a good portion of the argument was different understandings of Jefferson’s words. When something like this happens then this is the time to further analyze the words and attempt to see what is technically correct as well as the principles involved. If we do nothing then there is no chance of reaching agreement. If we attempt to clarify then there is a chance.

Larry: These words give us one of the very best opportunities where people let down their heart wall so that we can teach truth about law.

JJ The trouble was that Blayne and others had major disagreements about law with respect to Jefferson’s words so further analysis was necessary.

Larry Why would we want to cast it in a bad light?

JJ Again where did you get this notion??? No one cast anything Jefferson said in a bad light – especially me. I have nothing but praise for the Declaration of Independence. I don’t think it could have been worded better.

Larry: You like JJ’s new teaching about technically correct way of stating principles.

JJ There is no new or old teaching about being technically correct about stating principles. Often times it is not desirable.

Larry: Show us how this new rule works out when we post so we won’t have to get corrected for technical blunders as that blunderer Thomas did.

JJ No one said Jefferson blundered and there is no new rule. What’s got into you today? You usually understand me quite well.

Larry: Yea, I like this new method of discussing principles by always stating every exception we can cover all the bases and always recognize that stating actual principles is NEVER technically correct in our real world, plus we don’t have to worry about stepping on any toes. This will be great fun. I’m glad JJ advocates this whenever TJ speaks in the Declaration.

JJ Larry, you are totally misrepresenting me here. This is not like you.

Larry I’m also glad he will follow his own rule from now on

JJ There is no rule except in your mind.

Larry: because it will shed much light on how technically correct truth actually works out in our discussions about real life. I’m anxious to see what the KOK looks like from now on with Dan and Ruth policing everyone who breaks the rule or who expresses any questions about the rule, I’ll check in next year…

JJ Again, there is no rule and I hope your offense gets healed shortly so we can have the good ole positive Larry back.

Nov 7, 2011
 The Two Definitions

Principles (was Re: Jefferson’s inspiring wording)

Here are a few things I have written on principles.

Principles: What a principle is.

A fact is merely a piece of information that anyone can incorporate into their brain memory. It can likewise be programmed into a computer. A principle is a different matter. A principle is the underlying truth that makes all facts valid. It requires judgment to use and cannot be programmed into a computer.

For instance, the Constitution of the United States is built around the principle of the Free Agency of man. Around this principle has sprung the Constitution and thousands of books containing millions of facts. In the days of the foundation of this country there was only a handful of enlightened people who were able to understand the principle of freedom. People of a lower order could not see it. There was no way that King George from England could teach or enlighten George Washington in any degree on this principle even though he probably had as many facts in his head on the subject as Washington did. On the other hand, Washington could have done much to enlighten the King if he was willing to listen.

It takes a thousand facts to paint a clear picture of one principle, but the understanding of one principle reveals thousands of facts. It takes a certain point in the evolution of the human being to comprehend the difference between a principle and a fact but when he does, and learns to go within and touch the soul, then all the understanding and vision of a principle is revealed in a flash. Sometimes a book can be written about a principle revealed in one instant.

What is the difference between a principle and a law?

A principle is that which demonstrates the intelligence of God and makes things in the universe work toward a dominating good.

A law is a description of the working of a principle, or principles. By law I am referring to universal laws and not manmade rules.

If the law is accurately described then the perfection of God is made manifest because such a description shows the consistency of the principle and allows us to predict the future actions of the mind of God in the universe.

For instance, all form is held in place through the principle of magnetism which is an aspect of the principle of Love.

All the laws we have concerning gravity are produced by observing and describing this principle in action.

Within our souls is the capability of recognizing whether or not a thing is true. When a principle is spoken, you’ll feel within yourself the vibration of certain chords that ring true.

A principle is true yesterday, today and forever, but knowledge (as data) changes by the hour (the temperature for example). The language of the Holy Spirit is composed of principles, not data. To know all things in the language of the spirit is to know all principles.

True principles are always in effect all around us. The universe is built upon true principles, held together by them and will be dissolved by them. True principles govern our lives, our deaths, our relationships, our sorrow and our joys.

The bird flies making use of true principles, yet does not understand the principle of flight or realizes it exists. So it is with us. We live in a sea of principles, which governs all things, yet until we touch the soul we do not even realize what a principle is.

Many of the best authors touch upon a principle. Some have a sense of that which they have discovered, while others do not discern them from facts. Sometimes you can find a principle in a book written by an author that does not know what a principle is.

A principle is not created. A principle is always present and always works without beginning or end.

Take the principle of cause and effect. Was there ever a time that it did not work? Cause and effect has always been here and always will.

Take another principle:

**If there is no beginning there will be no end.

No one created this; it just exists past, present and future. Take a look at any true principle and you will see it had no creation, but just always is and always works and cannot be destroyed.

I think that truth, as a principle, is so abstract, that it needs its own “vehicle” in order to manifest. So, we have to speak of “knowledge of the truth” or “the light of truth”. When the light of truth is thrown on a conflict (illusion versus illusion), the illusion is swept away and the conflict vanishes.

A principle is an enunciation of what is. A principle isn’t made. A principle is eternal and it always is. Like Newton said, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. He discovered a principle. From that he was able to deduce a multitude of truths.

The truth that makes us free is found in the understanding of true principles.

The challenge for us to advance from facts and data to the language of principles and then, when a principle is understood, advance to a higher principle still.

There is a hierarchy of truth. The bottom of the hierarchy is truth manifesting on the physical plane. At the top of the hierarchy is the truth that there is One Great Life we call God. I am only stating God as a fact, a piece of data, because the principle behind God is a great mystery which has never been revealed.

As we advance from physical plane truth to truth on the higher planes, that which binds us is loosed and greater freedom is obtained.

A principle is true yesterday, today and forever, but knowledge (as data) changes by the hour (the temperature for example). The language of the Holy Spirit is composed of principles, not data. To know all things in the language of the spirit is to know all principles.

Let’s compare us to a slug. We don’t really know anything about the slug’s world but our knowledge is much higher than that of the slug. Just as we’re thinking on a much higher level so are the higher lives whose language is the language of principles where they can communicate principles, which is equal to thousands of pieces of data in one instant. They communicate without knowing anything about the data because they don’t need to know the data. They only need to know the principle. So when the principle is communicated by the higher lives, the lower type of knowledge isn’t even necessary but the lower type of knowledge can be discovered if it’s important for it to be discovered. When a principle is communicated to us we can translate that principle into a language we can understand by explaining it with a lot of data. The higher lives don’t have to do that.

Nov 9, 2011
 Re: OT: Proof that the devil is in the details

Duke: In 1289 Italian painter Giotto di Bondonne painted a series of frescos on the wall of the Basillica of St. Francis of Assissi. Hidden in the clouds of one is the face of a devil, which apparently went unnoticed for over seven centuries, up until very recently. Just goes to show that the old adage is indeed true: The devil really is in the details.

Link

JJ The fact that the presence of the devil was missed for 700 years really illustrates the principle that you find what you are looking for.

This link has closeups that are much easier to see:

Link

Nov 9, 2011
Law of Rebirth      

Natalie is attempting to create a group and expressed interest in having some type of lesson plan to teach from. I put together some basics years ago using a question and answer technique. Often just throwing one question at an audience can lead to quite a lot of discussion.

I’ll post a few of these lessons which all are free to use. Sooner or later I’ll add to them and fine tune them.

The first one is here:

Dan: If more advanced people are needed to form a molecule, it seems to me it might be useful to develop lesson plans that are more philosophical and not so scripture-centric in order to attract them.

JJ You are correct. I wrote these original lessons around 30 years ago when I was attempting to reach out to the Mormons and regular Christians. To expand their usefulness more cosmopolitan versions need to be written, which I plan to do. In the meantime these lessons will be useful in some circles.

Susan: Initiates of classes (class leaders) have the calling to create the lesson plans. It is not on JJ’s shoulders to spoon feed us everything. You are quite capable of developing lesson plans Dan if you truly feel called to have them. I have faith in you. 🙂

JJ Some teachers will need a little help and structure and others will want to put together their own lesson – maybe from material that I haven’t even covered. We want teachers to feel free to use their creativity. I think though that making lessons available will help some feel more confident in starting some classes.

Nov 11, 2011
Promising New Energy Source

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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Keys Writings, Part 17

This entry is part 31 of 34 in the series 2011C

Oct 29, 2011
Inertia

I never did comment on the principle behind pushing the boundaries as happens with children and some adults. The post was at:

Keys Post 54431

The Question: This is a branch of the real principle, which gives us an opportunity to do some discovery:

What is the real principle behind this Push the Boundary force and how it works?

We received a number of answers on this and I believe each person participating guessed a different principle. They couldn’t all be right could they?

Well, they all could be partially correct for many different principles are at play in everything we do, just as there are many parts to the elephant. As I said in my recent post – even scratching an itch has principles and forces at play.

On the other hand, there are some things that play out where a core principle is involved and this is one.

The core principle is inertia and I think the group will see this as I explain.

According to this principle an object in motion will stay in motion unless it is stopped by a force equal to that which is keeping it in motion.

Now when a kid gets his desires in motion for something he wants (like a new video game) the parent may at first dismiss the expressed desire and think that will be the end of it, but it often is not.

The kid has set his desires in motion, desires that have energy behind them, and the parent keeps getting hit with this energy time and time again. Finally, he gets worn down any buys the video game. The purchase is the counter force that neutralizes the energy of the kids inertia.

Another parent may not have money to buy the game and lash back at the kid with anger. If the anger has equal energy to the inertia of the desire then the kid will give up for the time being.

Many people visit salesperson thinking they are just going to look, but are not going to buy anything just yet. Then they wind up buying everything but the kitchen sink.

Why?

Because a good salesperson uses the principle of inertia. He throws desire energy at them again and again and if the customers find themselves moving in a current toward the dotted line and they do not counter with high resistance they follow the path of least resistance and will purchase. By the time that they have been hit with the power of inertia they may feel it is easier to spend a bundle of money rather than to resist.

Right now, president Obama is creating inertia behind his jobs bill. It could be the worst bill since the beginning of time but the appeal to jobs for those who are desperate is great. Since he is pitching this new stimulus again and again the inertia is building and can only be stopped by opposing forces. Some opposing forces have surfaced but some version of this is likely to get through unless the opposing force is increased.

Oct 29, 2011
Re: Definitions 1.1

LWK They (natural rights) could no more be taken away than one could take away the fact that men needed food to live – it was simply part of their “unalienable” nature.

JJ This made me think that maybe we should say the right to food is as natural of a right as the right to liberty. After all, if it came down to choosing to have food or liberty when one is starving to death, most would chose food.

Questions for the group: So, do we have a natural right to food?

Does one have a right to another’s food if the other guy has lots of it and you have none and are starving?

How about if the other guy has abundance and you are just surviving and often go to bed hungry?

How about if the other guy just eats a lot better than you can afford to?

LWK You stated that in your view that your meaning was the majority view of the meaning of “rights” and that somehow others should be obliged to state they are using a “minority” meaning. I personally do not agree with your interpretation.

JJ Well, I don’t exactly agree with that statement either. I said (or at least meant to say) that when speaking in legal terms the legal definition of rights is the one normally used and is used most of the time. I believe this is an accurate statement.

LWK It is doubtful that either meaning, legalistic or natural rights, is clearly predominant in how people use the word.

JJ This is true, but in speaking in legal terms legal rights is usually meant and the first point that I was arguing with Blayne was supposed to deal wit the question: Was it legal?

You made some excellent points in your post. Here is one I liked: “You don’t protect the rights of some by protecting the rights of others to attack them.”

Here is another: “There are many things the government does today that are much more likely to lead to a totalitarian government than killing terrorists instead of trying to bring them to trial.

“The most basic principle of natural rights is that one cannot claim their protection while violating the natural rights of others.”

JJ So true. If the execution of one man will save the natural rights of thousands then it is a good trade – proving the evidence backs up the action.

Oct 30, 2012 Election 2012 Blayne: I think Ron Paul is the only republican that can beat Obama but I doubt he can win the republican nomination.

JJ I don’t think Ron Paul would have a chance to win. Right now he scares the independents as much as Obama does but after the media was done with him he would be toast. They would research his old newsletters, writings and speeches and bring forth quotes that would blow a lot of people away and portray him as a racist who thinks the South was on the right side in the Civil War and Lincoln was a traitor and tyrant.

Also the fact that he would do nothing to prevent Iran from getting the nuclear bomb and seems unconcerned that it would send one over to Israel at the first opportunity would give the media the opportunity to portray Obama as the one who is on the side of national security – weak though he is in that department.

Oct 30, 2011
Infiltrating Mormonism,one sunday school class at a time

Adam’s Post My wife, Marnie, has gone through a re-think of Mormonism over the past several years, thanks to me and my experiences and readings, and, in turn, her own experiences and readings. Often now, when she hears or reads some “Mormon speak” in a family or church setting, she cringes. She’s fond of telling me that I’ve “ruined” her. We both, of course, feel very grateful for JJ’s teachings and the “ruin” the teachings have caused us.

Marnie still takes our children to church for the social aspect and to give them some exposure to spiritual teachings and the family culture. Occasionally, Marnie is asked to substitute teach for one of our children’s Sunday school classes, as happened a few weeks ago.

The lesson was on “being pure” – this for a bunch of six year olds. It’s amazing what we don’t see when we’re firmly entrenched in thought forms, reinforced by a strong culture. The lesson suggested that the teacher use salt and pepper to illustrate personal purity and impurity – again, this to a bunch of six year olds. The lesson emphasized a lot of guilt and unworthiness. Marnie didn’t care for the message, the examples, and the way it was taught, especially given the young audience. [Yes, the church does a lot of good and teaches a few nice things, but other such ridiculous teachings are not flukes or aberrations. A while back Marnie listened to the Primary President read from Malachi to about 50 children. She told them that those who do not pay tithing will burn! – yes, in so many words and with that emphasis. And many other examples there are. Many of you I’m sure are familiar with such ridiculous and often harmful things that go on in what is supposed to be an educational and spiritual environment.]

Anyway, my wife didn’t like the lesson, so, God bless her, of her own volition, without my prompting or consultation, she changed it. She got out some darts and a target and used JJ’s teaching about Hamartano (I know JJ is not the only person to teach this, but JJ’s writings are where we first heard the true definition and analogy to shooting an arrow at a target) Needless to say, the lesson was a hit (yes, punned) with the kids. Aside from being fun and entertaining, the six year olds actually “got it” and they gave Marnie insightful feedback, like: “Oh, that makes sense. If we make mistakes we just try again. We practice doing better. Practice makes perfect” and so on. A much healthier message, no? A better message than: “when you sin, you are impure, like little black spots before God; and all of the accompanying thoughts of unworthiness and guilt that are likely to be imagined by impressionable and innocent minds.

A small success. But much more doable, since we can’t all go around dusting our feet to general authorities, much as I would like.

