1999 - WEEK 44 Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7960 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: OT - Interview with God Interview with God I dreamed I had an interview with God. "Come in," God said. "So, you would like to interview Me?" "If you have the time," I said. God smiled and said: "My time is eternity and is enough to do everything; what questions do you have in mind to ask me?" "What surprises you most about mankind?" God answered: "That they get bored of being children, are in a rush to grow up, and then long to be children again. That they lose their health to make money and then lose their money to restore their health. That by thinking anxiously about the future, they forget the present, such that they live neither for the present nor the future. That they live as if they will never die, and they die as if they had never lived..." God's hands took mine and we were silent for while and then I asked... "As a parent, what are some of life's lessons you want your children to learn?" God replied with a smile: "To learn that they cannot make anyone love them. What they can do is to let themselves be loved. * To learn that what is most valuable is not what they have in their lives, but who they have in their lives. * To learn that it is not good to compare themselves to others. All will be judged individually on their own merits, not as a group on a comparison basis! * To learn that a rich person is not the one who has the most, but is one who needs the least. * To learn that it only takes a few seconds to open profound wounds in persons we love, and that it takes many years to heal them. * To learn to forgive by practicing forgiveness. * To learn that there are persons that love them dearly, but simply do not know how to express or show their feelings. * To learn that money can buy everything but happiness. * To learn that two people can look at the same thing and see it totally different. To learn that a true friend is someone who knows everything about them... and likes them anyway. * To learn that it is not always enough that they be forgiven by others, but that they have to forgive themselves. "I sat there for awhile enjoying the moment. I thanked Him for his time and for all that He has done for me and my family, and He replied, "Anytime. I'm here 24 hours a day. All you have to do is ask for me, and I'll answer." --Author Unknown Hope you enjoy. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7961 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re Paul and love Hi Paul, You elaborate replies merit an answer... First my definition of a teacher: He who clarifies and makes tangible, so the student can experience. Paul replies: I assume you were not saying that only that which you experience is possible. I am sorry that's not been your experience, Ben. Ben: Well Paul I'm giving you a chance to have me experience as you do. What use is there in telling me you are sorry? how about trying to show me how I can experience? What is your point here? Paul writes: There is not but one being in all the universe and that being is love or energy. How could it be but that the energy of love permeates all beings? Ben: So? What does that add to my experience? It may be a fact, it may be bull. I cannot verify, so until I do I will classify it as Baloney. I know that water is H2O, but I cannot verify it through personal experience so this fact is of NO practical importance. In my quest for truth I deal only with things that I can personally verify. So I repeat: how can I experience this? the mail continues with claims from your part I cannot verify about the nature of love. Ben: How can I experience this? Paul Yu writes: Desire is the expressed force of the energy of love. The universal becomes polar and polarized when expressed. But the particular expressions are in their ultimate reality the universal. Sorry Paul. I don't agree, love when felt it is free. You can accept it or not. When you feel attraction or desire, you feel the other person wants something from you in return. Love is above the polar world. Paul continues: Love is essentially an attractive force whereby two become one. Ben: What you are describing is by definition not love Paul: Love being the essence of our being Ben: how can I experience this? and then Paul continues to wax eloquent: Since love is everywhere in all beings each being would naturally breathe the air of love participating in its flow in spite of the lack of awareness in the case of those whose consciousness has not as yet awakened. Ben: this all says nothing. How can I experience this? You speak book knowledge. Paul: You can pray for someone, can't you? It is a kind of well wishing, isn't it? Ben: Yes it is, but what kind of? We may not agree about that. Paul: Giving and receiving are the two aspects of love which always go together. There is no giving without receiving and there is no receiving without giving. Ben: not in the real world it isn't that way. One can easily love someone without another person receiving it. It doesn't matter if it is love. Once it matters, it is giving, expecting, and receiving, it is barter trade, and is not love. In this manner one can identify if it is love. Paul, you are extremely wooly and vague, presenting things like you know the magic that makes them click, it comes across like you are talking about things you learned from a book, and have not experienced yourself. You then mix half truths, truths and misconceptions. What makes you think your views are special? Why do you think you know? Regards, Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7962 From: "Darlene Williams" Subject: Re: Chapter 34 J.J, I want to know how you advise parenting a child, especially a teenager, when they do not want to do things which teach responsibility and cooperation, like cleaning up after themselves instead of leaving dirty clothes and dishes all over the home. How do you advise us to correctly use power to influence them to assist in the efficient running of a family without taking away their freewill to not do anything except watch t.v., etc. We are moving and I asked repeatedly for our son to pack up his room and help to put it on the truck. He couldn't be bothered with this. I explained that we really needed his help and cooperation to get this done in a timely manner. All to no avail. So, in your interpretation of what the correct use of power is how do I best achieve our goal of moving into our new home? Do I just leave his stuff at the old house, including him? Do I pack it up and clean up after him so it gets done? What is the answer. Frustration mounts on both sides as this issue grows. I'm afraid that it is much easier to talk about how this exercise of power is Godly than to actually use it in the world in which we find ourselves. All of this advice on how to use power without restricting freewill presupposes that the person will actually at some point come to the same conclusion you have that what is being asked for is in their best interest and therefore they should cooperate. But the truth of daily life doesn't always seem to reflect this desire for ultimate cooperation. It is all well and good to use this in areas where it doesn't really matter what gets done or if the two people have similar goals and can communicate clearly. However, it seems when two people are at opposite ends of a desire that leaving their freewill as the overriding theme won't bring you any closer to the goal of cooperative effort. Help. I really want to be able to come from this viewpoint, but I'm having great difficulty in making it work in this "real world" we have chosen to experience. I don't think there is any example that is more worthy of discussion than how to implement this right use of power within the family unit. I believe all of us on this list want to correctly use our power and to come from a place of love and unity in our actions. The problem arises when those close to us do not hold that same goal and there is a situation to deal with in a timely manner. Thanks for your timely input into the practical application of these theories. Darlene J J Dewey writes: RIGHT USE OF POWER When we speak of power, we refer to any power, influence or authority we have over another person's life by position, birth, finances, love, enlightenment, respect or other means. A parent has power over children. Do we use our power to merely satisfy the separative, selfish, little self or do we use it to benefit our fellow men and women? When we take the Covenant, we promise to use this energy toward union. When power is directed toward union, then we use any power or influence we have over our fellow humans to promote the cause of freedom for all, and bring unity and goodwill to all relationships. 3. The offense of using power to destroy freewill. This is one of the worst "sins" we can commit, even if we are trying to force someone to do the right thing. We may think we are doing a good thing when we force a friend to go to church, counseling, or whatever, but unless a person is mentally insane or seeking to take his life, he should not be forced to do anything right or wrong. He will learn from his mistakes, but he will not learn by being protected from them. It is all right to influence with knowledge, truth, and facts. This influence still leaves the power of decision in the mind of the receiver. But when we go so far as to say something like: "Do this or I will not loan you the money." "Do this or I will not love you." then we have an attempt to take away the freewill of our brethren. This is terribly wrong. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7963 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Re Paul and love Ben writes: "You elaborate replies merit an answer... First my definition of a teacher: He who clarifies and makes tangible, so the student can experience." Paul replies: "I assume you were not saying that only that which you experience is possible. I am sorry that's not been your experience, Ben." Ben: "Well Paul I'm giving you a chance to have me experience as you do. What use is there in telling me you are sorry? how about trying to show me how I can experience? What is your point here?" Dear Ben, I said sorry, Ben, because experience is not teachable. If you wanted to experience something about reality, being or oneness you would have to condition yourself for it. You would have to neutralize your polarized thoughts by means of acceptance of them and then transcend separative thinking by means of intuiting. In order to succeed in this you would want to start with neutralizing your emotional reactions by means of being aware of them without further reactions. The work actually involves the whole spiritual path you are on. Paul writes: "There is not but one being in all the universe and that being is love or energy. How could it be but that the energy of love permutes all beings?" Ben: "So? What does that add to my experience? It may be a fact, it may be bull. I cannot verify, so until I do I will >classify it as Baloney. I know that water is H2O, but I cannot verify it through personal experience so this fact is of NO practical importance. In my quest for truth I deal only with things that I can personally verify." Paul Yu: If you only deal with things that you can personally verify in a practical manner, you could never get to the realm of the soul let alone things beyond the soul. Soul to me is the focal point in matters of truth as far as we are concerned. "So I repeat: how can I experience this?" Paul Yu: Are you talking about experience of things of the soul or things of the personality? You cannot experience things of the soul if you insisted on practical verification the way you explained it above. "the mail continues with claims from your part I cannot verify about the nature of love." Paul Yu: The nature of love is verifiable but not the way you insisted on, namely, by logical reasoning on tangible facts. Ben: "How can I experience this?" Paul Yu: By becoming impersonal. Paul Yu writes: "Desire is the expressed