1999 - WEEK 48 Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8693 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Hi, my name is Sterling A pleasure to meet you, Sterling. Welcome to the Family. To you and all the latest members, let me help you get to know us all better. You can get to Spiritweb's archives for the list at http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/keys-l.html Samu has a number of "Keyster" pages, including; http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/JJArchives.html [JJ's posts to the list] http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/KeystersPhotoAlbum.html [pictures of us] Lisa has the Keyster page at http://www.naturalfolks.com/keys/ Mark and Marylin are building an archive at http://members.xoom.com/keysarchive/ it has more Keyster links on it. Anni has a projects page at http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Terrace/2242 I'm sure I'm leaving some out, but the others can pipe in and help you get acquainted with the friends and discussions found in your new family. Welcome home to all, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8694 From: Norman Fleshman Subject: Discovery of truth JJ asks,..........Now let me repeat today's question: Even though your foundation beliefs are great stepping stones there does come a time when you will discover that some of them are either not true or founded upon partial truth. What makes this discovery possible? Possible answer: Perhaps maintaining the awareness that, "The law makes nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better Hope does." ? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8695 From J J Dewey Subject: Dominating Good Welcome to the list Sterling and all you wish to bring with you. I'm sure you will be a valuable addition to the group. Let us tabulate the principles of discovery covered so far. (1) Take the things you know (for reasonable surety) to be true and use them as a foundation or stepping stones for testing additional truths. (2) Be willing to let these foundation beliefs be either altered or dropped as some of them are replaced by higher vision. (3) The teaching should be in harmony with common sense (4) It should increase the power of Decision and free will. (5) It should bring you to a new level of awareness and usefulness. The Question: Even though your foundation beliefs are great stepping stones there does come a time when you will discover that some of them are either not true or founded upon partial truth. What makes this discovery possible? What are some common erroneous foundation beliefs that we see about us? For illusionary foundation beliefs Susan wrote: 1. "We" have a corner on the truth. "We" have it and you don't. 2. You only have one shot at life, you better do it right. 3. Evil is more powerful than good. 4. I'm not responsible.....for what happens to me, for what kind of leaders are leading, for the ills of this world etc etc 5. It's so screwed up there is no hope. Good point here. Some would say that the truth is that good and evil are equal, but such is not so. Good is the dominate of the two and this is the reason that our progression moves forward as an eternal spiral. If good and evil were exactly equal then we would be going in circles for eternity. Djwahl Khul speaks of the law of dominating good as follows: "Disease is the Product of, and subject to, three influences. First, a man's past, wherein he pays the price of [Page 30] ancient error. Second, his inheritance, wherein he shares with all mankind those tainted streams of energy which are of group origin. Thirdly, he shares with all the natural forms that which the Lord of Life imposes on His body. These three influences are called "The Ancient Law of Evil Sharing." This must give place some day to that new Law of Ancient Dominating Good which lies behind all that God made. This law must be brought into activity by the spiritual will of man." A law "Dominating Good" lies behind all that God has made. That thought registers well with the soul. I liked Margaret's comment about her alteration of a foundation belief: "When my mind was satisfied, then the new information actually thrilled every fiber of my being! I sat back from studying Strong's concordance and felt a glow growing inside. Now I had to reorganize my belief system(s) but it felt wonderful to do so: freeing; expanding; powerful new vistas." I could really relate to this as it has happened several times to me in my life. It can be very troubling when a foundation belief is disturbed, but then when the barriers are let down there is great joy when higher truth is accepted. Rick mentions a foundation belief of a black and white view of the Bible. This indeed turns into a mindset that can blind people to higher truth. Actually, this is more the fault of a false teacher than it is the Bible itself. How about problem foundation beliefs on the other side of the fence in the New Age community? Can you name a couple? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8696 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Dominating Good JJ writes: "For illusionary foundation beliefs Susan wrote: "3. Evil is more powerful than good." "Good point here. Some would say that the truth is that good and evil are equal, but such is not so. Good is the dominate of the two and this is the reason that our progression moves forward as an eternal spiral. If good and evil were exactly equal then we would be going in circles for eternity." "Djwahl Khul speaks of the law of dominating good as follows:" "Disease is the Product of, and subject to, three influences. First, a man's past, wherein he pays the price of [Page 30] ancient error. Second, his inheritance, wherein he shares with all mankind those tainted streams of energy which are of group origin. Thirdly, he shares with all the natural forms that which the Lord of Life imposes on His body. These three influences are called "The Ancient Law of Evil Sharing." This must give place some day to that new Law of Ancient Dominating Good which lies behind all that God made. This law must be brought into activity by the spiritual will of man." "A law "Dominating Good" lies behind all that God has made. That thought registers well with the soul." The dominating good DK speaks about is the good which lies behind all that God made and this law of dominating good is brought into activity by the spiritual will of man. This is not the good as opposed to evil where good is believed by most to be less powerful than evil. This is a different kind of good behind both good and evil because it is directly brought about by the spiritual will of man. This is then the good the soul is aware of and ever works through and with the personality toward. The ancient law of evil sharing works within the context of good and evil and it runs through all cosmos. It will some day give in to the new law of ancient dominating good where evil will be no more. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8697 From: Laura Subject: Re: Principles of Discovery "I think a good indicator is whether or not the teaching conflicts with truths that have been previously established. If they do conflict, it is a good hint that they are based on deception and/or illusion." I agree that if the truths or teachings conflict greatly, it's a good sign that one of them is entirely off-base, but you can't just assume that the old 'truth' or what was seen as 'truth' is the one that is valid. Take the issue of slavery a century or so back in America. It was an accepted Truth that light skinned people were smarter, better and more entitled to equality than darker skinned people. It was a taught and accepted truth among the greater amount of the population, due to the power of the Beast. It was an accepted truth until this past century that women were submissive, docile creatures that were always to stand by their husbands, fathers, brothers, etc. in all matters, no matter how they felt, as Men as a rule were the greater of the two sexes. Of course these are not spiritual examples, but I think you understand my point. It's the responsibility of the student to open his or her mind and hear (not necessarily embrace) new ideas, dogmas and/or teachings and then decide for themselves what is true, no matter how 'True' the old teachings seem to be. -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8698 From: "ren and susan carter" Subject: Re: Dominating Good "How about problem foundation beliefs on the other side of the fence in the New Age community? Can you name a couple?" 1. Traditional religions and scriptures have absolutely nothing to offer me. 2. There is no evil. 3. Learning to do (astral traveling, telekinetics, past life regression) is the focus rather than being (kind, loving helpful) 4.There are no rules worth following Susan Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8699 From: Marylin Subject: Re: On the subject of "peace" Hi all I received this in part on one of the lists I am currently on. Since we are working toward world peace, I thought some might be interested. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin 2~ Jan. 1, 2000, ONE DAY IN PEACE. 24 hours when no guns are fired anywhere on earth, including on television. The United Nations has invited EVERY government, organization and individual to help create humanity's first day of peace ever. More than 1000 organizations in 140 nations are spreading the word. 50 governments have pledged their support for One Day In Peace. http://www.oneday.net Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8700 From: Lorraine Brutsman Subject: basic truths Hello Keysters, Here is my attempt to explain the growing process. If my core beliefs are based on half truths or no truth I won't know that until I have an increase of knowledge. For instance, my sister has not been seeking or learning toward the spiritual stuff like I have. She does not believe what I do. Last night we had a long talk about disciples. She believes that people follow other people, I believe people follow the message not the messenger. Her basic truth is half true. People do follow other people but not for the reason she thinks. Now it is necessary that she and everyone else have a basic understanding of the world around them. Somehow we all have to explain things. So here I come along and tell her I think it's the message that people follow and now she has more information and now must make a choice. Does she like the way the old thought system felt or does the new one make more sense? Is she even looking for truth? Does she want to see it? It all boils down to knowledge. If I can increase my knowledge then I have more room for truth and better grasp of truth when it is presented to me. I recognize truth much more easily now because it has been increased in me. As I grow, step by step, precept upon precept, my capacity also increases. So what makes the discovery of all the half truths in my life at all possible? The knowledge I learn along the way. My pet peeve common erroneous belief is "it doesn't matter anyway". I hate apathy. Or the thought that someone else will do it so no one does. The half truth that we are nothing and have no power or self will to direct and change and become. "I was meant to be here. It doesn't matter that I am unhappy and miserable. I can't do anything about it anyway." Most of that is self esteem but it transfers into the way you look at the world too. If you can't do anything in your personal life, where you should have the most power, then how can you do anything to change the world? It is an error to think you can't do anything about it yet it is the way the majority of people think. So one word answer; knowledge. Knowledge increases our ability to recognize the half truths of our lives. Acceptance must also be in there somewhere. And decision to make a change once we realize the error. Thanks for listening, Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8701 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: Re: Dominating Good J J Dewey writes: "How about problem foundation beliefs on the other side of the fence in the New Age community? Can you name a couple?" 