But, the small success didn’t end there. Marnie’s mother happened to be teaching the same lesson this week to the six year olds in her congregation. Her mother’s printer wasn’t working, so Marnie downloaded and printed the lesson for her. When her mother came by to pick it up, they started discussing the lesson. Marnie mentioned that she had taught it a few weeks back. She expressed to her mother that she didn’t care for the way the lesson was taught, especially for that kind of an audience. Her mother, a very orthodox Mormon, actually could see what Marnie was saying about the lesson’s poor wording, conceptualization, and analogies. Marnie told her mother what she had done and how successful it had been. Marnie’s mother “loved it.” (Can you imagine how amused/pleased I am as I listen to Marnie repeat the conversation?) “Where did you get that idea?” her mother asked. “That’s a fantastic way to teach about sin. I’m going to use that idea instead.” That’s probably about as far as Marnie could safely go with her mother. I guess we’ll never know whether her mother would have taught the lesson or not, had Marnie revealed her source:)

Truth can actually resonate when it’s not being filtered through pre-existing biases and belief. Truth can actually resonate when it’s not being filtered through pre-existing biases and belief. Oh, what…wait..what?

How we’d love to actually tell her mother where that teaching came from, but that might ruin it and halt further use of the analogy.

Another success. A few more kids who weren’t bludgeoned and burdened with guilt ridden propaganda, for an hour anyway. One Sunday school class at a time. Maybe Marnie’s mom will share with another orthodox adult who will unwittingly teach truth, as taught by an excommunicated apostate. Classic. Had to share.

Thank you for ruining us, JJ.

Adam and Marnie

JJ Thanks for the encouraging letter Adam. What you say illustrates the power of the enunciation of true principles. A teacher may receive some light and do his best to promote it and die unrecognized, but if he has followed the highest he knows some seeds will be planted and the tiniest of seeds will grow to great plants and multiply until all of humanity will some day realize the true reality. You planted a seed in your wife and your wife in her mother and the kids. Some will take that seed and plant it in others until the day comes that the apostles of the church will be talking about shooting arrows a targets until we become proficient in the paths of righteousness. Who knows, that apostle might be one of the kids taught by your wife.

Oct 31, 2011
Right to Food

Blayne: I know that JJ argues from a perspective that rights don’t really exist (Correct me if I am wrong JJ) based on his previous writings except as created and or secured by men through their individual or collective actions.

JJ To just jumble natural and legal rights together as “rights” does not accurately portray what I think. If you would have said “legal rights” you would have been correct for this was what I was talking about in relation to Awlaki. You have been talking about natural rights, a different animal, which didn’t have anything to do with my question: Was it legal?

I think we agree that it is a built in desire to want to secure life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

JJ (Previous Post) … maybe we should say the right to food is as natural of a right as the right to liberty.

LWK One could say this if one had absolutely no understanding of the concept of natural rights, and many have indeed reached this conclusion.

JJ I think I have as good of an idea of what natural rights are as you or the next guy. Let’s go by your own words. <>

Are you thinking that I was suggesting a natural right to food would mean that someone else should be forced to work to provide another with food? Where did you get such an idea??? I said nothing to indicate anything like this.

Here is how I defined a natural right, which harmonizes with the Declaration of Independence:

“That which one has a moral claim or desire to have or express.”

This definition does nothing to imply a socialistic form of government to distribute food as you imply. But the desire for food is connected with the desire for life itself and is a natural desire and just as one feels he is morally justified to live and pursue liberty and happiness all feel that that have a moral justification to obtain food to stay alive.

Not all feel they are morally justified in stealing food or forcing others to supply it to them but as long as there is an abundant supply of it, all feel morally justified in having an opportunity to honestly obtain it.

Connected with fulfilling this natural right is a natural desire to assist others in obtaining food that some, through no fault of their own, cannot obtain for themselves. These include children, babies, the disabled and the down and out who are willing to work. It is especially a natural desire to work to earn the money to feed our own children who cannot take care of themselves and it is natural for the child to expect the parent through free will to supply its needs that it can not supply for itself.

This has nothing to do with socialism, but with natural desire from our Creator as written by Jefferson.

LWK Natural rights are simply the right to exercise one’s free will without interference by others or the government.

JJ But life is spoken of as the first natural right and this exists for us whether we exercise will or not. The desire for both life and food are very similar as they exist no matter what we will and no matter what the government does and we all feel that we have a right to live and a right to eat so we can continue this right to live.

In a decent society there would be enough people who have empathy for these rights so they will share of their of own free will and all would have enough to eat to sustain their lives.

Question to the group: Does this make sense? If not why?

Oct 31, 2011
Re: Election 2012

Blayne on Ron Paul: Rasmussen did a poll recently and he was virtually tied with Obama.

JJ Some polls indicate he has a fighting chance, but this is before the media has taken sides in the general election. Right now the major media leave Ron Paul alone because they are happy to see him be a voice of opposition to many Republican policies they loath. It would be much different if he were the nominee and and was running against Boy Wonder.

Blayne: All the stuff you have brought up has already been aired in the media over and over and he still has more independents and growing. I doubt it or the Iran thing would hurt him.

JJ Where has it been aired – Alex Jones? I haven’t seen the media do any investigative reporting on Paul’s past. There’s also little about it on his site. You have to do some digging to find some of his early writings and many of them are said to be lost and many of the extant ones are controversial. BUT if he were the nominee I’m sure some of the lost ones would surface. They came out with more critical stuff on Rick Perry or Sarah Palin one one week than that have in Paul’s entire life.

Blayne: Israel has over 300 nuclear weapons they will take care of Iran if they ever became that threat just like they took care of the Iraq’s nuclear program.

JJ Iran has learned from Iraq and have secured their nuclear program much better than Iraq did. They do not care if Israel has a million nuclear warheads because they do not think they will do a first nuclear strike as all nations would turn against them. On the other hand, if they get just one or more bombs they are willing to take their chances and attack for the glory of destroying Israel. Unless there is a change in leadership we are headed for trouble there. Paul is dead wrong to not be concerned – maybe millions of dead wrongs.

Oct 31, 2011
Re: Right to Food

I would be interested in a definition of natural rights as defined by you and Blayne – in a paragraph.. In the definition that I came up with I am not going by how the strict Constitutionalists have conjured it up but by how Jefferson and the Founders seemed to understand the term “rights” in the Declaration. I think Dan has a point that it is questionable that the term natural rights, as used, is even justified. But since it is used, even in an ephemeral way, then we must acknowledge it is one of the established uses.

I would refine my definition a bit to make it more accurate. Here it is:

“That which humanity, as a whole, has a moral claim or desire to have or express.”

Previous wording:

“That which one has a moral claim or desire to have or express.”

Nov 1, 2011
Steve Job’s Last Words

Just before his death Steve looked at his sister Patty, then at his children, then his wife and next he seemed to look beyond them at empty space and said these words:

Oh Wow! Oh Wow! OH WOW!!!

Then he passed over, apparently going to the place he was seeing.

Jobs Last Words

Nov 2, 2011
Re: Gathering Data

We finally get don to the nitty gritty of this issue that the group wanted me to continue and no one has responded. Let me repeat the question:

Is there enough evidence to establish Awlaki’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?

Google the name Awlaki with key words such as legal, terrorist, innocent, guilty, analysis, justified, unjustified and whatever you think helpful.

Then post the reasons he may or may not be guilty of either terrorism or treason. When we get them all tabulated then the group will judge the quality of Obama’s decision.

I’ll start the ball rolling by posting one for and against.

Reasons for being not guilty. 1. He is an American citizen and innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Reasons for guilt. 1. The underwear bomber, Umar Farouk, who tried to being down an airliner, stated this under oath at his trial: “I was greatly inspired to participate in jihad by the lectures of the great and rightly guided mujahedeen who is alive, Sheikh Anwar al-Awlaki, may Allah preserve him and his family and give them victory, Amen, and Allah knows best.”

See if you can find some positives and negatives to add to the list.

Nov 2, 2011
Morals and Legality

Question from JJ to Blayne: Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between legal rights and natural rights?

Blayne: No because anything that violates natural rights cannot be legal. Laws seek to illustrate morality and ethics.

JJ You have clarified here where the source of our disagreement is on the first point. You think a law has to fit in with your personal view of what is a moral natural right or it is flat out illegal and we can ignore it or break it at will.

Thus you consider a law as non-existent if you do not think it is moral, even if you are arrested, convicted and sent to jail by a process that has Constitutional authority.

The problem with attempting live by this belief is that there are lots of laws that others think are moral who could cause you untold grief – as they did with my friend Wayne. Wayne thought a lot of the laws were unconstitutional and immoral but he never thought they were not legal under our current system. He tried to live by what he thought the laws should be. Since he believed it was wrong for them to require him to get a drivers license then he did not get one and was arrested regularly. This cost him many thousands of dollars and several prison sentences.

I tried to reason with him many times concerning this because his beliefs were definitely affecting the quality of his life. My reasoning went something like this;

“Look, no matter what system we are under, none of us will agree with all the laws and regulations. If you violate and fight every law you disagree with that’s all you will be doing and thinking about and it will consume your life. And this struggle you have with the law doesn’t just hurt you but disrupts your business and affects the money your dozen employees make. Then you suffer from depression and this regular hassle with the law can’t help that at all.

“Sometimes in life there are two paths and neither choice may be what we want. You have the choice of a minor inconvenience of getting a license or not getting one and suffering a huge inconvenience. Which choice makes the most sense? You have to pick your battles and you’ve picked one here you can’t win. The State is not going to discontinue driver’s licenses because of anything you do, neither will the city discontinue building codes. Why don’t you concentrate your energy on something that will make a difference?”

It didn’t matter what I said to him. He wanted to stick to his principles – principles that most of his friends could not relate to or see much purpose therein.

When he died of heart failure he also had a large tumor on the back of his neck. It seemed to be a symbol of his thinking that he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. Perhaps his soul was trying to yell him to release that weight and smell the roses along the path instead.

Anyway, if you have an attitude that any law (regulation or whatever you call them) you do not consider moral is something you can break or ignore because they really do not exist then you are even going beyond what Wayne thought and if you stand by these beliefs you could be headed for an equal amount or more trouble. In fact, you have already mentioned that you and others who believe as you do have suffered painful experiences through the court system. I suspect that you could write a book about your legal battles.

The trouble with ignoring what the system says is legal and only obeying laws that only fit your own version of morality is you not only suffer untold inconvenience that interferes with regular life, but your version of what conforms to natural law may be different from the next guy who believes in natural rights – like myself.

“But,” says the Fundamentalist, “the Constitution is clear and it is plain as he nose on your face what natural rights are. All we have to do is follow the obvious.”

Think so? If this is so then why are there disagreements here on the Keys between, not only liberals and conservatives, but strong libertarians that support he Constitution and principles of freedom?

Why did some of the Founding Fathers and half the country before the Civil War think that keeping slaves was a moral natural right? Many southerners thought they were doing the moral thing by keeping slaves. They believed that:

(1) Blacks were of low intelligence and needed the whites to help then advance. Slavery was good because it provided that opportunity.

(2) Slavery also enhanced their own natural right of liberty because the slaves increased prosperity and gave the owners more free time to pursue culture and their own happiness.

Now keep in mind that this was not just a small fringe as with some fundamentalist beliefs today but held by enough people to divide the entire country.

The bottom line is this. If millions of individuals can decide, by their own version of what is right, which laws they want to keep then we would have total anarchy in this country. Secondly, no system, no matter how perfect, will make everyone happy and all will have to conform to a few things they do not like to make it work.

It seems logical that the best course is to cooperate with the system unless something totally outrageous is demanded. In this case, one can lead the cause of civil disobedience and many will follow giving the possibility of actual success.

If one sees a path to improvement that others do not then he should seek to educate. The informed majority will generally pick the right path.

Your personal definition of legal and tying it to your version of natural rights causes you to not even consider that Obama could have acted legally in any way even if every constitutional authority on the planet says he did. This narrow view has caused you to not even considering answering my question in the spirit that as intended as everyone else clearly saw. I was talking about legal as it is considered by the authorities in our legal system, not your view of what is moral and that should have been extremely obvious.

But even after I have clearly explained what I mean by legal you refuse to go by the majority definition and cooperate and answer the question.

You seem to think that using a dictionary definition of something violates some principle. It does not. A definition is just what it is, and nothing more. It is a neutral thing, but one must go by definitions as understood by others or nothing will make sense to anyone and communication will be muddled.

Nov 2, 2011
Re: Right to Food

Larry W I want to discuss the practicality of Jefferson’s theory of rights which he articulated in the Declaration. JJ has said that it is an obscure use of the definition of rights and has little to do with the common man nor with common usage of the word, rights. But I disagree.

JJ I can’t find anything you said that disagrees with anything I actually said. You seem to be arguing with what I do not even think.

First I said that Blayne and literal fundamentalist have an obscure and unusual definition of rights – see my last post. I have no problem with the way Jefferson actually articulated them.

Larry: “…and has little to do with the common man…”

JJ Where did you get this idea??? The rights enunciated in the Declaration of Independence have everything to do with the common man. I have said nothing contrary to this that I recall.

Larry: “…nor with common usage of the word, rights”

JJ That’s not what I said. I said that not all laws we have today that are considered legal are the same as as natural rights or that which Jefferson considered to be moral. Not everything in the legal system is in harmony with natural rights.

Nothing you said is out of harmony with anything I have written that I can see yet you present it as a disagreement. Disagreeing with what?

Nov 2, 2011
Re: Gathering Data

I think you’re missing the reason we are doing this. We care listing things in his favor and not in his favor as to whether he is guilty of treason, terrorism, subversion, etc. I doubt if any one thing will be absolute proof one way or another. When the list is complete then the group will make a judgement. How about contributing a point?

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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Keys Writings, Part 16

This entry is part 30 of 34 in the series 2011C

Oct 27, 2011
Definitions
Blayne and I have about exhausted ourselves going round and round on the first point of our discussion concerning the hit on Awlaki. It is time to ask what the root cause of the disagreement is.

One of the main problems in our communications is that we are using different definitions of core words.

I always use the most standard or obvious meanings of words unless I define them otherwise in my writings. Many people do not do this, especially those who have been immersed in some school of thought with a strong point of view. Such people often use their pet words with unorthodox meanings without explaining they are using non-standard definitions.

There are two words that have been interfering with our communication.

The first is “Right.”

Blayne thinks that the noun or legal “right” is similar in meaning to the word when it is used as an adjective or adverb. In other words you have a right to do a thing if it is right, moral and of good report.

He thus sees himself as having a right to own a gun because it is a good thing that we have the freedom to bear arms.

It is good that we have free speech therefore it is our right, even if it was not granted by the constitution or by any law.

The trouble with using this definition is that following it can get such a believer in trouble.

My friend Wayne went by this definition and thought it was right, moral and good that he should be able to drive without a license. Therefore, he thought he had “the right” to do so and went ahead and did it. This bullheadedness on his part brought him a tremendous amount of grief and expense. He was arrested regularly and several times spent time in jail. Not only me and my wife, but numerous friends tried talking him into getting a license, arguing that it would make his life so much easier. Unfortunately, he thought it was his right to drive without a license because it was immoral for the State to decree otherwise.

Wayne also thought it was his right to not pay income taxes. Because the tax was immoral in his eyes he just did not pay for about 40 years of his life. He would get calls every few years from the IRS but he told them that if they came to his door he would be waiting with a shotgun. Amazingly, that seemed to keep them at bay until he died.