force of the energy of love. The universal becomes polar and polarized when expressed. But the particular expressions are in their ultimate reality the universal." "Sorry Paul. I don't agree, love when felt it is free. You can accept it or not. When you feel attraction or desire, you feel the other person wants something from you in return. Love is above the polar world. Paul Yu: True, love is above the polar world. But love's emanation, desire, is situated in a polar world. The crux of evolution is precisely identified as returning of desire to being love again. Paul continues: "Love is essentially an attractive force whereby two become one." Ben: What you are describing is by definition not love" Paul Yu: I see we disagree on the definition of love. What is your definition of love? Paul: Love being the essence of our being Ben: how can I experience this?" Paul Yu: Mystical experience, if you will. "and then paul continues to wax eloquent: Since love is everywhere in all beings each being would naturally breathe the air of love participating in its flow in spite of the lack of awareness in the case of those whose consciousness has not as yet awakened." Ben: this all says nothing. How can I experience this? You speak book knowledge. Paul Yu: The fundamental question here seems having to do with the definition of experience. Is experience exclusively personal in the sense of consciousness on the personality level? Paul: You can pray for someone, can't you? It is a kind of well wishing, isn't it? Ben: Yes it is, but what kind of? We may not agree about that." Paul Yu: My point was a prayer could be an act of wishing somebody well. Paul: Giving and receiving are the two aspects of love which always go together. There is no giving without receiving and there is no receiving without giving." Ben: not in the real world it isn't that way. One can easily love someone without another person receiving it. It doesn't matter if it is love. Once it matters, it is giving, expecting, and receiving, it is barter trade, and is not love. In this manner one can identify if it is love." Paul Yu: I was not speaking of the real world. I was referring to the real love situation between two beings. What you say is very true in the real world. "Paul, you are extremely wooly and vague, presenting things like you know the magic that makes them click, it comes across like you are talking about things you learned from a book, and have not experienced yourself. You then mix half truths, truths and misconceptions. What makes you think your views are special? Why do you think you know?" Paul Yu: I am not speaking from a book and my views are not special. I believe I know what I know because I have experienced what I am talking about. Consciousness is a tremendously vast space of ocean. I have tasted just a drop or two of the water of truth. Unless I experience a truth on the soul level I would not claim it to be spiritually true. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7964 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Chapter 34 Darlene writes: "We are moving and I asked repeatedly for our son to pack up his room and help to put it on the truck. He couldn't be bothered with this. I explained that we really needed his help and cooperation to get this done in a timely manner. All to no avail. So, in your interpretation of what the correct use of power is how do I best achieve our goal of moving into our new home? Do I just leave his stuff at the old house, including him? Do I pack it up and clean up after him so it gets done? What is the answer. Frustration mounts on both sides as this issue grows." Hi Darlene Oh boy, been there, done that. Now am doing it again with grandsons. My daughter learned a great lesson when she was still in high school. She refused to clean up her room after we repeatedly asked first and then told her to do so. What it came down to was this......we told her that if she didn't put the dirty clothes in the hamper and hang the clean clothes, everything we found on the floor would go into a trash bag and out the door. After a couple of days of no response from her, we did just what we said we would. It took two big black trash bags to hold everything. We decided we didn't want to replace all that much in clothing so we placed the bags on the back patio where she usually came in. I wish I had had a camera when she went into the room and rushed out demanding to know where her clothes were. We told her. The whole problem is that to this day, even at almost 40 years, her closet floor is still covered with clothes. I just sit back and laugh now because she is the one who has to pay for the clothes and make the house payment, etc. I just make sure my room is clean. LOL Boys are another breed.......no offense meant gentlemen. If they have computer privileges, ban them from the computer for a week the first time, two weeks the second time, etc. That's what works best here. Good luck to you. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7965 From: J J Dewey Subject: Fear of Fear I hope everyone had a nice Halloween day. Artie and I went to a dance and costume party and we had a good time. She dressed up like Mary Catherine Galliger from Saturday Night Live and I dressed as a Priest (her idea). Rick - Do you have any word as to when the archives will be up and working again? Ever since the Course In Miracles was published it seemed that the term "fear based" has been thrown with reckless abandon. Zia writes: "And it is interesting because these comments formed the foundation of my disagreement with the Song. I find a beauty in the song, but feel there comes a time when we are capable of standing in the power of who and what we are, that protection is known, an already given, rather than the need to protect and seeing myself separate and requiring protection, which I discovered was really only in regard to my own fear, and thus protection was for holding my energy, rather than draining my energy in the direction of the object I feared. (and thus empowering what I feared!!)" "Truly when we completely let go of fear as a foundation for reaction, yet note its presence and determine its validity if any, then soul/spirit/God is complete protection, and through it's guidance a course of action is determined. Without a like energy of fear resident within me, the distorted energy can but pass through, finding no home here!! Then I am free wherever I be!!" JJ To insinuate that the fine people saying this song are doing so out of a base of fear is, I believe, a judgment in the negative sense. I know Zia wants to stay away from judgments, especially negative ones, so I would like to say a few words about the Song so she and others will cease judging me and others (who enjoy the wording of the song) as acting from a base of fear. First Verse: We thank you Father that you have revealed to us your protective universal light; that within this light is complete protection from all destructive forces; that the Holy Spirit of Your Presence permeates us in this light, and wherever we will the light to descend. This is different from the wall of light that Jennifer accurately wrote about. Seeing a wall of light can produce some separateness (not necessarily fear). Instead, the Song calls for a revelation of the Universal Light of God which is already omni-present. The Light is here already, we just need a revelation to become aware of it. A high enough awareness of this light brings "protection from all destructive forces." Then willing the "light to descend" can transfer some of your awareness of the Light to another who is linked to you through Love. The second verse reads: We thank you Father that you fill us with your protective fires of love; that within this love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings; that the consciousness of Christ is lifted up in us in this love, and wherever we will the love to be enflamed. Light can be revealed, but Love is a creation in duality among various life forms. In the void of complete oneness there may be peace but there is no love. Love is a creation similar to fire in rubbing two flints together and can only exist where there is more than one. Love is the attractive force between two or more lives. In the case of the Song it is the attractive force between the higher and lower self. When our lower self allows and wills this attraction, the God within then responds and the fires of the inner Love are manifest. When they are manifest to a high degree there is then created "protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings," for such thoughts and feelings flee when such love is present. The word "protection" seems to be a thorn in the side to many, as if protection is always a fear based thing. In answer to this I ask: Is it fear based to wear a raincoat to protect you from the elements? When you come home in the evening and your house is on the cold side, is it fear based to turn up the heat to protect you from the cold? Is it fear based to steer your car down the road to protect you from crashing into other cars? Silly, isn't it? If protection is fear based then there is no way for us to escape fear for we all desire protection in many ways. We do not build a beautiful home (that protects from the elements) out of fear, but common sense people do it for the positive goal of more abundant living. To see any word in our language as a fear creating thing is to generate a fear of fear. This brings to mind the famous quote of Roosevelt: "The only thing to fear is fear itself." This phrase was revealed by the Brotherhood to Napoleon Hill who gave it to the President. If we eliminate the fear of fear then the fear of words will disappear and then we can use even words such as "protection" to our advantage. It is over zealousness that sees the Song as fear based unless one is personally saying it in response to some fear of fear. But even if this is the case, in many instances, the Song will reduce, rather than increase fear. I am working on a response to Rob's posting and should have that ready tonight. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7966 From: Laura Subject: Re: Fear of Fear Zia writes: "And it is interesting because these comments formed the foundation of my disagreement with the Song. I find a beauty in the song, but feel there comes a time when we are capable of standing in the power of who and what we are, that protection is known, an already given, rather than the need to protect and seeing myself separate and requiring protection, which I discovered was really only in regard to my own fear, and thus protection was for holding my energy, rather than draining my energy in the direction of the object I feared. (and thus empowering what I feared!!)" JJ: "To insinuate that the fine people saying this song are doing so out of a base of fear is, I believe, a judgment in the negative sense. The word "protection" seems to be a thorn in the side to many, as if protection is always a fear based thing. In answer to this I ask: Is it fear based to wear a raincoat to protect you from the elements?" Zia, JJ, & others: I personally do not say the song as something that I do out of fear of anything, at least not at the present time. I say the song because I know it is a source of the awakening of the Light, Love and Power of the Higher and because it brings both joy and comfort to my soul. When we 'sing' of the word Protection in the Song, I don't envision as much of a wall of Protection against ferocious attackers, but the warm, gentle protection of a mother looking out for her children. A silent but omnipresent faith and guidance that surrounds us and lets us know that we're never alone. JJ is right in that there is nothing to fear but fear itself. There is no point in worrying about anything, because what will happen will happen. It will either be good, bad or indifferent to you. Fretting and stressing over a situation will not make it any better, but it may make you worse. When a situation presents itself that causes you concern, take what actions are in your