2000 - WEEK 22

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15791
From: Diane Linen
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Craig Tholson wrote: "I am the lone man out here, it looks like. I welcome your input. If brilliant, 
you will shine. If dark, you will be the undoing of yourself."
   Not necessarily, Craig. Your possible outcome is quite true. Brilliance shines, darkness doesn't. 
diane

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15792
From: Rick Audette 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
Well......
   Time was when I'd let these scenes play out over time, to see what growth the group, as a 
whole might get from watching them. These types always begin to push my buttons from the 
start, but I would exercise patience and let them stay. Now, times have changed, members have 
gained a certain oneness in their desires to keep this list on topic and have seen enough of these 
disruptions to have learned that they want it snipped in the bud. I won't go into a long list of 
reasons, unless asked, but I have decided to remove Alan/Andrew/Darne from the list.
Nuff said,
Rick

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15793
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: Evil from Good
   J J Dewey wrote: "Djwahl Khul made an interesting statement about disease that applies to out 
social ills."
   "Disease, both physical and psychological, has its roots in the good, the beautiful and the true. 
It is but a distorted refection of divine possibilities. The thwarted soul, seeking full expression of 
some divine characteristic or inner spiritual reality, produces within the substance of its sheaths a 
point of friction. Upon this point the eyes of the personality are focused, and this leads to 
disease."
   About physical healing through non local consciousness, here is a site about Russell Targ's 
teachings:
http://www.espresearch.com/

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15794
From: J J Dewey 
Subject: Look for Principles
   Interesting post by Darne. Sounds like we may have pushed some buttons. It's always a good 
test to ask someone who considers himself a super being to present us with a new principle or 
even an expansion of a revealed one. So far not a single person I have met who has claimed to 
be a great one has been able to reveal even one. There's always lots of imaginative data and 
often fanciful new words which any creative mind can produce, but never a principle.
   Buddha taught the principle of the Middle Way, Christ taught and demonstrated the principle of 
Love and sacrifice as it had never been revealed before, Joseph Smith revived the principle of 
revelation which the masses though no longer in existence, Djwahl Khul through Alice A. Bailey 
taught many principles prominent among them is his expansion of the Law of Correspondences.
   Any claim I may have for your attention is not based on any proclamation that I am a great 
being past or present. If you or I speak the truth it matters not who or what we are for truth is true 
irrespective of status in the minds of men.
   If the lowest of humanity teaches that 2+2=4 it is just as true as if the Christ Himself were to 
proclaim it. This is why we have stressed the principle of soul contact so much because if one 
has such contact then the 2+2=4 as a truth is what has meaning and strikes a chord, not the fact 
that it was uttered by a greater or a lessor teacher.
   It doesn't matter to me if a man claims to be Peter, God, or a turkey who has become Joe-Blow 
- even if I believed his claim I would still look at his words and sense whether or not the Holy 
Spirit lives in those words.
   The actual words of Jesus, as recorded in the Bible, for instance, has withstood the test of time 
because they do indeed stir the soul and strike the chords of the Spirit within.
   If you ever want to give me a meaningful compliment do not seek to equate me with a great one 
in the past, or even see me as any more than you are in the present. That which warms my heart 
are comments that my words have stirred your souls and have caused a chord of recognition to 
ring within yourself. Tell me that my words have set love aflame within your breast and your spirit 
has soared as the eagle.
   If you tell me this then we are equal for your words and love have done this for me.
   Let me pick on one of our members who often underestimates himself - our friend Rob. He 
recently expressed doubts to me about his ability to reach soul contact, but I submit to you that he 
demonstrates more contact than any guru that you could name that is floating around the internet.
   Take a look at his post giving a different scenario that he thinks may occur if a militant 
vegetarian took over the country. The only mistake he made is that he thinks he is disagreeing 
with me. No Rob, I do not disagree with you at all. You used the Law of Correspondences and 
correlated the known with the unknown - a known war on drugs to a unknown war on meat.
   You correlated your analogy with the system as it is today, but I used an example of a dictator 
with absolute power and in presenting two points of view I think we both worked together to 
present the reality that the principle of freedom is not widely understood in the world today - and 
even if it is understood by some, it is not trusted.
   The fact that Rob was able to wisely use a principle (the Law of Correspondences) to illustrate 
another principle (freedom) shows indeed a degree of soul contact. He needs to trust that inner 
sense (that comes from the soul) and pay attention to it. Then it will not be long before the still 
small voice becomes an inner flame that cannot be ignored.
   The greatest fire is created by the tiniest most imperceptible spark.
   Even so soul contact begins as such a "small voice" that you think it is your imagination. But 
each time you trust in it the flame is fanned and grows until the light therefrom is bright and the 
heat is sure and your faith is replaced by knowledge.
   I will speak more about the principle of freedom tomorrow, but until then I will leave you with 
more questions to consider.
   Answer yes or no and explain...
   Is the principle of freedom in play if
(1) The majority benefit and have more freedom?
(2) The minorities benefit and have more freedom?
(3) If you or your family benefit and have more freedom?
(4) If every man woman and child gets a thousand dollar check in the mail from the government?
(5) If there were no government?
   "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have 
been doing so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."
Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey
All Rights Reserved

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15795
From: Marylin
Subject: Re: Look for Principles
J J writes:
"Is the principle of freedom in play if:
"(1) The majority benefit and have more freedom?"
   Only for the majority. If the minority do not benefit, then where is the principle of freedom?
"(2) The minorities benefit and have more freedom?"
   Only for the minority. If the majority do not benefit, then where is the principle of freedom?
"(3) If you or your family benefit and have more freedom?"
   Only for myself or my family. My neighbor may not benefit.
"(4) If every man woman and child gets a thousand dollar check in the mail from the 
government?"
   Depends on how much they love money. But when it's gone, where is the principle of freedom 
then?
"(5) If there were no government?"
   Hmmmmmmmmm..........interesting question........ I think we need government but with elected 
officials who practice the principles. THEN we would ALL benefit and experience the principle of 
freedom.
Love, Light, Peace and Harmony
Marylin

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15796
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [ OT] Term Limits ( was Re: Freedom)
Travis:
   Are not term limits a form of force?
lk:
   _All_ politics is force.
Travis:
   If an amateur were doing an incredible job would you support them for more terms?
lk:
   No. Let them leave with a clean record before power goes to their head. Term limits could also 
apply to consecutive terms, i.e., "retire" for a term, and then be eligible again.
Travis:
   There is a simpler solution.
   Restrict government to the actions SPECIFICLY DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION.
lk:
   Agreed. However I think term limits for members of Congress should be made part of the 
Constitution.
Travis:
   If you simply made term limits a reality you would just get new crooks to choose from.
lk:
   Not really. Many men and women go off to Congress and don't really become totally corrupt 
until they get reelected a couple times. This is a well noted phenomenon. Look at Orrin Hatch, for 
example.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15797
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: [ OT ] Greed ( was Re: Evil from Good )
Paul:
   My question is why greed is not associated with individualistic capitalism in a democratic 
society the way totalitarianism is associated with communism in an authoritarian society.
lk:
   Actually, "greed" per se doesn't seem to have been the primary characteristic of many of the 
more successful capitalistic innovators of the 19th century (the "golden era" of unregulated 
capitalism). Accomplishment was more their forte. Of course one has to draw a distinction 
between those productive capitalists who created great new enterprises, and industries literally 
on their own -- often against great resistance -- and those other kind of capitalists who simply 
sought to get government to legislate a monopoly for them.
   To think that "greed" was the motive of many of these most productive men who created new 
industries where none had existed before is delusion. I seriously doubt that is what drove men to 
experiment 10,000 times to finally come up with a filament that would actually work in a light bulb, 
or the genius to pay men $5 an hour to work on an assembly line in Detroit.
   Great fortunes often resulted, but it is delusion to believe that that is what drove many of these 
men.
Paul (quoting DK):
   "I would like to suggest that the ideology which is embodied in the vision of the totalitarian 
states is an erroneous but clear-cut response to the Shamballa influence of will; ..."
lk:
   Which is another way of saying, "The road to hell is paved with good [erronious] intentions".

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15798
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
diane:
   Not necessarily, Craig. Your possible outcome is quite true. Brilliance shines, darkness doesn't.
lk:
   Or as the used car salesmen are fond of saying, "Money talks, bullbleep walks".
:):)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15799
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: Look for Principles
JJ:
   Answer yes or no and explain...
   Is the principle of freedom in play if
(1) The majority benefit and have more freedom?
(2) The minorities benefit and have more freedom?
(3) If you or your family benefit and have more freedom?
(4) If every man woman and child gets a thousand dollar
check in the mail from the government?
(5) If there were no government?
LK:
   "No" to all of the above.
   Freedom is a principle and it has nothing to do per se with benefit to the majority, the minority, 
your family, or checks in the mail. It is true that in general that freedom benefits almost everyone, 
but that is not the principle itself.
   Let me quote Ayn Rand once more from the book I previously cited:
   "Freedom, in a political context, means freedom from government coercion. It does not mean 
freedom from the landlord, or freedom from the employer, or freedom from the laws of nature 
which do not provide men with automatic prosperity. It means freedom from the coercive power of 
the state -- and nothing else". [Ayn Rand, "Conservatism: An Obituary," Capitalism: The Unknown 
Ideal ]
   Anarchy, or "no government" is not conducive to freedom either. Without government, without 
some means of placing the use of force under some objective control, then brute force rules. 
Whomever has the largest biceps, sword, the biggest gun, or most ruthless gang wins.
   Men need some form of government. The question is what kind. I think the men who drafted the 
Constitution of the United States had a pretty good clue. :)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15800
From: "Craig Tholson" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   At least we don't burn books here yet.
Love,
Craig
The lone man out
   "Rick Audette" writes: <snip> "Now, times have changed, members have gained a certain 
oneness in their desires to keep this list on topic and have seen enough of these disruptions to 
have learned that they want it snipped in the bud. I won't go into a long list of reasons, unless 
asked, but I have decided to remove Alan/Andrew/Darne from the list."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15801
From: (bink)
Subject: freedom
Hi All,
   The Bill of Rights and the Constitution grants all Americans certain rights.
   Lets look at Income Tax ( I think its the 13th or 16th Amendment) the Constitution clearly states 
that "income tax is VOLUNTARY. wow!!!
   However once a person signs on the dotted line of an IRS document, one is bound till death to 
pay income tax.
   By the way, if one is arrested for tax evasion, one must prove his innocence, and must provide 
evidence against himself. (what happened to the Fifth). Also the IRS (non government 
organization) will seize your paycheck, house, car, all clothing that you, your wife and kids are not 
wearing at the time, kids toys, your kids car if they are living in your house, in other words they 
will put you out on the street with the shirt on your back. (this happened to a friend of mine, it took 
10 years to get to court, the family struggled the whole time, the Irs took every penny from every 
job the father had )
   The members of congress and senators are exempt from paying income tax.
   I think knowledge is freedom, and ignorance is bondage to slavery.
   Is the principle of freedom in play if: 
1.The majority benefit and have more freedom?
   The majority are not required(free) by law to ever start paying income tax, but are they free from 
this tax burden, no because of the illusion all must pay income tax. Some of the tax dollars I pay 
go to organizations that are against my religion, but do I dare not pay the tax.? So I am given the 
freedom or choice to pay tax or not, but what do I choose.?, to pay --- what a wimp I am.
2. The minorities benefit and have more freedom?
   Lyndon LaRoush (not sure of the spelling) freed himself of the income tax, then went to jail. 
Congressmen don't pay income tax, yet they decide where the tax is used. That's freedom.
3. If you or your family benefits and have more freedom?
   Knowledge is Freedom but it came to late. but I can still vote, so there is hope.
4. Government check?
   Isn't that socialism or communism, where is the freedom there?
5. If there were no government?
   no taxes, no rules, no seizers, no law, every man for himself, survival of the fittest How about a 
Constitutional Republic, where all men are equal, we had it, but it slipped away.
Love, Helen

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15802
From: Linda
Subject: Re: Freedom
   i do agree.... nothing just happens : ) I just choose to use my energies in love, this is not to say, 
i sit idly by, and wait for "things" to happen. I, as each one of us, perform my own small miracles 
each and everyday.
peace,joy, love and light all.....Linda

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15803
From: Linda
Subject: good and evil
   Paul Yu wrote: "There is nothing in manifestation which is purely evil as there is none that is 
purely good. The human path is to allow the dark forces of restricting freedom of spirit to lead to 
ever greater spiritual freedom in a continuous inward spiraling."
Paul,
   agree, man's greatest battle of good and evil is the one fought from with 
the soul.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15804
From: Linda
Subject: good and evil
   Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 15803