He didn’t have such good luck with the city though. He put up some buildings on his property without building permits and the city fined him on a monthly basis. Again when the city threatened other action he told them he would be waiting with a shotgun and that seemed to physically hold them off but he had so many liens slapped on his property I don’t think his daughter got a penny of inheritance at his death.

I could write a book about Wayne’s unusual ways. I left out a lot of good stuff about him in The Immortal because I didn’t want to offend him or get him in trouble, but now he’s passed that won’t be such a concern.

Anyway, Wayne seemed to look at rights the same way Blayne does and it led to all kinds of trouble and possibly an early death. He wasn’t very happy with his life and didn’t even want a long life.

When I have been speaking of rights I have used he common definition which is, “legal authority.” If I have a legal right to do something then I will not live in fear of being arrested. We have the right to free speech and even have the right to criticize the president legally.

In North Korea they do not have that right and would be arrested if citizens criticize their Dear Leader there.

The second word Blayne and I are having a problem with is “legal.” Again I use the common definition that the dictionary says is something “allowed by law.”

On the other hand, Blayne associates legal with morality and feels that if something is illegal it is immoral. On the other hand, moral things are legal. Therefore, if he is doing good works and seems to be harming no one then he is always legal even if the cops and judges say he is breaking the law.

Judy suggested that Blayne use a term more in harmony with our legal system to enhance communication.

That would be helpful but we have probably gone as far as possible with the communication barriers we have. Blayne simply thinks that killing Awlaki was not legal and a violation of rights because it was immoral plain and simple.

It is difficult to turn around a person’s value judgments. For instance, I love my kids and no one is going to talk me out of this no matter what facts they present.

I think the rest of the group are pretty much in agreement on the Awlaki situation but we’ll proceed anyway and see what happens.

Oct 27, 2011
Definitions 1.1

This idea of there being a “right” definition or meaning to words that have multiple dictionary definitions is entirely on the wrong track for resolving our communication problems here.

Is there a right definition to the word cool? If I call someone a “cool dude” am I wrong because cool means a low temperature and therefore I am really saying that his body is cool?

That’s silly.

A word has the meaning that has been assigned to it in the context of speaking or writing it and that context is normally one of the definitions in the dictionary. If it is not clearly defined in the dictionary or is a minority definition then the communicator should explain what he means in using the word.

For instance I have used the word “purpose” with a different meaning than found in the dictionary but I went to significant lengths to explain what I mean so communication would not be confusing.

When I communicate I generally use the most common dictionary definition. If I do not do this then the context should indicate the definition used. If the context does not make it clear which definition is being used them I attempt to clarify, something that all good writers should do – if they want to be clear.

The word “right” has been defined in a number of different ways. None of them are right or wrong. They are what they are – the meanings that mortal man has assigned to them.

The most common definition of “a right” in connection with law is “legal authority” or authority from someone that has power over our lives. This is the way the word is used probably 90% of the time so if a person uses the word with some other meaning he should make it clear in the beginning that he is using a minority meaning.

Examples of majority use:

A family has a picnic in the park and are enjoying themselves when the governor arrives with a police escort. The police order the family to move because the governor needs their location for a photo op.

The family says, “We have the right to be here and stay here.”

They are not talking about some God-given theoretical right, but a legal right that would prevail in court.

Another family pitches a tent in a city park and decides to live there. A cop appears and chases them off declaring that they have no right to do this. Now a small minority may think that all people have a right to use public land however they please (think Wall Street Protesters) but most would not argue with the cop’s use of right as legal authority as being appropriate.

In common people have no problem with the use of this word as most use the word according to the common definition.

Even the Constitution seems to use the word “right” in connection with legal authority. The sixth Amendment says the accused has:

“the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law.”

Nothing in natural law or God’s law talks about a speedy trial which shall be held in a district which “shall have been previously ascertained BY LAW.”

The words “by law” does not refer to any God established moral law but law created by the legal authority or the Powers-That-Be.

The Constitution talks about the right to vote and the age, sex and race that can vote. These have changed over the years indicating that they were generally using the common definition of rights – not rights as an eternal moral thing that changes not.

So where has this idea of eternal God-given unchangeable rights emerged then?

This confusion over rights is mainly due to Jefferson’s beautiful poetic words in the Declaration of Independence. There he used poetic and creative license with his words to create an inspiring document.

I may have used the same choice of words myself in that situation for I heartily agree with the spirit of his words, but when we look the literal meaning we see that it is not technically correct.

The confusion comes mainly from this phrase:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

“Unalienable” means “that which cannot be given or taken away.” It thus becomes problematic that all three of these, “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” can be taken away. A Tyrant, such as Kim Jong Ill has full power (a right in his own mind) to take all three away from his subject at a moment’s notice.

Obviously Jefferson was not saying that all people have the right or full power over their lives liberty and happiness, but it is self evident that we have the moral right. The moral right to these things cannot generally be taken away, but even here there one can throw up exceptions.

Suppose part of your pursuit of happiness is sexually abusing little kids. In this case the pursuit of happiness should be put to a screeching halt.

The spirit of Jefferson’s document is terrific but one could dissect it and find many shades of meaning and flaws.

The biggest problem it has created is that it has lead to Constitutional fundamentalists to use the word “right” in sort of an odd and esoteric sort of way that those outside of their group do not relate to accurately.

Constitutional fundamentalists have a perfect moral and legal right to use their slant of meaning when using the word

right” in connection with legal matters but they need to do two things.

(1) Since many will not fully understand their meaning they should explain their terms when speaking to people not connected with their thought form.

(2) If they do not explain their terms then they should use the common meaning that the person they are talking with will understand.

I have often found myself in a situation where the person I am talking to uses a word meaning in a way that I rarely do. I realize that if I use the word as I normally do that confusion will be created so I do one of two things. I either use the word as he seems to be defining it, or just tell him I attach a different meaning to the word and explain it to him.

Many senseless arguments are created because people do not do one of these two things but just proceed using a minority definition that they expect others to absorb by osmosis.

This reminds of a time way back in 1970 when I was desperate and took a job selling vacuum cleaners. The company presented the idea that their machine was so superior to other vacuum cleaners that we were forbidden to use that obsolete word to even describe it. If we were caught calling our machine a vacuum cleaner we were either disciplined or fired. It was just a “cleaner” and that was it.

On the other hand it was fine that we call any other vacuum cleaner as such but the word was always used despairingly by the staff.

This caused a problem for the salesmen for sometimes we had to take a significant amount of time explain why the machine wasn’t a vacuum cleaner.

Did we expect customers to understand without explanation that our machine was not a vacuum cleaner? Of course not. (Actually, it was a vacuum cleaner)

Even so, when a person uses a minority definition of a word in a conversation he needs to make sure the other person is aware of his meaning. The two need to agree as to the meaning of the various words or their argument will continue ad infinitum.

When an argument descends to being centered over definitions of words then real communication has generally been lost.

Oct 27, 2011

Re: Definitions 1.1

Larry W. I use Jefferson’s definition of the word, rights, and I’m sticking to it.

JJ There is more than one definition and I accept them all. Don’t you? Often his use just doesn’t apply to the term. How do you use it then?

Larry The fact that people watered it down has caused us to lose Jefferson’s high ideals.

JJ I don’t think they are watered down at all but his definition is just not practical in the common vernacular. If a person says, “I have a right to this seat because I was here first,” – that doesn’t have much to do with rights from God, but customs of man and that is naturally how the term “rights” is used most of the time.

Larry His definition teaches us a lot about the ideals of freedom. I would like to encourage everyone to return the high ideal that rights can be defined by who created them.

JJ The problem is that neither Jefferson or the writers of the Constitution defined what they meant by rights in the documents. The declaration gives one slant on their use and the Constitution another – a more orthodox one.

Larry Let me say that again, “…defined by who created them.” Human rights come from God, legal rights come from government.

JJ And whose version of God do we go by – Christians, Mohammeds, Hindus??? Which spokesman for God is there that we can trust to reveal the mind of God on rights.

Jefferson talked about Nature’s God and rights that feel natural to man. These are indeed rights we should pursue, but there are legal rights also which are a different animal.

Again, rights are merely what someone defined them to be and right now there are several dictionary definitions and they are all valid and can be accurately used.

Larry: Besides, I thought this already was the mainstream definition – coming directly from America’s founding document as it does.

JJ Which founding document? The declaration gives one slant on rights and the Constitution another. They both have their place. Maybe one out of 20 times you see term “rights” (apart from right and wrong) is it used as Jefferson did.

Larry Finally, I have found it to be one of the best teaching tools I ever ran across for teaching the respectful and harmless principles of law. Since most everyone already reveres the Declaration, they accept these ideas directly from it quite readily. It’s not only a clear definition, defining rights by who creates them, but it also clearly shows the difference between eternal principles compared to manmade law. Why fight it, JJ? It’s a good thing. Join it.

JJ What gives you the idea I am fighting anything??? I’ve already praised Jefferson’s use of words. This doesn’t mean that “a right” doesn’t have several definitions and the most common use of the term today is not the one Jefferson was using. If I tell my wife that “I have the right to pick which show we see next” I am not in any way thinking of the Declaration of Independence – even though it would be a righteous thing to dwell more upon the document.

Oct 28, 2011
Re: Definitions 1.1

Larry Woods says, of course. Tom (Thomas Jefferson) and I define the word by WHO creates it. This parses the context for us very neatly. As I said and as Tom demonstrated, human rights come from God, who created humans.

JJ The trouble is that God has never spoken to us and told us what he means by rights or what he considers to be a right.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are rights that all intelligent life in the universe seek to secure but there are many times in mortal life where they are not secure. The people in North Korea do not have the right over their own physical life for Kim Jong Ill threatens to take it from them if they step out of line. Nether do they have the right of liberty and to pursue happiness. They should have these things and one day will – if not in this life in a future one.

Now Blayne, and perhaps you, think that these rights exist for the enslaved even though they cannot exercise them (an oxymoron) because they morally should belong to all men, but not all things that should be exist in the present time. This seems like a somewhat convoluted way of defining a word to many. For instance, if we were to tell a North Korean that he has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness he would probably look at us cross-eyed and say something like: “What are you talking about? I have no liberty and cannot pursue my dreams and if I do I will be put to death.”

On the other hand, if we told him that these are things he should have because it is morally right he would then quit looking at us as if we were out of our minds and agree.

The two ways of looking at Jefferson’s words are quite easy to understand and shouldn’t be the cause of misunderstandings and no matter how you look at the life liberty and the pursuit of happiness all spring from the eternal principle of Decision. Light exists eternally also but we are not always basking in it nor is it always available. Do you have a right to light if you are in the dark with no flashlight? This idea doesn’t make sense even though light is always in existence.

Larry: Legal rights come from the government, who created statutes. The rights that enable and create government come from We the People, who created the government. Didn’t I make that clear?

JJ This was never not clear.

Larry: Can you say that all the “rights” we get from government are really eternal words that don’t pass away?

JJ They are part of the eternal struggle and are all associated with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I am happier when the state lets me go 70 MPH rather than just 60 MPH. Larry: Of course not. In the context of government, what is the difference then between a right and a privilege?

JJ I do not care. I’ll go with whatever you pick from the dictionary.

Larry: Imagine this scene, which takes place in our court rooms every single day. The plaintiff talks about rights, thinking of principles and eternal rights from God, while the judge and all the attorneys present are thinking privilege. Do you think they will communicate well? No. Why not? Because the poor guy is ignorant that creators create rights and that the several definitions of rights depend upon their origin. Am I right about this?

JJ Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness did not have a creator for they are based on eternal principles and have never had a beginning. We can’t say they are defined by their creator for they had no creator. Even God would not exist without them. We are eternally seeking to enhance our lives, our liberty and pursue those things that bring us happiness and joy.

We are endowed by our creator with the impulse to seek to secure the physical right to pursue these things.

This knowledge is helpful in an individual life, but it won’t do you much good in a courtroom and it doesn’t have much to do with the first point as to whether Obama’s action was legal.

Somehow various definitions of rights got injected into the conversation. The question was quite simple. It was supposed to be dealing with the legality of taking out Awlaki and any rights discussed should have dealt with legal ones originating from this country.

We have yet to discuss the morality of the situation as a group – even though some individuals have.

Oct 28, 2011
The Two Definitions

Wow, Larry, instead of clarifying what rights are I think you are covering so many details that the discussion is just making people’s heads spin with little additional light filtering in.

You talk of eternal principles being associated with moral idealistic rights. Well, eternal principles are behind everything we do if we trace then back to the source. If I jump up and down in anger on my TV remote eternal principles are involved. If I go to court and am subject to arbitrary rights and privileges eternal principles are also involved. Eternal principles are involved in everything. Scratching your armpit can be traced back to them.

I do not see this rights conversation as having much conflict between us (some misunderstanding of communication perhaps). Instead we come down to two different basic ways of defining rights.

First there is a right as expressed in the Declaration of independence. I think “Right” was the correct word to use to create an inspiring document but I think the use there has caused some confusion. The confusion would have been minimized if he had said this more accurate statement instead:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable just desires that must be made secure, that among these are the desire for a secure Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Writing the document this way would have been more technically correct and would have avoided some confusion such as we have had here, but it wouldn’t have had the impact.

As it is there are two basic uses of the word caused by two ways of defining it.

(1) That which one has a moral claim or desire to have or express.

(2) That which one has power to do which is in harmony with the laws of the land in which he lives and those who have any authority over his actions.

Thus according to #1 the North Koreans have the right to free speech, but few would use this definition in relation to them and express it this way.

According to Definition Two they do not have the right to free speech.

Thus in our argument Blayne only used Definition One and claimed the North Koreans have the right to free speech whereas I used Definition Two and claimed they did not.

During our argument I attempted to get Blayne to recognize and use Definition Two so we could be on the same page, as that is what determines the technical legality of Obama’s actions.

I understood Blayne’s use of Definition One but it was not applicable to the discussion. I know he thinks it is, and from an esoteric point of view it may be, but for practically determining legality we must use Definition Two.

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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Keys Writings, Part 15

This entry is part 29 of 34 in the series 2011C

Oct 25, 2011
Re: Letter of the Law 1.2

Blayne: If had to sum up the two sides it is this: Your side is that bunch of politically connected attorneys studied the evidence and concluded he was a threat worthy of death and you explicitly trust that decision despite the lack of verification/accountability. And the precedent that government has done this in the past secretly and or illegally etc. makes it ok.

JJ That’s about a million miles from my side. This tells me that you are reading what I write with tremendous filters on wit the purpose of defending your mindset and not even trying to understand what I am saying or trying to do.

Why don’t you read what I actually write and try restating what my side is.

Oct 25, 2011
Re: Letter of the Law 1.2

Blayne: If had to sum up the two sides it is this: Your side is that bunch of politically connected attorneys studied the evidence and concluded he was a threat worthy of death and you explicitly trust that decision despite the lack of verification/accountability. And the precedent that government has done this in the past secretly and or illegally etc. makes it ok.

JJ (Previous Post) That’s about a million miles from my side. This tells me that you are reading what I write with tremendous filters on with the purpose of defending your mindset and not even trying to understand what I am saying or trying to do.