power to prevent an unfortunate outcome, and sit back and wait for fate to play itself out. The Song is a very peaceful, comforting thing to have and to say on a regular basis and helps reduce stress, if nothing else. I'm kinda surprised, though, Zia, that you had problems with the Song and interpreted it as fear-based. You seem like such a joyous and light-minded person, I would have thought you'd take the Song with open arms *smiles* But then again, I had problems with the covenant when I first read it too, so I can quite understand how initial reactions can somehow lead you astray. :) Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7967 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Re BJ and influencing: Ben Meijer writes: "What about us? You may be an island in an ocean, but we are little islands as well and we interact. Lots of the little islands do that to their own not touching others, but...." BJ here, Interact, yes! Influence, still our choice, if we are not aware of exactly what our own beliefs are, yes, we choose, by not taking responsibility of our own beliefs and knowing what they truly are. Not all choices are conscious ones. We can LET subliminal messages take effect, if we have no objection. Still our choice. Ben "So even unconsciously we can be influenced. Did you think that consciously, like with all the billboard and commercials during shows on TV, would NOT influence you? If it didn't they wouldn't show those commercials would they? We are all influenced. It is not something we can do too much about. Watching movies about killing influences the emotions and ideas of the people watching it. Lots of people go for the thrill of it. Some deranged people lose their the dividing line between movies and reality and start to do what they see. But please realize that we are influenced by what we see and experience. If we see a lot of violence we get used to the violence. Monkey see monkey do. Of course this is not 100%." BJ, "And the reason it is not 100%, is because of our belief systems or lack of knowing ourselves, in many ways. Influence still requires a decision by the recipient. Subtle or not. We make so many decisions, that we may not realize that we are making them at every turn in the road. Reactions, still require decision, no matter how fast. Our beliefs allow this to be instantaneous. Ben, "Influencing in advertising works best in the following manner: You see an ad for washing powder. You go in a shop, had not yet made up your mind (key!!), and what brand do you think pops up?" BJ You still choose. It is your decision, a very conscious one. "How more intelligent people influence each other: say 4-6 things/statements that are true, then throw the untrue suggestion in at 7 or 8 then continue with 2-3 truths. Here is what the unconscious mind does: It checks number 1,2,3 for truth, maybe 4,and 5. By that time, it gets lulled to trusting and number 7 is accepted by the fact that the previous ones had built up trust. Hey this is no magic info, hypnotherapists use this info about the working of the mind to influence somebody, (usually in a positive direction of course)" BJ When you are more aware, of your own powers, you do not LET another, group items together for you, and then swallow them all. You take the time to decipher every thing that comes your way. Ben "Until you recognize that you can be and are influenced you cannot do anything about it. You have to conscious of what is happening before you can." Yes, you must always recognize that you LET yourself be led, if you don't lead yourself. Always choosing, BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7968 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Kaliswar Greetings to All, Wow Caramel, that is him!! Interesting that the web address has an h in the spelling and not Kaliswar... but that is indeed Swamiji Kaliswar... Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention... yes Satya Sai Baba was Shirdi Sai Baba in his previous life... and one year after he passes he will reincarnate as Prema Sai Baba. I find it interesting that Kaliswar's mentor/teacher is Shirdi Sai Baba, the previous life of Satya Sai Baba his physical teacher now. Satya Sai Baba's teacher is Krishna, in the position that Kaliswar holds Shirdi Sai Baba. Hope all that makes sense... and well done to find that site. The original book by Howard Murphet was 'Sai Baba MAN OF MIRACLES'. All are very worth reading for understanding 'miracles', and the laws of this universe etc. Yes I met Sai Baba in a conscious meditation, and thought he was from New Guinea, so was looking at books on New Guinea, when in Australia. Then one night in pouring rain I was sent to visit some new friends, living in a caravan before their house was built. We crowded four of us into the tiny caravan, and I spoke about my 'New Guinean'!! Annie had a book and showed it to me... ahhh that's who it is. Well needless to say, after several meetings in consciousness I went to be physically present. More than once too!! That's another story! Yes, I believe the more we do to open to Masters, Avatars etc in consciousness, the more we are lifted and evolved and inspired!! I will check out your Babaji site as well. Have known quite a bit about him over time, never thought to look up any of these guys on the internet!! Thanks for your directions, In love and Laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7969 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Who or what am I Ben Meijer writes: "I've been at this point before. Fully choosing for things, yet sometimes regressing to leaning on autopilot mode. I still don't have the feeling I've reached the end of searching. What is the next step? Anybody?" Acceptance, of what you know, what you think you know, and what you will never know in this lifetime. Dive in, and reflect who you are, until you become, whatever is next for you. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7970 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Chapter 34 Greetings to All, Hello Marylin, I certainly enjoy your being straight forward in your replies to Darlene! Yes I even agree, boys are another breed, and the memories carried genetically, and habits learnt through environment... just different responses. What I have sought to do is apply the laws of our universe, and our world. Now we have been taught about karma, cause and effect. Well I just call karma - consequences. And as you did, consequences are determined, and agreed to, and fully understood. Since I am the owner of my house, and yes my child/ren are on borrowed time with me, there are laws of the house, and there are consequences - karma!! There is also good to this, when giving to help and assist great things get given (extra) consequences of the laws of karma. And yes, the computer is such a motivation, and for some like my son, it seems to be their life blood at times!! That's fine, it gives us the grounds for communication, and co-operation, and consequences, since we all love to use computers. This will be true in the working world when these children leave home, and so are we not preparing them wisely for the world? I do not see this as taking away free will, the child decides to do other than the agreed laws of the house, it has consequences. That is their choice and free will. I do not see this as an abuse of power, it is operating in your own power, and not giving your power away to a very manipulating child that simply wants everything their own way, and all of the life to be for their entertainment. NOw all children are not like this, yet left to their own resources many would be. When the child knows you are for real, the story stops replay mode. That to me is standing in your own power, and being consistent as the laws of karma are!! In love and laughter, ZIA Marylin says: "Boys are another breed.......no offense meant gentlemen. If they have computer privileges, ban them from the computer for a week the first time, two weeks the second time, etc. That's what works best here." Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7971 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Fear of Fear Hi everyone, If the bad guys were extremely powerful in the eyes of the good guys the bad guys posed a threat to the good guys. The good guys would naturally fear the bad guys. It would be logical for the good guys to seek protection from their powerful allies. If the powerful bad guys posed no threat to the good guys there would no need for the good guys to seek or even to think the idea of protection from their allies. Why protection if there were no threat at all? The idea of protection presupposes in normal cases that there are two camps separated and opposed to each other. They want to destroy each other. As it is, the two camps are indeed opposed to each other but their opposition is designed to bring about the concord or oneness of the two sides. All they have to think and do about each other is for one to accept and embrace the other and oneness will be achieved. No need for any other measures than those of love. Fear is the most profound feeling in the human psyche. The power of fear lies in our ignorance of the unknown and also in referring to fear in an indirect way. The only effective way to dispel fear is to scare it by looking right into its eyes. We don't protect ourselves from fear; we don't seek outside protection to resist fear. We just look into fear's eyes and say "I love you, my ignorant baby". Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7972 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Fear of Fear J J writes: 'If we eliminate the fear of fear then the fear of words will disappear and then we can use even words such as "protection" to our advantage. It is over zealousness that sees the Song as fear based unless one is personally saying it in response to some fear of fear. But even if this is the case, in many instances, the Song will reduce, rather than increase fear." JJ You have made a very revealing point, about fear and protection. There is one thing, that I know about the song, and it is that, it is special, and there is no fear of any kind after saying it. It does bring peacefulness, and the feeling that the only thing to fear, is fear itself. I have felt this for a very long time and the song, makes that point even more prominent. The song is perfect to me, for me. Thank you for publishing it. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7973 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Fear of Fear Greetings to All, And to JJ, I find it wonderful that you interpret what I say so differently to my intended meaning, yet that is so true in life. Hopefully I will be able to better clarify now. JJ: "To insinuate that the fine people saying this song are doing so out of a base of fear is, I believe, a judgment in the negative sense. I know Zia wants to stay away from judgments, especially negative ones, so I would like to say a few words about the Song so she and others will cease judging me and others (who enjoy the wording of the song) as acting from a base of fear." Zia: First of all I felt no sense of insinuating anything about anyone else in regard to the song, and I feel no judgment whatsoever for those saying the song. I too loved it for awhile and had many lovely experiences with the song, until I experienced something different which is recorded in the archives. To the best of my ability I provided communication from my experience. To call upon protection from an outside source to who and what I am, implies for me a rather fearful state of mind. Why? Because I have separated my identity from what I am. And yes that is fearful. This may not be the same for anyone else JJ. It is simply true for me. For me to remind myself of who I am... that brings me joy and the power necessary to overcome any obstacle I may have placed in my mind. It is also much shorter to do in time!! At the same time, a picture for me is worth a thousand words, also shorter and faster, and all encompassing to my mind. Since I have learnt a great degree of focus of my mind, the words are really repetitions for me, and I want an alert mind, focused on the desired outcome. This is my choice JJ, not an expectation of you or anyone else on this list or in the world. JJ: First Verse: We thank you Father that you have revealed to us your protective universal light; that within this light is complete protection from all destructive forces; that the Holy Spirit of Your Presence permeates us in this light, and wherever we will the light to descend. This is different from the wall of light that Jennifer accurately wrote about. Seeing a wall of light can produce some separateness (not necessarily fear). Instead, the Song calls for a revelation of the Universal Light of God which is already omni-present. The Light is here already, we just need a revelation to become aware of it. A high enough awareness of this light brings "protection from all destructive forces." Zia: Yes I agree totally here JJ, and that high awareness is what saying the song could initially create, and then that understood and maintained in understanding does produce complete protection... why because you are who you are... and that is invulnerable, invincible, impenetrable... surely we say the words because we have forgotten, and in forgetting often enter into fear... even in your book, when Elizabeth is confronted by a very fearful entity it is saying the words to the song, that helps her overcome her fear, and stay focused. Well ultimately we know who we are, and that identification provides our knowing, and thus our empowerment. Partial separation, how does one do that? Either you are one and whole and complete, or in separation from that oneness... partial is total separation. Progress, and understanding leading to progress means exactly that... we progress and create powerful thoughts that sustain us on whatever level we are individually or collectively. Not to allow me to progress and let go of the concept of fear, and feel I am judging others or insinuating something for someone else... that I can only say is a very fertile imagination. Not something I have engaged in here. Again I would say to you JJ, this is my experience, and what my glorious soul showed me... and has evolved within me as so many things I have learnt in my life. JJ: Then willing the "light to descend" can transfer some of your awareness of the Light to another who is linked to you through Love. Zia: Since I am the light, simply loving another, or simply holding that person in my thought will automatically hold them in the light of love. I am certain you have experienced thinking of someone briefly, and suddenly they contact you, or you have a 'chance' meeting. Holding that person even for an instant in your thought... shines the light of love into the oneness of both. And they come together. Or one is healed.... I feel it is quite simple... just a thought... looking at a picture... what effect if God were to just look at you, would that have upon you?? Does God have to say, fix this fix that... JJ: The second verse reads: We thank you Father that you fill us with your protective fires of love; that within this love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings; that the consciousness of Christ is lifted up in us in this love, and wherever we will the love to be enflamed. Light can be revealed, but Love is a creation in duality among various life forms. In the void of complete oneness there may be peace but there is no love. Zia: This may be your experience, it is not mine. For love to be in all of creation it is reasonable for me to consider love is the foundation of the void. How could there be peace, yet no love? I see that there is complete love and that we may interpret that as peace or anything else for that matter, for that is what it may feel like... in reflection. JJ: Love is a creation similar to fire in rubbing two flints together and can only exist where there is more than one. Love is the attractive force between two or more lives. Zia: I wrote before, that love for me is a state of being... like the foundation state of being... inherent in all things. I had long asked to see the 'power' of love. So JJ do you see God in original eternal life before the reflection into matter as being devoid of Love? If that is the case, it would seem to me that love is a man-made creation... I am just speculating here, trying to understand what you say. And since God is but ONE what happened to Love? When we come together in oneness, will that be the end of Love? I know that sounds absurd. JJ: In the case of the Song it is the attractive force between the higher and lower self. When our lower self allows and wills this attraction, the God within then responds and the fires of the inner Love are manifest. Zia: I see God as all encompassing love. And I the creation/reflection of God am that all encompassing love. This lower self, body mind consciousness, when choosing to know love (remember love that it separated from), in that desire, all that is not love (called fear, even in the Bible) dissolves away, and the Lower/Higher become ONE in Love, because that is what we are and forever will be. JJ: When they are manifest to a high degree there is then created "protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings," for such thoughts and feelings flee when such love is present. Zia: This is exactly what I said and have experienced, the fleeing of any thought away from love, that is not love. It does not require me to do or say anything, but be the love I am, who I am... that is the true power and protection. So there must come a time, when this is created for all of us. Otherwise, how could we have a molecule since for me 'destructive thoughts and feelings' would be encompassing fear in some form? The words were a tool to achieve an understanding, and acceptance of who we are determines the reality. JJ: The word "protection" seems to be a thorn in the side to many, as if protection is always a fear based thing. In answer to this I ask: Is it fear based to wear a raincoat to protect you from the elements? When you come home in the evening and your house is on the cold side, is it fear based to turn up the heat to protect you from the cold? Is it fear based to steer your car down the road to protect you from crashing into other cars? Silly, isn't it? If protection is fear based then there is no way for us to escape fear for we all desire protection in many ways. Zia: Well once you have your house, do you continue to think about any 'fears of the cold'? Perhaps you might if you need to start a fire or you may just keep the fire going from the pure enjoyment of the fire, yet comfort and temperature are achieved in many different ways. No it is not fear based. Once you understand and accept who you truly are then the fear is gone... and you make decisions on what? Since I see God's creation for God's enjoyment, that just might be the decision... even for healing... so one can enjoy life, rather than living in the fear of death!! Just a perspective. JJ: We do not build a beautiful home (that protects from the elements) out of fear, but common sense people do it for the positive goal of more abundant living. Zia: I agree, yet perhaps the first house or shelter was from fear of being cold, wet or whatever, or just for the enjoyment??... and JJ when I talk to people in my readings, you would be amazed at the things people say they fear, in their common speech... 'I'm afraid my boyfriend is seeing another woman', 'I am afraid I won't have the money for ...' they see smoke and are afraid their house might be on fire!!! There are but two states of mind, for a time... love and fear. That I have certainly tested out, and found true for myself. Now you may have found many more. For me that state of love, the only state of mind, is peace in my mind. JJ: To see any word in our language as a fear creating thing is to generate a fear of fear. Zia: What does that mean JJ? 'Haunted House for Halloween', can create fear in some people... talking about the 'dead' can create fear in some people. Are these fear creating words? Well to some people. And when you talk of the Dark Brothers, and Evil... and especially when the priests of old etc talked of these things... well did they create fear in some people? You know fear of fear... well that would just keep someone locked in fear by focusing on it!! Just trying to define it would be a conundrum!! LOL JJ: This brings to mind the famous quote of Roosevelt: "The only thing to fear is fear itself." This phrase was revealed by the Brotherhood to Napoleon Hill who gave it to the President. Zia: Really?? Which one? And the truth might just be, when you let go of fear, being the noun applied to any thing, you know, ooohhh that's scary, a haunted house!!... then the verb 'to fear' may have no meaning. JJ: If we eliminate the fear of fear then the fear of words will disappear and then we can use even words such as "protection" to our advantage. Zia: Why will we need the word protection if there is nothing to fear?? What would I protect myself from? JJ: It is over zealousness that sees the Song as fear based unless one is personally saying it in response to some fear of fear. But even if this is the case, in many instances, the Song will reduce, rather than increase fear. Zia: I never ever said the song was fear based, so who is over zealous here?... and as a child seeks protection from its parent, yet when it grows up knows it no longer needs that protection for now it is wise... that child become adult turns and laughs at its fears of yesteryear. This does not happen to all, many continue to remember their fears, and pass them on to their children... holding tighter, with greater fear. And your final sentence was the intent of the song in my humble opinion, to reduce fear, change the focus, and identify with who and what you are. Once accepted in all reality, that knowing sets us free. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7974 From: Mark D Williams Subject: Archives & Thanks JJ, I got your package of Book I(s) and bumper stickers today. Thanks. Thanks also for your recent post on Decision-Purpose. It helped clear up a lot of things for me. For those interested, I have placed it along with the other posts and info on Decision at: http://members.xoom.com/keysarchive/decision.html Rick, I wondered if you have heard any more news about when the Spiritweb Archives will be back online... I am trying to retrieve the posts from November 18, 1998. If anyone on the list happens to have a digest of those, would they please email them to me. Thanks. Mark D Williams voxdoc@yahoo.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7975 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Fear of Fear Greetings to All, Oh Paul, thank you... that is so funny I laughed nearly falling off my chair... exactly. I do not wish to be cut off from anything, there is nothing to fear. And there is no fear here!! Yes yes yes, and when we look fear in the face... ahhhhahahhhhhhhahhhhhhhhhhhhh it is so funny! This is a classic post... thank you, one day I will find your wonderful words of expression rather than so many long ones of my own!!! I just love it! In love and laughter, ZIA Paul Says: If the powerful bad guys posed no threat to the good guys there would no need for the good guys to seek or even to think the idea of protection from their allies. Why protection if there were no threat at all?" "The only effective way to dispel fear is to scare it by looking right into its eyes. We don't protect ourselves from fear; we don't seek outside protection to resist fear. We just look into fear's eyes and say "I love you, my ignorant baby". Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7976 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Fear of Fear Greetings to All, And how lovely to hear from you Laura. "I'm kinda surprised, though, Zia, that you had problems with the Song and interpreted it as fear-based. You seem like such a joyous and light-minded person, I would have thought you'd take the Song with open arms *smiles* But then again, I had problems with the covenant when I first read it too, so I can quite understand how initial reactions can somehow lead you astray." Laura I did not create the interpretation of the song as fear-based. JJ did. And perhaps that's how most people on the list will now associate my writings. Yet I understand the intent of the song, and it gave me a lot at a specific time... how, I gave the song its power, its meaning, and its fulfillment. And then I was given that was no longer necessary. Why, because I am the Light Love and Power, and need give that to nothing to protect me. Why, I need know protection when I know who I am. I made no insinuations, nor would I consider myself over zealous... yet these words coming from JJ will perhaps get applied to me. They are his creation. And they are quite funny too!! Whatever brings one joy, peace and power within themselves is important, and I see that we continue to evolve, and that everything on this list is for our evolution, and how we choose to use it is up to each one individually. When the need is satisfied, well we move on... since I realised I needed no protection, to continue saying words to that effect... well not necessary. I am so glad you see me as you do. For that is how I see myself, filled with joy and light- minded... great expression. And it is important how we see ourselves, and also to recognise that not all others will see us this way. And that is okay too. Thank you for your thoughts and sharing. "MS Mincho" In love and laughter, ZIA Ps you know if there is nothing to fear but fear itself, well then one has still chosen to fear and for me that is basically a waste of time! Fear devoid of any person, place, thing, time or event, does not exist at all!! LOL now we are home free!! Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7977 From: esberk1 Subject: Please unsubscribe esberk1@erols.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7978 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Babaji Greetings to All, Just a further comment as I checked out the Babaji website, and had never thought of looking for websites on all these people. Caramel: I have visited website links of Sai Baba's teachings. Looks like they all bring the same message: Basically: God loves us all, live in peace, etc. Zia: And profoundly for me, each one also brings the message, that you are God, and have all the powers, light and love inherent in that heritage or lineage. In studying each one, they have all said this, and brilliantly demonstrated this truth with their parables-through-miracles. Caramel: The Hindu boy I saw in my dream, however, was not the one from the link above. It was this one: www.babaji.net/picturegallery/picturegallery.html The boy I saw in the dream was dressed like in picture 16. In other words, he had no other clothes on but just that. I did not see, however, any markings/painting on his face though. He looked like in picture 1, but as thin and young as he looks in picture 9, but yet definitely dressed like in picture 16. The smile I described as wonderful and compassionate was like 3. It knocked my sox off to see that I purchased the same beads (or very similar) to the ones he has in pix 39. Why did it shock me? Because I have a catalog of products from India and other catalogs as well (I shop through catalogs a lot) and out of so many to choose from, I chose precisely that one and purchased it. How did I know whom the boy was? I have a friend who's a devotee and when I saw pictures in the room I recognized the face. Zia: This is a beautiful story, and must validate your focus/meditation and provide you with such joy and insight in sharing with these wonderful beings, and doing so not physically but validating our abilities in consciousness. Caramel: I've had more dreams with other hindu masters, but never with Sai Baba. I do love his messages though. They are certainly inspiring. :-) Zia: I too, I am so surprised that so many teach the same thing, and in such a variety of ways, that offer inspiration to the world from so many perspectives, yet saying the same thing. Most encouraging. I also find the beings that come to us have usually known us in the past, perhaps we have been past students, etc or there is a close personal connection. Love is a wonderful glue pulling us together in that regard... like to like! Caramel: God, I believe, always sends messengers of light to guide us. We are very priviledged to have JJ. I sympathize with hindu philosophy, I love to read their teachings, but still refuse, so far, to tie myself to any particular religion. Zia: I too feel privileged that we have so many teachers, and understand that religion can be very limiting, and very tied to dogma. What I find enchanting about the various Hindu religions, is their practices that generate so much energy, insight and love. Oddly enough I see that 'Aquarian Age' as honoring the individual, their spiritual practice and progress, without an intermediary between themselves and God. Hence my understanding is that as we choose oneness and love with our fellows, our gatherings will be united in Spirit and in Love, and we will be guided in this gathering so that the honoring of each individual is foremost, and that personal goals for the display of power, whether it be spiritual or material will not be the order of the day that brings energy and enlightenment. I love that in so many different Hindu temples, I have been accepted, and not required to become a part of their religion to be accepted and loved. I have found this true of the many Hindu masters/avatars etc I have been privileged to meet and share with, whether physically or in consciousness. I do not believe organised religions is the way of the future either, nor do I believe that those great masters had this as their intent for what came after they passed on. This is purely my personal feelings. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7979 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: The Secret The Secret (from another list) The Creator gathered all of Creation and said, "I want to hide something from the humans until they are ready for it." The eagle said, "Give it to me, I will take it to the moon." The Creator said, "No. One day they will go there and find it." The salmon said, "I will bury it on the bottom of the ocean." The Creator said, "No. They will go there too." The buffalo said, "I will bury it on the Great Plains." The Creator said, "They will cut into the skin of the Earth and find it even there." Grandmother Mole, who lives in the breast of Mother Earth, and who has no physical eyes but sees with spiritual eyes, said, "Put it inside of them." And the Creator said, "It is done." --- Author Unknown Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7980 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Boys ... another breed?? Why Men Are That Way by Kristen Philipkoski Two X chromosomes do not necessarily make a female, according to recent research. A researcher at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston created a strain of transgenic mice whose offspring all turned out to be male, and every one of them had a double X chromosome. In other words, the X and Y chromosome combination may not determine male gender. Instead, the new research suggests that male gender is determined by two genes, called Sry and Sox 9. "Females are 'repressed' males and males are 'repressed' females," said researcher Paul Overbeek, a professor of cell biology at Baylor. Sry is located on the Y chromosome and is the gene that researchers believe normally determines male gender. The researchers discovered that Sox 9 is the gene that regulates Sry expression. Researchers theorized that males either have some system for turning Sry on or that females have a system for turning it off, Overbeek said. In fact, his research proved both theories to be true. It turns out that the normal XX female does not express Sox 9 because it is suppressed, while the normal XY male gonad does express Sox 9. "We eliminated the female ability to suppress Sox 9, and as a result of that, the XX mice expressed Sox 9 and that is sufficient to get the normal pathway of male development to occur, even in the complete absence of a Y chromosome," he said. Overbeek, who presented his findings last week at a late-breaking research session at the American Society of Human Genetics conference, believes the same holds true for humans. The importance of Sry in determining gender was discovered by Dr. Robin Lovell-Badge of the National Institute for Medical Research in London about two years ago. "Although it was known to be the critical gene on Y, how it functioned was not yet so well established," Overbeek said. The male XX mice were sterile, which leads researchers to believe that germ cells --those that make sperm -- are created by other genes located on the Y chromosome. Overbeek created the transgenic mice by injecting them with a gene called tyrosinase minigene -- a gene that cures albinism. Overbeek had no inclination that their offspring would be males with two X chromosomes."The original intention was to make mice that had interesting mutations," Overbeek said. "We just didn't know what we would end up with." Next, Overbeek plans to create the same type of transgenic mice intentionally and continue to study the mice. There is a significant obstacle to the research, however. Since all of the offspring are male, the researchers can't breed them. "Our transgenic family is not a stable genetic system," Overbeek said. "You can't make females, so it's an evolutionary dead end." The work could answer a long-pondered question: Who came first, Adam or Eve? "We don't know which came first even from our research, but the system is set up so that the pathways for male or female development are essentially encoded completely in the genome of the male and female both. One simple genetic switch sends the developmental program in one direction or another," Overbeek said. "Males and females are really very much genetically the same." Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7981 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? Greetings to All, Gee this was quite an informative article Christopher, thank you for including here. And wow what a mutation, that was a dead end... that is really startling. I just want to put forward an understanding from the Hopi Indians regarding whether we came from male or from female originally. It seems in their folklore and in the Sitchin books, that there is a great possibility that since Ninhersag (and I have probably misspelt that) was the geneticist... and female, and used her own genes etc in the creation of the human being... that possibly we evolved from females. The Hopi also sights one amusing concept... why do males have tits/nipples whatever word works here, when it has no significance for the male, and if the male were first... why would he have an insignificant part, rather than none, and yet appearing in the female, strictly as a female part of the anatomy if she were developed secondary? When I heard this it caused much laughter for me!! Hope it does the same for you!