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15805
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
Craig:
   At least we don't burn books here yet.
Lk:
   Any private organization (which is what essentially this list is) has an inherent right to pursue its 
own purposes and goals. That is not censorship. You might consider the list as constituting 
intellectual private property and those who attempt to use it for purposes contrary to the owners 
as trespassers.
   I for one am glad to see him gone. Don't know if there is anything he could teach -- perhaps 
there is -- but I just don't have enough time, or interest at the moment to wade through all the 
crap it would take to find it. :)
   Whereas I have greatly appreciated many things you have had to say. I hope you don't find my 
attitude offensive, as I very much respect your opinions and have been very impressed by your 
sincerity and deep religious knowledge.
lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15806
From: Sharon and Richard
Subject: Freedom
   Our daughter, who works for the I.R.S. said when we told her the tax was voluntary, & she said, 
yes, and they are taught what to do to those who don't volunteer. 
love to all, sharon 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15807
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
Linda:
   No need then to fear the dark.
Lk:
   If you are referring to the unlamented departure of our deluded brother Alan, then let me say 
that the motivation was not fear, but rather impatience with his delusions. I feel that time is short, 
and there is too much to learn to waste too much time with those whose only teaching is spite, 
frustration, and illusions of grandeur.
   Let me say this. If JJ were to suddenly start telling us whom he thought he was in past lifetimes, 
and then would expect us to be impressed and take his teaching based on that, well then, I would 
drop this list like the proverbial hot potato. :)
   But I don't expect that to happen. JJ has _never_ asked me to believe one iota based on any 
claims to authority other than my own soul.
love....lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15808
From: Diane Linen
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   l finghin wrote: "But I don't expect that to happen. JJ has _never_ asked me to believe one iota 
based on any claims to authority other than my own soul."
   This is the point precisely. 
Diane

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15809
From: Claire
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Lk, this mailing list is a long way from a private organization, even tho most on the list treat it as 
such. And you have on inherent rights to pursue your own purposes and goals. This IS 
censorship. Intellectual private property? HAHAHAHAHA. Dumb private property!!!!
   The list does treat itself like a private party, and anyone new coming in is treated like 
trespassers. If someone tries to sound an alarm you all don't want to listen to it, you all are so 
deluded in your own JJ that he could turn into a frog and you'd never know it, as long as he kept 
croaking to you.
   I said this very thing a week or so ago, when I said this list is like a huddle in a big gymnasium 
of lots of huddles, but now you, lk, have said it better than I, heck, you just came right out and 
said it very plainly.
   Lest you forget, this list is a part of Spiritweb.Org, and the entire list is subject to Rene's 
willingless to let you stay.
Claire
   Lk: "Any private organization (which is what essentially this list is) has an inherent right to 
pursue its own purposes and goals. That is not censorship. You might consider the list as 
constituting intellectual private property and those who attempt to use it for purposes contrary to 
the owners as trespassers. I for one am glad to see him gone. Don't know if there is anything he 
could teach -- perhaps there is -- but I just don't have enough time, or interest at the moment to 
wade through all the crap it would take to find it. :) Whereas I have greatly appreciated many 
things you have had to say. I hope you don't find my attitude offensive, as I very much respect 
your opinions and have been very impressed by your sincerity and deep religious knowledge." 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15810
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Glenys Lowery wrote: "I agree with Clive. We can play enough Loony tunes ourselves without 
importing them."
   This Clive is great. (He sounds like speaking from a passing-by bus, did you notice?) Do you 
still have a website url of yours, Clive?
   Clive Culbertson wrote: "Dear Friends, our list has yet again been blessed by another airhead. 
Rick, any chance we can get rid of this one too?????????? These people need weeded out with 
the first outpouring of crap. May I state again what many have written to me privately; If we get 
someone claiming to be God or one of his chosen holy ones who has a message which has 
nothing to do with the work or writings of JJ Dewey let's get them off the list 
IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!I have neither the time nor patience to put up with any more of these 
bleepheads."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15811
From: Linda
Subject: (no subject)
lk,
   "Indeed, as it should be, each should be in contact with spirit within. pjl*l........... Linda"
   But I don't expect that to happen. JJ has _never_ asked me to believe one iota based on any 
claims to authority other than my own soul.
love....lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15812
From: Paul Yu 
Subject: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good) 
Paul:
   "My question is why greed is not associated with individualistic capitalism in a democratic 
society the way totalitarianism is associated with communism in an authoritarian society."
lk:
   "Actually, "greed" per se doesn't seem to have been the primary characteristic of many of the 
more successful capitalistic innovators of the 19th century (the "golden era" of unregulated 
capitalism). Accomplishment was more their forte. Of course one has to draw a distinction 
between those productive capitalists who created great new enterprises, and industries literally 
on their own -- often against great resistance -- and those other kind of capitalists who simply 
sought to get government to legislate a monopoly for them.
   "To think that "greed" was the motive of many of these most productive men who created new 
industries where none had existed before is delusion. I seriously doubt that is what drove men to 
experiment 10,000 times to finally come up with a filament that would actually work in a light bulb, 
or the genius to pay men $5 an hour to work on an assembly line in Detroit.
   "Great fortunes often resulted, but it is delusion to believe that that is what drove many of these 
men."
Paul (quoting DK):
   "I would like to suggest that the ideology which is embodied in the vision of the totalitarian 
states is an erroneous but clear-cut response to the Shamballa influence of will; ..."
lk:
   "Which is another way of saying, "The road to hell is paved with good [erronious] intentions"."
Paul Yu:
   Was totalitarianism primarily or necessarily associated with communism? Communism actually 
came as an ideal of a divine origin.
   I am talking about facts, not theories. Greed has in fact been going hand in hand with 
individualistic and democracy-based capitalism as totalitarianism with communism. Is this 
association a mere coincidence? Isn't a good associated with an evil and an evil with a good?
   When good and evil are looked at as separate the way described above illusion is born in the 
mind. When applied to the question of freedom, if freedom is referred to as choice between 
alternatives, which supposes separate duality, an illusory concept of freedom is born.
   Freedom is none but the quality of spirit. It is the natural flowing of consciousness whatever the 
choice it may end up with in actuality. It remains free regardless of the circumstances it happens 
to be in or the possibility of making choice.
   Unless identified with the freedom of spirit, which is present in each human being, no one can 
be considered to be truly free regardless of the political or economic system they find themself in, 
which does not but present a facade of freedom. 
   Which is not however saying that we should not attempt to go for what seems to be freer in the 
context of separate duality and thus to go through our separative experiences. For it is in these 
illusory experiences that we will find true freedom within our individual selves. Then and only then 
can a true egalitarian and democratic society become a reality.
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15813
From: Linda
Subject: freewill
   refreshing to see this, as i believe each are where they are intended to be in their personal 
journey, and ours is not to judge .PJL*L..............Linda
   I allow you the universal right of free will to walk your own path, creating steps or to sit a while if 
that is what is right for you. I will make no judgment of these steps, whether they are large or 
small, nor light or heavy or that they lead up or down, for this is just my viewpoint. I see you do 
nothing and judge it to be unworthy and yet it may be that you bring great healing as you stand 
blessed by the light of God.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15814
From: Rick Audette 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   "Lest you forget, this list is a part of Spiritweb.Org, and the entire list is subject to Rene's 
willingless to let you stay. Claire"
   And for those that might not have known, in the first place; Rene has charged each list operator 
with the responsibility to maintain the quality of posts and membership on their respective lists. 
He has also provided the Listops with the tools to do this. At the bottom of each posting to the list 
there is a line which reads (Un)Subscribe via http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/keys-
l.html if you click on it it takes you to a page which defines the Keys list, the general posting 
guidelines at Spiritweb and a doorway into our list's archives. When I click on it, it provides me 
with an additional section, that only I can see, a list of all the members. That list gives me 
everyone's e-mail address, and whether they receive every post or just the daily digest. Also, next 
to each name there is a (-) symbol, which if clicked on will remove them from the list. We are 
given, by Rene, what are acceptable reasons for kicking members off. In Alan's case, I had every 
reason to use the option. Ours is not the first list that he has disrupted. At this point, there is 
enough against him to ban him from all of Spiritweb. I acted in the greatest good for the majority. 
If the majority feel I have done wrong, they can vote me out.
   If a few individuals want to hear what Alan and Darne have to say, they can contact them 
directly at the addresses he provided.
   There is nothing wrong with having an opposing viewpoint to JJ or the majority, but we have, 
more than once, covered the areas of common courtesies and the purposes of this list. If 
individuals can't meet these very minimal requirements, then they need to go start their own mail 
lists. In most cases they have figured that out for themselves and saved me from having to push 
the (-) button. There is nothing to stop them from rejoining later, unless they got kicked off 
Spiritweb. All I see are the member's e-mail addresses. If they get a new one, join the list and 
behave, no one is the wiser. I suspect some disrupters have already done this, in the past, but as 
long as they keep their secret and allow our classes to continue on topic, they are welcome to 
stay. I started this list and set the tone for it, but I also bend over backwards to allow the members 
to run it with free will and democratically. If I err, we'll all hear about it. Now, if there is nothing 
more to say, let's get on with the lessons.
Your List Operator,
Rick
-- 
ICQ # 19753992
visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/
and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html
The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com
have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*
I'm only in it for the thrill

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15815
From: Travis Tabbal 
Subject: Re: Look for Principles
   J J Dewey wrote: "Is the principle of freedom in play if 
(1) The majority benefit and have more freedom?"
   Not necessarily. If they enjoy benefits and freedoms at the detriment of any other people then 
the principle of freedom is not upheld. For true freedom to exist in a particular space, all 
inhabitants of that space must be free. 
"(2) The minorities benefit and have more freedom?"
   Same as #1.
"(3) If you or your family benefit and have more freedom?"
   Again, same as #1.
"(4) If every man woman and child gets a thousand dollar check in the mail from the 
government?"
   Not at all. The government gets its money by removing it from the people by force. Any initiation 
of force is against the principle of freedom. Thus the use of government force to get the money to 
pay everyone one thousand dollars must by definition be against the principle of freedom. 
"(5) If there were no government?"
   Depends on the outcome. Government is an agent of force. In some ways it is a necessary 
agent at this stage of human evolution. A form of structure needs to exist for most people to 
behave themselves. I feel that if there were suddenly no form of government at all people would 
simply arm themselves and defend as needed. Or pay others to do so for them. A form of 
"government" would evolve from there. Much like the old west. People banded together to form 
towns and set up whatever type of government they desired. Then got together to fight off 
outlaws when needed. Which wasn't nearly as often as hollywood would like you to believe. 
   I think our existing government in the US is reasonably good. The problem is we need to again 
bind the power of government in the chains of the constitution. Jefferson warned us about this, 
we didn't listen. Now we are paying the price. 
Travis

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15816
From: Travis Tabbal 
Subject: Re: [ OT] Term Limits ( was Re: Freedom)
   I do not think we disagree much on this. Your solution of making an amendment limiting terms 
is fine with me. If you can get an amendment through the ratification process then I'm perfectly 
fine with it. What you are suggesting is much like the limits on the president. If it's reasonable for 
one office, I'd say it's reasonable for another. And I would probably vote to ratify such an 
amendment. Of course, you have to get it through congress first. And yes, government is force. 
Which is why we should strictly limit it to what is explicitly stated in the Constitution. The entire 
drug war is unconstitutional. Remember, they needed an amendment to do it with alcohol during 
Prohibition. ;)
Travis

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15817
From: Travis Tabbal 
Subject: OT: Freedom and the income tax.
   About the income tax. I suggest everyone take a look at http://www.taxgate.com. They have 
some interesting information. The basic idea is that no US Citizen working in the US is required to 
pay taxes on income derived from a US transaction. Basically, the legal definition of "gross 
income" states that. And if you have no "gross income" then they have nothing to tax. Over the 
years the law has been hidden really well. I'd love to hear some commentary from others about 
the info they have on that site. 
Travis

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15818
From: Paul Yu 
Subject: Re: freewill
   "refreshing to see this, as i believe each are where they are intended to be in their personal 
journey, and ours is not to judge .PJL*L..............Linda"
   "I allow you the universal right of free will to walk your own path, creating steps or to sit a while 
if that is what is right for you. I will make no judgment of these steps, whether they are large or 
small, nor light or heavy or that they lead up or down, for this is just my viewpoint. I see you do 
nothing and judge it to be unworthy and yet it may be that you bring great healing as you stand 
blessed by the light of God."
   As you are thus allowing others to be truly free you are allowing yourself to be truly free from 
the high place of spirit where you principally reside.
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15819
From: Glenys Lowery 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Claire wrote: "If someone tries to sound an alarm you all don't want to listen to it, you all are so 
deluded in your own JJ that he could turn into a frog and you'd never know it, as long as he kept 
croaking to you."
   Claire, can I ask you a question?
   You are constantly criticizing or insulting us. You have said you have a low opinion of us and 
now you are saying we lack judgment and discernment. Yet you hardly contribute anything useful 
to assist us see the great light which you seem to have and we don't.
   Obviously, you feel the way to reach out to people is to condemn them whenever you can. Fine. 
Whatever works for you. But why are you here giving your opinions of us and croaky old JJ?
Love
Glenys
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Lord's Prayer is 66 words,
the Gettysburg Address is 286 words,
and there are 1,322 words in the Declaration of Independence.
Yet, government regulations on the sale of cabbage total 26,911 words.
- David McIntosh