Why don’t you read what I actually write and try restating what my side is.

Blayne: What part of my statements are wrong?

JJ So you can’t more accurately restate the stance I am taking? If you are going to argue with me you first must understand what I am saying and coming from else we will continue to go around in circles.

You seem to think I am coming from a value judgment stance in our discussing as you are. I am not. So far with you I have only attempted to conclude whether the action was legal or not. This is a conclusion dealing with the technicalities of the law – NOT whether Awlaki was “worthy” of death.

Let’s analyze what you think I am saying based on what I have been trying to accomplish with you.

Blayne “Your side is that bunch of politically connected attorneys studied the evidence and concluded he was a threat worthy of death.”

JJ I haven’t taken a side and have not said anything giving a value judgment as to whether Awlaki was worth of death. I have maintained that the evidence gives support to the idea that Obama’s action was legal. That doesn’t mean he was right or wrong or that Awlaki was “worthy’ of death. It means the action is assumed to be legal unless proved and accepted otherwise through the judicial system.

Blayne: “and you explicitly trust that decision.”

JJ I haven’t said whether or not I trust Obama’s decision let alone “explicitly trust.” Trusting or not trusting Obama’s decision has nothing to do with the first point that we are dealing with.

Blayne: despite the lack of verification/accountability.

JJ Again this has nothing to do with the first point – Is it legal? I do not believe I have given any value judgment related to verification or accountability yet.

Blayne: And the precedent that government has done this in the past secretly and or illegally etc. makes it ok.

JJ I didn’t use precedents to establish that anything was okay, but to give evidence of the legality.

Again, for the umpteenth time – if something is legal that doesn’t mean it is right, moral or okay.

Here is my correct position so far:

Evidence and facts indicate that Obama’s action was legal.

Oct 26, 2011
Letter of the Law 1.3

Blayne I agree with you here in fact there are a distinct lack of facts in this case which is one of the main reasons for my stance. So if the facts are not enough to support my conclusion how in the world are they enough to support yours?

JJ I didn’t say there were not enough facts but “facts are not enough to assure a correct decision,” meaning that two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.

There are enough facts to establish the legality. You don’t need many facts for this like you would if we were evaluating how moral tor correct the action was.

Blayne If had to sum up the two sides it is this: Your side is that bunch of politically connected attorneys studied the evidence and concluded he was a threat worthy of death and you explicitly trust that decision despite the lack of verification/accountability. And the precedent that government has done this in the past secretly and or illegally etc. makes it ok.

JJ See previous post.

Blayne My side is this: the only verifiable/accountable evidence is that he has spouted some anti-government rhetoric. That he was a credible threat is nothing more then accusations aired in the media. And that this does not warrant immediate assassination. And that past precedents of illegal actions do not make it ok,

JJ This has nothing to do with the first point we are discussing which is:

Was it legal?

Blayne: I actually agree with you here and this is why I am so astonished. I am definitely attached to the values and ideals of freedom and justice

JJ But that doesn’t have anything to do with the question: Is it legal? Your mind keeps translating this question into; “Was it the right thing to do?

You seem to have a problem in breaking a problem down to its component parts and analyzing them. You keep wanting to deal with the whole shebang at one time and this is one reason no one seems to be able to come to agreement with you in an augment and we keep going in circles.

Blayne and would rather error on the side of freedom then allow any encroachment because I have seen the pain misery and suffering trampled rights cause. My astonishment is that others who are otherwise intelligent would see this as not all that important and see my position as not a good thing

JJ Most people here value the principle of freedom just as much as you do. Judging whether or not a thing is legal has nothing to do with freedom. If I say that slavery was legal 200 years ago that does not mean I do not value freedom.

Blayne So let me make sure I understand you here. You are saying a principle must be like gravity always in operation despite what men do? JJ This could lead us to a diversion that could take us far off the topic and lead to days of going back and forth. I have already written volumes on principles.

A principle is the core thing that explains why something works. Gravity itself is not a principle though it is often called such but some principle explains its operation and why it is always at play. That principle has not yet been discovered but it will be related to the principled of cause and effect. A principle is always true and can be accessed once understood.

The principle of freedom is related to decision. Every decision we make either leads to greater or less freedom. Decisions are always at play.

My point was that if you see this as a principle then I can see why you think there should be no exceptions to it just as cause and effect is never negated.

JJ (Previous Post) You have a black and white view where the Solomon principle does not even apply, no exceptions, a person should be presumed innocent until found innocent or guilty by a jury trial.

Blayne This is an incorrect view of my position I have repeated several times there are some exceptions. Perhaps one of the reasons we can’t agree is because of wrong perception of my view?

JJ If this is incorrect then when can we discard the presumed innocent process of the legal system?

JJ (Previous Post) If a law is declared legal by constitutionally appointed judges and I do not agree with that law then it is still the law and legal and binding in your society. And what do you suggest we do with laws we do not like – break them and go to jail? Complain about them? That doesn’t do much good. If a person is really outraged then he should seek to make changes.

Blayne I have already proven this is not true and quoted A supreme court ruling and 16th volume of American Jurisprudence. Martin Luther King Broke the law and went to jail and it did change the law eventually.

JJ There’s nothing in your quote that disproves anything I have said.

The Constitution trumps all other laws like it says and unconstitutional laws can be discarded, but a law passed through proper channels will be in force until it is proven to be unconstitutional. Just because you think a law is unconstitutional doesn’t mean that others will see it the same way. If the Supreme Court declares a law is constitutional and you disagree then you will still be bound by it, even if you are sure they are wrong.

There are many laws that some argue as being unconstitutional that we are still bound by because judges think they are constitutional.

Just try and drive without a license if you think having one is unconstitutional. You can still go to jail as did my friend Wayne. You can’t just say, I’m ignoring this because it is not Constitutional.

Blayne You seem to feel that there is nothing we can do but then you seem to contradict yourself and say a person should change the law if he doesn’t like it.

JJ I said there is nothing we can do about bad law in THE SHORT TERM! In the long term we can attempt to change the laws. There is no contradiction.

Blayne: Your idea that any law passed is binding is the prevailing mindset and is the very reason why it is so hard to change things and the entire system.

JJ So are you saying that if a law is passed that you deem unconstitutional, but it has not been overturned then you can break it with impunity? I don’t think so. It didn’t work for Wayne. Where do you get such illogical unreasonable ideas?

Blayne: Do you believe government has a right to mandate health care coverage?

JJ I think it is unconstitutional but there are Supreme Court justices that disagree. Law is not subject to belief. If I believe that I should be able to drive without a license I can still go to jail over it no matter what I believe.

We should be getting a Supreme Court decision soon on the mandate and that will determine what is legal with the mandate independent of any belief you have.

Blayne If no then will you obey the law passed despite 70% of Americans opposition?

JJ I obey all current laws with draconian penalties. I think even Ron Paul does also.

Blayne: So by having this mindset that any law passed is binding which goes against all our founding principles and hundreds of years of jurisprudence and historical precedent we have created a society that think government has a right to intervene into every aspect of out lives.

JJ One thing has nothing to do with the other. Bad law, which is binding has been passed or incorporated since the beginning of civilization and will continue far into the future. Why you think that a law passed, but not overturned, is not binding and you can ignore it without penalty is an amazing piece of mental gymnastics to behold.

JJ (Previous Post) Once something is legal there is no line to draw. It is just legal and there is nothing you can do about it in the short term. You can disagree with it but you will still be subject to it until it is changed.

Blayne So if congress ever passes a law that it is ok for them to rape women at will then you would consider that binding and tell folks if they don’t like it then change it but until then they must abide by it? That is the logical conclusion of your view. You are dead wrong here my friend!

JJ I said we must abide by law or suffer the penalties attached. I didn’t say that we could not break the law through civil disobedience. In that case the penalty would still be there. Suppose there was this stupid law that said rape was okay and if you tried to stop one you would suffer the death penalty. You arrive on the scene like John Wayne and attempt a rescue. You are caught in the act of heroism and soon executed.

Was the law binding on you even though it violated all sense of right and wrong?

Yes, you did not escape the penalty.

Why would you think otherwise?

I feel like I am arguing with someone who is just dreaming up things that make no sense to be arguing about for the hell of it. JJ (Previous Post) Where do you get that idea? Of course the Constitution gives us rights. That’s why we have different rights here than people in other countries.

Blayne The constitution purports to protect rights it does not grant them. The right to bear arms in self defense like all rights has always existed just like gravity.

JJ Gravity exists in North Korea, but the right to bear arms does not exist. They do not have that right no matter how many times you shout it from the rooftops. If a Constitution like ours were in force there then they would have the right. And where would it come from? Not osmosis, but the Constitution.

Your confusing “a right” with something that is moral, correct, or right. It would be the right thing to do to give North Koreans the right to bear arms, but presently they do not have the right.

Blayne: So how could it grant rights that it doesn’t even list?

JJ See above.

Rights that were already in existence were merely guaranteed by the Constitution, but rights that were not in existence were created by it as well as protected. Before the Constitution, under the British rule, they did not have a right of protection against unreasonable searches. The Constitution granted that right and protected it.

Blayne: I am amazed at the lack of understanding. North Koreans have the same rights as we do as do all men.

JJ Then why can’t they have guns?

Are you sure you’re just not trying to give me a bad time as a hoot?

Blayne: Just because they are being oppressed and do not have power to overcome their oppressors at the moment does not mean they do not have the right to bear arms rise up and overthrow their oppressors just like we did in the 18th century.

JJ If they try and bear arms now they will be put to death. Obviously the right to bear arms does not exist there. If they overthrew their government they could establish that right in the future, but it does not exist now. I feel kind of silly having to explain this.

Blayne The idea that a piece of paper can grant rights is amazing. It is just an illustration of existing rights…

JJ If the ruling powers accept that piece of paper then the rights written there are granted. Of course, it is not the physical paper itself that grants the rights but the power of the words thereon which were initiated by intelligent effort and have a life of their own.

JJ (Previous Post) And what principle have I abandoned? The answer is none.

Blayne: You have abandon the principle of freedom and justice.

JJ That accusation is completely untrue with absolutely nothing to back it up – and beneath you.

Blayne: Where we disagree is that unsubstantiated accusations constitute an act of war.

JJ I have no idea what you are talking about here.

JJ (Previous Post) Then explain how slavery was both moral and legal if only the moral thing is legal.

Blayne Slavery was immoral and unconstitutional that was the basis for the argument for abolishing it. Slaves were not seen as men they were seen largely as animals which of course was an illusion but this was their reasoning in denying them the same rights as all men.

JJ If slavery was unconstitutional then why did we need a constitutional amendment to make it unconstitutional and illegal???

Legalities concerning slaves were referenced three times in the Constitution

Section 2 of Article I states that apart from free persons “all other persons,” meaning slaves, are each to be counted as three-fifths of a white person for the purpose of apportioning congressional representatives on the basis of population. Section 9 of Article I states that the importation of “such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit,” meaning slaves, would be permitted until 1808. And Section 2 of Article IV directs that persons “held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another,” meaning fugitive slaves, were to be returned to their owners.

Obviously the people thought slavery was Constitutional as many thousands of people owned them and were not prosecuted for breaking the law. It was also immoral to relegate them to being considered property.

You’re wrong on this point. Slavery was both immoral and legal in early America. It was also legal and immoral in Ancient Rome and Greece and many other nations.

Blayne LOL tell me what’s the difference between Hitler and the thugs I described except scale? Nothing!

JJ Big difference. The thugs are still subject to government and the law. Hitler was the government and the law.

Blayne They say unconstitutional laws are not binding as you keep claiming they are. Of course you omitted it here it clearly says such laws are not binding confers no authority AS IF IT HAD NEVER BEEN PASSED etc etc. it refutes your argument 110% ! Not it can be thrown out later. It clearly means it is null and void the minute it is passed like it never existed. I could post a dozen more and I am sure you would deny them also. Clearly you are to attached to your belief here to see the truth.

JJ I covered this a while back but let me recap. A law, once passed, has binding penalties are passed upon violators. Even if the law seems to obviously go against the Constitution it will still be in play and enforced until it is overturned. You can’t just wave a piece of paper and say “I’m not paying income tax because it is unconstitutional,” and then think you will be left alone because your proclamation has negated the law.

JJ (Previous Post) Blayne then gives a discourse on parking tickets and does not address the fact that it would be impossible to give every crime a jury trial.

Blayne The point you missed is that you assume everything that ends up in court is a crime based on your belief all legislation is binding.

JJ It’s not a belief. It is a fact that once a law is on the books it is binding until it is overturned. If I am wrong give me one example.

Blayne However if we actually followed the law we would have a minute fraction of cases and they could all be easily tried by jury.

JJ I’m with you on throwing out a lot of bad and unnecessary law but its unlikely to happen any time soon. Meanwhile the laws we have are enforceable unless overturned.

Blayne We have a lot of attorneys making a living off the misery and suffering of society much of which they cause and while contributing nothing to society. Sorry If I did not make that clear.

JJ You’ve always been clear as a bell on that point.

Blayne You can deny it all you want. I have used traditional application not assumptions, corruption does not make a fact an assumption. You are using typical leftist rhetoric saying the 5th and 6th amendments have nothing to do with each other. The left uses the same BS on the second amendment to say it was talking about only the militia not the people when every other amendment clearly denotes the people and the 2nd of no exception. JJ My points concerning two Amendments are nothing like the Left’s interpretation of one Amendment – the Second Amendment. There is no hard evidence that the sixth explains the fifth anymore than the seventh explains the sixth. All the Amendments paint a full picture but are independent entities.

Blayne: Still the 6th guarantees every man accused of a crime a trial by jury so any due process must offer every man that right outlined in the 6th. How you can extrapolate anything other then that is beyond all reason and logic.

JJ It says: “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial,…”

In Awlaki’s case he was not criminally prosecuted but treated as an enemy combatant so one could argue the speedy trial does not apply. Also the Sixth says one should be tried in the district where the crime was committed. How could we have a jury trial for him in Yemen?

Blayne Yeah heaven forbid anyone should want government to follow the law that binds them down from mischief, why they must be extremists…

JJ I guess I’m an extremist then.

Blayne It is very interesting that you agree with the quote yet try to paint me as a fundamentalist for espousing it as part of my philosophy.

JJ You seem to overlook the fact that we both agree that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and all other laws are supposed to be subject to it. We also both embrace the Principle of freedom to the best of our abilities. We just interpret things differently.

You think that a law has to be good righteous and moral before it is binding on citizens. You are the only person I have ever come across that thinks this way.

Everyone I know sees that there are some bad laws out there that have little to do with morality that can land us in jail if we violate them. Why you do not see this is very mysterious.

Oct 26, 2011
Re: anti-government movement claptrap

Dan: You said it brother, THEY do that kinda stuff to keep the sovereign man down. My 2nd cousin on my mother’s side had a friend that said his buddy knew someone who … and remember to stay under cover when you see them there chemtrails in the sky.

JJ Chemtrails, Moon landing hoax, false flag 911, secret NASA missions, Ron Paul enthusiast, Confederate supporter, Illuminati conspiracy, literalist view of the Constitution, Planet X, tax protesters… The are all so different subjects but believers are so much the same.