1 Self development is all there is. Service will come later, as a by-product. (compare with : Evolution really begins only when the student devotes himself to the service of Humankind, disinteresting himself from his personal self. Self centeredness is the biggest obstacle of the aspirant) ;-)) sounds differently doesn't it? 1 bis : Ascension is all initiation is about. Let's begin with ascension right now! Meditate, etc... 2 Going with the flow, everything is done through belief, I'm sure one could find a dozen of these closely related to each other. Yes, love is all there is. Ah!! lol 3 Thinking is creating, is doing. (compare with "energy follows thought and.." damn it I forgot the second part once again;-) Someone had given the complete quote few weeks ago.) 4 Joy is the true mean of achieving things. (Ah we need so much of this. But yet, a servant of Humankind may have to pass through tremendous suffering, all the while serving and working to the best of his/her ability. There is joy somewhere for sure, but it has nothing to do with laziness.) 5 If it feels true, then it is true, even if those that are best informed say it is not. (excellent example, the book of Marlo Morgan, "mutant message down under". She claims it to be non fiction. IT tells about a supposedly original australian aborigene tribe. The true aborigene tribes took concern, and protested against it, because people are believing the book more than the facts. Apart from the fact that the author makes money on lies, she destroys the cultural knowledge that non aborigenes have of aborigenes, by replacing it (she sold millions of copies) by a fiction. Well, I talked about it with a friend of mine that sells books, including hers. He said "and yet, I prefer to stick with the book because itt feels right and true to me" This is delusion big time. To prefer fiction over facts. This makes easy people to delude, doesn't it? "stick with your fiction, and be a useful slave" (this is not for my friend, I am on most points admirative of him, and have nothing to teach him, except on this point. BTW, I gave him The Immortal;-) I could go on a long time on this, but you have luck!! I have to go now!! C ya all (the circus goes on with another dude) ;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8702 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Truth &Welcome Dear family, i believe i have mentioned before our oldest son is very entrenched in bible teachings and for year's has believed that Richard & i are headed straight for hell. We gave his mother-in-law "The Immortal" book 1 and she LOVED it, which caused our son some additional discomfort, because we were taking her on our downward path, then we gave him "The Immortal" book 1, though he figured it was another of 'those' devil books but read it and LOVED it, we recently gave him & his MIL book 2 and, of course, they loved it and he no longer feels threatened, i realize i'm beginning to babble on here. All this is to say THANK YOU, JJ, our son is very comforted to realize we may not be going to hell after all. So, his truth was changed by his soul expanding and accepting as truth that which his soul confirmed and left his intelligence(?) out of it. I've found we can over analyse any truth we fear learning, being afraid of climbing out of our narrow box keeps us chained to 3D. Thanks for letting me ramble. Love to all, sharon BTW, forgive me Sterling, as usual, i got side-tracked, let me join the chorus in welcoming you to the family, i'm sure you feel the love that pours from this remarkable group and i am most happy to get to know you. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8703 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: On the subject of "peace" One day of world peace has my vote. Maybe we can keep the ball rolling by sending copies of the Project Peace and Goodwill and it's declaration to the folks at that web site. They have already built a link with many peoples and organizations and will want to keep going after their current 1/1/2000 project. Their e-mail address is at the bottom of the page that Marylin sent; http://www.oneday.net JJ could send his 4 part post on Peace and Goodwill and Keysters, from all over the earth can write them and say, "Have you heard about Mr. Dewey's peace project? I think it's a good idea." Just a thought, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com I'm only in it for the thrill Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8704 From: J J Dewey Subject: Two Goods or One? Paul writes: "The dominating good DK speaks about is the good which lies behind all that God made and this law of dominating good is brought into activity by the spiritual will of man. This is not the good as opposed to evil where good is believed by most to be less powerful than evil. This is a different kind of good behind both good and evil because it is directly brought about by the spiritual will of man. This is then the good the soul is aware of and ever works through and with the personality toward." "The ancient law of evil sharing works within the context of good and evil and it runs through all cosmos. It will some day give in to the new law of ancient dominating good where evil will be no more." JJ You have to look at what DK does say here, not what he does not say. Nowhere in the 30 books of AAB is it stated that there is a different kind of good which is divorced from good and evil and I do not recall two types of good being mentioned in this or any other work of the brotherhood. Degrees of good perhaps, or good from different sources such as the personality or the soul. Then too we have different definitions of good and evil. I think this interpretation is peculiar to your own belief system. In the quote I mentioned he used the phrase "dominating good" as opposed to the "law of evil sharing," which you admit is in the realm of good and evil. The dominating good is brought into activity by the spiritual will of the higher Triad, but it is still in opposition to the law of evil sharing as DK indicates. No where does he say that evil will be no more. Instead he tells us that which is evil will be lifted to h higher note. In other words when good dominates and moves us forward that which is then evil is not as bad as it was in the past. For instance a 100 years ago it was mildly evil to kill someone of an unpopular race. Now evil has been raised to a higher level so killing someone of a different race (especially because of race) is considered so evil to be unthinkable for the average person. Now, needlessly killing an animal is seen to be as evil as killing of such a human was in the past, yet in ages past no one was prosecuted for such a thing. DK is very consistent in his definition of good and evil. Evil is that which pulls us backward in evolution and good is that which pulls us forward. It may seem at times that we are moving backwards, but because good always dominates this means that spiritual evolution always goes forward. We may go 9 steps backward while taking 10 forward thus creating one dominating step toward the good. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8705 From: Marylin Subject: O.T. Y2K strikes early Hi all In our local paper, The Daily Sun, yesterday, an article on the front page puts to rest any fear of banks closing their dooor, government not being able to pay it's bills, etc. etc. etc. From the Associated Press, in Philadelphia, the city Jury Commissioner sent out second notices to people selected for jury duty with dates to report. As many as 500 people got those notices telling them to "show up for duty in 1900." The heading of the article is: BE HERE 100 YEARS AGO. So much for all the disinformation we've been handed. LOL Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-29/8706 From: Paul Yu Subject: Truth of personality and truth of soul Hi everyone, A fact or a historical truth is a truth confined to a specific time and space. Truths of this nature are only valid at specific times and in specific places and would cease to be truths if the time and space wherein these happened were altered. These are truths of personality conceived by the power of the rational mind with the observation of the senses. Scientific truths or truths having to do with physical laws are also confined to the physical dimensions within the framework of time and space. These are not valid in dimensions other than the physical where the time and space as we know them are no longer valid. These are likewise truths of personality obtained through the power of the rational mind with the observation of the senses. Truths intuited by the soul are not subject to time and space and therefore are valid beyond our time and space. These truths are used by aspirants and disciples to test, discern and finally dissipate all beliefs or all truths of personality as illusory. In truths of the soul alone lies the immortal spiritual feeling of joy, freedom and serenity. The awakening personality is ever readying itself to participate in the soul's intuiting of trans- time/space truths. It uses all opportunities provided by fellow human beings as teachers to find truths. But each person can only find truths by relying on their own personal intuitive feeling accompanied by logical reasoning for verification of all truths, truths of personality as well as truths of soul. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-48/8707 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Dominating Good "How about problem foundation beliefs on the other side of the fence in the New Age community? Can you name a couple?" "Everything is perfect and can be just accepted the way it is." To those who believe in this, I have a question. What was free will given for then, so that we can make our definition of perfect less than perfect? Hehee :) Nope, free will enables us to take things to a higher level, to become and to progress... If we so decide. If we decide that we have reached perfection, then we are saying that we already are what we have decided to become, we didn't learn anything during the process that brought us this stagnant state because it brought us no new realizations that would ignite new greater decisions, *and* now we are just standing still in this perfect state. Doesn't sound like very exciting Life to me! Recognizing who we are and realizing where we are are the first and essential steps on the path of the ever-growing greatness and potential; they are not the perfection in themselves. Tell God s/he's perfect and you've painted a dull blasphemous self-image. Up goes the spiral, Samu chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8708 From: J J Dewey Subject: Points of Truth Sharon... I am happy that the Immortal had a good influence on your son. I do not hear many stories of orthodox religious people reading it. They will often refuse to consider it. The first will be last and the last first. Thanks for the report. The Question: How about problem foundation beliefs on the other side of the fence in the New Age community? Can you name a couple? Susan again gives some good answers. I'm glad you're pitching in here Susan. "A lot of the regulars seem to be relaxing since Thanksgiving." 1. Traditional religions and scriptures have absolutely nothing to offer me. 2. There is no evil. 3. Learning to do (astral traveling, telekinetics, past life regression) is the focus rather than being (kind, loving helpful) 4.There are no rules worth following There are all excellent observations of New Age traps. 1. Traditional religions and scriptures have absolutely nothing to offer me. This is an interesting one because the left and right take two extremes on this. The religious right takes everything too seriously, and literally, and many on the left throw the whole Bible out the window thinking it is like kindergarten and needs to be left behind. The truth is that great wisdom is distilled in this as well as other world scriptures and are very useful when passed by the soul. In my opinion the highest writings are those of Isaiah, the words of Jesus and the writings of the Apostle John. I think we can find here words of spiritual power that are equal or surpass that of anything available in book form. (2) There is no evil. I've had a lot of discussion with various people in the list with this one. Either them or me have some foundation resifting to do in the future. It is interesting that the Great Invocation, which is accepted by many of those who teach there is no evil, has this in one of its stanzas: "Let the Plan of Love and Light work out And may it seal the door where evil dwells." These very words we are told are spoken by the Christ, the greatest of us all, every single day in present time. They are not far removed from the Lord's prayer given 2000 years ago in which He asked to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." My question to those who do not believe that we have to be concerned with evil is this. If Christ, the greatest of us all, is yet involved in the world of dualities to the extent that He puts daily attention on sealing the door of evil, then is it not apparent that our foundation beliefs need reexamined if we see ourselves beyond this need? If your teacher is a mile ahead of you on the path and a mile beyond the teacher is refreshing water that you thirst for, then imagining to yourself that you are drinking the water does not produce reality. Instead it may deceive you into not following your teacher who does knows the way and wandering off into strange dark paths and missing the destination completely. 3. Learning to do (astral traveling, telekinetics, past life regression) is the focus rather than being (kind, loving helpful) Phenomenon does often distract from the needed path of service. 4.There are no rules worth following This was another good one Susan. For the right the rules are everything and for the left there are no rules. Those in the middle realize that some rules are necessary for order but not suffocation. Here is my rule for rules: Minimum rules - maximum free will. A little like we try and do on this list. Xavier also gives some other shaky foundation beliefs to consider: 1. Self development is all there is. Service will come later, as a by-product. Many on both sides of the fence put too much emphasis on self. The truth is that when we serve with purity of heart the self is taken care of making self-first an unnecessary step. 2 Going with the flow. This is a good one that we have covered in the past. 3 Thinking is creating, is doing. Thinking is a step but only part of the process. 4. If you're in the light you will have only joy and peace with no suffering or struggle. 5 If it feels true, then it is true. Good points Xavier. The ways to deceive ourselves in this world are indeed without number. Samu adds another good one: "Everything is perfect and can be just accepted the way it is." I have heard many people on the left and right make a statement something like this as they are struggling to achieve: "If God wants it (or if its meant to be) then it will happen. If it does not happen then it is not supposed to be." Time and time again I have seen this attitude cause the person to cease making that little extra bit of effort necessary for success. The truth is that you have power to create what you decide to create and as a reflection of God your creations are God's will. If we want some thing all we must do is make a decision to get it and pursue the dream until it is real. If we leave everything up to an outside God we become like a sandcastle exposed to the wind and waves of the ocean. Disintegration can only occur. Now let us get back on our original quest of the principles of discovery of truth. Lorraine make a good comment on this: "So one word answer; knowledge. Knowledge increases our ability to recognize the half truths of our lives. Acceptance must also be in there somewhere. And decision to make a change once we realize the error. (Also apathy a deterrent)" Let me phrase it this way: Seek out true sources of knowledge, study and incorporate them into your life. Knowledge dispels error and illusion. Thus we now have six criteria: (1) Take the things you know (for reasonable surety) to be true and use them as a foundation or stepping stones for testing additional truths. (2) Be willing to let these foundation beliefs be either altered or dropped as some of them are replaced by higher vision. (3) The teaching should be in harmony with common sense (4) It should increase the power of Decision and free will. (5) It should bring you to a new level of awareness and usefulness. (6) Seek out true sources of knowledge, study and incorporate them into your life. Knowledge dispels error and illusion. Jesus gave us another principle to aid in the discovery of truth. He aid: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8709 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Points of Truth JJ writes: "Jesus gave us another principle to aid in the discovery of truth. He said:" "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 "What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth?" Hi JJ and all It sounds to me like this is the principle of discernment. We can use discernment to determine whether or not something is true or not. I don't remember the locations in the bible, but there is a verse that has been my guide for years: "Test the spirits". Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8710 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Re: 73 of JJ Dewey archive forwarding a germane comment from a friend Subject: Re: [SDA_friends] 73 of JJ Dewey archive These are excellent observations. In fact, all human perceptions are inherently relative, because human "thinking" is essentially a process of comparing new inputs with previously perceived inputs or thoughts. The concept of "perfection" implies the presumption of a measurable criterion of some kind that has well-defined end points. Subsequent judgments regarding "perfection" are made by comparing new inputs to such a measurable criterion. All such presumptions are essentially generalizations created by men, not God. So if all human perceptions are inherently relative, then God's wisdom begins by asking the question, "Relative to what?" God's "approved solution" to that question is, "Relative to His commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves", which as you can see requires no presumptions whatsoever regarding "perfection." Chris Currie Sterling D. Allan's friends - http://www.greaterthings.com/Newsletter/SDA_friends.htm Susan forwarded this on to me, and now I'm forwarding it on to you. The more I'm exposed to this J J Dewey, the more impressed I am becoming with the depth of understanding he exhibits. Subject: 73 of JJ Dewey archive Relative Perfection Gabrielle originally made this comment: "For me it would be blasphemy to consider Christ anything less than the goodest most perfect creator God of the universe and to love Him and thank Him as such." I tried to ignore this line of thought and then Alice brought it up again. This time I perceived that there may be several who may want me to answer so I reluctantly proceeded. Why was I reluctant? Because I knew that if there were even several out there who were set into the orthodox view of Jesus or God that we would be sidetracked for some time. Nevertheless, we want to be open to all things and we have began this plunge so perhaps we should continue for a while or it may become a "stumbling block" to some. If we are going to have a productive argument or discussion the first thing to do us make sure we know what we are arguing about. Since we are basically talking about the perfection of God let us first define "perfection" as it is usually used in relation to religious discussions. Perfection: "A state of being, achievement or attainment which cannot be improved upon and from which no further progress or improvement is possible." When this idea is applied to worshipped beings such as Jesus or Jehovah it is done with the idea that they can never make a mistake. Every word, action, movement and creation they make is flawless. Basically these poor gods have nowhere do go because they have it all. They have no goals because to move toward a goal of any kind would take them away from the perfection they are now experiencing. They have nothing to learn because they are perfect in their learning. There is actually nothing even left for them to create because their creation is perfect since they are perfect. Such a delusion about any living entity in the universe is a great example of the deception that the beast has fostered upon mankind. And the interesting thing about this idea is that it is found nowhere in the Bible, but he Beast creates the illusion for the