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15820
From: Peter E Monk 
Subject: Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk
   Most people try to make the term Capitalism into a political term when it is a purely ECONOMIC 
term.
   A capitalist system is ANY system, that has something left over at the end of the year, that is 
beneficially useable in the future. In other words it is an economic system that is not Marginal. 
The ECONOMIC reality of capitalism is that ALL non marginal systems are capitalistic.
   The political use of capital is another issue.
   Communism is a political system in which capital is primarily State owned.
   Free Enterprise occurs in a political system in which capital is primarily privately owned.
   Both systems are capitalistic in the economic sense.
   Capitalism is not a political term unless it is qualified as in "State Capitalism" or "Private 
Capitalism.
Paul:
   "Under the system of economic individualism, which has been flourishing in capitalism, greed 
actually takes control over social life to the point of threatening and damaging equality and 
democracy. Where money takes charge in a society freedom of individuals would be impinged 
upon as a result."
Lk:
   "In many instances capitalism takes the blame for inequities it did not create. Feudalism, and 
statism that existed long before capitalism created thousands of times _more_ inequity.
   "As a form of human cooperation, and productivity capitalism is one of the greatest benefactors 
mankind has ever known _because_ it was built primarily on voluntary cooperation. It is a fact 
beyond contesting that it raised the standard of living of humanity in two centuries more than 
anyone or anything else did in the preceding 5,000 years."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15821
From: Peter E Monk 
Subject: Re: OT: Court behavior: Veda
   It would be interesting if lawyers were required to take the same oath as witnesses, and if 
witnesses refused to answer those rigged questions where the lawyer wants a yes or no answer 
which would require the witness to violate the part of the oath that requires the witness to tell the 
whole truth.
   Travis writes: <snip> "Another courtroom idea I love is to let the JURY ask questions. The 
lawyers would have a hissy fit like you can't imagine. But it's the best way to ensure the truth 
comes out." 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15822
From: (Jean)
Subject: A question on the beast
   Dear John, I was watching a movie today, The omen, and it got me thinking again, I know 666 
stands for the beast, and we all know now what the beast is, but when in the book of revelations it 
says the number 666 stands for man, and it says those with wisdom will know, would it be some 
sort of DNA code? What exactly is the 666? or rather the meaning, how does it relate to the 
beast, am I on the right track?
Talk to you later, Jean
My included homepage:
http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15823
From: (Jean)
Subject: OOOPS!!
   Sorry guys, that was meant for someone else, but anyone who can answer that question for 
me, please do, I would appreciate it. :) 
thanks, Jean
My included homepage:
http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15824
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Craig Tholson wrote: "At least we don't burn books here yet."
   Well you haven't seen what these disruptions can lead to. I also wish I had seen the next 
message of bleephead number xyz, but alas... lol
   Yes God speaks through strangest ways lol I admit though, that if you think that Darne is 
valuable, his firing is a pity. (but you still have his website!! Hasn't he got one? lol) (you know, this 
mailing list has a topic : JJ's teachings;-), not JJ's battling with bleepheads;-) (oops bleepheads, 
sorry lol)
   "Rick Audette" wrote: "Well...... Time was when I'd let these scenes play out over time, to see 
what growth the group, as a whole might get from watching them. These types always begin to 
push my buttons from the start, but I would exercise patience and let them stay. Now, times have 
changed, members have gained a certain oneness in their desires to keep this list on topic and 
have seen enough of these disruptions to have learned that they want it snipped in the bud. I 
won't go into a long list of reasons, unless asked, but I have decided to remove 
Alan/Andrew/Darne from the list."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15825
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: A question on the beast
   Jean wrote: "Dear John, I was watching a movie today, The omen, and it got me thinking again, 
I know 666 stands for the beast, and we all know now what the beast is, but when in the book of 
revelations it says the number 666 stands for man, and it says those with wisdom will know, 
would it be some sort of DNA code? What exactly is the 666? or rather the meaning, how does it 
relate to the beast, am I on the right track?"
   666 stands for the personality ruling in the three planes.
   6 is personality (to explain that one, JJ said that the sixth ray influences the solar plexus, which 
is the center of the personality, but I miss some other explanations there)
   666 is one 6 for each plane, mental astral physical.
   Formulas work like that, for instance in true kabbala each sound acts on a plane, usually the 
first one acts on the spiritual plane, the second one on the mental plane, the third on the astral, 
and the fourth on the physical. Thus, a two sounds formula (and sounds and numbers have exact 
correspondences) produces effects until the mental plane (from top down, this is manifestation, 
Word, so this works top down)
   So with 666 we have a formula working on the astral plane? maybe, or maybe the first number 
is omitted for some reason.
   Anyway, and to sum it up, 666 is the personality ruling on the three planes. In other words, 
egoism in full power.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15826
From: Paul Yu 
Subject: Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk
   "Most people try to make the term Capitalism into a political term when it is a purely 
ECONOMIC term.
   "A capitalist system is ANY system, that has something left over at the end of the year, that is 
beneficially useable in the future. In other words it is an economic system that is not Marginal. 
The ECONOMIC reality of capitalism is that ALL non marginal systems are capitalistic.
   "The political use of capital is another issue.
   "Communism is a political system in which capital is primarily State owned.
   "Free Enterprise occurs in a political system in which capital is primarily privately owned.
   "Both systems are capitalistic in the economic sense.
   "Capitalism is not a political term unless it is qualified as in "State Capitalism" or "Private 
Capitalism."
   I did not intend to get into a theoretical discussion in this matter. I talked about facts. Facts of 
relating to different systems with double standard.
   By the way, communism is more economic than political unless you wanted to look at it as 
political. Totalitarianism is political in a communist system as democracy is political in a capitalist 
system. If the referred association was factual we could talk about them as two different sets 
without further differentiating the political from the economic. By the same token if it is a fact that 
both sets had good as well as evil those facts should be related as they are without bias.
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15827
From: "Rob" 
Subject: OT--Drug Censorship (since we're on the subject of government)
   From: announce@lp.org=20
Subject: Release: Drug Censorship
   Warning: This press release could be illegal under new anti-drug legislation
WASHINGTON, DC -- Politicians are so desperate to win the War on Drugs that they're willing to 
outlaw this press release, the Libertarian Party said today.
   "Warning: This press release contains illegal information," said the party's National Director 
Steve Dasbach. "You could be prosecuted -- and sentenced to a 10-year prison term -- for 
reading it on the air, publishing it in a newspaper, or linking it to your website."
   The reason? Congress appears poised to pass legislation that would make it a crime to 
publicize information about illegal drugs. The bill, HR. 2987, would make it a federal felony to 
advertise, link a website to, or even publish certain kinds of factual data about drugs, drug culture, 
or drug paraphernalia.
   "The War on Drugs has been turned into a War on Words," said Dasbach. "This bill would make 
certain kinds of Constitutionally protected speech illegal, and give politicians the power to put 
Americans in prison for writing, posting, or advocating information the government doesn't like."
   The Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act, sponsored by senators Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 
and Orrin Hatch (R-UT) -- passed the Senate unanimously last November. It is now being 
considered by two House committees.
   Supporters say the bill is designed to fight so-called "meth labs," which produce a dangerous 
form of amphetamine.
   But the bill would go far beyond that, said Dasbach -- and would create several new 
"communication crimes," including:
   * Illegal linking (three years in prison): It would be illegal for any "communications facility to 
post, publicize, transmit, publish, link to, broadcast or otherwise advertise" -- or even provide 
"indirect advertising for" -- Internet sites that sell drug paraphernalia.
   "For example, this press release would be illegal if we mention that www.bongs.com has 
information about buying marijuana pipes," said Dasbach. "It could even be illegal if we provided 
this information so you could prevent your children from visiting that site."
   * Illegal teaching (10 years in prison). It would be illegal to tell someone how to produce an 
illegal drug, such as growing marijuana.
   "It would be a felony to mention that you can purchase a book about growing marijuana at 
www.marijuana-hemp.com," said Dasbach. "It could even be a felony if you intended to grow 
marijuana in a state where medical marijuana is legal, and you planned to grow it for bona fide 
medical reasons."
   The bill is a dangerous expansion of government power, said Dasbach, because although 
politicians now have the power to outlaw certain activities, the First Amendment prohibits them 
from outlawing speech about those illegal activities.
   "Politicians have already made possession of drugs a crime -- now they want to make 
possession of press releases, books, newspapers, magazines, and websites about drugs a 
crime," he said. "If this bill passes, the War on Drugs will have escalated into a full fledged War 
on the First Amendment."
# # #

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15828
From: Claire
Subject: Glenys
   Why am I here?
   To make people like you wish I weren't.
Claire

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15829
From: Glenys Lowery 
Subject: Re: Glenys
   That says so much about you, Claire.
   I don't wish you weren't here. I wouldn't give you that much of my energy. Sorry to disappoint 
you :-)
Love
Glenys
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Lord's Prayer is 66 words,
the Gettysburg Address is 286 words,
and there are 1,322 words in the Declaration of Independence.
Yet, government regulations on the sale of cabbage total 26,911 words.
- David McIntosh

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15830
From: MySTiK 
Subject: Re: OT--Drug Censorship (since we're on the subject of
   This fascist bill also allows federal jackbooted Gestapo Storm Troopers to break into your home 
while you are not there and to steal anything they wish to secretly be used against you at a later 
time. This includes photocopies of your diary or other papers, copies of your e-mail and/or hard 
drive etc.
   If it passes and the stupid sheeple of this country will most likely let that happen, then we no 
longer live I the United States of America, but instead we will live the United Fascist Police States 
of Amerika, and it will make the former Nazi Germany or the former Soviet Union look like 
paradise in comparison.
   Rob wrote: "Subject: Release: Drug Censorship" <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15831
From: Peter E Monk 
Subject: Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk OT
   My comments are just that comments. They may be triggered by what you say. They are not 
intended to dispute what you say unless they specifically say so.
   One of the problems we have in the west is that in no country do we have anything close to 
representative government. 
   As I said in an earlier posting compare the number of citizens in the country with the number of 
votes cast and you will find that the total votes cast does not approach one third of the number of 
citizens. This means that less than 17% of citizens get to determine the rules of the game we 
collectively play. by.
   I had intended to send this to you personally, but didn't know how to do that.
Paul Yu writes:
   "I did not intend to get into a theoretical discussion in this matter. I talked about facts. Facts of 
relating to different systems with double standard." <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15832
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: THE SEEKER
Claire:
   Lk, this mailing list is a long way from a private organization, ...This IS censorship.
Lk:
   You have the right to your own opinion.
Claire:
   If someone tries to sound an alarm you all don't want to listen to it, ...
Lk:
   I imagine there are quite a few who would listen to credible criticism.
Claire:
   Lest you forget, this list is a part of Spiritweb.Org, and the entire list is subject to Rene's 
willingless to let you stay.
Lk:
   I don't know Rene, but perhaps you should ask him what his view is in regards to whether or 
not lists can exclude individuals who do not appear to wish to further the goals of the list, and in 
fact are trying to disrupt it?
   In any case it is no great deal to create an email list. However I don't understand why you are 
so hostile to the idea that the list has a purpose (JJ's writings and ideas) and that some of us are 
here for that purpose, and not to debate with people who are not interested in that purpose.
   What is wrong with that? After all, if I started a list on crocheting and a bunch of Harley 
Davidson folks wanted to crash the party and fill up the list with a plethora of discussions on 
motorcycles, wouldn't I have some right to ask them to leave? Politely?
in love, and some charity.....lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15833
From: MySTiK 
Subject: Re: OT--Drug Censorship (since we're on the subject of
   Oops...Sorry Keysters...I was meaning to send this reply off to another list, but I hit send before 
changing the address. The membership majority of that list support this draconian legislation 
simply because it is sponsored by Republicans, hence the tone of my reply. 
   Anyway, my apologies again for my failure to send my message to the correct address.
Regards,
MySTiK
   MySTiK wrote: <snip>
-- 
MySTiK@BeYoND-THe-iLLuSioN.CoM * WeBMaSTeR * WWW.BeYoND-THe-iLLuSioN.CoM
HOW TO SEE PAST THE VEIL OF iLLuSioN:
beLIEve nothing - observe everything - disbeLIEve nothing seek knowledge - question authority - 
seek wisdom question reality - think for yourself - question yourself
(([I]+[II])+>([VI]+[XIV]+[XI])+>([V]+[XXI])) => (2+5=1)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15834
From: Diane Linen
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: THE SEEKER
   l finghin wrote: "What is wrong with that? After all, if I started a list on crocheting and a bunch of 
Harley Davidson folks wanted to crash the party and fill up the list with a plethora of discussions 
on motorcycles, wouldn't I have some right to ask them to leave? Politely?"
   Rick has shown an inordinate amount of patience with a lot of people who've disrupted the 
purpose of the list. Larry, your analogy is a picturesque one but an effective one.
Diane

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15835
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
Paul:
   Greed has in fact been going hand in hand with individualistic and democracy-based capitalism 
as totalitarianism with communism.
Lk:
   Greed wasn't invented by capitalists, nor is it even a primary quality of capitalism.
   What is capitalism?
   It is a social and economic system based on a very simple principle. That principle is the 
recognition of inalienable human rights, including property rights, and the banishing of force -- as 
much as possible -- from human relations.
   Communism, and other forms of totalitarianism however are based on the principle that might 
makes right, and that it is ok to murder a million people if that furthers some supposed desirable 
goal.
   Quite frankly I prefer the Andrew Carnegies to the Joseph Stalins.
lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15836
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: OT: Freedom and the income tax.
HI Travis and all,
   I've checked out taxgate. If what they say is true it really does seem a person could legally 
make a tax-free living thanks to loopholes. I agree that a law should be followed to the letter by all 
which spells bad news for law-happy politicians since there's so many laws loopholes should be 
found in abundance. It spells good news for those with the courage, time, and money to choose 
the taxgate option. They're going to need it going up against the authority of the Beast.
All that good stuff,
Rob
   Travis Tabbal writes: "About the income tax. I suggest everyone take a look at 
http://www.taxgate.com. They have some interesting information." <snip> 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15837
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   At first I was uncertain if kicking Alan out was in alignment with oneness. Now that I've read 
what you wrote here, Rick, I think it is--our oneness. You go, boy!
All that good stuff,
Rob
   Rick Audette writes: <snip> "In Alan's case, I had every reason to use the option. Ours is not 
the first list that he has disrupted. At this point, there is enough against him to ban him from all of 
Spiritweb. I acted in the greatest good for the majority." <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15838
From: "l finghin"
Subject: Re: [ OT ]Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk
Peter:
   Most people try to make the term Capitalism into a political term when it is a purely ECONOMIC 
term.
   A capitalist system is ANY system, that has something left over at the end of the year, ...
Lk:
   Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned. That _implies_ a 
great deal about the political system. For example it implies a political system where the rulers 
cannot arbitrarily seize property.
   "A capitalist system is any system that has something left of at the end of the year" is simply 
wrong and that is easily demonstrated. For example, in medieval times there were years where 
the crops were very good and more was produced than could be consumed that year. However 
medieval systems were not capitalism to any significant degree (not that commerce didn't occur, 
even then, but no economist would say capitalism was the distinguishing characteristic, as she 
would no doubt say about 19th century England, or America).
   By the way, the reason that capitalist systems are not marginal -- your term -- is because they 
are efficient. That means, in practical terms, they are beneficial in producing goods and services. 
The fact that you own a computer (and probably a great many other things you take for granted) 
is proof of that.
in love.....lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15839
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: Glenys
   Claire we have been through many of these battles before on this list. It's quite simple. This list 
is to promote, further, and study, the teachings brought forth by JJ Dewey. We don't care about 
Darne, Ramtha, or any other teachings. If we did we would go to there sites. We don't go to their 
sites and disrupt them, and we don't appreciate it when they come to ours in the same manner. I 
believe all here would agree that anyone here for the purpose of studying, or furthering the work 
of JJ Dewey are welcome. Anyone here for reasons such as Alan gave, or the one you so 
flippantly gave below are not. If this is your attitude you should go some where that you find less 
objectionable and make it easy not only on yourself, but us in the process. Considering your 
answer below I immediately feel an animosity from you towards us and what we are trying to 
accomplish. Spirit Web is a big place, and so is the net. It takes all of five minutes for anyone to 
set up their own list. If they are not happy, or comfortable here, then by all means they should 
exercise this possibility, and stop being a negative influence on this list.
John
   "Why am I here? To make people like you wish I weren't. Claire"

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15840
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
xavier:
   666 is one 6 for each plane, mental astral physical.
lk:
   No doubt this is a stupid question, but being a "go for broke sort of guy", I am going to ask it 
anyway. I think I know what is meant by mental and physical planes, but I am little uncertain as to 
what y'all are meaning by the word "astral".
   Really (I know that sounds silly on such a spiritual list, but there you have it)!
   I really (and I mean _really_) would like to kind of understand that a little better. If you, or JWK, 
or someone would like to really tackle that I sure would appreciate it. :)
Thanks!
lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15841
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: Glenys
Claire:
   Why am I here?
   To make people like you wish I weren't.
lk:
   You know, ever since I have read about "harmlessness" I have tried to practice it. I know that so 
far I fall far short of the mark. Sometimes less than kind statements just leap out of my fingers 
and onto the keys. But one thing for sure, I don't have it as my _goal_ in life to make anyone wish 
that I weren't here.
   Saw a bumper sticker on a pickup truck today. Kind of surprised me, being it was a pickup 
truck, and it is Texas. It said:
   Mean People Suck
   Sometimes that one speaks to me too! :):)
love....lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15842
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
   Heck Larry, Xavier did such a good job on 666 that I'm just going to let Dartanion cover this one 
too. ROTFLMAO
   Oh and don't ever feel foolish with a question like this. This subject baffles many that already 
think they know the answer because it keeps growing.
   Oh! one note you left out bro, three number sequences always apply to the physical plane when 
viewed as a whole. Boy you didn't miss much. LOL
Your Friend, and Brother in the Light
John
   xavier: "666 is one 6 for each plane, mental astral physical."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15843
From: "Rob" 
Subject: OT--Just a test--Ignore
   Curiosity got the best of you, eh? I just realized that I had my html on. I turned it off, played with 
some other options and wanted to see how it turned out. Sorry for all my long posts crammed 
with those pesky html characters. 
Bye.
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15844
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
   What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no problem being 
motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer will have no 
problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy.
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15845
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: OT--Just a test--Ignore
   "Sorry for all my long posts crammed with those pesky html characters. Bye. Rob"
   Hi Rob, I do the same thing all the time. I have to turn on HTML to send to someone else, for 
one reason or another, and then I forget to switch back before I post to the list. I'll bet the folks 
that clean these up use some expletives from time to time. Let me take this opportunity to 
apologize to them, and thank them for the great job they all do.
Your Friend,
John

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15846
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
Hi Lawrence,
   The astral plane is just a new-agey way of saying the emotional plane. It's below the mental but 
above the physical.
Rob
   "l finghin" writes: "No doubt this is a stupid question, but being a "go for broke sort of guy", I am 
going to ask it anyway. I think I know what is meant by mental and physical planes, but I am little 
uncertain as to what y'all are meaning by the word "astral"."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15847
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
Rob:
   What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no problem being 
motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer will have no 
problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy.
lk:
   First, let me say that I was a student of her writings for many years. No matter how wrong I feel 
she is about many things now, she was exemplary in expressing certain things. All in all, and 
despite her atheism, I think she was an agent of light. For evidence of that look at how many 
copies of "The Fountainhead" (a novel for those who don't know) are still sold every year. A great 
many of those people who read that novel don't become Objectivists (the name of her 
philosophy) and for the most part are influenced to have some better understanding of 
individuality, and human rights.
   But greed is wrong. It is in a very real sense the violation of the second commandment, in that 
"things" become more important to people than their relationship with God and other people -- in 
a sense that big Mercedes becomes an idol -- and they "bow down and worship" to own it. Greed 
is wrong because essentially it keeps you from progressing.
in love...lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15848
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
Rob,
   Thanks! :)
   I like simple, easy to understand explanations.
lk
   "The astral plane is just a new-agey way of saying the emotional plane. It's below the mental 
but above the physical."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15849
From: Paul Yu 
Subject: Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk OT
   Peter wrote: "My comments are just that comments. They may be triggered by what you say. 
They are not intended to dispute what you say unless they specifically say so.
   "One of the problems we have in the west is that in no country do we have anything close to 
representative government. 
   "As I said in an earlier posting compare the number of citizens in the country with the number of 
votes cast and you will find that the total votes cast does not approach one third of the number of 
citizens. This means that less than 17% of citizens get to determine the rules of the game we 
collectively play. by.
   "I had intended to send this to you personally, but didn't know how to do that."
   Sending it to the list is just fine. It is good to set goals, political, economic, educational, spiritual, 
etc. It is also good to know the actual process and all that it presents. As long as we truly seek 
truth and nothing but the truth and not swept by personal affiliations and attachments we will find 
the truth and realize it in good time.
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15850
From: Paul Yu
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
Paul:
   "Greed has in fact been going hand in hand with individualistic and democracy-based 
capitalism as totalitarianism with communism."
Lk:
   "Greed wasn't invented by capitalists, nor is it even a primary quality of capitalism."
   I have said time and again I was simply dealing with facts as they are. If you insist let us then 
talk about theories. 
   Capitalism is intimately linked with individualism as it appears in western culture. Without the 
prevailing individualism capitalism could not have been formed. Capitalism cannot theoretically be 
conceived as coexisting with socialism. By individualism I mean the cultural emphasis on the 
individual as the pivot of the social structure. The individual is the cultural basis and criterion for 
evaluating social behavior. The individual rights are supreme and competition is more highly 
valued than peacefulness. Even national security is meant to protect individual citizens and the 
individual lives are most important. Whereas in socialism society or the common good instead of 
the individual interest serves as the cultural basis and criterion for assessing all social values.
   The good coming from individualism is necessarily accompanied by the evil coming the same 
and that evil is greed since capitalism is individualistic. By the same token the evil coming from 
socialism is necessarily accompanied by the good coming from the same.
   "What is capitalism?
   "It is a social and economic system based on a very simple principle. That principle is the 
recognition of inalienable human rights, including property rights, and the banishing of force -- as 
much as possible -- from human relations."
   The principle on which is based capitalism is what I described above as individualism, a cultural 
term for all inalienable individual rights including property rights. Side by side with the 
individualistic property rights of the individual lies hidden an evil called greed. The more a culture 
encourages individual interests as the highest achievable value as opposed to social concerns 
the greedier the individuals in that culture would tend to become.
   "Communism, and other forms of totalitarianism however are based on the principle that might 
makes right, and that it is ok to murder a million people if that furthers some supposed desirable 
goal."
   Communism is economic in scope whereas totalitarianism is political in nature. The fact that a 
communist government is totalitarian does not ipso facto make communism a political system. 
Such stereotyped miscomprehension of concepts has misled so many people to wrong judgment 
and pointless hatred. Do we still need to bring out the truth and the fact that good and evil are 
found in every country or system?
   "Quite frankly I prefer the Andrew Carnegies to the Joseph Stalins. Lk"
   I rather prefer truth and love to any human preference.
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15851
From: Paul Yu 
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
   Rob wrote: "What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no 
problem being motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer 
will have no problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy."
   Greed is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as excessive desire for getting or having, 
esp. wealth; desire for more than one needs or deserves.
   People in the world not only uphold the doctrine of greed but practice it even beyond the limits. 
Paul Yu
SpiritualityABC
SpiritualityESOTERIC
http://egroups.com

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15852
From: (Jean)
Subject: Re: question on the beast
   Thank you Xavier, for answering that my friend, that does explain it in a nutshell, I do think I still 
have much to learn on that end though :)
Your friend,
Jean

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15853
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
Paul:
   I rather prefer truth and love to any human preference.
lk:
   Certainly noble sentiments. I prefer truth above illusion, and love above hatred.
   Remembering the purpose of the list I think I will cease to discuss capitalism for a while. 
Perhaps you might consider reading the book I mentioned and actually learn something about it 
other than myth and prejudice.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15854
From: "Jennifer Hampson" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Xavier, you're so shy. Stop beating around the bush and just come straight out with what you 
want to say..... LOL!*?@!!!
   (It's so good to have you posting again)
Love
Jennifer
   "Well you haven't seen what these disruptions can lead to. I also wish I had seen the next 
message of bleephead number xyz, but alas... lol"

