1999 - WEEK 49 Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8804 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Salvation, Atonement and Forgiveness. We read the teachings, We read the bible we remember our past ... and ask the question .. from the memories of our bodies and from what we are taught ... "Why would I want to achieve the consciousness of the Christ when I have been taught that the first of that consciousness was crucified by his own tribe ..." and nearly 2000 years of Western Politics and Religion is based on that ... Oh yes ... the mind may understand differently .. but the key words trigger the remembering of the body and my body has no understanding of or resonance with "rising from the dead" BTW ... if "He died for my sins" ... am I supposed to feel guilty? and now, as we approach Christmas, how can I reconcile with the celebration of the birth of one who is to be crucified for speaking his truth? (Just a few thoughts that have come out of the bodies of many I have worked with) Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8805 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: What if ..? Why is it that, in Western Society, we need to understand, we need to "work at it" we need proof? is it because what we have been taught to 'believe' is foreign to the essence of our bodies ... Is this why spirituality is a search rather than a state of being-ness Is this why we can never 'achieve' spirituality ... What if were already are "spiritual", "enlightened" and all we have to do is accept the truth that "what we are looking for is that which is looking and what we are looking out of" What if all of the spiritual texts are not telling us what we should be seeking but are reminding us of what we already are ... or is that possibility too much for the ego of the false guru What if our search for self acceptance is based solely on the remembering that, as children, our parents could not accept what they saw when they looked into the infant's eyes? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8806 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: What if ..? Christopher my friend, this is a pretty old Doctrine. I sounds very similar to Deepak Chopra, quoting Gabriel Kibran. At the least it is an Ancient Doctrine. The East teaches the Right Brain, and they dream beautiful Spiritual Dreams, yet they have lived for centuries in utter depredation. The West follows the Left Brain, the Way of Action, and they dream the Dream of Achievement, and Prosperity. Both are Extremist Dreamist! The Brotherhood has long taught the Way of the Middle Pillar, that the Right Brain is the Feminine, Womb, and Source of Creativity, but lacks the ability to effect, or demonstrate its dreams of creativity. A dream here, no matter how beautiful will just remain a dream, unless it receives the Kiss of its Lover, the Man of Action! The Bridegroom! On the other hand the Left Brain is Masculine, Aggressive, Assertive, caring little for Artistic Expression. It Achieves. Ah! but what if one where to dream of a Marriage Feast, and joined the two, in Holy Matrimony. Ah! What if. The feminine Right could Create, and the Left could put it into effect, and demonstrate it!, and the Two Twain, could, and would live in perfect balance. What if! What if! What if! Would I just be dreaming, or would the dream still be dreaming me? I find some of your work interesting Christopher, although I can't say it's anything new. It is true that we are seeking to become what we already are in POTENTIAL. IMHO I think this is where you are missing the point, and confusing Potential with the ability to Demonstrate, and this is where the True test lies. If we are already what we are seeking to become can we demonstrate it. If not we are still just Potential! Can you look out into the Empty Space in your Room and Materialize a Beautiful Red Rose, out of thin air, for your lover ,or how about a loaf of bread. Can you miraculously heal the infirm. Can you make the blind to see. The deaf to hear. Can you feed the Starving Children of the World, or alleviate Poverty. Can you touch the Soul of another and change their life is some great way, they will never forget. Can you heal their ignorance, or remove the fear of a child that's parents have just been murdered, by telling them about their genetic disposition, or their Spiritual Potential. Theories are fine, they're candy for the mind, but how on earth will you ever change the world to a better place with them alone. How will the Purpose of Our Father be established on Earth, through theories, or Potential. Potential Energy is a good thing, but it must be converted into kinetic energy on this plane to be effective, and have any lasting positive effect. Potential, Kinetic, Radiant, and Beyond, could this be a path? What if, one dreamed they were awake, but they were still dreaming, a beautiful dream indeed, yet never the less still dreaming, deeply dreaming. Your Friend, John Wayne Kline dba Creative Dynamics Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8807 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: What if ..? When I was a kid, a favorite game, my siblings and I played, we called, "Hide and seek, in the dark". We'd turn all the lights out, upstairs, and close the drapes and then play the standard hide and seek game. When found, we shouted boo. It was a cut above the daylight version, because of the added thrills. So, before time began, God is infinite being, no need to "DO" anything at all. Why bother to create anything? If you add anything to infinity, it's still infinity. Or is it? Modern math has a name for higher forms of infinity (Alephs, I think is the term). So, in desiring to become infinitely more infinite, a thrilling game of hide and seek in the dark ensues. The reflected consciousness starts out completely in the dark and must work it's way back from clod to God. The human body has an organ that keeps the brain from communicating directly with the spiritual realm. It is called the etheric web or veil. As one evolves spiritually, so too does the ability to open the veil, but it can also be rent prematurely. Why have such an organ? Because, it's not the same game, if you turn the lights on. We don't like it if somebody tells us how the movie ends, before we have seen it. Of course, we have the free will to turn the lights on, but then that puts us out of the game and the fun of becoming infinitely more infinite. It's God's game and I'm enjoying playing it, so I don't mind stubbing my toes on the occasional bad bits of DNA or even playing out this life in a soap opera. You can't be a real lover if love has never made you cry. If your grandfather fought in the war and it's making you angry, then have a good cry about it, but then move on. There are far worse genetic mishaps that could have happened to you. If you are aiming for something and miss, (sin) because your arrow is not straight, it's windy, the bow is weak, you do not curse theses factors, but adjust and allow for (forgive) them and take another best shot at the target. Ok, so we can see that DNA, your parents, your religion, all contribute to missing the mark. Are you suggesting how to adjust or are you saying to give up shooting at the target? That you put so much energy into improving yourself and those you work with would suggest that you want to hit the bulls eye, but to do that we need to keep shooting for it. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8808 From: J J Dewey Subject: Hidden Teachings In Proverbs we read: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing." Proverbs 25:2 The master teachers and prophets down through the ages have often had to adjust the wording of their teachings so everything they literally teach is true, yet within these teachings are inner thoughts that are concealed to later be revealed by the Spirit of truth. This was the case with the parables of Jesus. The people heard them and thought that they were just sweet simple little stories, yet Jesus told his disciples "hearing they hear not neither do they understand." In other words, he told them that there were deeper meanings in the parables than meet the eye. This is also the case with many of the scriptures. For thousands of years people have read them and incorporated the obvious meaning. This obvious meaning spoke to their consciousness, culture and point in evolution, but the core meaning was often different than seemed to appear. The hidden meaning was generally an idea that their hearts were not prepared for, but would be someday. Let us take for example the principle of punishment for sin which, in the true reality, is merely an effect of some cause. In the Bible it was written this way: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Mark 3:29 Then the Mormon scriptures give a similar meaning: "That ye may not be cursed with a sore cursing; and also, that ye may not incur the displeasure of a just God upon you, unto the destruction, yea, the eternal destruction of both soul and body." II Nephi 1:22 "...and not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh." II Nephi 2:29 "And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment." Jacob 7:18 "And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not." D&C 29:44 All of these scriptures make it sound as if the bad buys are going to suffer whatever damnation is for all eternity, but such is not the case. There are many who already know within their hearts that that if God is truly a loving Father that he would torment no one for ever and ever. The interesting point is that this point was clarified through the translator of the Book of Mormon himself. Here is a revelation Joseph Smith received: "Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore-- Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment." D&C 19:5-12 What are we told here? We are told that "Eternal" and "Endless" are two names that God uses and because He created the laws of cause and effect that all punishments (or effect) are Eternal because the creator of them is Eternal. The explanation "is that it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment." So what have we here? Both the Bible and Book of Mormon are written in such a way to make it sound as if there will be punishment of eternal duration, but when the truth is revealed we learn that it was in the plan of God to allow it to sound that way to have an effect on the hearts of struggling humanity. The same is true of reincarnation. There have been many teachers who have understood the truth of this teaching, but have written to make it sound like there is only one life. Such teachers have wanted to avoid the negative effect on the average person of turning apathetic in hope of waiting for his next life to make the great effort. Even the recent book A Course In Miracles cleverly does this. It makes it sound like there is only one life, but if you read it carefully you will see that it is not really saying this at all. But to create the effect desired by the author, the doctrine of multiple lives had to be avoided. Joseph Smith discouraged the belief in reincarnation to the masses yet veiled it in his writings calling it "eternal lives." He also taught it privately as evidenced by the following: "During our talks he (Lorenzo Snow) told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or his oracle." Diary of Orson F. Whitney June 8, 1889 Fortunately, humanity has evolved to the point that the major truths no longer need to be veiled in mystery, but can be plainly taught. I am indeed thankful to live in this time where we can learn with plainness and give out what we have received without fear of being thrown to the lions the next day. So what have we established so far? Hopefully we have created the point that what the scriptures seem to say may not be what they are really saying. It appears from the scriptures that there will be punishment of eternal duration. The Truth: There will be an end to any punishment or suffering. It appears that Jesus "saved the world from sin." The Truth: He did, but not in the way people think. He merely demonstrated truths that will eventually deliver the world from certain errors.. It appears that When we have forgiveness of sins that effects disappear. The Truth: True forgiveness of sins as taught in the scriptures means to recognize your mistakes and cease making them. This dispels fear and guilt which are created by illusion and have no real existence, but effects which are real remain until they are neutralized by new cause. Finally we are brought to the core of Sterling's question, about baptism and atonement, but I thought it was necessary to prepare the hearts of believers of scripture for the possibility that the truth may be different than it seems to appear. Continued in Part IV tomorrow Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8809 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: RE: What if ..? The bride to be shows herself to the groom to be with charm trying to get closer to him. The groom to be begins to talk about his ambition to change the world as if he alone could achieve all the great things of his dream. The meeting of the two supposedly lovers ended in being farther apart from each other. What went wrong? Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8810 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: What if ..? What went wrong, nothing at all. When the Spirit truly moves upon one, that one is inspired by Spirit, to Action. On the other hand when Illusion moves upon the Waters, The Voice speaks, back to sleep, my Dear One, back to sleep, dream of what you are in potential, you have nothing to do at all, but sleep. What if, What if? This is only normal, how long did the Creator Sleep the Long Sleep, in the Coma, before being inspired to Create, Creation. If Jesus Christ had chosen sleep, over action, today the world would not even know his name, my friend. Paul, what went wrong? Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8811 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: [John Wayne Kline] What if ...? *** The personality I (left brain) who writes this has learned that if I manifest something "out of thin air" (the no-thing) then I either create the negative pole of this somewhere else .. or teleport what I have "created" from somewhere else .. *** The personality I who writes this has learned .. that by speaking my truth to a group of puberty aged school children by speaking my hopes, fears, and dreams ... by sharing my experiences ... the class scholastic average increased by 15% absenteeism decreased behavioural problems decreased the class teachers took less stress leave ... *** The personality I who writes this has learned that a teacher (one of my group) who applied these principles to a group of "retarded" children ages 6 and 7 found the average spelling age of the class increased by 18 months after 3 weeks .. and several on Ritalin had no further need for the drug. *** The personality I who writes this has learned that a teenager's terror of cold water could be traced back to a memory of her mother who was immersed by doctors in a bath of ice at the age of 6 and now she has no fear of cold water and can bath her own child ... *** The personality I who writes this has learned that a woman's fear of rape stemmed from the rape of her mother which resulted in her conception .. a genetic memory .. and now she has no fear of men .. and her son is off ADD(h) treatment *** The personality I has learned that by recognising the projections placed on my own childhood it has been able to watch with awe and wonder the remembering and the wisdom of a child .. and allowed that child to remind it what it once knew and had been forced to forget. *** The personality I has learned that through a teacher dealing with her own childhood issues, a child diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic was allowed to speak her truth .. and is now free of all medication *** The personality I has learned that a woman dying of cancer ... who faced her rememberings of being forced, as a child into bestiality by her father, and expressed them .. has been in full remission for the last 24 months ... *** The personality I has learned that a child who was bound in the gouged out womb of her murdered mother by her deranged father .. can understand, forgive .. and work as a successful grief and trauma counsellor *** These things and more has the personality I learned that the right brained I already knew ... *** and neither have any joy of their own but experience the joy of all of those who have allowed the freedom of their own remembering *** and then allowed that for others *** action through inaction a remembering of the most ancient of truths. *** Because, if the personality I had not remembered and made real these rememberings *** How much of this would have been possible? *** The personality I has learned how a woman carried the nightmares of her grandfather who was forced for his own survival to be part of a Nazi squad which committed attrocities on small children ... was afraid of men .. and children ... and of having a child .... and now that woman is the mother of anunda *** Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania * anunda@anunda.com * http://www.anunda.com/notebook.htm Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8812 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: [John Wayne Kline] What if ...? I think I missed something.................. Chris Wynter wrote: The personality I (left brain) who writes this has learned that if I manifest something "out of thin air" (the no-thing) then I either create the negative pole of this somewhere else .. or teleport what I have "created" from somewhere else .." Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8813 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: The Brotherhood *** The personality I have learned that beyond "The Great White Brotherhood" and "The Dark Brothers" *** I have brothers who are of all colours and yet are of no colour *** and who do not need to cover their heads with hoods ... *** Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8814 From: Christopher Wynter Subject (OT) The Ancient Truth I am Innocent, I am birthless, deathless, eternal; the baseless base of beginnings the sure foundation unmeasured the causeless Cause of causation the Living Root of illusion. All these am I And other things unmentioned - The sum total of reality expressed in Nought; unmoved, unquestioned, undefined, I am Omnicient. Veiled by the robes of empty space I dream the troubled nightmare of Creation's Plan To wake and find Creation's Plan dissolved again in me ... Of me you little know, and yet I am the Sum of all that has been, is, or yet to come - the Plan, the Planner and the Planned For - all in one. I am the no-thing I, the one before the beginning, The word unspoken in my Name; I am The All Pervading Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania * anunda@anunda.com * http://www.anunda.com/notebook.htm Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8815 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: [~B] What if ...? Simply stated ... if all exists as a potential ... or is already existant, and all is in balance ... then the moment I "create" something ... or "bring it into this dimension" I have taken it out of the "whole" .. in which case its opposite must exist somewhere else ... or I have moved something which already exists separate in this dimension from one place to another (ie "stolen it") You haven't missed anything .. it is a concept not easily translated into words of common usage ... but once the concept, and the effects are understood, the reason for so much apparent negativity in the world is easily understood Christopher Brian wrote: "I think I missed something..." Post No. keys-l: /1999-49/8816 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: [Rick] Re: What if ..? Hello Rick .. I hope what I have posted may have helped clarify for you what you ask below ... Can I pose the question another way ... "How much energy is consumed every day holding these memories under some sort of code of silence or denial ... trying to cover them with some other belief so that you can justify your feelings" In other words .. if I acknowledge all of these genetic mutations that keep me separate from full realisation of my potential, my divinity, my one-ness If I acknowledge these learned behavioural patterns do I need to learn anything ... and how much energy (currently used for repression) will be available for expression. For many of us, (myself included), instead of accepting that there can be another way .. that we can discern and learn from past experiences .. (and grow in our bringing into consciousness the concept of the infinite which is the ultimate thrill of remembering) we go over and over past patterns ... just to see if they are true .. or to see if we got it right .. or because we are stuck in some unknown groove Humankind (for the most part) spends most of its time and energy killing itself, trying to avoid the death it fears most. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8817 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: (OT) Practical Business Opportunity First let me apologize for the length of this post, it will take up some space. Recently I realized that I had a great deal of work to do in the future concerning the Teachings of JJ Dewey, and the fulfillment of my own mission in life. My problem was how to support my family while giving my best to the work which I had accepted. Since I'm a practical person, I followed the procedure outlined below. First I brainstormed for a business that would allow me freedom of movement, and to come into contact with many people, some of which would be very influential. It had to be something where the Molecular Structure could stand out, and be used as a Model. It also had to serve more than an income for my family. Above all it had to have unlimited growth potential so that I could bring other Keysters, (those studying, and promoting the teachings of JJ Dewey) those working in the Fathers Vineyard into it, so they could be afforded the same freedom, and opportunity I sought. So what do you do with an order this big. I do a lot of work in Graphic Design so I looked toward that area, and the Internet. I planned out a business to the finest detail. The problem was I didn't have the financing available to put this new business venture into practice, and I knew it! I had done everything in my power, and found myself at an impasse. So I called on the Father in prayer. I entered the silence with all the above information, and then emptied my mind, after planting it gently in the Cosmic Womb of Creation.. Afterwards, I closed my prayer with the usual salutation. Not my Will, but Thy Will Be Done. That evening a young lady came to my home. She introduced herself, and asked me if I could build her a Web Presence. Of course, I said yes. She said, Do you know how hard it is to start a business. I chuckled! She had just left a place in town that wanted $500 to build her Web Site. She told me that her brother-in-law had a wood working shop, and made small planes, sail boats, and trains, among other wood crafts. She then produced photographs, and told me she had been selling the heck out of em on Ebay. A large company had contacted her, asking how many they could produce, and how soon. I looked at the photo's, and it was almost comical that anyone could promote something so simple. She said, do you think I'm crazy? I burst out laughing, and said, My dear "What you dare to do, you have the power to do." She then asked what I would charge for my work. I answered quickly because I needed the money. Carol not one cent. I know how hard it is to get started. You work in a shoe factory all day, and then come home, and try to start a business. Sometime down the road, you just do the same for someone else, and you consider me paid in full. Now let's get to work. She said, do you think we could sell my husbands horse shoes, he makes coat racks, and things. I just burst out laughing. The next day this lady read an add in the paper, about a server offering web space for business's. She contacted them, and in the process praised my work in the highest manner. The next day I received a phone call from one of the owners. She explained the new business, and said she had given her son, and partner a description of the perfect person for the a job she had in mind. Her son answered, Mother you're too idealistic, no one like that exists. We'll just have to do with what we have, to do with. She said John, I have a strange feeling that some kind of Providence brought us together. I chuckled, if she only knew! I replied "Yes Mam, I've been waiting for your call. Verdia, and her son, who is in top management in a large airline, have invested a large sum of money in their venture. It consists of something similar to Yellow Pages, yet on the Internet. It works best if you pick cities with a population under 100,000 such as suburbs, or in my case rural communities. They set up a service, and template for your location, and then it costs you about $2295 to buy a territory. You then pay $225 a month for your Mall Space. When you go on the Net, you will in the future go to the Earth Journals site, and there find the US. Pick your state, and then the city your looking for. Each city is set up like a Mall broken into categories. Such as Professionals, like Physicians, Attorney's, etc. There you place all Government information for your area, such as departments, and pertinent information like hours of service, and such. The main thing is traffic so you'll be putting up a lot of community information, such as local church's, YMCA, Fraternal Organizations, etc, free of charge. Now you go out and sell every Doctor, Attorney, Restaurant, Heating, and Cooling, in short anyone with a business. My first little sale netted me $150. A medium sale nets me about $300, and the upper category nets around $450. This is just for Web Presence. Banner Adds, and Coupons, net you just as much, and are easily sold to Grocery Stores, and the like. Then there is building web sites which aren't included in the above figures. If you build a site, whatever you make is yours. If you don't have this ability, you can job it out, and still make a profit. In the process you have total access to your community, or even other communities, when you purchase those territories. This in turn gives you access to many influential people who have never heard of JJ Dewey, the Immortal Series, or Project World Peace. So in short, I have spoken with JJ about this, and he said that he was having similar thoughts about the Keysters, and their need to make a living when they became more deeply involved in the great work. The Oneness Principle is Alive, and Well. So if any of you Keysters are interested, here is a opportunity. I have now been asked to Consult on a National Level, and it may soon become International. Further my local site is going to be used by the Main Office, as a Model for all future sites. Any Keyster working in the Vineyard, and promoting the teachings of JJ Dewey, will get a letter of the Highest Recommendation from me. Laura is already in the process of setting up, and Rick has voiced interest. They're are many great people on this list, and most are here because they have great potential. Contact me at jkline@usmo.com if you are interesting, and I will give you a phone number, and e-mail to the top people. This isn't an easy business, yet I've never seen one that is. It will take work. The small town I live in has a population of 3,000, and the whole county has 25,000. The income potential here is around $50,000 net annually. I'm in the process of purchasing several adjacent territories, with much greater populations. Once you purchase a territory, and build up your business, you are free to sell it, and the numbers are astronomical. This is not a ground floor opportunity, it is basement floor. Just remember that "Vision without Action is just a Dream, and "What You Dare to Do, You Have the Power to Do! "If you believe with all your heart, and mind, It is Done! Some may call this Synchronicity, others may say it is only meaningful coincidence. I have no doubt of the Source, so please don't thank me. Give proper credit, where credit is due. Thank You Father, and I can't emphasize this enough to appease myself. Here's some further information! Earth Journal Categories Out ' N About includes local listings for: Dining: casual dining, fine dining, fast food, carryouts, and delivery. Lodging: hotels, motels, and bed and breakfast inns. Entertainment and Recreation: movie theatres, arcades, golf courses, camp grounds, etc. The Plaza lists retail and specialty shops. Professional pages include local listings for: Health and medical: physicians, chiropractors, dentists, hospitals and clinics. Legal: attorneys, legal counselors, title companies and other legal services. Financial: banks, savings and loan institutions, mortgage companies, brokers and investment companies. General Services includes local listings for: Domestic services: day care, cleaning, lawn and tree landscaping. Building services and repairs: contractors, plumbers, electricians, excavators, painters, concrete companies, etc. Real Estate: sales agents, brokers, appraisers and survey companies. Insurance: insurance agents and companies. Classified Ads list items for sale, trade or free. The classified ads are free to individuals and where they may advertise for items wanted, help wanted, and yard sales. A photo of an item can be linked to the classified ad for a small fee. Community pages include local listings for: Local, state, and federal government. Utilities: telephone services, gas, electric, and cable companies. Education: schools, colleges and technical schools. Places of worship: churches, synagogues, and temples. Non-profit organizations: Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, fraternal organizations, etc. Yellow Pages include business listings and phone numbers. Email and web site addresses can also be included. White Pages include personal names and email address of those who wish to be listed. Search provides a way for you to locate your topic in the Earthjournal web site. When you enter the word you wish to search for, the search function shows a list of links to the pages where that word appears. Home is the page that lists the categories and displays the banner and box ads. In Light, Love, and Power Your Friend, John _ Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8818 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Re: (OT) The Ancient Truth Christopher Wynter wrote: "I am Innocent, I am birthless, deathless, eternal; the baseless base of beginnings the sure foundation unmeasured the causeless Cause of causation the Living Root of illusion." You are Off Topic, desperately. Sorry to tell this again, but I'm sure it has to be said, because many know it and don't find it cool to read your teachings here. Some try to teach you and take you to see the truth you obviously overlook. Others don't. Stop spamming us. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8819 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: (OT) The Ancient Truth Thank you Xavier for saying what I was just about ready to say, you just beat me to the punch. Christopher who are you trying to convince, us, or yourself! Your quoting everything from Deepak Chopra, Kahil Gibran, the Rig Veda, and Upanishads, not to mention work I watched on 60 minutes two years ago. If you think what your saying is new, ask 60 minutes for a tape. Your a day late, and a dollar short, and you are spamming us. Shyama P.S. If you have read the Ancient Texts of India (the work of The GWB) that deeply, and are not just quoting, you should know what Shyama means. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8820 From: "Jina Bostick" Subject: Hello! Hi, my name is Jina, AKA CASunshine, and my computer (after much tinkering) has finally allowed me to become a member. I only heard of the Immortal recently and devoured it in an afternoon, wanting more. I haven't played catch-up on the archives yet, I'm working on it so bear with me. I would like to throw out an experience I had some months back that shook me to the core. I had just laid down to sleep, not even a few minutes later when I saw myself going into a living room with a locker room bench with black boxes underneath it. As this fellow was leaving, he told me to be careful of the black boxes under the bench, as they contained the worst evil in the world. He said it very calmly, then left. As soon as the door closed, the boxes started acting up, vibrating, shaking, trying to work their way out from underneath the bench. Little beams of red light would peak out in an attempt to escape. By the time all was said and done, I was laying on my belly, using both arms and legs to keep these boxes under the bench. Finally, it was as if they exploded, sending this red light (theoretically the evil) into me. I remember saying, "Oh God, HELP ME!" and a mere instant after the red light penetrated me, a brilliant white light came into me from above and literally blew the red light out of me. I felt like I had exploded, and upon "awakening" realized I was all over the bed and laying on top of my six-year-old. I rarely remember my dreams unless they're really bizarre, and I've never had one that was quite this physical. I shook and cried for 2 days and it took me almost 2 weeks before I could "regain my composure." Anybody have any insight on this? It's got me bugged. Jina "CASunshine" Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8821 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Hello! Well Sunshine, allow me to be the first to welcome to the list. That dream has a lot of significance, but the meaning is clear. You're in the right place now, and certainly in the light. I'll be contacting you. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8822 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Re: (OT) Practical Business Opportunity I need to reread this and ask you questions, in order to understand what this business is about. Count me in as a wannabee. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8823 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: Hello! Jina: Welcome aboard. I also had a series of less than nice dreams shortly after getting my hands on The Immortal Book and I bet we aren't the only ones. The important thing is to know you'll get help, if you ask for it, and to not let those dreams keep you from reading JJ's teachings. I sometimes also feel eerie presences, but they go away either with the Om sound or if I ask for God's help, like yourself. For some reason, they dislike that Om sound very much and take off. I say the song before snoozing to sleep. That also helps very much. Once again, welcome aboard and don't let those dreams keep you from reading JJ's teachings. Blessings, Caramel :-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8824 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: (OT) Shyama you wrote: "Shyama, P.S. If you have read the Ancient Texts of India (the work of The GWB) that deeply, and are not just quoting, you should know what Shyama means." I do know the essence .. but in the context of your post I guess it depends whether you are using the word based on The Western corruption the TM definition The Eastern or Western Tantrik teachings The written Bramin (all of which have different flavours and are a corruption of the oral tradition based on the tone and breath ... not the written word which is in essence, like YHWH, not pronouncable except in "an altered state" and can only be achieved by activation of cellular memory if the tradition is alive in the DNA. Christopher Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8825 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: (OT) Shyama I was referring to it's meaning as in the Ancient Sanskrit Language. It still means the same thing in all the languages that have Sanskrit as it's root. It is pronounceable, without question, and I didn't get it through any type of cellular memory, It was given long ago, directly from the Source, as a gift. Shyama Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8826 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: [Rick] Re: What if ..? Christopher Wynter asks, "if I acknowledge all of these genetic mutations that keep me separate from full realization of my potential, my divinity, my one-ness If I acknowledge these learned behavioural patterns do I need to learn anything ..." Yes, Christopher, there is always more to learn. Have you ever heard of the twelve step programs, such as used by AA? Everything you have described, so far, fits neatly into the fourth step. But, there are eight more steps beyond that and when the climber reaches the top step, he starts again on a new first step, an octave higher. The great Apostle told the Corinthians of the wonderful visions he enjoyed during the time of his mystical initiation in Paradise - it was a time when he even doubted his own nature, whether he was body or spirit - and he testifies: "I do not count myself to have apprehended. But forgetting the things that are behind, I stretch myself forth to those that are before.[Phil.3:13]. Paul does not let the graces he has obtained become the limit of his desire, but he continues to go on and on, never ceasing his ascent. He teaches us that participation in the good life brings blessings at every level, but the path goes on infinitely. The eye does not see it completely as it is, but only insofar as it can receive it. There are many levels yet to go, my friend. St. Paul, Jesus, Melchizedek, all admitted to the desire to go still higher. Are you or I greater than these? No way dude. So, let's keep climbing. The rewards grow richer with each new step. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-06/8827 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Hello Hello Sunshine, you're as welcome as the flowers in Spring, Seeing this family growing daily brings pure joy to my heart, I'm sure you'll be comfortable among so many great lights, i'm very happy you found your way home. BTW i love your handle (name). love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8828 From: J J Dewey Subject: Living Works Part IV Before we get to the core of the atonement let us talk a minute about the sacraments of the church such as baptism, laying on of hands, the bread and wine or Eucharist. Both the Bible and the Mormon scriptures make it sound like you must be physically baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven, but is this the case? Exactly what does a physical baptism accomplish and why do you suppose it was instituted by the prophets? The standard answer is that God commanded the ordinance so we should just obey it and not question, but such an unthinking injunction is not good enough for the seeker of the coming age. The person of Light in this day and age wants to know why he is expected to do a thing. If the ordinance has no effect then perhaps we do not want to waste our time. Concerning baptism Joseph Smith received an interesting revelation: D&C 22:1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning. D&C 22:2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works. D&C 22:3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in the days of old. D&C 22:4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen. Read this and ask the question. Why was Joseph given the mission to restore a church very similar to the early Christian church with all of its ordinances including baptism? The answer: "For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in the days of old." Because the people's minds were centered on "dead works" the church and ordinances were reestablished. Interestingly, I have never met a Mormon who was taught this in church. Most of them believe that they have living works and the highest and the best that God has to offer. Now the question is this. What would Joseph have been commanded to establish if the people's minds were centered on "living works?" What is the difference between a dead and living work? The physical act of baptism is a dead work. Taking a person and placing him under the water and bringing him out of it, by itself does nothing, even if you have all the authority of the hosts of heaven. What then is the living work behind baptism? The living work is the meaning behind the symbol and if a person understands this he could obtain all the benefits of baptism without baptism. The scriptures basically tell us that we need to be baptized to be saved. If baptism itself is a dead work then what is it really telling us to do to become saved or delivered? The basic meaning of baptism as many have been taught in church is to have our sins washed away, but if physical baptism is a dead work then what really washes our sins away. We have learned that the real meaning of sin is error or "missing the mark" therefore the washing away of sin is the removal of error. But what is the error or errors that need to be removed? The basic error that baptism helps to remove is this. All except those who have the name of God in their foreheads (Rev 14:1) look for authority from a God without. Now when that God without speaks and we accept a great error is created. It is not long before we imperfectly follow the God without and as soon as we disobey, even in the slightest, guilt is created. Now there are two ways to remove this guilt. The first is to satisfy the demands of an angry "God out there." But the trouble with this method is that it is not long before you break more commandments and guilt returns. The Catholic confession is a good method of alleviating this returned guilt, but this is a temporary measure and you are again dependent on a voice for God out there rather than the Spirit within. What is the second and permanent way to remove the guilt? The second way is to remove yourself from the voice of the outer God, or the "beast" as we taught earlier, and subject yourself to the one authority, the Spirit of God within. This was the difference between the foolish and wise virgins in the parable. The five wise had oil in their lamps, or the Spirit of God in their hearts and this light of the Spirit lead them to the Christ. The five foolish had no oil and had to go buy some from the authorities, but the oil from the authorities without did not light the way and they "missed the mark" or sinned and were not able to find the Christ. Thus we see that the true meaning of baptism is to remove the error of guilt, permanently, which guilt is caused by an error in thinking. True salvation is the removal of guilt. The scripture could have said: "Remove the cause of guilt, center yourself on the Spirit within and you will be saved." Because the true salvation through baptism is the salvation or deliverance from guilt, does this mean that the physical act should not be done? No. It does not. The ordinance of baptism was instituted because it does indeed serve a useful purpose as do all symbols. Many angelic lives that differ from human evolution, as well as higher aspects of ourselves communicate with symbols. Also the Masters largely communicate with symbols. The act of physical baptism sends a communication to higher spiritual lives that you are attempting to enter into a higher spiritual life and this symbolic communication therefore sends a message to refined lives who can help you remove guilt and center yourself on living the life of Christ. Let us pick two other ordinances. After baptism, the early apostles laid hands on the persons and they were then supposed to receive the Holy Ghost. Now the dead work was the laying on of hands. What was the living work or meaning? Christ also instituted the act of sacrament or Eucharist by eating bread and drinking wine to take upon themselves the body and blood of Christ. What is the living meaning behind this? Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8829 From: Rick Audette Subject: welcome home Welcome home Kit and Sunshine and other new members. We hope you will enjoy learning and growing with us. for the benefit of the new members (and some that may have forgotten) We put [OT] in front of any post that does not reply to the current topic, as presented by our teacher JJ Dewey. It is hoped that even Off Topic posts will have some relevance to the discussions, but we are also open minded and flexible, within reason. Introductions are always welcome as are requests for help and prayers from your brothers and sisters. We try not to take ourselves so seriously, occasional humorous posts always are enjoyed. Although a couple of the boys are getting a little zealous today, we do try to be open to others expressing, what they think is the truth to end all. Who among us has not fallen in love or found a piece of truth, only to think we have a monopoly on it. By openly sharing and accepting, we can all gain a larger perspective and improve upon our good selves. Bear with us, we are all human and sometimes make mistakes. Some days we generate allot of posts. You can keep the size down by not quoting whole posts, but just the parts that are relevant to your replies. Also set your mail program to use plain text only. HTML text doesn't come through very clear for some of us. Make new friends. There are Keysters all over the world. Get to know some of them better by writing to them off list and or by ICQ, Buddy lists, IRC chats. Read the archives and visit some of the web sites that members have created. Your friend, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8830 From: "Jina Bostick" Subject: Re: Living Works Forgive me, I took notes, so I may paraphrase... "What is the living work behind baptism?" In theory, to wash away one's sins, come out clean and with a new attitude, a new way of thinking. "If baptism itself is a dead work, then what is it really telling us to do to become saved or delivered?" To change the attitude within, look to the God within. Communion, or the taking of the wine and bread "in remembrance of me" was, I believe, to signify us becoming a part of Jesus, taking not only his "physical" presence, but also his spiritual presence. The "living work or meaning of laying on of hands" would be not just to transfer the Holy Spirit, as you said, but also possibly signifying an acceptance into the "brotherhood" of Jesus? Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8831 From: "Karen Surface" Subject: Re: Living Works J J Dewey writes: "After baptism, the early apostles laid hands on the persons and they were then supposed to receive the Holy Ghost. Now the dead work was the laying on of hands. What was the living work or meaning?" Greetings and Light to all, I have been absent from the list for many months, if my response to this question is not in the context intended, please excuse. I am trying to catch up. I attend a fairly fundamentalist church, but the old tradition of laying on of hands is not applied there. In fact, in this area it can only be found in the most fundamental churches going under various names of Pentecostal or Holiness. What I am discovering is the human to human contact of touch, with a heart open to the Divine Spirit, passes on comfort, and healing. We have become a society of invisible barriers, we physically touch others, but with shuttered hearts. The physical act means nothing without the openess and purity of heart, just as being dunked under water for splashed with a few drops means nothing without the openess of the Spirit to a new life. The contact doe not have to be physical to bring Light to those in need, to a planet in need. It's all about dropping barriers of fear. karen Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8832 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Living Works Darling Karen, It's *so* great to have you back on the list again. I've missed your light. For those of you who don't know Karen, you're in for a real treat. She's lovely! Welcome, too, to Sunshine. From your postings so far, you certainly live up to your nickname. J J Dewey wrote: "After baptism, the early apostles laid hands on the persons and they were then supposed to receive the Holy Ghost. Now the dead work was the laying on of hands. What was the living work or meaning?" I think the real meaning here is the transfer of spiritual energy or power by disciples. In the bible to be touched by the hand of God was to receive the manifestation of His Spirit or divine strength. We know that the hand has charkas - or centres of power - and this power can be transferred through them to heal both physically and emotionally. This is evidenced not only by the healings of Jesus but by genuine healers today. When a disciple lays hands on someone the door is opened for the power or Spirit of God to enter the recipient's life in a process that is unparalleled in its effects. As an aside, I once read that the hand is the synthesis of male and female. It is passive in what it contains and active in what it holds. It also differentiates man from all animals and serves to differentiate the objects which it touches or shapes. The hands can change lives through the power of touch. "Christ also instituted the act of sacrament or Eucharist by eating bread and drinking wine to take upon themselves the body and blood of Christ." "What is the living meaning behind this?" Bread symbolizes nourishment and Christ is the bread of life. The symbols of the bread and wine represent the spiritual food given to all who are willing to partake of it. Also, sharing the bread and wine speaks of the communion between all mankind which enables people everywhere to share in the life of Christ. I was once told that the bread represents the active life and the wine, the spiritual, bread to the 'lesser' mysteries and wine to the 'greater' mysteries. This was borne out by the feeding of the five thousand which was of a qualitative order and the miracle of the wine at the marriage feast at Cana which was of a qualitative order. Whether or not that it true, we know that our lives comprise both the material and the spiritual, another symbol inherent in the Eucharist. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- He who throws mud loses ground. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8833 From: Rick Audette Subject: [OT]It's a boy Congratulations on the birth of your new son, Sterling and Cheri Allen. Your news brought tears of joy. Blessings to your family of light and love and power. You guys really know how to celebrate Christmas :) Love, Rick -- Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8834 From: Rick Audette Subject: Welcome home Karen So glad to have you back, Karen. I have thought of you often while you were gone. Your brother, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8835 From: "Jeannette (Kit)" Subject: [OT] thanks for the warm welcome Thank you for the warm welcome. Also, thank you for the guidelines. That helps! I am looking forward to being part of a great group. --Kit Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8836 From: Rick Audette Subject: Archive Editors needed Hi All, Mark and Marylin have been working on building our own archives of the Keys of Knowledge at http://members.xoom.com/keysarchive/ Because of a new job and moving, Mark has had to stop work on the project. I'll be filling in, until someone else volunteers with web page making skills. Marylin (BambieA@aol.com) has been doing all the editing of posts, copied from the Spiritweb archives. It would be very helpful if we could get a few volunteers to help, until the project is up to date with current postings. Editing entails putting all the posts for each week in a single document for that week, removing the extra codes and correcting spelling (see web page for examples). The documents are then sent to me to be transferred to the web site. Once we are caught up, it would be easy for one person to keep the archive current. It's a useful service and it's fun reading all those great posts again. Anyone interested can contact Marylin mailto:BambieA@aol.com and she will coordinate which weeks you can work on and how she has been doing the work. Thanks, in advance, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8837 From: "Terrance R. Brennan" Subject: Re: Living Works J J Dewey wrote: "After baptism, the early apostles laid hands on the persons and they were then supposed to receive the Holy Ghost. Now the dead work was the laying on of hands. What was the living work or meaning?" It seems to me if humans are looked upon as electrical units or conductors, and the Holy Ghost is corresponded to electric current, then the receiving of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands is like a new electrical connection made between a live circuit and a dead (non- energized) component, resulting in power now flowing through the new component. It makes sense, then, why baptism is done before this for it lowers the resistance to the power flow (guilt and feelings of unworthiness) ensuring a strong uninterrupted connection. "Christ also instituted the act of sacrament or Eucharist by eating bread and drinking wine to take upon themselves the body and blood of Christ. What is the living meaning behind this?" The Gospel of the Nazirenes has this to say about it: Ch. 30:5 "...For the food of the Lord is that which flows from the Highest Heavens, and gives life to the world." Ch. 31:1 "...The Bread that I give is The Truth and the wine which I will give is The Life." Ch. 31:3 "Verily my body is the Flesh of The Law, and this is true food indeed, and my blood is the Life of the Living Vine and this is drink indeed..." Ch. 32:7 "As in the material so in the Spiritual. My doctrine and my life shall be food and drink to you, the Bread and the Wine of Life Eternal." In other words, eating the bread Jesus gave was symbolic of learning and accepting his teachings which prepares the persons' consciousness for the receiving of 'The Life.' This next step is the drinking of wine which is symbolic of 'The Life' flowing into the person from Jesus who received this energy from the holy entity who shared Jesus' body. Rob Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8838 From: J J Dewey Subject: Words of Life Words of Life Congratulations Sterling on the birth of your first child. The experience of the first born is like nothing you will have again even though all your children will be special. It may seem kind of funny now but I was just glad (at the birth of my first) to discover I could father a normal child. Birth is such a miracle it just seemed miraculous that a beautiful child could come from my seed Welcome back Karen. Hope you stay with us this time. And welcome Jina and others who are new. Interesting dream Jina. Whenever anyone makes a step forward in spiritual evolution he has to earn that step by facing a temporary aloneness and spiritual blackout. If you continue to stumble through the darkness no matter what then the light will come back and completely dispel the darkness and the step forward will then become a reality. I would like to repeat Rick's admonition to only post your own writings with essential quotes. If you make a one line comment while quoting two pages this will take up a lot of wasted paper for those who print up all the posts so their eyes do not go buggy on the computer. I write all my major posts on Microsoft Word and then save them as text. Finally I import them into Eudora. This way they are posted with no extra HTML characters. Another thing I do is use the wrap command to adjust the length of my lines so they do not string across the page. For a small post I will write it in Eudora and delete anything I am replying to that does not need repeated. If for some reason you do not know how to eliminate a posting problem Rick or I would be happy to help you solve it. The question: Let us pick two other ordinances. After baptism, the early apostles laid hands on the persons and they were then supposed to receive the Holy Ghost. Now the dead work was the laying on of hands. What was the living work or meaning? Christ also instituted the act of sacrament or Eucharist by eating bread and drinking wine to take upon themselves the body and blood of Christ. What is the living meaning behind this? Concerning the laying on of hands Jina says: "The "living work or meaning of laying on of hands" would be not just to transfer the Holy Spirit, as you said, but also possibly signifying an acceptance into the "brotherhood" of Jesus?" Karen: "The physical act means nothing without the openness and purity of heart." Glenys: "I think the real meaning here is the transfer of spiritual energy or power by disciples. In the bible to be touched by the hand of God was to receive the manifestation of His Spirit or divine strength. We know that the hand has chakras - or centres of power - and this power can be transferred through them to heal both physically and emotionally. This is evidenced not only by the healings of Jesus but by genuine healers today. When a disciple lays hands on someone the door is opened for the power or Spirit of God to enter the recipient's life in a process that is unparalleled in its effects. "As an aside, I once read that the hand is the synthesis of male and female. It is passive in what it contains and active in what it holds. It also differentiates man from all animals and serves to differentiate the objects which it touches or shapes. The hands can change lives through the power of touch." Good comments. To fully understand this it must be looked at in connection with baptism. Baptism is a symbol of the removal of error and making a change in life from the physical to the spiritual. This is such a dramatic change it is referred to as a symbol of a new birth. When one truly follows the living principle behind baptism he will enter the path of Spirit as guilt free as a new born baby. I was at the birth also of all my children and one thing I noticed is that the baby seems lifeless and does not appear alive until he takes his first breath. One of my children spent over a minute in this condition before he breathed and it made me quite nervous. I can imagine how a parent would feel with a stillborn. Thus to complete the life of a new birth, the spirit from God must enter into the body. In the days of the Apostles there was first a symbolic baptism followed by a short period of waiting for the Spirit, just as the parent waits for the spirit to enter the new baby. Then there was a laying on of hands and through a living link to the tree of life, the Spirit flowed stimulating new life from the crown chakra on down. All seven chakras vibrated a little higher according to the consciousness of the seeker and a new life of belonging to the body of Christ was created. A number of Churches use the laying on of hands today, some claiming authority and some not, but even this sacred act will be a dead work if the process is all that is followed with no living connection and awareness of the link with the Spirit flowing through you as well as all the Brotherhood of Light. The Spirit of new life flowing through the hands into the new disciple is usually necessary to create the baptism of fire mentioned in connection with Jesus. In this age the true baptism of fire is very rare and only comes through a high demonstration of faith. The reason it is rare is that the connecting link (as taught in the Molecular Relationship) is not currently secured on the earth. When it is the baptism of fire will become much more common as well as the return of miracles. Now let us examine the meaning behind the bread and wine if communion. After Jesus fed the five thousand with fishes and loaves and the crowds pressed toward him thinking that this miracle worker may be their meal ticket for all their needs, Jesus grew a little sad and impatient with their selfish thoughts so he shouted out: "Except a man eat my flesh and drink my blood he has no part with me." This statement shocked and horrified many. Many concluded that he must have been doing miracles by the power of the devil to make such a statement and got away from him as fast as they could. Some of his own Apostles doubted his sanity as he turned to them and asked: "Will you also leave me?" Then Peter answered and said: "Lord, we have no where else to go. You have the words of eternal life." Jesus explained to them that if one eats his flesh and drinks his blood then as the Father dwells in him through the Spirit so will Christ dwell in them. They thus all become part of one living body. Finally he clarified the true meaning of eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Christ. "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63 In other words, he was saying that the actual eating of real flesh would profit nothing. The true meat and drink that he was feeding them were his words for his words were life because they were in harmony with Spirit. Thus if we go to church and eat bread and liquid in remembrance of Christ, the actual physical eating "profiteth nothing" as Jesus said for this by itself is a dead work. What does profit us is to take in the words of life as we eat and drink, or better still make the words of life themselves your meat and drink. How this is done is one of the keys of eternal life leading to the overcoming of death, but in the meantime those who are ready will receive light from the Oneness Principle on the subject and much benefit can be derived therefrom. Hopefully we can next cover the sacrifice of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. Question: The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there? One answer is given in the Molecular Relationship, but there is another not mentioned there. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8839 From: "Anni West" Subject: Welcome back, Karen Hi Karen, It is so good to see you back on the list :-)) I, too, have missed you and often thought about you. Love Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8840 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Salvation and Forgiveness JJ writes: "The saints were led into captivity because sometime in their past they led others into captivity. They were killed with the sword because sometime in their past they killed with the sword. This is why (says the scripture) the saints must have "patience" and "faith." "Even though these great souls were "saved from their sins," or delivered from error in thinking, they still suffered the effects of their sins or mistakes." Hi JJ and everyone I realize this is not a response to the question at the bottom of this post, however, forgiveness, learning to forgive and letting go has been a really big item in the last three or four years for me. And as I read down to the question, I kept thinking about a previous question, how can we help others to begin to "awaken". At least here in Middle Georgia, forgiveness and sin (sin and forgiveness?) is a big thing in the churches. But the message is exactly the same as it was 50 years ago. "you are going to hell and burn in the everlasting fire". Phooey. I also keep thinking of the man who brings handwritten sheets of legal paper filled with scriptures to me to be typed. I do this with a great joy because he is finding his pathway. True, it is still in the dogmatic way, but, what the heck, we all have to start somewhere, don't we? He stopped by again on Monday this week, with another handful of sheets filled with scriptures again. And then yesterday for another printout of the first batch I had typed up for him a year ago. He is always full of life when he speaks about Jesus, lots of amens. And then I followed what I can only say was a "soul contact". I asked him if he had ever heard of the Song of the 144,000. He said no so I said come into the living room and sit down. He waited patiently while I silently invited our guardian angels to join us in the song and then (big surprise for me) I sang and the words flowed out and the air was filled with electricity. He said nothing as he left, but for a man who always had something to say, I think he felt "the spirit" just as I did. And I give thanks. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8841 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Salvation and Forgiveness Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 8840 Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8842 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: [JJ Dewey] Words of Life .. the first breath of the child Christopher that was excellent, interesting, practical, realistic, and related to the topic at hand. Above all Christopher I sensed a deep sincerity. Thank you for an excellent post. Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8843 From: "Karen Surface" Subject: Re: OT- Welcome back, Karen Thank you all for the warm welcome. I have missed you all and am eager to read and learn. Sometimes it seems necessary to spend a 40 days in the wilderness, for me to figure out where Ineed to be. Again thank you all and warm greetings. karen Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8844 From: Laura Subject: Re: Words of Life "The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there?" Well I don't know if this is it or not, but I'm going to try here.. I know that Jesus and Christ, as has been explained before, are seperate entities. And I also truly believe that the physical agony and torture that the body of Jesus went through was PAINFUL, but not necessarily something he perhaps couldn't overcome, deal with or in other words triumph over. So that leads me to believe that Jesus must have been sweating out another spiritual or emotional matter, and perhaps that is the fact that he was going to lose the presence of the spirit of Christ, and he knew it? If I had lived 20 odd years with this great spirit inside of me as a companion, as a teacher, as a father and a friend and knew that at the moment I would need it most it would be gone, I'd be pretty worried and upset, too. -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8845 From: Laura Subject: Re: Words of Life Editor's Note: Repeat of post No. 8844 Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8846 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Words of Life "Question: The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there? One answer is given in the Molecular Relationship, but there is another not mentioned there." JJ wrote about this in chapter 22: The Human Molecule (http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/JJArchives/JJ486.html) Jesus's sweating of blood has to do with losing the spiritual power when the number of completed units in the human molecule was reduced from 12 to 11 after the betrayal of Judas. JJ also wrote: "Jesus explained to them that if one eats his flesh and drinks his blood then as the Father dwells in him through the Spirit so will Christ dwell in them. They thus all become part of one living body. Finally he clarified the true meaning of eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Christ." So it looks like the symbolism behind Jesus sweating blood is the great flow of spiritual energy that connects Jesus to Father, this true nourishment and life keeper, leaving his body. Here's what JJ wrote in Molecular Relationship: Thus did Jesus organize the Twelve in their correct energies and stimulated the women, including the wives of the apostles with a powerful belief. This not only gave Jesus power to perform miracles, but also his disciples. This power continued with them until the betrayal of Judas. This withdrawal of energy caused the number of completed Units to drop from twelve to eleven. Any chemist will verify that a standard Molecule must maintain its proper number or it will lose its properties. This is what happened to the twelve... they lost their higher properties. From the time of the betrayal of Judas to the addition of the twelfth apostle, Matthias, the apostles were frightened, ordinary men with no power above the ordinary human. Jesus himself was severely affected by the betrayal. At the point in time when Judas completely decided to turn on his Master and was with the Jewish leaders Jesus had brought three of the apostles to Gethsemane. We are told that he "began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My Soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me." Matt 26:37-38 Mark also described him as "sore amazed." Mark 14:33 Some of these words are not translated very accurately. "Sorrowful and heavy" come from LUPEO and ADEMONEO. "Sorrowful" is a fairly accurate rendering of LUPEO. It implies great sorrow, distress or grief. ADEMONEO implies a great distress of the mind or Soul. It could be translated as "anguish" or "depression." It most exactly means that the Soul of Jesus was saturated with a feeling of foreboding. The second "sorrowful" comes from PERILUPOS. This has essentially the same meaning as LUPEO with the addition of the prefix PERI. This implies that the sorrow surrounded and completely permeated Jesus. "Watch" comes from GREGOREUO which means to be awake or fully aware of what is going on. It implies the opposite of death or sleep. "Amazed" comes from EKTHAMBEO which implies a state of mind that is astounded by what is happening and is in a state of wonderment. What do we get from this? When Judas was in the process of betraying his Lord, Jesus was so completely overcome with a feeling of sorrow, heaviness, and distress of mind that he was astounded that such a thing could happen to him, the greatest of us all. The feeling was so intense that he thought that if it became any worse, he would die before any cross would get him. He was "sorrowful even unto death..." The feeling was so bad he pleaded for his apostles to "watch" or be fully aware with him so he could draw strength from them. The pain became so great he asked his Father to remove the cup from him "And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." Luke 22:44 Does this pain and heaviness that nearly killed Jesus have anything to do with the betrayal of Judas? The answer is yes... it had everything to do with it. A Human Molecule of eleven did not conduct the spiritual energy flow, nor did it produce the same results as did the twelve. When Judas withdrew his energy, the whole Molecule was shattered and the tremendous spiritual power that had been flowing through Jesus and the apostles had been interrupted. They were all affected, but Jesus felt the brunt of it since he was the focal point. They were all sustaining a strong spiritual flow and when it was cut off, it felt as if their very life was dissolving. Jesus almost died and the apostles could not stay awake. He only brought three of the eleven to Gethsemane. Perhaps the other eight were still back in the room of the last supper asleep through depletion of energy. Whatever the case, he hoped to create some Molecular flow between himself and Peter, James and John. This would have returned him some of his strength. chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-02/8847 From: "susan carter" Subject: Re: Words of Life First off I just wanted to say Congratulations to Sterling and Cheri (my daughter) and Thank you for another beautiful grand child. He looks like Dad but has the same long black hair Cheri did at birth. Now back to topic: JJ said: The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there? JJ mentioned that Joshua was very upset that he would not be able to fulfill his desire in setting up a physical Kingdom. I believe stemming from that desire he saw all the suffering of humanity for the next 2000 years and FELT IT and his physical self literally experienced a broken heart. I can say that watching my daughter and feeling her labor pains was almost more difficult than birthing her! I had to leave for an hour and get my bearings yesterday morning because I thought my heart would break for her suffering after 50 hours of labor. I am transposing that to Joshua a million times. I think something physically split apart as he watched scene after scene of the coming 2000 years. Susan Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8848 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Sterling & Karen Sterling, how wonderful to have a baby boy come into your lives. Congratulations. What a grand choice that sweet soul made to come into enlightened parents. Karen, obviously, you were a part of the family before i was, so, i embrace you in returning and am very happy to meet you. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8849 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: Re: Living Works This was posted on the forum this morning, in reference to part of JJ's post concerning the Flesh, and Blood, of Christ. John this is driving me mad. This is like the book and there is one word isn't there. Now what was it you said about the ancients folding, and unfolding I can't remember, how to do it? help this is driving me bonkers. Its like something right on the tip of my tongue but i cant get it. Am I close. Well Bonkers you are certainly getting very warm. JJ has this effect on people, that's why his method is so effective. If he just gave you the answers, you wouldn't remember them tomorrow. If you find it on your own, you will retain it the rest of your life. The Ancient Sages of the Upanishads, and many other sacred texts, of the Brotherhood, would take a question, or verse and sit in contemplation, and meditation on it for hours, days, or weeks, until they received illumination, and understood the underlying meaning of the words on many levels. They totally digested it. Jacob Kunrath taught this same process at Heidelberg, remember me telling you that. This is the process. Sit quietly, and contemplate the words, you have pasted into your post. Infold the the words, the thoughts behind the words until you come to a point of impasse. Then, and only then, that one word, or simple phrase, will present itself to you consciousness like a Flash of Bhramic Bliss. You will feel exhilarated because it came from within, not from an outside source, the Mark of the Beast. This is your understanding of the true meaning of the words, which more often conceal, More than reveal. Remember that! Words conceal! Once you have been successful, you then unfold the word(s) and your thoughts until you could write a book explaining the meaning yourself. Repeat this process over, and over, and each time you will find a deeper, and deeper meaning. You may go for many years believing you know the whole truth, and then become the recipient of the Flash, and be given a much, much deeper meaning. The next step is becoming so deeply engrossed in the meaning, that you lose all consciousness of yourself, and your surroundings. One Pointed Attention in the present moment. Only the question exists. Become the Observer, and the Object of observation, at the same time. Then for a short time you will lose everything, Tabula Rasa, blank slate! Practice this process until it is second nature. See that's what happens when you don't pay closer attention in class, you have invoked Karma. LOL I know you want the answer, but the most harmful thing I could do to you, is just give it to you, especially on something as sacred as this. You are close, very close, now all you have to do is infold JJ's words, and practice the process. I just can't resist this Bonkers, what is the principle underlying this process? LOL Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8850 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Living Works Glenys writes: "I think the real meaning here is the transfer of spiritual energy or power by disciples. In the bible to be touched by the hand of God was to receive the manifestation of His Spirit or divine strength. We know that the hand has chakras - or centres of power - and this power can be transferred through them to heal both physically and emotionally. This is evidenced not only by the healings of Jesus but by genuine healers today. When a disciple lays hands on someone the door is opened for the power or Spirit of God to enter the recipient?s life in a process that is unparalleled in its effects." Hi Glenys and all :) Upon reading your words I came to think of the following, not really sure what the association was but thought I?d share. We have spiritual and physical. Head is the innovative spiritual center - Hands are the tools of physical creation. Ideas in the head are intangible and works of the hands are concrete. However, in human being these two worlds shake hands with/in one spirit :) The process of creating originates in the immaterial, resulting in form in the world of matter. There seems to be two process going on simultaneously, one seemingly linear, one cyclic. The cyclic one: an idea manifests, the spiritual side is giving and the physical receiving. Once manifested, the idea or thought is now feeding the intangible or mental, thus physical is now on the giving and the spiritual or immaterial on the receiving end of the process, until the ?charge? is turned around again. Rob mentioned Holy Ghost being like electric current and I was thinking about the same idea: we are all conduits and components in the great circuit of Life. The more linear process brings life out of life before it; like a seed contains the matrix of a full-grown flower, an acorn growns into an oak tree, the son becomes a father one day. When laying hands upon someone's head, we are allowing the giving/doing part (hands) of the chain stimulate and influence the receiving part (head) which is the mental womb of new thoughts and ideas. Besides feeding our own process of becoming we can let the Spirit of Light breathe thru us, lifting the inner flame of our neighbor. It?s quite molecular, if you think about it :) Also, if baptism washes our sins (that word has never really been a part of my vocabulary) away, then we do not \"miss the mark\", and the name of The Father is clearly and cleanly written on our forehead. A spiritual shower that sets you fresh for a new day, everyday, if you *will* :) I AM rambling, off on a tangent, over and out Samu :) Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Tm viesti on lhetetty Saunalahden Serverin Webmailista osoitteesta: www.saunalahti.fi Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8851 From: Karountzos Subject: Re: Words of Life - Peter The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Previous posts explained that Judas broke the molecular link that kept the Holy Spirit flowing through Jesus and the rest of the Apostles. This breakup weakened the group physically and brought much sorrow to Jesus for he had lost one of his own Apostles. The sweating of blood, though, is symbolic. Blood is symbolic for spiritual life and its evolution. When we severely bleed physically, we face a great chance that we will physically die. This demonstrates that if we as humans in this world do not evolve together (molecular link) to the level of Christ Consciousness, we risk the chance of spiritual evolution. In turn, this may bring out much sorrow and blood to mankind physically - the end of humanity. My thoughts, Peter. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8852 From: Lorraine Brutsman Subject: the garden Hi Keysters, Here's an answer to JJ's question, "What was the cause of suffering in the garden?" I of course first thought of what he had written about the molecular structure that Samu posted for us again, (thank you Samu), but then I thought about the birth process that JJ has also been talking about. So what if Jesus was feeling so betrayed by Judas breaking the molecule and then knowing what the world would do as far as sins are concerned, how far off the mark we would get, but what if in the breaking of the connection, Jesus experienced being dead? Not being connected would be like a living death. Being born into a human body is such a low frequency it hurts. Have you ever come back to your body after a spiritual journey only to wish you were still there because the body is so heavy and cumbersome? What if Jesus wasn't used to that? What if suddenly not only was He not connected to His Teacher because Judas broke the connection but He also had the betrayl on His heart but on top of all that He would still be in a human body on the earth. That's gotta hurt. So, the pain that's not described by the molecular structure breaking would be the fact that He was stuck in a human body. Maybe I should end that statement with a question mark because it feels like I'm still just a little off. Ok, that's my stab in the dark. Welcome to all, I love you too. Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8853 From: "Jina Bostick" Subject: [OT] Congratulations Congratulations, Sterling, on the birth of your son. Something about birth reminds me that miracles still do happen. Sunshine Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8854 From: "Jina Bostick" Subject: Re: Archive Editors needed I volunteer. I'm always on this computer anyway. I'm a typesetter /proofreader by trade. It will also give me a chance to catch up on some older postings. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-07/8855 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Archive Editors needed Jina, Xavier and others that want to help edit archives, Please e-mail Marylin at BambieA@aol.com and she will get you started. Thanks, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8856 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: the garden Sweating blood It occurred to me, while thinking on this, that sweat glands are linked to the blood stream and are used to pass both toxins and nutrients out of the body. Themammary glands are evolved sweat glands, used to pass nutrients from mother to child. When the molecule was broken, by the betrayal of Judas, they were starved of the spiritual energies that had been theirs. Perhaps Jesus was somehow then mothering the hurt molecule, sacrificing his life energy through every pore of his body, to nurse the molecule back to health. Just a thought, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8857 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Words of Life .. Help? "Question: "The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there?" Can someone here on this list please tell me where in the scriptures it is said that "he sweated blood" ..? I have an extensive library ... but the only reference I can find to this is that in some versions of Luke (22.44), the words are used .. "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground" (KJV) "his sweat became like great drops of blood falling to the ground" (New KJV) "his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood" (NJV) "his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground (RSV) Now to me, there is a huge difference between "sweating blood" and "sweat falling like blood" Can someone on this list point me to some other reference where I might find the description of Jesus "sweating blood" other than these ... I cannot answer JJ's question in context when the question has no point of reference. If as JJ says, most Christians believe this ... on what basis is this belief held? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8858 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Words of Life .. Help ... 2? "Question: "The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there?" Can someone here on this list please tell me why this description of Jesus "Prayer" appears only in the Gospel of Luke ... whereas two other Gospels have a different description? Mat 26:36 Mark 14:32 If as JJ says, most Christians believe this ... on what basis is this belief held? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8859 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Words of Life "Question: The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there?" AGONY ... from agonia was used among the Greeks as an alternative to agon, "a place of assembly"; then for the contests or games which took place there, and then to denote intense emotion. It was more frequently used eventually in this last respect,to denote severe emotional strain and anguish. The four gospel writers focus special attention on Jesus' final visit to Gethsemane just before His arrest and crucifixion. After the Last Supper, Jesus returned there with His disciples for final instructions and a period of soul-searching prayer. All the disciples were instructed; but only Peter, James, and John went to Gethsemane with Jesus to pray (Mark 14:26-32). Jesus urged them to stand watch while He prayed. Then He pleaded with God to deliver Him from the coming events (Mark14:32-42). clearly acknowledging His obedience to the will of the Father: "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done" (Matt. 26:42). GETHSEMANE ... literally translated from the Gk as "olive press" but when we go into the roots, gath, (in the sense of treading out grapes); a wine-press or vat for holding the grapes in pressing them):- (wine-) press (fat). shemen, sheh'-men; figuratively translates as richness:- anointing, fruitful, oil, ointment, olive .. olive: The best oil was obtained from the green olive fruit. It was used as fuel for lamps, as anointing oil, as an article of commerce and for dressing wounds (Luke 10:34). also used as symbolic of peace So, is it not possible that the hidden meaning for this is that "Jesus went deeply into his own "centre or self" with such intensity that (as is known in Yogic meditation) intense bodily heat was generated causing a "purification by sweat ..." This state is easily experienced in intense self meditation. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8860 From: J J Dewey Subject: Sweating Blood Christopher Writes: "I have an extensive library ... but the only reference I can find to this is that in some versions of Luke (22.44), the words are used .. "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground" (KJV) "his sweat became like great drops of blood falling to the ground" (New KJV) "his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood" (NJV) "his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground (RSV) Now to me, there is a huge difference between "sweating blood" and "sweat falling like blood" JJ Why would the word "blood" be used in connection with "sweat" here unless blood was involved? If we translate this verse correctly we have additional evidence that something like sweating blood occurred. The word "drops" comes from the Greek THROMBOS which literally means "clot," another word associated with blood. The literal translation is: "his sweat became as great clots of blood." In the Gospel of the Nazirenes, taken from the oldest Christian manuscripts on earth we read: "And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling to the earth." Chapter 77 verse10 The Aquarian Gospel also verifies this. It reads: "In agony he prayed; the strain upon the human form was great; his veins were burst asunder, and his brow was bathed in blood." AG 163:50 In the Book of Mormon we read: And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. Mosiah 3:7 I the writings of H P Blavatsky who had direct contact with the Brotherhood we read: "They make it clear that he would rather have lived to continue what he considered his mission, and that he died because he could not help it, and only when betrayed. Before, when threatened with violence, he had made himself invisible by employing the mesmeric power over the bystanders, claimed by every Eastern adept, and escaped. When, finally, he saw that his time had come, he succumbed to the inevitable. But see him in the garden, on the Mount of Olives, writhing in agony until "his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood," praying with fervid supplication that the cup might be removed from him; exhausted by his struggle to such a degree that an angel from heaven had to come and strengthen him." All indications here is that Jesus was under tremendous stress that caused an appearance of sweating blood. If in doubt ask for a revelation on the matter. I'm short on time tonight. More tomorrow Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8861 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Living Works JJ writes: "Christ also instituted the act of sacrament or Eucharist by eating bread and drinking wine to take upon themselves the body and blood of Christ." "What is the living meaning behind this?" Hi JJ and everybody, It's time for a "testimony" here. LOL Baptist influences still around. The baptism of water is indeed a "dead work" if the inner self is not in it. At a point in my searching, I had reached a point where I lost my way, so to speak, and in desperation, returned to going to Sunday school and church. We went regularly every Sunday for approximately 6 weeks. Then on the first Sunday of July that year, communion was offered as it always was on the first Sunday of each month. By that time, I had begun to really listen to the bible, and when Jesus words were read, I realized that I was not in a correct position to be able to take part in the communion. So I let the "wine and bread" pass me by, knowing that I was finally doing the "right thing". During the next week, I had a dream. I was in this place that was twilight filled, and walking toward a building. I could hear a terrible scuffle inside and went up to the door to find out if everyone was alright. I opened the door and stepped inside and beheld a large room, grayish in color, and filled with splattered blood. I thought I should clean it up, so I picked up a grayish rag and began to wipe up the blood. I got to the inside of the door I had entered, and there was blood up the sides and on the top of the door jam. I began to wipe up the blood beginning with my right hand, moving up, across the top and down the other side. Then I looked at the rag and it had turned a radiant white. I knew then, for certain, that I had made the correct decision by not participating in the communion. I had believed the words and did not wish to bring "a loss of Heaven" on myself. I went to church the next Sunday and waited for the call to come forward to accept Jesus into my heart. No call. I was disappointed. I wanted to go forward. Next Sunday, no call. I was beginning to hurt inside. Finally, the Sunday came that the call came and I practically ran to the altar. Tears of joy flowed for two hours afterward. Next came baptism. I had to wait until the following month but that was alright. I was plunged beneath the water but when I was lifted out again, I was an entirely different person and have remained so ever since. Even though I didn't realize it then, I had such a strong "soul contact".....it lasted for several hours before I came "back to earth". So I think that baptism by water can be one of two ways. Just a quick dunking or one with true intent. It all boils down to the principles we have been studying. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8862 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Living Works John Kline writes: "See that's what happens when you don't pay closer attention in class, you have invoked Karma. LOL" Holy macarel, John, I surely hope not. Wondering, Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8863 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Garret Knight I've been thinking recently about this valuable keyster that went away months ago, so this message is to see if he might be reading the list sometimes. And if we might focus on him and do something, that's a pull I am receiving. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8864 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Sweating Blood Further to my previous post, there is a known medical condition .. Diapedis, the symptoms of which are increased vascular permeability which allows plasma pours from the intravascular space to the extracellular area and mix with sweat. This condition can be the result of any intensive (passionate or exertive) activity .. can be experienced during intensive meditation ... or through intensive prayer and passion (in which case it is the source of "stigmata"). It is something that I have personally experienced (and continue to experience) during intense "Yoga" practice Within the early Christian church (particularly Roman Catholic) the textual bible was only available to a select few. Even today, there is a reticence within the RC church for the priesthood to suggest parishioners should read the bible. Consequentially we find that a lot of the dogmatic views of this church is as a result of Vatican encyclical and has no biblical base .. as the true wording of the text of their "word of God" has been hidden. for example, there is no biblical basis for the Assumption of Mary ... a festival observed with passion by many followers of this faith. This genetic memory of "emotional blackmail" is held symbolically firmly within the DNA memory of all who have RC ancestry .. which goes back almost 2000 years. It is only now that some scholars are starting to question the actual words that are in our bible ... with, I might add, great opposition from this institution. The use of the term "sweating blood" as opposed to the transliteration of the Hebrew .. "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood" is, in my humble opinion another example of the use of key words to trigger emotional responses from the unread ... to trigger a hysteria of blind following based on fear rather than allowing the individual an integrity to come to his or her own knowing based on self inquiry. Your quotes tend to support what I am saying ... "Now to me, there is a huge difference between "sweating blood" and "sweat falling like blood" JJ "Why would the word "blood" be used in connection with "sweat" here unless blood was involved? If we translate this verse correctly we have additional evidence that something like sweating blood occurred. The word "drops" comes from the Greek THROMBOS which literally means "clot," another word associated with blood. The literal translation is: "his sweat became as great clots of blood." In the Gospel of the Nazirenes, taken from the oldest Christian manuscripts on earth we read: "And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling to the earth." Chapter 77 verse10 Now you say of the Aquarian Gospel .. a "channeled work through a mystic of Jewish descent and an authority on the Torah and the Kaballah ... this has no back reference to original text or authority .. especially in the accounts of Jesus's travels to India and his interaction with the Brahmins "The Aquarian Gospel also verifies this. It reads: "In agony he prayed; the strain upon the human form was great; his veins were burst asunder, and his brow was bathed in blood." AG 163:50" I question the use of the word "verifies" "In the Book of Mormon we read: And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. Mosiah 3:7" Not having delved into the genealogy of the author of this book .. and not knowing as yet, the genetic perceptual filters through which the words were interpreted, I will not comment on this at the moment "I the writings of H P Blavatsky who had direct contact with the Brotherhood we read: "They make it clear that he would rather have lived to continue what he considered his mission, and that he died because he could not help it, and only when betrayed. Before, when threatened with violence, he had made himself invisible by employing the mesmeric power over the bystanders, claimed by every Eastern adept, and escaped." Hmmm... interesting word ... mesmerism ... how many followers fall into a state of self induced mesmerism? "When, finally, he saw that his time had come, he succumbed to the inevitable. But see him in the garden, on the Mount of Olives, writhing in agony until "his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood," praying with fervid supplication that the cup might be removed from him; exhausted by his struggle to such a degree that an angel from heaven had to come and strengthen him." All indications here is that Jesus was under tremendous stress that caused an appearance of sweating blood. "Which is what I said, and is different from "sweating blood" "If in doubt ask for a revelation on the matter." There is no doubt in my personality mind, JJ, these things I write from my knowing born of personal experience. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-08/8865 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: In the Garden of Gethsemane I think you gave us the answer in your last post, JJ. And I have memory of it being in the Molecular writings, because it interested me. That is, Jesus desperately wanted to continue his mission to bring us back to the Father because it was not complete. My thoughts are He sweated blood (ref. Aquarian Gospel) wanting to redeem us before he left, by taking on all our suffering, pain, sins etc (see my last post on at-one-ment for my other thoughts on thisl). Without Judas, as others have said, the molecule which helped to sustain him, was depleted. Also, as a physical man, taking on such a load of pain would have been a huge assault to the body. That is why he asked that this cup pass him by, if his Father considered it appropriate. He certainly was not afraid of death (although the manner of his death must have been incredibly painful). Even his last (?) words show his thought was only for us - "Father forgive them they know not what they do." Jennifer By the way, to those of you who may have downloaded the photos of my daughter and I from Samu's Keyster Album - would you mind deleting them, (for reasons of privacy). Samu has kindly placed a new one of just me in the album to replace the others. Thanks. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8866 From: Marylin Subject: Maybe O.T. Hi all What on earth is happening today? The sun is shining brightly between clouds down here, but the light is dim, like it was on Mars according to the pictures that came through. It's eerie looking. Anyone know anything about this? Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8867 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Garret Knight Xavier wrote: "I?ve been thinking recently about this valuable keyster that went away months ago, so this message is to see if he might be reading the list sometimes. And if we might focus on him and do something, that's a pull I am receiving." Xavier, oneness principle seems to be alive and well, I found myself thinking of Garrett just a few days ago and was wondering how he is... Garrett, you out there??? Xavier, what says, maybe we write Garrett an email telling we haven't forgot him... Maybe he?d enjoy a greeting from us :) Love from the top of San Francisco Peaks, Samu Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Tm viesti on lhetetty Saunalahden Serverin Webmailista osoitteesta: www.saunalahti.fi Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8868 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Re: Words of Life .. Help? These passages in the Bible about Christ sweating "as it were great drops of blood" are given additional light in the LDS scripture. 15 Therefore I command you to repent--repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore--how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit--and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink-- 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. (Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-19) It seems to me that what he is saying in other words here is that without the atonement of Jesus Christ, a person must bear the full weight of his own Karma. Sterling Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8869 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Sweating Blood Hi everyone, The meaning of the word blood in the context of Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane is symbolic rather than literal. Jesus' forthcoming death on the cross for the salvation of the world is likewise symbolic rather than literal. In the agony during praying at Gethsemane Jesus was losing all of his personal life as the body of his soul was being shattered to take the 4th initiation. The love energy that was operative in this happening is taking place wherever a similar agony of death occurs in an individual. In duplicating Jesus' agony of death lies the salvation of the world. The death of Jesus' causal body is the holographic archetype of the death of our causal bodies. This is the true meaning of Jesus dying for our sins, namely, our belief in separation and actions thereof in the life of our personalities. The physical plane reality is real in its own way. But from the point of view of the whole economy of 'salvation' it is symbolic rather than really real in the way realities on higher planes are real. No mere literal meaning of sayings by anyone could convey the true meaning of what it purports to represent. Blood is symbolic of life and loss of blood or death is symbolic of transformation of life. Life of personality is to be transformed into life of soul. The last stronghold of personality is the body of soul which has to be shattered before personality can fully be transformed into, or fused with, soul. Hence the 4th initiation as exemplified by Jesus' symbolic loss of blood in the garden and integrally completed on the cross for complying with the will of the Father. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8870 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: OT Re:Garret Ward Samu Karlsson writes: "Xavier wrote: "I?ve been thinking recently about this valuable keyster that went away months ago, so this message is to see if he might be reading the list sometimes. And if we might focus on him and do something, that?s a pull I am receiving." "Xavier, oneness principle seems to be alive and well, I found myself thinking of Garrett just a few days ago and was wondering how he is... Garrett, you out there??? Xavier, what says, maybe we write Garrett an email telling we havent?t forgot him... Maybe he?d enjoy a greeting from us :)" Hi Samu, nice idea;-) And I'm happy to see you participating. I did a quick search in the archives, and Garrett's second name is Ward, I had forgotten it and replaced it by Knight, probably because this is a famous author's name. Here is his email address, as quoted in the archives: glward@infomagic.com I just sent an email to him. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8871 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Garret Knight Count on my focus joining with your's, Xavier. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8872 From: "* Zia" Subject: Bread and Wine Greetings of Peace to All, Jesus the Christ, presented as an enigma to all. Understanding the 'hidden or unseen meaning' of the symbols in all of life sets us free to evolve, clearing away the veils and opening the Great Seals contained within us all. Jesus carried within his body a great wisdom, a great knowing, the result of understanding life experiences. The 'bread' is the symbol of knowledge that is his wisdom gained from all of his life experiences. So when we eat of the body of Christ, we partake as at a feast, of the 'bread of knowledge'. This knowledge applied in life, provides us with the same understandings, the same wisdom that Jesus gained. The 'bread of knowledge' is food to the mind. By using the brain for its true purpose, the function of divine reasoning, we literally digest the 'bread of knowledge' to gain eternal wisdom. The 'wine' is a beautiful symbol of the resulting 'wisdom' gaining the mind of God, the presence of 'spirit'. Our minds, like our bodies, seem full of water, and we live on water, more than any other substance. Knowledge applied, gains us wisdom, the Spirit presence in our life. Thus turning the water into wine, the 'spirit' filling the mind and the body!!! And the 'spirit understanding or knowingness' is intoxicating, uplifting and joyous, for it has silenced the chatter of the fearful monkey mind, filling us with wisdom. The mind filled with the 'spirit' is the mind filled with the 'wine of understanding wisdom' and 'spirit presence/God presence'. Wine is such a wonderful symbol since the alcohol or spirit presence is unseen and often not tasteable. So the senses do not perceive the spirit. Yet its affect is profound wisdom, spirit presence, eternal life. So the blood of Christ, was not filled with water, as when his side was pierced, in his resurrection (symbolically) his blood was now filled with wine, the wine of the spirit!! So in the partaking of the body and blood of Christ, (and Christ being the spirit body of course!!) we partake of the 'knowledge' of the spirit the bread represents and we partake of the 'mind' of the spirit presence the wine represents, turning our body and mind of water into wine- wisdom presence of the spirit!! This is also the symbol of the Marriage at Cana... those present received the knowledge of Christ through the feast of the bread, and their minds were changed from water into wine of the spirit, presence of the spirit... thus creating the marriage of man and spirit, the Christ in Mass. This Christ in Mass, is our celebration this Christmas, the taking of the bread of life, and through life gaining the presence of the Mind of God, the Spirit presence, Christ presence in our life, our blood changed to wine... our blood coursing with the presence of spirit in our life! In love and laughter, and the birth of Christ in mind and body to all, this magnificent Christ- Mass celebration!!! ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8873 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Words of Life Greetings of Peace to All, Christopher, thank you for your great wisdom, and your determination to continue to share, you are a very great inspiration to me. You walk your talk so profoundly. Thank you. Yes, through use of the power breath, one does indeed sweat pools and rivulets, and this I have personally experienced, and was my reflection in reading JJ's post as well. In fact, in Japan I believe, their is a particular group that used the melting of snow as an initiation, simply with their own generated body heat, using what is called if I remember correctly the 'tahumo' breath, creating high energy, high consciousness and great heat expended, enough to melt surrounding snow and keep the practitioner quite warm. Jesus would have used this technique to rebuild the energy in preparation for the 'ordeal' of the cross, and from the high consciousness level, the cross would not have been an 'ordeal', yet the common man sees only through physical identification. Thank you again Christopher, not only for sharing, but for being the brilliant light that you are. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8874 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Sweating Blood Greetings of Peace to All, Interesting to consider here that Jesus was in great emotional turmoil even though he knew the plan for his crucifixion, and its outcome, including the betrayal of Judas prior to incoming that life, which was a necessary factor in the cross occurring at all!! Yet knowing the plan before coming in, and executing it once here, is a mighty test indeed, because of the 'emotional stress' to the body organism. One very important lesson in meditative exercises that creates profound energy, is that any emotion operating at the time, is a dead weight to rising in consciousness. The body reacts even minutely to any perceived fears, as one goes through the steps of the process to arrive in much higher levels of consciousness, and often the emotions can halt the rise in consciousness altogether. At a simple level this might be emotional expression of tears, creating a release, that sets consciousness free. What I am given is this is the body's reaction rapidly demonstrated on the body in striving to gain the high levels of consciousness that would thus attract the spiritual help necessary to overcome his predicament. The sheer force of Will to attain the higher levels, created the emotional reaction mirroring onto Jesus' physical body. His distress mirrored onto his physical form with application of high levels of energy as time was of the essence... I know many practicing these techniques, and their faces, have many broken blood vessels, for as that kundalini rises with consistent application, this can occur all over the body. At different times the tracks of the kundalini could be seen in various parts of my own body. This occurs under long intense focus etc. The intensity of the test, would have been profound, yet Christ already knew the outcome, and maintained and was not alone. What is not mentioned anywhere is the power of the women at the foot of the cross. These women also assisted profoundly in consciousness with Jesus while he was on the cross. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8875 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Before you ask I will hear Last night as my wife and I lay with our newborn child and my wife awoke three times to feed the babe before it even started to cry, noticing that it was making a sucking sound and turning its head toward her; and then as I noticed he was wet after the second feeding and thus changed it without a peep of protest from him; I reflected on the scripture in Isaiah 65:24 "And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear." Right now, the normal pattern is "ask and ye shall receive." "Cry and ye shall be fed." "Cry and ye shall be changed." But in the coming millennium which we are ushering in at present, this will no longer be the order of the day. My question to you all is what sort of spiritual ramifications there are in this difference? In terms of my child, I don't think it is spoiling him to sometimes detect his needs before he gets around to vocalizing his complaint. Now he can contemplate some great breakthrough rather than announce a dirty diaper. When I brought this up with Susan, she said that she had been noticing this phenomenon in her life. That even before she had a chance to form a question in her mind, the answer would come to her -- or something to that effect. Any comments? Sterling p.s. By the way, on the naming front, we have pretty well decided on the name Christian Miykaiel, though the spelling of the middle name is still not fully decided. I had a fun experience this morning arriving at that spelling. I will probably end up doing a write-up on it. The idea of the spelling is to take the wonderful and most common name "Michael" and encourage a Hebrew pronunciation, which will likewise promote reflection on the meaning of the name. Better spelling recommendations would be welcomed. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8876 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Re: Words of Life I am pretty much concerned by the turn that the list is taking these last two days, but instead of complaining or accusing, I'll use this feeling and observation to reinforce my motivation to answer the questions and go on with the teaching;-) So... J J Dewey writes: "Question: The scriptures say that Jesus suffered such agony in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion that he sweated blood. Most Christians believe this suffering was his bearing our sins. Others think it was a dread of the crucifixion. Do you think this is true? If not what do you suppose is the true cause of his agony as he prayed there? One answer is given in the Molecular Relationship, but there is another not mentioned there." I am a bit drying, but I'll have my try. (better try than dry, lol) You already mentioned the breaking of the molecule. Something else that you mentioned, was his sorrow to see that his dreams of the kingdom would not come true in this lifetime and for the coming age. Well, I really don't have a clue;-) The bible says he asked for the cup to be removed, which means he was expecting great suffering, or maybe not? Could it be that the said cup was hurting because of reason number 2, the loss of the hope of the kingdom for this time? (not a very useful post, but I'm glad to have aimed it right;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8877 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: OT Re: Before you ask I will hear Sterling D. Allan writes: "p.s. By the way, on the naming front, we have pretty well decided on the name Christian Miykaiel, though the spelling of the middle name is still not fully decided. I had a fun experience this morning arriving at that spelling. I will probably end up doing a write-up on it. The idea of the spelling is to take the wonderful and most common name "Michael" and encourage a Hebrew pronunciation, which will likewise promote reflection on the meaning of the name. Better spelling recommendations would be welcomed." Can you use "-" in a name? Or split it in two or three? Call him "Mi-ka-el". BTW, what was the hebrew pronunciation? What is the true pronounciation? (the true name of the Archangel) Mee Kar Aile ? (might be a good place name too;-) The sound is the most important thing, so if you need to create a weird spelling in order for people not to impose the common pronunciation, seems like some workable idea, yet not wholly satisfactory. Some western occultists pronounce "Mikhal", were "kh" is a guttural sound, like forcing air to get past your throat-to-mouth hole. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8878 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Re: OT Garret Knight Sharon and Richard write: "Count on my focus joining with your's, Xavier. love to all, Sharon" Garrett already answered me. He sounds very well, and produced me some links of Laurence Gardner's stuff:-) My general feeling is that he is progressing onward nicely;-) I'm glad;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8879 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: OT Re:Garret Ward Xavier writes: "Hi Samu, nice idea;-) And I'm happy to see you participating. I did a quick search in the archives, and Garrett's second name is Ward, I had forgotten it and replaced it by Knight, probably because this is a famous author's name. Here is his email address, as quoted in the archives: glward@infomagic.com I just sent an email to him." Xavier, thank you :) Grrrrreat!!! Let us know if you hear from him! Samu chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8880 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Before you ask I will hear Greetings of Peace to All, And such profound blessings of love and joy to your beautiful newborn Sterling... and by the way I just love your name... makes my heart sing!! Now for your beautiful child... it feels like you are striving to arrive at Mikhael... pronounced meek-hai-el run together of course. This is the Russian spelling I believe, however it is the spelling and pronunciation that I know of the Archangel Mikhael. The 'k' adds a powerful vibration of the '11' which is the power of revelation. This child has much to reveal and confirm for both you and Susan. Your wisdom (and Susan's) is profoundly beautiful. It took me back to my time with my tiny son... he taught me so much. Yes they will communicate through thought 'telepathy' and ask you to do the same, teaching you that profoundly. As my little baby grew (and I a single working mum) I just could not face a crying baby and realized that when he woke he woke me even from his crib in the next room, asking for something to do. I gave him those huge 'duplo' blocks at a very early age (2 - 3 months) and would visualize putting them together just as he woke me. Next thing I would hear 'click click click' as he sought to put them together. I could then do my meditation, get up.... attend to him, for he was happily busy. Once in the night I was up and running before I woke really, and reached my climbing son as he was going over the side of his crib. The mother and father will truly know through their love and focused attention on their child!! Finally going to work one morning I had placed him in his car seat, closed the house and garage, and in getting in the car my son suddenly said 'bear book' very demandingly (about 2 years). There was no deterring him, so I went back to the house, looking for the bear book. A mother rushing to get to work and her child into day care, was not too clever about the bear book!! I came out with three books I thought would do... oh no... bear book... well I stood at the hood (bonnet) of the car looking at my son in the back seat and said 'what is the bear book?' in great desperation with the car motor running (and the clock!). He immediately sent me a picture of the cover of the book... he or spirit or the oneness of ourselves... I raced in and got it, giving it to him he said quite happily 'thanks mum'... and I realized in all my time with my son, even to this day, we communicate so powerfully non-verbally. He reads my thoughts with exceptional clarity. These are the children of our future, and they are reminding us, helping us to be so free and loving with them. Your words of wisdom are very well chosen and very wise... thank you for the reminder. 'The answer is already in the question' comes to mind, that in fact we see the answer in vision, and through divine reasoning totally understand without having to ask any question... we are fed so beautifully. In terms of your question on spiritual ramifications, I see that we will end 'negative attention seeking' devices, because love will provide, and as the child grows, so does the trust in this love, without question!! That quiet time together is like a meditation, and perhaps this taken forward in time as the child grows... that there is simply a quiet time of sharing, the bonds of love, telepathy, empathy, and so much else grow, building perhaps a strong 'family' molecule. Your child is a splendid teacher, as are all children given that opportunity to be heard... even on that quiet level!!! Love to you, Sterling, Susan and welcome Christian.... ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8881 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Before you ask I will hear Hi Sterling, Congratulations on the love you and your wife are experiencing with the coming of your baby. It is true unless there is receptivity on one end there would not be giving on the other lest it would be given in vain. However, if readiness to receive was known before hand anticipation of giving would be in order. Actually readiness to give is always present waiting for readiness to receive in order to fulfill the giving. If time could be compressed into one single point there would be no need to wait for the receiving end to get ready. The receiving end would always be ready in exactly the same way as the giving end is always ready. That is why we ask questions: We are ready to recognize the answers. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-10/8882 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: [Stirling] Before you ask I will hear Hello Stirling .. From what I read, you are starting to experience what I wrote about, as I spoke of the children in my group here in Tasmania ... Essentially, there is, in my experience, a "telepathic" bond between the parent and the child .. as there was between us and our own parents when we were first born .... This is why, when "hearing the children" we do not "anticipate" their needs but are answering the unspoken communication from their "silence" ... which is a reflection of the silence which still exists in us .. underneath the layers of conditioning. I honour you for your observations and your being able to hear and interpret what you are hearing ... the path I have trod thus far has been one where I have been subject to those opinions from people who have "read the books". Yet what I have found is that the children have not read the books .. and that, as I allow them to remain in communion with this silence and truth the unspoken communication, a whole new vista is opened up to me. a vista which we as a group here in Tasmania, are starting to find within ourselves .. the space of the silence where the child is aware of all things ... even as we were when we were children .. before our parents, through society pressure and their own inherent fear, shut down their own knowing towards themselves .. and towards us ... it was not their fault. I, with the children in my group, asked whether it was necessary to continue the pattern of past shut down .. and chose to face the fears, the doubts, and the church .. and found, as you have, within the scriptures (both East and West) an essence which is underneath the dogmatic proclamations of the churches. Allow that your child may cry .. may holler and scream .. and this may trigger the "sh*t" out of you and your wife .. and there will be nothing that you can do to placate ... but this is the child's natural way of using the power of sound to clear the body .. if you listen carefully, the cry will turn into a tone .. and if you can enter the silence yourself and hold him gently to you, the tone will enter your body and clear the memories for you to ... this is part of his gift to you ... and you might allow that from this crying, this toning, all sorts of feelings and emotions may arise from within your body .. this is natural if you can allow that they are your childhood emotions being brought to consciousness to be released ... another gift from the Child of Innocence who is the mirror of the you that religion and society have tried to make you forget. In terms of a name ... what were the very first words that came out of the silence to you .. can you allow that he will tell you what his name is .. and how to spell it ... If in doubt ...ask him the question and go to sleep with the question .. it will be given ... what he wants to be called ... It may well be what you have written .. but I ask you to remember the burden that is associated with the names you have chosen ... is his life to be one of burden .. or one of joyful revelation I have watched the struggle of one burdened with his choice .. David .. I have watch the joy of one who chose the sanskrit name anunda (the bliss of the union with the divine) The choice is yours .. the way we have done things over the last thousand years ... or the old, old way .. as written in the scriptures as you observed .. where the child is born innocent... and sees no separation between himself and the world around him ... and to whom everything is 'Da' (or God) You are not anticipating his needs ... you are not spoiling him ... you are hearing the word unspoken in his name With respect Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-10/8883 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: (OT) Moving beyond (for Stirling) What you move beyond is firstly the subjective judgment of the experience *** then your remove the expectations from the possibilities of experience **8 Then you can experience beyond ... without judgment or expectation *** Experience is subjective for most because it is an act of comparison through a filter set of learned beliefs and responses .... *** Can you allow that experience can move beyond that which you have a guide post for comparison? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-09/8884 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Re: Before you ask I will hear Zia, Thanks for your kind and insightful remarks regarding my baby's name and regarding the answer being in the question. One point of important clarification. Susan is not my wife. She is my wife's mother and lives conveniently across the street from us. I like the spelling Mikhail better than Michael, but I can still see people pronouncing it "Mick Hail" like Mikhail Gorbachev or McHale's Navy. Miykaiel is an awkward spelling indeed, but it states very emphatically that the pronunciation is important as well as each of the Hebrew letters that it mirrors and their meanings. Any other recommendations on a better spelling? Sterling Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-10/8885 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Before you ask I will hear Greetings of Peace to All, I must agree with you Sterling, the SOUND is all important, and its resultant vibration. This is truly the times of being 'different', with different spellings, meanings, etc. I salute you in your efforts and to follow your heart and soul. Your child will advise you... and I sincerely support what Christopher has also written in regard to children, naming, and their gifts to us. Forgive me Sterling, and 'Susan', and your wife, for my confusion on who