2000 - WEEK 20 Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15412 From: Glenys Subject: Re: OT-Phoebe was Zapped Margaret Leach wrote: "BTW, JJ, your "zapped" by Zor message was GREAT!!!" And prophetic as well - for Phoebe at least :-) "I'm going to print it out and take it over to Phoebe so she can enjoy it too!" Give her our love and tell her we're looking forward to her being back with us soon. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I don't know what your destiny will be, but one thing I do know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve. - Albert Schweitzer Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15413 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: OT - Geoffrey's pic! Dear Friends, :) Briton Light Geoffrey: http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/KeystersPhotoAlbum.html#Geoffrey Much Love, Samu _______________ Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15414 From: Rick Audette Subject: [OT] Petra's Pet Chapter 4 Constant Companion, in which Petra takes a pause from meeting the people behind the four walls and thinks up a pet, for her home, based on illustration by M.C.Esher. Just added another illustration to that page, tonight, in which the curl-up (Rachel and I are thinking of calling him Izzy, as in "what is he") leads Petra to the stain glass window and points to it. For those that are not familiar with the illustrations of M.C.Escher, a curl-up, a.k.a. Wentelteefje, Krempeltirchen or Le roulenboule, is an imaginary creature with 6 legs and a segmented body. Nobody knows whether it is a mammal, reptile or insect. It normally walks around on it's legs, but when suitable surfaces are available, it can curl up and roll like a wheel. I am still learning how to create animations with my software and he is a real challenge, because of all his parts, but I have managed to create a little animated GIF of him curling up. It won't be used in the comic, but you can see it at: http://petracity.intercosmos.com/curl1.gif It took three separate programs to create, Autocad, 3D Max and Animation Shop. Almost all of the illustrations, used in the comic, take at least three programs to create and then a couple more to get them on the www. As always, I am open to others assisting in writing the lessons presented to Petra. Lessons cover subjects covered in the Keys. If you'd like to write a teacher/student dialog, to be included in the story, let me know and I'll create the characters to go with it. I will add the names of each contributing writer to the credits on the index page. See you in the comics, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15415 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: music at the gathering Samu says, you gotta learn and play Joan Osborne's "What if God was one of us" at the Gathering. Unfortunately I can't make it to Idaho, it's just a little too early in the summer for me, but I know JJ plus many others love that song, it's a must, mark my words :) Just played it on my guitar last night, it's not a hard one at all, in the key of F#m. Just go for it! :) Well, ya better send me the chords, 'cause I've been playing it in the key of A Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15416 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: music at the gathering Rick says, regarding ?One of Us?: "Well, ya better send me the chords, \'cause I\'ve been playing it in the key of A" Rick, :) really? I?ve been playing along with the cd, in F#m. The verse and chorus repeat F#m, D, A, E over and over, and the bridge part that goes ?Yea, yea, God is great, yea, yea, God is good? has Cmaj7 and D in it, or at least those 2 chord sounded good for my ears :) Oops, did a quick search and found this one page http://www.cosmic-kitchen.com/Songs/JoanOsborne/OneOfUs.html where it says that the chords for the bridge part are D and E. This could be, as I don?t usually memorize the chords by name but by the position on the neck, 3rd or 5th fret, but now I am not sure which one it was, duh :) But grab your guitar and try! :) Love, Samu _______________ Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15417 From: Marylin Subject: Re: What and where is soul? Maryellen writes: "How did you stare at your own forehead?" Hi Maryellen Sorry, I forgot to mention that, didn't I? In our main bathroom there is a small closet with a white door directly across from the sink. It worked great. There isn't another place in this whole house that I could have accomplished that, but my own personal project now, to see the auras of others without white backgrounds. For years now I have been able to see the auras of trees. I just wasn't sure then if that was what I was really seeing. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15418 From: J J Dewey Subject: Thoughts on Abortion My Friends, Haven't meant to ignore you. Been very busy as usual plus my wife and I spent some time showing appreciation to our mothers. Even though I love my Father (now passed away) there's something special about the place in the heart that is had by a loving mother. My father inspired me with his genius, but my mother has always made my heart full with her love and sacrifice. Glad you liked my feeble attempt at humor with the Big Zap. A little levity is like a healing balm at times. I was glad to see Marylin comment on her attempt to see auras. I think we have only had a couple comments so far. Either most of the group did not try the exercise or you tried it and were unimpressed. If any others tried the exercises and I would be interested in your comments, especially if you were successful. Well, some issues have surfaced here that could keep us busy for months, but we'll try and cover them briefly so we can go forward with our subject and perhaps cover them in greater detail later. I'll give you a few of my thoughts on abortion. The first thing of note is that even though the Bible is used extensively to preach against abortion, it says virtually nothing in support of anti abortion views. The only evidence it gives as to when life begins is hinted at in the creation of Adam that he became a "living soul" when the breath of life entered into him. Of course, the breath of life enters into a baby when he is born and takes a breath. There are two accounts in the Bible that I know of that have some application to abortion. The first is in Exodus 21:22-23 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. "And if any mischief follow (if the woman dies), then thou shalt give life for life." This is a circumstance worse than a doctor aborting a child on the request of a female. Here it seems to be describing some sort of an attack on an expecting mother. Note the difference in the punishments meted out. If the unborn baby dies the offender will receive a punishment, but not receive the death penalty. On the other hand, if he kills the mother in the attack he is to suffer death. The point made here is that the ancients saw both injuries as crimes, but saw the death of the living mother as much more serious than that of the unborn child. Numbers 5:11-31 gives an interesting account of what to do if your wife is suspected of sleeping with another person and getting pregnant. She is commanded to drink a bitter potion and if she has not sinned all will be well and "she shall conceive seed." If she is guilty she shall become ill and have no child. Here the Bible actually seems to condone abortion where birth is undesirable. What we must also consider here is that these ancient laws were given to a primitive people and if the Masters were to give us new laws today they would be worded much differently in many cases. Here is the truth the way I see it. Each must check with his own soul and follow the highest he sees for himself. The entity makes a magnetic connection with the mother often before conception occurs and a form of psychic interplay occurs. In between lives the Solar Angel in connection with the entity reprograms the permanent physical atom to lay the foundation for the creation of a better physical body than before. At or near conception the reprogrammed atom enters into the womb and begins the process of building. There are exceptions. There are times when one entity starts building a body and then one of higher evolution and mission sees an unique opportunity in the birth situation and trades places with the original entity. Then there are also cases of trading places shortly after birth as well as later on in life. This can create a disadvantage for the new entity and he will often seem a little slow in learning in the early years, but become very advanced after age 14 after he builds a completely new body from his own atomic programming. Overall the soul begins anchoring a magnetic link to the physical body around the time of conception. For the soul there is an awareness of this link, but the conscienceless is not in the body within the womb. This link is made stronger until near the time of birth when consciousness begins to enter into the baby's body. This consciousness is brought to a greater awakening at birth and the first breath. But even here the soul does not fully function in the body. The anchoring and entering of the soul solidly in the body then proceeds for another 7-8 years until full self awareness is achieved. Question: If the soul is not in the body in the womb then how is it that the fetus can react to pain and that it sleeps, wakes up and moves and is obviously alive? The body of the fetus is animated by a group of elemental lives functioning through the developing centers and the brain of the new body. Also the soul has some communion from a distance and will sometimes contact the parents on subtle planes. Over all we have four periods of varying seriousness in the taking of a life. (1) From Conception to just before birth. The loss of the life here can interrupt the plans of the soul in some cases, but not in others. If the plans are interfered with then a fairly short period of time is wasted for in this age of booming population birth opportunities usually abound for those who are seeking earth plane existence. There are cases where the parents present a unique opportunity for the child and in this situation the soul suffers a major setback. Every possible signal will be sent to the parents to not abort, if such a thought is in their minds. (2) From birth to full self consciousness. Here the loss of life is more serious for the soul has energy and time invested in the new life. (3) From 8 years until retirement from learning. Unexpected loss of life during this period is the most serious of all for it interferes with established plans of the soul as well as causing a large block of wasted time. Often times the soul will have to plan another entire life to make up for the interruption. It also produces serious discomfort for loved ones depending and associating with him. (4) Old age, or that age when learning gas come to a stand still. For about 90% or more the learning of life's lessons come to a standstill at old age. For others who are slackers it may come earlier in life. When life's lessons are over the entity in the body may still enjoy life and his family, but from the point of view of the soul the purpose of the life is over and there is nothing of importance left for the entity to learn. Therefore, a loss of life at this point is less serious for it does not interfere with the plans of the soul. Family members and loved ones may be distressed over the loss, but they will feel consoled that the person has lived a full life. Now let's get down to the prime question. Is aborting a fetus murder in the same category as killing a fully conscious entity? No it is not as serious. Is it wrong then? There is cause and effect to all actions including abortion. The karma derived therefore is not a serious as the killing of a fully developed human, but there is usually negative karma nevertheless. One possible repercussion is that the time will come when the entity who was responsible for the abortion seeks a new life in ideal circumstances for progression and he himself finds his opportunity terminated through abortion. Note that I said there is usually negative karma? There is a way out in some circumstances. If the parents contact the entity in the subtle planes and get permission to abort the child the negative karma will be neutralized. In this age of great population increase there are many instances where the entity is drawn back to the earth prematurely and such entity may desire a longer rest between lives. If in this case permission is granted to the parents to abort there will be none to accuse and where there is none to accuse karma is negligible. The problem is the same with abortion as it is for many other problems. The majority take an extremist position. One side says that it is murder in every case and the other says there is no harm done in any case. Both of these extremes are incorrect for the only way one could know for sure about the degree of harm is through revelation. Barring such a revelation it is a good idea to live one's life responsibly so such a painful and dangerous decision as abortion can be avoided. "Words are things and a small drop of ink, falling like dew upon a thought - produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions think." Byron Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15419 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion On not one occasion in this post do you take into account the effect of a pregnancy termination on the lives of the children who ARE affected ... *** The ones who follow in the womb of the mother who had the termination *** And the child who knew mother was pregnant .. and knew absolutely the sex of the child and saw mother deliberately kill the child .. *** How do you think this affects the relationship of the mother with her still living children. *** You can take all of what you write on the subject of abortion, *** and to the child who saw mother exterminate a sibling consciously these lies of so-called spirituality mean nothing *** Try, JJ, just for once and consider all of the adults now, who once were children who carry this memory ...... *** There are a lot of them Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15420 From: Christopher Wynter Subject [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion .. 2 JJ wrote: 'The body of the fetus is animated by a group of elemental lives functioning through the developing centers and the brain of the new body. Also the soul has some communion from a distance and will sometimes contact the parents on subtle planes." Then how do you explain that a child can know mother is pregnant even before the mother does ... and that the child can communicate with the foetus .... and that as the children grow up, both children have a full memory of this communication .... Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15421 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion .. 3 J J wrote: "(4) Old age, or that age when learning gas come to a stand still. For about 90% or more the learning of life's lessons come to a standstill at old age. For others who are slackers it may come earlier in life. When life's lessons are over the entity in the body may still enjoy life and his family, but from the point of view of the soul the purpose of the life is over and there is nothing of importance left for the entity to learn. Therefore, a loss of life at this point is less serious for it does not interfere with the plans of the soul. Family members and loved ones may be distressed over the loss, but they will feel consoled that the person has lived a full life." The greatest lesson learned is at the end of old age .. at the point just before death, when the soul realises that, as it looks back over the past life, it has not learned and made real the purpose of its incarnation ... and has to come back into the body and do it all again ..... for the simple reason it knows that, without the brain, thought cannot be created to clear the layers of the soul from self judgment. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15422 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion ... 4 J J wrote: "Now let's get down to the prime question. Is aborting a fetus murder in the same category as killing a fully conscious entity? "No it is not as serious." Have you ever experienced carrying on a conversation by telepathy with a 3 month old foetus in utero .. and watching the response of the foetus on an ultrasound .. I have .. and I have watched a foetus respond to its brother and sister .... and I have seen a foetus move away from a needle inserted in the womb ... and you want to say that a foetus does not have consciousness? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15423 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion ... 5 "This consciousness is brought to a greater awakening at birth and the first breath. JJ" The foetus is breathing in utero .. both as a fish breathes under water .. and through the receiving of oxygen through the bloodstream of mother. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15424 From: Peter Subject: Sv: Re: Extreme Views Maryellen wrote: I just want to make a comment that may sound a bit unusual. I have been in a marriage that has been quite unfulfilling and for the past 7 years my husband has taken various jobs in different locations. At best, he was able to come here for one day each week. My son, now 10 does not remember "Dad" ever living here with him. Here is the unusual part. I hear so many people commenting about how they have stayed "together" in their marriage for the sake of the children. And how devastated they would be if the couple divorced. In my case I have come to think that perhaps I "should" divorce for the sake of the children. And for my sake too. What kind of father role model does my son have? He has a father but that father is not a part of his life. I am in a way denying or depriving him of a real father. I too, am in a marriage, but without the partnership or any companionship whatsoever. So on paper we are a family, but in reality, we are just stuck with the legality with no freedom to develop a real "love" relationship and no possibility for a "real" father for my children. As one friend put it. "Our family is really only a pretend family." Peter: I think I know how you must feel. I know the situation, but from another perspective. I have lived without a father all my life - and I do see now, being 32 years old, that a lot of things that people who live with both their parents - I haven't learnt at all. But as you describe your situation - my mother was forced to make a decision and leave my father, which I think was the right decision. When I tried to contact him 10 years later (being 17) he died in a solo accident, driving his car into a tree. So the only thing to do is probably to follow your inner light, even though it maybe makes a lot of noise for a while. Because if you denying yourself the right to follow the best - you cannot possibly do anything good for you son. My mother made the right choice in leaving my father - and then made a lot of bad choices (but probably the best she could do) after that. My point is, that I think that it is good to break up if a relationship is standing in the way for feeling your inner light in you life. To discern if it is the relationship or something else inside of your that is the block is the big job. Love from Peter A southern Scandinave traveling with my baby-babelfish - very needed in a small language area. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15425 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Aging .. or Growing Old The full text of this article can be found at http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,35337,00.html Until recently, researchers thought that cells stopped dividing as people aged. The study found, however, that cells continue to divide, but errors during the process cause the changes in our bodies associated with aging. "Aging is a result of the misregulation of genes -- in a normal [and young] body, cell division is highly regulated by checkpoints," said Danith Ly, lead author of a study published Science Magazine Checkpoints are like a border patrol, Ly explained, and DNA is like a car coming through. As we get older, there's no guard to check for illegal substances, so bad cells are bound to pass through. The researchers examined 6,800 genes associated with aging by using DNA microarrays, or chips, to look at gene-expression patterns. "This takes us away from the picture that everything becomes dysfunctional with age," said Mike Mullan, director of the Roskamp Institute at the University of South Florida "It suggests that the major function of genes remains normal with age, and is not impaired." Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15426 From: Marylin Subject: Re: [Jytte] Re: Discernment Craig writes: "LOL - Lots Of Love? Lots Of Luck?" Love Of Life Love Of Laughing Laughing Out Loud List On Left Left On List Leave Out Lumps "ROFL- Realgentlemen Only F___ Ladies? Regarding Only Fat Ladies? Reno Only Fakes Ladyhood" Rolling On Floor Laughing ROFLOL - Rolling On Flour Laughing Out Loud "IMHO- In My Humble Opinion" "FYI - For Your Information" Funny Yellow Insects "FWIW - For What Its Worth" "BTW - By The Way" Beat The Wimp Brave The Wind "Help! Craig" Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15427 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion .. a final comment *** Having been in the position of holding a medically terminated foetus .. so small that it fitted into the palm of my hand .. *** terminated because it had a genetic disease that, if the pregnancy had gone on, the mother's life would have been at risk ... *** Having held a still born child ... *** Having assisted as a midwife at the birth of a number of children *** having sat with a mother as she faced the decision of saving either the life of her grandchild or her daughter .. because if the grandchild was to be born alive, the daughter would have died ... *** having worked with another woman whose mother made such a decision about her child ... *** I would not attempt to state the rights and wrongs of termination, life and death in such a manner as you have done, JJ ... *** Nor would I even think of looking at the biblical pro's and con's .. *** nor would I dare to make the sweeping generalisations that you have made *** The respect you show for another is the reflection of the respect you have for your self .. and your own ... *** If it was you, your life .. and your child, I wonder if you would have the same attitudes *** By what authority? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15428 From: "susan carter" Subject: OT Spiritual Partnership This was written by Gary Zukav. I applied it to us wanting to create Molecular Relationships. What is spiritual partnership? You talk about spiritual partners. What does this mean? Spiritual partnership is partnership between equals for the purpose of spiritual growth. It is not only a relationship between intimately bonded couples who live in the same house or apartment. It is a way of relating with everyone all of the time. Equal means that none of the partners is superior or inferior. They are equal, no matter how different they are. Equality requires respect and appreciation. It creates openness and sharing. It makes growing together an adventure, even when things get rough. Spiritual means having to do with your soul. Your soul is the part of you that longs for harmony, cooperation, sharing, and reverence for Life. It is the part of you that existed before you were born, and that will exist after you die. It's the essence of what you are. When you only see your personality, you think that you are only a body and a mind. When you begin to look at yourself as a soul, too, everything begins to change. Spiritual growth is learning how to align your personality with your soul. Intimate relationships are especially helpful. They bring up everything that stands between you and harmony, cooperation, sharing, and reverence for Life. Every relationship does, but when you are with the same person every day and night, for a long time, you get to know more about each other. You get to know each others habits. You see each others fears. You also see each others joys. Spiritual partners love to talk about these things. There is a saying, "Sorrow shared is halved and joy shared is doubled." That is true. Sharing joys and sorrows are only one of the benefits of spiritual partnership. Learning about yourself is another. Learning how to care for another person, if you have been selfish is another. Learning how to care about yourself if you have never done that, is yet another. There are many more, too. It takes courage to be in a relationship with another human. You know that you are in a relationship if the person that you are with is irreplaceable to you. When another person's struggles, history, and aspirations are important to you, that is also a sign that you are in a relationship. When you see yourself and others as souls, you automatically begin to see yourself and them as equals. When you know that there is a reason for your being together, and that reason has to do with your spiritual growth, that is a spiritual partnership. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15429 From: J J Dewey Subject: Pre-Natal Consciousness Chris writes: I would not attempt to state the rights and wrongs of termination, life and death in such a manner as you have done, JJ ... Nor would I even think of looking at the biblical pro's and con's .. nor would I dare to make the sweeping generalisations that you have made The respect you show for another is the reflection of the respect you have for your self .. and your own ... If it was you, your life .. and your child, I wonder if you would have the same attitudes By what authority? JJ Sounds like I pushed some buttons here. I do not need any authority to say anything I want. I can just type on this little keyboard to my hearts content. The reader can use the authority of the soul to discover the truth or error of anything I say. Chris: On not one occasion in this post do you take into account the effect of a pregnancy termination on the lives of the children who ARE affected ... JJ There are lots of things I do not have time to mention. That's one of the reasons that we have members posting to the list. They write many interesting truths that I do not mention. I stated that in most cases there are negative effects from abortion. You could have a point with births following the abortion, but I think the problem can be easily overridden by a mothers love and acceptance. Chris Then how do you explain that a child can know mother is pregnant even before the mother does ... and that the child can communicate with the foetus .... and that as the children grow up, both children have a full memory of this communication .... JJ I have taken people back to the womb and even back to the moment of conception and believe me the intelligence and awareness is not as sparkling as you present. Memories and impressions are recorded from the time of conception, but full awareness is not there. The soul is loosely linked to the body and any really intelligent communication would come from that source, but that would not be the norm unless a person is very sensitive to the soul. All one has to do to realize that the soul gradually takes command of the body is to look back on your own life. Most of us have no memories of before the age of four because there is no self awareness. Our consciousness goes through, for about four years, one similar to the animal kingdom where individualization has not taken place. I can remember my consciousness from the ages of 4-8 and I know from memory that my soul was more firmly anchored at 8 than it was at 4. I have taken many people back to the early ages up to the time of birth and it is obvious from their accounts that their self consciousness was not firmly anchored at that time, even though full memory is recorded from the time of conception. There is also quite a difference in the consciousness in the womb and the consciousness shortly after birth. To discover this you have observe more than memory and instinctive response. Chris The greatest lesson learned is at the end of old age .. at the point just before death, when the soul realizes that, as it looks back over the past life, it has not learned and made real the purpose of its incarnation ... and has to come back into the body and do it all again ..... for the simple reason it knows that, without the brain, thought cannot be created to clear the layers of the soul from self judgment. JJ If what you say is true then people who die violent and quick deaths would be denied this opportunity. Now there is truth to the statement of a person's life flashing before his eyes near the point of death, especially as an unexpected accident seems eminent. It is shortly after death, however that the person goes through a review of his life and then takes with him the memories of the three most important lessons learned. This knowledge would not be garnered from a near death experience. None of this conflicts with my statement that during the declining years the majority of individuals do not learn any new major lessons from life. Most crystallize (as Djwahl Khul expresses it) around the age of 53. Chris Have you ever experienced carrying on a conversation by telepathy with a 3 month old foetus in utero .. and watching the response of the foetus on an ultrasound .. I have .. and I have watched a foetus respond to its brother and sister .... and I have seen a foetus move away from a needle inserted in the womb ... and you want to say that a foetus does not have consciousness? JJ This does not conflict with anything I have written. Full self consciousness is not needed for such response. There is consciousness of some type in every form. "Words are things and a small drop of ink, falling like dew upon a thought - produces that which makes thousands, perhaps millions think." Byron Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15430 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion .. 2 Christopher Wynter wrote: "Then how do you explain that a child can know mother is pregnant even before the mother does ... and that the child can communicate with the foetus .... and that as the children grow up, both children have a full memory of this communication ...." Did they 'always' have this full memory of this communication or was it recovered by hypnosis? Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15431 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT) Ultrasound From Dr.J. R. Christopher's book: Every Woman's Herbal. "More subtle, but potentially more dangerous, is the routine application of ultrasound in normal pregnancies. Although most medical practitioners assure us that ultrasound presents no dangers, this procedure, which is used to study the body's internal organs with non-ionizing waves, has been the subject of research indicating some considerable risks. Although supposedly said to work with sound waves, they are not in the audible range, so their high frequency is not natural to the body. Dr. Mendelsohn wrote, "Ultrasound produces at least two biological effects--heat and a process called 'cavitation' in which bubbles are created that expand and contract in response to sound waves. The first time I saw this cavitation process in action, a chiropractor turned on the therapeutic ultrasound machine in his office and placed a few drops of water on the part of the machine that was applied to the patient. I wish every reader...could have been with me to watch that water suddenly boil and bubble" (The People's Doctor, Vol.7, No. 11, p. 3). After ferreting out the truth about ultrasound over the years, Dr. Mendelsohn received copies of documents researching the procedure, which anyone may receive by writing WHO Publications Center, 49 Sheridan Ave., Albany, NY 12210, asking for "Environmental Health Criteria 22: Ultrasound." Experiments cited in these documents indicated reduced fetal weight and reduced fetal organ weight in animals who received ultrasound. Researchers are noticing a small but definite reduction in newborn birth rate among human infants exposed to ultrasound. The immune systems of laboratory animals exposed to the procedure are said to be affected. It also affects the blood platelets which allow the blood to clot. This could lead to problems with circulation because of traveling blood clots. Changes in the structure and composition of cells, including genetic material, has been suspected. In experiments with animals, these changes have resulted in defective embryos with a variety of problems. Researchers postulate that problems incurred by ultrasound could take as long as 20 years to surface, including the possibility of cancer and, most commonly suspected, leukemia. The mother might also experience congenital malformations. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15432 From: Mark D Williams Subject: JJ's Songs I would like to thank Rick for giving me some credit for JJ's songs, but JJ actually wrote the melody and lyrics. I created MIDI background arrangements of the songs that I hope to get recorded and back to JJ before the Gathering. And yes, unfortunately I will not be able to make it that weekend, so will be with you in spirit... Mark Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15433 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Pre-Natal Consciousness JJ wrote: Sounds like I pushed some buttons here. I do not need any authority to say anything I want. I can just type on this little keyboard to my hearts content. The reader can use the authority of the soul to discover the truth or error of anything I say. John writes: You certainly did my friend! Interesting reading this morning. I just got a chance to post. Over twenty two years ago I was searching for the same answers that many on this list are searching for now. Who, or What Am I. What is my Purpose in Life, and a thousand other questions that haunt every Mystic on the path. I'm a poor excuse for a lot of things, but I am persistent by nature. Some would say I was just to stupid to give up. LOL They may be right, if the truth were really known. LOL Twenty two years ago I was in deep meditation. I didn't really know how from learning it anywhere, I just knew, but I didn't know that I knew. LOL I regressed back to my birth and have vivid memories of my spirit or soul entering the body with the first breath. This was my first confirmation of this occurrence. In the days afterward I would go back even further and find myself on what the Tibetans call the High Bardo Planes. At that point I snapped back to regular consciousness and wrote what you will find below. At that point in my Life I had never felt anything so powerful in a strange sort of way. A poet I am not, there is no debate, but today in the service group this poem now has great meaning for me and may be a signpost and confirmation to others. I see it as having been Prophetic, although and that time, I didn't have a clue what it meant. Years later I would be accepted and initiated into the Rosicrucian Illuminati. It was something I never in my wildest dreams had thought would happen, and I tried to convince them they had made a serious mistake in identity. Of all the good people in the world I knew, I was the most undeserving of such an honor, and just knew any minute I would be contacted telling me it was a mistake. The strange thing is that years later I would find something else I couldn't explain, and could have a multitude of logical explanations. While studying the writings of the Illuminati I found some of them hit me like a lightning bolt. The wording and rhythm of the writing was so similar to the Origin, or Code of Many Colors that I've pasted below. Many thoughts went through my mind. Could I have been the actual author of these in times past, or did I just contact this entity on a Higher Plane. There are a dozen explanations that I can think of, and you can probably think of more. It really isn't important at this point. The important point is that it was given and received. I took it to the local University some years ago for a writing analysis in comparison to some of the Illuminati writings which I have posted here before and there was a match in excess of 92%. One thing I know for sure is that I can remember entering the body with the first breath and I felt like I was being electrocuted. It was very painful to say the least. I can actually remember seeing the hospital and hospital room before entry. In fact I can clearly remember some things prior to that proves to me that I had full knowledge of what I was to do, and the plan that lay ahead. Later the Code was stolen, and copy righted, but changed a great deal from the original. I hope it will be of assistance to some of you. I have no doubt of the source, yet each of you will have to pass it by your own soul for confirmation or denial. The Original A Code of Many Colors Prologue The origin lies far beyond the realm of reason: even beyond what we so commonly define as memory. Yet it exists in times long since past where the chapters were written; where the foundations were lain for the future. Chapter by chapter unfolds until one cold autumn night in a mid-western town, a child waits to be born, or so it would be commonly looked upon in this way. Yet somewhere beyond this world a soul waits to inhabit the child to be born; a new sanctuary, a new temple to serve it's expression of life. This child will be born into an exact set of circumstances that will exactly serve every purpose this discarnate soul must experience. This Soul remembers and reviews it's past. Things done wrong; things done right; memories rush through its mind of past hate, enemies, love, friends, joys, pain, loses and gains. It thinks of things so foolish in the past, and yet knows that this life to come has to blot out many things past. Old views, morals and beliefs will give birth to new concepts. This soul has learned the folly of transient things. Great wealth holds no lure. Wealth will be left to others upon death; to be a tool of their greed and folly. This soul seeks expansion; physically, morally, intellectually, and spiritually. This soul seeks strong and deep emotional involvement's, feeling its own need for reconciliation to the human race. The past has left its scars of doubt, hatred and distrust towards people. It has been ordained that this soul must in this life time become a master of human relations, human doctrines, beliefs and lore's of all walks of life, knowing even before its conception that fame, fortune, and prestige will may never be acquired; leaving only study, searching, and experience ahead, and yet it seeks no more. The whole keynote of this soul's existence lies in one phrase, "Pure Will", it must author its own destiny. And the time now, a time in one sense to end, in another to begin, a child is born. The Poem *** Believe in me, believe in you Dare not doubt the past is true *** Through the tunnel of time each life does pass Until the best is left for last *** Things done wrong, things done right Fear not to seek that which lies beyond sight *** Damned are those that don't Damned are those that do Until is found the portal to pass through *** Seek out the Trinities, there to be found The secrets of Nature, beginning to end and all that lies as an Abby there within *** Lift the veil from your eyes look to the mirror of your mind and seek the mystery of the Divine! (c) John Wayne Kline 1978 Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15434 From: "Geoffrey Ellis" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Abortion JJ wrote "I was glad to see Marylin comment on her attempt to see auras. I think we have only had a couple comments so far. Either most of the group did not try the exercise or you tried it and were unimpressed. If any others tried the exercises and I would be interested in your comments, especially if you were successful." I attempted to see the aura of my son against a white background as suggested but I could not see any colours. My son tried this on me and immediately saw my aura and after I moved to see the after effect, he could see my inner colourings and also my bone structure. He is fifteen and has always seen auras. Maybe we should swap places on this list,lol. Geoffrey Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15435 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: [JJ Dewey] Thoughts on Abortion .. 2 - Diane Diane .. The children that I am referring to here were taken at random from several groups of school children whom I had never met before.. Different groups had different age ranges .... The discussion took place in an open forum ... No hypnosis or mesmerism or any other form of mind awareness or alteration took place The same has been reported to me by teachers and social workers independent of any work I am doing .. from children who "blurted it out" Christopher Wynter you wrote: "Did they 'always' have this full memory of this communication or was it recovered by hypnosis? Diane" Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15436 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: (OT) Ultrasound Diane .. I find total agreement with what is written here ... and, again, the memory of the ultrasound is stored in the body . and can be recovered ... at any time by anyone who knows what they are looking for and how to access those memories. Christopher Wynter you wrote: "From Dr.J. R. Christopher's book: Every Woman's Herbal." Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15437 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [JJ Dewey] Pre-Natal Consciousness you wrote: "I do not need any authority to say anything I want. I can just type on this little keyboard to my hearts content. The reader can use the authority of the soul to discover the truth or error of anything I say." Yes JJ, you pushed some buttons by making blanket statements by not taking into account the consequences of your words .. or the position you are placed in by members of this list who see you as a disseminator of teachings .. which they hold to be truth and an answer to their life searching for answers Chris: "On not one occasion in this post do you take into account the effect of a pregnancy termination on the lives of the children who ARE affected ..." JJ "There are lots of things I do not have time to mention. That's one of the reasons that we have members posting to the list. They write many interesting truths that I do not mention." The question I asked is relevant given the number of children who are affected by this. Within a blanket statement such as you make, I feel that, if you claim to be a teacher, you should take these factors into account ... especially seeing some statistics show around 10% of the population are affected. (surveys carried out in Australia .. 1998) I'm sure I could find relevant figures for US .... "I stated that in most cases there are negative effects from abortion. You could have a point with births following the abortion, but I think the problem can be easily overridden by a mothers love and acceptance." Don't think on this JJ ... Mother's love and acceptance does not override the absolute knowing that mother has the power of life and death over a sibling .. and in the perception of the child, mother has killed a sibling. The surviving children know if there was anything wrong with the child that was terminated .. and the only successful explanations I have seen .. is where the living siblings were exposed to the whole medical process .. and took part in the discussion as to whether the foetus should be terminated or not. If you saw your mother kill your brother or sister, in utero .. how much of your so called motherly love could you accept ... Chris "Then how do you explain that a child can know mother is pregnant even before the mother does ... and that the child can communicate with the foetus .... and that as the children grow up, both children have a full memory of this communication ...." JJ "I have taken people back to the womb and even back to the moment of conception and believe me the intelligence and awareness is not as sparkling as you present. Memories and impressions are recorded from the time of conception, but full awareness is not there." Have you been open enough to allow these people to express fully their rememberings without any fear of censorship .. for coming up with something that most consider flies in the face of both psychological possibility and religious belief ... If you were here in Tasmania at this moment, I could arrange for you to meet quite a number of people who would tell you some stories .... Just because it was not possible for you at the time, do not deny that another can have experiences with regression which differ from yours .. I did not use standard practices of regression therapy to obtain my results ... and I also accept that many other therapists may obtain results that differ from mine .. or yours .. and so the evolution of consciousness moves beyond the categorical statements written in the tombs of old scriptural and medical texts To deny this possibility is to deny the evolution of mankind... and my eyes are opened daily in joy and what I learn .. about myself and human consciousness. "The soul is loosely linked to the body and any really intelligent communication would come from that source, but that would not be the norm unless a person is very sensitive to the soul. All one has to do to realize that the soul gradually takes command of the body is to look back on your own life. Most of us have no memories of before the age of four because there is no self awareness. Our consciousness goes through, for about four years, one similar to the animal kingdom where individualization has not taken place." Ok ... tell that to a two year old who has full conscious recall (and the speech capability to express it ... only because he's never been told he couldn't possibly) I can introduce you to many people who have self awareness before the age of four .. and if you are prepared to hear me without going off into your spiritual preconceptions, I can tell you why this memory block happens .. and it's got nothing to do with the soul ...! "I can remember my consciousness from the ages of 4-8 and I know from memory that my soul was more firmly anchored at 8 than it was