masses that it is taught in the scriptures so control becomes that much easier. Since the Beast uses even good things like the Bible as a tool of control it must make us think his most cherished teachings are in there whether they are or not. So to sum it up the two sides of the argument is this: ME: Ultimate Perfection is an illusion and actually undesirable. If we were to live in a state where there could not exist a goal to progress even higher then there would be no joy in living. The closest we get to perfection is what the Masters call "Relative Perfection." With relative perfection one can reach a state where the entity has as skill down pat so he becomes a reliable performer or he has achieved a particular goal to his satisfaction, but soon he finds another skill to master and another goal to achieve. OTHERS: God and Jesus are both the ultimate perfection and there is nothing they can do to become more perfect. Period. To quote Gabrielle "it would be blasphemy to consider Christ (Jesus the entity) anything less than the goodest most perfect creator God of the universe..." It would be helpful if we have covered the second key here but we will plow with the horses we have. First let me say that to put Jesus, Buddha and other religious icons in their right place and perspective is not blasphemous as truth is the highest form of religion and is never blasphemous. On the contrary to overstate their importance as the beast did with Jesus in the Nicene Creed IS blasphemous and needs correction in the religious world. To put Jesus in his right place in the universe is a good thing, just as it would have been a good thing to put the emperor of Rome in his right place. Only by putting all things in their right place can the truth be seen. If one puts Jesus on even higher pedestal than He belongs then all perception of Him and his words will be seen through a fog and high illusion will be the result. Let's use some logic here. To believe that Jesus the entity created the trillions of inhabited worlds out there and then picked this little planet to visit with His presence would make this little planet pretty much the most important place in the universe. This type of thinking is very similar to ancient man who thought that the earth was the center of the universe and even the Sun moved around it. Do you really think that of all the trillions of worlds - this is the most important or at least one out of a trillion in importance? You would have to think this way if Jesus, the entity, created the whole universe and yet chose this little planet to visit. Most metaphysical teachers see it much differently than this old time religion explanation. Many wise teachers correctly see that there is an entity who most correctly or most perfectly (not ultimate perfection by any measure) demonstrates the Christ energy and consciousness that exists in all of us. For this little planet the entity who has best demonstrated this consciousness was Jesus. Jesus however, is a current native to this planet Earth and has little to do with any other star systems in this galaxy let alone the billions of other galaxies of billions of stars in this little universe. All these other systems with inhabited worlds have their own teachers who represent the Son of God and teach as Sons of God. They are totally separate entities from Jesus as we understand 'separate" yet they are Jesus Christs to their worlds which merely means they are "anointed to save" their brothers and sisters. Remember the name Jesus Christ means "anointed to save" and there are billions of such beings so anointed. Get ready for a shocker - something you will never learn in regular Bible class. I will now give you two Bible stories that definitely illustrate that the God of the Bible is not quote the epitome of perfection that the Beast has led you to believe. STORY NUMBER ONE: JACOB AT PENIEL The word "Israel" comes from the Hebrew YISRAEL. The first part of the word is derived from the prime root SARAH which literally means "to prevail" or to "have power". It is sometimes used to indicate a princely or royal power. The second half of the word is EL. This word is translated as "God" numerous times throughout the Old Testament. When it is not used in this connection it means "mighty" or "strong" and implies superhuman goodness or strength. If we put these combinations together we have several possible meanings among which are: "To prevail as God", "to have royal power as God", or "to prevail through great strength and goodness". Some say that it should mean "prince of God", but this is a watered down euphemism designed to conform to orthodoxy. In examining the first rendition ("to prevail as God") one may wonder why such a title would have been bestowed upon a man for surely man was not intended to prevail or have power as God. Is not this a bold title to assume? It may seem bold, but it is also quite fitting, for did not Jacob prevail and have power over an angel of God, or possibly more than an angel? After the entity left it is written: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel (Which means the "face or appearance of God): for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen 32:30 Most religionists call this personage an angel, but the Bible does not. The scriptures call him two things. He is called "a man" (Gen 32:24) and "God (Gen 32:30). The amazing thing is that Jacob being a man prevailed over another person who was called a "God". Therefore, he was given a name which meant "to prevail as God" for only a God could overpower another God. CONCLUSION: Obviously God was not a perfect wrestler because Jacob beat the hell out of him and made him cry "uncle." God was so impressed that he was bested by Jacob that he named him Israel - "to prevail as God." STORY NUMBER TWO - MOSES OUTSMARTS GOD Moses was indeed a true Israelite for he prevailed as a god as Jacob did and got the best of another ELOHIYM. God was dismayed at the Tribes of Israel because they disobeyed Him and built the golden calf and had decided to destroy them all. The problem God faced in destroying them is that it would interfere with his promise to Abraham and to fulfill this promise he had to keep some of the promised seed for breeding so he told Moses: "Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." Ex 32:10 Moses did not want all of his labors with the people to have been in vain so he reasoned with God and told him how embarrassing it would be before the eyes of the Egyptians. They would think that there is something wrong with a god that would save a people just to destroy them in the wilderness. Still God did not change his mind so Moses then made one of the boldest moves in the history of the planet and placed God in a corner and forced his hand. Moses reminded God that he would not be able to completely fulfill his promise to Abraham if he destroyed the whole house of Israel and left Moses alone. WHY? Because if God destroyed all Israel but Moses then God could only bring the promised seed through Moses. Thus if God executed His plan of destruction He would then need the full cooperation of Moses to fulfill His promise to Abraham. Now Moses still had his free will and threatened to not cooperate with God. This would make God a covenant breaker if he executed his plan on the Tribes. Thus through the powerful reasoning of Moses God was forced to change his mind. It is written: "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." Exodus 32:14 (Read the whole chapter.) CONCLUSION: God here obviously did not have a "perfect knowledge" or he would have known the mind of Moses. He didn't seem to have a clue that Moses would get the best of him in an argument or how Moses would respond to him. Moses actually caused God to "repent," Does a perfect being repent? In other words, God realized his direction was wrong and went another direction. This is not the only place where God "repents." Other examples are: God said: "It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king...And the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel." I Sam. 15:ll&35. "and He repented that He made man" (Gen, 6;6) and He repented of thinking to destroy Nineveh (Jonah 3:10). Even though the Bible clearly teaches that God has his own flaws on his plane the religions still teach that some perfect being is at the helm heading everything up in their particular religion. Why is this? This is part of the master plan of the Beast... Why? Think. What is the best way to control people? In other words, who are people most willing and eager to obey? Would it be a God like the one who "repented" to Moses? No. Would it be a perfect God who never makes a mistake and his every word is infallible??? Yes, Definitely Yes. Then once you get the people believing in such a God what is the next step? ANSWER: Establish God's representative here on the earth who speaks his mind and will. Then once you have such a man (or woman) what do you have? You then have a voice for yourself that is as potent as having the perfect God right down here on earth in your pocket! Once you have the perfect God's words here on earth available for your use (even if they are wonderful words) you can then take those words and alter them (the way they have done with the Bible) and then use the perfect God's words through his perfect representative to create an absolute control over the people. The beast takes away the power of the common people to think because you do not question the words of a "perfect" God. When you no longer question you can then be herded about like a beast who only awaits the next push from his master to determine his direction. The trained beast does not think or question the command of his master - he merely obeys. It's time the people of Light are finally taught the same principle that Moses understood. To be like Moses you must even question the perfection of God. Who knows? You may get him to change his mind as Moses did. Does this mean we will be frustrated in our efforts to improve ourselves if we question the perfection of God??? NO. The answer is just the opposite. When I used to think Jesus was a perfect sterile being in the standard religious sense I felt discouraged about the possibility of being like him. I found Abraham Lincoln much more inspiring because he had flaws, but he rose above them. He was not perfect, but he turned out pretty good. This was someone I could sink my teeth into. Here was a man that set an example I could shoot for, but Jesus??? Well I had already made a lot of mistakes so being like the flawless Son of God like Jesus was out of the question. Then when I found out the truth about Relative Perfection Jesus shot right up there at the top of my list where he belonged. I realized that I could be like him after all - I realized that He was a practical role model. If you had an opportunity to play basketball and everyone else on the team was as talented as Michael Jordan, how long would you play even if the coach let you? Not for long. There is just too much of gap between you and the other players. Instead of having joy from playing you would become depressed. The standard view of Jesus and other religious icons takes the joy out of religion for the same reason. You are just never good enough. I thank God in my heart every day I have escaped this delusion of the Beast. I just finished studying the life of John Kennedy. He had a lot of flaws, but I found many things about him that inspired me and made me aspire to higher things. Winston Churchill has been a hero of mine yet he was overweight and smoked cigars. Does that make the fact that he almost single handedly stood up to Hitler any less inspiring to me? No. When we see any other life form as more or less than a spiritually equal brother we are just inviting the Beast to take control of our lives and we will be oblivious to what is happening as we are being manipulated. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8711 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: Points of Truth J J Dewey wrote: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth?" I was looking around on the web to see how other people interpreted this scripture. I was amazed to find out that most of the time, the second half of that scripture was left out. "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." Most people understand that Jesus was sent here as a messenger. That makes the first part of this scripture pretty easy to understand. The second half, on the other hand, is not so easy to understand. I'm pretty positive I don't completely understand it. He's basically saying in that one sentence, the very thing we have been studying these past couple of days. We're creating a list of some of the things we can do to discern the difference between truth and illusion. He's saying (in not so many words) that if any man will confirm these teachings any way he can, he will know if I speak of truth, or illusion. JJ says essentially the same thing all the time. I think the Master was speaking of the Principle of Discernment. Discernment is using any tool at your disposal to determine fact from fiction, and being willing to accept the truth when you find it. Beyond that, it's also being willing to share that truth with those 'inquiring minds' that want to know. Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8712 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: RE: 73 of JJ Dewey archive another friends comments From: Clara Howard I see life and the history of man as an over all plan of education and advancement. Jesus was a man who had 'learned'. Just as each of us can learn. I was asked once by a very learned friend who Jesus helped the most in his ministry. After I gave him several answers, all to which he answered no... for I said Lazarus, the blind man, the bleeding woman, teaching the disciples... Martin C. Larson said no, "He helped himself." "He grew in perfection." "Jesus told us time and again that he could do nothing of himself, but the Father worked and talked through him." Everything he did was according to laws of nature that science is proving more everyday and according to what Jesus taught and demonstrated, things we all could come to be able to 'demonstrate' in our own lives. If one of us were to go back only as far as the birth of this nation or to the middle ages of Europe with the knowledge of natural things and life that we know now... we would be considered 'gods and goddesses'. Looking at it from the perspective of a 'chess board' , we can see a 'plan' laid out. It is the balance of learning and demonstration of a philosophy of moral and ethical values according to the plan and laws of nature. God chose Abraham as a prime example of the growing race of men and made a promise. God then tested and chose Moses to lead a group of people to be educated in the advancement of man -- spiritually and physically. The Jewish or Hebrew people were given the rules (books and the law) to teach others to add to the advancement of man. Then, when the laws and basics had been taken as far as allowed with the material at hand (the level of society, the mentality and abilities of those who lived then). There were others along the way, Noah, Isaac, Isaiah, Solomon, David, (just to name a few) to demonstrate facets of God's law. He also prepared the way for the next teacher. (Just as we do with our schools, starting a child in 1st grade and moving them up as they are ready for the next steps) God then sent us Jesus to take us to the next steps. God also led the 'magi' to deliver 'the invitation' to the new 'teacher'-- for Jesus to attend the 'school of the masters' (the missing years of Jesus' life?). It was a major move on the chessboard of life for the advancement of 'the human species.' The men and women of his time were taught what they could accept and learn. But, to pick one of them up and try to put them in today's world would have probably 'blown their minds'. He had to teach from the basis of who and where they were at -- at that time and place. What the society of that time could handle. Buddha and Jesus taught basically the same message. With Buddha, from the perspective of the society he was working with, the focus was the sacredness of all life. For Jesus with the Jewish/ Hebrews, and the gentiles of his time, the focus was the brotherhood of man. There is no real 'disharmony' there, just a different perspective and each was working from a different kind of society. Both taught ethical truths, though they used different methods. Both taught a basic philosophy of life. Jesus then 'demonstrated' what is possible for us all and chose his group of teachers (the disciples). Buddha did the same. They used different methods according to the society they were living in and the people they were dealing with -- but as religious leadership was the base from which they could demonstrate the most influence at the time and places they lived in, they worked from a religious standpoint. Just as in the time of the Bible, there have been many since then who have demonstrated great abilities. Many in our own recent history such as George Washington, Betsy Ross, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Eleanor Roosevelt, John Kennedy, Sister Teresa and so many others have demonstrated guidance and leadership that has been just as influential as David, Solomon, Isaiah, and other leaders of Biblical times. Of the individual signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, many demonstrated just as much in leadership and moral guidance as did the Disciples of Jesus. Not to the degree or 'perfection' that Christ did, but our Constitution and Documents of Liberty were just as inspired and can well be considered the next step in human rights and dignity from the 10 commandments that were handed down to Moses -- and just as sacred. There is a plan. We may not be able to see it clearly from our places on the 'chess board of life,' but those who can see it from the overview and have learned the game understand the moves, sacrifices, strategies, advancements and growth that are intended with each developing move. I look forward to the possibilities of the next 'millennium' with excitement and anticipation. The challenges we meet with determination, love, self discipline, and expectation can be wonderful stepping stones in our future development. We have a long way to go, but we have come a long way, too. Like the washing of the beach by the ocean waves, the sands (lives) are tumbled, stones (individuals) are polished, the world is reshaped and redefined as we learn and grow. It is a wonderful life and time to be living. The possibilities are endless and so wonderful to contemplate. In Love and Light, Always, Clara A Roadmap of Life Numerology by Clara http://www.clarasconsulting.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8713 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Points of Truth J J Dewey wrote: "Jesus gave us another principle to aid in the discovery of truth. He aid: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth?" I agree that discernment is an important factor but it seems to be a result of applying an action/attitude - doing His will - rather than being the actual cause of knowing the 'doctrine'. It seems that obedience is the key here - following the highest that we know. If we do that the knowledge we receive will testify to the 'doctrine' or Truth and we will be given more. On the other hand, if we receive knowledge and ignore it (ie don't follow the highest that we know), what we have will be taken away from us. So an unwavering and wholehearted commitment to, and love of the Truth will always lead us towards the Light. First thoughts anyway....:-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Do not cling to anything, to any idea; because clinging is the bondage, even to the idea of enlightenment. - Osho Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8714 From: J J Dewey Subject: Elaboration The Question: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth? Perhaps some additional questions will get us going here. Where do we look to find the will of God? How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false. We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8715 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Re: Points of Truth JJ, I am sickened at heart at your report that your book is poorly received by orthodox religious people, for I know that if they would but open their hearts, they would rejoice in what it is you bring forth. I would add to the list of foundational premise flaws the one that is found so prevalent in western religion. It is the infallibility tenet. For the Christians, it is usually voiced in terms of "A Bible, A Bible, we have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible." In other words, they limit their source of truth to the words currently found in accepted cannon. Your book, representing a scriptural like tenor, therefore, is taboo inasmuch as it represents an extra canonical source. This is not only unacceptable, but forbidden and evil. It could only be of the devil, according to this hindering mentality. For the Mormon crowd where I grew up, where they believe we have "modern" prophets akin to the prophets of old, this flawed infallibility premise is voice in these words: "The prophet will never lead us astray, it is not in the program. If he were to say something in error, then we would be blessed by doing it anyway. But don't worry, such a thing will never happen. God would remove him out of his place first before allowing him to mislead the people." This is not an exaggeration. This is the excepted "dogma" in Mormonism today. (A great deal of my effort has been expended in helping to dispel the fallacy of this paradigm.) Hence a book like yours which comes from outside of Mormonism couldn't possibly be of God, for it did not come through the "approved" channels. If John the Revelator were going to show up