Oct 26, 2011
Re: anti-government movement claptrap

Blayne: Wow so we should not take the constitution literally?..So tell me what is it allegorical for?

And Ron Paul enthusiast? How about JJ Dewey enthusiast? Painting with quite a broad brush there aren’t you…

JJ Yeah, I might have stepped over the line but couldn’t resist… There’s a lot of interlapping in that list though.

People get in trouble when they take anything too literally whether it be the Constitution, the Bible, DK, me, or the voice of God himself. Judgement and discernment must always be in play or the pilgrim will be deceived.

Comet Elenin No More

This may be the last we hear of Comet Elenin. At least Blayne and I agreed on that.

Elenin Link

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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Keys Writings, Part 14

This entry is part 28 of 34 in the series 2011C

Oct 21, 2011
Re: Letter of the Law 1.1

I don’t believe the Constitution differentiates between criminal and commercial law. You can go to jail over a traffic violation just as you can burglary. My friend Wayne went to jail several times over traffic violations without a jury trial. I didn’t see any reason to break the law down to its various parts when the Constitution did not.

Oct 21, 2011
Re: Letter of the Law

Eke: “The constitution is made for man and not man made for constitution.”

JJ Great statement Eke.

On a different note I notice that the posts of you and Judy both have a lot of unwanted characters. Usually this is caused from your creating the post in some incompatible software. What I’ve found that works is to convert your formatted text to raw unformatted text format and then post. This usually solves the problem.

Oct 21, 2011
Re: Muammar Gaddafi Killed

Have you ever seen a worse job of taking a video than the one associated with Gaddafi’s killing? You’d think for such a historical event someone would have made sure the camera was steady and focused. As it is it looks like it was filmed by someone wacked out on LSD dancing around a fire pit.

Oct 22, 2011
Re: Letter of the Law

I’ve been checking into what you said Larry and found a few things. I couldn’t find any evidence though that something like a speeding ticket would fall under commercial law. Do you have a reference on that? Most are in a different category than felonies or misdemeanors, I know that.

You are right that normal traffic tickets are called infractions. Others though can lead to misdemeanors or felonies such as DUIs, reckless driving, refusing to sign or pay a ticket, driving without auto insurance and failure to stop at the scene of an accident.

The next time I get my driver’s license I’ll have to see what I actually signed on for.

Now there are those who drive with no license and they didn’t sign up or agree to anything yet they can be charged with a number of crimes while driving and sent to jail like my friend Wayne. Speeding without a license has nothing to do with morality but it can certainly get you in trouble.

The Fifth Amendment says:

No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

When one is fined for speeding he is indeed deprived of property (his money) without due process as some define it.

When I was talking about due process of law I was talking about all laws that can lead to loss of life liberty or property. That does lump the various categories together. I see nothing wrong with this as it has nothing to do with saying all law is the same or currently dealt with the same way. Why you thought I was saying such a thing is a mystery and such technicality has nothing to do with a ring-pass-not.

That said, thanks for your information on the various kinds of law. I learned several things.

Oct 22, 2011
Molecular Difficulties

A short time ago it was suggested that a molecule could be created through online communications. One of the things that will have to be dealt with in a molecule will be various disagreements. Since we had one here I thought it may be a good opportunity to illustrate two things. One is how difficult and slow it is to solve any problem online. We could have probably hashed out this Awlaki problem in person within an hour or so but here we have spent many days and intensive hours in writing and still we have not gotten beyond the first simple point of whether Obama’s action was legal.

The second problem that is illustrated is how difficult it is to solve personality disagreements when they come up. What seems simple and clear to some is very complex to others.

Another problem is that many tune out when a round of disagreements materialize whereas in person most people are willing to wade through a couple hours of arbitration.

I tried to break down the various elements of the problem in an attempt to make it solvable. If we started out talking about what is right or wrong then emotions will run high. I thought I would begin by examining whether or not the action was legal – which should have had nothing to do with good or bad, but still we did not escape confronting that from the beginning.

I think that seeing the futility here of bringing harmony between two good people illustrates the difficulty we will face in creating a united Molecule. Obviously, we will need to draw from a large pool of seekers to create the first unified molecule.

After the first one is created the second will be easier, however.

This arguing process is becoming very time consuming and not doing anything to convince our holdout – Blayne. What do you think? Should we continue on this subject or not?

Oct 23, 2011
The First Point 101
My Friends,

Thanks for your feedback. It sounds like the group would like us to see this subject through to see where it goes. Okay.. I’ll cooperate.

As you know, I’ve tried to simplify the discussion by breaking the conflict down to its simplest parts. This sometimes can be quite beneficial. Suppose person A is arguing with person B about Topic C. Perhaps Topic C is composed of five different parts and the two actually agree on four of those parts. This means the path to union is found in a correct understanding of the fifth part.

On the other hand, if they disagree on four out of five of the parts then the division is pretty wide and agreement will be difficult to negotiate.

The funny part about point one is that both Blayne and Duke thought the assassination of Awlaki was illegal, as well as myself. It turns out that looking into it changed my mind and caused strong disagreement from Blayne. I do not recall Duke even weighing in on the legality since the analysis began – so maybe they both disagree with my thoughts so far.

Let us first summarize where we are on point one.

Arguments can be made either way on this and both sides have their points.

One side claims it is illegal because Awlaki is an American citizen. As such before he can be punished he needs to be arrested, read his rights and then given a jury trial. Only then can we punish him. This they say is mandated under the Constitution.

The other side claims the Constitution is not so black and white and during a time of war we can attack those who are working to destroy this country whether they are citizens or not.

I found one scientific poll on this and 73% of the population agree with the second side.

Poll Link

The New York Times cites reasoning that Obama’s attorneys give for the action being legal. Among them are:

“The legal analysis, in essence, concluded that Mr. Awlaki could be legally killed, if it was not feasible to capture him, because intelligence agencies said he was taking part in the war between the United States and Al Qaeda and posed a significant threat to Americans, as well as because Yemeni authorities were unable or unwilling to stop him.

“Based on those premises, the Justice Department concluded that Mr. Awlaki was covered by the authorization to use military force against Al Qaeda that Congress enacted shortly after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 — meaning that he was a lawful target in the armed conflict unless some other legal prohibition trumped that authority.

“The memo concluded that what was reasonable, and the process that was due, was different for Mr. Awlaki than for an ordinary criminal. It cited court cases allowing American citizens who had joined an enemy’s forces to be detained or prosecuted in a military court just like noncitizen enemies.”

NYT Link

In my opinion the second side makes the strongest case. Suppose an American citizen had an atomic bomb pointed at New York and we had the chance to take him out before he pressed the button. Would we allow millions of people to die just so we can adhere to a black and white surface interpretation of the Constitution?

No. This does not make sense.

So far all judges and attorneys involved in decision-making have deemed the action legal and its legality thus stands unless the some action through the legal system proves otherwise. If this were to happen then I would agree that the action is illegal, even though I wouldn’t agree with that assessment.

Question: Is there anyone besides Blayne that disagrees with my conclusion? If so, why?

Oct 23, 2011
Re: Cyclopean vision

Good points, John. I’m sure that advanced beings with one eye do not suffer from the limitations of seeing that one of us have with one eye. Evolution always goes forward, not backwards. It is quite possible they can see more with the eye closed than we can see with both eyes open and that eye works in combination with other sight centers they use creating not only three dimensional seeing but dimensions we cannot even see. There are reasons the masonic symbol is called the “all-seeing eye.”

Oct 23, 2011
Re: Molecular Difficulties

Larry W JJ quote, “…we see that the Molecule is basically a representative government, but with maximum authority (which can be removed at any time) in the hands of the leaders. It follows the Middle Way principle and uses the best of the democratic system combined with the efficient elements of the authoritarian system.”

I think if you look at the context where you got that quote, Dan, you will see JJ was talking about the business molecular relationship there.

JJ This principle basically applies to the spiritual molecule as well.

Oct 23, 2011
Re: Molecular Difficulties

Good point Rick. If there is a principle involved you are on to it. Creation involves going from the disorganized to an almost perfect organization. In between there will be broken eggs. Perhaps we can call this “the broken eggs principle.” Without the broken eggs you will not have that great tasting omelet.

Oct 24, 2011
New Principle
Steve:
What springs to mind is the ‘Push the Boundary’ Principle. Children do it all the time, and it seems a natural aspect to growth.

The flip side is that those in power under glamour and illusion will also use it to their own gain, more often than not to the detriment of others. Once a precedent is set, it can be like opening a new door of opportunity for them.

JJ Glad to see you guys thinking about principles.

There is indeed a principle involved and “Push the Boundary” is a great name to describe one of its effects. But this is a branch of the real principle which gives us an opportunity to do some discovery:

Question: What is the real principle behind this Push the Boundary force and how it works?

Oct 24, 2011 Re: Moving Onward

Duke: Lincoln suspended civil liberties during an undeclared war, but so far we have not elected someone so evil as to twist that into justification for imprisoning political opponents.

JJ

Good point.

Oct 25, 2011
Letter of the Law 1.2

Blayne: I admit I could have a blind spot. However I go to great lengths to try and re-examine things when told that or several I respect disagree with me. Could I still be missing it? Sure but after going over the facts several times there is nothing to suggest to me that I am missing something here.

JJ Unfortunately, facts are not enough to assure a correct decision. A number of us here are familiar with the same facts yet come to different conclusions. You have come to one conclusion and everyone else with the same facts has come to another.

And why is this?

It isn’t because you are honing in on some fact the rest is missing. Instead, it is that you have a strong attachment to certain values or ideals that are not that all-important to the rest of us. This causes you to take the same facts we use and come to an entirely different conclusion.

And what is that difference in values? You give a hint in your next statement.

Blayne: I hear yours and others reasoning and it is contrary to the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

JJ This is not the core reason for most of our disagreements but a branch reason. We’ll deal with this for now.

First, innocent until proven guilty, is not a principle, but a procedure and not all nations practice it or believe in using it. In reality a person is guilty the instant he commits a crime. Instead of being a principle it is a procedure that has a place in our legal system.

If you believe it to be a principle then I can see why you would be fairly black and white that it must always transpire just as gravity always works.

So, here seems to be the reason we cannot agree on the first point.

You have a black and white view where the Solomon principle does not even apply, no exceptions, a person should be presumed innocent until found innocent or guilty by a jury trial.

I do not think anyone else here thinks that way. Here is my view that most here seem to support.

Innocent until proven guilty is a procedure and all procedures are subject to exceptions. In other words, there are times when the procedure does much more harm than good and in such cases they should be abandoned and replaced by something more efficient.

For instance, if we had evidence that a certain citizen was going to detonate a nuclear bomb in New York and there was not time to follow standard procedure then to hell with procedure – let us instead save millions of lives and neutralize the situation anyway possible. The people, as the final arbitrators of the law, would support such an action.

This is where the Second Key of judgment comes in.

Wise judgment always trumps procedure from a higher point of view.

Does this mean that the legal procedure of innocent until proven guilty is meaningless? No, of course not. All of our laws and legal procedures stand as written unless sound judgment and the will of the people decrees they should be overridden.

Does this mean that we should make a list of 10,000 exceptions to our legal procedures?

No. This again goes against the key of judgment. The people will have a feel for when a wise judgment is made that overrides procedure and if the judgment is in a gray area they will be forgiving.

Obama taking out Awlaki was in a gray area, but 73% of the people support it which gives evidence that good judgment was used.

Blayne I can’t do much more then that if all the arguments don’t make logical sense to me, and I am not going to concede until they do.

JJ The arguments do not make sense because they do not harmonize with that to which you give great value. If your values were the same as the rest of the group then the arguments would start to make sense.

Blayne Your excuse that I am just being a fundamentalist here does not apply because we are dealing with foundation principles of justice here; innocent until proven guilty.

JJ Justice and “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law” are two very different things. True justice is only created by good judgment. “Innocent until proven guilty” requires no judgment but is a black and white procedure that usually helps insure justice, but not always. We should always seek justice, but we should not always seek the same black and white procedure.

And since we are dealing with black and white things the idea of “innocent until proven guilty” rarely happens even in a jury trial. Sometimes a person is proven guilty, as was O J Simpson. He was judged innocent because of bias. Other times there is not solid evidence of guilt but the guy is still found guilty. Rarely is a person proven guilty beyond any doubt.

You want “innocent until proven guilty by a jury trial” for every crime which is a different animal than a mere “innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.” Those who judged the Awlaki situation most likely presumed he was innocent until the evidence convinced them beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty of treason and more. So the procedure was most likely applied there, but without a jury trial. You do not have to have a jury trial to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. On the other hand, a jury trial does not always establish a judgment beyond a reasonable doubt as in O J Simpson.

Blayne Basically what you are saying is because judges and government have perverted the foundations of law through precedent we have to just go with it.

JJ Perverted is your choice of wording not mine. What perversion are you talking about?

If a law is declared legal by constitutionally appointed judges and I do not agree with that law then it is still the law and legal and binding in your society. And what do you suggest we do with laws we do not like – break them and go to jail? Complain about them? That doesn’t do much good. If a person is really outraged then he should seek to make changes.

Blayne So where do we draw the line?

JJ Once something is legal there is no line to draw. It is just legal and there is nothing you can do about it in the short term. You can disagree with it but you will still be subject to it until it is changed.

Blayne: Do we just abandon the principles of justice and allow ourselves to devolve until all the principles are no longer adhered to in any meaningful way because generations of corruption are the precedent?

JJ I’m certainly not abandoning any of my principles.

Blayne First of all the constitution does not give any rights at all.

JJ Where do you get that idea? Of course the Constitution gives us rights. That’s why we have different rights here than people in other countries.

We have the right to bear arms here but in North Korea they do not. What gives us that right where the North Koreans do not have it?

The Constitution and the will to uphold it.

We have many rights because of the Constitution that many in other countries just do not have.

There is a difference between something being right (correct) and “a right.”

Blayne Just because all branches approve does not mean it is lawful.

JJ Wow. If all branches of government cannot make a law which is legal then who can? By your reasoning then it would seem that nothing legal exists anywhere if legality cannot be decided by anyone living.

Blayne: So according to you since that is the reality we might as well abandon its principles.

JJ And what principle have I abandoned? The answer is none.

Blayne In light of this (the power of juries) why is it so hard for you to understand that a star chamber of attorneys approving hits is wrong and un-American?

JJ Not all legal decisions in the universe are made by juries. In Awlaki’s case the attorneys advised but did not make the decision. I understand it was the military in connection with Obama giving final approval. If you try and apply one solution to all legal problems this will create more problems than it solves.

Blayne: The Jury is the the forth branch and government and the most important.

JJ Yes juries are extremely important and need to be restored to their rightful place. They even have power to negate Constitutional law. But in times of war many things do not go through juries. One size does not fit all.

Blayne What is not logical about law needing to be foundationally moral? It is perfectly logical.

JJ You are not hearing me. I said nothing even close to this conclusion you have conjured. Whenever possible a law should be moral. I have NEVER said anything contrary to this.

BUT I have said that a law does not have to be moral to be legal. If those who have power to make law pass a law that says slavery is legal then it would be legal, but that wouldn’t make it moral. Oh, wait, we’ve already had a law like that which was Constitutional.