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15855
From: "Jennifer Hampson"
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
   Nothing wrong or right with greed. It's just worth knowing that an excess in anything is an 
imbalance.
Jennifer
   Rob wrote: "What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no 
problem being motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer 
will have no problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15856
From: "Craig Tholson" 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
Xavier,
   You can just say, "Excuse my English!" But Darne and gang are not allowed to say, "excuse my 
French".
   Blood's thick - go figure.
Love,
Craig
   "xavier" wrote: "Well you haven't seen what these disruptions can lead to." <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15857
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: Look for Principles
   "J J Dewey" writes: <snip> "Let me pick on one of our members who often underestimates 
himself - our friend Rob. He recently expressed doubts to me about his ability to reach soul 
contact, but I submit to you that he demonstrates more contact than any guru that you could 
name that is floating around the internet."
   Well geez, that makes me feel good. But if I believed you I'd be relying on an outside authority, 
no? I need soul contact to tell me I have soul contact! LOL Hmm. I find it interesting the beast 
could dupe me using your teachings to create illusion. I thought I was above the trappings my 
born-again relatives get caught in. Pretty tricky.
   "No Rob, I do not disagree with you at all. You used the Law of Correspondences and 
correlated the known with the unknown - a known war on drugs to a unknown war on meat."
   Well, at first I was disagreeing because you said the value of meat would go down and I said 
no, the price would go up. But now I'm considering the value of a thing doesn't necessarily 
directly correlate with price, but anyway . Just another area I should take a class on.
<snip>
   "The fact that Rob was able to wisely use a principle (the Law of Correspondences) to illustrate 
another principle (freedom) shows indeed a degree of soul contact."
   Wow, I did all that? Who'd a thunk? :-)
   "He needs to trust that inner sense (that comes from the soul) and pay attention to it. Then it 
will not be long before the still small voice becomes an inner flame that cannot be ignored.
   "The greatest fire is created by the tiniest most imperceptible spark."
   Hmm. I know that you think in different time tables than most people, JJ. Some people may 
think 'not be long' means a wait between 1 month and a year. Whereas you might be thinking in 
terms of lifetimes. If the latter is the case, I find it disheartening.
   "Even so soul contact begins as such a "small voice" that you think it is your imagination. But 
each time you trust in it the flame is fanned and grows until the light therefrom is bright and the 
heat is sure and your faith is replaced by knowledge."
   Sometimes during the normal course of my day it's as though a thought is injected into my 
stream of thinking. I'd describe it more as an impression rather than a voice.
<snip>
   "Answer yes or no and explain...
   "Is the principle of freedom in play if
"(1) The majority benefit and have more freedom?"
   Yes, laws should be made or repealed which allows the maximum amount of freedom for the 
maximum number of people so long as a maximum amount of free-willed peace and non-violence 
is the result.
"(2) The minorities benefit and have more freedom?"
   What rational, properly represented collective will would vote for such a thing? No, the freedom 
and fruits of the majority should not be sacrificed for the benefit of a minority group just because 
the group thinks it's somehow better than or deserves more above everyone else. The result 
would be increased resentment and violence among the groups which would also cause 
separation. I can only see this kind of thing happening if people weren't properly represented.
"(3) If you or your family benefit and have more freedom?"
   Me and my family? Hmm, that's a toughy because it pulls on heart strings. Who would not want 
their family to have more money, food, clothes, etc, especially in bad times? In today's world only 
the most highly rock solid, righteous, unfeeling person could resist the constant temptation to 
skim a little extra off the top for themselves and family. The current system breeds this kind of 
behavior. I doubt there's a single consciousness in the U.S. that hasn't been affected by the 
government dole. This is a judgment call for me.
"(4) If every man woman and child gets a thousand dollar check in the mail from the 
government?"
   That money would have to come from somewhere. If not from the people of that nation than 
from other nations, and as long as the foreign people are giving our government money of their 
own free will, I'd gladly accept one of those checks. Samu? Glenys? Anni? Peter? :-)
"(5) If there were no government?"
   I don't know how to answer this right now.
   If the above examples were laws or programs decided upon by the free-will of the majority I 
would say YES to all of the above. As a properly represented, rational, collective will we would 
learn from the failures of any programs/laws that didn't work and change them.
All that good stuff,
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15858
From: "Rob" 
Subject: OT--Re: Greed
Rob:
   "What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no problem being 
motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer will have no 
problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy."
lk:
<snip>
   "... greed is wrong. It is in a very real sense the violation of the second commandment, in that 
"things" become more important to people than their relationship with God and other people -- in 
a sense that big Mercedes becomes an idol -- and they "bow down and worship" to own it. Greed 
is wrong because essentially it keeps you from progressing."
   The webster's I'm looking in defines 'greed' as: "Excessive desire for getting or having, esp. 
wealth; desire for more than one needs or deserves; avarice; cupidity."
   Hmm. I think I have my terms mixed up because that definition doesn't grant for a good side to 
greed. I guess greed really is all bad. But if another person's greed does not effect me in a bad 
way I don't have a problem with it. I have my own progression to think about. If the greedy person 
one day realizes that that lifestyle is unfulfilling I trust a teacher of generosity will appear.
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15859
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Re: RE: OT--Just a test--Ignore
   "John Wayne Kline" writes: "'Hi Rob, I do the same thing all the time. I have to turn on HTML to 
send to someone else, for one reason or another, and then I forget to switch back before I post to 
the list. I'll bet the folks that clean these up use some expletives from time to time. Let me take 
this opportunity to apologize to them, and thank them for the great job they all do."
   I second that. My apologies to the historians for my making their job difficult. You have enough 
to do without cleaning up after me.
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15860
From: J J Dewey 
Subject: Greed
Rob writes:
   "Sometimes during the normal course of my day it's as though a thought is injected into my 
stream of thinking. I'd describe it more as an impression rather than a voice."
JJ
   The still small voice is more of an impression than a voice as we normally understand it.
   The question that may now arise is:
   Everyone gets impressions and various thoughts coming into their mind. Obviously they cannot 
all be from soul contact. How do we tell the difference then between an impression from our lower 
selves and the voice of the soul?
   There is a distinct difference. At first that difference is difficult to sense, but when the realization 
comes that this inner voice is different from your own thoughts and feelings and you begin to pay 
attention to it you gain a sense of its origin. As you pay attention the communications become 
more frequent and your inner hearing becomes more acute and reliable. Then comes the 
realization that you are receiving higher impressions from God, the Spirit, the Higher Self - 
definitely a higher intelligence than you are on your own.
   How long, you ask, before you are sure of the voice? That is up to you.
   Here is what you can do to speed he process.
(1) Ask and ye shall receive.
   Keep asking and then paying attention to impressions coming within throughout the day. In a 
quiet moment when you are not expecting anything the answer may come.
(2) Give thanks and glory to God for all that you do receive.
(3) Seek higher knowledge and sensitivity so you can have greater power to assist others upon 
the path. Share that which you do receive.
(4) Stay humble. Resist the temptation to feed the ego and realize that without the voice of the 
soul you have no real knowledge.
   I see that we have been discussing greed, especially in relation to capitalism.
   What is greed? He who has abundance is not necessarily greedy. A poor starving person can 
be greedy. He who is greedy is one who wants more than he has earned or that is rightfully his. 
Thus a poor person who wants that which he is not willing to earn is as greedy as the millionaire 
who deceives his customers into paying more than a just price for goods. The communist who 
expects a full day's pay for a half days work is as greedy as the capitalist who uses substandard 
materials in his building or manufacturing.
   On the other hand, many poor and rich people only want that which they rightly earn and are 
thus not greedy.
   To call a rich person or a capitalist greedy because he does not give away all his wealth is a 
travesty of the word.
   It may be a wonderful thing for a rich person to give away his wealth, but if he doesn't does not 
mean he is greedy. The real truth could be the reverse. If a poor person expects a rich person to 
give to him that which he is not willing to earn then he deserves the label of greed, not he who is 
rich.
   Unfortunately, there are many lazy people out there who watch others who are motivated to 
earn money or to improve their lives and call them greedy. But a desire to achieve abundance is 
not inherently evil and often has nothing to do with greed. In fact Jesus said:
   "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
   Our divine heritage is to have mot only spiritual abundance, but material also.
   As the new age does come in more solidly those who do have abundance will not only share, 
but lend a helping hand to others less fortunate until all shall have their needs taken care of.
   "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have 
been doing so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."
Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey
All Rights Reserved

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15861
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: Glenys
   Claire wrote: "Why am I here? . .To make people like you wish I weren't."
   I hope you have a better answer than that;-) It would be a pity if it was your only reason to be 
here, wouldn't it?

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15862
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: OT--Drug Censorship (since we're on the subject
   MySTiK wrote: "This fascist bill also allows federal jackbooted Gestapo Storm Troopers to 
break into your home while you are not there and to steal anything they wish to secretly be used 
against you at a later time. This includes photocopies of your diary or other papers, copies of your 
e-mail and/or hard drive etc.
   "If it passes and the stupid sheeple of this country will most likely let that happen, then we no 
longer live in the United States of America, but instead we will live the United Fascist Police 
States of Amerika,"
   why not...
   "and it will make the former Nazi Germany or the former Soviet Union look like paradise in 
comparison."
   no this one is way too much;-)
   Know that in France, freedom of speech is not a reality. Racist sentences are illegal. Of course, 
this is used to censor whatever anti mainstream media bothers the authorities too much.
   Other laws much used to restrict freedom is "illegal medical action", and "non assistance to 
endangered person".
   With these, any alternative health, or alternative spiritual group can easily be destroyed... well, 
when it is not the church of scientology that uses the same tactics and has a staff of lawyers.
   The working rule here is "don't provoke the authorities or you're down". Sneaking is the way to 
practice freedom, here. Blatantly saying what is and what isn't in alternative fields leads you to 
prison.
   But this is still VERY far of nazi germany and communist soviet union, please !! ;-)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15863
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
xavier:
   "666 is one 6 for each plane, mental astral physical."
lk:
   "No doubt this is a stupid question, but being a "go for broke sort of guy", I am going to ask it 
anyway. I think I know what is meant by mental and physical planes, but I am little uncertain as to 
what y'all are meaning by the word "astral".
   "Really (I know that sounds silly on such a spiritual list, but there you have it)!"
   No not silly.
   If you look at it, my definition of "astral" is what I read from it. This is not a good way to gather 
knowledge, the good one is to experiment by oneself. This question is so simple that it takes a 
real knower (a practitioner) to answer correctly.
   The astral plane is the plane of "desires". Emotions are astral, for example. Now how do 
emotions come to be, where do they come from (some kind of reflection from the soul, in her 
interaction with matter), I don't know.
   And the astral is characterized by the notion of space, but not time. Time and space act in the 
physical plane. Neither of them acts in the mental plane.
   More casually, the astral plane is like a world composed of desires, forms, where you can find 
everything that is visualized by anyone. Concretely, someone can go consciously into that plane, 
and visit whatever situation or space that exists there.
   If I have a picture in my mind, let's take a cup of tea for example, it exists in my mind, and I am 
seeing it. My brain here is only the receiver of my astral body of consciousness, my brain is not 
the producer of the pictures, like my TV set is not the producer of its pictures and sounds. (yes, all 
senses are present I guess).
   (ooh that's a tough one;-) Is there any occultist in the room?)
   An astral trip is when someone "gets out of his body", and roams the astral plane into his astral 
body. (to walk the physical plane you have a physical body, same thing in astral).
   The important point is that we are not our body. When "awake", the astral body and the physical 
body are joined they share their consciousnesses.
   When sleeping or astral traveling, they are separated. Sleep is an astral trip where the 
consciousness of the brain is split from the consciousness of the astral body, thus only keeping 
diminished memories of what comes through from the astral body to the physical body, while the 
astral one is "up there".
   In terms of location, "where is the astral plane", it is not so "somewhere" as it is more 
"somesubtle" ;-) Astral matter (yes occultists speak pof astral "matter") is more subtle than 
physical matter.
   Take the analogy of a guitar chord. When it vibrates, it becomes slightly invisible. It grew in 
energy, and it became apparently invisible. Take the analogy of balls of rock, then of smaller 
rocks, then of sand, then take water, then gas. With each step, you can conceive that a smaller 
matter, a more refined one, can coexist within a grosser one, a denser one. If you fill a tank with 
rocks, you can still add sand without increasing the volume. Analogically, you can be passing by 
astral bodies of people, without physical bodies, everyday in every place. They can pass trough 
doors and walls easily.
   This leads to another point.
   Everything is energy and vibration, okay. Consciousness is like a radio receiver. On the dense 
low end of the radio band, you have the physical plane. When you're into a physical body, you 
perceive the physical plane, alright.
   When you're in an astral body, you may also perceive something of the physical plane, namely 
the astral energies that lie therein: the people that are on the physical plane and all the beings 
that are around there with them.
   But, (when you're in your astral body but not your physical one) you may also tune into higher 
energies, and then you won't perceive the earth anymore, but a purely astral realm. Imagine all 
the desires ever dreamed of, they have a reality, they are reality there. I mean, when you have a 
desire here, it is a desire, it is in your heart or belly, but it is not real YET. But in the astral plane, 
just desire something and it IS; It appears, it takes shape and life. So, just fear, just have a fear, 
and some energy takes form, life and jumps at you! Just feel love, and love has a shape, and 
forms of energy are projected from you towards the object of your love. Being the plane of 
desires, one builds his own world, and even his own body with which one is comfortable with. 
Just wish to be dressed in pink middle age noble dress and there you are. Of course, there is 
interaction between people, and all these personal desires (and impersonal ones on higher astral 
sub-planes) build the astral plane together (the earth astral plane, each planet has its own).
   Thinking about it, I'm no astral traveler, I only read about this, so anyone here can go on? any 
one who lives this? I'm afraid I built a relatory like would a guy that never went to some country 
and talked about it ceaselessly.
   Read some books. "The astral plane" by C.W. Leadbeater may be good. Or ask people who 
live it.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15864
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: question on the beast
   Jean at wrote: "Thank you Xavier, for answering that my friend, that does explain it in a 
nutshell, I do think I still have much to learn on that end though :)"
   Don't we all?
   This kind of knowledge is like painting, you add little touches seemingly at random, following 
your focus of the moment, and invisibly in the background, some links happen and a picture 
emerges slowly.
   This is no analytic or linear learning. You don't learn with your separative mind, like one 
programs a computer. The separative mind is only the tool of focus, the pen, but the learning 
organ is the untouchable higher mind.
   Hear some points here, make some links there, get some piece of meaning there.. bit by bit 
some understanding comes, some general picture is made, some principles are understood.
   Usually datas come when I am ready and willing to understand them. This is a completely 
different learning process than the usual schoolish one. And esoteric books are a great tool to 
develop that. You can't read an A.A.Bailey book from beginning to end.
   We're into a forest, and we're tracking our ways, each of us, freely. Not free from influences, but 
free to decide.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15865
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: THE SEEKER
   Craig Tholson awrote: "Xavier, You can just say, "Excuse my English!" But Darne and gang are 
not allowed to say, excuse my French.
Blood's thick - go figure."
   Actually I'm a little ill at ease in insulting Darne and co. And yes it can sound like... being vulgar 
and unjustly counting on the agreement of the party. I guess it would be more just and effective to 
say that Darne's message can be summed up to "get up and fight JJ, if you're a man". What does 
that challenge have to do here?
   I wish I read more of Dark's prose, BTW. Always interesting to observe, and full of low 
but...interesting energies. Like one observes demons you know? But challenge is out of question. 
"We" don't act on the same ground. It's like JJ's character in The Immortal, the spiritual help that 
he receives (because of his own alignement) that makes the evil spirit flee at once, burned. Soul 
versus low astral, 1 - 0.
:-)))
lol
   They have been allowed to say "Come on with me in sp=EErit world, I'll punch your nose" to JJ. 
Personally I don't value that freedom much. Especially because it is we, students, that give it to 
them.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15866
From: xavier
Subject: Re: [OT] True Freedom (was: Greed; Evil from Good)
   Jennifer Hampson wrote: "Nothing wrong or right with greed. It's just worth knowing that an 
excess in anything is an imbalance."
   Greed is like fornication, previously defined by JJ. Desiring the material vehicle for the egoistic 
pleasure it can give, instead of using it for the evolution of consciousness it can provide to the 
whole.
   In that respect, capitalism (or is it industrialization?) brought much good. I can eat and have 
commodities easily, which enhances my freedom to act, including to serve and grow.
Rob:
   "What's wrong with greed? Doesn't Ayn Rand teach greed is good? I have no problem being 
motivated by greed to perform a product or service, and I know a paying customer will have no 
problem refusing my business if my product or service is crappy."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15867
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [ OT ]Look for Principles
Rob:
   I'm considering the value of a thing doesn't necessarily directly correlate with price, ...
lk:
   Of value to whom? Price is directly proportional to demand. Demand is often not directly 
proportional to value. For example, you might recall the various crazes over certain dolls, or if you 
have a longer memory, "pet rocks".

