2000 - WEEK 17 Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14635 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Dead and Buried? Great Caesar's Ghost is alive and well OK Mark .. we will drop it here ... What I originally posted was a "cut and paste" from a current edition CD Rom version of Strong .... if there is a discrepancy, it perhaps highlights some of the difficulties of those who are led by the various dogma and doctrine as to what is right and what is wrong .. Ryanto was one of the linguists for "Strongs" a while back .. and one of the things he commented on was that, even in preparing references such as this "Lexicon", the committee had very strong disputes as to origin and meaning of words directly related to the genetic lineage and religious background of the translator. Ryanto is one of very few who has no Christian or Jewish background ... and therefore no genetic idealogy to influence his translations..... so what hope do some of us have ... and this is, perhaps one point I am making .. that, even in our translations and our interpretation we are being led by the nose ... the flavour and the smell of the beliefs that have ruled our long dead ancestors .. and indeed killed many of them .... Great Caesar's Ghost is the Spiritual Legacy of Roman Christendom Thanks Mark .... Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14636 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Dead and Buried? Great Caesar's Ghost is alive and well Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 14635 Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14637 From: Rick Audette Subject: [OT] The "Real" Petra Hi All, My new software allows for much better rendering of my comic characters. I just spent the evening telling it all the stats for creating Petra and then made three new illustrations. I haven't put them on a web page yet, but have uploaded one to http://petracity.intercosmos.com/drawer4.jpg At this point, she feels something is different, but hasn't figured it out yet. A full view of her face is not given until several illustrations later (yet to be drawn), when her computer monitor mirrors her image. The story line is that she becomes more real, by drinking the "Living Waters". Interesting, that this should happen to her on Easter :) Love, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14638 From: J J Dewey Subject: Into The New Thanks Mark for covering the Greek for Spirit and PNEUMA. I couldn't have done it better. Peter, did Glenys's references answer your question? Let me know if you need further elaboration. BTW - Thank you Glenys for not being too tough on me for posting your handwriting. Thanks to the Oneness principle I knew I wouldn't be in too much trouble. The time has come for some of the group to make a new step forward in service. A call is therefore issued to those who meet the following criteria. (1) You feel a soul connection with me and sense an inner knowing about teachings I have presented and the direction I am pointing. (2) You see yourself as totally dedicated to world service as opposed to serving the individual self. (3) You feel impressed that you need to do more. (4) You are willing to dedicate 5 hours a week to group work If this rings a bell with you send me a personal e-mail as an application and you will be contacted. John - You're welcome to post this on your forum. JJ Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14639 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: [JJ Dewey] Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit Christopher Wynter wrote: "When I looked at the linguistic roots and the Doctrine, it made me think very deeply about the lie of religion and the manipulation of society by the organised church" Christopher, could you elaborate on that some? Could you kind of do so in as simple a language as possible? I really don't understand some of your more esoteric writings, but I would really like to get a clear picture of what you are saying here. Thanks! lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14640 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Christ Reincarnated Craig, I tried your website: http://www4.intellink.net/~tholsonc/ (the above is what it got redirected to). The navigation buttons on top didn't have visible labels when I tried it. I just moved the mouse around until the arrow cursor turned into the "pointing hand" cursor indicating a link and voila, got to: http://www4.intellink.net/~tholsonc/id18.htm But the initial screen has a few problems .:) Btw, a big thanks for the pointer though! lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14641 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Into The New you wrote: "The time has come for some of the group to make a new step forward in service. A call is therefore issued to those who meet the following criteria." Within the realms of religion and spirituality down through the ages there have been a number of sect, cults and secret societies formed which have not had the evolution of the individual soul as their prime objective, and have been set up purely as a power base where the energy of the followers has been used to further the particular agenda of one or several ... or of a system. On the surface, the ideals have seemed great .. and in fact, everything has gone along fine for a period of time as people got to know one another and were joined together in the visualisation of a common goal. Having worked in the past within several of these organisations in Australia and having seen the way they work, and seen the ramifications for the individuals and having seen the end result .. including investigations by national security of several "World Peace" groups (and prosecutions laid) ... Now you may call me suspicious .. and I will be the first to apologise to the list if I am wrong ... But, my instinct .. my intuition, my gut feeling based on experience not need causes me to ask this question .... JJ did not fully answer a question I posed on the list a little while back concerning the end objective of some of his writings nor whether he was heading in the direction of some of the sources he did acknowledge as having read in spite of the protestations of several on this list at the question I asked ..... I have written to JJ privately asking him to declare his hand and I await, with interest, his reply .... If the individual health, well being and soul evolution for this list and those members here who choose ... is the prime focus of his writing, then the answer will be clear. If the hidden agenda behind the Urantia Manuscripts and the works of JJ Hurtak and others similar is the end goal, then the answer will not be clear. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14642 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [Lawrence] Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit Christopher Wynter wrote: "When I looked at the linguistic roots and the Doctrine, it made me think very deeply about the lie of religion and the manipulation of society by the organised church" Lawrence wrote: "Christopher, could you elaborate on that some? Could you kind of do so in as simple a language as possible? I really don't understand some of your more esoteric writings, but I would really like to get a clear picture of what you are saying here." This is a very deep subject that has been part of much work, Lawrence, and I appreciate and understand your asking the question. What you quoted above is something that I outlined in something I wrote on how I defined Church .. that I considered it not as an institution but rather the embodiment and expression of a quality of consciousness firstly within an individual (you or I). from that I followed on that one of the Keys to this was free expression and discussion and the growth of the individual soul without the fear of inquisition and without manipulation.by what the individual should believe to be the truth .. on pain of a consequence if (s)he does not .... toe the "party line" Perhaps it may help if we can start with a common language and maybe even a specific question you might have so that I can write perhaps less esoterically and with more meaning in what I write for Lawrence the person. Then, you may be able to more easily make up your own mind as to what is truth for you .. and it won't be what I have told you that you should believe.... because this is not my way... I am happy to take the time to do this .. either on list or privately .. whatever is most appropriate. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14643 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Into The New Christopher Wynter wrote: 'I have written to JJ privately asking him to declare his hand and I await, with interest, his reply ...." Christopher, you have been on the list for longer than most now. You have seen JJ 'declare his hand' time and time again. What is it you don't understand? What is JJ not saying that is making you constantly question his motives when he clarifies them every few weeks in an effort to promote understanding? If it's just those few questions you've asked above, you would know as well as anyone here that JJ has answered them. And why have you decided to bring up Hurtak again when you said you were content with JJ's response? Maybe it's time you declared *your* hand once and for all and allow those who are satisfied with JJ's responses to get on with the reasons they joined this list. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- We do not listen and do not follow this voice within our own souls, and so we become a house divided against itself. We are pulled this way and that, and we are never certain of anything. ~ Ralph W. Trine Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14644 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: Address It All It is not my intention to insult JJ, nor rub your nose in the obvious here, Glenys, but here is the situation as many of us see it - JJ writes fiction (or maybe fact) and in the context of the fiction alludes to the pretense that the fiction is a cover for truth that we wouldn't ordinarily accept if he were up-front with us. That, by itself, is enough to raise red flags for me. The bottom line is that we are being sold someone's version by slight-of-hand, at least The Immortal uses similar literary license. Is JJ up-front with communication on the list? No, he defers the "full story" to his future releases of more fiction masked as truth, or is it truth masked as fiction? Now, there is the camp who insists that they feel the spirit of oneness with JJ, and therefore, his delivery is unimportant to them. I believe the list defines this as "soul communication." I judge a man by all of his fruits. Yes, I consider JJ's methodology part of his fruits. Let me say what I see. This is down the middle, no brown nose and no ridicule either. JJ represents himself as coming from a place of ultimate knowing. Is it "his" knowing, tainted by "his" perception, or is it absolute? Most of JJ's correspondence appears absolute to me. Rare is it to see JJ preface his position with, "Well, this is merely my opinion..." JJ comes from absolute knowing, at least his comments are for the most part presented as authoritarian. If JJ is right about everything, then we all can rejoice, for we have found the fountain of living waters! I am not too proud to follow a higher intelligence. I have much to learn. The fountain of living waters might teach me all I need to know. I have had many teachers, male and female, who have not disappointed me. Some of them thought they were said fountain. They turned out to have the power to convince only those who knew less than them. JJ can not disappoint me in this regard, for I do not put him up on a pedestal where he can disappoint me in this manner. He has already exposed me to things I have never heard before. For this I thank him. Is it important if he is eclectic as opposed to receiving direct revelation from the higher realms? Is it honest of Christopher to push this issue? Or should Christopher leave the list because he is perceived to be questioning the higher "authority" of JJ? I will absolutely support anybody who questions JJ's veracity. What has become of us when we stop questioning? Is JJ Dewey beyond reproach? Are any of us? I have never seen Christopher "attack" JJ. His probing has always been without verbal attack. Some innuendo is unavoidable. All apologies in advance for those who aren't afraid to ask. Lovingly submitted for your rejection, Craig Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14645 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Address It All Craig writes: "Is it important if he is eclectic as opposed to receiving direct revelation from the higher realms? Is it honest of Christopher to push this issue? Or should Christopher leave the list because he is perceived to be questioning the higher "authority" of JJ?" Remember folks, we have been told time and again not to BLINDLY accept any outside agency's AUTHORITY. JJ has stressed several times to only accept that which you have tested for yourself. Is JJ above question? Hell no. If he claimed to be above question or reproach, I would have been off this list long ago. If JJ presents something that does not pass muster with your inner knowing, then you must do everything possible to fully test it. And that includes questioning, asking for clarification, and wailing and gnashing of teeth. You do, of course, always have the option of dropping it and (maybe) returning to it at a later time. But don't give up on it -- don't dismiss it -- until you have fully tested it to your own (dis)satisfaction. Thank you, Craig, for your sharing and for the gentle reminder. ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14646 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Into The New "The time has come for some of the group to make a new step forward in service. A call is therefore issued to those who meet the following criteria. "(1) You feel a soul connection with me and sense an inner knowing about teachings I have presented and the direction I am pointing. "(2) You see yourself as totally dedicated to world service as opposed to serving the individual self. "(3) You feel impressed that you need to do more. "(4) You are willing to dedicate 5 hours a week to group work "If this rings a bell with you send me a personal e-mail as an application and you will be contacted. John - You're welcome to post this on your forum. JJ "Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey "All Rights Reserved" The real teacher in service of mankind would not even mention let alone stress the relationship of the students with them as teacher. The real teacher only shows the way without ever prescribing specific tasks or works, much less number of hours of work a day, to be done by the students. JJ's numbers 1 and 4 requirements seem reflective, his motive aside, of the characteristics of interest groups whose goal is not application of oneness principle to all humanity but separative personal power in the spiritual arena. Why all of a sudden the soul or soul contact has disappeared in the work of the soul? Beware! Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14647 From: Brian Weis Subject: OT - IBM And Mind Input Devices from the I-want-a-brain-pointer department: "The basic idea is that an electronic device that produces random static noise may be affected by an observer if that static noise is based on the state of subatomic particles. This interaction of the user with the device can be measured and used as a form of input. An interesting aspect of quantum physics is that when a subatomic particle is observed its state changes (its wave function collapses), and the new state that it assumes cannot be predicted. Various theories exist as to why a particle assumes whatever state it does when its wave function collapses. One theory is that the observer is somehow interacting with the particle, causing it to assume its new state. Researchers at Princeton's Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) lab have amassed statistically significant data that says that an observer affects the new state of the observed particles. In some way, our mind interacts with these particles, and this interaction can be measured. IBM wants to use this measurement to create a new type of input device that basically reads your mind, no wires attached. IBMs Patent (http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05830064__), PEARs Website (http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/). Incidentally, the inventors of this patent are a who's-who of the members of PEAR. Particularly Jahn and Dunne." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14648 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Address It All Brian Weis writes: "Remember folks, we have been told time and again not to BLINDLY accept any outside agency's AUTHORITY. JJ has stressed several times to only accept that which you have tested for yourself." Part of the description of this list as posted on spiritweb is this: The story, and the additional teachings, may or may not be true. It is up to each of us to decide. But whatever the option rendered, the story and teachings are worthy of serious consideration. Subscribers to this list seek to learn, understand, follow, and spread the teachings being passed down to us through the author, JJ Dewey. Now, for those who wish to discuss the writings of JJ Dewey, this list is the place for them. For those who do not wish to discuss his writings, this list is not the place for them. Perhaps Christopher should stick with his own list if he is discontent with this list, but certainly, there is no reason, imho, to come on board and start throwing rocks in the name of "simple questioning".. just my opinion, but as most of you know by now, I am not the least bit impressed with Christopher and his tactics on the many lists I am on with him. I do believe he has an agenda on each list which is counterproductive to the lists. Just my opinion, not necessarily a fact or a truth. Sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14649 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: A Can of Worms .... Just a random thought, and the realization I could possibly be missing something. Christopher how does this argument align with the Mysteries such as Osiris, Isis, Horus, or even Bhrahma, Vishnu, or Shiva, which outdate the Vulgate by thousands of years. The trinity has been known and taught for thousands of years. How long has the Roman Catholic Church been here in your opinion. Is the contempt for the Church a can of worms, or a Catch All for you. The Church is guilty of much including great notrocities, but lets not lay the fall of Adam and Eve on them too. Your Friend, John "Just a thought .... "How much of the concept of the Trinity came from the Vulgate ... "the Latin translation of the "biblical works" which forms the basis of so many of todays scriptural beliefs ... and was written as a political doctrine ... "it was from the Vulgate that the German translations were derived ... which provide so many of the early AngloSaxon translations and the roots of the language of our spirituality "Now, in this context .... "The Father .. The Roman Empire The Son ... Caesar The Holy Spirit .. Great Caesar's Ghost "hmmmm ... Christopher Wynter" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14650 From: RWBH Subject: Re: [JJ Dewey] Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit I'm just curious as to HOW those writing in Greek about concepts the Greeks may never have had (such as Holy Ghost being something beyond pneuma i.e the Greek understanding of spirit) could have used anything but local expressions for far different ideas? Just like if some old prophet saw a vision of today...he might say the streets were full of speeding chariots (cars)...and even we called them 'horseless carriages' at first....because we can only define the new in terms of the old. So how could the Greek language properly convey any idea beyond their own understanding such as using pneuma in this case. The point is, can we work it backwards to get to the root meaning? Maybe pneuma was their equivalent spiritually of horseless carriage. brian Christopher Wynter wrote: "Tell that to Vines and Strong ... who resognise the suffix or EK as an integral part of PNEUMA in changing the meaning in specific instances of the scripture "Pneuma occurs a total of 220 times in the Greek New Testament writings .. and only 91 times without qualification "There are very definite meanings in the transliteration of PNEUMA where it is defined within the Greek ... as a psychological/philosophical term Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14651 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Primordial Molecule In a state of Becoming?????? JW . ".... Hmmmmm..... Where does this leave the most prolific element in the universe ... Hydrogen ... atomic number 1 ... 1 proton, 1 electron .... The Hydrogen Molecule is two atoms orthohydrogen and parahydrogen where the nuclei spin in parallel and anti parallel rotation Neutrons are only present in isotopes of hydrogen .. Deuterium (0.02%) 1 neutron and Tritium which is unstable and radioactive and has 2 neutrons Christopher Wynter" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14652 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Into The New Paul Yu writes: "JJ's numbers 1 and 4 requirements seem reflective, his motive aside, of the characteristics of interest groups whose goal is not application of oneness principle to all humanity but separative personal power in the spiritual arena. "Why all of a sudden the soul or soul contact has disappeared in the work of the soul? " Dear Paul, I can, on one level, identify with your concerns, however, I think I read a bit more into the posting by JJ. I think there are groups within groups, and groups within the groups within...:-), and it seems possible that JJ is seeking out those who might want to work more on an inner core level with him. That is what I saw when I read the words, and I am not against those philosophies. I have noticed, within my own group, there are groups within, and some of our outer group is not as interested in spending time doing some of things some of us do, but yet, we also are able to connect at other times with the larger group. For instance, triangle meditations.. some of our group are very involved, and others are not interested. Still, we are one large group. I do not think JJ is showing himself as "the" teacher, I think he is offering publicly the opportunity for those who might wish to commit to working more privately in a smaller group for more intense, committed service to humanity. Again, that is just my opinion, what I read into it, and perhaps JJ had another idea. No matter what, I believe that JJ Dewey has done a great service for others through his writings and this list, and I support him completely. Sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14653 From: RWBH Subject: Re: Primordial atom then The next line does say "whole atoms" could also maybe be molecules. Placing male or female attributes on these things as if they were human seems pointless. A positive or negative charge shouldn't be interpreted in human terms, IMO. The BIG question....and maybe scientist Chris can answer this...to me is this: since there cannot be anything resembling a perpetual motion machine...what is it that keeps the atom's electrons in infinite movement...or will there come a day when the electrons collapse into the center, it's energy spent? What energizes an atom? brian Judy Reese wrote: "Brian[RWBH]: No ridicule intended, Judes, but you are somewhat weak on chemistry here (especially if I can correct you, sheshe). Neutron and proton and electron make up an ATOM. "Can't you have a molecule with just one atom though?? LOL Forget the isotopes and ionics and spins...what kind of atom would our solar system be? with 9 electrons?? Who knows...probably my whole theory is wrong and we live in giant molecule of 3 dominant male energies of equal importance and the female energy just adds spin for entertainment purposes." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14654 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Into The New Christopher Wynter writes: "Within the realms of religion and spirituality down through the ages there have been a number of sect, cults and secret societies formed which have not had the evolution of the individual soul as their prime objective, and have been set up purely as a power base where the energy of the followers has been used to further the particular agenda of one or several ... or of a system." Many "secret" societies were formed to protect the teachings, a necessity to keep the truths available to mankind, as there are always those who will want to silence teachers. It is not always an agenda to self-promote to limit one's group to a small number, oftentimes more work can be done with a smaller, dedicated group, than a larger, public one. Certainly there are those who would taunt, disrupt, and discourage even the most sincere seekers, and that is part of what drives others away, and into "caves" to learn, in my opinion. Sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14655 From: RWBH Subject: Re: [OT] The "Real" Petra Hey...Petra is lookin' good! Very realistic look to her now. I'm wondering...do you have a palette of facial qualities sort of like the police sketch artist? If so....this leads to something I've always wondered about. If software can adapt a face to look as you chooose....one would be able to pick this and that and thus create a man or woman who was one's ideal....if one chose their favorite parts and looks...it would end up looking like one's ideal 'other'. I just think it's an interesting concept.....creation in the 'flesh' of one's ideal (as far as looks go). When does the manufacturing plant open????? brian Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14656 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Well it has been interesting reading this morning on the Keys List. History repeats itself again. One lone person who has made it there life's ambition to discredit JJ Dewey has been busy as usual. Even though they have left this list they still use ICQ and Email constantly to stir the pot, and plant doubts in some members of this list. Yet they do serve a purpose in my opinion which I outline below in a post to the members of the Forum. Paul was quiet clear this morning. Something unusual and out of character for him. Let me answer in this manner. Jesus Christ taught on three basic levels. He taught to the common people. Then he had an Inner Circle or intermediate class, that were capable of understanding more than the average person. Then he had the Inner Circle, the Apostles. Jesus didn't teach the outer circle what he taught the advanced, and intermediate class, and he didn't teach the intermediate class what he taught the Apostles. There were certain requirements to become a part of the Inner Groups. So I take Paul's attack on JJ this morning as an overt attack on Christ, and myself. I also take it as an attack on my style of teaching because I have always told the Forum that there would be a time certain ones would be moved into a higher class, and given things the normal forum isn't given. These people will then begin new works of their own. In time, they be moved into an even higher class, and those from the basic class will take there place in the intermediate class. This is my style, and I make no apologies for it, nor will I ever. It was good enough for Christ, and it's certainly good enough for one of his students. John The Seven Tests Tue Apr 18 20:11:22 2000 Every once in a while circumstances force us to take a necessary diversion from our regular course of study. This is what we are going to do know. I have felt something very strong lately. Many of you have come to know the Meaning of the Dark Night of the Soul. I'll bet you have a completely different understanding of this phenomenon now than you did just a year ago. It's a part of the growth process, just like testing is in any school. Although horrible at times, it in the long run, only makes us stronger. Now it's time to tell you another story that is as true today as thousands of years ago. It is another form of test, and a very important one. If you had attended the Ancient Egyptian Mystery Schools, it would have been proof that you were considered of a very high spiritual nature, and that you had already acquired quite a Spiritual Education. If not, you would have never been accepted. In the future I may walk you by the hand, through these initiations, step by step. They are truly beautiful and enlightening and will make you realize so very much from within yourself. That is exactly what they are designed to do. It is their PURPOSE, to test your Spiritual Metal. The strangest thing happened while Kimmi was visiting Potosi a few weeks ago. She had her twelve year old son with her and was telling me about there conversation on the way up from Texas. She had asked him what he thought of Life, and Death, and he came up with some creative answers for a twelve year old. The thing that struck me most about this young man was that he said he thought that we took tests, and there were seven of them we had to pass, before we could become something greater than human beings. Awesome! Well some of you know that there has been some problems on the Keys List lately, but it has been an ongoing thing for the longest time. I'm going to put some excerpts from the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ on here. I ask that you all read them and meditate on them because there are some blatant clues involved here, and if you have the Spiritual Maturity you will see through people that are attempting to mislead you. Some times these people are disguised in the Whitest Raiment, and speak the word love, as in every sentence. They may just seem to gush with Love, when in truth their Hearts are Black and filed with Vile. Beware of False Prophets. The Deceiver dawns many, many disguises, and the Wolf often comes disguised as a Sheep. So how do you avoid being deceived by these people. Simply by Soul Contact and Discernment. In The Mystery Schools of Ancient Egypt the White Brotherhood would always send one of their own to act the part of the Deceiver. He would appear to be so sincere, and Loving, just worried about your interests. He would try in every way possible to convince you that your teachers were really the Deceiver. This happened several times to see if doubt could be placed in the students mind, or if they had sufficient Spiritual Development to Discern which was telling the Truth. Only by the Soul can you be sure. Remember the Soul doesn't tend to repeat itself. It usually speaks but once. Listen Closely. Now what better example for this lesson than the actual testing of a man named Jesus in the Ancient Egyptian Mystery Schools. That is what you will soon be reading. So let us go to the next post. Read carefully, pay attention, the Deceiver is at the Door. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14657 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Primordial atom then Brian: Placing male or female attributes on these things as if they were human seems pointless. Judes: Yes..as 'spirit' really does not have gender as we humans have..but knowing that the energy is 'negative' as opposed to 'positive' [in realtion to the molecular physics] can help, me anyway, understand the dynamics and then make appropriate correspondences to increase my knowledge on this subject. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14658 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) John: Are you talking about Zia? I intuited that something is awry also..off-list. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14659 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Address It All "I will absolutely support anybody who questions JJ's veracity. What has become of us when we stop questioning? Is JJ Dewey beyond reproach? Are any of us? "I have never seen Christopher "attack" JJ. His probing has always been without verbal attack. Some innuendo is unavoidable. All apologies in advance for those who aren't afraid to ask." I do not presume to speak for Glenys. However, for myself, I will say that this has been an ongoing thing with Chris. Paul did it for a while too. The problem some of us have with them is not that they question JJ. Some of US to that. We get upset because they constantly ask the same questions over and over again, never accepting that JJ has said his piece. Always trying to make us believe their view rather than JJs. This is perceived as rude in JJs classroom. I think it's fair to say that. It's fine to question, but if the teacher gives his answer, that should be the end of the discussion unless new material is available. Travis Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14660 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: OT--Great Caesar's Ghost! Mark D Williams wrote: "I apologize to> other list members. This is my last email on this off- topic subject." Judes: IMO, Mark, this is NOT off-topic..as we have been discussing the Holy Spirit-Ghost-Breath for days. Now..this is an example of 'false humility'. Your input and revelation[I consider revelation to be a combination of wisdom-press from spirit]..is very revelant. Do not hide it 'under a bushel' for the sake of appearing humble to others. Not..that you are wanting to 'appear' humble as I am sure this is one of your earned virtues...but please do not fear your power and contributions...let it flow. Love: Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14661 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Sorry I was in a hurry and trying to do ten things at once. Anyone interested in reading the Aquarian Gospel can find it at http://www.interlog.com/~birkej/jes/aq/aquar001.htm The Spiritual Art of Becoming Forum can be found at http://discserver.snap.com/Indices/72212.html The posts quoting the seven tests can be found at http://discserver.snap.com/discussion.cgi?id=72212&article=1359 Your Friend John Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14662 From: "Enoch Theos" Subject: Introduction Hello everyone, I have been on the list for about a week lurking and watching the posts and have enjoyed a lot of them- I have read parts of JJs the Immortal book and was introduced to it over on David's Outcasts. I come from a Mormon LDS background but as well have adapted a couple new age type beliefs like reincarnation, and so forth. I have had many spiritual experiences and visions and was given the gift of prophecy when I was 15. If any of you would like to know more about me check out my home pages. http://www.enochgraphics.com/ http://eaglehost.com/enoch144/ Sincerely Enoch Theos Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14663 From: J J Dewey Subject: Something Wicked This Way Comes Chris writes: "The time has come for some of the group to make a new step forward in service. A call is therefore issued to those who meet the following criteria. Within the realms of religion and spirituality down through the ages there have been a number of sect, cults and secret societies formed which have not had the evolution of the individual soul as their prime objective, and have been set up purely as a power base where the energy of the followers has been used to further the particular agenda of one or several ... or of a system. On the surface, the ideals have seemed great .. and in fact, everything has gone along fine for a period of time as people got to know one another and were joined together in the visualization of a common goal. Having worked in the past within several of these organizations in Australia and having seen the way they work, and seen the ramifications for the individuals and having seen the end result .. including investigations by national security of several "World Peace" groups (and prosecutions laid) ... Now you may call me suspicious .. and I will be the first to apologize to the list if I am wrong ... But, my instinct .. my intuition, my gut feeling based on experience not need causes me to ask this question .... JJ did not fully answer a question I posed on the list a little while back concerning the end objective of some of his writings nor whether he was heading in the direction of some of the sources he did acknowledge as having read in spite of the protestations of several on this list at the question I asked ..... I have written to JJ privately asking him to declare his hand and I await, with interest, his reply .... If the individual health, well being and soul evolution for this list and those members here who choose ... is the prime focus of his writing, then the answer will be clear. If the hidden agenda behind the Urantia Manuscripts and the works of JJ Hurtak and others similar is the end goal, then the answer will not be clear." Christopher Wynter JJ Christopher - You often teach the importance of not reacting to our own projections, but I think that is exactly what you are doing here. You are over reacting with no cause, no evidence and no- thing but my attempt to serve and help. Because I know myself I know your intuition is wrong here. You express concern in your private letter to me that I may have connections with some sinister organization here on the earth. Let me first specify that I have nothing to do with any Urantia organization or Hurtak. I read his book around 20 years ago and that was all. I am not particularly impressed with Hurtak or Urantia. I cannot find a true newly revealed principle in either of them and the revelation of principles is my main criteria for value. I am not a member of any church or even loosely affiliated with any organization among humanity. I haven't even joined the local Chamber of Commerce. As Glenys said I have stated my objects numerous times. Here they are in a nutshell. (1) To do all I can to bring peace on earth good will to human kind. (2) To enhance the power of decision and the exercise of free will for the individual and group. (3) To free the individual and group from unearned and appointed authority which is the mark of the Beast. I do this by teaching that all things must be tested against a person's own soul in connection with judging through mind and heart. (4) To pass on teachings that I believe have much value. (5) To stimulate higher spiritual progress and evolution. (6) To do what I can to prepare the world for the coming of Christ. (7) To have a good time in the process. Apologies graciously accepted. Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14664 From: J J Dewey Subject: Methodology Thank you Sherry, John Travis and others for your comments. Sherry, a relatively new member sees my intentions pretty clearly. This is the logical way to see them unless one is unreasonably suspicious. Paul. It sounds from your last post that you have decided to become judgmental after all. Have you changed your mind about duality and decided to embrace it? Craig writes: "Now, there is the camp who insists that they feel the spirit of oneness with JJ, and therefore, his delivery is unimportant to them. I believe the list defines this as "soul communication." I judge a man by all of his fruits. Yes, I consider JJ's methodology part of his fruits." JJ What makes you think the method of delivery is not important to those who see truth in my teachings??? Have you asked them or taken a survey? I think if you ask some of those who have a soul connection with me that you will discover you are jumping to an erroneous conclusion here and underestimating the intelligence of many list members. Many find my presentation as a breath of fresh air after working through numerous works of fiction that are presented as truth. Anything that I present as a true occurrence I assure you is an event that really happened. Any teaching I present is presented as an item for consideration that you should not accept as true unless you give it every test possible, especially the test of your own soul. My methodology may be good or bad but method has nothing to do with fruit. Many disliked the methods of Jesus and crucified him for it, but his fruit was still good. One can plant a tree and have strange and unusual methods in cultivating it, but in the end it is the taste and quality of the fruit that is the test of value. The fruit is the fruit; the method is the method. They are two separate items. I would say that judging by the quality of people who are in harmony with me that the fruit is very good so far. Like attracts like. If this principle is indeed true then I am flattered. Craig: "Is it "his" knowing, tainted by "his" perception, or is it absolute? Most of JJ's correspondence appears absolute to me. Rare is it to see JJ preface his position with, "Well, this is merely my opinion..." JJ comes from absolute knowing, at least his comments are for the most part presented as authoritarian." JJ In many cases I see the teaching I give out as more than opinion, Thus it would be a lie to state it as such from my point of view. I present all teachings in as positive light as possible to jolt all seekers into using their discernment to discover the truth. The best way to get a response from your soul is not to run a weak opinion by it but to run an easily understood positive or negative statement or thought past your inner higher intelligence. Thus if I say something in error it is more likely to ring a bell within than some watered down statement that does not even wake the interest of the soul. I have preceded my teaching many times with the statement that they may or may not be true and that they go out with no claim of authority and that each seeker must test them with his own soul. Perhaps you and other newer members should read the first three months of postings to the list where the teaching was totally dedicated to laying the foundation of not trusting me without confirmation. Craig: "If JJ is right about everything, then we all can rejoice, for we have found the fountain of living waters!" JJ If I am right about everything and you believe it and follow the teachings without confirmation from within you have found nothing. The fountain of living waters is the Spirit of God within you, and guiding seekers to this discovery is at the core of my teachings. Craig, I will absolutely support anybody who questions JJ's veracity. What has become of us when we stop questioning? Is JJ Dewey beyond reproach? Are any of us? JJ I challenge you to find another teaching situation where there is more questioning (and answers given) than there is here. I probably spend about a third of my teaching time handling challenges. In fact I spend so much time that many complain to me that we spend too much time with the type of questioning you mentioned. Again I think you are underestimating the intelligence of many list members who accept most of my teachings. Just because they do not challenge me on a regular basis does not mean that they are not independent thinkers. Often times a person does not agree entirely and just wants to mull it around in their mind a while rather than overtly question. Take me for instance. I have been on Sterling's list for about a year and a half and have not questioned him once, through his medium, even though I often do not agree with him. I see no reason to interfere with his teaching objective. Even so questions and challenges are welcome here. Actually, I enjoy them. Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14665 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Aramaic Lord's Prayer Samu writes: "Try reading the Prayer in Aramaic, it sure is powerful!" Hi Samu You are right about the power. Even though I probably fractured the Aramaic terribly. I also wanted to comment that the part translated as "as we forgive those who trespass and sin against us" was also translated from the Aramaic by George Llamsa (I think that's his name) as "forgive us in the manner that we forgive others". I read this in the Edgar Cayce material years back and have used it when I say the Lord's Prayer. Thanks for sharing the url. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14666 From: Marylin Subject: Re: OT--Great Caesar's Ghost! Mark writes: "[keys-l] OT--Great Caesar's Ghost!" Aw, shucks, Mark. I was hoping you had a "funny" here. I have heard people use those words when they were amazed at something. And you got serious. Sorry, I just need a laugh. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14667 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Address It All Criag: I am not too proud to follow a higher intelligence. I have much to learn. The fountain of living waters might teach me all I need to know. Judes: You are right..the fount of living waters is all we need ...to be taught all we need to know..because it is the 'well of all knowledge' and is there for each and every..not just one..and then others follow. From what I have been able to glean from these waters with the help of JJ's writings and other\ list members and the Aquarian Gospel..this fountain and well is the Holy Spirt. I too..have questioned a path of drinking these waters alone without the aid of a teacher..as what is the need of a teacher or leader? Do I need inspiratation or discipline[which I lack]? The answer to this question [for me] was given by JJ in one of the earliest posts on the archives..which I read before coming on list and part of his class..and I pondered it quite intensely..as I knew it would be a significant decision point for me. JJ said that there is a point on the path where 'unity' is desired by the aspirant/student..and this longing for it means to join with others on the same path through soul communication/contact, common purpose, and direction. This FOR ME is why I am on this list and JJ's class and JJ has become a source [along with other sources-your writings too, Craig] for verification/confirmation after drinking of the waters. Only very recently have I begun to 'see' that JJ may have 'mastered' some of the trials/tribulations/tests/temptations along the path and may also be able to 'teach' me a thing or two along these lines too!! So..I have never seen JJ as my teacher as much as a source for verification until very recently. Love: Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14668 From: Lynn Subject: Re: Suppression Hi All, That is very interesting on the christ entity coming into Jesus the man. Here is some food for thought that is just a bit different. Jesus was born and conceived normally, he grew up learning earthly things that are needed to survive till he was about 30. Then he had a calling from the Creator of all things (God) to go into the wilderness and fast and pray. When he went into the wild for 40 days praying and fasting he became open to the higher powers then God bestowed upon him the power that he then was able to manifest. Which he did till they killed him. This may be what happened or not but I feel it is a very good possibility because he says if you do what I have done you can do the things I do. This implies that some other entity did not step into him, but the power of God was manifest in him through prayer and fasting, (sacrifice). I know from personal experience that fasting and praying out in the wilderness can greatly change ones attitude toward everything in a positive manner. Later, Lynn Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14669 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Address It All "Lovingly submitted for your rejection, Craig" Aw, com'on Craig. We've already been through this before. JJ admitted at the very beginning that he was writing the book as fiction. It's up to each reader to decide for her/himself whether to believe it or not. And we each have the "right of free will" to make our own decisions. If you chose to not believe it, that's quite alright with me. I just don't want to have to read any more silly argument about it. SHEESH ! ! ! ! Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14670 From: Marylin Subject: Re: RE: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) From John: http://www.interlog.com/~birkej/jes/aq/aquar001.htm John, this url wouldn't bring up the site to read the Aquarian Gospel. Possibly something amiss with the address. I checked my typing twice and all was correct. Would you try again? Thanks Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14671 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Into The New "The real teacher in service of mankind would not even mention let alone stress the relationship of the students with them as teacher. The real teacher only shows the way without ever prescribing specific tasks or works, much less number of hours of work a day, to be done by the students." "JJ's numbers 1 and 4 requirements seem reflective, his motive aside, of the characteristics of interest groups whose goal is not application of oneness principle to all humanity but separative personal power in the spiritual arena." "Why all of a sudden the soul or soul contact has disappeared in the work of the soul?" "Beware!" Paul.. He specifically mentioned soul contact there. He wants to form a group to do stuff. Whatever that stuff may be. If he gets people that agree with him, getting stuff done will be easier. He won't have to fight all the time with people. And the time asked for is probably to give people an idea of how much will be asked of them. He doesn't want people to join up if they can't spare the time to help out. I find that a fair thing to ask. He seems to be saying that it will take about 5 hours a week of our time if we join up. This way people don't drop off later because they were not informed of the time required. I prefer this to "we'll let you know". My time is very limited because of a large commute to work. It helps me to know what to expect, time wise, if I were to join this adventure. It seems to me the things he asked for are to make it easier for people to do the work. He has stated a number of time that he wishes to build a molecule. Perhaps this is the beginning stage of that work. Perhaps not. Whatever happens, people should remember that they have free will. If they offer to help and do not like what they were asked to do, I suspect the rest of us will hear about it. And they can chose not to do it. While I may not decide to participate in JJs little thingy, I don't see any problem with his requirements. And perhaps I am not the type of person he needs in this either. I dunno. The thing that's stopping me from applying at the moment is the time requirement, though I can probably fit in 5 hours/week. ;) I think you are overreacting Paul.. And what are you doing here anyway? Shouldn't you be disintegrating into the void right about now? ;) Travis Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14672 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Into The New Sherry: Certainly there are those who would taunt, disrupt, and discourage even the most sincere seekers, and that is part of what drives others away, and into "caves" to learn, in my opinion. Judes: This would certainly be my reason for seeking an enclave instead of resorting to returning to 'the wilderness'[lone-path]. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14673 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Works for me.. Did you try just clicking on it or cut-and-paste? I just clicked it and it worked. ;) Travis "http://www.interlog.com/~birkej/jes/aq/aquar001.htm" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14674 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) When I clicked on it, it came right up Marylin. Lets try it again. LOL http://www.interlog.com/~birkej/jes/aq/aquar001.htm Your Friend John Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14675 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Methodology JJ wrote: Even so questions and challenges are welcome here. Actually, I enjoy them. Judes: LOL..I can stop worrying about you now..and to the relief of many list members to putting up with Judes ...I felt you were 'sensitive' beyond the real truth of the matter.. I was probably projecting... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14676 From: "Joe Hanish" Subject: Hello everyone Hi everybody! I've been watching the list for a little while now, and just wanted to say hi to everyone, and introduce myself. My name is Joe Hanish, and I've been driven by matters of the spirit for about 3 years now. I've recently had some really life altering experiences, and from some reading, I think it may have been something like St. John's dark night of the soul, or a kundalini awakening that I wasn't quite ready for, or maybe they are almost the same thing, I don't know at this point. At any rate, I've just been looking for some help / answers as to what I'm going through, and you are all helping me quite a bit, and I really appreciate it. :) I've read "The Immortal", and I saw some startling, but possibly coincidental similarities in my own experience. I'm trying to write everything down that happened as best as I can, and if anyone is interested in helping a confused guy out a bit, I'd love to talk / email. Thanks so much for a wonderfully uplifting and intelligent list. You guys rock! :) Joe Hanish Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14677 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Darling Marylin, try the address once more. I picked it up the 1st time. Love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14678 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Address It All Travis Tabbal wrote: "I do not presume to speak for Glenys. However, for myself, I will say that this has been an ongoing thing with Chris. Paul did it for a while too. The problem some of us have with them is not that they question JJ. Some of US to that. We get upset because they constantly ask the same questions over and over again, never accepting that JJ has said his piece." You can speak for me whenever you like Travis :-) You are absolutely right. It is the going over old ground by the same old people that is tiresome, not the questioning of JJ which, I agree, is healthy and necessary at times. People don't have to like JJ's responses but constantly asking him the same questions about his motives doesn't serve any useful purpose. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- We do not listen and do not follow this voice within our own souls, and so we become a house divided against itself. We are pulled this way and that, and we are never certain of anything. ~ Ralph W. Trine Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14679 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: How many times? "You are absolutely right. It is the going over old ground by the same old people that is tiresome, not the questioning of JJ which, I agree, is healthy and necessary at times. "People don't have to like JJ's responses but constantly asking him the same questions about his motives doesn't serve any useful purpose. Love Glenys" Judes: And how many times have you said this same thing in response to them almost word-for-word above[Chris and Paul]? At least you ..keep doing it! Thanks..from the rest of us..that want to 'move on' to the greater mysteries. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14680 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Address It All Glenys Lowery wrote: "You can speak for me whenever you like Travis :-)" hehe.. too much responsibility for me Glenys.. Those shoes are too big for me to fill! Thanks though! Travis Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14681 From: RWBH Subject: [Fwd: OT: Reincarnated Jesus Strips Gears] This post is directed to Craig...but any helpful input would be welcome. I am part way thru reading Craig's book on the reappearance of Jesus Christ in the latter days. Because my Western/Christian foundation is the Mormon experience, it is exceptionally rewarding for me to have my understanding increased by Craig's valuable insights. Very little can truly shock me anymore, even though the idea of Jesus reappearing short of the 'in clouds of glory' is something I have to let stew awhile. However, I do have one 'objection' to the assertion that Jesus will reincarnate to fulfill this promised reappearance among men. It stems from the purely mechanical aspect of it all. Let's see if I can explain my problem. First, let those who may not share my own specific beliefs about Jesus consider my beliefs are what they are; and render any opinion within that context. IOW I don't want to particular debate fundamentals at this point. Okay.... I believe that Jesus was a living man, whoever else he was, and that he died from being crucified. Three days later (which by the way is Monday...not Sunday..do the math) he was literally raised from the dead i.e. his physical body reanimated and started to walk around again, appearing to the disciples in various examples. It is my understanding that Jesus then or soon thereafter had been 'raised from mortality unto immortality' ie. had obtained his 'resurrection body' i.e. his glorified body which we will all receive eventually via universal resurrection. So how can a resurrected body (and NOT the spiritual entity which normally can enter into various temporal physical incarnations) possibly enter into another body, a new baby I guess, and reincarnate as if it hadn't achieved a new glorified body? Craig...and I ask Craig because he wrote the book...as well as being someone I assume shares some of my own foundational beliefs here...isn't our resurrected body our glorified body....and how can we enter this body into a new physical corruptible body again? Since Jesus appeared to the disciples and ate with them, and doubling Thomas even reached into his wounds to prove to himself it was the same Jesus he knew before....and then the ascension was the witnessing of Jesus (in his glorified body) going literally up to higher dimensions... couldn't and wouldn't the reappearance of Jesus simply be this same Jesus again descended to earth....the exact same dude who appeared to doubting Thomas? It says when Jesus does appear to the Jews in Jerusalem during the time of its last destruction..they will see the nail prints in his hands and feet..and ask where they came from...and will be much sorrowed when he explains they were received in the house of this friends. If Jesus reincarnates, unless he has a very odd case of stigmata...he would have a body with no marks of his previous crucifixion. So...the glorified Jesus re-entering a baby body....and the new Jesus without nail prints are two things I just cannot program in trying to grasp the whole story you are presenting. Craig or anyone....little help? Thanks for posting your work, Craig, I am reading it with keen interest and have already found much new light in it. brian Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14682 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) "Paul was quiet clear this morning. Something unusual and out of character for him. Let me answer in this manner. Jesus Christ taught on three basic levels. He taught to the common people. Then he had an Inner Circle or intermediate class, that were capable of understanding more than the average person. Then he had the Inner Circle, the Apostles. Jesus didn't teach the outer circle what he taught the advanced, and intermediate class, and he didn't teach the intermediate class what he taught the Apostles. There were certain requirements to become a part of the Inner Groups. So I take Paul's attack on JJ this morning as an overt attack on Christ, and myself. "I also take it as an attack on my style of teaching because I have always told the Forum that there would be a time certain ones would be moved into a higher class, and given things the normal forum isn't given. These people will then begin new works of their own. In time, they be moved into an even higher class, and those from the basic class will take there place in the intermediate class. This is my style, and I make no apologies for it, nor will I ever. It was good enough for Christ, and it's certainly good enough for one of his students. "John The Seven Tests" I was questioning JJ and JJ alone based on his nos. 1 and 4 requirements in his post. I would like his point to point response, if he pleases, to each and every statement I made in my post. Any other points raised due to my questioning is irrelevant to my particular questioning. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14683 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Well I will certainly allow JJ to specifically address those critical points of your contention. In the mean time allow me to ask you several very specific questions Paul. I'm sure you don't agree with JJ on many things, and it's quite apparent that you don't resonate with the teachings and work of this list based on past experience with you. Your Philosophies are as far apart as daylight and dark. Specific Question # 1. Why do you choose to remain on this list under these circumstances. Specific Question # 2. Do you believe JJ Dewey is an Agent of the Dark Side leading the members of this list to its Doom. Specific Question # 3. Do you believe JJ Dewey is a fraud, or Charlatan. OK Paul, enough double talk, and endless insinuations. Let's call a Spade a Spade, and put the TRUTH out in the open. I'm sure you believe in Honesty. If this is what you believe then you have every right to believe so. No one should try to convince you differently, or tell you what to believe. Specific Question # 4. Be Honest Paul, why are you here? I would appreciate you candid response, with no double talk or beating around the bush, or word games. Thank you, JW Paul Yu wrote: "I was questioning JJ and JJ alone based on his nos. 1 and 4 requirements in his post. I would like his point to point response, if he pleases, to each and every statement I made in my post. Any other points raised due to my questioning is irrelevant to my particular questioning." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14684 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit To keysters: I have a lot of time on my hands this afternoon..so this post is for me to write down my thoughts and then to also share them with the list. I am not presuming that others do not already have a 'clarity' on these issues or even that others would agree with what I write here...and am open to suggestions on 'if' or 'where' I may be lacking in clarity. This is a continuation of the realization that the 'well' of the Source of All[what I call it] is, or may also be termed the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Breath. Where this is significant to me is in the area of better defining what the Holy Trinity is, what it is composed of, what are its dynamics, and its purpose. IF this 'living waters' is the Holy Spirit and IF the Holy Triune is indeed similar and correspondent to a 'primordial atom/molecule'..then the corresponding units would be: Father/Mother-androgynous-Singularity-neutral-neutron-purpose-power Son-male-Christ-Divine Love-positive-proton-love-actions-virtues Holy Spirit-female-Universal Mind-Divine Intelligence- negative-electron-light-form What is interesting [to me] is that Chris mentioned 'blasphemy'..which I countered with having no pertinence to me on my path. However...my understanding of biblical sources states [somewhere] that the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Laurence should know about this..as this is one of the main tenets within the 'Church of Christ' doctrines. Even though I give 'blasphemy' no pertinence now[probably due to the fear this evoked when younger]...this scripture and discussion of an unpardonable sin has always puzzled me. Why would an always forgiving God/Father/Source have an unpardonable sin mentioned at all? What is now coming clearer to me..is the 'blasphemy' or denial of this Holy Spirit is indeed part of the agenda of the 'Dark Brotherhood'. Maybe not denial...just non-acknowledgement and then therefore giving the credit for the 'works' of the Holy Spirit where it is not due or underplaying the inherent powers within this Spirit. Say...quantum mechanics..or the 'mind' of man and his omnipotence within the realms of form. So..the denial and degradation of the feminine energy on THIS plane could very well be a correspondent and reflective image of what exists on higher realms or behind the veil of deceptions. This is not a rah rah for the feminine energies as much as an observation that I feel warrants looking at. Also a lack of understanding this being/manifestation..the Holy Spirit..and its purpose..could handicap the lower levels from understanding the Triunal nature involved..and then reducing this to a merely dualistic relationship of God/Son/Christ..which although powerful..would be somewhat handicapped to evolve to a full glory until the Holy Spirit was engendered or empowered to be within the Trinity..so that all resources are used for 'becoming'. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14685 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...cont. Here is the scripture I mentioned in the last post. It makes a little more sense to me now..that I am clearer on who.what the Holy Spirit is: Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He[Jesus] said this because they were saying, "He was an evil spirit". New English version: "I tell you this: no sin, no slander, is beyond forgiveness for men; but whoever slanders the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.' He [Jesus] said this because they had declared that he was possessed by an unclean spirit." I am NOT bible-thumping or saying anyone here on this list is doing this..I am not even sure what it means yet..I just am starting to 'get' a little of what this Holy Spirt is and about..so please do not misinterpret my intentions for posting..and is only for those interested in pondering this Divine entity[Holy Spirit] and what it is or is not. As..I said this scripture has always bothered me somewhat. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14686 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Judy Reese asked: "...my understanding of biblical sources states [somewhere] that the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Laurence should know about this..as this is one of the main tenets within the 'Church of Christ' doctrines." Well, to start it is "Lawrence" with a "w", not a "u". :):) It has been a very long time since I have darkened the door of the Church of Christ (over 30 years at least!). But that is where I got my early dose of "hell and damnation" that turned me off from Christianity until less than a year ago. It was only the result of some very painful prodding (I see in retrospect) that got me back to that path again. But you are probably referring to: Matthew 12:31 (English-KJV) "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." I can't say that I understand this scripture for sure. Both my wife and I have puzzled over it, and from my conversations with other more or less standard Christians, a _lot_ of them are equally puzzled. I don't know. Maybe this is when a _really_ Dark Brother completely shuts off the spirit within him so that he need a couple aeons in a Black Hole for correction???? Quoting from JJ's post #164 (Black Holes): In each Solar System that has evolving self conscious life there are a small number of total failures. All of us have done some nasty things and have been very selfish in past lives but almost all of us are guided by pain back into the peaceful world of the soul. Nevertheless, there are a few who totally dedicate themselves to the dark side or the world of Self and become a full fledged Dark Brother "who knoweth he hath but a short time." ---- end quote Certainly that is a verse of scripture that I would also appreciate enlightenment on too. -:) lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14687 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) JW wrote: "Specific Question # 1. Why do you choose to remain on this list under these circumstances. "Specific Question # 2. Do you believe JJ Dewey is an Agent of the Dark Side leading the members of this list to its Doom. "Specific Question # 3. Do you believe JJ Dewey is a fraud, or Charlatan. "Specific Question # 4. Be Honest Paul, why are you here?" The kind of questions you ask, John, is characteristic of labeling, to be avoided completely. We are to confine ourselves to discussing and questioning the subject matter being raised or talked about. I would not label anyone, but I would ask why something as essential as soul or soul contact was missing in JJ's 'requirements' for world servers and why connection with JJ was the first requirement. These are important questions for those who might be thinking of committing 5 hours a week to do what the teacher will instruct them to do. Everyone, before making such a commitment, should ask questions like these. The most important element missing in JJ's post was the phrase 'soul contact'. Any spiritual- minded person would question in their mind why such an unforgivable miss. The answer has to come from none but JJ himself. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14688 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit LaWrence wrote: Well, to start it is "Lawrence" with a "w", not a "u". :):) Judes: Sorry..thanks for correcting me...just laziness to check the spelling..hope you were not offended by it. Yes..and how can we NOT do something when we don't even know what the something is?? LOL Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14689 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul Yu writes: "but I would ask why something as essential as soul or soul contact was missing in JJ's 'requirements' for world servers and why connection with JJ was the first requirement. These are important questions for those who might be thinking of committing 5 hours a week to do what the teacher will instruct them to do. Everyone, before making such a commitment, should ask questions like these." I cannot agree with where you are going with this Paul, for a number of reasons, but I will only mention this..almost every (if not every) esoteric school that accepts students has a questionnaire to fill out for prospective students, and students are selected to join. Even the Arcane School as a long examination for prospective students, and not everyone is guaranteed a spot in the school. I think esoteric schools have their own criteria for establishing their determination as to what level students are at as far as "soul contact". Yet, even at that, we are taught we cannot know anything about soul contact for others, and most of the time, we cannot even be sure about our own! "The most important element missing in JJ's post was the phrase 'soul contact'. Any spiritual- minded person would question in their mind why such an unforgivable miss. The answer has to come from none but JJ himself." perhaps he is not a baileyite? :-)! ..perhaps the term "soul connection" works for him?..:-). Part of being "group conscious" is to recognize the group we can best work with, and sometimes we have many different groups we can work with, on different levels. I felt JJ's posting was right on, and I knew right off the bat I would not request to join.. firstly, I am involved in my own groups, and can not scatter my energies (anymore than they already are!! :-)..secondly, I do not have five hours I am willing to give to another group effort, and thirdly, I am satisfied with the keys list for now. So, his posting saved me the time and energy to try to find out more about his endeavors, as it was succinct and informative. I am answering this, although you want an answer from JJ, because this is a discussion list, and I feel my contribution is acceptable. Globally, I think we are drawing in energies now that are shaking every foundation we have built up over the thousands of years, and perhaps it is not easy to accept the new ways which must come in, imo. Much love to you as always sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14690 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [Judes] Blasphemy Judes wrote: "I am NOT bible-thumping or saying anyone here on this list is doing this.. I am not even sure what it means yet.. I just am starting to 'get' a little of what this Holy Spirit is and about.. so please do not misinterpret my intentions for posting.. and is only for those interested in pondering this Divine entity[Holy Spirit] and what it is or is not. As.. I said this scripture has always bothered me somewhat." Judes Thank you Judy for running with the word Blasphemy..... This is a word which goes beyond the biblical references to it into the nature of religious belief itself. The consequences of blasphemous speech and behaviour is, I have found, linked to the very nature of the concept of survival for the individual.blasphemy From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary Main Entry: blas?phe?my Pronunciation: 'blas-f&-mE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -mies Date: 13th century 1 a : the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b : the act of claiming the attributes of deity 2 : irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable It is the second definition that I want to run with here, because the fear is very real within the cellular body (and within consciousness) of speaking out .. not so much against "God" but against "the established order". Throughout the history of Religion and The Church Institutrion (not only Catholic) the Instutionalised religion has various punishments for daring to question the established Doctrine and Dogma. The penalties for speaking out against "The Church" are translated by the institution as speaking out against "God" and the consequences have ranged from excommunication to a very painful death. The inquisition was a prime example of this .. as was the persecution of those who did not "toe the party line" Even within other non Christian Cultures, there are memories and records within the histories of these groups of the persecution of those who were later elevated to the status of "sainthood" ... the only blasphemy committed by these people was that they "found God" within themselves and not within the established ritual practice of the religious institution. History is full of the records of persecution of those who later were held up as icons. I asked the question, Judes, because in daring to "move beyond the doctrine" to the establishment of a "personal truth", the "stone wall" that I have found many face is the fear of the consequences of "going against the party line" In asking yourself a question .. and looking for a "soul contact" or "soul verification", the first and most immediate response has been, for many, the response which ensures survival and freedom from the charge of blasphemy ... not from the blasphemy of speaking out against the divine ... but the blasphemy of speaking out against the "definition of the divine" established by some person or institution. Thus, St John of the Cross, St Augustine, Rumi, Kabir .. just to mention a few were adjudged in their lifetime of being blasphemous by the very institutions that now hold them up as martyred saints. Even the one we call Jesus was martyred because he was, in his speech and deed considered to blaspheme against the established order of the time. ... that considered sacred or inviolable by the Pharisees ... It is only by overcoming this fear of the consequences of blasphemy and heresy .. which is very real in the physical body, that the inner truth beyond what you are told you should believe can become apparent. Until then, the seeker for truth will be limited, not by popularity, but by fear for their own survival ... and be subject to the influences of any teacher who uses the consequences of "sin" or rather "crime" as a basis of spiritual and emotional blackmail and manipulation for the establishment of power based on a band of followers rather than teaching the evolution of the individual. You see, Judes .. from my experience, society is afraid of those who may know their own selves .. beyond who they are told they are ... because people who know their own selves cannot be controlled .. they can only be excommunicated ... and that doesn't matter to them ... so history has recorded that they be killed off as an example to any who dare speak the truth of themselves ..... Our parents did that to us as children ... by denying us the right to speak the truth of what we saw, the right to express what we knew to be the truth ... the right to express our own thoughts, feelings and emotions and it is this fear, these emotions, this denial which is at the root of our own personal suffering , and the conflict we see in our relationship with other people. and with this line I have brought this subject right back "on topic" Thank you again for "running with it" Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14691 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul Yu wrote: "The most important element missing in JJ's post was the phrase 'soul contact'. Any spiritual-minded person would question in their mind why such an unforgivable miss. The answer has to come from none but JJ himself." Poor Paul....got his knickers in a twist because JJ didn't use a phrase he thought he should have. So now if a person doesn't question he isn't 'spiritually minded'. Not that Paul would ever contemplate labeling anyone. LOL Maybe JJ knew that anyone who felt soul connection with him would also have a measure of soul contact. Maybe it's evident for those who have ears to hear. Did Jesus or Buddha say to their followers 'Hey, anyone who has soul contact can join my group'. No, they didn't. Maybe these great bringers of light wouldn't have been spiritually minded enough for you either, Paul. Love Glenys PS I'm not surprised that you evaded JWK's questions as that has been typical of you since you joined the list. Why do you find it so difficult to be open, to share, to be transparent, Paul? You may not like JJ's responses but at least he does his best to be as open as possible when questioned. Why can you not extend the same courtesy? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord. - Bhagavad Gita Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14692 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul: The kind of questions you ask, John, is characteristic of labeling, to be avoided completely. We are to confine ourselves to discussing and questioning the subject matter being raised or talked about. Judes: This is a classic cop-out , Paul. I stated today my reasons for being on this list. How is that considered to be 'labeling'? I was straight-forth and honest. Some may not care if I am even ON the list one way or the other and some may wish I was not here at all. But I am..and so are you. I think John asked a fair question and I, for one, am curious..as I would not want to be on a discussion list where I disagreed from my soul with the teacher as much as you seem to. I know my input is pointless.as you will NOT answer this question..JJ has asked you many times since I have been here and you only give the double-talk reply on this. Should we just assume the reasons are obvious and go from there? The obvious reasons are that you wish to point out discrepancies to your 'philosophies' on spiritual matters. That is okay..JJ has said that he enjoys the ability to have a free forum and discuss truths in that type of environment. Why is it so hard for you to just be honest with us here..and answer the questions John asked? Are you enjoying the deception and 'disguise' of being a student like most of the list..is this a 'cover' that you wish to hide behind..as it gives you more power within the group..so that no one knows [especially newer people] where you are coming from? Do you enjoy the confusion it generates? What you call 'labeling' is what you are hiding behind now..which is 'a member of the list' and 'student'. So you have a 'label' or 'mask' that will not give us the true picture of your motives or agendas. Just give us the correct picture and you will not need a label. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14693 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: Reincarnated Jesus Strips Gears] brian, The best advice I could give you on the matter of a resurrected being incarnating, would be to forget all that your Mormonism has taught you, and begin building your knowledge base all over again. If this doctrine of Christ be true, then nothing else matters for the present. Brigham Young, in his Oct. 8, 1854 discourse (et el) claimed that Adam was a resurrected being when he came to earth. I think the problem with your reasoning is that we have been taught that earth life (incarnation & reincarnation) is undesireable, difficult, loathesome & something to be glad you're done with. On the contrary, this attitude just demonstrates how enculturated we have become with falsehood. Here we are with complete autonomy to do as we please, and most of us continually build ourselves into boxes of limiting false beliefs, guilt and a life that can't wait to be over. Life is for having fun! Have fun and look forward to coming back as many times as possible. The limitations we feel are self imposed by false belief systems we have inherited from a culture that has lost its true heritage. Life is meant to be fun, whatever structure one lives in. Keep the questions coming. Love, Craig brian - "This post is directed to Craig...but any helpful input would be welcome." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14694 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Chris I very much appreciate the time and wisdom you put into your reply to me and the topic..that I raised. Two points though: 1.) Jesu SAID it ..not a church or doctrinal code thing. 2.) My emphasis on bringing it up was to bring a possible clarity to definition of the Holy Spirit and what it is or is not...not the definition of blasphemy IOW..how does one blaspheme the Holy Spirit for Jesu's viewpoint not the Church-thing. Oh well..I try and try to have soul-to-soul conversations on this list and my fishing has very rarely brought the type of responses or engendered the type of discussions that I wish to garner. All I ever get is feed-back from you or Paul that seems to steer the conversation off the path to greater mysteries and unfoldment..or is rather condescending from both of you. The 'with-it' keysters do not seem to want to continue any topics I engender either. Well..I give up..this time it is not personal or anything..I just feel that I am talking to myself and no one is listening.........over and out for now..... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14695 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: Re: Methodology JJ, Underestimating the intelligence of your students would be a waste of my energy. I only assume that a student on your list is allowed freedom of expression. The strength of my words is more indicative of honesty than it is of accusation. You know that I side with no one and I call 'em like I see 'em. I have been open about the fact that anything but complete openness bothers me. To me it is a sign of deceit. I am not accusing you of lying, JJ. I have been loyal to structure before and it has always disappointed me. For the rest of my eternity, I will be loyal to truth only. I will defend no one for the sake of the man or woman, but for their true utterances only. Perhaps I missed out on an important formative stage of list development where many of you felt to become one together and formed a clique which lives to defend and perpetuate its own. I do not care to be girl friends with anybody. My purpose in joining your list was to discover if it warranted my interest. It has! Thank you very much. When I read your 4 numbered proposal, I had much the same reaction as Paul. I suppose, to be honest, this must means that I do not feel a soul connection with you, JJ. I see control as an issue and I believe I have discerned that, as good as motives may be, this is the beginning of more structure and less freedom. JJ - "(1) You feel a soul connection with me and sense an inner knowing about teachings I have presented and the direction I am pointing. "(2) You see yourself as totally dedicated to world service as opposed to serving the individual self. "(3) You feel impressed that you need to do more. "(4) You are willing to dedicate 5 hours a week to group work "If this rings a bell with you send me a personal e-mail as an application and you will be contacted. John - You're welcome to post this on your forum." Craig - Again, I'm not trying to make anybody feel bad here, I just feel as though most of you come from a common ancestry, where blood is your common bond, while I'm a Heinz 57 from another planet! Love, Craig Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14696 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [Judes] Blasphemy .. 2 Hello Judes .... I have noticed, perhaps to the contrary of your perception, that from your replies to comments that I have raised, your questioning has moved into a deeper desire, not only for understanding, but also to be understood Is this a fair observation ... because, perhaps, if I am correct in this, then what Judes intrinsically knows as her truth is starting to find a voice from under what she has been taught is all there is. Your questions are coming, as I perceive it, not from what I have told you is the truth, but from some space in you that is exploring possibilities that there is more to life than the box you have been placed in. I cannot teach you anything .. nor would I be so presumptuous as to try ... but maybe in what I write I can remind you of something which, on some level you already know ... and allow that knowing to re-awaken within you... Thus you ask questions which perhaps probe more deeply the essence of the being that is Judes ... and so remove the suppression that has been placed on personal integrity or wholeness for generations .... By removing the limitations that are placed on our knowing, we can release the limitations of beliefs which cause the repressions of emotions .. and allow the stagnant pool to flow once more with the life force of who we really are .. not what we have been defined we are ..... There is no condescension intended in any of what I write to you .... I once asked all of the questions you are asking .... and from many, met the same response. But then, there were one or two who saw where I was asking from .. and took the time to answer my questions ... and, yes, I initially reacted the same way to them as many on this list do to you and to me ..... you wrote: "1.) Jesu SAID it ..not a church or doctrinal code thing." The question I ask here is "who said that Jesu said it ..." is this doctrine .. dogma .. what we have been taught to believe ... and this is where, for myself, I have had to take "Jesu said" and translate it into a metaphor beyond the literal words ... and this is blasphemy against the institution." "2.) My emphasis on bringing it up was to bring a possible clarity to definition of the Holy Spirit and what it is or is not...not the definition of blasphemy" Which immediately refers back to the question I asked .. What is Holy .. who defines Holy .. and for what reason ... from many viewpoints I could consider that the term Holy is an institutional definition which means "that which you will not question" "IOW..how does one blaspheme the Holy Spirit for Jesu's viewpoint not the Church-thing." A beautiful line .. Judes .... From the perspective of what I have written to this list .. if the "Holy Spirit" is in act the "Life Breath" or the "Life Force" and if this is the intrinsic meaning behind Jesu's words, Then the essence of blasphemy from Jesu's viewpoint is the denial of this "Life Breath", this very "Life Force" .. this right of "Beingness". To take this one step further, in teaching this, Jesu went against the established order of the day .. the Pharisees ... and was found guilty of blasphemy against the institution ... The fact that the essence of his teaching lives .. albeit clouded or underneath literal doctrine and dogma .. is an illustration to us of the difference.... Within each of us, there is an essence of knowing ... there is a life force, there is a life breath. To blaspheme from Jesu's perspective (I feel and express in my words here) is to deny this life force, life breath ... this inner knowing and this truth ... and defile the "body as a church" .. our own human body into pools of stagnation and discontent. There are several sections within the Aquarian Gospel which propose this perspective .. I'll see if I can find them if you like because they helped me to a deeper understanding of this concept .. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14697 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul Yu: "but I would ask why something as essential as soul or soul contact was missing in JJ's 'requirements' for world servers and why connection with JJ was the first requirement. These are important questions for those who might be thinking of committing 5 hours a week to do what the teacher will instruct them to do. Everyone, before making such a commitment, should ask questions like these." Sherry: "The most important element missing in JJ's post was the phrase 'soul contact'. Any spiritual- minded person would question in their mind why such an unforgivable miss. The answer has to come from none but JJ himself." I appreciate what you are saying, Sherry. I have no quarrel with you. I am simply expecting a point to point answer from JJ himself. I am sure he can speak for himself. The questions I raised are relevant to the context of the discussions that have been going on for sometime in this list. I don't want to go beyond that context and confuse the issue by mixing it with topics irrelevant to my particular questions. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14698 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: Aramaic Lord's Prayer Hello to all. Samu: I could not access that URL. Could someone that could access it possibly copy and paste the text into e-mail? Blessings, Caramel "http://www.charweb.org/culture/churches/sapc/lordpray.htm" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14699 From: Ananda Subject: Daily Sharings 4/24/2000 Daily Sharing 4/24/2000 Every time we allow our mind/ego to chatter We are causing static in our True Channel to the Perfect Music from the Voice within us Let us quiet the mind so that we can clear the Channel that plays the most beautiful sounds through words that bring us to Heaven Now I Love you Dearly! Ananda Rev. Jo Ann "Ananda" Polito Author - "Spirit Speaks to my Heart" a book on Channeled writings Photographer Personal Spiritual Counselor/Mentor - Intuitive Healer - Reiki Master - Teacher/workshop facilitator - "A Course in Miracles" - "Metaphoric Awareness(c)" - "Heaven's Formula(c)" Distributor for "Herbal Life" Write Ananda at: Ananda@on.aibn.com to book a session or a workshop - Sessions are In person, phone, ICQ, mIRC or AOL Messenger. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14700 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: [OT] The "Real" Petra Brian says, "Hey...Petra is lookin' good! Very realistic look to her now. I'm wondering...do you have a palette of facial qualities sort of like the police sketch artist?" Yes Brian, I had to adjust dozens of parameters, just to create Petra's face. Every part of the figure has many adjustment that can be made. With practice, You could make a model of anyone. And then there is the feature that lets you customize colors, whew. I learn something new with each new illustration I make. Oh, and if you want to make your own "dream girl", the software is called Poser 4. And Brian, I just knew you would like the new Petra, but she is not free to go out to dinner and a movie :)(but maybe we can draw you and have you meet in NJ, if you have a suggestion for a script ) I have set up the writing part so that many of my Keyster friends can add chapters or segments and I invite all to join in. Between keeping up with all my e-mail, working on archives and creating the comic, working 9 to 5 and being a single parent, as much as I'd like to volunteer for JJ's latest project, there are only 24 hours in a day (more in a NJ day). So, at least until the Neanderthin bucks start rolling in, I'll have to let others get involved with the new projects. Love, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14701 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Judy says, All I ever get is feed-back from you or Paul that seems to steer the conversation off the path to greater mysteries and unfoldment..or is rather condescending from both of you. The 'with-it' keysters do not seem to want to continue any topics I engender either. Well..I give up..this time it is not personal or anything..I just feel that I am talking to myself and no one is listening.........over and out for now..... Rick, I downloaded the days list mail at 7 pm and then went off line and read all, leaving the mail program open and reading whenever I wasn't doing dad stuff, around the house. It took until 11 pm to get to the last post, more than 80 of them and darn few on topic. There already aren't enough hours in the day, to do all I want. If there are certain individuals, on this list, that are trying to disrupt it, they are certainly doing a good job of it. One post from them and the whole list goes off topic for 100 or more posts. I have been as patient and forgiving with the disruptions as I have been with my ex (and look where that got me), but enough is enough. If anybody is not here for the reasons given at Spiritweb, to learn and spread JJ's teachings, then they need to either quit posting or quit the list. This is the only warning I'm going to give. From now on, I'm going to begin exercising my exclusive rights and responsibilities, as list operator, to make this list better. If you should suddenly stop receiving list mail or you don't see posts from certain people anymore, you won't need any soul contact to figure out that Rick's been swinging his ax. It's a tough job, but somebody has got to do it. Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14702 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy .. 2 Christopher Wynter writes: "Hello Judes .... I have noticed, perhaps to the contrary of your perception, that from your replies to comments that I have raised, your questioning has moved into a deeper desire, not only for understanding, but also to be understood ..." Judes: To express what I am trying to convey will take a lot of words...but I will try to make it short as possible..and bypass the fear of humiliation, ridicule, or regret for even mentioning it..as I may gain clarity and feel foolish after...BUT what the 'hay'...here goes.....short version. This is really more on the lines of a revelation that I feel 'get' on the Holy Spirit after pondering 'it' now for 2-3 days and through discussions here. I 'feel' that: 1.) The Holy Spirit is female/negative energy and is esoterically described in ancient writings as the Goddess energy. 