Blayne What is not logical is putting the stamp of some legislative and judicial process on something immoral and calling it legal.

JJ It happens now and then but it’s still legal just as immoral slavery once was.

Blayne: You still haven’t addressed the rape law scenario. Calling that legal would be absurd that is what is called “color of law” meaning it has the color of law but is not really law as it is immoral or harmful.

JJ Just as slavery was legal when declared legal by the authorities even so would rape be legal if it was passed as a law. In some countries rape is pretty much legal and one can legally rape his wife or even beat her. Not much morality there in what is legal – but it is still legal.

JJ (Previous Post) I keep telling you this first point has nothing to do with right and wrong, but legal and illegal. They are two different things.

Blayne And you are wrong here it is in our jurisprudence. I have studied this stuff in depth.

JJ Then explain how slavery was both moral and legal if only the moral thing is legal.

Blayne: Basically what you are saying is if some group of thugs comes and takes over your neighborhood or town and starts abusing everyone and there is no one to stop them since that is the reality then that makes it legal as they are the new law.

JJ That’s crazy talk. We have a legal system set up and those who operate outside of the system cannot decide what is legal within that system.

On the other hand, if a group of thugs overthrew our government and instituted their own then they would have power to decide what was legal, just as Hitler did when he took over Germany.

You do not seem to be able to get it in your head that legal is not always moral. It was legal to abuse Jews in Hitler’s Germany but that was not right or moral.

You have a very strange ephemeral idea of what legal is and that is making this discussion a thousand times more complicated than in talking with anyone else here about this subject.

Blayne What you are saying in essence is might makes right or legal in this case.

JJ No. I’m not saying anything close to that. Legal is not always right. Might has not produced bad law here but it is the result of legal representatives we have chosen through election.

Blayne When in fact everyone knows it is not legal because it is not right. Sure everyone knows that is the reality but that does not make it legal. Well what the heck here is a couple references the second one a US supreme court ruling that bad laws are not law at all:

(Wordy legal quotations omitted)

JJ Your quotations say nothing about laws being moral only that they need to be in harmony with the Constitution or they can be thrown out. Both sides of the argument already believe that so why spend so much time on this?

The problem is that you think it is your sense of morality that determines Constitutional law rather than constitutionally appointed judges. Everyone thinks their interpretation of the Constitution is the right one and to avoid bedlam certain judges must be appointed to interpret law.

Blayne (Previous Post) So far each point that you have tried to say was open to interpretation in the constitution I have easily refuted and pointed out the plain meaning.

JJ (Previous Post) I don’t recall you refuting even one that I have not demolished. Care to refresh my memory one even one thing.

Blayne Sure you said that due process of law in the 5th Amendment has no clear meaning leaving the door open to interpretation to allow star chambers of politically connected attorneys to order hits on American citizens. The sixth amendment defines due process as trial by jury by saying all are entitled to it. It could not be much more clear then that.

JJ I didn’t say “no clear meaning” I said “It can indeed be argued.” The President, his attorneys and military chiefs in a time of war are hardly a star chamber. The sixth amendment is a separate entity from the fifth and doesn’t even contain the phrase “due process.” How can it be defining something it does not even reference??? Due process merely means a legal process.

I don’ think you’ve refuted anything here.

JJ (Previous Post) So you maintain then that EVERY single crime needs a jury trial. You are really in a minuscule minority here. Even applying this to one crime, parking tickets for example, would be crazy talk.

JJ Blayne then gives a discourse on parking tickets and does not address the fact that it would be impossible to give every crime a jury trial.

Blayne What part of the Constitution being the law of the land do you not understand? I have showed you twice now how it DOES define due process and has been used in that definition.

JJ No you have not. You keep referencing the Sixth Amendment that does not even contain the words “due process” neither does it define the term. It is not clearly defined anywhere in the Constitution.

You are using traditional assumptions.

Blayne So you refuse to acknowledge the clear language of the 6th amendment that all men are guaranteed trial by jury. If all men accused of a crime are guaranteed such how is it that due process could be anything else? It is illogical to think otherwise.

JJ The sixth amendment does not even use the term “due process” is but speaks of some legalities which can be part (but not the whole) of due process.

The 14th Amendment says: “nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;”

This gives the only other hint as to what due process is. Note the term “due process of law.”

Due process is merely considered to be following that which is legal. Most of the legal minds agree that Obama’s action was legal along with 73% of the people and, after all, the people are the final judge of the law.

Blayne: “I consider trial by jury as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.” – Thomas Jefferson

JJ Good quote. He is in harmony with my thinking.

Blayne: We know what the Founders meant when they wrote it we have plenty of their writings of them telling us what they meant, as if the language of it was not plain enough.

JJ Not all the founders were in agreement on the contents of the Constitution. What they said may have influence on a judge’s interpretation but what is written in the actual Constitution is paramount and many of the lines are subject to interpretation. If you do not think so then you are in a very tiny minority.

You seem to think that a dozen people can read any line in the document and the wording is so clear that all will come to the same conclusion. This is La La Land thinking and history proves you absolutely incorrect. You and I who are both libertarians and we cannot even agree on many lines and you and I would both unitedly disagree with many Leftist interpretations.

Blayne: Tell me what is the spirit of the words of “In ALL criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury” It says “all” not some.

JJ Awlaki was notified a year before his execution that that he was a wanted man and if he could not be captured and tried by jury he would be taken out. He had a year to exercise his right to a jury trial, but refused. So the word ALL did include Awlaki. He was then turned over to the due process of a military action.

What is and is not a criminal prosecution is also subject to interpretation.

Your thinking that everything in the document is crystal clear and no interpretation is needed is strange indeed and none of the Founders support you in this thinking. If there were not numerous ways of looking at the words and interpreting the words then we wouldn’t even need judges for this purpose. The Founders would not have created the Supreme Court if no interpretation of the Constitution was needed..

Blayne: I in fact would like to abolish the constitution.

JJ Wow. Who would have thought? What would you have in its place?

Blayne: So you can stop trying to associate me with the fundamentalist moniker.

JJ Pick six people here and ask them whether or not you sound very fundamentalist in your interpretation of the Constitution.

Blayne’s quote: “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution.” Thomas Jefferson.

JJ Again – a good quote.

JJ (Previous Post) This is like listening to the extreme religious fundamentalist say something like:

“Jesus says I should pluck out my eye if it offends and my eyes caused me to lust after a woman so I guess I’ll pluck them out.”

Just like that scripture has shades of meaning even so are there differing ways to interpret the Constitution.

Blayne And this is like listening to a liberal leftist saying oh the constitution is a living document and it means what ever some judge Attorney or the president says it means as long as he agrees with my liberal belief’s.

JJ This is the first time in my life I have been compared to a liberal leftist.

When leftists speak of the Constitution being a living document they are NOT referring to the fact that intelligent people can have differing interpretations. They are saying that they should be able to negate what is written as immoral and create law true their version of what is right and moral rather than by what is written or by adding amendments. I am totally against the leftist view of the “living document” as they understand it.

JJ (Previous Post) And how do you know that the decision of a jury is true. You don’t. There is not 100% surety in any decision made. Without some element of trust nothing can get done. With too much everything falls apart. This is why the Key of Judgment is so important.

Blayne This is getting ridiculous. Nothing is perfect the point is all the evidence is heard by an impartial jury not a bunch of politically connected attorneys who are biased to an agenda. The attorneys are supposed to be making the case to a jury not ordering deaths.

JJ The question under consideration is – was the action legal? If it was then there was probably no more bias involved than would occur in the regular jury process. It looks like our main difference in thinking.

You think that a law has to fit in with your version of what is Constitutional, right and moral to be legal.

I think that laws are legal, whether I think they are right or not, if they have been created through our Constitutional process.

I’d say that over 90% of the people would agree with me on this and when 90% of the people support what is deemed to be legal then that legality will indeed be upheld until it is changed by new law.

I’m talking about legalities here, not whether Obama made the best possible choice in dealing with Awlaki. That comes later.

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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Keys Writings, Part 12

This entry is part 20 of 34 in the series 2011C

Oct 13, 2011
Re: Secret panel can put Americans on “kill list’

Blayne: Let me get this straight do you think this justifies executing citizens on the presidents word he is a terrorist threat with no accountability authority or evidence?

JJ No. That’s not what I said. I posted that example from George Washington’s execution without trial to illustrate that much worse has been done by our heroes. The men Washington executed appears to have been less of a threat than Anwar al-Awlaki is to us.

I agree with you that the law needs to be followed. It does look liked he could be tried for treason as he apparently is advocating a violent overthrow of the United States openly on his web site. Treason has carried the death penalty in the past.

If this guy is a threat that needs taken out then Obama should work within the law to accomplish this. If there is no way to bring him in then perhaps he could be tried in absentia or have his citizenship revoked and treated accordingly.

So, do you agree with George Washington’s executions I cited? If not then what should he have done?

Molecular Disagreements

Blayne and Duke are among my favorite people so I do not relish them going after each other and disagree so strongly but such things happen. After all, a number of the good members here have gone around with me a number of times. Such disagreements are likely to surface in the molecule now and then so this provides an opportunity to ask some new questions.

Let us suppose that Blayne and Duke are in a molecule together and this very argument breaks out.

Would this disagreement interfere with the spiritual flow? After all the subject is somewhat removed from spiritual conversation.

Let us suppose the topic involved a spiritual principle. Would such a disagreement create a problem?

In both cases can anything be done to cause them both to look through the eyes of the sol together and see as one?

The Governing Principle Blayne writes: Perhaps we can try an experiment here? Point out what you think my illusions are on this issue and lets see of we can at least agree on what the issue is and is not and if we can come to agreement there then we can seek soul contact on if it was handled appropriately?

JJ Thanks for the brave suggestion.

Let’s handle this as if we were in a molecule and we are trying to bring harmony and agreement on this issue.

Now the problem with many disagreements is that both sides of the issue are often not understood or articulated well. For instance, I have had people disagree with me when they really agree but just did not understand what I was saying. If they have their mind made up to be disagreeable it seems that no clarification satisfies them.

It doesn’t do any good to attempt to solve a disagreement through group soul contact unless both sides are clearly understood. If the problem is nebulous then the soul cannot give a clear answer.

In addition the principles involved must be understood and articulated as much as possible.

Steve asks – what shall we do if two or more principles are involved? Which one should we follow?

The answer is that there will always be a dominate principle governing the situation. More often that not, the governing principle concerning the action of a disciple is to accomplish the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

For instance, we are told to not kill which falls within the principle of harmlessness. But suppose you were in a bank and a crazy man had planted a bomb and was about to detonate it when such a blast would kill about 100 people. You just happen to have a gun and know you can take him out before he presses the button? Do you do it when this action seems to violate the principle of harmlessness?

Yes, you do because the overriding principle is to follow that course which brings the greatest good to the greatest number. If you shoot the guy you will take one life and save 100 thereby doing a much greater good than doing nothing.

That said, let us look again at the argument between Blayne and Duke. Answer these questions.

List all the principles involved.

Whose reasoning seems to support the greatest good for the greatest number?

Why?

If you think it is neither side then what action would have been the greatest good.

Believe me, the answer will not be as simple as some may think.

Oct 16, 2011

Re: The Governing Principle

Good comments again today by the group. If we are to harmonize we need to hone in on the principles that apply to the subject.

I think we all agree that the most desirable outcome for an action is the greatest good for the greatest number.

The problem is that both Blayne and Duke believe their conclusions support that direction. What causes two intelligent people to come up with opposite conclusions here? There are several things.

(1) The primary one is the Second Key of Judgment. This is the Second Key of Knowledge because it is of prime importance, right up there with the power of decision itself.

(2) Different core beliefs.

(3) Different values.

(4) Different focus.

Blayne places great emphasis on individual; freedom and focuses in that direction.

Duke places emphasis on flexibility to achieve the greatest good.

Both points of focus have their place and, used with judgment, can produce good results but understanding this will not bring them to agreement. Let us therefore look at the two perspectives and the principles involved in understanding the argument.

Blayne and Duke are free to correct me if I am not accurate.

Blayne sees the killing of an American citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, by the decree of our president as a major threat to the freedom of us all. He broke the law to do this, and if he gets away with it this means that the government can target anyone they dislike. All they have to do is discredit them and then take them out. This could lead to a situation where everyone would be afraid for their lives if they criticized the government.

Duke thinks there is enough evidence to prove that Anwar al-Awlaki was a threat. Maybe not an imminent one but one that was planning an attack on Americans that would take many lives. Since there is no way to just arrest him to neutralize the threat Duke thinks that it is good common sense and serve the greater good to take him out even if it is not clear that such an action is technically legal. After all, we targeted thousands of American citizens for death that had similarly withdrew from the union during the Civil War.

I think the first question to settle is whether of not the assassination was legal. Read this article (or Google others) and give your opinion. If it was legal, that may not mean it was right, but it would mean that the action was justified legally.

Was it Legal?

Oct 16, 2011

Re: The Governing Principle

It is interesting that both Blayne and Duke were arguing from the conclusion that the action in taking out Anwar was illegal. But the New York Times article indicates that it may have been legal after all. Actually any president has to confer with many legal advisers in taking any controversial action.

One of the reasons Blayne was against this was because it was illegal and established a bad precedent. But if it was already legal then the action does not establish anything as it is already legal.

Duke was arguing that it is okay to break a law when the greater good is at stake.

But if the action was legal it appears that both of the were arguing about a point that does not even exist.

It appears then that the argument should just boil down to this question.

Was the action the right thing to do. In other words, was the greater good served by taking him out or not?

Is this assessment correct? What do you think?

NOTE I want to stress that even though this is not a metaphysical subject our end goal is very spiritual in quality. One out of a 1000 of these type of arguments end in agreement so if can accomplish this it will serve as an example and be worth whatever effort it takes.

I must admit that i have not read all the dialog in this ongoing discussion. I’m sure many others haven’t also. Therefore, for those who want to catch up I posted all the pertinent dialog at:

Discussion Link

Oct 17, 2011 Good comments today and I enjoyed them all but we are becoming a little scattered here. To unravel this subject and find agreement we have to dissect it into its pieces and then put them back together. If we just argue the whole subject we will have a cacophony indeed.

Here was the question that needs to be our first point of focus.

“I think the first question to settle is whether of not the assassination was legal. Read this article (or Google others) and give your opinion. If it was legal, that may not mean it was right, but it would mean that the action was justified legally.”

NYT Link

When I made my first comment on this subject I was under the assumption that Obama was operating outside the law in going after this guy. Then I read the New York Times article and changed my mind. After studying the details it appears that Obama may legally squeak by on this and it looks like Ron Paul may not have much of a case in his talk of impeachment.

The courts and the legal experts seem to accept that we are legally at war with terrorists and that those who take sides with the terrorists are fair game citizens or not.

To this Blayne replies: As for the courts ruling blah blah it does not matter the courts are wrong here and I addressed why. There is no authority for such in the document that defines the scope of congress and the president. The courts have long ago given up their duty to stick within the scope of the constitution.