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15868
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: OT--Re: Greed
Rob:
   The webster's I'm looking in defines 'greed' as: "Excessive desire for getting or having, esp. 
wealth; desire for more than one needs or deserves; avarice; cupidity."
lk:
   However "greed", and "desire" are not necessarily the same thing. For example, there are many 
things I desire, but I don't think I am greedy to desire them. I think the key word above in your 
Webster's is "excessive".
   I think key components of "greed" from my perspective revolve around two things:
1. The desire for more and more wealth, knowledge, acclaim, and love from others to such a 
degree that one cannot see the needs and desires of others, or perceive any value in helping 
others satisfy their needs.
2. The desire for more and more ...etc. to the point that one cannot perceive one's need for God.
   That latter point is where one makes one's desires an idol and one bows down and worships 
whatever one thinks will satisfy those desires to the detriment of others, and one's need for God.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15869
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
Xavier,
   Thanks for your thoughts on the astral plane! That will take some contemplation. :)
lk

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15870
From: Deborah Matthies 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
Xavier, 
   That was a really good explanation of the astral. Thanks I learned a lot:)
Love always,
Deb

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15871
From: Travis Tabbal 
Subject: Re: OT: Court behavior: Veda
   I agree. If you are ever a witness, do what I would. Take the 5th. It will really bleep them off, 
and may get you held in contempt. But think about it. If you are required to answer that question 
you are providing evidence against yourself, for perjury. Thus, IMO, it's perfectly reasonable to 
invoke the 5th amendment. As the Constitution is the highest law in the land, a judge can't 
override it, it has the be changed by the amendment ratification process. Good luck. ;)
   It's risky, and might land you in jail for contempt. I guess it depends on how much you value 
your freedoms and your oaths.
Travis
   Peter E Monk wrote: "It would be interesting if lawyers were required to take the same oath as 
witnesses, and if witnesses refused to answer those rigged questions where the lawyer wants a 
yes or no answer which would require the witness to violate the part of the oath that requires the 
witness to tell the whole truth."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15872
From: "Stardancer" 
Subject: RE: Greed
JJ wrote:
   "Here is what you can do to speed he process.
"(1) Ask and ye shall receive.
   "Keep asking and then paying attention to impressions coming within throughout the day. In a 
quiet moment when you are not expecting anything the answer may come.
"(2) Give thanks and glory to God for all that you do receive.
"(3) Seek higher knowledge and sensitivity so you can have greater power to assist others upon 
the path. Share that which you do receive.
"(4) Stay humble. Resist the temptation to feed the ego and realize that without the voice of the 
soul you have no real knowledge."
Trish:
   May I also add to #3, to act on that which you receive. I have learned a great deal about soul 
contact by doing the things that I am impressed to do, and then paying attention to the results.
   When the results uplift and bring light and love, then I perceive that what I received was from an 
enlightened source.
   If the result brings disharmony and tension, then I perceive that what I received was from my 
ego or another unenlightened source.
   Either way I look at the fruits, and this has helped me gain more clarity about which impressions 
to act upon. I have gotten a "feel" of what an impression from source "feels" like by testing and 
trying so many.
   Another key for me is, to let my actions, that were based upon impressions, grow for a while, 
before I test the fruit. Often source impressions create uncomfortable feelings at the start, but in 
the long run they always bring forth good fruit.
   For instance, choosing to act on an impression to get out of a marriage before irreparable 
damage has been done, and karmic debt is involved. In the beginning there is much pain, but in 
the long run the good usually outweighs the pain.
   Just another thought.
With love from my Heart,
Trish

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-29/15873
From: Peter E Monk 
Subject: Re: [ OT ]Re: Capitalism Peter (Veda) Monk
   Capitalism is any system that produces capital. Communism is a capital system. What most of 
us object to is that it is not a private capital system, it is also not a very efficient capital system. I 
believe we will very shortly find out how grossly inefficient we have allowed our system to become 
- perhaps even this year. Our debt ratio is now worse than Russia's was just before their collapse. 
A very large part of our economy is now dependent upon accelerating increases in debt to 
survive. That is not sustainable.
   Private capitalism is a system where the rulers cannot arbitrarily seize property.
   State capitalism is a system where private property has already been seized.
   To speak of capitalistic systems as not being marginal for this or that reason is a tautology. By 
definition any capital system whether private or state is not marginal.
Peter:
   "Most people try to make the term Capitalism into a political term when it is a purely 
ECONOMIC term.
   "A capitalist system is ANY system, that has something left over at the end of the year, ..."
Lk:
   "Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned. That _implies_ a 
great deal about the political system. For example it implies a political system where the rulers 
cannot arbitrarily seize property." <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15874
From: "Dorr Hanson" 
Subject: Freedom
   Is the principle of freedom in play if: In any given situation, the DECISION can be to be free. It 
comes from within.
Dana

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15875
From: Maryellen
Subject: Re: Reply to Darne/Alan
   Alan, May the Light of God Surround You and the Love of God Enfold you!!
Maryellen

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15876
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
   Deborah Matthies wrote: "Xavier, "That was a really good explanation of the astral. Thanks I 
learned a lot:)"
   Thanks, I did not intend to post it, it was so confused aarrgg

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15877
From: Peter E Monk 
Subject: Thoughts on Aspects of Freedom
   What is the Purpose of freedom?
To: 
Know the Soul
Consciously and Voluntarily Yield
Evolve Ability
Transcend Principle
Decide Intentionally
Experience Living
Inspire Achievement
Expand Awareness
bring about:
True Enlightenment
Spiritual Understanding
Choice of Being
and Divine Clarity
   How is Freedom Realized?
By:
Soul Consciousness
The Ability to accept
The Intention to Transform
The Desire or Decision to Transform
The Joy of Living
Awarenessof Purpose
Growing Enlightenment
True Understanding
Spiritual Choice
Clarity of Being
and Divine co-oneness
   What brings Freedom into Existence?
Healing of the Ego
Transformation of what is Acceptable
The Desires of the Soul
Conscious Aliveness
Healing the Ability to Choose
Understanding the Healing Process
The Intention to Grow
Experience of the Truth
Spiritual Inspiration
and Awareness of the Divine.
   What Expands Freedom?
Acceptance of the Soul
Evolution of Consciousness
Transformation of ability
Living in the Now
Experience of Achievement
Inspired Purpose
True Awareness and awareness of the Truth
Spiritual Enlightenment
The Existence of Understanding
and Choosing the Divine.
   What is True Freedom?
Acceptance of Allowing
Knowing the Ego
Transformation of Consciousness
Ability to desire
the unobstructed Process of Living
Inspired Realization
Belief in the Truth
Spiritual awareness
Being Enlightened
Divine Understanding
Peter (Veda) Monk 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-30/15878
From: "Craig Tholson" 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
   New twist on old theme. A friend on another list came up with this:
   How many know what "Joseph Smith" transliterated into Hebrew characters equals?
Yod 10 J
Vav 6 O
Samech 60 Se
Pey 70 Ph
Samech 60 S
Mem 40 M
Yod 10 I
Tav 400 Th
______________________
666
Yikes!
   "666 is one 6 for each plane, mental astral physical."

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15879
From: Samu Karlsson 
Subject: Semi -OT - Record companies behaving like the Beast?
   From 
http://wallofsound.go.com/news/stories/sherylcrow052600.html
May 26, 2000 
Crow Testifies, Henley Blasted 
   Singer Sheryl Crow testified before the U.S. House of Representatives Subcommittee on 
Courts and Intellectual Property Thursday. Crow came to Washington to express the sentiments 
of a number of recording artists - including Don Henley, Billy Joel, and Fleetwood Mac - who are 
displeased with an amendment made last year to the 1976 Copyright Act that designates sound 
recordings as \"works for hire.\" 
   According to revised law, a \"work for hire\" is considered the property of the employer for whom 
it is created and not of the creator. That means that copyrights to musical works would now 
belong to the record companies for which they\'re made, instead of to the recording artists who 
make them. Prior to the amendment, artists could reclaim the rights to their master recordings 
after 35 years. 
   \"To legislate that the record label should be recognized and credited as the \'author\' of the 
sound recording undermines the framers\' intent of the Constitution and goes against my good 
Midwestern common sense,\" said Crow in her testimony. \"I am the author and creator of my 
work. 
   \"It has been argued that the \'work-for-hire\' amendment was necessary to clarify who is the 
author of the sound recording. There is no confusion in the record industry as to who creates the 
sound recording,\" she continued. \"A sound recording is the final result of the creative vision, 
expression, and execution of one person - the featured artist.\" 
   Artists allege that the change in the law could cost them millions of dollars. They\'re displeased 
that the amendment, which was initiated last year by the Recording Industry Association of 
America, which represents all five major record labels, was signed in November by President 
Clinton without a hearing. 
*snip*
   Read the rest of the article at 
http://wallofsound.go.com/news/stories/sherylcrow052600.html
_______________
Samu Karlsson 
eMail: samu3@dlc.fi
http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3
Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine...
but you already know this, don?t you?