2.) The Truinal paradigm or primordial atom/molecule is reflected in ALL life and patterns and realms and is of utmost importance as it is the blue-print for the entire cosmos and life. 3.) The neutron-proton-electron dynamic is the major underlying dynamic 4.) The positive and negative are two equal energies in importance. 5.) The Sacred Marriage is talking about the 'union' of these two equally significant forces....Christ and Holy Spirit. The important part to me: The significance of the 'blasphemy' scripture is only as a trigger to help me see the outright slander of this paradigm within the lower realms[earth plane] and therefore correspondingly to the higher realms within the Dark Brotherhood. I do not know if it is unpardonable or even a 'sin'???...but it is prevalent and real that the feminine is degraded and ....I believe the role and works of the Holy Spirit are down-graded and defiled...by the very Church-people you are talking about, Chris. And how this is defiled..is by lack of acknowledgement of 'it' and the lack of understanding of 'it' and what 'it' is and what 'its' role is in the Sacred Marriage. This [to me] is of major importance in understanding if not the dynamics of the entire cosmos..but may be literally a major 'key' to the doorway of true wisdom. So..to me it is significant..now tomorrow..I will feel really embarrassed for mention it here..and JJ will have a post saying something that totally puts down my theory.. I am not saying it is right...and I may be missing some major pieces... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14703 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul Yu wrote: "The kind of questions you ask, John, is characteristic of labeling, to be avoided completely. We are to confine ourselves to discussing and questioning the subject matter being raised or talked about. I would not label anyone," *snip* Paul, you say labeling is to be avoided completely, but what you are doing here is labeling John as someone who would label you just because he asks you simple, straightforward and fair questions. Come on, 2 of the questions can be answered with a yes or no! Can you give John simple, straightforward and fair answers in return? It would take you much less time to answer JWK's questions than to answer to all this mail asking you *why* you won't answer them. With love and respect, Samu_______________ Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-24/14704 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Paul Yu wrote: "I appreciate what you are saying, Sherry. I have no quarrel with you. I am simply expecting a point to point answer from JJ himself." Judes: I think there is a policy on this list, Sherry, that ALL posts are OPEN to discussion and comments. This was out of line for Paul to even say this to you..as your comments were very worthwhile and relevant. And they were on topic to what is being questioned by Paul..even though later in his post he said they were not?? Of course, JJ may answer or respond..he may not..that is up to JJ...but please do not let Paul deter you from posting comments on any post here. Love: Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14705 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy - OT OT OT Rick Audette wrote: "This is the only warning I'm going to give. From now on, I'm going to begin exercising my exclusive rights and responsibilities, as list operator, to make this list better. If you should suddenly stop receiving list mail or you don't see posts from certain people anymore, you won't need any soul contact to figure out that Rick's been swinging his ax." Ohhhhhh, Ricky!! You're so sexy when you go all macho on us!!! Love Submissive Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord. - Bhagavad Gita Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14706 From: RWBH Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Christopher Wynter wrote: "It is the second definition that I want to run with here, because the fear is very real within the cellular body (and within consciousness) of speaking out .. not so much against "God" but against "the established order". "Throughout the history of Religion and The Church Institution (not only Catholic) the Institutionalised religion has various punishments for daring to question the established Doctrine and Dogma." Can you name one organized thought system i.e. Catholicism, Communism, Capitalism, Ecoism that does not basically operate like this? It's not the nature of religion; it's the nature of collective schools of thought of most types. You have to toe the 'party line' in any party...or eventually...the party system breaks down. I do not mean to defend any particular party...but nor do I think it reasonable or accurate to single out religions for behaving in this manner. For example...how would you feel about standing up amongst your peers and proclaiming that Darwinian Evolution theory is at best only that, a theory; and that is has never been proven and there are lots of cases of fraudulent 'evidence' that is still in the active textbooks on the subject? Or just say it is outright bullshit. Is the scientific community any different...and usually....on much less solid ground? So picking on religion in this area is a rather slanted view of things. "The penalties for speaking out against "The Church" are translated by the institution as speaking out against "God" and the consequences have ranged from excommunication to a very painful death. The inquisition was a prime example of this .. as was the persecution of those who did not "toe the party line" What would happen to a provocatively loud believer in Creationism over Evolution in a major university faculty??? Science has its Popes and canon and dogma and fiery stakes as well. "Even within other non Christian Cultures, there are memories and records within the histories of these groups of the persecution of those who were later elevated to the status of "sainthood" ... the only blasphemy committed by these people was that they "found God" within themselves and not within the established ritual practice of the religious institution." Just by watching either of last year's Joan of Arc movies, one learns a quick lesson that the Catholic Church is and was a totally political and fraudulent organizaiton. I'm sorry you seem to have fallen so deeply under its shadow in your life and world view; and you make me so glad I have never been the least bit Catholic; but nevertheless, I would expect you to see through the sham at a relatively early level of one's search for truth. What else would you expect from the Whore that sits on the seven hills? What do you think the purpose of the Church IS...in the ultimate view of things....if not to corrupt and pervert and eliminate the truth of the Christ incarnation and whatever legitimate following sprang from it? Why do you go on and on and on beating up on this papal straw dog anyhow? Of course Catholicism is a crock. But getting you to throw out the baby with the bathwater is the essential ploy; and you seem to have taken all three barbs. brian Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14707 From: RWBH Subject: Re: Reincarnated Jesus Strips Gears] I'm afraid I can't agree with you when you recommend this earth life as fun city. I have personally experienced far too much injustice and soul wrenching disappointment and sheer pain to consider an earth incarnation a trip to Tommy's Holiday Camp. No Mormon doctrine ever taught me that life or reincarnation was a bad deal; life has taught me that life can be pretty damn stupid and painful. I go to work every week after week...and sometimes its hard and boring and well...work...but I enjoy other people....I enjoy my time as well....but after working 24 of 38 hours, I am awfully glad to come home, relax, and return to my own enjoyable state. I view this as a comparable thing to living my life: it's been awfully hard and difficult in some ways; yet also fun and enjoyable for sure as you suggest. But even now at age 50...I see old age and death slowly coming as inevitable...and it seems like such a merciful plan, this limited engagement lifetime. I simply hate living in a world where I can get screwed on large and small scales..and have to stomach and bear it all my life...and look forward to entering a realm where (at least I believe) things will be balanced and good will be rewarded and evil will be, if not punished, at least banished from my experience. One of the lines from scripture I have always found most easy to understand is where whoever talks about being a pilgrim on this earth: ich bin outlander. I do not really feel that this world is my home; nor the way most people act and their values to be at all synonomous with my own; I cannot comprehend most people at all. But hey....that's me lol. I can't throw out 'everything Mormonism ever taught me' because the only things of it I have accepted are the things I have had shown or proven to me; or relate to my own personal experiences. I have heard you say recently that you have never received any confirmation of any of the truths you were taught in Mormonism...something to that effect. I have to say quite the opposite: I have had many of the things I have learned from the Mormon doctrines confirmed and experienced to my own conviction. So we can say that we each stick to a position on these matters consistent with our own experiences, or lack of them. However, my original problem still persists: I don't understand how a resurrected body can incarnate again...since to me the incarnation process is a spirit entering a body. `I can't understand how a glorious being like God could enter a mere human body either, even the first time...so my search is more for understanding of a mechanical nature more than a crisis of faith lol.. I like fun..but I find I enjoy seriousness more quite often. Could it be moon conjunct saturn? Or maybe I'm just a born partypooper... I certainly hope you have lots of fun, if that is what you most enjoy or seek. brian Craig Tholson wrote: "brian, The best advice I could give you on the matter of a resurrected being incarnating, would be to forget all that your Mormonism has taught you, and begin building your knowledge base all over again. If this doctrine of Christ be true, then nothing else matters for the present. "Brigham Young, in his Oct. 8, 1854 discourse (et el) claimed that Adam was a resurrected being when he came to earth. I think the problem with your reasoning is that we have been taught that earth life (incarnation & reincarnation) is undesireable, difficult, loathesome & something to be glad you're done with. On the contrary, this attitude just demonstrates how enculturated we have become with falsehood. Here we are with complete autonomy to do as we please, and most of us continually build ourselves into boxes of limiting false beliefs, guilt and a life that can't wait to be over. "Life is for having fun! Have fun and look forward to coming back as many times as possible. The limitations we feel are self imposed by false belief systems we have inherited from a culture that has lost its true heritage. Life is meant to be fun, whatever structure one lives in. "Keep the questions coming." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14708 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Molecular Relationship Document I have compiled JJ's writings on the Molecular Relationship (including the accompanying diagrams posted on his website) into a Word document. If anyone wants a copy, just email me privately (but be warned, it's 150 pages). Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord. - Bhagavad Gita Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14709 From: J J Dewey Subject The Work Paul writes: The real teacher in service of mankind would not even mention let alone stress the relationship of the students with them as teacher. JJ Since you're requested several times I suppose I should answer you here. Interesting that you should judge me to not be a real teacher. I wonder if you consider yourself as the real one. Let's see, what did I stress that concerns you so? It must be criteria number one which reads: (1) You feel a soul connection with me and sense an inner knowing about teachings I have presented and the direction I am pointing. I wish to do spiritual work with those who are able to feel soul energy flowing between us so we can both see through the eyes of the soul together. In my work for a living I also prefer to work with those that are in harmony with me rather than back biters. In marriage I desire a companion that sees through the same eyes of the soul as I do. Now would I have to work and be married to confrontational people just to put your mind at ease here? Are you trying to dictate to me who I may or may not have as my close associates? To find evil in people feeling or seeking a soul connection to one another is an amazing thing. Paul The real teacher only shows the way without ever prescribing specific tasks or works... JJ I guess Jesus and other Masters were not real teachers: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Jesus gave his students a number of specific tasks and here he describes his relationship to them as being with them unto the end of the world (age-Greek). Paul ....much less number of hours of work a day, to be done by the students. JJ You are apparently referring to criteria 4 which reads: "You are willing to dedicate 5 hours a week to group work." If you are going to work together with someone you need a certain amount of time available. There's no mention here of the number of hours per day expected but this statement was meant as a guideline so members of the group could assess whether their situation warrants participation. How they use their time will be up to them, but all work of value does take time in this reality. Paul JJ's numbers 1 and 4 requirements seem reflective, his motive aside, of the characteristics of interest groups whose goal is not application of oneness principle to all humanity but separative personal power in the spiritual arena. JJ "Separative personal power?" Pretty judgmental words there Paul. I'm sure there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise so I will offer you and others an invitation. Go within and communion with your soul and link to my soul and discern through the soul my real intentions. If you will do this, you will discover that I am not after personal separative power, but only for power to serve and share what I have been given. It is too bad that we live in a society that has so many who are after personal power that when one comes forward to share asking nothing in return that he is immediately suspected of some sinister motive. There are people in this world who do desire to give and to help and I am happy to say that I am not alone on this list. I am delighted to find others with similar desire to my own. Paul: Why all of a sudden the soul or soul contact has disappeared in the work of the soul? JJ The soul to soul contact is just beginning. There are vistas of communion and intensity of joy and oneness on the path ahead that few have dreamed of. Paul Beware! JJ BE AWARE - listen to the inner voice and the two will see as one. Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14710 From: J J Dewey Subject: Choosing Life or Death Brian asks about the resurrection in relation to reincarnation. If Jesus or a Master overcomes death and supposedly has an immortal body how can he be born again in a new body? Is it possible that Jesus or the Christ could be reincarnated? First let me quote to you a scripture that refers to celestial beings who have overcome death. It states: "Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death..." D&C 76:59 Thus if a person becomes a master, all things are his. He can choose life or death. If a master can choose death then his body is only as permanent as he desires it to be. There are two main stages in the overcoming of physical death. The first is the obtaining of the power to rejuvenate the body for as long as service in the physical world is required. This was obtained by Moses for instance. During the forty years in the wilderness living conditions were so harsh that all died but a handful. At the end of this period Moses was still vigorous because he obtained the power from God to rejuvenate his body. Finally, when his mission was accomplished he let his body go the way of all flesh. The second major state is restoration and is referred to in the scriptures as the "better resurrection." Jesus was the only one in recorded history to demonstrate this. When the power of restoration is acquired the adept's body can be destroyed and he can restore it to pristine condition. He can also restore or resurrect any body from a past life for the memory of all his past and the patterns thereof are recorded in his physical permanent atom. If the high initiate decides he wants to incarnate as a regular human again he can do it several different ways depending on his evolution. If he is in a current body and wants to preserve it he can place the body in state in a secure location and then leave it and enter the body of a new baby or participate in an overshadowing where another body is shared. The second method is to fold up his physical body within the parent vibration of the spirit and then enter again into a new incarnation. In this case his new body will be his vehicle of manifestation for some time to come. True immortality is in the spiritual body and not the physical as the Mormons believe. Paul made a reference to this : I Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. When one travels to kingdoms above the physical he does not go there as a physical being. When Jesus walked through the walls to meet the apostles what body was he in as he passed through the wall? It was not the physical for the physical body in its present condition cannot pass through a wall. When a Master passes through a wall or to other worlds he folds his physical up in the spiritual. One could say it is a little like deep sea diving. When you come up out of the water you no longer need the diving suit. You take it off and only use it again when you want to make another plunge. Hope this gives you food for thought. Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14711 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Christopher Wynter wrote: CW: ...in daring to "move beyond the doctrine" to the establishment of a "personal truth", the "stone wall" that I have found many face is the fear of the consequences of "going against the party line" LK: Indeed, next to public speaking, there are few things people are more afraid of than being singled out as thinking differently from their peers (though they may be in what appears to be a "rebellious" group). CW: .. from my experience, society is afraid of those who may know their own selves .. beyond who they are told they are ... because people who know their own selves cannot be controlled ... LK: Yes. And those who are afraid to question the "party line" especially hate those who aren't, those few who are not controlled by group thought (the beast). If there is one thing I am proud of is that my beliefs -- whatever they have been -- have been mine because I chose them, and not because they were popular. CW: Our parents did that to us as children ... by denying us the right to speak the truth of what we saw, the right to express what we knew to be the truth ...the right to express our own thoughts, feelings and emotions and it is this fear, these emotions, this denial which is at the root of our own personal suffering , and the conflict we see in our relationship with other people. LK: For you maybe. I was never denied the right to express my views. Generally they were ridiculed but I was never denied a right to express them. In particular I was ridiculed for holding extreme, non-compromising views (and not being practical, for example). I have altered many of those views, but not the practice of being an extremist. :) About an idea I must either be hot or cold. As to suffering, in this life most of mine has been my own fault due to separativeness, and separation from God. lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14712 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Judy Reese: Oh well..I try and try to have soul-to-soul conversations on this list and my fishing has very rarely brought the type of responses or engendered the type of discussions that I wish to garner. LK: I know what you mean. Often I have asked questions that I thought were important to me and didn't get answers. I liked your question, by the way. I don't know the answer, but if it helps, rest assured you are not the only person mystified by that statement of Jesus. lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14713 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Thanks John. I had just finished editing about 60 posts so maybe my eyes weren't seeing straight. It came up today just fine and I copied/pasted it into word for my spare time reading. Wow, 115 pages. That'll keep me busy for a short. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14714 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Teaching Methods (Agenda's) Judes writes: "..but please do not let Paul deter you from posting comments on any post here." Dear Judes: Paul and I have been good friends for a long time now, and are on many lists together. I know he did not at all mean to insinuate I was to keep quiet, he was just letting me know we weren't taking this to a personality battle, is all. I have great respect for Paul and his writings, however, there will never be another day in my life where I can be silenced by anyone..:-). I've come too far for that, and believe too strongly in women's rights not to defend my God-given rights to be considered an equal.. now to convince the rest of the world! :-). Much Love As Always Sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14715 From: Sherry Subject: Re: Reincarnated Jesus Strips Gears] RWBH writes: "But even now at age 50...I see old age and death slowly coming as inevitable...and it seems like such a merciful plan, this limited engagement lifetime. I simply hate living in a world where I can get screwed on large and small scales..and have to stomach and bear it all my life...and look forward to entering a realm where (at least I believe) things will be balanced and good will be rewarded and evil will be, if not punished, at least banished from my experience." Dear Brian: I loved reading your post, but I must ask (and dont let this depress you too much)..where did you get the idea the "work" stops when we return home? LLOLOLOL... I love the earth plane, all of it..its a vacation from the real work, I am convinced of that!...(Must be my moon in sag thing..all the worlds a playground to me!).. Supposedly, this is where we really have free will, can really exercise freedom to choose, whereas on the other planes, there is not so much the need for the kind of free will we have here on earth, and that is partly why earth is considered the Great School...now that is a theory I have read, and believe in..:-). So I am just saying, change your thinking, and you change your life..if you see this lifetime as an opportunity to learn, and decide to have fun learning, whatever it is, perhaps it will not seem so much a drudgery...?...That does not mean we have to accept conditions as they are, it means we are able to make changes as we see fit. This physical plane is really neat once you get the hang of it..!!! LOLOLOLOL... Much love Sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14716 From: Sherry Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy .. 2 Judes writes: "..the significance of the 'blasphemy' scripture is only as a trigger to help me see the outright slander of.." Speaking of scripture, and the Trinity, I thought this was interesting: Quote of the Day (for Apr 25): Whether the early Fathers of the Church knew the esoteric meaning of the Hebrew (Old) Testament, or whether only a few of them were aware of it, while the others remained ignorant of the secret, is for posterity to decide. One thing is certain, at any rate. As the esotericism of the New Testament agrees perfectly with that of the Hebrew Mosaic Books; and since, at the same time, a number of purely Egyptian symbols and pagan dogmas in general-the Trinity for example- have been copied by, and incorporated into, the Synoptics and St. John, it becomes evident that the identity of those symbols was known to the writers of the New Testament, whoever they were. -- Secret Doctrine Vol I page 384. By Helena Blavatsky, 1888. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14717 From: Sherry Subject: Re: [Judes] Blasphemy Rick writes: "if you should suddenly stop receiving list mail or you don't see posts from certain people anymore, you won't need any soul contact to figure out that Rick's been swinging his ax." ROFLMAO!!! This is the funniest thing I have read all week...a new definition of soul contact...getting the ax!!!! (Would that be similar to getting a two by four up the side of the head?...!! that's what we call a wake-up call!!)) LOLOLOLOLOL... good for you for taking control of the list. While I am not in favor of censorship, at times, it is often best to say to others..sure we can be friends..from a distance..now hit the road!! LOLOL love sherry Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14718 From: Paul Yu Subject: Soul connection Hi everyone, All souls are masters in their own right and are thus equal in relation to each other, and all souls are connected and one. Particular connections among souls are only possible on the basis of this universal connection of all souls in the oversoul. Any other connection is personality connection and not soul connection. Teacher-student relationship is non-existent among souls. It only exists among personalities. The one who is ideally more spiritually advanced in every way is regarded as teacher by those who believe themselves to be spiritually inferior to the teacher. A person learns from another because they feel they lack what the teacher can offer. They depend on the teacher for information and supposedly a good model of behavior as well. The connection between a student and a teacher is not a connection between two equals. Personality connection is based on the illusion, however real to the sense perception, that the student is separate from, and inferior to, the teacher, not knowing that they are soul and not personality and as soul they are masters and equal to the soul whose personality claims to be a teacher to their personality. If one stressed the fact that some personalities do have more knowledge and whatnot and can thus be referred to as teachers, that is fine. But that is just a phenomenon in physical life appearing real to those who didn't see the one reality in substance. Beware of what kind of connection is required to be a true server (as soul and not as personality) of mankind. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14719 From: RWBH Subject: Re: Choosing Life or Death Thanks, it does give me something to ponder. I would say, however, that a glorified body (resurrected body?) becomes a spiritual body. "The corruptible has put on incorruption". brian J J Dewey wrote: "True immortality is in the spiritual body and not the physical as the Mormons believe. "Paul made a reference to this: I Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. "When one travels to kingdoms above the physical he does not go there as a physical being. When Jesus walked through the walls to meet the apostles what body was he in as he passed through the wall? It was not the physical for the physical body in its present condition cannot pass through a wall. When a Master passes through a wall or to other worlds he folds his physical up in the spiritual. One could say it is a little like deep sea diving. When you come up out of the water you no longer need the diving suit. You take it off and only use it again when you want to make another plunge. "Hope this gives you food for thought." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14720 From: RWBH Subject: Re: Reincarnated Jesus Strips Gears] If THIS is the good stuff....now I am depressed lol! I cannot disagree more. "Those who are given liberty to act freely in heaven are nailed on the earth; Those who are free to act as they choose on the earth will be nailed in the heavens." - Hazrat Inayit Khan Earth life is a great opportunity for growing and learning...and experiencing things you could not experience elsewhere; so it's a good thing bottom line, I don't say it isn't. I was giving my own take on Craig's assertion that life was for having fun. Frankly, I never want to live on a planet EVER AGAIN where you need money just to live. As far as I'm concerned, a world run on money reduced most people's lives to dogs. brian Sherry wrote: "Dear Brian: I loved reading your post, but I must ask (and dont let this depress you too much)..where did you get the idea the "work" stops when we return home?" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14721 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: The Work Paul wrote: "The real teacher only shows the way without ever prescribing specific tasks or works..." JJ "I guess Jesus and other Masters were not real teachers: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. "Jesus gave his students a number of specific tasks and here he describes his relationship to them as being with them unto the end of the world (age-Greek)." Paul '....much less number of hours of work a day, to be done by the students." JJ "You are apparently referring to criteria 4 which reads: "You are willing to dedicate 5 hours a week to group work." "If you are going to work together with someone you need a certain amount of time available. There's no mention here of the number of hours per day expected but this statement was meant as a guideline so members of the group could assess whether their situation warrants participation. How they use their time will be up to them, but all work of value does take time in this reality." Paul Thanks for your response, JJ. I inadvertently wrote 5 hours a 'day' instead of a 'week'. I apologize for that. I sent in a post on soul connection before reading your post. Take that as my response to your post except the point you brought up about the authoritative teaching of the Christ. The Christ, the master, was speaking as embodiment or representative of christ consciousness. I don't think anyone among us would assume that position the way the Christ did when speaking to others. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14722 From: RWBH Subject: [Fwd: Playground Earth] In response to moon sadge Sherry saying the world is a playground to her... Yes, it is a playground. Once you pay somebody five bucks just to get in. And then there's the child being molested over there in the corner by the slide. Who is slightly better off than the sixty-seven kids who starved to death over by the swings. Over in the other corner is some whiny American kids wearin' baggy pants and complaining about their five hundred dollar bikes. By the gate is a garbage where their aborted little sisters are rotting and gathering flies. Sure life is a playground....but you would have to be a sadge horsey wearing awful big blinders, wouldn't you, not to notice it's built on a very recent garbage dump?? brian Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-25/14723 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Soul co