and reveal truth to the world, then he would go to Salt Lake City and talk to the Mormon prophet. Fortunately, there is what we call a "remnant" both from Christianity and from Mormonism (as well as from other religious bodies) who have broken out of that damning mentality that removes responsibility for "decision" from the person and places it in the hands of the leader. This remnant, through a painful birthing process, has come to realize that they are responsible for their own salvation and relationship with God. They are not afraid to read something such as what you have written. As part of that birthing process, their egos have been humbled to the dust, for any respectability they had in their former society was shot when they went against the mainstream flow. It is a difficult path to walk. I have found my exposure to your writings to be one of the best things that has ever happened in my life, and I fully intend to do my part to share what I have discovered with my remnant associates here in the world of outcasts from Mormonism. I think you all will be delighted with what we can bring to this discussion by way of the gems of truth we have gleaned from Mormonism and Christianity. The Mormon cannon which in addition to the Bible includes the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price; as well as other LDS writings are chuck full of validations for what you have written in your books and what you share in these discussions. Speaking of humility, I have been profoundly impressed by your down-to-earth nature. You do not let all this attention you get go to your head. That is the way we must be if we are to continue as servants of God and of our fellowmen. Otherwise we set ourselves up as a god to our "followers" and hinder their spiritual path. Sterling Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8716 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Get "Immortal" on Oprah JJ informs me that he's not yet had time to contact Oprah about his book. I would like to suggest that all of us on this "Keys of Knowledge" e-mail discussion group send a letter or e-mail to Oprah recommending that she feature JJ and "The Immortal" on her show; and that she feature the book in her recommended reading list. e-mail to Oprah may be sent through http://www.oprah.com/email-oprah.html Ground mail may be sent to: Harpo Productions P. O. Box 909715 Chicago, IL 60607 Sterling Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8717 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Get Immortal Thanks Sterling, for the timely reminder to do more to bring attention to JJ's book & to JJ. We have just sent a message to Oprah, and i agree if we all write her it could do some good, i know Annie suggested the same thing some months back, but maybe now is the right time. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8718 From: Margaret Leach Subject: Re: Elaboration J J Dewey wrote: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 "What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth? Perhaps some additional questions will get us going here. Where do we look to find the will of God?" Everywhere! In everything! In books, in sacred writings, in people, in our vocations and avocations. Always open. Always searching. Listening within for recognition to know when we find it. [PS: JJ, it always comes back to soul contact, doesn't it??] JJ: "How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false." When we are following the will of God [aka our own path] we are 'in concert' or 'in harmony' with the Divine within, resonating, if you will with the Divine energies which are also present in truth and absent in falsehood/glamour. An interesting principle in physics is that when one body is vibrating, it will start its neighbor vibrating *if the natural resonance is similar* -- ie if they are attuned to the same or very similar frequencies. The corollary is that when both bodies are resonating, their very vibrations act to stimulate each other and actually increase the intensity of each of their vibrations, resulting in increased amplitude of resonance. ie the whole is louder than the sum of its parts! So when I'm on my path and resonating with the Divine, and other "truth" is offered to me I will know it because it increases the resonance I already feel. If I don't feel an increase in vibes, then I know that the idea being offered does not mesh gears with the truth I am already feeling, so can be discarded. Love and Light, Margaret Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8719 From: "Anni West" Subject: Re: Get "Immortal" on Oprah Hi Sterling and all I am all for your suggestion. Months back JJ also said that it would be a good idea if we could get through to Art Bell. So if anybody wants to do more, here is my suggestion from "The Promoting "The Immortal" page" :-)): "call or write radio talk shows in your country - if you live in the USA you should try telling Art Bell, because he reaches millions. Art Bell pays much more attention to faxes than he does to e- mails. He likes to have a HARD COPY in his hand when on air! Fax no. 775-727-8499 (max. 3 pages)" Let's go for it - let's spread the word!!! :-))))))))))))) Love to you all Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8720 From:"Anni West" Subject: Re: Elaboration Hi keysters When I started getting interested in New Age and The Ancient Wisdom 30 years ago, I always looked at the results the different movements created. Were they working for all mankind or only for a small group? Who benefited from the teachings? Especially did I look at the "leader" - was he making a lot of money on this, living in luxury and taking care only of himself? Or did he use the money from his organization for the benefit of all? Of course I also looked at the way people in the organizations were affected. Did they seem to learn and benefit? Did they develop a higher understanding? Or did they just loose their free will and do a lot of work for some smart guy? Lol It worked for me :-)) Just a few quick thoughts - the word "fruits" tricked me :-)) Love to all of you Anni "We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits?" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8721 From: Susi Subject: Re: Get "Immortal" on Oprah Excellent Idea! Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8722 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Elaboration "Hi keysters" When I started getting interested in New Age and The Ancient Wisdom 30 years ago, I always looked at the results the different movements created. Were they working for all mankind or only for a small group? Who benefited from the teachings? Especially did I look at the "leader" - was he making a lot of money on this, living in luxury and taking care only of himself? Or did he use the money from his organization for the benefit of all?" Of course I also looked at the way people in the organizations were affected. Did they seem to learn and benefit? Did they develop a higher understanding? Or did they just loose their free will and do a lot of work for some smart guy? Lol" It worked for me :-))" Just a few quick thoughts - the word "fruits" tricked me :-))" Love to all of you" Anni" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8723 From: Laura Subject: Kinda OT: Get Immortal *raises her hand* I've just left a message with Oprah, as well. :) I didn't realize that she was still popular though? Laura Sharon and Richard write: "Thanks Sterling, for the timely reminder to do more to bring attention to JJ's book & to JJ. We have just sent a message to Oprah, and i agree if we all write her it could do some good, i know Annie suggested the same thing some months back, but maybe now is the right time. love to all, Sharon" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8724 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: RE: Re: Elaboration Anni I was writing a post on this subject when yours hit my mail. The strange thing is you covered everything I was covering, so I'll just bow out. This was close to spooky. LOL P.S. By the way, my letter is in to Oprah! Your Friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8725 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Elaboration JJ writes: "How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false. We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits?' Truth is the seed, and a deed stemming from this seed is the fruit, containing a new seed and so on. Fruitful action is based on truthful thoughts :) A fruit nourishes current life and holds the seed for new potential manifestations of growth. Truth bears fruit - we can go pick an apple from a tree; but in truth we all carry a lush garden in our hearts. Much love, Samu chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8726 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: Kinda OT: I sent message Message too I sent a message to Oprah also. :-) Caramel Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8727 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: O.T. Y2K strikes early - Possible VCR problems Hi all: I received this from a friend. Just a tip on how to deal with any possible Y2K problems using your VCR: "As a programmer and working with Y2k Issues at the job, I came across something interesting: Here is something I bet you hadn't thought would be an issue for Y2K. You won't be able to use the programmed recording feature on your VCR! Don't throw away your VCR in the year 2000. Set it on 1972 because the days will be the same. Please pass this on because you know the manufacturer will not share this information. They will want you to buy a new one that is Y2K compliant." "Remember 2000 is a leap year (February 29, 2000)" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8728 From: Susi Subject: Re: Elaboration (Samu wrote) "Truth is the seed, and a deed stemming from this seed is the fruit, containing a new seed and so on. Fruitful action is based on truthful thoughts :) A fruit nourishes current life and holds the seed for new potential manifestations of growth. Truth bears fruit - we can go pick an apple from a tree; but in truth we all carry a lush garden in our hearts." I didn't think there were words for JJ's question, I've been seeking them for the whole day.....pondering and searching and here you've found them Thank You. Keep dreaming ;-) Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8729 From: "Yvonne Pisz" Subject: Immortal On Oprah Hi Folks, And great thoughts Sterling. Welcome to the group. I've sent my note to Oprah and I hope many others have as well. For those who are interested, I've copied my email to Oprah below. Blessings, John Hi Oprah, As you've seen, my name is John. And as this is my first time emailing you, allow me to express my appreciation for the emphasis that you and your show have brought forward and into our mainstream. Specifically, I appreciate your handling of the subject of Spirit. You are truly to be commended. On this subject, I'd