at 4." I can remember my consciousness from the moment of conception .. and have full recall of the whole of my life from that point on .. but only because I allowed that possibility existed beyond what I was told to believe! "I have taken many people back to the early ages up to the time of birth and it is obvious from their accounts that their self consciousness was not firmly anchored at that time, even though full memory is recorded from the time of conception." If you haven't done it for yourself, then it is not possible for you to allow that possibility within another. I accept that this is your experience .. and I am offering you another experience which you might care to either explore .. or allow the possibility of. "There is also quite a difference in the consciousness in the womb and the consciousness shortly after birth. To discover this you have observe more than memory and instinctive response." How do you define this consciousness ... and how do you define the difference .. but, be aware there are other factors here which come into play that have nothing to do with the soul... and one is the projection from the mother .. and everyone present at the birth ... mental thoughts, projections, expectations have barbs on them ... and do more to influence the newborn than anything else. Chris "The greatest lesson learned is at the end of old age .. at the point just before death, when the soul realizes that, as it looks back over the past life, it has not learned and made real the purpose of its incarnation ... and has to come back into the body and do it all again ..... for the simple reason it knows that, without the brain, thought cannot be created to clear the layers of the soul from self judgment." JJ "If what you say is true then people who die violent and quick deaths would be denied this opportunity." Yes .. this is correct ... "Now there is truth to the statement of a person's life flashing before his eyes near the point of death, especially as an unexpected accident seems eminent." Yes .. from my experience this is also correct "It is shortly after death, however that the person goes through a review of his life and then takes with him the memories of the three most important lessons learned. This knowledge would not be garnered from a near death experience." Would you like to tell a number of people here that what they have experienced is impossible .. and therefore, without personal experience (which I have had) deny them the truth of there own experience .,. The memory is whole of life .. not just the three most important lessons learned "None of this conflicts with my statement that during the declining years the majority of individuals do not learn any new major lessons from life. Most crystallize (as Djwahl Khul expresses it) around the age of 53." Then I would suggest that you spend some time working with the elderly in a nursing home ... and being open enough to allow them to tell you their story without projecting your expectations on them ... (and your are going to have to abandon your preconceptions .. and what spiritual books have written) in order to hear them... The truth is not written in books because most people who write books are looking for a socially acceptable explanation for their own psychosis and those who have nothing to prove could not be bothered writing books ... and yes, I am aware of making a blanket statement here .. so I will qualify the statement by adding the words "spiritual, psychology, religious, philosophy and new age" in front of the word "books" Chris "Have you ever experienced carrying on a conversation by telepathy with a month old foetus in utero .. and watching the response of the foetus on an ultrasound .. I have .. and I have watched a foetus respond to its brother and sister .... and I have seen a foetus move away from a needle inserted in the womb ... and you want to say that a foetus does not have consciousness?" JJ "This does not conflict with anything I have written. Full self consciousness is not needed for such response. There is consciousness of some type in every form." Please define your understanding of self consciousness ... before I debate the manner of the conflict and deception I see in your statement. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15438 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Ignorance The young disciple was such a prodigy that scholars from everywhere sought his advice and marveled at his learning. When the governor was looking for an adviser, he came to the Master and said, "Tell me, is it true that the young man knows as much as they say he does?" "Truth to tell," said the Master wryly, "the fellow reads so much I don't see how he could ever find the time to know anything." Anthony de Mello, SJ Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15439 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: (OT) Ultrasound It worries me that I've had ultrasound done on me by chiropractors and physical therapists. This information about ultrasound that I received today puts a whole new light on the practice. Diane Christopher Wynter wrote: "and, again, the memory of the ultrasound is stored in the body .. and can be recovered ... at any time by anyone who knows what they are looking for and how to access those memories." Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15440 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: (OT) Ultrasound Diane .. from my experience, and my experience only here ... Worry on your part can do more damage that the affects of the ultrasound. You have not said how old the children are .. and (again from my perspective) countering the effects depends on the age of the children involved ... but there are ways in which the resilience of the child can overcome any of these affects .. If you can let me know what your concerns are, the ages of the children, and the effects you perceive are, I can offer what I have found may (only again from my experience .. may) assist .... I do understand your concern ... but there is the possibility of balance to be found here ... I also feel that there is room to move in the term "excessive use" .. and, again, would need to know more details about frequency and reasons for the ultrasound testing .... It's OK to follow this up off list if you prefer .... Christopher Wynter Disclaimer ... In no account should anything I say be taken as medical or professional advice .. it is only a sharing of my experience within this work .. and is offered as a possibility for consideration. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15441 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: (OT) Ultrasound No children involved Chris; Just me and my injuries. I don't think just the unborn can be harmed by this practice. Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15442 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: (OT) Ultrasound Ok Diane ... this may sound crazy to some ... but you might care to experience going out into a park somewhere, finding the biggest and oldest tree that you can .. and surrendering your whole body to the tree ... by hugging it ... and asking it to share its energy with you ... spend some time with this tree .. as it gets to know you .. and you it ... and there will be a balancing of energies .. oh .. and as you leave the tree each time, you might thank the tree for what it has shared with you .... they are beautiful beings with a consciousness of their own. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15443 From: (Jean) Subject: RE: re: Pre-Natal Consciousness that was a wonderful poem! There is much truth in that my friend, and that is from my soul. Its funny, all of you think on this poem and think on the very essence of life, all our answers are within, so simple yet we make it so hard.....' Kind of reminds me of a saying from the bible, "knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find....ask and you shall receive, so simple....the answers are there. Thank you John for sharing that with us, I think many will be doing much thinking on the that one. :) My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15444 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Re: Pre-Natal Consciousness Well thought, well said, well done, JWK! Love Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15445 From: DeHara Subject: FYI - Afterimage color test Wanna have some more fun seeing? Check out flag afterimage color test. Designed to prove that afterimage colors are the opposite color of the object's physical colors. go to : http://www.geocities.com/trbrennanjr/#blank%20screen or "http://www.geocities.com/trbrennanjr/#blank%20screen"> Click here: flag afterimage color test. JoyFull Visions, Dehara Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15446 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Auras Hi JJ, I did the test also and could see very well the aura around my fingers and arm. Today I tried to see over my head by use of a mirror and again I could see a very white aura almost blue white. When I closed my eyes the afterimage was very bright as well. It almost looked like a shadow. I haven't tried seeing it on another person yet. Mostly because I have a hard time getting the girls to sit still:) Love Deb Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15447 From: Glenys Subject: OT- DEB How did the job interview go, Deb? Or is it still to come? Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Being harmless means being so strong, so empowered, that the idea of showing power through harm is not even a part of your consciousness. - author unknown Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15448 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Re: OT- DEB Glenys, I have to make up a resume (which i have a good start on) and fax it to the human resources dept. at the company. I am glad I waited because today My old supervisor came back to the co.I work for now and gave me permission to use her as a reference. So to have a current employer on there for a reference will look better than what I would have been able to send. I will let you know when I do know more :) Thanks, Love Deb Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15449 From: Maryellen Subject: Re: OT- DEB Glenys writes: "Being harmless means being so strong, so empowered, that the idea of showing power through harm is not even a part of your consciousness." Thank you Glenys, I love this quote. In Light, Maryellen Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15450 From: Brian Weis Subject: (OT) Tree Huggers Doesn't sound crazy to me. In fact, it sounds very similar to the practices I learned while in Peru for my Hatun Karpay (initiation). ~B. List Archive keys-l: /2000-20/15451 From: Brian Weis Subject: (OT) Tree Huggers Christopher Wynter writes: "this may sound crazy to some ..." Editor's Note: No reply given Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15452 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Abortion JJ: There are two accounts in the Bible that I know of that have some application to abortion. The first is in Exodus 21:22-23: LK: Here I choose the Young's Literal Translation: Exodus 21:22-25 (English-YLT) 'And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges; and if there is mischief, then thou hast given life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. A man strikes a pregnant women and the child is born prematurely ("children have come out")? If "there is no mischief", i.e., possibly meaning if the baby survives) then the penalty is "as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him", but "life for a life" seems to apply, doesn't it? Even the KJV might be construed similarly: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Given how incredibly seriously these people took having children, I can't conceive that they wouldn't consider the death of a child due to premature birth not to be a "mischief". Why is that not a likely interpretation? Anybody know a rabbi we can ask? :) lk i loved the poem and the Code of many colors.. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15453 From: J J Dewey Subject: Divorce Interesting slant on the abortion scripture Lawrence. The way the scripture is worded the mischief (hurt unto death) could apply to either the mother or the unborn child. The scripture does tell us though that the mother definitely suffered hurt. Actually this circumstance does not correspond very closely to abortion as it is today for even the most liberal abortion advocates would want to prosecute one who would strike a pregnant woman so she would lose her child. By the way, many of the Bibles today that claim to be an accurate or close to literal translation are far from such. In your quote, for instance, the word "husband" is used and neither the word husband or wife occurs anywhere in the Old Testament. The word "husband" here comes from the Hebrew BA'AL which literally means "Master" or "Possessor." Few Bibles translate this the way the Hebrews used it for fear of offending the flock. But among the Hebrews the man was the Master of his household. Let me repeat for the new ones that I believe the most correct translation to be the Concordant Bible. A link to ordering it can be found in the free books section of my web site. We have the same problem in our society with divorce as we do with abortion. The masses gather on the extreme views on one side or the other instead of looking at both sides in the circumstance and making an informed decision. It is interesting that many who are anti divorce no matter what will use the following scripture as justification for their view: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commiteth adultery". (Matt. 5:32) Here we have a scripture that has been greatly misunderstood and has caused much trouble in the world. Many religions have forbidden divorce because of these words of Jesus. Notice that Jesus said that the only justifiable cause of divorce is "fornication". The prevalent belief among Christians is that fornication is sex between two unmarried persons or between two married people not married to each other. But here Jesus uses fornication as an act between married couples. Therefore, the meaning intended by Jesus is not the one attributed to the word by people of today. Actually, fornication may not even involve sex, for in the context it is used throughout the Bible, it means "to be alienated from" or "to remove one's heart from". Thus, if the wife's heart is alienated from her husband, he may justifiably divorce her. God often called Israel his wife and when she committed fornication against Him and removed her heart from the true God and worshipped idols, she committed fornication against Him and He gave Israel, his wife, a bill of divorcement. Thus, it is with people. If their energies are not correctly matched and balanced, they commit fornication and become alienated and should get a divorce. On the other hand, if the wife's heart is with her husband and the husband divorces a wife who is committed to him, he "causeth her to commit adultery". In other words, he causes her heart to forcibly seek someone else who may be at a wrong point of evolution. "And whosoever shall marry her that is divorced (wrongfully divorced) commiteth adultery". If a man marries a woman whose heart is still with her original husband, there is produced an imbalance of energy and this is what true adultery and fornication are. Thus we see that the words of Jesus that have been used to cause much pain in prolonging relationships that should have never been - actually point toward the common sense that humanity has adopted in modern times. On the other hand when one divorces frivolously, on a whim, or because of betrayal with another person definite harm can come. It is generally recognized that a committed couple, especially with children should do everything in their power to rekindle their love and live together in peace. My parents divorced when I was twelve. This was a painful experience for us all but a necessary one. I'm sure my sweet mother would have been long dead by now if she would have stayed with my dad - for life would have been very difficult for her. As it was she quit smoking and drinking, got a job, became self sufficient and has helped and inspired many people. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-15/15454 From: "susan carter" Subject: Re: RE: Pre-Natal Consciousness John Thank You for sharing yourself. I feel the same way about our choosing to be reborn. I was wondering if you could explain the following: "Years later I would be accepted and initiated into the Rosicrucian Illuminati. It was something I never in my wildest dreams had thought would happen, and I tried to convince them they had made a serious mistake in identity. Of all the good people in the world I knew, I was the most undeserving of such an honor, and just knew any minute I would be contacted telling me it was a mistake." Exactly what is the Illumunati you speak of? Susan Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15455 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Ignorance Christopher Wynter writes: "Truth to tell," said the Master wryly, "the fellow reads so much I don't see how he could ever find the time to know anything." ROFL.....I live with a young man like that. He thinks all intelligence comes from books. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15456 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Pre-Natal Consciousness J J writes: "Chris, Have you ever experienced carrying on a conversation by telepathy with a 3 month old foetus in utero .. and watching the response of the foetus on an ultrasound .. I have .. and I have watched a foetus respond to its brother and sister .... and I have seen a foetus move away from a needle inserted in the womb ... and you want to say that a foetus does not have consciousness? This is a very, very interesting conversation and I have a recent happening to add to it, if JJ and Chris don't mind. In middle April, my youngest daughter and family came to visit with us. She is pregnant after two surgeries, fertility drugs and they finally had an appointment for in-vitro. Just before the appointment, their names came up on the adoption list and they adopted a beautiful 5 year old little girl, now my prized granddaughter. Last fall she discovered that she was pregnant. When they got to our house in April, I ran out to hug her. There was a difference about her that she had never had before......I felt a definite influx of love the closer I got to her and it caused me to break into tears, it was so strong. I also felt the impression that it came from my new grandchild. This remained all the time they were here and my daughter's attitudes and outlook on life are completely different from 10 years ago. She was speaking with wisdom and love all the time. And another thing......she has had no pain from the rheumatoid arthritis in her hands that she has had for the last four or five years and the lupus hasn't given her any trouble. Soooooooooooooo, know what I think? I think my new grandbaby is "An Indigo Child". And I love that baby dearly. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15457 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Ignorance Ah Marylin, At least he doesn't already think he knows it all and that there *is* room for learning. ;) Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15458 From: Margaret Leach Subject: Re: Divorce JJ - I personally agree wholeheartedly with your basic views concerning marriage and divorce. Since I come from a family of Christian-far-righters, the topics of marriage, divorce, abortion, etc. are ones I avoid discussing with them. I would love to be able to point to scriptures to support my beliefs but have been unable to, so far. And I don't "get" the scriptural interpretations you have used. Please know my questions are not because I am having trouble with the end-result views, but simply for my further edification. My questions are below: J J Dewey wrote: "But here Jesus uses fornication as an act between married couples." What points to this interpretation of how Jesus is using the term? "Actually, fornication may not even involve sex, for in the context it is used throughout the Bible, it means "to be alienated from" or "to remove one's heart from"." When I looked up "fornication" in Strong's Concordance, it points to the Greek word porneia which means "harlotry (including adultery and incest) and figuratively idolatry. It comes from the Greek word porneuo which means "to act the harlot, i.e. (lit.) *indulge* unlawful *lust* (of either sex), or figuratively, practice idolatry. This second Greek word, porneuo, is from the greek word porne which means a strumpet, harlot, whore and figuratively an idolater. So it would seem that the word allegedly used by Jesus is referring to a woman practicing harlotry -- ie practicing sex for pay. Again, please note, I much prefer your broader interpretation [and certainly don't need ANY scriptures to substantiate how I feel], however, this particular scripture reference looks to me to be narrower in context. Am I missing something here? Of course, we won't go into the whole thing about a man being able to "put away his wife" but the wife cannot 'put away her husband'. But then we all know that a man was not held liable for adultery while a woman could be stoned to death. It always amazes me how these little details escape the attention of my Christian-far-right family!! Love and Light to All, Margaret Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15459 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Pre-Natal Consciousness Susan wrote: "John Thank You for sharing yourself. I feel the same way about our choosing to be reborn. I was wondering if you could explain the following: *Years later I would be accepted and initiated into the Rosicrucian Illuminati. It was something I never in my wildest dreams had thought would happen, and I tried to convince them they had made a serious mistake in identity. Of all the good people in the world I knew, I was the most undeserving of such an honor, and just knew any minute I would be contacted telling me it was a mistake.* "Exactly what is the Illumunati you speak of?" John: Susan thank you for your kind words. I received an email from a close friend on the list yesterday. She told me that she had some friends that follow a certain movement, and she had been told the Illuminati was the vilest of all creatures. Sadly Susan there is a certain amount of truth to that. Let me explain. The Illuminati have been veiled in History. I could name hundreds of men who were members such as Dante, Herder, Goethe, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson only to name a few. The name was assigned to the Order because its members were said to be enlightened , or illumined, having peculiar discernment of the Cosmic Divine Principles. According to the true history, known to the mystery or Hermetic schools, it was mainly composed of Rosicrucians; but it also numbered in its membership those affiliated with other humanitarian, esoteric, and spiritual Orders. Hundreds of years ago another group came into being as an affiliate of the Rosicrucians. This was Masonry. In the beginning this group did great work in their local areas and played a great part in American Revolution. It was the Masons that left their lodge disguised as Indians and carried out the Boston Tea Party. Many of the names of the Revolutionary war were Masons, Rosicrucians, or both. Sadly through the corrupting hand of time, Masonry became more, and more involved in business, and politics, in other words power, and control motivated. Regretfully those that did the greatest work for mankind, and were the greatest servants, were passed over, while Generals and Senators were given the highest honors. The Masons too, have what they call the Illuminati but the requirements for Initiation are not the understanding of Higher Principles, or Enlightenment. They are the understanding of Power and Control. Today true Rosicrucianism and Masonry find themselves at opposite poles of the magnet in modern times. Their goals and objectives couldn't be farther apart. At the same time I must say that many Masons of the small local lodges still carry on positive work to the best of their ability and should be given credit for that. The Higher Arms of the Order are where the corruption is to be found on a World Wide Level and they call themselves Illuminati also. Of this group, I have nothing whatsoever to do. One group works toward the betterment and liberation of mankind, the other toward the control, and enslavement of mankind. Sadly the two groups are often confused, which was their primary objective in the first place. I know this isn't much, but I hope it helps. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15460 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Divorce JJ: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commiteth adultery". (Matt. 5:32) Here we have a scripture that has been greatly misunderstood and has caused much trouble in the world. Many religions have forbidden divorce because of these words of Jesus. Notice that Jesus said that the only justifiable cause of divorce is "fornication". The prevalent belief among Christians is that fornications sex between two unmarried persons or between two married people not married to each other. LK: The Greek word used for fornication above is "porneia", for which I would guess the word "pornography" is derived. The definition I find for that is "illicit sexual intercourse", as for example: 1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc 2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, This I got from looking up Matthew 5:32 at the Interlinear Bible available on the net: http://www.biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible/ I don't (yet) have a strong's Concordance though. While I am sympathetic to your views on divorce, I don't see how you arrive at your expanded definition of "fornication" used in the Bible as meaning "to be alienated from" or "to remove one's heart from". Again, while I am sympathetic to many of your views, I don't always follow your claims as to Biblical interpretation (although many of them, particularly the ones in the archives re Revelation I find fascinating). But I don't always see how you get from A to B. :) love, light lk One God there is. In no way like mortal creatures either in bodily form or in the thought of his mind. The whole of him sees, the whole of him thinks, the whole of him hears. He stays always motionless in the same place; it is not fitting that he should move about now this way, now that. But, effortlessly, he wields all things by the thought of his mind. Xenophanes of Colophon Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15461 From: Brian Weis Subject: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") Lawrence Kennon writes: "The definition I find for that is "illicit sexual intercourse", as for example: 1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc" OK, we're all still waiting to come to agreement on the definition of fornication so I will not make comment on it at the moment. But I do want to comment on the examples of illicit sexual intercourse. Now, I'll give you adultery and intercourse with animals (yikes!) as excellent examples of illicit (and in the second case just downright crazy) sexual activities. But why are homosexuality and lesbianism lumped in the same category? ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15462 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") B~: why are homosexuality and lesbianism lumped in the same category? LK: Well, probably because that was the specific definition that was used from the Interlinear Bible tool I referenced at: http://www.biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible No matter what our modern perspectives, I don't think it is contestable that the writers of the Bible soundly condemned any form of sexual activity except that between a man and wife in the bounds of matrimony. What does Jesus think of homosexuality? I don't claim to know. My thoughts are that we go from one extreme to another. When I was born it was generally considered proper behavior to treat homosexuals very harshly. Today we however seem to have went to another extreme of it being taught (as in "how to") in the public schools. Personally it would be dishonest for me to say that I am comfortable around homosexuals. But I am a lot less condemning, and uncomfortable than I would have been some time ago. Look at that as progress. :) love, light, lk "Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801 Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15463 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Ignorance Diane Linen writes: "At least he doesn't already think he knows it all and that there *is* room for learning." I live in a real zoo. LOL The youngest one has told me more than once that HE knows everything. Ah, well, maybe he does and maybe he doesn't. The first is quite sure that he already knows all he needs to know. That was said to me also. There's a positive element in living here, though. It's NEVER dull. LOL Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15464 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: [ OT ] Re: Ignorance Marylin: The youngest one has told me more than once that HE knows everything. [!!!] Lk: I work in technical support (over the phone), and have several .WAV (recorded sound) files I occasionally play for my customers. One goes, "GOD! I hate knowing EVERYTHING!". But then there are the days I play the Three Stooges saying, "I tried to think, but nothing happened!". In especially critical situations I like to play this just audibly in the background; "Oh no!!! I pressed the wrong button again!". ROTFLOLAF (Rolling on the floor laughing out loud and farting) :) lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15465 From: Glenys Subject: Re: Divorce J J Dewey wrote: "It is interesting that many who are anti divorce no matter what will use the following scripture as justification for their view: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery". (Matt. 5:32)" Just as an adjunct to this, the Lamsa translation of this scripture reads differently: 'But I say unto you that whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is separated but not divorced, commits adultery.' So according to this translation, a woman has permission to remarry providing she is divorced and not just separated. This was actually to protect women because of the trend for husbands to just dump them when they'd had enough of them. Jesus was a great champion of women's rights in an environment that was quite hostile to women. One only has to read the Gospel of Mary (Magdalene) to see how much trouble she had exercising the mantle of leadership bestowed on her by Jesus. Peter, in particular, was a great thorn in her flesh. But I digress........ Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Being harmless means being so strong, so empowered, that the idea of showing power through harm is not even a part of your consciousness. - author unknown Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15466 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Re: Divorce Glenys, I would very much like to read The gospel of Mary. Is it available on the internet? If so do you have a link? Thanks, Love Deb Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15467 From: Glenys Subject: OT - Deb - Gospel of Mary Hi Deb, I'm sure I've got a link somewhere. I'll dig it out later as I'm off to a meeting right now. In the meantime here's something to whet your appetite. Peter and Andrew sound just like the guys my brothers like to hang out with - men's men, great to go to a rugby game and have a beer with but not a lot of grey matter :-)) It's really encouraging for ordinary folk to see what flawed specimens God can work with to bring about positive change in the world. More later...... Love Glenys THE GOSPEL OF MARY INTRODUCTION: From the Nag Hammadi Library, James M. Robinson. In this gospel Christ teaches that sin is not a problem of moral ignorance so much as a manifestation of imbalance of the soul. Christ then encourages the disciples to spread his teachings and warns them against those who teach of spirituality as an external concept rather than as an internal, Gnostic experience. Mary, to whom this text is credited, then lifts the hearts of the disciples who have become despondent over Christ's departure. Peter and the other disciples acknowledge Mary's spiritual calibre and superiority and yet they challenge her when she describes her own gnostic experiences. This confrontation between Mary and Peter is well documented in many Gnostic Scriptures. Mary exposes the small mindedness and superficiality of Peter and Andrew who find it difficult to comprehend, let alone accept, the deeper spiritual understanding that Mary has acquired through her personal experience and closer relationship with Christ. Indeed Peter and Andrew seem to prefer the very thing against which Christ warned them - a religion based on arbitrary ideas (in this case represented by Peter's male chauvinism and Andrew's ignorance). And yet many of their ideas have shaped modern Christianity while, paradoxically, Mary Magdelene's spirituality, which here seems more consistent with the teachings of Christ, is unheard of today. GOSPEL OF MARY: "Will matter then be [destroyed] or not?". The Saviour said, "All natures, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved into their own roots. For the nature of the matter is resolved into the (roots) of its nature alone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Peter said to Him, "Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?" The Saviour said, "There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called 'sin'. That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature, in order to restore it to its root." Then He continued and said, "That is why you [become sick] and die, for [?] of the one who [? He who] understands, let him understand. Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from (something) contrary to nature. Then there arise a disturbance in the whole body. That is why I said to you, 'Be of good courage', and if you are discouraged (be) encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When the blessed one had said this, He greeted them all, saying, "Peace be with you. Receive my peace to yourselves. Beware that no one lead you astray, saying, 'Lo here!' or 'Lo there!' for the Son of Man is within you. Follow after Him! Those who seek Him will find Him. Go then and preach the gospel of the kingdom. Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed for you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it." When He said this, He departed. But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, "How shall we go to the gentiles and preach the gospel of the kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare him, how will they spare us?" Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, "Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you. But rather let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into men." When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the [Saviour]. Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Saviour loved you more than the rest of women. Tell us the words of the Saviour which you remember - which you know (but) we do not, nor have we heard them." Mary answered and said, "What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you." And she began to speak to them these words: "I," she said, "I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to him, 'Lord, I saw you today in a vision.' He answered and said to me, 'Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of me. For where the mind is, there is the treasure.' I said to him, 'Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it through the soul or through the spirit?' The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision and it is [?].' (the mid-section of the original text is missing) "[?] it. And desire that, 'I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie, since you belong to me?' The soul answered and said, 'I saw you. You did not see me nor recognise me. I served you as a garment, and you did not know me.' When it had said this, it went away rejoicing greatly. "Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance. It (the power) questioned the soul saying, 'Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge!' And the soul said, 'Why do you judge me although I have not judged? I was bound though I have not bound. I was not recognised. But I have recognised that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly (things) and the heavenly'. When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, (which) took seven forms. The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven [powers] of wrath. They ask the soul, "Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?" The soul answered and said, "What binds me has been slain, and what surrounds me has been overcome, and my desire has been ended and ignorance has died. In a [world] I was released from a world, [and] in a type from a heavenly type, and (from) the fetter of oblivion which is transient. From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence." When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Saviour had spoken with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, "Say what you (wish to) say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Saviour said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas." Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. He questioned them about the Saviour: "Did He really speak with a woman without our knowledge (and) not openly? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?" Then Mary wept and said to Peter, "My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Saviour? Levi answered and said to Peter, "Peter, you have always been hot - tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries. But if the Saviour made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect man and acquire him for ourselves as He commanded us, and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Saviour said." When [?] and they began to go forth [to] proclaim and to preach. The Nag Hammadi Library, James M. Robinson, Harper Collins -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15468 From: Glenys Subject: Re: OT - Deb - Gospel of Mary Hi Deb, I'm back and have found the link for you. There's not a lot to the Gospel as most of it has been lost. But what's there is still interesting: http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm There are also some other early gnostic writings that may be of interest. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15469 From: Glenys Subject: Re: RE: Pre-Natal Consciousness Hi John, I loved reading your poem and particularly liked this verse. Not that I think I'm anywhere near my last lifetime but I *do* intuitively know that each of my lifetimes gets better and better as I evolve. Pain is dealt with more quickly and joy and truth is more easily recognized and integrated so that each life becomes more and more exciting and satisfying on a conscious level. I was also interested in your Rosicrucian connection. I had a brief flirtation with the Order in my teens. I remember writing an essay on them when I was about 17 which went down a treat with my teacher - a staid old Catholic nun. I'm sure that was when she and her colleagues decided once and for all that I was a lost soul destined to burn in hell forever, even though I had been building up to it for years :-) Thanks for sharing. Love Glenys John Wayne Kline wrote: "Through the tunnel of time each life does pass Until the best is left for last" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15470 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") ~B, I hope I didn't offend you with my reply to the list. Sometimes I am too blunt. I consider my degree of tolerance today to be something of an achievement,, _considering_ the culture I which I was raised. :) best regards, Larry (lk) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15471 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") Oh, no. Not at all. There was nothing there that could offend me. I just wanted to know where the examples came from -- whether they were your own or if they were from the quoted source. I was curious, and you answered my question. I also appreciate your honesty as well as the fact that you restrained from claiming to know what Jesus felt about homosexuality. And I can certainly appreciate the progress you have made -- or the significant achievement, as you called it -- in your own perspective on this topic. : ) My wife and I have several friends who run the spectrum of human sexuality, and the gay/lesbian thing never even enters into the equation as far as we're concerned. Perhaps it has something to do with our age (we both in our early thirties), or maybe we just had fewer "negative" influences regarding our perceptions in this regard. You'll note I put negative in quotation marks to represent influences that would try to colour homosexuality in a negative vein -- not that the influences are to be considered negative in and of themselves. (Did that make any sense??) You were quite right when you said: "No matter what our modern perspectives, I don't think it is contestable that the writers of the Bible soundly condemned any form of sexual activity except that between a man and wife in the bounds of matrimony." But what exactly was the ancient perspective that condemned other activities such as hnt) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15472 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") CONT'D oooops! Hit that little "send" button (actually the extra "enter" key) while working on my missive. Here is the rest of it, starting with the part that got botched! Lawrence, You were quite right when you said: "No matter what our modern perspectives, I don't think it is contestable that the writers of the Bible soundly condemned any form of sexual activity except that between a man and wife in the bounds of matrimony." But what exactly was the ancient perspective that condemned other activities such as homosexuality? As someone on this list already said (and it might have been you, Lawrence, I just don't recall), ancient cultures held babies in very high regard. In fact, during the 40 years in the desert, the Hebrew people had to work to build a strong nation. Strength -- and safety -- is in numbers. So anything that did not promote the strength and growth of their population was condemned. Homosexual practices do not promote the conception of children (well, duh), children who would grow to become productive and possibly protective members of the nation, so these practices did not work to promote the strength of the wandering nation. I remember a joke in Mad magazine back in the 70s. Actually, it was more of a comic strip. In this strip, to male friends saw a gay couple walking arm in arm. The one observer, who was obviously bothered by it, remarked "You don't see that very often." His friend informed him that it was nothing new. In fact, "the Greeks were the first society to allow open homosexuality." The first friend pondered this for a moment and then replied, "I guess that's why you don't see many ancient Greeks around anymore." Hmmmmm....maybe homosexuality is kind of a built-in population control device for humanity? I don't know any answers either, Lawrence. ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15473 From: Glenys Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") Lawrence Kennon wrote: "~B, I hope I didn't offend you with my reply to the list. Sometimes I am too blunt. I consider my degree of tolerance today to be something of an achievement, _considering_ the culture in which I was raised. :)" You should try being in my Synthesis Group! I seem to have representatives of the full spectrum of possible expressions of human sexuality. I even had an enquiry from a guy called Bruce who had just had a sex change and was now a girl called Brenda. I actually hoped she'd join the group in order to enlighten some of the less tolerant members but she decided she wasn't quite ready. The differences can be a real challenge to many in the group which varies from ultra conservative to anything goes as long as no harm is caused and it doesn't matter who you love as long as you learn to love (that's me, considered by some in the group to be a raving liberal). JJ posted a very good explanation on the reasons why some people are homosexuals which miraculously seemed to satisfy everyone in my group and extinguished all intolerance. If you are interested and can't find it in the archives, let me know and I'll dig it out for you. I'd do it now but I'm off to yet another meeting :-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. - Albert Einstein Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15474 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") B~: I also appreciate your honesty as well as the fact that you restrained from claiming to know what Jesus felt about homosexuality. Lk: Well, I _don't_ know. _:) But whatever he does think, it must be tempered with much compassion. B~: But what exactly was the ancient perspective that condemned other activities such as hnt Lk: I am not 100% sure what the question was, but quite a few things got the death penalty in the Old Testament as I understand it. But one of the more important points that has been made on this list is that times change, and what is "good" in one age cannot necessarily be clung to as "good" in the next age. Those who simply point at something in the Old Testament and "rest their case" are arrested in the past. But progress means embracing the future. That was a hard lesson for me to learn. But learning it I try to embrace it. If there is one thing that has come into my life of late, it is hope, a great deal more love, and an abundance of joy. I have the little Christian "fish" symbol on my car, but it is pointing to the right, to the future! ~light ~love lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15475 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") Glenys: JJ posted a very good explanation on the reasons why some people are homosexuals which miraculously seemed to satisfy everyone in my group and extinguished all intolerance. Lk: I believe I have read it (and found it very interesting). But "tolerance" is not just one thing. There is intellectual tolerance -- the rational or spiritual conviction of a thing -- and also emotional tolerance which is how your emotions have been taught to react. Sometimes over a period of time the former can reform the latter, but one should not lie to oneself as to what one feels, or how one feels. Honesty has become a major goal for me. Now if I could just learn to temper it with judgment and restraint I would be in excellent shape! Glenys: I'm off to yet another meeting :-) Lk: Major bummer! Business meetings are the bane of civilized existence. I have tried to ban ties and meetings from my life, but with more success in the former than the latter. :) ~love lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15476 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Re: OT - Deb - Gospel of Mary Glenys, Thanks so much , the first part you sent is really interesting. And answers some questions that have been on my mind. Love always, Deb ps. Oh the resume is sent , now just have to wait for a call :) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15477 From: J J Dewey Subject: Idolarty In our group there are some who take the Bible quite seriously and others who take it with a grain of salt. Both sides will note that whenever possible I will quote from it to either establish truth or to illustrate that certain teachings are confirmed there. For those of you who see me as wasting time here I would encourage tolerance and an open mind While it is true that many teachings and laws in the Bible were for a people of an age long past there is also much wisdom expressed in its verses. The highlight of the Bible is of course the words of Jesus. The fact that the words of the Bible are a strong authority in the minds of many can be used for good or evil. Many use it as a means of control, but there is an opportunity to open minds to greater vision if it can be shown that a hidden teaching lies therein. In my view one of the most misused teachings of he Bible concerns divorce. In the days of Moses a man could divorce a woman on a whim and Jesus saw this as an injustice and attempted to shift Israel in the other direction. But because people like to take one extreme position or another they went the other way and many were caught in loveless marriages from which there to be no escape. Margaret and Lawrence questioned my interpretation of the scripture I quoted on divorce so I thought I would clarify further here. I would be happy to take any questions if further clarification is needed. One of the problems is that many lump the words fornication and adultery as meaning the same thing, but such is not the case. Two entirely different words are used with two different meanings in the original language. Some churches realize this and define adultery as being sex by a married person with someone besides the spouse. They define fornication as sex between two unmarried people. They are on the right track in making a distinction between the two words, but have missed the principle behind them. For the most ancient and accurate definition we must look to the Hebrew: Fornication is translated from the Hebrew Z?N?H and the Greek PORNEIA. In connection with sex Z?N?H implies some type of prostitution - either playing the roll of a prostitute or using a prostitute. On the other hand, more often than not it is used in the Bible to imply an act that has nothing to do with sex. Strong's Concordance defines it as "committing idolatry." Time and time again in the scriptures when the heart of the people of Israel or Jerusalem left the true God and worshipped idols they were said to be committing fornication. Adultery comes from N?'APH and we all know the common meaning here. In addition to referring to sexual betrayal it is also used to label one who has drifted away from God or the true teachings from God. How does idolatry correspond to prostitution? The person who visits the prostitute receives sex for money with no exchange of the love energy. The prostitute only gives him tenderness when she receives something in return. Without the exchange of love there is only physical effects and satisfaction. On the other hand when one finds a faithful and loving wife sex is exchanged with no money involved. Both receive fulfillment through love that goes beyond physical satisfaction. Faithful companions give to each other even when there is no money or physical benefit in sight. Idolatry is very similar prostitution in that the idol commands your physical attention and some type of payment or sacrifice. The idol gives not of true love, but only the illusion of fulfillment. When the relationship is over the person walks away from the idol empty-handed. On the other hand, if one sees the invisible God as the partner in a marriage relationship he will dedicate his life to Him and receive the true benefit of love in return. Like the faithful spouse God does not demand physical payment for fleeting pleasure, but instead commands your heart and loyalty in return for love that never dies. Here is a scripture that tells us that the city of Tyre has committed fornication because she is playing the roll of a prostitute. Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. Here is another one telling us that Jerusalem is committing a similar error: Ezek 16:15 But thou (Jerusalem) didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications (Z?N?H) on every one that passed by; his it was. Ezek 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Ezek 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and maddest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom (Z?N?H - fornication) with them Here we are told as plain as word can be that Jerusalem committed fornication through idolatry and not sex. The scriptures also use adultery in symbolic ways not involving sex: Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce... Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. Here Judah betrayed God and this non sexual betrayal was called adultery. Because of this God said that he was giving her a bill of divorcement. Here is a scripture where both the words are used implying that there are two different meanings Gal 5:18-19 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Here is a scripture that clearly tells us that fornication has a meaning that differs from adultery. I Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Paul tells us that marriage will help us avoid fornication. On the other hand, one cannot commit adultery unless he is married. Many times in the scriptures the word fornication is used in connection with idols or sacrifices made thereto. Here are some examples: Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Notice in these two examples that fornication is linked strongly to idolatry and also to false teachings. This indicates that a form of fornication is to lave a true teacher or teaching and embrace a false one that may sound good and easy, but is as illusionary as an idol. Note that Jesus himself tells us that adultery is not always a physical act: Matt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. He also said that fornication comes from the heart: Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: If therefore one can commit adultery and fornication within the heart and can carry out this error in ways that do not involve sex would this not also mean that the scriptures would also sanctify divorce in cases that do not involve sex, but instead the condition of the heart? With this in mind let us again examine the scripture in question: "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commiteth adultery". (Matt. 5:32) A justifiable cause of divorce is therefore fornication. If one thus takes his heart away from his spouse and puts it on an idol (idolized person) in place of the spouse he has therefore committed fornication. This makes a lot of sense when you think of it. Who wants to stay married to someone who does not have his or her heart dedicated to you? Such a marriage is indeed lifeless and if the hearts cannot be joined again in unity divorce can actually be a beneficial option. It only makes sense that the couple should do everything within their power to join again the hearts as one before considering this final solution. I believe the core meaning was left out of the above scripture. Let me quote it again with additional light in parenthesis. "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, (her love and heart is not with you) causeth her to commit adultery: (If her heart is with you and you leave her she violates her heart if she is joins with another) and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced (her heart belongs to the previous spouse) committeth adultery (you are having sex with one whose heart belongs to another)". (Matt. 5:32) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15478 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Illicit? (was "Re: Divorce ") Brian Weis writes: "why are homosexuality and lesbianism lumped in the same category?" Hmmmmm......don't know......maybe because each prefers his/her own gender. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15479 From: Margaret Leach Subject: Re: Idolarty Thank you, JJ, for taking time to answer my questions. Makes perfect sense to me. With Love & Light, Margaret Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15480 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Idolarty Beautifully written posting, thank you, JJ. I went to church regularity as a child & a teen. I was one that thought the bible was hooey in my adult life. but thanks to being on this list I am able to put things together, at least in a way i wasn't able to before. There was a lot that wasn't in the bible that seems to me to have belonged there. I always knew there must have been more than just one lifetime, but it wasn't taught. I also worried that God wouldn't really know how much i loved him, if i didn't really know my self. I knew i loved him, but what if it wasn't enough. As you can guess, i should have been on a couch years ago. This list, and you, JJ, have helped me bring the unreal into the REAL. No longer will i worry about what isn't worth worrying about.. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15481 From: Dave Curtis Subject: OT: Making a Difference Maybe it's just me, but I've felt a bit of a 'disturbance' over the last couple of weeks, and I felt compelled to tell a story I once heard a while ago. Maybe it will help someone else out there as well. A man was walking along an island shore during low-tide one clear night. As he was walking he saw an old man, one of the island natives, walking along the shore picking up the starfish that had washed ashore, and throwing them back into the ocean. Curious, he asked the old man, "Why are you throwing those starfish back into the ocean?" The old man replied, "If I don't throw them back, they will die." Perplexed, the man said, "There must thousands of starfish on this shore. There are thousands more all over the rest of the island. As you save some, others will wash ashore. You are just one man. You couldn't possibly make a difference." The old man simply smiled, bent down, picked up another starfish and tossed it into the ocean. "Made a difference for that one", he said. - Dave Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15482 From: xavier Subject: Re: Idolarty Sharon and Richard wrote: "This list, and you, JJ, have helped me bring the unreal into the REAL. No longer will i worry about what isn't worth worrying about.. love to all, sharon" This is beautiful, thanks;-) To bring the unreal into the real, no longer needing to worry about what isn't worth worrying about. Simple words to tell about a profound experience;-) An experience that is still lived by a minority of people, meeting one's soul;-) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15483 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Idolarty xavier wrote: "Sharon and Richard wrote: "This list, and you, JJ, have helped me bring the unreal into the REAL. No longer will i worry about what isn't worth worrying about.." "This is beautiful, thanks;-) To bring the unreal into the real, no longer needing to worry about what isn't worth worrying about. Simple words to tell about a profound experience;-) An experience that is still lived by a minority of people, meeting one's soul;-)" ((((((((XAVIER)))))))) It's a simple thing but so very true never-the-less. It's good to see you Xavier. Love, Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15484 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Idolarty Nice to hear from you, Xavier. You have been missed. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-16/15485 From: "susan carter" Subject: Re: Pre-Natal Consciousness Whew....I was aware of the dark Illuminati and just couldn't picture you with that group! Thanks for the history lesson. Susan Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15486 From: "Dorr Hanson" Subject: OT Hi, I'm Dana from Helper, Utah. I have been a lurker on the list since March of this year. I have been in contact with Lorraine in regards to the Gathering and she suggested that I introduce myself. I appreciate all of the comments on the list. Thank you for sharing. Dana (Gidget Wafflechunks) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15487 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Dana Very happy to meet you, Dana. So glad you can join us. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15488 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Re: OT Hi Dana, Nice to meet you:) welcome love Debs Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15489 From: Claire Subject: OT-Movie: Jesus Ye gads, did anyone get to watch the movie "Jesus", which aired the 2nd half tonight? I thought it was much better than any ever before made. In it, Mary Magdaline was referred to as a prostitute, and since the list has been talking about prostitutes (among other things) I was wondering how people feel about her? I read that in some portions of the Gnostics they revere her most highly, perhaps even above Mary, the mother of Jesus. Claire Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15490 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: OT-Movie: Jesus I didn't see the entire miniseries, but I can say that what I did see impressed me without , I cannot make a comment Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15491 From: Deborah Matthies Subject: Re: OT-Movie: Jesus I thought the movie was lacking any feeling of spirit, what I watched of it. The best part was the location imo. Deb Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15492 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: OT-Movie: Jesus (2) ACK! I did the early send thing again! Now, as I was saying.... I was impressed with what I saw, but since I didn't see the complete production, I cannot rate it. Regarding Claire's comment about it being "better than any ever before made," all I can say is that she is giving it pretty high praise. Up until this point, I thought that "The Last Temptation of Christ" was among the best films ever made about Jesus and his mission. Of course, that film didn't even come CLOSE to the Nikos Kazantzakis (sp?) novel on which it was based. (Hmmmm...does anyone see a pattern in my film reviews? LOL). Thanks for sharing your opinion Claire. Now I have to wait until the video is available at BlockBuster or something! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15493 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: Re: OT "Dorr Hanson" writes: "I'm Dana from Helper, Utah." Hi Dana, I've been through Helper many times on my way from Denver to Provo. Welcome and bless you. Love, Craig Tholson Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15494 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: OT-Movie: Jesus Yes, Claire. I loved the movie too so I guess we are in the minority here. Diane Claire wrote: "Ye gads, did anyone get to watch the movie "Jesus"," Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15495 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Jesus Movie Hi Claire, We watched the movie and loved it. He enjoyed himself, he danced, had fun, played, i'm sure it must have angered some, but not us. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-17/15496 From: Lorraine Brutsman Subject: it's me, it's long, it's everything I could think of Hi Keysters, I've owed you this post for a long time now so forgive me if it is long. Regarding auras - I did the exercise for the first time when I read The Celestine Prophecy's. I have been able to see the glow around a life ever since. I knew if I concentrated I could see it bigger but since my eyes were out of focus and I wanted to see it bigger I just thought I had made it happen myself. I had never seen colors before. When JJ told us how to look for them I tried on others but got nothing. Then I tried on myself in the bathroom mirror. At first I could just see the light and as I de-focused the light got bigger. But sure enough, as my eyes de-focused, I saw color. It was kind of yellow or gold like. The color that best describes it would be Goldenrod. I can't see the whole body, just the area I am staring at. And it's not very big. My eyes seem to dry out. It reminds me of looking at one of those optical illusion prints where it just looks like a bunch of dots till you can focus on the 3-D like picture inside. I will continue to practice. Regarding Dana; Welcome. I am glad you introduced yourself to the group. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? What do you do? Any family? What kind of background? How did you find us? What draws you to us? Sorry for the third degree, I'm not the gestapo, really, just want to know you more. Regarding JJ's post. Let me tell you a story from my own life. I have been married several times and have not always given my heart to my partner. I guarantee that sex with my legal partner felt just like prostitution. On the other hand, I have made love with a partner I was not married to and I'm telling you now that sharing my heart energies is a form of spiritual worship. I have committed fornication by being with a man in the mock, empty act of making love because there was no love in my heart. And I sure don't need the civil law of our land telling me it's ok to make love, share energies, create (procreate) with another. Now, inside the boundaries of my commitments, I have kept my word to all my husbands. I never cheated on them, however, truth be known, I did. I cheated them out of a full share of me. To fornicate is to cheat some one out of what they think they have, as I understand it. Then adultery would be to know you are doing it. I would be committing fornication if I stayed with a man, letting him think all is well, while I dreamed of a different life. Adultery would be if I spent the best part of me with another and still claimed to love my partner. I know I don't care, yet I stay. Like Israel, they knew they were choosing badly, yet they justified their choice. Wives justify reasons to stay. If this is true, we are truly an adulterous society. And we don't even know it. Regarding The Gathering; Things are coming along nicely. I have received several reservations and some notice of intents. Today is the 17th and I need at least your notice of intent by the 1st of June. I need an accurate head count by then. The $80 per person includes Fri lunch and dinner, all meals Sat, and Sun breakfast. If you're coming on Thursday the cost is just $15 more and meals will be in restaurants till then. If you're flying in come on Thursday please. Regarding my personal life; my daughter, who's pictured with me in the album, graduated from High School last Saturday even though she started the school year pregnant, was in total bed rest for 2 months prior to birth, (remember when I went down there?). She took the baby to school with her everyday, held a part time job and graduated. She beat the odds big time! I just thought since so many of you have been following the story of my life, you'd like to know. Craig, it looks like you and I were in Oklahoma City at the same time. Wish I'd known that then. Ok, enough about me, sorry it's so long but I was way over due. Come on, admit it, you missed me didn't you? See you in less than a month now, Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-18/15497 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Jesus Movie Sharon/ Richard wrote: "Hi Claire, We watched the movie and loved it. He enjoyed himself, he danced, had fun, played, i'm sure it must have angered some, but not us." YES! Absolutely. I was a bit fascinated with the scenes where he has dialogs with Satan especially near the end where he is trying to tempt Jesus to forgo the crucifixion. It seemed a bit hurried near the end but I would have loved to see about 1 hour more or what they cut out of the movie. Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-18/15498 From: xavier Subject: Re: Idolarty Sharon and Richard wrote: "Nice to hear from you, Xavier. You have been missed." I'm around, don't worry;-) I'll meet some of the nice people in Idaho;-) Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-18/15499 From: J J Dewey Subject: Jesus Movie Just time for a brief comment.. I too enjoyed the Jesus movie. Even though it did not present anything new teachings it did present a more human Jesus - particularly one who had a little humor, smiled and danced. I thought the devil was quite a creative character also. I personally would like to see them make a movie of the Aquarian Gospel. That would definitely create a rise within the religious establishment. I think it would also be quite successful. "True humility is to recognize your place on the path and act accordingly." DK paraphrased Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-05-18/15500 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Jesus Movie J J writes: "I personally would like to see them make a movie of the Aquarian Gospel. That would definitely create a rise within the religious establishment. I think it would also be quite successful." Hi JJ and all I wonder if the Aquarian Gospel and the Agnostic Bible are one and the same? I read the Agnostic Bible years back and was delighted then to read about Jesus pulling little boy stunts when he was small. It also talked about Jesus getting married. The only part I had a problem with was when he avoided the crucifixion and lived out a full life. That book made him far more human also and I understood more fully. I also watch the movie "Jesus". Unfortunately, I fell asleep after the devil tried to get him to release himself from going to the cross. I hear chuckles ..... hey, it doesn't come on here till 9 pm and I always fall asleep at 10 pm, even when my favorite Voyager is on. I often miss the end of that one. So I am now waiting for the tape to come out. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-1: /2000-05-18/15501 From: "Rapter" Subject: OT Double Energy Field Question for J.J. When Jesus was overshadowed by the 'Christ' did his energy field change? If someone viewed Jesus/Christ's energy field at the time would they see one egg shaped field superimposed upon the other? Almost like a double effect? The reason I ask this question is a book I read described some people as having double egg shaped energy fields, one superimposed upon the other. (Is this what possession would look like?) Keith Post No. keys-1: /2000-05-18/15502 From: Claire Subject: Re: Jesus Movie Hi, Marilyn, Too bad you fell asleep after the devil sequence. At the end of the movie they offered tape for sale. Maybe $19.95? Perhaps you could go to the website of the channel that aired it, ABC? and buy it from there. I didn't remember ever reading about the devil tempting Jesus before the crucifixion, but it really made me think, when they showed future wars not being diverted due to his actions. It made me wonder why he would go through all that. It really made me wonder what the true message of the crucifixion really was. Was it that there is life after death? Or did he initiate life after death right then? Or did he initiate a new level of consciousness through that act? Claire Marylin wrote: "Unfortunately, I fell asleep after the devil tried to get him to release himself from going to the cross. I hear chuckles.......hey, it doesn't come on here till 9 pm and I always fall asleep at 10 pm, even when my favorite Voyager is on. I often miss the end of that one. So I am now waiting for the tape to come out." Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15503 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Jesus Movie Good questions, Claire. The movie is 29.95. Di Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15504 From: Margaret Leach Subject: Re: Jesus Movie J J Dewey wrote: "I personally would like to see them make a movie of the Aquarian Gospel." I was thinking that all thru the movie. I agree wholeheartedly. And I think the discussions raised would be Excellent!! I too think it would have a good chance at success. I thought the movie was one of the better "jesus" flicks but still left so much to be desired. -- Especially the ending scenes with the men finding the tomb empty first!! That's one of the few things the Gospel writers grant to the women and this film took it away. Humpf!! At least the film let Mary Magdalene be the one to [almost] convince the disciples. It did seem now and then as if the writers/producers were injecting bits and pieces of non-traditional accountings, as well as, of course, Hollywood renditions. Too bad they apparently didn't know about (or were afraid of) the Aquarian Gospel. BTW, the Aquarian Gospel and the Agnostic Gospel are two Very Different renditions. Aquarian Gospel is much more mystical and metaphysical -- for lack of better terms. I highly recommend it. Love and Light, Margaret Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15505 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Jesus Movie That's why I'd like to see more of the movie that didn't make it to the little screen. I wonder if the taped version for sale has more than was on tv. I don't watch much of the religious type movies but felt drawn to this one. I hadn't heard of the one that ~B talked of or the book. ;) Diane Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15506 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Jesus Movie I'm surprised you haven't heard of "The Last Temptation of Christ." At least the movie if not the novel. When the movie came out several years ago, it was the subject of much protest -- from Catholics and such. They felt it was too blasphemous. But as I recall, most of them "knew" the film only from hearsay; they had not even seen it for themselves!! By the way, Peter Gabriel did the music for "The Last Temptation of Christ" and it is available: It is called "Passion." And as long as we're talking about Jesus movies, did anyone see the claymation/animation flick that was on TV around Easter? I think it was called "A Special Miracle" or something like that. It was pretty cool. ~B. Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15507 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: OT Cool.. another Utah person. ;) One question.. there's a Helper, UT? Never heard of it. ;) Whereabouts is that? I'm in Layton, just south of Ogden. Welcome, looking forward to see what you have to add to our little discussions. Travis Dorr Hanson wrote: "I'm Dana from Helper, Utah. I have been a lurker on the list since March of this year. I have been in contact with Lorraine in regards to the Gathering and she suggested that I introduce myself. I appreciate all of the comments on the list. Thank you for sharing. Dana (Gidget Wafflechunks)" Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15508 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: OT How appropriate that a Keyster would be from a town called "Helper." Welcome aboard -- er, um, thanks for stepping out of anonaminity!! ~B. Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15509 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Jesus Movie Brian Weis wrote: "I'm surprised you haven't heard of "The Last Temptation of Christ." Nope, I don't watch much religious type movies. What was so blasphemous about the movie or book? Diane Post No. keys-1:/2000-05-18/15510 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: OT Oh, I don't know. A number of things I guess. From Hollywood.com: "Religious leaders from around the world condemned the film--sight unseen--as blasphemous and offensive. The fact that many of the protestors' claims were unfounded, if not outright wrong, proved immaterial in the scheme of things. At the center of the controversy was a film exploring the duality of God and man--attempting to understand divinity through the human side of Christ. By showing Jesus as both man and God, Scorsese and Kazantzakis attempt to show that spirituality is a state that most achieve through tireless effort--rather than simply something that is." The movie is based, not on the Gospels, but on Nikos Kazantzakis' novel of the same name. In the film, the carpenter Jesus of Nazareth is tormented by the temptations of demons, the guilt of making crosses for the Romans, pity for men and the world, and the constant call of God. He sets out to find what God wills for him. But as his mission nears fulfillment (At his execution), he must face the greatest temptation: --simply explanation: Jesus is tempted with the normal life of a good man. --Longer explanation: Jesus is tempted by an alluring image of a peaceful and pleasant life with Mary Magdalene to try to get him to refuse the sacrifice he must make Movie featured William Dafoe as Jesus, Harvey Keitel as Judas, and Barbara Hershey as Mary Magdalene. Additional Reading Here is a fairly balanced review and some background from Hollywood.com: http://sites.hollywood.com/digital/movies/moviepage/0,1258,54,00.shtml Here is a write-up from the side of those in protest: http://www.answers.org/Issues/Last_Temptation.html Some words from Nikos Kazantzakis: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/christ/christ.html An interesting -- and favorable -- review along with additional "visitor" comments: http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/last_temptation.htm The Last Temptation reconsidered: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9602/iannone.html Hope that helps! : ) ~B. Post No. keys-1: /2000-05-18/15511 From: Craig Tholson Subject: OT Hey Travis, Get out your atlas dude; Helper is the largest suburb of Price, Utah! On the north edge of town. Craig Post No. keys-1:/2000-2/05-18/15512 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: OT Hey! Too bad we don't have a state named Helper. Then we could have a state capital called Hamburg. Oh, and a se