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7982 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Re Paul and love That water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, is not known to you. It is just information that you have accepted as fact, relying on the authority of others. I, on the other hand, know it is true because I have actually split water into hydrogen and oxygen, using electric currents and then tested the resulting gasses to prove what they were. You are right for wanting to experience Truth for yourself and your driving desire for it is your strongest tool. But don't expect JJ, Paul, John, me or anybody else to be able to provide you with a tangible method for getting at the One Truth. The Truth we seek is found in a realm that flips logic on it's head. There is no one set way, for everybody, to get there. One can only hint at the principles that will lead you there. Hints like, "SEEK and you will find, KNOCK and the door will be opened", come to mind. One is not seeking if he thinks he already has found. If you admit that you do not know and then commit yourself to finding it, you will not find it, but it will find you. And when it does, you won't be able to prove anything or even describe it to most people's satisfaction, but it will be more real than anything you have ever experienced and there will not be any doubts whatsoever left in your mind. Is there a technique that will lead to this kind of experience? Yes, and one of the best ones is given in the Immortal. Ask the question, "Who or what am I really" (or for that matter ask that about anything whatsoever, it's all the same question in the end.) When you get an answer, say, "but that's just a certain aspect of it, that performs a certain function, so what is it of which this is just an aspect?" Strip away one layer at a time and you will get closer and closer to the center. How do you know when you have reached the center? You will be at the center of everything and you will know it. You will be a bright light and will know it without doubt and so will all the others, who have already been there. They will know you and you will know them and none will ask you to just take their word for it. And, I think that's as close as anyone is going to come to handing IT to you on a silver platter. No amount of words will get any closer to explaining IT, but when you do find IT, you will see what all the words were trying to say. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-01/7983 From Rick Audette Subject: Re: Archives & Thanks The archives are still under construction, at Spiritweb. When finished, we will be able to get to them via the link provided at the bottom of each post (next to last line at the bottom of list mail, reads http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/keys-l.html I'd ask the web master, but I'm sure he gets asked that a lot and I'd rather he spend his time fixing it than answering my questions. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7984 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? "The Hopi also sights one amusing concept... why do males have tits/nipples whatever word works here, when it has no significance for the male, and if the male were first... why would he have an insignificant part, rather than none, and yet appearing in the female, strictly as a female part of the anatomy if she were developed secondary?" And you take their word for it? Male mammary glands can do everything females can do. If you really were perfect already and had all the answers, how is it that you did not remember that this is so. Therein lies the difference between Being perfect and becoming perfect. Show me someone that says He is perfect and I will show you a con artist. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7985 From: J J Dewey Subject: Sex 101 Rob writes some interesting comments and questions. Rob "It is also my understanding that sharing on the mental and emotional levels is possible among 2 or more males or 2 or more females (as in friendships)." JJ There are physical, emotional, mental and spiritual sharings that are possible apart from sexual or romantic relations and then there are others that are linked and enhanced by such relations. Sexual relationships will not be a part of the energy flow of the Molecular Relationship with the exception that the act may aid in the stability and union of the atomic male/female units. On the other hand, there will be many atomic units who will be working partners and sex will not be involved. Both types of units along with their associate partners have an equal opportunity to share he higher energies. In addition the twelve units (each unit composed of two or more) will share with other units. Then after numerous molecules are created the molecules will share a still different kind of energy with other molecules. This is an experience that has not yet been had among mortals. Apart from sex, individuals and units will share physically through touch, handshakes, hugs, circles and healing practices. They will share emotionally through friendship and love. They will share mentally through planning, dreaming, executing ideas, learning and teaching. They will share spiritually through the circulation of the Holy Spirit creating one life from the many. Rob "But in gay relationships the genitals don't 'fit' together, therefore excluding gays from union on the physical level. "Taking all this into consideration I can only conclude, then, that gay sex can't possibly be a correct use of sex energy since the act can't produce union." JJ Sex itself between male and female (or gay sex by that matter) of itself does not produce union. If it is done for physical pleasure only it will only enhance separation in the long run. If it is done with en eye toward union of unlimited duration it can be a solidifying factor. One of the purposes of sex is the balancing of energies, not so much individually, but in the couple as a unit (or one flesh as the Bible says). If the male has a charge of +1 and the female a -1 their joining can create a close to zero charge for the greater unit and when zero is approached the higher spiritual energies flow with ease. Now the charge of the gay is already close to zero. If you have one male with a charge of +.2 have sex with another with +.1 then little balance is achieved. The ideal would be for the gay male to override those past life feelings of his lives as a female attracted to male and look for a female with a -.2 charge. Then the sexual relationship can open a channel for the higher energies. The interesting thing about gays is if they are not swung out of balance through sex with their own sex they are naturally closer than the heterosexual, to the ideal zero point, where lies the spirit. That is one reason that when they use soul energies on an individual basis apart from sex that they excel. A extremely high percentage of creative artists are gay. This is evidence that the gay has a great advantage to being close to the zero point. It is naturally easier for him (or her) to bring down soul energies if he is not thrown out of focus. This is the reason that Jesus gave the following advice to gays: "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. "For there are some eunuchs (gays), which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men (castration): and there be eunuchs (Gays and some hetros seeking the spiritual single life), which have made themselves eunuchs (a neutron, or balanced in energy) for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt 19:11-12 A "eunuch for the kingdom of heaven" is one who has a close to zero male-female charge who dedicates himself to the celibate life so he can take advantage of his close position to the zero point and thus work mightily with the spiritual energies. Jesus said that this was not for everyone, but those gays who are ready for this commitment will feel it internally. In fact many gays have been lead to celibacy in various religious orders for this reason and a handful have done it of their own initiative. I remember reading a quote from Andy Warhol (a famous gay pop artist) when he was still alive stating that he was celibate. This man was very highly extolled for his creativity. He was obviously able to move the physical creative energies of the sacral center up to the throat center and make full use of them in connection with the soul. Rob continues: "Yet I experienced something recently that would prove otherwise. Passing another man in a grocery store our eyes happened to meet and *ZAP*--my breathing caught; it was like time stood still. I could have been gawking there for an hour for all I know, until I finally came back to myself. "In the Immortal you described a similar experience when the character JJ met Elizabeth. That your soul put forth a charge of energy to you both indicated that a relationship--and later marriage--was the correct way to proceed. "My question is this: Why would my soul (if that's what it really was) send forth a charge of energy if sex among gays is an incorrect use of sex energy?" JJ The experience you describe sounds like something I have had several times when I was in the single state looking for a partner. I am also sure that many on the list have felt similar experiences which can happen to either the gay or hetro. There can be numerous reasons for such an immediate attraction. A common one is a subconscious recognition from past life association. Another one is a similarity of evolution. If both are above average on the path there can be a recognition. A third one is similarity of ray energies. A fourth is a mutual attraction on the physical level that will trigger an emotional effect. None of these experiences will assure that the couple will have a correct use of sex whether gay or straight. The experience I had with my wife was fairly unusual in that in addition to the falling in love feeling that most of us have experienced at one time or another I received a message that she was brought into my life to help me complete my mission. Because I received this through the Spirit I knew instantly that I should proceed and I proposed before we even had an official date. Because she received the same message she accepted even though her personality self questioned her sanity. Some time ago my oldest sister (not the one who died) visited us with a boyfriend and announced they were getting married. We said back, "but you've only dated about a month." Then she said, "but you and Artie certainly didn't wait around and it's worked for you, didn't it?" We looked at each other and then back at my sister and had to admit it did work for us, but we both had a feeling it may not work for her. She insisted that lightening struck and was going to take the big step. She got married about a week later and then divorced about six months later. The guy was totally wrong for her but because the falling in love feeling is so close to the flow of the Spirit she was deceived into thinking God was directing her. It is much easier to receive accurate direction through the soul when romantic love is not involved for when it is, the feeling is so overwhelming that we often feel that we are being divinely guided towards the relationship. When two people feel an attraction and let down all barriers to union then there is manifested a flow of soul energy not unlike the feeling that comes when we are open to the Higher Self or to a higher entity working through the soul. For most of the populace the soul energy through falling in love is their only real contact with soul force and there are many who have not experienced this, but sense what it would be like. Then when the higher contacts come one must learn to differentiate between the soul energy of romantic love and other types of guidance through the soul. Many like my sister can misinterpret and this can lead to costly mistakes. Then when the discernment is acquired a very accurate guidance through spiritual contact can be maintained. This should be the goal of all of us. I have had my soul guide me into relationships with other men, but it was to fulfill some purpose related to group work. In fact Rob, when I met you on the internet years ago I received an impression to work with you even though others in that teaching experiment dropped away. The guidance was accurate. Since then you have had many ups and downs yet you are still here with us and still progressing toward a destiny greater than you know. As far as energy released through sex is concerned the sexual act is a lower manifestation of soul energy. The soul force itself does not differentiate or judge rightness or wrongness in the flow of energy. Instead it is the variables that energy filters through that determines if the end result is a positive or negative experience. Even though both gays and hetros can experience similar feelings through sex and romance, as I said earlier, the