also like to add my voice to several others that I know have sent you email advocating the book, The Immortal, as well as its author, J.J. Dewey. The book, in its story form, presents a treasure of spiritual principles as well as an excellent understanding of contemporary societal conditions and attitudes. What is perhaps even more interesting is the discussion group that has evolved from readers of the book as well as its author. That group, called The Keys of Knowledge List, located at www.spiritweb.org, is a group which is dedicating itself in varied ways to bringing about a greater public awareness, and activity amongst that public, for the cause of establishing a real and verifiable world peace. This intention is of course quite common in these days. But I think that if you took time to aquatint yourself with the book, a portion of which is available at www.freeread.com, or with the members and activities of the list, you would discover an intelligent group with an intelligent approach towards its aims. And I believe also that there are other such groups of common and committed people who are combining their skills and talents, their time and energy to establish what may one day become the service oriented organizations which will actually make the long held vision of a world of peace a true reality. Perhaps you might even consider profiling one or more of these groups which are forming through the internet and help to bring the awareness of these groups to your audience. How do we know but that this is the way a true age of peace is ushered in? On that note, let me thank you for all of your efforts in this area. I wish you all the best in all of your pursuits. Sincerely, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8730 From: "Xavier Dolleans" Subject: fruits Fruits are the results of one's work. Quote: The Question: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17 What principle was the Master teaching here and how can we use it in the discovery or confirmation or truth? Perhaps some additional questions will get us going here. Where do we look to find the will of God? How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false. We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits? end of quote. "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (he will know it..) by experience, by putting the teaching through the test of action, and seeing what fruits it gives, what results, in the physical world, and in the spiritual one. "what principle"? Creation. Letting words give birth to children;-) The principle could be phrased as this : the value of a theory is measured to the results it gives through practice. The value of a teaching is measured to the evolution it promotes. It can promote evolution for the personality, and for the soul. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8731 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Elaboration J J Dewey wrote: "We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits?" Paul's take on the fruits is in Galatians 5:22-23 - 'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control: against such things there is no law'. I'm sure we could add to Paul's list. It is inevitable that those who have a genuine love of Truth and its application will display these characteristics in their lives. When Jesus was talking about knowing them by their fruits he was saying that 'false prophets' bear bad fruit and genuine teachers bear good fruit. As he taught, people were amazed at his wisdom and his teaching them as 'one having authority...not as their scribes'; in other words, he displayed good fruit, the hallmark of someone people could listen to with confidence. One of the ways of discovering truth is to identify teachers who bear good fruit and to listen to what they have to say. Unfortunately, this gift is missing from the lives of those who feel they don't need a teacher or who are not ready to listen. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Do not cling to anything, to any idea; because clinging is the bondage, even to the idea of enlightenment. - Osho Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8732 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Fwd: Thank you! Received this response tonight from the Oprah show, now we wait to see what develops. Thanks again for the push, Sterling. I'm sure everyone that wrote will be receiving the same response. Hopefully we will be seeing JJ on tv soon. Holding the good thought and sending love to all, sharon Dear sharon hoffman, Thank you for sharing your story with the producers of "The Oprah Winfrey Show". This is just a quick note to let you know that your message has been received. Unfortunately, due to the overwhelming amount of mail that the producers receive, they regret that it is impossible to answer each and every message personally. You can be sure, however, that we do read every single message. If your story seems appropriate for the show, one of the show producers will be in contact with you directly. Once again, we appreciate you sharing your story with us and we hope to see you again soon at http://www.oprah.com! Sincerely, The Oprah Online Staff Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-30/8733 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Immortal On Oprah Certainly a good seed to plant, but be patient with it. Oprah sets a good example. She puts in a long day and has shown that she is willing to adapt when she finds a better way. My brother and I have discussed getting her to read and support his book for years. He didn't think she would go for it, because she was already heavily invested in her own program of diet and exercise. But, I said to Ray that she is ever seeking better things and it's only a matter of time before you get on her show. Then, she began talking about low carb diets and on one show they showed a whole table full of books on the subject, with Ray's book right up front. Then, her "people" asked his publisher for a copy of the book. If she likes it, steps will be taken to get him on the show. But, all these steps take time. A month ago, the news show, "48 hours", set up an interview with Ray. They will be in town for three days this week, filming at his house. The story will not air until Jan. or Feb. What seems so live and now, on TV and in movies, really takes a long time to prepare. I used to build TV and movie sets. We made Christmas commercials in the summer. If you want Oprah to interview JJ, ever, now is the time to plant the seeds. Just don't give up if you don't see him on next week. And while you're at it, there are many celebrities that promote worthy causes, like world peace. Ed Asner comes to mind. Having a few "big" names interested can really help get things going. And most of them are allot more approachable than you might think. I've met quite a few "stars" in the biz and was usually impressed with just how "human" they are, once you get them out from under the spotlights. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8734 From: "Rapter" Subject: O.T. Sirius 'B' Recently J.J. stated in one of his posts that the person holding the office of Christ will someday leave Earth and travel to the Sirius Star System. I wonder if J.J. was referring to Sirius 'A' or Sirius 'B'? I'm wondering because I have it on high authority that Sirius 'B' is not the type of neighbourhood you would like to hang out in. Apparently, there are a lot of bad dudes there who probably would not welcome their new visitor with open arms. Now, Sirius 'A' is another story - a lot of good old boys hang-out in that neck of the woods. ('Tongue firmly logged in check') Keith Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8735 From: "Rapter" Subject: O.T. Points of Truth I love this concept of discovering truth without the aid of 'soul contact'. Now, I know for a fact that I do not possess soul contact. I am extremely envious of everybody on the list who is in possession of this rare pearl of wisdom. I heartily congratulate them all on a job well done! (clap clap applause applause). Now, what I would like to propose is a test for all of us dullards who do not possess soul contact. I propose that the ignorant ones try to figure out whether the 'Shroud of Turin' is the genuine article or just trash by using these other devises like 'common sense', intuition and previous known truths as measures. I will go first, the 'Shroud of Turin' is the genuine article! P.S. The reason I say this is because the 'Shroud of Turin' has a good beat and I think you can dance to it! Now its your turn? Keith. Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8736 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Elaboration Hi all Okay, I am not into giving big explanatory answers (though I do love to read them) but I will give this a try as I understand the questions. JJ writes: "Where do we look to find the Will of God?" I think we find the Will of God by looking within, making soul contact. "How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false." If what we have been taught, that "truth is received from the soul", is true (and I believe it is), then we can only receive the perception as to whether a perception is true or false. As for the Will of God....that perception becomes an individual item and depends on what that individual truly holds as God. "We are also told that "By their fruits you shall know them." What does this mean and how is it a guide to the discovery of truth? What are the different fruits?" These three questions require a book to explain and there are others on the list who write far better than I. Besides I am in a learning mode at the time. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8737 From: J J Dewey Subject: Thoughts on Sirius Thanks for your efforts with Ophra. Another good prospect is Roseanne. She seems to be looking for something. Maybe someone could run down contact information on her. Keith makes a couple comments that warrants a response. He says: "I love this concept of discovering truth without the aid of 'soul contact'. Now, I know for a fact that I do not possess soul contact. I am extremely envious of everybody on the list who is in possession of this rare pearl of wisdom." JJ Don't write yourself off so easily. Soul contact reaches down through several reflections. Most of us have received some type of impression either directly from the soul or reflected through our mental or astral (emotional) bodies. Have you ever had a gut feeling to do or not to do a thing? Have you ever had an idea flash into your mind that just seemed right to you? Paying attention to these subtle impressions are guides that leads you to the still small voice, so still and so small (a zero point) that you will wonder if it is your imagination working overtime. But then if you have faith in this voice and follow it eventually the voice will seem as strong as a rushing of mighty waters and you will come into the oneness principle and know that you are never alone for you always have before you an association with others of higher consciousness who are one with the Voice. Keith continues: "I heartily congratulate them all on a job well done! (clap clap applause applause). Now, what I would like to propose is a test for all of us dullards who do not possess soul contact. I propose that the ignorant ones try to figure out whether the 'Shroud of Turin' is the genuine article or just trash by using these other devises like 'common sense, intuition and previous known truths as measures." JJ Actually the soul speaks in the language of principles and not data. Remember the principle of principles. "A principle can reveal thousands of facts, but it takes thousands of facts to understand one principle." Unless a person is an adept at reading the Akashic records correctly (many read them incorrectly) even one with soul contact must use the same process of discovering the truth about the shroud as the average guy. Even if one has contact with the Brotherhood he will not have the information handed over to him unless he first does all he can on his own to discover the truth and even then the revelation must fulfill some purpose, not just idol curiosity. A lot of research has been done on the shroud and various conclusions have been reached. If one with strong soul contact were to study all the data it is possible that he could follow some guiding principles until he receives an inner confirmation of the truth. To be honest, I have not investigated it in depth for it is not a high priority on my list at present. In another post Keith writes: "Recently J.J. stated in one of his posts that the person holding the office of Christ will someday leave Earth and travel to the Sirius Star System. I wonder if J.J. was referring to Sirius 'A' or Sirius 'B'? I'm wondering because I have it on high authority that Sirius 'B' is not the type of neighborhood you would like to hang out in. Apparently, there are a lot of bad dudes there who probably would not welcome their new visitor with open arms. Now, Sirius 'A' is another story - a lot of good old boys hang-out in that neck of the woods. ('Tongue firmly logged in check')" First, I would like to remind you that the only "good authority" on matters that cannot be scientifically verified is the God within. Also a teacher who has stimulated soul contact in you numerous times should carry weight, but not an infallible weight. All other authorities are suspect. I would guess that this person would be a trance channeler and most of their contacts are from the astral world who are no more accurate than Stephen King would be in writing about a subject. Let us take the information we have from science and inspired writings and see what we can discern about Sirius through the application of the Principle of the Law of Correspondences. Sirius is about 8.7 light years away and is a double star. The main star (Sirius A) has twice the mass of our sun but is 30 times a bright. A planet there with physical life like us would have to be about as far away from Sirius as Jupiter is from our Sun or they would be scorched to death. The double star (Sirius B) is a dying Sun (white dwarf) of about average mass that has10,000 times less light than the main Sun. The two suns circle around each other over a 50 year period. From the writings of the Brotherhood we know that they have a strong presence on this system; therefore we can assume that there would be planets there. Now let us take what we have learned from what is readily available and see how far we can go. I could not find the distance between the two suns, but a 50 year rotation would suggest 500,000,000 miles or more. (If anyone can find this let us know). The large mass of these two suns would suggest 24 or more planetary bodies. I would guess 24 sizable planets and 26 minor making a total of 50. It would be quite possible that each sun has six planets apiece within its own orbit and then around twelve major ones making wider orbits circling around both suns. The outer planet (the sixth) circling Sirius would have a high probability of supporting physical life as w know it. Here the temperature could be very much like earth's, perhaps even edonic. The innermost planet circling the dying sun is the most likely to have life. They would be much closer to their sun than Mercury is to ours, yet only gently warmed by it. The first planet circling both suns would be likely to support life, but conditions would be fierce with cold winters and hot summers lasting over 20 years each. Now if there is life on a planet near the death star and another circling around the bright and shinning star correspondences do suggest that an enlightened race may live near the light and an old and dying race clinging to the past would live near the dying star. Those living on the planet that circles both suns would be one having a great struggle with good and evil and may be quite a bit like our earth. The soul will confirm that these principles are true and taking us the right direction. The data I presented here may not be 100% accurate, but if one really wants to know and contemplates further on the principles involved he can receive additional verification and more and accurate knowledge will be given. Keith actually here has lead us to a seventh principle of discovery: (7) Gather all the reliable information you can about a subject of interest and try and see the principles suggested by the data. Then draw conclusions and run the conclusions by your soul and see if you receive a response. The group has given some good answers to the last question and I hope to cover it tomorrow. We have heard of the principle "as above, so below." This is also called the Law of Correspondences. In other words truth on one level corresponds to truth on another level, but always with subtle differences. Even one cycle of history will correspond to a past cycle. For instance Isaiah tells us that this age we are now in will correspond to the time of Moses. The hard working honest people of today are like the Hebrews who were slaves to the Egyptians, but with one difference. The slaves in the past were s old for money (said Isaiah), but those of today go willingly into slavery for no money. Who are the Hebrews today in slavery and who corresponds to the Egyptians of the present that demand service from the slaves and even want then to make bricks with no straw? Who or where is the Pharaoh? Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8738 From: "Lars Moring" Subject: Prayer For The New Millennium Hi Keysters, I thought the following peace prayer could be of interest to many. Blessings, Lars ************* WHEREVER YOU ARE...JOIN US IN A WORLDWIDE PRAYER WAVE JUST BEFORE MIDNIGHT YOUR TIME ON DECEMBER 31, 1999 Wherever you happen to be as the new millennium arrives, we invite you to join in a world- wide effort to begin this historic period of history linked in prayer with millions of others around the world. We know you believe that prayer works, that it can make a difference in how the new millennium begins and unfolds, and that it can help to energize those who have the solutions to many world problems. The Vision: A minute before midnight wherever you are, as everyone around you focuses on the countdown to the new millennium, intentionally join together with everyone else who is committed to holding this sacred moment. Thus united in intent, each person can spend as long as they want praying in their own way for a common vision of peace, freedom, and the spiritual uplifting of the human race. Imagine if we get hundreds of thousands, or millions of people joining together in this effort. How You Can Help We must inform as many people as possible. If everyone will duplicate this flyer and e-mail or fax it to just ten people or more, we can literally reach millions by January 1, 2000. Also, it would be helpful if participants will then e-mail us at One Moment Of Prayer For The New Millennium information page at http://www.celestinevision.com and give us an estimate of the number of people they know who are committed to unite in this moment. Our plan would be to record the number of participants as it grows, so we will know how large the prayer effort is becoming and can issue press statements. Would it not be amazing if we could reach so many people that this effort becomes the largest prayer vigil ever? Journalists might record thousands, perhaps millions, pausing for a moment in hope and love as the new millennium arrives. Thank you, and remember to send us the number of commitments you know about. With love, James Redfield & Marianne Williamson List Archive keys-l: /1999-48/8739 From: "Lars Moring" Subject: Prayer for the New Millenium Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 8738 Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8740 From: Marylin Subject: Re: O.T. Sirius 'B' Hey Keith Where did you find that information? Sometime back I had searched the net for info on Sirius and all I could find was a general description and where it is. Hah - I can see it every night in the summer months right over our house. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8741 From: Marylin Subject: Re: O.T. Points of Truth Keith writes: 'Now, I know for a fact that I do not possess soul contact." Ah, Keith, have you ever had a really deep "gut feeling" about something? One that you didn't listen too and ended up wishing you had? Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8742 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Elaboration Hi all, :) I just had a caffeine-induced thought here :) JJ asked: "Where do we look to find the will of God? How is following our perception of the will of God a test that proves the perception true or false." and he also wrote earlier: "The truth is that you have power to create what you decide to create and as a reflection of God your creations are God's will." Ok, so if my creations result from my decisions and represent God\'s will, then I think it makes sense to say that to me the will of God is the highest unselfish good I can perceive within which I act upon. If I follow this inner perception of the omnipresent will, my creations will on some level make the world, both mine and those around me, a better place, it will solve and free instead of weighing down or complicating, bringing unity and power thru harmonizing of diversity. Whatever I will will be consistent with God\'s will in that moment of time and space. Just thought I'd share :) Love, Samu Ps. Anybody else unable to login as SpiritWeb member? Samu Karlsson eMail: samu3@dlc.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 Just remember not to forget and you?ll be fine... but you already know this, don?t you? Tm viesti on lhetetty Saunalahden Serverin Webmailista osoitteesta: www.saunalahti.fi Post No. keys-l: /1999-12-01/8743 From: "Sterling D. Allan" Subject: Fw: Points of Truth another friend's interesting feedback. (He mistook JJ's comments for mine.) From: