2000 - WEEK 15 Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13901 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Voiding the Void Loving greetings to One and All, Just noticed that this rather brilliant post got no response on the list... I could not ignor its questioning... Paul Yu: It is an indisputable fact that we all live in dualities. No proof is needed to demonstrate this fact. The question is: Are we to aspire to oneness and beyond, which is void, or remain in dualities? The bottomless pit is where duality ends up if persisting in mental supremacy. I don't see anyone on the list theoretically upholding such a position since soul contact is maintained as the way to truth. Where would one apply the bottomless pit in this discussion? Zia: I just love this way of questioning Paul, because we are all striving to understand and thus to live oneness... absolutely... and funnily enough... supposedly the only place oneness exists... is the void?? Geeeesh... perhaps then when we touch the void, we 'reconnect' to all that is... we gain a 'different' perspective, that allows us to see the oneness of all things, even while then 'supposedly' living in duality. Since duality is a concept, and oneness is a concept... it is vital which concept we choose to incorporate and thus demonstrate in our life. Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13902 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Dumping a 7 year old into The Bottomless Pit Loving greetings to One and All, Christopher Wynter: "the gaul" hmmmm ... a french connection? 'But I do care when you object by attacking JJ and then get precious when the same treatment is meted out to you." now ... from my perspective, Zia says ... xyz ... and this is Zia's problem ... Why does everyone else have to make this their problem .... and then project onto JJ that maybe JJ needs defending ... If JJ needs defence, then that is his problem ... why does everybody else suggest that maybe JJ has a problem...? and make this their problem? snipped... Christopher you always have a wonderful way of looking and expressing and understanding human nature... so that we may catch a glimpse of the divine in all of us, and identify with that. To me it is so much an identity issue... personality or spirit... what is my identity... and from what perspective am I thus observing... it is as though personality is the clothing we put on to be acceptable here... hiding the spirit, that which we are and truly know to be true. Being able to walk the spirit, true to spirit... ahhhh Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13903 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re:(OT) about the turmoil on the list:Glenys TheTripleGoddess wrote: "Don't want another witch hunt going down in such a nice place..." I think most of us here would quite like witches as in many respects, they carry the ancient wisdoms that so many have lost. No.........it's those bloody JJ'ites we're trying to stamp out here! LOL On another subject, Zia and I have been talking a bit about humour today and I have just come across a quote by the Tibetan on the need for humour, particularly with respect to oneself. I thought I'd share it with any who are interested. It's just one particular Master's opinion so please, if anyone wants to write me a pious reply saying that they do not need to consider anyone else's teachings as they can tap into the wisdom of the universe and their own hearts, navels etc etc, there's no need. Just delete now :-) Here goes: 'Those who stand on the inner side, and study the work of the world aspirants today, see an almost pitiful distress of individual deficiency, a sustained and strenuous effort on their part to 'make themselves what they ought to be' and yet, at the same time a distressing lack of proportion, and no sense of humour whatsoever. I urge upon you to cultivate both these qualities. Do not take yourself so seriously, and you will find yourself for freer and more potent work. Take the Plan seriously and the call to serve, but waste not time in constant self-analysis....... and .......... There are two things that every disciple must some day learn, my brother. One is the ability to 'sit light in the saddle' (Glenys here: do you think John Wayne could have been DK?) and the other is to develop a sense of humour, a real (not forced) capacity to laugh *at oneself* and *with* the world (Glenys: His emphasis, not mine). This is one of the compensations which comes to those who can succeed in working in the light upon the mental plane....' So folks, it's time to have a laugh .... and get back in the saddle again ;-)) (I wonder if that phrase has the similar connotations elsewhere as it does in NZ) Love Giddyup Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I can usually judge a fellow by what he laughs at. - Wilson Mizner Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13904 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Dualities in Bottomless Pit: Paul Loving greetings to One and All, Zia: "That's what I thought Paul, and then afterwards I considered that there are single pole magnets... and wondered about that. Thank you." Paul Yu: "If one of the two poles is believed to be separate from the other pole it becomes a single pole magnet. When reaching its limits with all its attraction and accumulation it goes way up on the scale causing unsustainable imbalance otherwise known as polarization. Then the time is ripe for neutralization and balance. 'Separation has become the process through which the 'lump of the magnetic metal' attracts both poles into itself in perfect harmony and oneness." Zia: Thank you for clearly assisting me to see all aspects ... explains polarity beautifully as well. That time is certainly ripe!! Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13905 From: Diane Linen Subject: Magnetic Poles and Confusions Thereof: Dualities in Bottomless Pit: This is an article by Dr. William Philpott that explains the current terminology used by many of us who use magnets for health improvement. In our terminology, the north magnetic pole is in the north - near the true north pole. The N end of a compass needle will point to this pole. As opposites attract, it is actually the south pole of the needle that is labeled N and is north-seeking. This north-seeking needle will also point to the north pole of a bar magnet, and to the north face of a flat magnet. This north pole we call "negative" and it is the pole usually used for health improvement, particularly cancer self treatment. "Negative magnetic polarity energy -- this is identified as the side at a flat surface magnet with poles on opposite sides or end of a bar magnet that registers negative (-) on a magnetometer. This is also the same energy as the true physical north magnetic pole of the earth. This is opposite to the north seeking pole of a compass needle, which was originally wrongly named north pole when in fact the north seeking pole of a bar magnet (compass needle) is south pole since opposites attract. "Positive magnetic polarity energy -- this is identified as the side of a flat surface magnet with poles on opposite sides or end of a bar magnet that registers positive (+) on a magnetometer. This is also the same energy as the true physical south magnetic pole of the earth. This is the same as the north seeking pole of a compass needle. "This is to avoid the "semantic confusion" when using north and south positive compass needle pointing north which was misidentified as north pole by navigators as in fact a south pole seeking the north pole of the earth. This follows the recommendations and use of several authors, especially those interested in the biological responses to magnetism, electricity and ionization and provides the consistency of parallel biological responses to the specific separate pole and/or energy of positive and negative electricity, magnetism and ionization. "Parallels are the negative poles of a DC circuit, negative pole of a magnet, and negative ionization. Biological responses to a negative magnetic field, magnetic electric pole and negative ionization. "A magnetic pole identified by a magnetometer as position (+), is the same magnetic energy as the true physical south magnetic pole of the earth and is the same as the north seeking pole of a bar magnet (compass needle). Parallels are the positive pole of a DC circuit, positive pole of a magnet and positive ionization. Biological responses to a positive magnetic field, positive electric pole and positive ionization are parallel." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13906 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Dumping a 7 year old into The Bottomless Pit Christopher Wynter wrote: "the gaul.... hmmmm ... a french connection?" Perhaps the person meant 'gall', rather than gaul. Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13907 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Dumping a 7 year old into The Bottomless Pit You're absolutely right, Diane; I did mean that . Thanks for the correction. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I can usually judge a fellow by what he laughs at. - Wilson Mizner Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13908 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re:(OT) about the turmoil on the list:Glenys You got me in stitches here Glenys, I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. I could just here that old Gene Autrey tune, back in the saddle again playing in the back of my wee wittle mind. And yes it does have the same connotations here. ROTFLMAO! Cracking up in the Ozarks. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13909 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Dumping a 7 year old into The Bottomless Pit I lost track of who said it but thought that's the word you meant, Glenys, when I first read it. love, Diane Glenys Lowery wrote: "Diane Linen wrote: "Perhaps the person meant 'gall', rather than gaul." "You're absolutely right, Diane; I did mean that . Thanks for the correction." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13910 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re:(OT) about the turmoil on the list:Glenys John Wayne Kline wrote: "And yes it does have the same connotations here. ROTFLMAO!" Well, if list traffic eases off for awhile, we'll know everyone is off taking the Tibetan's advice. Who would have thought he could be so saucy! :-) Love to all Easy Riders Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13911 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re:(OT) about the turmoil on the list:Glenys Glenys wrote: "No.........it's those bloody JJ'ites we're trying to stamp out here! LOL" Better a JJ'ite than a Shiite. The first time I saw 'that' word.... I said Wha????? ;) Diane Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13912 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: [-OT] My pic and write-up "BTW..I mailed a picture of me and Caeli and a small write-up to Rick for the photo album this week.....so you guys can start putting a 'face' with my e-mails." Judes, I am the one maintaining the Photo Album, so feel free to send me your pic directly :) Love, Samu chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13913 From: Maryellen Subject: Re: Conflicts, Glenys Glenys writes: "It's like he is trying to dangle a carrot in front of me and makes himself out to be this mysterious and wise being." "Sounds like a Philo to me. Good for you for seeing through him." Glenys, I have actually been pondering this exact thought. But it feels SO weird because I have know him for SO long. He is practically a relative. But yes, there have been subtle clues he has given me recently on e-mail. I asked him what he thought he "WAS" at his very core. He couldn't reply, but spoke in riddles around it. Then he said something very derogatory and sarcastic (aimed at ruffling my feathers.) He said, maybe we are NOT supposed to put effort into finding the Truth. Maybe there is NO truth! Then he said "Did you ever consider that to be true?" I wrote him back and said "ABSOLUTELY NOT." lol But seriously, what I am seeing is that the people who really are of the darkness are usually so brilliant and can speak very intelligently and convincingly about the "light." These are the ones we (as seekers) would tend to "follow" spiritual teacher. And I'm afraid this is true of this man and the other man I spoke about who is traveling and teaching all over the world. These are the types who are the most dangerous. To think of my friend I write about here as a Dark one, makes my skin crawl. But one thing I DO know, is that I have now seen enough about him to make me very suspicious, so I will never fall under his spell again. You are right Glenys in saying I have seen thru him. This is so disappointing and shocking, but I am greatfully accepting of my inner voice in this matter. Love, Maryellen Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13914 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: [OT] A star is born "Wow, Glenys, aren't we honored to get to greet and welcome Petra into NJ?" Just a side note here: Faces used in the comic, pasted over generic figures, add a personal touch and an "inside" treat for Keysters that are used. In doing so, I try to capture a bit of the personality as well, but decided to go with, "Only the names have been changed, to protect the innocent." I look in "The Name Book", by Pierre Le Rouzie, and find one that sounds close to the original and is of the same personality type. Samu becomes Samuel Glenys will be known as Glenda (shades of Wizard of Oz) Petra's name was selected from a list of names of the type known as, "Passionate Unveiler". She shares this type with those named Dorothy (more Oz) Interestingly, one of the sub themes in the story (and here at the Keys) is, "There's no place like home" Clicking my heels, three times, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13915 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Grace "From the Aquarian Gospel, by Levi; Before eating the "Last Supper", it is written; [160:26] And then they sang the Hebrew song of praise that Jews are wont to sing before the feast." Sounds like that might be one of the Psalms, but I don't know which one. Perhaps someone else knows which song the Jews sing before eating the Passover meal. Rick Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13916 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: [-OT] My pic and write-up Hi Samu and Judy, Just checked my snail mail box and found the picture had arrived. I've just scanned it and am sending copies to both of you. I'll either return the original, by mail, or bring it with me to Idaho. The rest of you will just have to wait, until Samu gets it up on the photo album. Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ and http://petracity.intercosmos.com/index.html The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13917 From: Claire Subject: Grace Another thing we used to do in a group I was in on Thursday night, before Good Friday, was do a foot washing ceremony. There was no written words to the ceremony, but the scripture was quoted each time where Jesus said something about as he washed the feet of the disciples so should the disciples wash the feet of others. Since the feet represent the under-standing, the washing of the feet meant that our understanding was cleansed. Then we would eat unleavened bread and drink water in rememberance. Only we didn't point the finger to Judes---I mean Judas....hahaha. A joke, Judes, don't get upset! Claire Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13918 From: "Geoffrey Ellis" Subject: life Hi all I have been part of this list for about a year but I still do not feel that I am one of you. My life is different from most of yours as: I do not have allergies I do not have rashes I have never been suicidal I do not have major illnesses I have had no major accidents I do not smoke I do not drink I do not take drugs of any kind I do not use the bible to back up what I say I am still happily married to my first wife I run my own business I am too busy to write often here I have no financial problems I have no relationship problems I really enjoy a beautiful life I am not paying off any karmic debts, so what am I doing here? I have not been through the Dark Night nor do I intend to I try to live with the Christ Consciousness I am really grounded I listen to my intuition I need to work on my modesty I am trying to learn by other peoples mistakes I must be doing something wrong somewhere as I am much to happy, or maybe we are allowed to just enjoy this life Geoffrey Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13919 From: Sanna Hanskala Subject: Re: life Well, sounds to me like you have what everybody else tries to have ;) ~ Sanna -- Sanna Hanskala sannah @ earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~sannah/ "Miracles are your birthright. This is what your hope tells you, and your hope is correct." - Emma Curtis Hopkins Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13920 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: [OT] A star is born I agree with Samu, Rick, we are both honoured to be in your comic. Rick Audette wrote: "Only the names have been changed, to protect the innocent." Oh yes, people will *never* guess who Samual and Glenda are :-) "I look in "The Name Book", by Pierre Le Rouzie, and find one that sounds close to the original and is of the same personality type." I have my doubts about the accuracy of some of Rouzie's analyses as he doesn't base them on name derivations eg the Impassioned Madonna write up for me is the same as that for Ed, Zsa- Zsa, Suki, Thyra and a host of other non-related names. Maybe Keysters who've bought the book should bear that in mind if they're trying to determine the real meaning of their names. Glenys/Glenda actually means holy and pure which isn't a lot like me :-) I was supposed to be Glynis but my father was drunk when he registered me and got it wrong. I suspect this wasn't an accident and I or my soul had chosen my name before I incarnated and was determined that it should be Glenys. "Samu becomes Samuel Glenys will be known as Glenda (shades of Wizard of Oz)" I can't remember her. Was she the witch? LOL Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not even sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13921 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [Judes] Re: Karma and Health .. from my casebook Judes wrote: "I wanted to add that [Jane's] therapy worked, but was throwing out the books part necessary also? It would seem that her strong spiritual background could also have been an anchor for her. Unless..you saw that her DEPENDENCE on outside sources was a detriment to her overall therapy." I still have my books which I read for enjoyment .. and to see where others have walked ... I have no attachment on them .. or dependence on them for advice or ritual .. Your attitude, you dependency on the books and the content is more important than your possession of them .. do you own the books or do the books own you .. in the story in question, the books owned Jane and she was attempting to fill her own emptiness with imagery of promises, overcome her loneliness with spiritual conversations in her head mask her decay with ritual aromatherapy and incense and justify her perceived powerlessness within the concept "it must be the Law of Cause and Effect .. My Karma" When it came to crunch .. she was confronted with the emptiness she had run into books looking to avoid ... by facing her own nakedness and accepting that, she did not need to recognise any self limiting deceptions but yet, in facing her nakedness she faced them all without judgment. I have faced this death.. several times in my life I have actually been "clinically dead". I can tell you that the "maker" I faced in those moments was that part of me who judged, not what I had done, but what I was too afraid to do because I could not accept the possibility that I could do it. I can tell you that the "God" I faced was myself. and my karma was my own lack of acceptance of my self .. whole and complete I can tell you that the "eternal life of salvation" I found was the salvation from a need for acceptance and approval, salvation from the oppression of a belief that my life in the physical body was an act of sacrifice labeled "Faith" or "spirituality" ... The salvation was freedom from servitude and sacrifice ... life is the Tao .. or the fullness of the experience .. the way of "the breath" as it flows continually between the emptiness and the fullness. Death is the result of the mind's denial of the infinity of breath ... to the point where the physical body gives up fighting the mind's denial of the essential nature of its own existence. these things I have experienced and live to breathe and write about .. in the joy of the expression of my own remembering In facing her nakedness and her emptiness, Jane did not have to die a physical death to find this out. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13922 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: AB Creative Imagination From Esoteric Psychology II (pp 246-249 & 428-430) By Alice Bailey Much is heard today of the New Age, of the coming revelation, of the imminent leap forward into an intuitive recognition of that which has hitherto been only dimly sensed by the mystics, the seer, the inspired poet, the intuitive scientist and the occult investigator who is not too preoccupied with the technicalities and the academic activities of the lower mind. But one thing is oft forgotten in the expectancy. There is no need for too great an upward straining or too intense an outward looking, to use terms which the usual limited point of view can grasp. That which is to be revealed lies all around us, and within us. It is the significance of all that is embodied in form, the meaning behind the appearance, the reality veiled by the symbol, the truth expressed in substance. Only two things will enable man to penetrate into this inner realm of cause and of revelation. These are: First, the constant effort, based on a subjective impulse, to create those forms which will express some sensed truth; for thereby and through this effort, the emphasis is constantly shifted from the outer world of seeming to the inner side of phenomena. By this means, a focusing of consciousness is produced which eventually becomes stable and withdrawn from its present intense exteriorisation. An initiate is essentially one whose sense of awareness is occupied with subjective contacts and impacts, and is not predominantly preoccupied with the world of outer sense perceptions. This cultivated interest in the inner world of meaning will produce not only a pronounced effect upon the spiritual seeker himself but will eventually bring about the emphasis, recognised in the brain consciousness of the race, that the world of meaning is the sole world of reality for humanity. This realisation will, in its turn, bring about two subsequent effects: 1. A close adaptation of the form to the significant factors which have brought it into being on the outer plan. 2. The production of a truer beauty in the world, and therefore, a closer approximation in the world of created forms to the inner emerging truth. It might be said that divinity is veiled and hidden in the multiplicity of forms with their infinite detail, and that in the simplicity of forms which will eventually be seen, we shall arrive at a newer beauty, a greater sense of truth, and at the revelation of God's meaning and purpose in all that He has accomplished from age to age. Secondly, the constant effort to render oneself sensitive to the world of significant realities and to produce, therefore, those forms on the outer plane which will run true to the hidden impulse. This is brought about by the cultivation of the creative imagination. As yet, humanity knows little about this faculty, latent in all men. A flash of light breaks through to the aspiring mind; a sense of unveiled splendour for a moment sweeps through the spirant, tensed for revelation; a sudden realisation of a colour, a beauty, a wisdom and a glory beyond words breaks out before the attuned consciousness of the artist, in a high moment of applied attention, and life is then seen for a second as it essentially is. But the vision is gone and the fervour departs and the beauty fades out. The man is left with a part sense of bereavement, of loss, and yet with a certainty of knowledge and a desire to express that which he has contacted, such as he has never experienced before. He must recover that which he has seen; he must discover it to those who have not had his secret moment of revelation; he must express it in some form, and reveal to others the realised significance behind the phenomenal appearance. How can he do this? How can he recover that which he has once had and which seems to have disappeared, and to have retired out of his field of consciousness? He must realise that that which he has seen and touched is still there and embodies reality; that it is he who has withdrawn and not the vision. The pain in all moments of intensity must be undergone and lived again and again until the mechanism of contact is accustomed to the heightened vibration and can not only sense and touch, but can hold and contact at will this hidden world of beauty. The cultivation of this power to enter, hold and transmit is dependent upon three things: 1. A willingness to bear the pain of revelation. 2. The power to hold on to the high point of consciousness at which the revelation comes. 3. The focusing of the faculty of the imagination upon the revelation, or upon as much of it as the brain consciousness can bring through into the lighted area of external knowledge. It is the imagination or the picture- making faculty which links the mind and brain together, and thus produces the exteriorisation of veiled splendour. When modern psychologists comprehend more fully the creative purpose of humanity, and seek to develop the creative imagination more constructively, and also to train the directional will, much will be accomplished. When these two factors (Which are the signal evidence of divinity in man) are studied and scientifically developed and utilised, they will produce the self-releasing of all the problem cases which are found in our clinics at this time. Thus we shall, through experiment, arrive at a more rapid understanding of man. Psychology can count definitely upon the innate ability of the human unit to understand the use of the creative imagination and the use of directional purpose, for it is found frequently even in children. The development of the sense of fantasy and the training of children to make choices (to the end that ordered purpose may emerge in their lives) will be two of the governing ideals of the new education. The sense of fantasy calls into play the imagination, perception of beauty, and the concept of the subjective worlds; the power of choice, with its implications of why and wherefore and to what end (if wisely taught from early days), will do much for the race, particularly if, at the time of adolescence, the general world picture and the world plan are brought to the attention of the developing intelligence. Therefore: 1. The sense of Fantasy 2. The sense of Choice 3. The sense of the Whole Plus 4. The sense of ordered Purpose Should govern our training of the children who are coming into incarnation. The sense of fantasy brings the creative imagination into play, thus providing the emotional nature with constructive outlets; this should be balanced and motivated by the recognition of the power of right choice and the significance of the higher values. These, in turn, can be developed selflessly by a due recognition of the environing whole in which the individual has to play his part, whilst the entire range of reactions are increasingly subordinated by the understanding of the ordered purpose which is working out in the world. These are the basic premises which should emerge in the techniques which psychology will use when it has reached the point of accepting (or at least experimenting with) the above ideas Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13923 From: Claire Subject: Re: life Hi Geoffrey, You said: I am not paying off any karmic debts, so what am I doing here? Claire: Do you mean what are you doing on this list or in the physical? You said: I must be doing something wrong somewhere as I am much to happy, or maybe we are allowed to just enjoy this life Claire: Maybe we are SUPPOSED to enjoy this life. Are you complaining? :) No, I didn't think so. Actually, advanced souls have the right to choose their next life and it sounds like you are not only an advanced soul but have chosen to leave a pattern in the "mind" of a happy life. We all have our "missions", and yours is no less than anyone else's. Some people come to break up old patterns and other people come to plant new patterns. Claire Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13924 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: AB .. and children Craig wrote: "1. The sense of Fantasy 2. The sense of Choice 3. The sense of the Whole Plus 4. The sense of ordered Purpose "Should govern our training of the children who are coming into incarnation. The sense of fantasy brings the creative imagination into play, thus providing the emotional nature with constructive outlets; this should be balanced and motivated by the recognition of the power of right choice and the significance of the higher values. These, in turn, can be developed selflessly by a due recognition of the environing whole in which the individual has to play his part, whilst the entire range of reactions are increasingly subordinated by the understanding of the ordered purpose which is working out in the world." Hello Craig ... From my personal experience and the experience of the teachers and the social workers who are part of my group here in Tasmania .. May I respectfully suggest this is like "teaching Grandmother to suck eggs" If anyone can bother to move beyond the need to teach the children anything, they would find that this is the inherent wisdom of the child .. which we, the adults in the past, have sought to cover up in our need for our children to conform .. and because we could not remember this expression from our own childhood. If anyone bothers to hear the children beyond their expectations of what the child "is or is not capable of knowing" they would find that the children know this and more. I had a teacher come to me ... her class had the lowest literacy standard in the state and the reputation for the worst behavioural problems ... we sat and talked .. and I showed her how to hear the children .... with nothing to loose, she started to try this way on her class .... which is now being written up in educational journals as "a miracle of transformation" and questions are being asked as to why the class average in literacy is greater than the highest individual score from any other school ... and why there are no more behavioural problems or class absenteeism ... The simple answer .. which the authorities are finding it hard to accept is that .. by being accepted for who they are, the child can move beyond the projections of the adult/peer ... they maintain a faith in themselves ... they explore learning as a means of expression of their inherent knowing ... they have nothing to prove to anyone .... as a side note .. several of the group who suffered dyslexia have been completely cured .. when asked why, they told us this was because "they did not have to translate what they saw into something which was not the way they perceived it in order to conform to what they were taught" They did not have to "tell lies" to themselves in order to survive .. and were able to remember what truth really was ... This from the mouth of a seven year old Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13925 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: [OT] A star is born Rick writes: "http://petracity.intercosmos.com/page_5.htm" Rick, this is fantastic. You are very talented!!! I love it. BJ Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13926 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Grace Hi Jen, I've been thinking about you a lot lately as we haven't heard from you for awhile. Nice to see you're still here :-) It is generally accepted that he Last Supper was the celebration of the Jewish Passover. Reading a little about the Passover ceremony may help you get more understanding of some of the events at the Last Supper that will enhance your experience eg four glasses of wine are poured to represent freedom, deliverance, redemption and release, certain bitter and sweet herbs were used that related to slavery and liberation and so on. Prayers and hymns are sung throughout the ceremony and Rick is correct, psalms would feature. I can't remember the one that is traditionally sung at the Passover but it would probably be one that has a theme centred around God's deliverance and power. Here is one prayer that is said at the Seder (meal) that may interest you. You would probably want to adapt it to Australian conditions eg changing spring to autumn. Have a great time. Getting together with friends is a wonderful idea. Love Glenys The Song of the Seder Plate On the full moon in the month of Spring our souls fly free from bondage *** Shedding tears of joy and sorrow we move from the narrow place of Mitzrayim (Egypt) in a journey toward the Infinite One *** With the swelling of our moon song the tides rise and fall and the story of this season begs to be told again and again *** Chaos returns to Order and we are given the freedom to choose *** Our salt sea Mother births a world of sweet and bitter gentle and strong egg creatures blood mammals earthy vegetables and fragrant fruits *** By the full light of the Divine Presence and with arms outstretched we lift up the cup of liberation *** Our sacrifices burn on the altar of the heart children dance with their parents and all are born anew *** Jennifer Hampson wrote: "Anyway none of us have really come to the spiritual through a traditional religious upbringing and we are not familiar with different ways of saying Grace. If anyone knows a very beautiful and appropriate Grace we can say before the meal, or if anyone feels inspired to compose one, I'd really love to hear from you." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13927 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: life Geoffrey Ellis writes: "I have been part of this list for about a year but I still do not feel that I am one of you. My life is different from most of yours as:" Judes: Whenever I have bemoaned the lives of others that seem to have it so well and easy..they say "It JUST LOOKS that way"..they have problems too..everyone does". Dern..I knew they were lying...see you prove there are people that have wonderful lives...I do not know, Jeff, you TELL US why your life works so well so we can copy the formula. LOL Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13928 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: [OT] A star is born Glenys Lowery writes: "(Glenys will be known as Glenda (shades of Wizard of Oz)" "I can't remember her. Was she the witch? LOL" Judes: She was to GOOD witch! Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13929 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: [OT] A star is born Phew! LOL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- You can always spot a well informed person. Their views are the same as yours. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13930 From: TheTripleGoddess Subject: Re: Grace Hi Jennifer, I thought I'd share with you a formal grace I know. "Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts, which we are about to receive from thy bounty, through Christ our Lord, amen." Another one is: "Come Lord Jesus. Be our guest and grant us all the gifts you've blessed, amen." Blessings! Bonnie thetriplegoddess@aol.com "the real holy place is mental." bdp Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13931 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: The Void Peter Sj?stedt wrote: "When the wind blows it is easier to see which house stand on solid ground. So if not for anything else the negative atmosphere brings out both the very best and the worst." Peter, I generally avoid emails that say nothing but I Agree as it can be a burden on those who are concerned about the volume of mail, but I have to agree with John that your post was superb. It is great hearing the voice of sanity (like Bonnie's earlier on) in the midst of madness :-) From memory you're in Anni's Synthesis Group. aren't you? Lucky Anni is all I can say! If you ever get tired of it, feel free to visit the New Zealand group whenever you like (see Anni - I'm trying to poach already) :-) Thanks for sharing. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13932 From: J J Dewey Subject: Much Ado about Nothing There seems to be two camps on this oneness and void idea. Camp 1 (of which I am a part) We should seek oneness which is still something while seeking to wisely Become while living in the world of dualities. Our reason here is something much greater than to just escape into a void of nothingness. Camp 2 We should seek oneness which is a void of nothingness where no dualities such as Decision, consciousness, happiness, joy and peace could even be exist. We seek to go there with our whole being forthwith - without delay. Whichever camp we see ourselves in let us leave this duality of oneness behind and move on. We have done better this time. We have only lost about twelve members because of the current friction. In the past we have lost up to 40 covering this subject. We dropped from 230 to 224, but then probably at least six new members came in so we lost about 12. It may be worth loosing members if we have a new subject that needs resolved, but it seems counterproductive to loose them in rehashing as we do. I am probably as much at fault as anyone and I'm not promising I will not comment on the subject again, but I have herewith resolved to move on at this "point" in time and space. Hmmm Is this point a point of nothingness? Am I nothing right now because I am at this point? ... Wake up JJ! Slap slap... Snap out of it... Whew, that was close. I almost got sucked into the black hole again. Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13933 From: J J Dewey Subject: To Heal or Not Thanks for your gracious note Bonnie and again welcome to the new ones on the list who have had the fortitude to stay with us. Overall people on both sides of the arguments that have come up are gentle souls under normal circumstances and are not likely to bite anyone's head off, especially a newer member. Sometimes us old timers go for the jugular in each other and there may be a little ego at times but the main motivator is a desire for the other side of the argument to see their point of view or desire (right or wrong) to enlighten their fellow man. You are welcome to ask any question at all and either I or some other member will do our best to answer. In the thousands of pages of archives I do not think you can find an example of me snapping at anyone for asking a question. If someone calls names or is rude it is quite possible they will be told that this is not acceptable. That should be the worst that will happen to anyone who jumps in with both feet. If you present a point of view it will always be possible that someone will disagree with you, but that is the price of free discussion. And Maryellen - no apologies needed. I have enjoyed all your posts and find you a welcome addition to the list. Back to the subject of healing. We left off where I have related the story of the first real miracle I experienced in my life. This example I gave does illustrate that it is possible to heal without any conscious cooperation from the ill person. But does this mean that faith exercised by the person who is ill is not necessary? No. Cooperation, belief and faith from the ill person can be a great aid as witnessed by the healings of the Master himself. In many accounts of healing in the Bible Jesus told the person experiencing the miracle "your faith has made you whole." Notice that he did not say "my faith has made you whole," but "your faith." It is also interesting that when he visited his home town that he could perform no miracle there because the people who thought they knew him did not believe in him. Instead of taking advantage of healing by faith they attempted to kill Jesus by throwing him off a cliff merely because they disagreed with him. So if a normal part of a miracle is a show of faith from the person being healed then how was it that my command for healing was honored by God? Someone came close to the truth, but I do not recall the name, but the answer I received as time moved on was this. I was at a point of tension and at this point I was trying to decide whether to make my prime focus the following of outside authorities or the inner self and the scriptures? On top of this I felt full of faith and without doubt at that moment. I believe the healing was honored more as a teaching lesson to me than for the healing of my friend. It is even possible that my friend came down with the disease as part of the plan behind the lesson. Whatever the case this event did have a profound influence on me throughout he rest of my life to date. From that time on I have never just swallowed what any authority has said without questioning and thinking it through for myself. Once an authority proves himself several times I will give him some leverage, but until then I apply the principles of discovery first. The funny thing about this miracle is that at the same time I had an uncle who also had MS for some time and was slowly getting worse. For some reason I did not feel impressed to try to heal him. I picked up that hen did not believe he could be healed unless it was by an elder of the church. Years later when I did become an elder I approached him and asked him if I could give him a blessing. As me and a companion laid our hands on his head and I began to speak I tried with all my power to give the command to my beloved uncle to rise and walk, but the spirit within told me no. It was not to be. I then gave him a general blessing of support, but could not promise him a healing. Then a couple years later I tried again and still the Spirit within said no - the time is not yet. Finally, some time later again I was visiting my uncle again who was cared for by my grandmother. My friend Wayne from the book was with me. I looked at my uncle and my friend lying on the couch. He could no longer rise himself up, he could not speak and could barely eat with my grandmother's assistance. As I touched him I felt great sadness and wondered to myself why God would heal a casual acquaintance through me, yet would refuse to heal a man who had suffered so much for so many years - a man I loved deeply. He was one of five brothers and the whole family agreed that this man was the most spiritual of the bunch and was the last person who deserved such a fate. As I stood in silent contemplation the inner voice spoke to me and it said these words: "This man has suffered enough." I stepped back and reflected. What does this mean? If he has suffered enough it would mean it is either time for him to die or to be healed. I hoped it was time to be healed, but prepared myself for the other possibility. I turned to my grandmother and said: "Do you think it would be alright to give Bob one more blessing?" She looked on at her son with sad eyes and said yes, that would be fine. Wayne and I then laid our hands on his head and I promised him that he would either be healed or be taken, but that he would suffer no more. Wayne and I were in our college years at the time and the next day we departed back to school for it was the end of Christmas vacation. Three days after the blessing I felt a powerful presence and I knew it was my uncle who had passed on. The man was absolutely thrilled to be released from that dreadful situation. He was as happy and joyful as it is possible for a man to be and was extremely appreciative for my assistance in releasing him from his earthly prison. A couple hours later my mom called and spoke with sadness in her voice and said: "I have some sad news. Bob died." I told her. "That is not sad news. Its good news for I assure you that he is very happy to be free from that terrible disease." It was years later after I learned the truth about reincarnation and why life seemed to be so unfair. Because of cause and effect and karma accumulated over many lifetimes each of us are in special situations unique unto ourselves. Question: Taking reincarnation and karma into effect why do you suppose it is that some people can he healed and others not? Is it possible for one to be healed when his disease is connected wit his karma? If one learns his karma is it possible to accelerate payment and thus free himself from unfortunate circumstance? Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13934 From: "Lawrence Kennon" Subject: Re: To Heal or Not JJ wrote: "If one learns his karma ..." How can one learn his(her)karma? Do you advise one to, for example, undergo hypnotic regression to learn about past lives? "...is it possible to accelerate payment and thus free himself from unfortunate circumstance?" I am certain you have already said this is possible. One can accelerate payment by dedicating one's life to dong a great good. lk Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13935 From: Marylin Subject: O.T. Caution to all AOL users This came to me from an e-mail friend - thought I had better send it on in case it is true. el ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thought I would share with everyone something that happened on Tuesday night... and I hope that you will all pass this to other AOL members. While I was online Tuesday night, I was sent me an IM and told me to checkout the profile of another AOL user named CRAZY70707. Not really thinking much about it, I pulled the profile up ... and in big red letters, the word "FROZEN" was at the top of this profile. At first, I thought it was some kind of a joke, but when I went to click the profile off of my screen...I couldn't do anything...I was, as the profile said, frozen. I sat for a few moments thinking the joke would go away and I could continue my time on AOL. This wasn't the way it was going to happen. The only way I could get out was to cntrl/alt/delete. When I was able to log on again, my computer was sluggish so I logged off again. A few hours later when I decided to try again...I clicked on my AOL icon and a warning came up that I would need to reinstall AOL ...it had been completely wiped from our system. When Alan got home, he called AOL to see if they could tell what happened. When he told the AOL rep about CRAZY70707, she pulled the profile up and guess what...as you might have already guessed...her computer froze up as mine did. We had to reinstall 4.0 and 5.0 again ... and we all know how much of a pain that is. We have lost everything in our download file, as well as everything stored in our favorite places. I am sending this as a warning to you all - do not pull this profile up...whoever this person is, he's an idiot ... he's been reported and I am hoping that AOL is smart and will discontinue his membership. In the meantime, however, don't get stuck in the same mess that we were - and, by all means, pass this to as many people as you can. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13936 From: "Anni West" Subject: Re: The Void (OT) Hi Glenys, Peter and all Glenys wrote (to Peter): "If you ever get tired of it, feel free to visit the New Zealand group whenever you like (see Anni - I'm trying to poach already) :-)" LOL LOL I don't mind one bit, Glenys. Peter has his free will to attend any group he wants (she said knowing NZ is on the other side of the earth - he he!) :-)))))))) Love to all Anni Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13937 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re:(OT) about the turmoil on the list:Glenys Diane Linen writes: "Better a JJ'ite than a Shiite. The first time I saw 'that' word.... I said Wha?????" "Oooops! I stepped in some Shiite." (as seen on a US Marine t-shirt sometime in the mid 1980s) ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13938 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Much Ado about Nothing You have to know what the other camp maintains before debating or even discussing it. If you misinterpreted or misquoted what the other was talking about you were not doing justice to that camp. This is exactly the case before our eyes. Who has ever defined or described void or nothingness as where to escape to with our whole being without delay? How could we go on discussing the matter with such gross misunderstanding of such crucial word as void or nothingness? Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com JJ Dewey wrote: "There seems to be two camps on this oneness and void idea." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13939 From: TheTripleGoddess Subject: Re: To heal or not Last year in june my 2 1/2 year old nephew snuck outside when he was supposed to be napping. He tried to reach for one of his toys that was floating in the pool. He slipped, hit his head, fell in the pool and drowned. He was revived by a neighbor long enough to get him to the children's hospital in Philly, Pa. There he lingered unconscious, hooked up to many tubes and a respirator. All of the family was there and a priest was brought in to pray over him. I did some massage and reiki on him, as well. When I did the reiki, I knew he wasn't going to make it. It was the strangest thing and it never happened to me before when I gave reiki to someone. As I prayed over him and layed my hands on him I felt the energy begin to flow out of my palms. That part was usual, the strange thing was that I felt him rejecting the energy. As soon as the energy seemed to "seep" into him immediately I felt it rise back up like a mist. It happened repeatedly till I got the message and gave up to just pray for him. He died a few days later. Most couldn't understand why god would take this sweet little boy. I admit it was an awful time for such a thing to happen (not that it ever isn't awful). His parents wedding was a week or so away from all this and they thought that everything was working out perfectly according to plan. But, little Trevor was an angel and to me I believe his purpose was to help his mother get her life and attitude on track. Which he did. When she had him she really changed a lot and for the better. She was and is a wonderful person, but she had a lot of issues that Trevor helped her to overcome. I agree with JJ that sometimes healings aren't meant to happen sometimes, though it doesn't make grief any basket of cookies. To this day, his mother and father and sister (and the rest of the family) are suffering with their grief and I ask you all to remember them in your prayers if you could. As for the karma question with healing, that is something to ponder for awhile. Namaste! Bonnie thetriplegoddess@aol.com "the real holy place is mental." bdp Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13940 From: "susan carter" Subject: OT Deepak Chopra's HOW TO KNOW GOD An outline from Deepak Chopra's new book that gave me a lot of insight to myself and you might find enlightening. I don't understand his seventh level at all but the others resonated and felt true to me. Perhaps its because the seventh level is too far advanced for me right now to understand or Mr. Chopra is completely off base. Hopefully, despite its weaknesses, this will help us see ourselves and each other and why we disagree so much on fundamental issues. For your discernment: First Stage: Fight or Flight Response God the Protector Vengeful Capricious Quick to anger Jealous Judgmental-meting out reward and punishment Unfathomable Sometimes merciful World of bare survival Find God through fear, loving devotion Good is safety, comfort, food, shelter and family Evil is physical threat and abandonment Life challenge is to survive, protect and maintain Strength courage Weakness fear of loss, abandonment greatest temptation tyranny You fulfill your life through family, community, a sense of belonging, and material comforts. Miracles involve surviving great danger, impossible rescues, a sense of divine protection "I am small and insignificant, stranded on the vast expanse of Nature, I hope I can survive" Faith is a matter of survival. If I don't pray to God, he can destroy me. Stage 2 Reactive Response; God the Almighty Soverign Omnipotent Just Answerer of prayers Impartial Rational Organized into rules World of competition and ambition Find God through awe and obedience Good is getting what you want Evil is any obstacle to getting what you want Life challenge is maximum achievement Strength is accomplishment weakness is guilt, victimization Greatest temptaion is addiction You fulfill your life through success, power, influence, status, and other ego satisfactions. Miracles involve incredible achievements and success, control over the body or mind. Extreme feats of marial arts, child prodigies etc I can do more than survive, I can compete and fulfill more of my needs. I'm begging to have faith in myself. I pray to God to help me get what I want. Stage 3 Restful Awareness Response: God of Peace Detached Calm offering consoloation undemanding conciliatory silent meditative World of inner solitutde, self sufficiency Find God through meditation, silent contemplation Good is clarity, inner calm and contact with the self Evil is inner turmoil and chaos. Life challenge to be engaged and detached Strength Autonomy Weakness Fatalism Temptaion Introversion You fulfill your life through peace, centeredness, self acceptance and inner silence Miracles involve synchronicity, premonitions, feeling the presence of God or angels I am peaceful inside. My inner world is beginning to satisfy me more than outward things. Faith brings me peace. I pray that life should b free from turmoil and distress. Stage Four: Intuitive Response: God the Redeemer understanding tolerant forgiving nonjudgmental inclusive accepting World of insight and personal growth Find God through self acceptance Good is clarity, seeing the truth Evil is blindness, denying the truth Life challenge to go beyond duality Strength is insight weakness is delusion Temptation is delusion You fulfill your life through insight, empathy, tolerance, and forgiveness Miracles involve telepathy, ESP, knowledge of past or future lifetimes, prophetic powers I am self-sufficient. Things may not always go my way, but that doesn't shake me anymore. I have faith that inner knowledge will uphold me. I pray for more insight into God's ways. Stage Five: Creative Response; God the Creator unlimited creative potential control over space and time abundant open generous willing to be known inspired World of art, invention, disscovery Find god through inspiration Good is higher consciousness evil is lower consciousness Life challenge to align with the creator strength imagination weakness self importance temptation solipsism (definition: believing that only your mind is real, while all objects out there in the world are mirages that depend upon you the perceiver and without you they would melt away) You fulfill your life through inspiration, expanded creativity in art or science, and unlimited discovery Miracles involve divine inspiration, artistic genius, spontaneous fulfillment of desires I have discovered how to manifest my desires from within. My inner world turned out to have power. Faith tells me that God will support my every desire. I pray that I am worthy of his faith in me. Stage 6 Visionary Response; God of Miracles transformative mystical enlightened beyond all causes existing healing magical alchemist world of prophets, sage, and seers Find God through grace good is a cosmic force evil is another aspect of the same force Life challenge is to attain liberation strength holiness, weakness false idealism temptation martyrdom You fulfill your life through reverence, compassion, devoted service, and universal love. Miracles involve healing, physical transformations, holy apparitions, highest degree of supernatural feats (walking on water, healing incurable diseases through touch, direct revelation) I am at the center of an immense scheme of Power and intelligence that emanates from God. Faith can move mountains. I pray to be God's instrument of transformation. Stage 7 Sacred Response God of Pure Being "I AM" unborn undying unchanging unmoving unmanifest immeasurable invisible intangible infinite Transcendent world Find god by transcending Good is the union of all opposites Evil no longer exists Life challenge is to be myself strength is unity weakness is duality greatest temptation: now beyond temptation You fulfill your life through wholeness and unity with the divine Miracles involve inner evidence of enlightenment, examples are Buddha, Jesus, Lao-Tze I am. Faith melts into universal being. When I pray, I find that I am praying to myself. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13941 From: J J Dewey Subject: Clarification Paul writes: "Who has ever defined or described void or nothingness as where to escape to with our whole being without delay?" That has always been my impression (and I am sure that of others) of what your goal is. Perhaps the phrase "transfer yourself" would be more acceptable? You are welcome to post a couple lines to capsulize how your belief here differs from mine to clarify your position. By the way, why do you think we are here anyway? Do you see the creation of duality as a big mistake or do you just have the view that the creation of duality never really occurred and we are not really here and thus no escape or transference is even necessary? Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13942 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: To Heal or Not Loving greetings to One and All, J J Dewey: Overall people on both sides of the arguments that have come up are gentle souls under normal circumstances and are not likely to bite anyone's head off, especially a newer member. Sometimes us old timers go for the jugular in each other and there may be a little ego at times but the main motivator is a desire for the other side of the argument to see their point of view or desire (right or wrong) to enlighten their fellow man. Zia: This would be an accurate assessment JJ, in my humble opinion as well. I have a great love for my fellowman, and I am certain that is also true of you and surely all those on the list. Perhaps the goal is simply to inspire and uplift, enlightenment is of and by the individual, not extended by someone else as I see it. The most another could be is a catalyst at a particular moment in time as I see it. JJ: If you present a point of view it will always be possible that someone will disagree with you, but that is the price of free discussion. Zia: And how we endeavor to allow this in another, extending freedom of speech truly, and freedom of thought is important. I am gaining an understanding in walking beside my brother even with disagreements of perception, rather than lock head on. That certainly does not inspire anyone. I will do better next time. JJ: Back to the subject of healing. Zia: Now this is a subject that certainly holds interest for my self. What you have related is a physical healing, and as I see it there is healing potential on all levels. The healing that you demonstrated JJ changes 'an event' in the physical body. I am so delighted this subject has come up, for I have carried questions all of my life, that although many answers have been given... still challenges me. JJ: Question: Taking reincarnation and karma into effect why do you suppose it is that some people can he healed and others not? Is it possible for one to be healed when his disease is connected wit his karma? If one learns his karma is it possible to accelerate payment and thus free himself from unfortunate circumstance? Zia: The first question has to do with free will, the person simply may not want to be healed, and would rather disappear into the bottomless pit of death... free will operates profoundly in healing, the success of the healing, as another has already demonstrated about the young boy. Yes to the second question, because karma does not go on forever, it is able to be cleared... and the healing is often available at precisely the right time for healing to occur, in other words the lesson has been learnt, the debt paid, and healing the natural outcome. This I see is what was demonstrated with 'Elizabeth' in the Immortal. Therefore the answer to the third question above is yes, when we live our 'soul purpose' for this lifetime, it is designed for exactly that to me, the freeing of one's past mistakes, and opportunities in which to accelerate healing and moving into our creative abilities, and a much greater lifetime. In our oneness with another much information can be given and received in understanding the point at which healing is able to be accepted. Being open and able to receive this information, is precisely the importance of reaching the highest levels of consciousness, thus able to assist another. Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13943 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: To Heal or Not Zia writes: "And how we endeavor to allow this [room for free discussion] in another, extending freedom of speech truly, and freedom of thought is important. I am gaining an understanding in walking beside my brother even with disagreements of perception, rather than lock head on. That certainly does not inspire anyone. I will do better next time." Hey, are we kissing and making up now?? GROUP HUG!! Whoa...watch those hands, Craig! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13944 From: TheTripleGoddess Subject: Re: Deepak Chopra's How To Know God I found the different stages to be very interesting, but I don't feel any one phase applies to me. I don't how everyone else feels, but through my spiritual studies and reflection I seem to be a jumble of them all. I guess the closest ones that have the most lasting effect on me so far would be 3-5, but I am ever honing and refining my beliefs and myself like so many people do day to day, year to year. I even backslide into the more physical/material world type thinking, partly because I am far from perfect, partly because I like to backtrack and see if I missed anything important. I don't know if this is just my make-up or the norm for most people, but I would say that I seem to both consciously and unconsciously jump back and forth from phases as different aspects of my life crop up. Ex.- like if I am broke and have bills to pay then I might slip into the lower more material/power phases, because I am so focused on my situation at the moment. Or if I am in the midst of distressing arguments, (lol..like earlier) I might go into the peaceful phase. Or if I am in a deeply spiritual time of fasting and meditation I might jump up to the seventh level of one-ness and bliss. I don't think any of the phases on their own can really describe me and my spirituality. I guess it might for others, but I can only speak for myself. Anyone into astrology will understand why I "jump around" though. I have no earth signs in my natal chart...lol Namaste! Bonnie thetriplegoddess@aol.com "the real holy place is mental." bdp Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13945 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re:[OT] Kubrik: Eyes Wide Shut What a film!! Kubrik has got to be an inititate and member of the Brotherhood. IMO..watched this yesterday...and felt there were many 'deeper' meanings and levels in this movie. Not for the delicate-souls..but hit to the 'core' of what is going on behind the illusionary veils. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13946 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Clarification Loving greetings to One and All, Paul writes: "Who has ever defined or described void or nothingness as where to escape to with our whole being without delay?" JJ: That has always been my impression (and I am sure that of others) of what your goal is. Perhaps the phrase "transfer yourself" would be more acceptable? Zia: This is such an astonishing perception. I for one must say that the goal is to engage life so fully, with all of our God-given abilities, that I can only surmise that the desire to escape is usually based upon fear, and a desire for no life. This would fit in perfectly with your description of 'the bottomless pit' that people choose and subsequently die, leaving their physical body completely. Thus in the choice for death... as somehow worded in your quote, their names are not written in the book of life, for they have chosen death. I see Paul as desiring to live life to the fullest and highest that he knows to be true. In fact JJ I see this for you as well. And I also would have thought this was each individual's ultimate desire as well. The 'void' being the creation of all life, and all things... all that is...and ever will be, does not sound nor look like escape or death or a bottomless pit. It is the foundation of all life. That known, experienced and understood, opens the ability in one to that creative potential, in my humble opinion. If I could liken the 'void' to point zero, the creation point, then all thought filters through all levels of consciousness from this void. And thus this 'void' when accessed fills one with all creative thought, to the degree we can consciously receive it. The void then is the container of all the thoughts of God, or better put 'The Mind of God'. Like a point of transition, God-thought - creation unfoldment. The point at which creation is poised to come into manifestation. And profoundly because of this, being capable of taking one thought, into the void, and holding it consciously there, equals manifestation here, for that is where it comes from. Manifestation is not from here, but from the void, the creative potential of all things. The more easily my consciousness can arise to the nearest point to the void and live there, and then simply place my thoughts into the void, the faster the manifestation. And held consciously long enough in the void... ahhh here comes a loaf of bread in my hand....... The intervening levels of consciousness are tied into the time in which a manifestation occurs. So to me the bottomless pit (a great description of Hell if there is one) quotation you gave JJ refers to the choice for death, and all of its scenarios created by ourselves and the losing of ourself in time into those scenarios. Hence Mark's quotation of the plane with everyone believing they are asleep... just one of those scenarios in the bottomless pit to me. A great demonstration of this was the movie 'What Dreams May Come', beautifully portraying our creative abilities and pictured beliefs in death and guilt, and ultimately the return to life and the adventure once again. The void carries the picture of all LIFE in its perfection, and that accessed changes one's life into ETERNAL LIFE and the ongoingness of LIFE into mastery and beyond. JJ: You are welcome to post a couple lines to capsulize how your belief herediffers from mine to clarify your position. Zia: Forgive me that I could not put this into a couple of lines. The sense of Joy and Peace attained from the void is not the sense of death and destruction and supposed escape of a bottomless pit, these must be the two opposite ends of one stick...... JJ: By the way, why do you think we are here anyway? Do you see the creationof duality as a big mistake or do you just have the view that the creationof duality never really occurred and we are not really here and thus noescape or transference is even necessary? Zia: Duality is a perception. Oneness is a perception of Mind. Seeing God and Creation as separate, creates a dual perception. Seeing God and Creation in the Oneness that they are, that God could not be separate from its creation... is thus a ONENESS perception. Since there is no duality in one's perception where would they escape to or transfer to, an even greater separation potential? With no separation, with oneness, then no life can ever be lost... where could it go?? Yet one in their mind might 'believe' in death, loss, hell, and strive to create that in their mind... and thus live it out mentally, emotionally, physically... blinded by that belief, and seeing only that belief. Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13947 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Who's who and What's what Susan wrote: Makes me wonder if it is the City of Enoch that disappeared with an enlightened people spoken of in Genesis and The Pearl of Great Price (an LDS scripture book). Judes: Makes sense to me Susan...and worth putting attention to for attaining more knowledge. Also: I am completely confused about who is who on this list..who is mad at who..and why..etc. I had not read Craig's post about the JJ's outcast forum..and assume it was a joke..I Know that I am 'pure of heart' in my postings..and like JWK feel that there is a 'time' that some things are spoken about , etc. I am going to 'keep on posting' and let the wheats and tares grow and spill seeds wherever...Please do not 'read' anything into my postings or make assumptions that are not present within them and I will not do that with any one else's. May the garden grow..and we all glean what we will. And may we all obtain the objectivity and egolessness of JJ and Glenys. So may it be..with God's will. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13948 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Apology: Paul and Chris I wanted an apology on the record to Paul and Chris for saying they were 'dryyy'. I enjoy there postings very much from a soul level. And although..they seem from time to time to be disagreeing with topics brought forward by JJ..they do bring a chance for all of us to search our own souls to clarify if we wish to respond or disagree with them. Many times both of their comments.. add to' and enhance JJ's teachings. And they are both 'great souls..and I have felt 'both' in NJ....even if they are not aware yet that they have been there or will be going there in the future. Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13949 From: "* Zia" Subject: [OT} Symptoms of Inner Peace Loving greetings to One and All, Not given any author for this and I have added a couple of lines of my own... enjoy:) Some Signs and Symptoms of Inner Peace A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than on fears based on past experiences. An unmistakeable ability to enjoy each moment. A loss of interest in judging other people and in interpreting their actions. A loss of interest in conflict. A loss of the ability to worry. (very serious symptom!) Frequent, overwhelming episodes of appreciation. Feelings of connectedness with others and nature. Frequent attacks of smiling. (also very serious!) Frequent uncontrollable outbursts of laughter. (most serious!!) An increasing tendency to let things happen, rather than to make them happen. An increased susceptibility to the love extended by others, and the uncontrollable urge to extend it. Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13950 From: "* Zia" Subject: [OT] No End to Becoming Loving Greetings to One and All, From another list: There is no end to becoming "When egg and sperm join, each bearing its particular genetic gifts, a new form is created and future life potentialities are set forth. Not every potential will manifest, but what the soul needs for its development it may well draw to the form. Esoteric philosophy teaches that the physical form, the body of the individual, is made new at birth, but the soul is ancient, the stuff of the stars. Out of the confines of the womb we enter new life. But all life is potentiality. Birth is a manifestation of one possible self, but we still exist in the egg even now. Every moment until death, new possibilities arise. We find ourselves breaking through yet another barrier, another shell, into an unknown, a new life full of hidden potential... The urge to transform and create, said the ancient Egyptians, manifests itself in the acts of God, in the forms of God, and in the God within all forms. The divine spiritual light shines through us, acts through us, empowers and transforms us. As gods in hiding, humans have access to all manner of transformative potential, but that requires giving up any idea of one's self as a fixed, definable identity. It means experiencing one's essential self not as a thing, but as a process. There is no end to becoming." -- Normandi Ellis Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13951 From: J J Dewey Subject: Perception Zia, Since you believe duality to be a perception that you have risen above and beyond what do you do when you are driving and come to a fork in the road? You obviously cannot turn left or right for to do so would be to perceive duality. Do you therefore just proceed straight ahead full speed and slam into the tree? Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13952 From: RWBH Subject: Re:[OT] Kubrik: Eyes Wide Shut Very interesting you should say this about this film. You do realize Kubrik died a short while ago? None the less...I have an especial interest in the actress Leelee Sobieski who played a young girl in this movie...and later played Joan of Arc on the tv miniseries. All the other reviews made me care less about seeing the movie. But with these comments...maybe I'll have to rent the video brian Judy Reese wrote: "What a film!!" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13953 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Sacrifice Glenys wrote: Jesus said that there is no greater love than laying down your lives for your friends. Note the words 'no greater love'. Judes: Well I must love JJ..because ever since I have been on this list I have been willing to sacrifice my own 'nice guy' reputation for him. I have even had direct correspondence from JJ telling me he DOES NOT NEED support as he can handle all of his own flack, etc. But..I cannot help it..sorry JJ ..and those it offends[i.e. Craig]..it is my 'way' of returning the debt I owe JJ for imparting his truths which have clarified so greatly to me my path. It is 'my way' of expressing love...I am not comfortable with the 'gushy' I love you..I love you mantras..as I feel that is not a sincere way to show love..for it is only words..although uplifting words......actions speak louder than words..IMO. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13954 From: RWBH Subject: Re: Perception It's really a mute question..since she's already driving down the right side of the road. brian J J Dewey wrote: "Zia, Since you believe duality to be a perception that you have risen above and beyond what do you do when you are driving and come to a fork in the road?" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13955 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: To Heal or Not JJ: "If you present a point of view it will always be possible that someone will disagree with you, but that is the price of free discussion." Zia: "And how we endeavor to allow this in another, extending freedom of speech truly, and freedom of thought is important. I am gaining an understanding in walking beside my brother even with disagreements of perception, rather than lock head on. That certainly does not inspire anyone. I will do better next time." I was thinking last night about the number of people who have left the list and knew I had to accept some of the responsibility for it. On the other hand, conflict is a normal part of life and so it follows that avoidance of it is avoidance of life. What we have to do is learn how to manage the conflict in our lives and that will be different for us all according to our individual make-up. Then, as I was musing, I thought about how Jesus would be received today. He was not beyond engaging head on and often used name calling to make his point. One only has to think of his interaction with the Pharisees. His reported actions are even funnier in the Aquarian Gospel. He is in the middle of telling the Pharisees what worms they were and a lawyer interjected and said, 'Rabboni, your words are harsh, and then in what you say you censure us; and why?' So Jesus, not feeling in the least bit mortified at the criticism, turned to him and did a 'Woe unto you masters of the law' discourse. The Gospel goes on to say that the Pharisees, scribes and lawyers resented him for his words and 'poured torrents of abuse on him'. I bet the same thing would happen if he spoke out on this list. So often, we are so spiritually correct and full of ideas on how we should act that the truth is blocked out and people are fearful of speaking out because they may be perceived as unspiritual. Thus 'evil prospers because good people do nothing'. Not that I'm saying we should all act like Jesus when dealing with conflict. I'm sure there were certain groups that needed the shock value of a strong approach whereas he treated true seekers with receptive hearts with great love and tolerance. I guess my point is that we can't be too categorical on how people should behave when dealing with conflict. We might end up berating Jesus or some other master :-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13956 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Soul Contact with each other Paul wrote: Communicating with souls would be nice and ideal, Judes. The masters communicate as souls telepathically. But we are not there yet. We normally communicate with personalities. What is shown on the list is to a great extent mental or personal stuff having little to do with the soul. Besides, do you think souls have quarrels or serious debates among themselves? Souls are masters in their own right. They may have different points of view but not disagreements. What we witness here on the list is filtered from the soul at best. How much does come from the soul is in the final analysis the issue at stake. Judes: I say it starts with us...not criticising you or anyone hear or chastising at all..as I would like to start doing this with each other..I do not believe one has to be a completed Master to start doing this. This would start with 'honesty' or 'onesty' or oneness of speaking with 'one voice'..the voice from soul..instead of the 'two voices' which are our dualistic personalities..over time it would become obvious who is speaking from soul and who isn't..and when..we could then learn to 'hear' and 'see' each other for our real selves. Not saying[for Craig's benefit] that means anyone is going to be seen as a deity or Jesu himself or anything..just who we are as 'souls' [our real selves]. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13957 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re:[OT] Eyes Wide Shut RWBH wrote: You do realize Kubrik died a short while ago? Judes: After seeing this movie..I would say it was HIGHLY possible he was 'taken out' if you know what I mean? Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13958 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Perception Loving greetings to One and All, J J Dewey: Zia, Since you believe duality to be a perception that you have risen above and beyond what do you do when you are driving and come to a fork in the road? You obviously cannot turn left or right for to do so would be to perceive duality. Do you therefore just proceed straight ahead full speed and slam into the tree? Zia: Hahahaaaa, gosh you're funny JJ, I would love to be in front of you when you ask this question??!! Well the fork in the road, is not separate from the road I am traveling, and usually I already know where I am going... so what would be the point in leaving the road and slamming into a tree?? Unless of course you wanted to do that!! :) JJ: "You obviously cannot turn left or right for to do so would be to perceive duality. Perhaps this is a false assumption!" Yes I believe that duality is a perception... now where did I say I had already risen above and beyond... naughty JJ!!! :) Perhaps an analogy might be when traveling the roads and highways it looks like duality.... because we are looking horizontally. Yet jump into an airplane and see the complexes of roads and highways, and what happens to left and right, now a vertical perception. The left and right only holds valid from a horizontal position, and don't turn around either!! Are they all separate roads, or just roads... would I do both of your roads at the fork??... I can only continue to follow one road...... or leave the road as you so eloquently portrayed. Surely the road I take is the one I know will lead to my destination. It is rare to be traveling and not know where I am going... And if unknown wow is inner guidance just brilliant!! To see in my mind duality or oneness has been confused here with choices of the connectedness of all life. Options, potentials, they all still play out in the oneness of all life, just depends upon your perspective and perception. Perhaps you would enjoy having a day free of definitions... no left or right, no good or bad, just as it is presented in front of you. Then the mind might say 'I'll go this way....' You know it's funny to consider that to think of the destination and just be there... in an instant will occur. Thus when John in your book appeared and disappeared... did he make any decisions on left or right turns to reach his destination??? Keeping my focus on the destination draws me to it, with such an inner knowing... that when I come to the fork in the road, it is already known the way to go... it is not a question. Well that's about the best I can do with that... Love to you JJ. Humble servant of God, ZIA traveling along singing a song... with God driving... well sit back enjoy, the scenery... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13959 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Clarification Paul writes: "Who has ever defined or described void or nothingness as where to escape to with our whole being without delay?" That has always been my impression (and I am sure that of others) of what your goal is. Perhaps the phrase "transfer yourself" would be more acceptable? You are welcome to post a couple lines to capsulize how your belief here differs from mine to clarify your position. By the way, why do you think we are here anyway? Do you see the creation of duality as a big mistake or do you just have the view that the creation of duality never really occurred and we are not really here and thus no escape or transference is even necessary? In post # 532 JJ asks Paul: "Paul, I have a question for you. "You often speak of a world or consciousness beyond the dualities where all is one and there is no time and space. Apparently you think we should be there in consciousness even in our dual physical state. "Since you have studied the ancient wisdom you must believe in the seven planes which are the physical/etheric, the astral, mental, intuitional. spiritual, monadic and divine. "On which one of these planes does the oneness you talk about begin to exist as you have been teaching it?" In post # 650 JJ states: "In esoteric literature these are called the formless worlds. The first above the plane of mind is the Intuitional, or Buddhic plane, followed by the Spiritual or Atmic, then Monadic and finally the Divine. "These formless worlds are difficult for us to understand in our earthly state and from a higher point of view have form as ideas have form. They provide the foundations from which all the lower worlds of concrete form are created." John: Now I have heard much of the Void lately and as I stated in an earlier post I explain the Void much as Deepak Chopra explains it. If you read the paragraphs below closely you will see that Deepak Chopra although a product of the Oriental Philosophy does not nor has he ever taught what some have portrayed him of saying. I don't have the time, or inclination of going deeply into this subject but basically at the most fundamental level the Void is the formless worlds JJ speaks of in his posts. Just like the Bible it is easy to pick a couple of paragraphs that fit your argument and interject them. If you read closely what is being said here you will see that we are saying that as human beings we exist in all these levels simultaneously, or they exist in us, although few are aware of it. The way of the Middle Path is to creatively use all levels to further the progress of the Plan, as well as our own. To choose either side, whether it be obsession with the physical, or the Spiritual to the exclusion of the other is what we take issue with. This is like saying the inbreath is good, and the out breathe is bad, and then someone else says your both wrong, it's the gap, or pause in between that is important. I contend that all three are necessary and the exclusion of anyone is a terrible mistake. True Oneness can only result from a Synthesis of the Divine, and Physical acting in balance, and harmony. To quote Deepak Chopra - The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success - pages 20 - 22 cited, from the First Law, which is the Law of Pure Potentiality. The affluence of the universe-the lavish display and abundance of the universe-is the expression of the creative mind of nature. The more tuned in you are to the mind of nature, the more you have access to its infinite, unbounded creativity. But first, you have to go beyond the turbulence of your internal dialogue to connect with that abundant, affluent, infinite, creative mind. And then you create the possibility of dynamic activity while at the same time carrying the stillness of the eternal, unbounded, creative mind. This exquisite combination of silent, unbounded, infinite mind along with dynamic, bounded, individual mind is the perfect balance of stillness and movement simultaneously that can create whatever you want. This coexistence of opposites- stillness and dynamism at the same time- makes you independent of situations, circumstances, people, and things. When you quietly acknowledge this exquisite coexistence of opposites, you align yourself with the world of energy-the quantum soup, the nonmaterial non-stuff that is source of the material world. This world of energy is fluid, dynamic, resilient, changing, still, quiet, eternal, and silent. Stillness alone is the potentiality for creativity; movement alone is creativity restricted to a certain aspect of its expression. But the combination of movement and stillness enables you to unleash your creativity in all directions-wherever the power of your attention takes you. Wherever you go in the midst of movement and activity, carry your stillness within you. Then the chaotic movement around you will never overshadow your access to the reservoir of creativity, the field of pure potentiality. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13960 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Zia: on JJ Zia wrote: To answer your question specifically, Judes, I do not make judgment on JJ the person. I disagree with him on certain points but that does not mean I judge him. And I am too serious about truth to play mental games. My posts and I are like an open book in front of your eyes. Judes: I am the LAST person to say you made judgment on JJ personally...I KNOW we are discussing issues here and not personalities..others here get that confused..not me. I also know that the 'void' topic is the crux of Ramtha's teachings and it would pluck delicate chords with you. I just hope that some day you are able to 'see' some of the fallacies and discrepancies in Ramtha's teachings and THROW them out completely and start all over [like I did]. I think you are going to keep having a hard time trying to tie what JJ is imparting here with Ramtha's teachings with a very neat bow. There will always be a juxtapositional paradox sticking out of the package deal. Nothing more would I like to see than you[my sister on the path] and I see eye-to-eye and I would 'miss' you on a soul level if you left the list. That tells me that you are already a 'part'..as I know I am too...so it is just a matter of the illusion of time playing out for all of us here. Or is time an illusion?...or just more to it than we realize? Love and Fruit: Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13961 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Clairfication - Paul Yu JJ wrote: "Paul writes: "Who has ever defined or described void or nothingness as where to escape to with our whole being without delay?" That has always been my impression (and I am sure that of others) of what your goal is. Perhaps the phrase "transfer yourself" would be more acceptable? You are welcome to post a couple lines to capsulize how your belief here differs from mine to clarify your position. By the way, why do you think we are here anyway? Do you see the creation of duality as a big mistake or do you just have the view that the creation of duality never really occurred and we are not really here and thus no escape or transference is even necessary? Copyright 2000 By J.J. Dewey All Rights Reserved Nothingness is where we came from and where we will return to. Nothingness thus is potentiality itself and not emptiness or vacuum. The reason it is called nothingness is because it is none of the things which can be named or described. The bridge between nothingness and manifestation is oneness. Oneness or the one life, the one being or the one reality is the primeval manifestation of nothingness or actualization of potentiality, if you will. The purpose of oneness is to manifest nothingness by appearing as things or creation. The other aspect of the purpose of oneness is let it all return to itself through which to be back in nothingness. The outgoing from and the incoming into nothingness via oneness make up one cycle of evolution. The nature of nothingness is such that it never ceases to manifest again and again as soon as one cycle is ended. It is an eternal process with beginning and ending at each cycle. Oneness is identifiable on every level of existence owing to the holographic nature of all things. Likewise nothingness is identifiable in every atom as well as in the universe as a whole. We are nothingness and one as well as multiple manifestation of oneness at the same time. Why we are here? why creation and evolution? It is certainly not because of lack. Surely it is owing to the nature of nothingness to manifest. If we had to think up one particular explanation it could be that the potentiality of nothingness is such that overflowing therefrom is a matter of course. Overflowing into manifestation were impossible if one remained one and not appeared as two, then three and finally as countless number of forms. Duality is necessary for oneness to manifest as multiplicity. Duality therefore does happen and is not a mistake. Because duality has never wandered away from oneness. Duality is one by definition and in fact. It is our rational mind that does not perceive it that way due to its separative quality to be transformed in the process of evolution. Human evolution is evolution of consciousness and mind in the final analysis. Our efforts are mainly spent on looking and looking so as to see oneness in duality and all and then to anchor in nothingness which is so full that we simply are stunned in bliss. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13962 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Apology: Paul and Chris Judes wrote: "I wanted an apology on the record to Paul and Chris for saying they were 'dryyy'. I enjoy there postings very much from a soul level. And although..they seem from time to time to be disagreeing with topics brought forward by JJ..they do bring a chance for all of us to search our own souls to clarify if we wish to respond or disagree with them. Many times both of their comments.. add to' and enhance JJ's teachings. And they are both 'great souls..and I have felt 'both' in NJ....even if they are not aware yet that they have been there or will be going there in the future." Hi Judes, It is very moving to witness your apology, Judes. Actually I didn't feel offended at all. I am positive you were doing yourself a favor by apologizing. God bless. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13963 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: The Void, The Nothing and The No-thing May I enter this debate just one more time .. perhaps with a clarification which may explain why there are different perceptions which cause conflict around this subject ..? Within my work with others, I have introduced the term "Zero Point" to assist in people's understanding ... "Zero Point' refers to Neutrality (Perfection) or lack of polarity, velocity, impetus .. where all is energy and "potential" in its unrealised state. ... There are two such points .. one of fullness potential and the other of emptiness potential .. one point is the "no-thing" where all exists in perfect interpenetration the other is the "nothing" which is exactly that .... In both states there is non duality of "subject-object" but there is still a duality in the time- space perception. both are non-differentiated states which can not be defined as I .. but together they make I ... *** The point of absolute non-duality which is the Void ... the interpenetration of the fullness and the emptiness which moves beyond the perceptions of linear time and dimensional space ... *** the Tao, the Life Journey, the journey of Life Experience is the journey between these two points in either direction .. occupying the perception of time and space *** The metaphor for this life journey .. this Tao .. is the in-breath and the out-breath, the mirror shown to us in nature by the tide and the waves .... *** there is consciousness in the state that is the "interpenetration" of positive and negative densities .. the "nothing" and the "no-thing" the consciousness of no subject-object and all/no time-space *** to access this the brain has to comprehend no time/space and move out of linear processing mode .. (this is part of the function of the "right brain") this is the state of self awareness of self not attached to self but not separate from it *** This is the mirror presented to us by life on earth *** The limit of our experience is directly related to our ability to "let go of our attachments" and fully experience the "empty Zero Point" at the end of the out-breath. *** We can only fill a hole with as much water as we have made room for by cleaning out the dirt and rocks *** The physical body is like the bottle ... the dirt and the rocks are our attachments the water ... our "spirit" our "breath" *** It is possible to be in this state of "Void" when one is fully conscious in what people normally refer to as consensus reality .. as in carrying on all of the tasks in daily life such as sitting here at the computer writing this reply. *** This is the essence of full realisation ... it is no great spiritual state .. it is a space of absolute non attachment where each moment gives way to the next in the Tao ... once the limitation of the mind is released. *** We do carry the remembering of this consciousness within the cells of the body .. below the layers of generations of conditioning. *** Duality is a perceptual filter .. a learned belief *** I hope this explanation helps ... Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13964 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: In and out JJ wrote: We dropped from 230 to 224, but then probably at least six new members came in so we lost about 12. Judes: I unsubscribed and re-subscribed twice..so I probably messed up the totals there so 2 out and 2 back in for me. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13965 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: To Heal or Not Loving greetings to One and All, Glenys Lowery writes: snipped... "I bet the same thing would happen if he spoke out on this list. So often, we are so spiritually correct and full of ideas on how we should act that the truth is blocked out and people are fearful of speaking out because they may be perceived as unspiritual. Thus 'evil prospers because good people do nothing'. "Not that I'm saying we should all act like Jesus when dealing with conflict. I'm sure there were certain groups that needed the shock value of a strong approach whereas he treated true seekers with receptive hearts with great love and tolerance. "I guess my point is that we can't be too categorical on how people should behave when dealing with conflict. We might end up berating Jesus or some other master :-)" WOW Glenys, I have so enjoyed this post which to me has come from your heart/soul/spirit/God. I could feel your contemplations and your laughter, you felt so real, rather than just some mental tied together thoughts being put forward - correct of course:) ... it is a beautiful perception you have shared here, and of course ever so true. Gosh if that happened to Jesus, then there is still hope for me!!! That is such a beautiful post of yours Glenys, I will treasure it as my first real insight into you... Love to you, Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13966 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Apology: Paul and Chris Paul wrote: It is very moving to witness your apology, Judes. Actually I didn't feel offended at all. I am positive you were doing yourself a favor by apologizing. God bless. Judes: Putting in on the record too..Paul..it was important for me..I do not like leaving doo-doo under the rug. Laughingly: Judes Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13967 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Zia: on JJ Actually Judes this is what Paul wrote... not me... and I doubt if he has ever been to the Ram... yet you may wish to check that out with him. I have only kept what became truth for me through my LIFE experience from my time with the Ram. And for me it was worth all the money in the world... and more. What price FREEDOM??? Humble servant of God, ZIA Judes: "I am the LAST person to say you made judgment on JJ personally...I KNOW we are discussing issues here and not personalities..others here get that confused..not me." Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13968 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: To Heal or Not * Zia wrote: "I guess my point is that we can't be too categorical on how people should behave when dealing with conflict. We might end up berating Jesus or some other master :-) "WOW Glenys, I have so enjoyed this post which to me has come from your heart/soul/spirit/God. ......... I will treasure it as my first real insight into you... Love to you," Sorry it's taken so long to make an impression, Zia. LOL Actually, after I sent the email, I had another thought that modified my earlier conclusions somewhat. While Jesus did not hesitate to criticize those he thought were in error in the strongest possible terms, the record only tells of him criticizing groups of people (such as the Pharisees, moneylenders, scribes etc.). I can't recall any instance where he criticized individuals in this scathing way. The Rumi quote at the end of this email just came in a while ago. Spirit seems to be helping my brain's machinations :-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- What is justice? To put a thing in its right place. What is injustice? To put a thing in its wrong place. Nothing is vain that God has created, whether it be anger or forbearance or sincere counsel or guile. None of these things is absolutely good, nor are any of them absolutely evil. The usefulness or harm of each depends on the occasion: for this reason knowledge is necessary and useful. Oh, many a punishment inflicted on a poor fellow is more meritorious than a gift of bread or sweetmeats, for sweetmeat eaten unseasonably causes yellow bile, whereas slaps purge him of evil. Give the poor fellow a slap in season: it will save him beheading later. - Rumi Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13969 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Clarification Loving greetings to One and All, Okay so I was the only fool to engage JJ's question of the fork in the road, yet I remember his marvelous post some time back on those three guys trying to work out which way to go, and all paths lead to the destination... God. What I do wish to express here is the profound beauty and upliftment that has occurred in the posts on the void. That out of conflict we have searched deeper and found profound expression and understanding, so that conflict or misunderstanding can be the catalyst to such growth. Paul and Christopher have again so touched my heart with your profound explanations and beautiful pictures. And thank you Christopher for the Ram was not the only one to talk of Point Zero or Zero Point, all of science does as well. And of course to Glenys, who's heartfelt post I am certain touched all hearts... And JWK with a splendid rendition on the void. It seems when pushed, we reach deeper and find greater and more profound expression. I am delighted to be here!! Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13970 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: To Heal or Not Loving greetings to One and All, Actually just maybe the 'scribes' of Jesus' day decided to overlook recording the more 'personal' challenges Jesus may have offered, as perhaps we might need to do as well... yet when a large group is involved and perhaps a great lesson then it is recorded and noted. Just a thought!!! :) Well I can hope anyway :) And oh that Rumi at the end of your post... oh that is so brilliant... would love to meet that guy :) Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13971 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Zia: on JJ Caution! Perception may be skewed in the eye of the beholder. Time to 'see' the optometrist? ;) Diane Zia wrote: "Actually Judes this is what Paul wrote... not me... and I doubt if he has ever been to the Ram... yet you may wish to check that out with him. I have only kept what became truth for me through my LIFE experience from my time with the Ram. And for me it was worth all the money in the world... and more. What price FREEDOM???" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13972 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: re: Zia: on JJ Zia wrote: "Actually Judes this is what Paul wrote..." Judes: Well it is too confusing to figure out who said what now.....and was from yesterday which is the PAST..gone..on to page 2. I just wanted to clarify I was not judging you or anyone on the list. I respect your journey and definitely your 'life experiences', Zia....and am not discrediting that at all..Just saying that the teaching here[this list] and Ramtha's teachings to me..seem to not coincide in many major areas. So why try to say they are from the same 'well'. Which 'well' is the right 'well'? Only experiential experimentation of the principles will prove that out. I know I would rather aspire to NJ than the 23rd universe..where ever that is??? and hang out with JZ and Ramtha..just my choice..I hope you can reconcile the differences without 'beating up JJ' to see it your and Ramtha's way. I think he[JJ] is pretty 'set' on his truths though due to intense confirmations and revelation. And I am not criticizing you for trying to convince him you are right. I just know that the 'wells' or not the same or there would be NO discrepancies between the 'truths' that are brought up from them. My experience with 'initiations' with the Brotherhood is that with obtaining certain insights..then 'key phrases' are truths and principles are then gleaned and another who has drunk of the same well has the exact same terminology[sometimes word-for-word] for the experience or truth imparted. It is almost uncanny..and then 'it takes one who has tasted..to see and recognize another who has tasted' of the same waters. So..it is like a 'password' to others that are on the path. And only 'they' know the passwords. Sounds snobby..did not intend that..just that Ramtha's 'stuff' has 'key words' that are 'triggers' to the soul and what comes form one's own soul gets mixed with his deceptions. This is strong talk. about Ramtha and does not mean that I project this on to you..or I TRY not to..but..this course is the 'well' the REAL 'well'....and whether Ramtha's is or not..well..that is up to each to decide for themselves. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13973 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: To Heal or Not * Zia wrote: "Actually just maybe the 'scribes' of Jesus' day decided to overlook recording the more 'personal' challenges Jesus may have offered, as perhaps we might need to do as well..." Hmmm........maybe........and yet the gospels are full of personal incidents, both in the life of Jesus and the lives of those around him. That's one of the great things about the gospel - the personal touches. The authors would have had to have made conscious decisions to be selective about Jesus' personal challenges to people and I can't think of a reason why they would want to. Anyway, who can know for sure? Only Jesus and he's a lurker who's too scared to become an active participant because we'd tell him he wasn't spiritual/good enough. LOL Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- God is the lead dancer and the soul is the partner completely attuned to the rhythm and patterns set by the partner. She does not lead, but neither does she hang limp like a sack of potatoes. - Thomas Merton Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13974 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: re: Zia: on JJ Loving greetings to One and All, Ahhh Judes, poor JJ I am beating up on him ehhh, actually I think he is probably a wonderful cuddly teddy bear!!! And no I never thumped the living daylights out of my bear!! I see only ONE WELL, ONENESS, and at the risk of further repetition the magnificent well of the void... and yes it is all within us, and we will indeed receive the same messages... for it is only ONE WELL. The RAM in my humble opinion, taught many similar things, to look to the God within and none other... no other teacher... and he put forward some dewzies for us to test against our soul/spirit/God. And the Ram is still doing that, and most are still responding in fear, rather than trusting the soul/spirit/God within. And the patience and love of the Ram, unequalled in my lifetime. Yes we all have different experiences. And no I have no desire to reject what through very practical and demonstrable experiences, became such a profound inner knowing and trust of who and what I am. Thank you for your concern for me, although it is totally unnecessary, for I am indeed capable of looking after this vehicle and enjoying the expression of LIFE. 23rd Universe... the Ram simply stretched my imagination... so I was ready to explore this one! Wording is interpretation... and if we all said the same thing, in exact wording, well my beloved friend I for one would find this place very boring. I love Paul, and Christopher and JWK and JJ and all those on the list, with their unique perspective and unique interpretation, and as we understand the wording we find the picture is the same, behind the words... for it is all ONE. Well I sincerely wonder at times what is real and what is not... often in the end analysis it is not the wording at all, but the frequencies imparted from the higher realms that in time appear in one's consciousness... and all the words in the world in the end just fill in time!!! It matters not to me what the Ram is teaching, the truth is what I gain from application of any given 'teaching' or as I prefer understanding. Then it is my own knowing, and I need not worry how my teacher or someone else's teacher is perceived. In fact I don't have a teacher anymore, but for soul/spirit/God within. Yet nature and all that is... are also my teachers... for I gain understanding from the simplest of things. You know surprising as it may seem, JJ has also gained from me, and I from him. It is never a one way street, even in consciousness. That's the beauty of life. Sharing our piece of the puzzle, so we can all get to view the completed picture. Humble servant of God, ZIA Judes: Well it is too confusing to figure out who said what now.....and was from yesterday which is the PAST..gone..on to page 2. I just wanted to clarify I was not judging you or anyone on the list. Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13975 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Zia: on JJ Zia: Ahhh Judes, poor JJ I am beating up on him ehhh, actually I think he is probably a wonderful cuddly teddy bear!!! And no I never thumped the living daylights out of my bear!! Judes: I meant 'beating' a dead horse to get him to see it your way! Of course, we all know he is a cute,, adorable cuddly teddy bear..gooshy-go-goo! Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13976 From: Diane Linen Subject: The Lessons In Life The Lessons in life turns me into a Less-on Less on my mind Less on my view of my ego Less on my importance as a cell in life Less on the importance of my view of how I should be Less on the importance of my opinions Less on the thoughts in my mind Less on my view of my soul Less on my world as I have constructed it in my thoughts for me Less on the material I thought define me Less on the thoughts I thought define me Less on the image I taught my children as the truth Less on past as it is no more Less on the future as it is not yet Less on the outcome as it is assured Less on emotions as it possesses me Less on cult-ure as it separates me Less on thinking as it hides me from me Less on pain as it is only a thought refrain Less on caution as I am the cause Less on blame as it creates only pain Less on my needs and wants as I am supplied Less on forgiving without forgetting as I cannot get what I do not give Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13977 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Tomatoes for Ramtha Zia wrote: You took quite a gamble introducing a semi-quotation from the Ram?? Look out for those future tomatoes my friend!!! Judes: Keep posting them..I will get my tomatoes..Sorry..you are going to have to put up with me....the semi-quote that Mark posted does not have logical validity for me anymore as I read this quote 12+ years ago..and it did 'sound' good then. Do you really think billions of souls are laid out on some plane 'thinking they are dead? Okaaay... You quote him..I will fill in the holes or point out the discrepancies.....I think the billions of souls one is a bit....over-obvious to even discuss here Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13978 From: (Jesus Christ) Subject: Hello Just lurking, Glenys jc Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13979 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re:[OT] A.F.F. Conference in Seattle When: April 27-29, 2000 Where: Seattle Program: Cults & The Millennium:Stories of Healing: Leaving Ramtha's School of Enlightenment An Age for Lucifer: Predatory Spirituality and the Quest for Godhead www.csj.org Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13980 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Hello Loving greetings to One and All, From: JesusIAM@... Subject: [keys-l] Hello "Just lurking, Glenys" jc Ahhh haahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa well done, welcome my beautiful friend!!! LOL oh I love the sense of humor....... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13981 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Hello From: JesusIAM@... Subject: [keys-l] Hello "Just lurking, Glenys" jc Judes writes: Very clever..but..he is part of the list though...he speaks through all of us from time to time....he is our greatest supporter and an avid 'keyster'... Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13982 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Hello Xavier!!! You're back! I've missed you. Still stuck in that same old past life though, I see. LOL Love Glenys Jesus Christ wrote: "Just lurking, Glenys" Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13983 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Clarification Zia writes, "The void then is the container of all the thoughts of God, or better put 'The Mind of God'. Like a point of transition, God-thought - creation unfoldment. The point at whichcreation is poised to come into manifestation." This sounds the same as what some others on the list have called "the Well", or what the song calls the point of light, within the mind of God. Now it seems to me, that a point is a THING and that this "thing" does not start arguments, on list. Perhaps we all just need to agree on our terms, at least as far as writings on this list go. In some of my older writings, I refer to perfection as being an apex, a point of being that we ever seek but can only achieve at infinity (an infinite distance away even to a Master). The void or "nothing", on the other hand, seems to describe a state of being that is undesirable and unachievable, judging from the responses on list. For the sake of peace, can we all adjust our Keyster vocabulary to reflect this? Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13984 From: "Craig Tholson" Subject: Re: Perception From Mr. Dewey: Zia, Since you believe duality to be a perception that you have risen above and beyond what do you do when you are driving and come to a fork in the road? You obviously cannot turn left or right for to do so would be to perceive duality. Do you therefore just proceed straight ahead full speed and slam into the tree? Answer to Mr. Dewey: When you come to the place where the branch in the road is quite apparent, you cannot go ahead. You must go either one way or the other. For now if you go straight ahead, the way you went before you reached the branch, you will go nowhere. The whole purpose of coming this far was to decide which branch you will take now. The way you came no longer matters. It can no longer serve. No one who reaches this far can make the wrong decision, although he can delay. And there is no part of the journey that seems more hopeless and futile than standing where the road branches, and not deciding on which way to go. It is but the first few steps along the right way that seem hard, for you have chosen, although you still may think you can go back and make the other choice. This is not so. A choice made with the power of Heaven to uphold it cannot be undone. Your way is decided. There will be nothing you will not be told, if you acknowledge this. From ACIM. Love, Craig Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13985 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Clarification Rick wrote: "The void or "nothing", on the other hand, seems to describe a state of being that is undesirable and unachievable, judging from the responses on list. For the sake of peace, can we all adjust our Keyster vocabulary to reflect this?" To do this puts a peculiarly secular Christian definition on both God and "The Void and immediately precludes all those of any other religious upbringing .. including some sections of the Christian Faith Thereby immediately re-creating the Schism between schools of spiritual and religious thought. I repeat, the Void, the "nothing" and the "no-thing" are different "Zero Points" the void finds a close definition in "Atman" which is the pinnacle of all Eastern Philosophy Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13986 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Clarification Loving greetings to One and All, Rick Audette The void or "nothing", on the other hand, seems to describe a state of being that is undesirable and unachievable, judging from the responses on list. For the sake of peace, can we all adjust our Keyster vocabulary to reflect this? Zia: Sounds like a peace at any price deal ... undesirable and unachievable... says who??? :) Your choice Rick... each will see it according tosoul/spirit/God and that connection or perhaps just not at all. One thing I have discovered is aiming for the highest, well at least you will get as close as possible?? You got to hand it to the 'easterners'... that could make the void so inviting that people spent lifetimes striving to reach it??!! :) You never did anything for the sake of peace... why now??? :) Humble servant of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13987 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: The Void .. by Britannica VOID, in mysticism and religion, a state of "pure consciousness" in which the mind has been emptied of all particular objects and images; also, the undifferentiated reality (a world without distinctions and multiplicity) or quality of reality that the emptied mind reflects or manifests. The concept, with a subjective or objective reference (sometimes the two are identified), has figured prominently in mystical thought in many historical periods and parts of the world. The emptying of the mind and the attainment of an undifferentiated unity is a theme that runs through mystical literature from the Upanisads (ancient Indian meditative treatises) to medieval and modern Western mystical works. The concepts of hs? in Taoism, sunyata in Mahayana Buddhism, and the En Sof in Jewish mysticism are pertinent examples of "emptiness," or "holy Nothing," doctrines. Buddhism, with its basic religious ultimate of Nirvana, as well as its development of the sunyata doctrine, has probably articulated emptiness more fully than any other religious tradition; it has also affected some modern Western considerations of the concept. A good deal of 19th-20th century Western imaginative literature has been concerned with emptiness, as has a certain type of Existentialist philosophy and some forms of the Death of God movement. The particular meanings of "emptiness" vary with the particular context and the religious or cultural tradition in which it is used. Encyclopaedia Britannica Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13988 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Clarification * Zia wrote: "To Rick - You never did anything for the sake of peace... why now??? :)" I don't see it as doing something for the sake of peace but sacrificing the needs of the few (to be right on a particular matter) to the needs of the many who just want to end all this and get on with things. That is why I stopped arguing. I felt very strongly about the hypocrisy and double standards being displayed on the list and to be quite frank, I could have droned on ad nauseum as some are continuing to do. But I saw that it wasn't achieving anything for the group as a whole and stopped. We can constantly repeat our own version of truth as we see it as an act of self service until people leave in frustration or we can decide to serve others by yielding to the desires of the group as a whole. If we can't do it here, in this small way, we may as well give up the idea of forming molecules sometime in the future. We have to take responsibility for our actions and modify our behaviour accordingly (I notice I'm the only one who's done that on the list) or continue to act in a manner that not only discredits us but also the truth for which we claim to stand. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- God is the lead dancer and the soul is the partner completely attuned to the rhythm and patterns set by the partner. She does not lead, but neither does she hang limp like a sack of potatoes. - Thomas Merton Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13989 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Clarification Christopher's terms, "the Void, the "nothing" and the "no-thing" are different "Zero Points" If you said Alpha and Omega points, you'd get my vote, but I just can't put zero and point together. Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13990 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Clarification Rick wrote: "Christopher's terms, "the Void, the "nothing" and the "no-thing" are different "Zero Points" If you said Alpha and Omega points, you'd get my vote, but I just can't put zero and point together." OK .. Rick ... if "nothing" is either an Alpha or Omega point and no-thing is the other Alpha or Omega point ... Then ... I Am is both the Alpha and the Omega .... or, as I defined, the interpenetration .. "the sum of all expressed in naught" (this is not a typo .. nAught .. not nOught) does this help Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13991 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: To heal or not TheTripleGoddess wrote: "To this day, his mother and father and sister (and the rest of the family) are suffering with their grief and I ask you all to remember them in your prayers if you could." It is true that the death of a child is one of the hardest trials we can be called upon to bear, no matter how strong our faith. I'd be happy to keep the family in my heart as I say the Song and visit New Jerusalem, Bonnie. love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- God is the lead dancer and the soul is the partner completely attuned to the rhythm and patterns set by the partner. She does not lead, but neither does she hang limp like a sack of potatoes. - Thomas Merton Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13992 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Clarification Rick pondered: If you said Alpha and Omega points, you'd get my vote, but I just can't put zero and point together. Judes: How about 'point of universal light revealing the Source of All'? Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13993 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: [Judes] Re: Clarification you wrote: "How about 'point of universal light revealing the Source of All'?" When seen in meditation, this explosive point of light is actually the remembering contained within the cells of the body of the penetration of the ovum by the sperm that resulted in conception ... and the energy released at that point of penetration ... This is why it is sometimes thought of as "creation" or the big bang ... you get a similar point of light .. (well .. lots of them actually) when someone thumps you hard enough on the head, Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13994 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Clarification I was just thinking Universal Mind, myself Judes and this term has been used for hundreds of years without a conflict. Just a thought! Your Friend, John Judes: How about 'point of universal light revealing the Source of All'? Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-11/13995 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: The Void .. by Britannica Yes, but all of these definitions describe a state of consciousness, which is a THING on the Cosmic physical plane. Sometimes your descriptions (and Zia's and Paul's) make this void sound good. Other times it sound like something out of the mouth of Philo. All I am saying is that I think we are all trying to get on the same page and that we have the opportunity here to standardize definitions, so that all of mankind, east and west, can be on the same page. We can do it, set a new standard. Words like Nirvana have different schools of interpretation. Shakyamuni Buddha and the Mahayana school teach one form, which I can agree with but between the two, there was a period where the term was corrupted and it is this corrupted version that is so quickly picked up on by many, to their detriment. The Dark Ones are big on corrupting original teachings. If we want to bring more light into the world, we can start here and now to weed out misunderstood truths by giving the right definitions. People that produce dictionaries will be the first to tell you that their definitions are not based on the true meaning of words, so much as they are on current, popular usage. In the Oneness of soul, we read from the same page. There should be a way to translate the page into a physical page that also says the same to each that reads it. If not, what chance do we have of bringing heaven and earth together. Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ The only really natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:* I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13996 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Clarification "The void or "nothing", on the other hand, seems to describe a state of being that is undesirable and unachievable, judging from the responses on list. For the sake of peace, can we all adjust our Keyster vocabulary to reflect this? Rick" Is void or nothingness just a matter of vocabulary to be voted on? It is rather a concept to be grasped if at all possible. If not possible leave it alone for future reference instead of erasing it from the face of the earth. It was none of us who came up with this concept in the first place. No one has the right or the power to get rid of it. Who are the list that responded unfavorably toward this concept? How many have spoken in this regard? Besides, is it a question of majority rule here? And is peace to be achieved at the expense of truth? Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /2000-04-10/13997 From: "Judy Reese" Subject: Re: Support for the Debators Jean wrote: I like to think to just let the ones that argue consistently due to ego and pride and such, let it in one ear and out the other, they too have there story and need to be heard, but they are on there own path and may not be ready for it all in this life, so the only way they can feel safe is to bring up conflict. But that is how it goes it doesn't mean we have to agree. Judes: I have been one of the debators involved in the discussions on this list that were prompted by: 1) Zia bringing up 'the void' and 'cause and effect having no validity there..something like that 2) JJ disagreed and posted 'The Bottomless Pit' This IMO, is perfectly alright on both their parts...others of us..prompted I am sure ONLY by our spirits responded are felt impelled to add to either Zia or JJ's presentations. Some of us engaged in debate and that in itself is a learning experience. WE learned a lot from these discussions...many learned the importance of clarifying their stances or how much the stance meant to them. All around it was healthy and productive. The ONLY problem that I see from having discussions that many find controversial is the attitudes of those that CHOOSE to not participate..either they have no opinion or feel that someone already made the point they were going to make..so why repeat it? Revelation comes in times of 'tension points'..as JJ mentioned about his 'healing experience' and I have of my 'rod of steel' experience during Jane's passing. Not that we want to create 'tension points..but sometimes they are inevitable in life..but can be a time for the greatest growth and enlightenment. What I find disheartening, distracting...and totally not understood by me..is the attitude of "I am above this type of behaviour'...or 'I have to be in a peaceful constantly hypocritically loving environnment or I stress out or whatever'....no..I do understand it..I really do that some wish the debate to hurry up and get over with..but rushing anything will not lead to its completion. I have found the side-comments of those not participating more hurtful, snide, unloving, unsupportive..and really a passive way to take a side in the debates without having the courage to make a stand..and much more un-loving than ANY remarks made by one of the active debators..... I find that 'sheepish' in action. You may see 'timidity' as a higher trait than courage to speak a truth from one's heart, spirit, or personal experiences; and then hide behind that as being loving or peace-loving..but I do not..I see it as self-pious. Like I have said before..I am not here to make friends as much as speak truth to each other. I feel those of us who joined IN the discussions have all grown closer to each other on a soul-level even though we may stil