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15880
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
   How about that! Now if you could just translate the left column, and Xavier no cheating, and 
helping him. LOL
   Yea even the Deva's love a Mystery!
Your Friend,
John
   "New twist on old theme. A friend on another list came up with this:" <snip>

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15881
From: "Rob" 
Subject: Degrees of Soul Contact (was Look for Principles)
   "J J Dewey" writes: <snip> "The greatest fire is created by the tiniest most imperceptible spark.
   "Even so soul contact begins as such a "small voice" that you think it is your imagination. But 
each time you trust in it the flame is fanned and grows until the light therefrom is bright and the 
heat is sure and your faith is replaced by knowledge."
<snip>
   One of my biggest misconceptions for a while was that soul-contact was a black and white 
thing--either you're a full-blown channel for the Spirit or you're not. Now I'm beginning to be 
convinced of definite degrees. Here are three I've experienced:
   The ring of truth--Sometimes I read a post here or hear something someone says and it just 
doesn't 'feel' or sound right. But I don't know why and I don't have the truth to set the person 
straight. A basic truth detector.
   "still small voice"--as though a thought is injected into my stream of thinking. It's so subtle I've 
mistaken it for my own thoughts.
   A Definite Intelligent Impression--A mental shift of sorts as though I've just understood the 
punchline of a very clever joke accompanied by the "AH HA!" feeling of 100% certainty. There's a 
definite intelligent message woven within these feelings communicating a call to action the 
specifics of which may or may not be left up to me.
   The above three also have their own degrees. This message was intended for those who feel 
as frustrated with soul contact as I once did. I had a small impression to share my experience 
before checking for new mail. I'm a little scared about what others will think of me for saying that. 
JJ, I can see how someone who's trying to develop their soul-contact would never get bored. :-)
Love,
Rob

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15882
From: "l finghin" 
Subject: Re: Degrees of Soul Contact (was Look for Principles)
Rob:
   The ring of truth--Sometimes I read a post here or hear something someone says and it just 
doesn't 'feel' or sound right. But I don't know why and I don't have the truth to set the person 
straight.
   [ Been there, done that! lk ]
   "still small voice"--as though a thought is injected into my stream of thinking. It's so subtle I've 
mistaken it for my own thoughts.
   [ Ditto, been there, done that. lk ]
   A Definite Intelligent Impression--A mental shift of sorts as though I've just understood the 
punchline of a very clever joke accompanied by the "AH HA!" feeling of 100% certainty.
lk:
   This latter is the one I felt most strongly. I won't go it to details -- it is very personal -- but I have 
had that "AH AH!" experience. It wasn't pleasant -- it pointed out to me a personal defect that I 
needed to correct. It wasn't subtle at all. It was a hammer blow of immediate revelation with a 
"sucker punch" of emotional impact.
   I just wish I could more strongly cultivate the sensitivity to listen. But every day gives us another 
opportunity to hear that voice, and to act on it.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15883
From: xavier 
Subject: Re: [OT]: A question on the beast
   John Wayne Kline wrote: "How about that! Now if you could just translate the left column, and 
Xavier no cheating, and helping him. LOL"
   I sure wouldn't know how to do that. Okay each letter means something, but that's all I know;-)
   I loved to see that Joseph is written Yod Vav Samech Pey ("pey"?? isn't it Phe?) : It is not "Jo", 
but "Yaw" ;-) "YawS'Ph" ;-))) I love it like that, but never loved "joseph".
   On the same ground, why putting a Yod into Smith?
   Vogals are not written, so Smith would rather be Samech Mem Tav.
   (If tav is TH, but isn't there a hebrew letter that reads "th"?)
   How these mental games are entertaining, yet leading astray from principles.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15884
From: J J Dewey 
Subject: 666
Rob,
   Your post warmed my heart. It sounds like you are gaining a better understanding of soul 
contact. The general content of your letter exudes progress.
   Many of the new ones may not be aware of this but Rob is not only my oldest student, but I 
believe my earliest contact on the internet that I am still in communication with. I know he has 
gone through many struggles and frustrations with his search, but he has never given up and now 
I think his persistence is finally bearing fruit.
   The fact that it has been such a struggle for you may be a blessing for this will give you greater 
power in presenting the principle to others as you just did in your post. You used an idea that I 
had not thought of which is that receiving and acknowledging an impression through the soul is a 
little like catching the punch line of a joke. It comes to you in an instant and you just know you got 
it right.
   Craig gives a thought provoking post:
   How many know what "Joseph Smith" transliterated into Hebrew characters equals?
Yod 10 J
Vav 6 O
Samech 60 Se
Pey 70 Ph
Samech 60 S
Mem 40 M
Yod 10 I
Tav 400 Th
______________________
666
   I don't know if anyone else noticed but the numbers presented here ads up to 656 - not 666. It 
always pays to check out everything for your self - you never know what you might discover.
   Actually Craig must have made a typo for the letter pey equals 80 and not 70 which does make 
the result 666.
   But
   Joseph in the Hebrew is spelled with the letters Yod, Vav, Samech and Fey instead of Pey. This 
changes the total to 586.
   To find Joseph's real number in the Hebrew we must take into account that he always signed 
his name as Joseph Smith Jr. Yod and Resh for JR in the Hebrew ads a value of 210 to the 586 
totaling 796.
   Now if we really want to find the Antichrist perhaps we should check out the big guy himself.
   6+6+6=18 and 1+8=9. Thus 9 is the key multiplier of the beast.
   If we take the values of the letters of the name of Jesus and multiply them by 9 here is what we 
get.
J = 90
E = 45
S = 171
U = 189
S = 171
Total
666
   Jesus is called the Christ or the Messiah which has the same meaning in Hebrew. Here again 
we get:
M == 117
E == 45
S == 171
S == 171
I == 81
A == 9
H == 72
Total Again: 666!!
   Thus Jesus the Messiah is double 666. Maybe we'd better burn our Bibles. (This ought to give 
Sterling Food for Thought.)
   Moving ahead to present time let us see where the beast will manifest:
   The real name of Bill Gates is William Henry Gates III. Nowadays he is known as Bill Gates (III), 
where "III" means the order of third (3rd). By converting the letters of his name to the ASCII-
values (which are used in computers) you will get the following:

B I L L G A T E S 3
66 + 73 + 76 + 76 + 71 + 65 + 84 + 69 + 83 + 3 = 666
   The Pope bears the title Vicarius Filii Dei. These words were not invented by the Reformers, or 
bigots, but were used several hundred years before the Protestant Reformation. In Roman 
Numerals, the letters of this title which have assigned value add to 666. For VICARIUS: V = 5, I = 
1, C = 100, I + 1, U (or V) = 5; for FILII: I = 1, L = 50, I = 1, I = 1; for DEI: D = 500, I = 1; totaling 
666.
   Clinton also is suspected of being the beast. Here is a web site dedicated to his exposure: 
http://becomingone.org/666.htm
   Then yet another web site seems to seriously think that David Hasselhoff is the beast. This is 
located at: http://www.esquilax.com/baywatch
   The World Wide Web is abbreviated as WWW and VAV for W in the Hebrew has the value of 6. 
Thus WWW= 666.
   If you wish to find out if you may be the beast go to               
http://huizen.dds.nl/~glage/666/calculator.html
   You can there enter your name and have your numerical value calculated by five different 
methods. I entered mine and received the sums of 1206, 118, 1801, 708, and 2046. I'm sure 
there are some out there who will be disappointed to not find that number in my name. On the 
other hand, if they try enough combinations maybe they'll hit on something.
   I'm not saying that Craig takes this number seriously, but there are those that do. Many there 
are who look for signs outside of themselves rather than relying on the Spirit within. This principle 
cannot be emphasized enough so I will quote a few paragraphs from my book to remind us of the 
teaching.
   "Well," I stumbled again, clearing my throat, "if I am one with God, then I must be God with a 
big G." It sounds weird to say that, but that's my answer."
   "Are you confident in that answer?"
   "Sort of."
   "What makes you sort of confident?"
   "I've had several coincidences pointing me in that direction. I figured they must have happened 
for a reason."
   "So you had some signs leading you toward the answer?" John smiled.
   "I guess you could say that," I replied.
   "Have you read what the Master said about signs?"
   "I think he said several things, didn't he?"
   John got out his old Bible again and turned to Matthew chapter sixteen. "Read verse four," he 
said, pushing the book toward me.
   I carefully held the old book and read: "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a 
sign..."
   I just about dropped the book. "I remember reading this scripture, but I never thought about it in 
the context that is now entering my head. I thought the answer may be that I am God because of 
signs, but Jesus said the wicked seek signs."
   "You were not actively seeking a sign," John assured me, "but several appeared to you and you 
thought they meant something."
   "So are you telling me they didn't mean anything?" I asked, somewhat disappointed.
   "It is true that there is a reason or a cause behind each happening," John replied, "but when 
people see coincidences they often read much more into them than should be. Suppose you roll 
dice hundreds of times. Sooner or later you will roll seven three times in a row. Does that have 
any deep meaning or did it happen just because you rolled the dice many times and the law of 
averages tells us you will eventually roll three sevens?"
   "So, you're saying that coincidences just happen now and then?"
   "Generally, that is the case, but then every once in a while coincidences are contrived by a 
higher power. But what usually happens when a coincidence happens to a superstitious person, 
much more will be read into it than is based in reality."
   "So the fact that both Wayne, Lance and that Dark Brother mentioned man and gods was just 
coincidence and means nothing?"
   "Not entirely," John replied. "You, Wayne, and Lance have been friends for many years and as 
such tune into each other's frequency and share many of the same thoughts. This greatly 
increases the chances that you will all come up with similar conclusions on various ideas. What 
happened with you three was not nearly as much of a coincidence as you thought. You were 
looking for an answer and you were happy that something finally seemed to jump out at you. It 
was no coincidence, however, that the Dark Brother jumped on this. It served his purpose."
   "So, what about the answer, then," I asked. "Is it right or wrong?"
   "Let's regress just a moment," John said, putting his fingers together. "Why do you suppose 
Joshua said a wicked and adulterous generation seeks for a sign? Now in reality wicked means 
mislead. So how is one misdirected who seeks for a sign?"
   "I've never thought of looking for a sign in a negative light. Most people see signs as a positive 
thing." John was silent, evidently waiting for a concise answer. I continued, "OK, let me see. If we 
use a sign to guide our lives then we are using something outside of ourselves. Perhaps we are 
supposed to look within."
   John smiled. "There is hope for you yet. I think your light is increasing. Now what is adulterous 
about seeking a sign for guidance?"
   "That's a tough one. I don't see a lot of relation there."
   "There is a lot of correspondence here, said John. "Answer me this: What is adultery?"
   "It's where a person betrays his marriage partner and has a sexual relationship with someone 
else" I replied.
   "And who is your spiritual marriage partner supposed to be?"
   "You mean someone other than my physical wife?"
   "Yes."
   "Could it be God?"
   "You are correct. This is taught throughout the scriptures. The Israelites are called the Bride of 
Jehovah throughout the Old Testament and the Church is called the Bride of Christ in the New. 
Both Israel and the Church are symbols of those who have the light of the Spirit of God within 
them. So how does a bride of Christ or God commit adultery?"
   "Perhaps by leaving God and leaning on or uniting with someone else, or another God."
   "Very close," said John. "The brother of light senses the Spirit of God within himself and has 
made a commitment to follow it and be one with it, similar to a marriage relationship. If he actively 
seeks a sign outside of himself for his main source of guidance, this causes a shift of attention 
away from the Spirit. So his God becomes a false God outside of himself and the inner God is 
ignored and betrayed. He has committed adultery against his only true source of guidance, which 
places a black wall between his personality self and the God within."
   "Fascinating," I said, feeling like Spock again. "So the New Agers, who are always teaching 
about the God within - yet at the same time are always seeking coincidences and signs - are 
really teaching one thing and doing another?"
   "They are not alone," John smiled. "On the other side of the spectrum, the very religious also 
seek for signs rather than an answer from God through prayer as they claim to teach."
   I haven't forgotten the topic of freedom my friends. I will be posting on this subject shortly.
   In the meantime we have had some great posts on it.
   Peter Monk certainly shows a lot of promise with his post. I'm sure a lot of thought went into it.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards."
Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey
All Rights Reserved

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15885
From: Marylin
Subject: Re: 666-comment and question
   J J writes: "6+6+6=18 and 1+8=9. Thus 9 is the key multiplier of the beast."    Very, very 
interesting. Just an OT comment that 9 is also the number that finds transpositions imbedded in a 
very long printed calculator tab. In my working days at a bank when we still used adding 
machines, that number 9 came in handy many times.
   Question: What system of numbering is used here? I am very familiar with A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, 
and etc. through the alphabet. There is another method that I no longer have that made the sums 
come up differently. My name this method comes out to 11, but the other method it came out to 9. 
I think I like the first method best. Easier to remember.
Love, Light, Peace and Harmony
Marylin

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15886
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: Re: 666-comment and question
   Marylin you are very perceptive. Nine is the number of the foundation of the Archetypal man 
Adam Kadmon, and 6+6+6=9 when reduced to its primal number. This is pure Kabala but their 
interpretation as Xavier pointed out is an extreme stretch of the imagination. It tells us one thing. 
Whoever did this has a very poor knowledge of true Kabala. Each letter in the Hebrew alphabet 
has a numerical equivalent. They are using combinations here to make an equation fit the letters 
rather than the letters fitting the equation.
   The Left Column is two four letter formulas which has a lot of meaning, which is the first thing 
that grabbed my attention. The right column is a false trail, the left column is where the real 
mystery lies, and I doubt the person on the other list has the faintest clue to it's true power and 
real significance.
Your Friend,
John

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15887
From: Sharon and Richard
Subject: OY Xavier
   i didn't want too much time to go before i was able to thank you for your posting on 666. First 
time it actually makes sense.
   And you weren't the least bit confused.
love to all, sharon