JJ I often think the courts are wrong, but it is still their decisions that determine the interpretation of the Constitution and the laws of the land. Sometimes I think they are right and others way off base, but it is a fact that they determine legality.

It is a hard fact that many lines in the Constitution are open to interpretation. Yes it says that Congress shall have power to declare war, but is the only way to do this with a document that says, “We declare war”?

Congress has authorized the war in Iraq and the War on Terror and these have been upheld by the courts as legal war action.

It appears then that Obama operated within the law and as proof of this we will see that those who disagreed with him will be powerless to legally prosecute or even do much to bring an investigation into the matter.

The Fifth Amendment guarantees due process, but what this is, is subject to interpretation. I’m sure Obama believes he went through due process through his legal maneuverings.

I’m sure that FDR felt he was legally justified in taking away the freedom of Japanese Americans during World War II. Woodrow Wilson also jailed thousands of Americans without normal due process during World War I.

Many things presidents have done have been very questionably legally and morally, but if thy are upheld by the constitutionally mandated courts of the land then they are technically legal.

We can say the Constitution says otherwise, but the opinion of a U.S. citizen does not make law.

If citizens to not like certain laws then they can pressure Congress to write better laws that are more just – as well as clearly written.

One of Blayne’s concerns is that Obama’s action will set a bad precedent so in the future a President could pick on someone he just doesn’t like, declare him a terrorist and take him out.

If we had a dictatorship this could happen, but a dictator doesn’t need any precedent. But what about this concern as it applies to our current system? Is this something we should lose sleep over?

Oct 17, 2011

Legalities

I’ve been thinking of a conclusion on the legality of Obama’s decision to take out Awlaki that we could all agree on. Blayne seems to have strong opinion that the act was flat out illegal and unconstitutional, but there are arguments in both directions and it is always important to see the logic of both sides. I thought this New York Times article was fairly balanced on the issue:

NYT Link

Another Link

Here’s my conclusion that I would like Blayne and Duke to consider and would also like comments from the rest of the group.

My Conclusion: Obama’s taking out Awlaki, an American citizen, was controversial with some believing it to be illegal and others legal. In reality if it was clearly illegal the ACLU (which thinks it is illegal), Ron Paul and hundreds of Obama’s Republican enemies in power could bring Obama and others up on charges.

Since this hasn’t happened, nor is likely (and the courts seem to support Obama’s action) we have to conclude that the action was technically legal enough for Obama to proceed with impunity.

This is not an attempt to judge whether or not the action was morally right or wrong but merely to reach consensus on the legality of the issue.

Note: This part of the process has nothing to do with soul contact but we are merely using our minds and best judgment to go as far as we can on our own.

Oct 17, 2011
Re: The Governing Principle

Blayne: Hitler came to power in a democratic election (yeah I know it was not a majority) still he did not seize power by brute force. He did not just implement his plan over night. He gradually implemented it over time.

JJ Actually Hitler did not receive enough votes to become Chancellor. Because of the lack of majority needed he managed to use his influence to get himself appointed. After that, things did not change gradually but was pretty much overnight. He used the full force of his will and power from the moment he took office.

Oct 18, 2011
Re: Conclusion for Consideration

Okay, we are at step one in this harmony seeking process concerning Obama’s termination of Anwar al-Awlaki.

In the beginning I thought Obama broke the law in his action and I think several others did also. But then after studying the details I can see the logic in the legal argument on both sides. The law in this case is not clearly demarked and seems to favor Obama’s action. Even though a number disagree and threaten legal action it is doubtful that Obama will wind up in any trouble over this.

In the early days of this country we published wanted posters stating: “Wanted Dead or Alive.” A reward was offered to anyone who would bring outlaws (U.S. Citizens) in dead with no trial, no judge and no jury. This idea of going after obvious criminals without a jury trial is not new.

It appears that everyone but Blayne who has responded agrees that the matter is not black or white – that Obama could be legally justified.

From the Beginning Blayne took the stance that the action was just plain black and white, crystal clear illegal and unconstitutional and nothing was going to change his mind.

Nothing did.

He still thinks the same way, hasn’t budged an inch, and sees absolutely no value in any argument or legal defense made. It would appear that if God, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington appeared to him to show him any error in his thinking he would not consider changing his mind.

I would admonish Blayne to consider this. He alone is holding to his view with absolutely no wiggle room. We have an intelligent group here. If they are intelligent and this case is so crystal clear to anyone with a brain – then why cannot even one other person see with this crystal clear vision you have?

Is it possible that you are holding on to your interpretation so tightly that you are not looking at or considering the other side?

If you know the sky is blue and someone says it is green then you feel justified in flat out rejecting them because the truth is so obvious. But civil law is not so black and white. It has shades of gray and it appears to me and others here that there are shades of gray in judging the legality of Obama’s action.

I’d like to hear feedback from the group on this.

Next question.

It appears that Obama’s legal team has worked pretty much in secret and wrote up a 50 page legal memo justifying the action. Parts of this memo have been leaked but the process and the details are kept secret.

Is Obama justified in this? If not what should he have done?

Oct 18, 2011
Letter of the Law
Quoting JJ In the early days of this country we published wanted posters stating: “Wanted Dead or Alive.” A reward was offered to anyone who would bring outlaws (U.S. Citizens) in dead with no trial, no judge and no jury. This idea of going after obvious criminals without a jury trial is not new.

Blayne: So you think this justifies killing American citizens without trial?

JJ We haven’t got to this yet in the process I am attempting to guide. We are just dealing with whether the action was legal or not.

Blayne Nowhere have I said this sort of thing is new.

JJ You had me fooled. Here is what you said in post # 54101

“This sort of thing is unprecedented in American history and is the act of a dictator pure and simple. This is not supposed to happen in America.”

You have also talked about this setting a bad precedent many times as if such a precedent had not been set before.

In truth there have been many times American Citizens have been executed without a trial with the blessing (right or wrong) of the legal powers.

Placing a bounty on outlaws “dead or alive” is just one example. If you are worried about precedent that is a much more egregious one than the Awlaki case.

Blayne: You act like I have just dismissed everyone’s arguments without consideration when I have explained my reasoning on every point some many times.

JJ Just because you give your reasoning (which is in this case unconvincing) does not mean you have considered the opposing views. It sounds more like your mind was just set in stone and you found what you were looking for – for you anyway, but not for anyone else here.

Blayne; Yeah we have nearly 200 years of due process meaning trial by jury as defined in the 6th Amendment and Article III, Section 2, Paragraph [3] of the US constitution and wars being handled by formal declaration and lesser actions by letters of marque and reprisal but I am the one being unreasonable here because we have departed from those sound principles of freedom in the later half of the 20th century… OK…

JJ I agree with you (as I am sure many others here) that in many cases we have gone astray from the original Constitution and original intent. In many cases it has been to our detriment, but others not so much. Let us take that section of the Constitution you referenced. It reads:

“The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.”

Like many laws there is more than one way to interpret this.

Is it saying that all crimes must be tried by a jury or is it telling us how to handle all crimes that are to be tried by a jury?

I haven’t checked but judges must have not gone by the first interpretation because most crimes are NOT tried by a jury. Even in the crime of murder only 20% of those caught wind up before a jury. For the letter-of-the-law guy this would be unconstitutional.

If we followed the letter of the surface interpretation here the legal system would be so bogged down that there would be no justice served anywhere.

Judges here were forced to discover wiggle room or face disaster.

Blayne: So by this logic I should just give in to peer pressure and ignore my own reason and logic when nothing has been presented that refutes my logic?

JJ No. I would never suggest this. I have always advised to follow the highest you know and for all of us the highest we know will be wrong at times.

The disciple must continually question and examine the highest he knows and challenge himself to see from a higher angle of vision. If he does this continually then the highest he knows will he more accurate as his life proceeds.

In your case, you are surrounded with other seekers who are also intelligent. When none seem to agree with you on this legality (that I have seen) then it would be wise to ask yourself if there is something you are not seeing. Is there a blind spot, an illusion, a dogma held too close etc?

I know you do this at times but it doesn’t seem to happen in the midst of an argument. In your quiet moments, where you have time to think, you do digest higher soul guidance and you are indeed making progress overall.

Blayne: After saying I would be trying very hard to consider the other sides point of view what makes you think I have not?

JJ Not only in this case but in many other arguments I have seen powerful evidence presented that you are not correct and you either dismiss it or ignore it and change the subject.

In this case, the greatest legal minds in the country are looking at the situation and most do not see the issue as black and white the way you do, yet you dismiss them. If you were adhering to some principle I could give you some slack but legalese deals more with data and angles of interpretation than principles.

Blayne: So far I have just been lectured on why I have not considered anyone else’s view. I asked folks to point out where they think I am wrong but I only get why they think they are right without addressing my points and reasoning.

JJ Yet you have offered even weaker arguments as to why you are right. The Jefferson story makes little sense to me concerning your case.

Blayne: Apparently not giving in to peer pressure means to you I must not have considered the other sides point of view.

JJ If this happens time and time again then it may be a sign you need to examine your thought process.

There was only a couple times where Churchill had to stand against the many. More often than not his logic was strong enough that the many stood with him.

Blayne: So does considering the other sides point of view mean I should not give counter points where ever I see them? Heaven forbid of those that responded could they all be wrong?

JJ You are on the right course by being honest and speaking your mind. If you are not correct on some issues then (if you are honest with yourself) then you will eventually make corrections. I am hoping this little exercise will make that time come sooner rather than later.

Quoting JJ: If you know the sky is blue and someone says it is green then you feel justified in flat out rejecting them because the truth is so obvious. But civil law is not so black and white. It has shades of gray and it appears to me and others here that there are shades of gray in judging the legality of Obama’s action.

Blayne: Believe me I know firsthand that civil law is anything but black and white. The constitution is pretty black and white though and we have ample writings from the founders on their intended meanings written into it.

JJ I don’t think the Constitution is black and white at all. If it were we wouldn’t have thousands of different interpretations arising from it. Many Fundamentalist Christians think the Bible is black and white as they read it, but obviously it is not which is evidenced by thousands of different interpretations.

Blayne: How many of you have even read this law that you think may give Obama legal authority? Correct me if I am wrong but none of you have even read it right? So how can you make any judgment never having read it not knowing the facts of what it actually says?

JJ I’ve read legal interpretations concerning this and it sounds more plausible than someone just shouting “follow the Constitution!”

Blayne Where is the wiggle room in the 5th and 6th amendments that no American can be deprived of life liberty and property without due process and the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury?

JJ Let’s look at the pertinent language of these two:

Fifth Amendment: “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, … be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;”

JJ In Awlaki’s case the due process was conducted by the President and his legal team. So far this has been accepted by the Constitutional judges of the land. It can indeed be argued that Awlaki had due process and the process deliberated for about a year on the matter. That is much more consideration than most criminals have.

Sixth Amendment In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State …

JJ As I said earlier this usually doesn’t happen because it is not practical and if it did justice would be destroyed. It doesn’t say that every lawbreaker will be subject to regular criminal prosecution. Awlaki was not even subject to a regular criminal prosecution so this does not even apply to him.

Blayne: People say the 2nd amendment is not black and white on bearing arms either however it is about as black and white as it gets when is say the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

JJ I agree with you that this amendment is pretty black and white and those that say that only militias can have guns are being disingenuous.

Blayne: You also seem to be ignoring that I said even if we accept this law as legal that Obama has still over stepped even that.

JJ That may or may not be true but I am trying to go one step at a time.

Blayne As far as being legal lets take your version of legal to its logical conclusion. Do you think interning Japanese Americans who committed no crime or act of war was legal? After all it was justified because of war and done based in interpretation of the Presidents legal power to conduct war. This is another case where the majority was in agreement and but they were wrong. If congress passes a law that it is ok for congressmen and Judges to rape women at will and the courts uphold it is that legal? After all it went through the legislative and judicial process so it must be technically legal right?

JJ I think rather than asking if such things are legal you should be asking if they are right? That which is legal is not always the right or moral thing. If Congress passed a law saying that women could be raped and it was upheld by judges then it would be legal, but it would be immoral as it has always been.

Again, what is being asked is this: Was Obama’s action legal? The question was NOT: Was Obama’s action the best of all possible choices.

Oct 19, 2011
Question Three

Blayne and I are still dissecting the first question – Is it legal? – but let’s move ahead on some others.

Here was the second question.

It appears that Obama’s legal team has worked pretty much in secret and wrote up a 50 page legal memo justifying the action. Parts of this memo have been leaked but the process and the details are kept secret.

Is Obama justified in this? If not what should he have done?

My thanks to the few who responded to this. I think the group will agree with my conclusion here which is:

It’s fine if he checks with his attorneys in secret and has them do some research and write up a memo. But to proceed with a controversial action he should be sure enough of his legal correctness that he can release all the legal justification around the decision.

LWK made a good point in that he promised an open administration, supposedly the opposite of Bush, but he is even more secretive than Bush was.

Awlaki has been a target for some time so the legal justification for taking him out should have been out there for all to examine from the beginning. If the legality receives a serious challenge and he thinks it is essential to continue then Congress would need to pass legislation placing the action on more secure legal grounds.

Unless I hear some disagreement with this conclusion I will assume that all feel this is reasonable.

Next question: For this question let us assume that it would be legal to assassinate Awlaki and Obama is open and honest about the legalities, motives and details connected with it. The next natural question is would such an action be the right thing to do?

This question has already been tossed around like crazy and no agreement has been reached. Instead of asking that question now let us ask this?

If such an action were legal under what circumstances would it be the right thing to do?

 

Copyright 2011 by J J Dewey

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The White Horse Prophecy

This entry is part 31 of 50 in the series 2011A

Constitution Hanging by a Thread

During these times of international stress, threats of revolution and internal threats to our country and the Constitution itself an increasing number of people are quoting from The White Horse Prophecy said to be given by Joseph Smith in May of 1843. Among other things he said:

“You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed; it will hang by a thread, and that thread as fine as the finest silk fiber.”

At this point the Prophet’s countenance became sad; because as he said, “I love the Constitution;

“It was made by the inspiration of God,

“And it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse (LDS Elders – or gathered lights) and the Red Horse (American Indians) who will combine in its defense.

…”There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese, unless great care and protection are given.

This was recorded by Edwin Rushton in a notarized statement with the following testimony:

“The words of the Prophet made a strong impression upon me. I have never forgotten them. On an occasion about two weeks later, after I first heard him speak these words, I was at a meeting where he preached a sermon, which he said would be the greatest of his life. On that occasion he reiterated the matter which I have now written, so that the subject became firmly rooted in my memory, and I know them to be true. Now, therefore, I testify that these are the inspired words spoken by the Prophet, Joseph Smith, as he stood looking up into heaven. His countenance became white and transparent; he looked as if he had as much of the Heavenly influence as he could bear and stay with the saints. His voice was powerful and his words cut like a two-edged sword.”
THE WHITE HORSE PROPHECY by Ogden Kraut, Page 25

The strange thing about this prediction is that even though it seems to have an eerie probability of coming to pass that the authorities in the church have distanced themselves from the prediction many calling it spurious. Not only that but many who quote from it are blacklisted and find their membership is in danger.

It is strange indeed that the apparent heroes of the prophesy fight against quoting that very prophesy. Perhaps the White Horse was more of a symbol of the Gathering of Lights than the church itself.

Here is a quote from the famous church Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:
“From time to time, accounts of various supposed visions, revelations, and prophecies are spread forth by and among the Latter-day Saints, who should know better than to believe or spread such false information. One of these false and deceptive documents that has cropped up again and again for over a century is the so-called White Horse Prophecy. This supposed prophecy purports to be a long and detailed account by the Prophet Joseph Smith concerning the wars, turmoils, and difficulties which should exist in the last days.”

It is interesting that there is so much resistance to the “hanging by a thread quote because there are many quote available attributed to early church leaders who actually knew Joseph Smith. It appears that Joseph may have given this statement out on numerous occasions. Here are a few examples:

CONSTITUTION TO HANG BY A THREAD. The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde: “I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.” Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, p. 326

An occasional theme among Latter-day Saints during times of political crisis has been the prediction attributed to Joseph Smith that the U.S. Constitution would one day hang by a thread and that the elders of the Church would at some critical juncture be instrumental in saving it. The source of this statement is thought to be an unpublished address titled, “A Few Items from a Discourse Delivered by Joseph Smith, July 19, 1840,” filed in the Joseph Smith Papers in the LDS Church Archives. Written neatly on 8”x12” paper, the document is obviously a copy since it shows none of the usual characteristics of an original report. The paper appears to be of post-Nauvoo vintage, and the handwriting does not correspond to that of any of Joseph Smith’s known clerks. Nor is there reference in the Prophet’s History to his having delivered a discourse on 19 July 1840. Furthermore, at two points in the text, there appears to be a serious problem of continuity, suggesting copyist’s errors or some other flaw in the manuscript. Consequently, in the absence of an original text, and without information about its origin and authorship, the reliability of this document has remained somewhat tenuous.
The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 390

Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.
Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844

How long will it be before the words of the Prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.
Brigham Young, JD 12:204, April 8, 1868, Latter Day Prophets Speaks. Pg. 230

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.
Brigham Young, JD 2:182, February 18, 1855, Latter Day Prophets Speaks. Pg. 230

When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations. This is part of the program and as long as we do what is right and fear God He will help us and stand by us under all circumstances.
John Taylor, JD 21:8, August 31, 1879

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so.
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, July 4, 1854

The History of the Church account is an amalgamation of the reports in the Joseph Smith Diary and the Nauvoo Neighbor. The report by Levi Richards is here published for the first time. A reminiscent account of this discourse by James Burgess contains the essential details found in the other three accounts published here, and adds that the “Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread.” / In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it. / General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was present on the occasion. I James Burgess was present and testify to the above
(James Burgess Notebook, Church Archives). (Ehat & Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, 6 May 1843 Note, p. 279)

If tradition can be relied upon, Joseph Smith prophesied that the Elders of Israel would save this Nation in the hour of its extremest peril. At a time when anarchy would threaten the life of the Government, and the Constitution be hanging as by a thread, the maligned and misunderstood “Mormons”—always patriotic, and necessarily so from the very genius of their religion—would stand firm upon Freedom’s rocky ramparts, and as champions of law and order, liberty and justice, call to their aid in the same grand cause kindred [p.61] spirits from every part of the nation and from every corner of the world.
Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, Box 1, March 10, 1844 Also: D. Michael Stewart, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1976, 64-65

Eliza R. Snow said, “I heard the prophet say, The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints-the Elders of Israel-will step forward to its rescue and save it.
In a Pioneer Day celebration in Ogden in 1871 – Journal History, MSF 143 #28, July 24, 1871

Jedediah M. Grant, during the dark days of threatened invasion of Utah by a federal army, referred to the Prophet’s utterance as he addressed a Mormon Battalion gathering in Salt Lake City, February 6, 1855. “What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe.”
Deseret News Weekly, January 19, 1870

After reading a chapter in Ezekiel, the parable of the 12 olive trees in D&C 101:44-62, and referring to the Redemption of Zion, he said: We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace until the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c—Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad when the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear away the constitution away from the very verge of destruction—Then shall the Lord say go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house my young men and middle aged &c come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord—Then the Kings & Queens shall come then the rulers of the Earth shall come then shall ail saints come yea the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the Land of my vineyard for in this thing shall be their safety and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction—But before this the time shall be these who are now my friends shall become my enemies and shall seek to take my life and are there are those now before me who will more furiously pursue me and the more diligently seek to my life and be more blood thirsty upon my track than ever were the Missouri Mobbers You say among yourselves as did them of old time it is I & is it I But I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.
Smith, Joseph. “Howard and Martha Coray Notebook, 19 July 1840″. The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph. Comp. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook. Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991. 415-418

In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it. / General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was present on the occasion. / I James Burgess was present and testify to the above (James Burgess Notebook, Church Archives).
Smith, Joseph. “Howard and Martha Coray Notebook, 1 July 1840″. The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph. Comp. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook. Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991.Page 279

And here is the entire White Horse Prophecy:

1. On or about the sixth day of May, 1843, a grand review of the Nauvoo Legion was held in Nauvoo. The Prophet Joseph complimented them for their good discipline and evolutions performed. The weather being hot, he called for a glass of water.

2. With the glass of water in his hand, he said, “I will drink you a toast to the overthrow of the mobocrats,” which he did in language as follows: “Here’s wishing they were in the middle of the sea, in a stone canoe with iron paddles, and a shark swallow the canoe, and the Devil swallow the shark, and him locked up in the northwest corner of Hell, the key lost and a blind man hunting for it.”

3. The next morning a man who had heard the Prophet give the toast here referred to, visited the mansion of the Prophet, and so abused him with bad language, that he was ordered out by the Prophet.

4. It was while the two were out, that my attention was attracted to them, and hearing the man speaking in a loud tone of voice, I went toward them, the man finally leaving. There were then present the Prophet Joseph Smith, Theodore Turley and myself. The Prophet began talking to us of the mobbings and drivings, the persecutions we as a people had endured. “But,” said he, “We will have worse things to see; our persecutors will have all the mobbings they want. Don’t wish them any harm, for when you see their sufferings, you will shed tears for them.”

5. While this conversation was going on, we stood by his south wicker gate in a triangle. Turning to me, he said, “I want to tell you something. In the future I will speak in parables like unto John, the Revelator.” (Little did I then think the prophet of the Lord would so soon be slain in cold blood.)

6. Continuing, he said, “You will go to the Rocky Mountains, and you will see a great and mighty people established, which I will call the White Horse of Peace and Safety.”

7. When the Prophet said, “You will see,” I asked him where he would be at that time.” He answered, “I shall never go there.”

8. “Your enemies will continue to follow you with persecutions, and they will make obnoxious laws against you in Congress to destroy the White Horse.

9. “But you will have a friend or two to defend you and throw out the worst part of the laws, so they will not hurt much.

10. “You must continue to petition Congress all the time, but they will treat you like strangers and aliens, and they will not give you your rights but will govern you with strangers and commissioners;

11. “You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed; it will hang by a thread, and that thread as fine as the finest silk fiber.”

12. At this point the Prophet’s countenance became sad; because as he said, “I love the Constitution;

13. “It was made by the inspiration of God,

14. “And it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse and the Red Horse who will combine in its defense.

15. “The White Horse will raise an ensign on the tops of the mountains of peace and safety where all nations may flee unto for safety.

16. “The White Horse will find the mountains full of minerals, and they will become very rich. You will find silver piled up in the streets. (At this time, it must be remembered that it was not known that the precious metals existed either in the Rocky Mountains or in California.) You will see gold shoveled up like sand.

17. “Gold will be but of little value even in a mercantile capacity, for the people of the world will have something else to do in seeking for salvation.

[21] 18.”The time will come when the banks in every nation will fail, and only two places will be safe where the people can deposit their gold and treasure. These places will be with the White Horse and England’s vaults.

19. “A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before, for the land will be literally left without a supreme government, and every species of wickedness will run rampant; it will be so terrible that father will be against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother. The most terrible scenes of murder and bloodshed and rapine that have ever been looked upon will take place.

20. “Peace will be taken from the earth, and there will be no peace only in the Rocky Mountains. This will cause hundreds and thousands of the honest in heart of the world to gather there, not because they would be saints, but for safety, and because they would not take up the sword against their neighbors.

21. “You will be so numerous that you will be in danger of famine, but not for the want of seed time and harvest, but that so many will have to be fed. Many will come with bundles under their arms to escape the calamities, and there will be no escape, only by fleeing to Zion.

22. “Those that come to you will try and keep the laws and be one with you, for they will see your unity and the greatness of your organizations.

23. “The Turkish Empire or the Crescent will be one of the first powers that will be disrupted as a power, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to be preached in the Holy Land.

24.”The Lord took of the best blood of the nations, and planted them on the small island now called England, or Great Britain, and gave them great powers in the nations for a thousand years, and this power will continue with them, that they may keep the balance of power, that they may keep Russia from usurping power over all the world.

25. “England and France are now bitter enemies, but they will be allied together in order to keep Russia from conquering the world.

26. “The two Popes, Greek and Catholic, will come together and be united. The Protestant religions do not know how much they are indebted to Henry VIII for throwing off the Pope’s bull and establishing the Protestant faith. He was the only monarch that could do so at the time, and he did it because the nation was at his back to sustain him.

27. One of the peculiar features in England is the established red coat, a uniform making so remarkable a mark to shoot at, and yet they have conquered wherever they have gone. The reason for this will be known by them some day. The Lion and the Unicorn of England is the ensign of Israel. The wisdom and statesmanship of England comes from there being so much of the blood of Israel in the nation.

28. “While the terrible revolution of which mention has been made is going on, England will be neutral until it becomes so inhuman that she will interfere to stop the shedding of blood. England and France will then unite together and come with intention to make peace, not to subdue the nation. They will find the nation so broken up and so many claiming government, still there will be no [23] responsible government. Then it will appear to the other nations or powers as though England had taken possession of the country.

29. “The Black Horse will flee to the invaders and will join with them, for they will have fear of becoming slaves again, knowing England does not believe in slavery, fleeing to them, they believed would make them safe. Armed with British bayonets, the doings of the Black Horse will be terrible.”

30. So the Prophet said he could not bear to look longer upon the scene as shown him in vision, that he asked the Lord to close the scene.

31. Continuing, he said: “During this time, the great White Horse will have gathered strength, sending out elders to get the honest in heart of the United States to stand by the Constitution of the United States, as it was given by inspiration of the Lord.

32. “In these days, God will set up a kingdom, never to be thrown down, for other kingdoms to come unto, and these kingdoms that will not let the Gospel be preached will be humbled until they will.

33. “England, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, and Belgium have a considerable amount of the blood of Israel among their people, which must be gathered. These nations will submit to the Kingdom of God. England will do it as a whole, in comparison as she threw off the Catholic power. The nobility know the Gospel is true, but it has not enough pomp and grandeur and influence for them to embrace it. They are proud and will not acknowledge the Kingdom of God, or come unto it until they see the power which it will have.

34. “Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by a cord and band of the White Horse and the Red Horse.

35. “The coming of the Ten Tribes of Israel, the coming of the Messiah among His people, will be so natural that only those who see Him will know He has come, but He will come and give His law unto Zion and minister unto His people. This will not be His coming in the clouds of heaven to take vengeance on the world.

36. The Temple in Jackson County will be built in this generation. The saints will think there will not be time to build it, but with all the great help you will receive, you can put up a great temple quickly. You will have gold, silver, and precious stones, for these things only will be used for beautifying the temple, all the skilled mechanics you want, and the Ten Tribes of Israel to help you build it. When you see this land bounded with iron, you may look toward Jackson County.”

37. At this point he made a pause, and looking up as though the vision was still in view, he said, “There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese, unless great care and protection are given. Speaking of the heathen, where there is no law there is no condemnation; this will apply to them.

38. “Power will be given the White Horse to rebuke nations afar off and they will obey, not that they will be one with the White Horse, but when the law goes forth, they will obey, for the law will go forth from Zion.

39. “The last great struggle Zion will have to contend with will be when the whole of America will be made the Zion of God.

40. “Those opposing will be called Gog and Magog The nations of the world led by the Russian Czar and their power, will be great, but all opposition will be overcome, and this land will be then the Zion of our God.” * * * * *

Majority Will vs Representative

This entry is part 24 of 62 in the series 2010

Posted Aug 13, 2010

Blayne writes:
I finished reading Eternal Words yesterday again. Yes I said again, interestingly I didn’t remember having read it until I began reading it again. Or at least I think I read parts of it online that JJ posted while writing it. Excellent and exciting read well done JJ!

I have a question/comment… I noticed the BOL would not support the books with their spiritual power and influence unless they were in unanimous agreement and not majority rules unless I am interpreting this wrong somehow? I do see that they allowed them to go forward but withheld their spiritual endorsement so to speak. So in that sense there is majority rule on that part but on the weightier matter of throwing their spiritual endorsement behind it they would not unless it was unanimous. Do I have this right?

This actually appealed to me, as I have mentioned I have experimented with some groups where we used this approach and it actually worked out quite well to my surprise. However our caveat was that if you raised an objection you had to bring a remedy along with it. This really cut the objections down quite a bit as lots of folks like to complain but few have a solution to their complaint. This was in a group of about 30 people. When someone raised an objection and brought a remedy the focus was on; will the remedy work and be better, also on modifying the remedy, or why it wouldn’t work. This kept the focus more on constructively trying to solve the problem instead of just bitching and moaning.

JJ
Glad you enjoyed the book.

You are seeing correctly here. The masters do not use the majority rule and the Molecular Relationship does not teach it or practice it. I have outlined in some detail how this works in my book The Molecular Relationship.

So why do I teach majority rule as a current political solution but not for the molecules? Here is the reason.

The Molecular Relationship is basically representative government with the right to vote the leaders in and out. The main way it differs from our Constitution is that a vote can be called for at any time.

Unfortunately, this type of government only works efficiently when there is little or no corruption and the most enlightened gravitate to the top with the power to replace them at any time a mistake is seen. In the current situation the most corrupt rise to the top and become little tyrants.

Among the Masters, representative government works well because the enlightened rise to the top. One important ingredient that causes this is in the Molecular Relationship the leader can be voted out at any time. This puts constant pressure on the leader to respect majority will except in the exceptional times he sees a controversial move that the others do not.

Because of corruption and power grabs of the unenlightened the representative system is not working for us and the majority of the people see with much more clarity than do our elected officials. Therefore, working with majority will makes sense at this time. The great part about it is that if you work with majority will you can eventually get to a greater place of power than any of those representing minority will as is the case today.

It is interesting that even though the Molecular Relationship is representative that it almost always represents majority will.

But…

In our system minority will is represented much more than the majority.

If the representative system is working properly then the majority will be represented around 90% of the time. If it is represented only half the time or less then it needs to be replaced by direct majority rule.

Finally, here is the danger if corruption goes to the limit. When this happens both the majority of the representatives and the majority of the people desire the wrong thing. At this point the nation is doomed to collapse. We are not there yet as the majority still have a little sense. How much longer they can be usable to turn things around I know not. Not that long. – so we must act.
Copyright 2010 by J J Dewey