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15888
From: Lynn
Subject: Re: Greed
Hi All,
   This is what network marketing is all about...
Later,
Lynn
   "As the new age does come in more solidly those who do have abundance will not only share, 
but lend a helping hand to others less fortunate until all shall have their needs taken care of.
   "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have 
been doing so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."
Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey
All Rights Reserved"

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15889
From: (Jean)
Subject: re: 666
   It is strange how people jump at signs, I have heard so many people come to me with the www 
equals 666, the first thing I tell them is how much good comes from the internet, I mean look at all 
you guys! 
   I mentioned on Johns forum and thought I would bring it up here since we are on the subjects of 
signs....
   I was reading today on a book I have of John of the Cross, well this particular story stuck out at 
me today, while he was traveling, there was a woman believed to have the mark of the stigmata, 
well all the priests and such wanted to observe this and bring back "replicas" of the blood on the 
cloth etc, (you get my drift), John refused to go, (for the very reason mentioned, about people 
looking for signs instead of within), John recognized this woman for what she was. 
   Now I am not saying the stigmata is wrong by all means! What I am saying is later this woman 
was found out to be false, John of the Cross knew this, he looked within, his answers depended 
on his holy spirit not on the signs around us. I just thought it was interesting and wanted to share, 
coincidentally what I read fit in with what we are talking about today, and no I don't mean as in 
sign form! LOL
Love to all of you,
Jean
My included homepage:
http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime

Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-31/15890
From: Lorraine Brutsman 
Subject: The Gathering
Hi Keysters,
   Today is the first day of June. Well, for most of us anyway. the Gathering is in 15 days. I will 
send a copy to all that I know is coming so each of you will know who else is coming next week. 
There are a few left who have announced their intention but have not sent the money yet. If you 
are close enough to me to get it here by Wed June 7th that's fine. If you want to come but you 
can't get the money to me before the 7th email me of your intent so I can still count you and you 
can bring the money order with you. I need an accurate head count by wed the 7th. On Wed or 
so, I will notify everyone who's name I have. You should see your own name and the names of 
everyone else who is coming. We are nearing the 30 mark now. 
   Weather report, McCall is dropping down into the 30's at night. We are suppose to be warming 
up though. Every cabin has a fireplace/pot belly stove in it. 
The energy is growing. Can you feel it?
Lorraine
   PS Rob, if I had to explain what soul communication was like, I would have said exactly what 
you said. That is about the same way I get mine. Some times different, but that's the majority.

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15891
From: Rick Audette 
Subject: More Petra Previews
   http://petracity.intercosmos.com/page_13.htm
   some interesting illustrations have been added on page 12 and 13, in which Petra meets 
individuals from her past, including a Lemurian and a French Crusader. I'll be adding more text 
soon. The Crusader is going to be telling her some very unusual things about the "discovery" of 
America and a well known image.
See you in the comics,
Rick
-- 
ICQ # 19753992
visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/
and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html
The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com
have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*
I'm only in it for the thrill

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15892
From: Sharri Lorraine 
Subject: Re: 666-comment and question
   Marylin wrote: "[.........] Question: What system of numbering is used here?" 
   Are you thinking of Chaldian?
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
A B C D E U O F
I K G M H V Z P
J R L T N W
Q - S - X
Y (horizontal doesn't come out very well, here's vertical)
***
1= A I J Q Y
2= B K R
3= C G L S
4= D M T
5= E H N X
6= U V W
7= O Z
8= F P
   Notice there is no 9. That is because all the other numbers add up to 9, so it is a repeat. 
Chaldian comes much closer to giving Modern English Alphabet Hebrew numeric equivalents 
than does the Pythagorean method:
1= A J S
2= B K T
3= C L U
4= D M V
5= E N W
6= F O X
7= G P Y
8= H Q Z
9= I R
   JJ, do you have the Alpha/Numeric Hebrew/English equivalents? Could you please post that? 
Thanks!
Namast?
{\@/}
/ \
* _\|/_ ~*~%~*~%~*~
JOY & Illumination & Laughter-Bubbles!
:) :)
Sharri Lorraine
   (Please bookmark & stop by The Hunger Site (http://www.thehungersite.com) once a day to 
make a free donation of much needed food to hungry people around the world. Their sponsors 
pay for your donation.)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15893
From: Marylin
Subject: Re: 666-comment and question
   Sharri writes: "Are you thinking of Chaldian? Notice there is no 9. That is because all the other 
numbers add up to 9, so it is a repeat. Chaldian comes much closer to giving Modern English 
Alphabet Hebrew numeric equivalents than does the Pythagorean method:"
Hi Sharri
   I didn't know that the different methods had names. LOL Shows you how much I know about 
numbers. I learned the 1 to 9 method from the Edgar Cayce teachings and the 2nd method I 
talked about was received from another list, but if I still have it, it's hiding on a disk somewhere 
that I haven't opened for a couple of years. 
   This is the first time I have heard that the numbers go 1 to 8. I'll have to give that method a go 
at and see what my number is that way. That second method....when I used it on my kids' names, 
they all came out to 666.......still don't know what to think about that. So we have one 9 and four 
666s, I don't remember if I did their dad's or not. This occurred about 4 years ago.
   Another question, sort of: I have never understood how to use these numbers in my life. There 
must be a purpose for them....
Love, Light, Peace and Harmony
Marylin

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15894
From: J J Dewey 
Subject: Hebrew letters/numbers
   You can find the Hebrew letter & number equivalents at:
http://av1611.org/666/www_666.html
   I plan on writing a major post on freedom tonight.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards."
Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey
All Rights Reserved

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15895
From: Deborah Matthies 
Subject: Job
Hi Everyone, 
   I want to Thank All of you for remembering me in saying the song:) I did get the job today and I 
start on monday the 19th. This will be a great boost in our income and I will be doing something I 
love. 
Love Always,
Deborah 

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15896
From: Sharon and Richard
Subject: OT Deborah
   What a great call, you must be so proud of your self.
love to all, sharon

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15897
From: "John Wayne Kline" 
Subject: RE: Job
   Congratulations Deb, glad to hear it! You deserve it!
Your Friend,
John

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15898
From: "Craig Tholson" 
Subject: On Paradigm Shifting
   The desire to protect ourselves from change probably does more harm to the flowering of 
human life and spirit than almost any other choice. But it is imperative to understand something 
about security: it isn't secure. Everything about security is contrary to the central fact of existence 
- life changes. By trying to shelter ourselves from change, we isolate ourselves from living. By 
avoiding risk, we may feel safe and secure, or at least experience a tolerable parody thereof, but 
we don't avoid the harrangs of our consciences. It's almost axiomatic that the important risks we 
don't take now, become the regrets we have later. In fact, I was once told that if I'm not failing 
regularly, I'm living so far below my potential, that I'm failing anyway.
   The more time we spend locked in our studies with our slippers by the desk, our books 
arranged alphabetically on the shelves, and our pencils sharpened, just the way we like them, the 
less time we have to frighten ourselves with the uncertainties of the road and the anxieties of 
adventure. We can comfort ourselves with the thought that if none of our dreams come true, then 
at least neither will our nightmares.
   Hidden deep in the clockworks of the heart, though, is the beneficent fear of living life, as Henry 
Miller once put it, without ever leaving the birdcage, and we need to touch that fear. (Greg Levoy)

Post No. keys-l: /2000-06-01/15899
From: Joseph Hunt
Subject: WHO IS THE ANTI-CHRIST?
   J.J. wrote: "If you wish to find out if you may be the beast go to 
http://huizen.dds.nl/~glage/666/calculator.html"
   Our bodies are thought projections. We, in the pure spirit (soul) state, being a part of God 
Himself, (Image and Likeness), shared His creative power but abused it by the wrongful exercise 
of our free wills and projected ourselves into the material plane to assert our own godhood (Tree 
of Knowledge) seeking to be 'separate but equal' (Adam & Eve). We then, through eventually 
inhabiting bodies full time, lost our link, our consciousness as to who and what we truly are, and 
fell into permanent human form and could not return until one of us (Jesus the Christ) found 
complete unity with the Creator through at-onement, and showed us the path to follow to that 
reunion.
   Today, they use the term, "atonement for sins." Actually, it should be used as "at one ment" to 
compensate for our memory loss and to reorient ourselves towards the spirit and away from the 
flesh. Thus, what we call "Original Sin," is actually a progression in our species of our memory 
loss of just who and what we truly are. And as long as man thinks himself as a physical human 
plus soul, instead of a soul trapped in an enemy body, a projection of our thoughts that we 
created out of the rebellion of selfishness, we will remain in that state.
   We often look to "miraculous healings" as signs that some event is supernaturally authentic. Yet 
few understand that such healings come from inside ourselves because we somehow were 
graced to use our powers, shared with the Creator, to alter the projection of ourselves into a more 
"desirable" physical form. Yet in fixing and restoring ours or others' bodies, we perpetuate the 
myth that we are 'well' in perfecting the flesh, which is the direct enemy to our natural state of 
existence as pure spirit-souls. This is why God the Father says that "Cancer is the cure!!"
   With knowledge of the nature of suffering, we can use it as a powerful tool, to:
1) divorce ourselves from our thought-projected bodies, which is a much lower state than in spirit, 
and
2) like a magnifying lens, extend our (Creator's) powers, through "redemptive suffering" to others 
in the flesh trap, to grant them a path of permanent divorce from their imperfection of living in 
material bodies.
   Since we are all in a spiritual kindergarten, it is necessary to use what we call "prayers" to focus 
the power the Creator shares with us as His constituent parts, or extensions. We appeal 
externally to Jesus, Mary, the angels and saints, imploring them to do something about our sad 
lot, when Jesus, Mary, the angels and saints keep imploring us to see that we must go within and 
unify with them and God and be a lens, or "be a sign" to others. This is graduation to the first 
grade. And college is a long way off....
   Jesus said, "Did I not tell you, ye are gods?" This makes no sense unless one understand the 
above lesson. We, as constituent parts of God are only in our natural state when we are in the 
purely spiritual state without bodies. In that state we see ourselves as we truly are, a progression 
of errors in our thought projections into various bodies who keep committing "sins." Sins are 
absolute denials of who we are by assuaging our bodies through choosing physical pleasure and 
its greed, while validating these grievous errors in ourselves through judging and condemning all 
individuals and groups who interfere with our blindness in any fashion. We always see the "Devil" 
without, particularly in our fellows, but rarely the "Devil" within.
   Still, we can slowly improve in finding reunion with our Creator. Our true Father wants the 
reunion complete, with no more wandering about in the material plane. Once we all do this, the 
material universe will cease to exist, as it will have no further Creative Will keeping it present.
   What is "judgment" that we hear occurs after death? That judgment is our own discovery of how 
blind we were while in the flesh. Those of us who misused our creative and spiritual powers to 
rival God himself, such as in judging our fellow souls, must either elect to stay in the low spiritual 
plane in which we now find ourselves, which is as high as the fourth spiritual region of the 
'heavens' which will pass away, as Jesus noted, or elect to go back to square one and try all over 
again to reach union with the Creator, with no knowledge of our past embodiments, and no 
knowledge of our true, complete natures.
   Those who choose reincarnation never have their free will violated. They choose just what 
family, where and when they will go, knowing in advance what they will suffer throughout that 
lifetime before, but never after, choosing. They choose such sufferings in advance as trials that 
make them able to uplift their spiritual state, not their bodies, if they discover the truth about just 
who they are. Thus, Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life, for He laid the path for us: in Him, 
through Him, and with Him. Jesus the Christ is perfection incarnate and we can only rise if we 
imitate Him and follow everything He said. His Sacraments are the safe path through the 
minefield of human ego, and the shortcut to the WHOLE Kingdom, without and within.
   Each soul carries forward the innate capabilities, (which we here call "talent") we gathered in 
past experiences that make success possible. But, since we are a duality of soul and body while 
on Earth, we also carry forward innate defects, or "debts" we must compensate for in this new 
embodiment (live by the sword in one life, die by the sword in another,--debt paid). Thus, 
throughout our human lives, we rise and fall in the constant war between talents and debts (good 
and evil) and hope to rise by the eleventh hour, so that we no longer need to choose to 
reincarnate and can remain in the highest spiritual region, "Heaven" (capital H).
   "Heaven" is the highest state that will not pass away, where we share the One, "inherit the 
Kingdom" within and without, and return to our original glory in being His glory, where we are still 
individuals, yet One with the Creator in an intimate companionship with Him that can never be 
understood by humans still in body. In this intimate One-ness, we are, indeed, "gods." That is 
what we were originally, and that is where we seek to finally return.
   So, just who is this "Anti-Christ"? The answer will surprise you. Remember, very few visionaries 
understand what is given them from above, as they are selected as a representative of all around 
them who have no idea of just who they truly are, and are equally blind.
   It is each of us who are a heavenly body from a supernatural sphere. Each of us is in duality, 
talent vs. debt, good vs. evil. Thus, the Anti of Christ is us, it is our refusal within to accept what 
the Perfection, Jesus, labored to teach us. And such refusals, called "sins" are definitely the Anti 
of Christ.
   Think of the term Jesus used above: "body." As usual