gay relationship can never create the zero point where the highest spiritual flow is created because two positives or two negatives added can never equal zero. One thing I find of interest is that gays and fundamentalists Christians often seem to see each other as natural enemies on the opposite ends of the spectrum yet both face a similar obstacle in the way of their progress. And what would that be? Answer: Letting go of the past and moving on. The fundamentalist is stuck in a black and white mindset thousands of years in the past and can't recognize any truth unless it is in his version of the Bible. The gay is stuck in his attraction mindset of his past life and has difficulty letting go of it even though his energy has shifted to a new sex. This is not meant as a critical statement for I can understand the problem. Presently I am strongly attracted to the female sex. If I woke up in the morning in a female body I would have difficulty in making the adjustment even though my natural flow of energy has changed from male to female. A change in thought has to follow the energy. For gays the sooner the thought follows the natural energy the quicker will be their spiritual progression. There is one sexual act that nature has sent many signals and signs with the purpose of teaching us to avoid and that is anal sex. Anal sex affects the chakra at the base of the spine which is the foundation of the life energy. Anal sex reverses to some degree this flow and can affect the health and vitality of the recipient. The blood which flows through our bodies carries the life energy to us and is closely connected to this center. This is why AIDS is closely linked with anal sex for it is spread through the blood which is linked to this center. One of the reasons that AIDS has materialized in this generation is as a sign that we should cease disturbing this foundation source of life. This message does not apply to gays alone for many hetros also engage in it with similar consequences. We must face the fact that all diseases and all pain has a cause behind it and we must always find those causes and change them so we can have effects that are desirable to maintain a happy healthy life. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7986 From: Xavier Subject: super OT Annunaki was Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? Zia writes: "It seems in their folklore and in the Sitchin books, that there is a great possibility that since Ninhersag (and I have probably misspelt that) was the geneticist... and female, and used her own genes etc in the creation of the human being... that possibly we evolved from females." Hi, I'm just reading a Sitchin book, and yes Ninhursag created the Adam, but they were hybrids, and sterile. It is Ea, a male Annunaki, the brother of Enlil, who made these hybrids between apes and Annunakis become fertile and live longer. To do this, he studied the secrets of the bread and water of life that these guys had brought from their planet. They had brought em because the orbit of their planet taking 3600 years, they aged of one year while earthlings age 3600 years. So they needed these "fruits of the tree of life" to keep their aging slow. Funny story, I wonder what Initiates think about it.:-) And I do prefer sumerian names to degenerate latin, greek, Babylonian and even egyptian;-) lol Like Zodiac ("animal circle") in greek that comes from a word that means "the shiny herd". Ahh much better;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7987 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Protection JJ wrote: "Seeing a wall of light can produce some separateness (not necessarily fear). " Thank you JJ, for saying this more accurately. The truth is I was never afraid in the psych. hospital. It really was that I did not want to create a barrier that would separate me from the people there by putting a wall of light around myself, This would have been to work against my purpose, which is unity. I also want to make a point about the Song. Exactly the same words can be sung but the singers can have more than one aspect in mind. For example, the second verse, in part, says, "We thank you Father that you fill us with your protective fires of love; that within this love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings" So I can be thinking about protecting myself from the destructive thoughts and feelings of others, and/or I can see that if I am filled with love I will not think destructive thoughts and feelings. Thus I will be protecting MySelf from myself. If my goal is spiritual unity then this 'protection' will be of great assistance to me, as unity is obviously more easily accomplished without the separation that is inherent in destructive thinking/feeling. Initially Zia, I too baulked a little at the notion of protection in the Song but for the reasons I have alluded to in my post, and that JJ gave in his, I became very comfortable with it early in the piece. I know I can count on you to give it some more thought. It certainly would be great to have your beautiful voice in the choir! Love Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7988 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Fear of Fear J J writes: "It is over zealousness that sees the Song as fear based unless one is personally saying it in response to some fear of fear. But even if this is the case, in many instances, the Song will reduce, rather than increase fear." Hi JJ and everyone I have found this to be quite interesting. I may be an odd ball, but I have viewed the Song from a different perspective. When I say the first verse I "see" Light (sometimes white sometimes golden and occasionally indigo) as above, around AND within me. Isn't that permeates means? In the second verse I "see" the Love in my heart and spreading outward, clear out of my body. I have used the Song when I have been upset about something I could do nothing about and it helped me to become peaceful again. I analyze "fear" when it comes my way as to whether it is a true fear or if it is just a "dread". Fine line between the two.If someone says to me "I am afraid it is going to rain", I know it is not a real fear, but more of a dread. I dared to ask someone once why were they afraid it would rain? Of course, the question caught them by surprise and they didn't have an answer. My problem as such times is being conscious of my own thoughts and breaking the "habit" of thinking, "Are you afraid you will melt?" "................destructive thoughts and feelings." Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7989 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Protection Dear Zia You write, "Why, because I am the Light Love and Power, and need give that to nothing to protect me. Why, I need know protection when I know who I am." I know where you are coming from on this but to take it right down to brass tacks, I might agree with the concept that I am Light and Love and Power but I also know I have not come into the fullness of this realization yet (or I wouldn't be here!). If this were fully realized in me I wouldn't live the way I do. For example, one of the things I know about myself and who I am is that I am a single mother. Accordingly I protect myself and my daughter by locking my front door at night. I take out income protection insurance in case something happens to me and I am unable to support us. I do not do these things because I am afraid but because I also have some understanding of others in my world and know there are people who break into houses and physically hurt others, and I know myself sufficiently to know that I still occasionally get injured. I'm sure you too protect you and yours, even if it is simply by eating a healthy diet or providing warm clothes for your kids to protect them from the cold in winter. (Zia, I may well be wrong - it has occasionally been the case before! LOL - but there seems to be a pattern being repeated here - not in the CONTENT of your posts but in the MANNER of the interactions between you and JJ and his teachings, which I could easily see leading to the same conclusion of you leaving the List like you did last time. Do you want to go down that path again?) Love Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7990 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Boys ... another breed?? Chris writes: "It turns out that the normal XX female does not express Sox 9 because it is suppressed, while the normal XY male gonad does express Sox 9." Hey Chris.......lighten up a little and laugh every now and then. Have you ever been a mother? We ladies have a "silent code" that we live by to dispel frustrations when it comes to children. It's different for each of us and science will never break any of them. I am sure that fathers also have a silent code for the same reason. And science will never break that code either. When I said "boys are different breed" I meant their way of thinking at their particular age, which changes as they grow older and is completely opposite when they are "old". At least that is what my observations were with my late husband who was 69 when he passed on. I see some of myself in you, when I was much younger. Far too serious all the time, never taking the time to laugh, love, enjoy and smell the roses. You know any good jokes? Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7991 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Protection Jennifer wrote: "JJ wrote, "Seeing a wall of light can produce some separateness (not necessarily fear)." "Thank you JJ, for saying this more accurately. The truth is I was never afraid in the psych. hospital. It really was that I did not want to create a barrier that would separate me from the people there by putting a wall of light around myself, This would have been to work against my purpose, which is unity." "I also want to make a point about the Song. Exactly the same words can be sung but the singers can have more than one aspect in mind. For example, the second verse, in part, says, "We thank you Father that you fill us with your protective fires of love; that within this love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings" "So I can be thinking about protecting myself from the destructive thoughts and feelings of others, and/or I can see that if I am filled with love I will not think destructive thoughts and feelings. Thus I will be protecting MySelf from myself. If my goal is spiritual unity then this 'protection' will be of great assistance to me, as unity is obviously more easily accomplished without the separation that is inherent in destructive thinking/feeling." Hi Jennifer and everyone, We actually live in separation most of the time but we try to undo the separation. The way you dealt with the situation, Jennifer, is as you have described above. In this scenario protection was geared to the situation of separation or the destructive thoughts and feelings and at the same time you were activating your love the best you could. Your effort was made to increase your love whereby to protect you from your separative or destructive thoughts and feelings. Another scenario to deal with the situation could be that you started with your being as one with the ultimate reality without any separation. Despite any experience of separation you would not attempt to protect yourself from it. You would instead allow the experience to be present under your supervision or awareness. The reason being that you are not but the one being and filled with love. No protection would naturally be necessary in this scenario. One can of course choose one or the other scenario. Though there is a difference between the two none is to be condemned. To show the difference between the two scenarios however and thereby the progressional stages of development is sometimes useful, even necessary. This seems to be the point of the discussion. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/7992 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Protection The simplest of all protections is to acknowledge the unconscious fear within yourself that you are projecting and which is acting as a magnet to draw "attacks" to you in order to show you the existence of this fear. Anything you create consciously is a separation and will draw its opposite to your unconscious which you will most probably experience in altered states of consciousness and in your nightmares Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/7993 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: super OT Annunaki was Re:(OT) Boys ... another Underneath the myths and legends lies the truth of you the truth of your genetic past back to the creation of the species. If you put away what you have been taught, and learn to read your DNA as you would the growth rings in a tree Then you will remember the truth of you. There is more wisdom in a tree before it is cut down, pulped, turned into paper and covered with the written word Christopher Wynter Xavier wrote: "Hi, I'm just reading a Sitchin book, and yes Ninhursag created the Adam, but they were hybrids, and sterile. It is Ea, a male Annunaki, the brother of Enlil, who made these hybrids between apes and Annunakis become fertile and live longer. To do this, he studied the secrets of the bread and water of life that these guys had brought from their planet. They had brought em because the orbit of their planet taking 3600 years, they aged of one year while earthlings age 3600 years. So they needed these "fruits of the tree of life" to keep their ageing slow." Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7994 From: J J Dewey Subject: Deliverance from Evil Zia, you may not think that you have presented the idea that you are judging us as being fear based for using the word "protection," but to me, and I believe the majority on this list, it certainly appears that way. Here's the way you come across: "I am in this high and holy place where I dwell in only blissful love and I am beyond the need for fear based concepts such as protection. Those who cannot see as I see are obviously spiritually retarded and cannot feel the love as I do." You have not literally said this but that is the feeling that many receive from your comments and you seem oblivious to this. You are always talking about yourself and how you feel and how glorious your lovefest with God is, yet I have rarely felt much more from you than a trickle down condescending sympathy for not attaining the high and holy place that you possess. Let us look at one of the core teachings given by the Master of us all. He taught us how to pray by giving us what is now termed "The Lord's Prayer. In it He said: "And lead us not into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL..." To say that we are ahead of the Christ himself to the extent that we need no protection of deliverance from evil is quite a leap. I try not to put myself ahead of the Master, but apparently there are some that do. Jesus went on to practice what He preached and later told Peter that He was concerned about him and prayed that he would be protected from evil so he could be successful. I have met quite a few people of both philosophies here, but have never met a person who sees no need for protection who has accomplished much more than dreams of glory. I know one guy who thinks he is the Lord of the galaxy incarnate and he sees no need of protection of any kind. On the other hand, every single historical person I can think of who has accomplished good in the world has seen the need for protection in one form or another. Such initiators are not afraid of fear and can use all the words of both polarities in a positive way. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7995 From: Laura Subject: Note to All American Citizens!!!!!!! It's Tuesday. It's November 2nd. Have you voted yet today? Please remember that it is the conscious decision and choices that we make as a country on this day that govern how our cities, states and nation run. Are you fed up with it? Make your will known. In my city many new candidates have arisen with fresh and bright ideas, the excitement of the promise of public office shining in their eyes. They have not yet been corrupted by the Beast and I see great promise in these young politicians. How about you? Are there issues being voted on that you feel strongly about? Vote!!! Are there people you don't want to see in office? VOTE!!! It is your right as an American and your responsibility as a Spiritually Aware Person (LOL.. that spells out SAP.. I didn't mean that:) to vote today! If you're up north, especially near Cincinnati, it's cold, it's wet and it's windy. So what? This is your day out of the year to make your opinions and beliefs make a difference. Vote! Vote! Vote! -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7996 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Deliverance from Evil J J writes: "You have not literally said this but that is the feeling that many receive from your comments and you seem oblivious to this. You are always talking about yourself and how you feel and how glorious your lovefest with God is, yet I have rarely felt much more from you than a trickle down condescending sympathy for not attaining the high and holy place that you possess." Whoa! Hold on here. There is some pretty strong wording there, JJ. Now, I will agree that some of Zia's posts are downright giggly, while others are simply "out there" (and this is ONLY my own opinion/perception). But I have never felt slammed or slighted by any of her posts. Nor have I felt her to be slamming or slighting someone else on the list. I have no intention of "defending" Zia in this matter (if she feels that defense is needed, I know she can take care of herself). I just want to point out for the record that at least one person does not perceive her comments in such a manner. However..... I will never understand how she can go on and on gushing about Paul Yu's posts. [Just kidding, you two!! : ) ] ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7997 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Deliverance from Evil J J Dewey writes: 'Zia, you may not think that you have presented the idea that you are judging us as being fear based for using the word "protection," but to me, and I believe the majority on this list, it certainly appears that way. Here's the way you come across: "I am in this high and holy place where I dwell in only blissful love and I am beyond the need for fear based concepts such as protection. Those who cannot see as I see are obviously spiritually retarded and cannot feel the love as I do." lol I love straightforward expression "You have not literally said this but that is the feeling that many receive from your comments and you seem oblivious to this." Well this may be a passing thought and feeling, but not more, as far as I'm conscious of what I feel. "You are always talking about yourself and how you feel and how glorious your lovefest with God is, yet I have rarely felt much more from you than a trickle down condescending sympathy for not attaining the high and holy place that you possess." Oh, this is harsh, JJ. I hope Zia wont be hurt by it. She always talks about it, yes. But it's not true, IMO, that she has little sympathy for others. Indeed she brought me much in ICQ chat, though we usually end up clashing;-), but that's for other reasons I believe. Why are you hurtful? is the question that arises. She openly tries her best to bring people to better light and love and power, and she's very good at it, when the need comes. My trouble with her is that she also tries it when what I am saying needs reception, not emission. Well I hope everyone is gonna take some deep breath and cold thought on that issue, because I find your post very aggressive, and I wonder the reason why. "Let us look at one of the core teachings given by the Master of us all. He taught us how to pray by giving us what is now termed "The Lord's Prayer. In it He said: "And lead us not into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL..." Oh, is it the real meaning of the original prayer? BTW, we would love to hear how you would retranslate it. I personally can't say it repeatedly because i feel a big disturbance with the meaning of the words of it. "To say that we are ahead of the Christ himself to the extent that we need no protection of deliverance from evil is quite a leap." Well, the point is right. "I try not to put myself ahead of the Master, but apparently there are some that do." Do you really believe they do? What do you really mean? I wonder if truth bearing is necessarily provocative, and teasing ego. I have that problem when I try to teach, and I'm someway glad that you manage to "stir" my flegm;-)) "Jesus went on to practice what He preached and later told Peter that He was concerned about him and prayed that he would be protected from evil so he could be successful." "I have met quite a few people of both philosophies here, but have never met a person who sees no need for protection who has accomplished much more than dreams of glory. I know one guy who thinks he is the Lord of the galaxy incarnate and he sees no need of protection of any kind." hahah lol we should see one of these once in a while, for fun and enlightenment;-) On the other hand, every single historical person I can think of who has accomplished good in the world has seen the need for protection in one form or another. Such initiators are not afraid of fear and can use all the words of both polarities in a positive way." Well IMO, these are excellent points that you are making, besides the hurtful aspect of many phrases. Yes, Mages do protect themselves, they're no fools. I dont mean Zia is a fool, of course. I am the entitled fool here, and I could win a contest anytime lol. Where's John Wayne? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7998 From: Xavier Subject: OT Re: Protection Paul Yu writes: "Another scenario to deal with the situation could be that you started with your being as one with the ultimate reality without any separation. Despite any experience of separation you would not attempt to protect yourself from it. You would instead allow the experience to be present under your supervision or awareness. The reason being that you are not but the one being and filled with love. No protection would naturally be necessary in this scenario." If I recall a dream I had where I ended up teaching a demon lord that had attacked me (after I had finished my life and died), both are necessary. Somewhere in your high consciousness, oneness is, but I still have, even as a "soul" (astral traveller), need for protection. The key for winning was that I did not let fear overcome me, but yes I let it stimulate me to find an answer. And yes, if my vibes were lower, he would have got me. So both planes are necessary. On the low planes, you are dualized, and you risk your state of being. On the inner planes, you are love incarnate (maybe not in the low planes?) and thus you receive completude to any situation that arises. I still remember a little the way I had dived into me to answer that beautiful attack;-) But this was a dream. And yet, I felt better and more conscious of all my abilities than ever. When you're in a grace state, you're above the law of polarities in that you cant be hurt, you find the right reaction. But we are not in that state most of the time, so we need a philosophy that is adapted to our dualised painful state, and helps us rise above it. Soul is soul. In soul world, there is no duality and no evil. We agree,. But you'll agree that on the three planes ont he personnality, there is duality, pain, and all. That's all that matters. How must one deal with it? Do you advise to dive our minds in soul consciousness? I and others advise to dive our minds in earth consciousness, respecting its laws, while keeping a good contact with the soul. Both come together : the better grounded, the better enlightened. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/7999 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Note to All American Citizens!!!!!!! Laura wrote: "Vote! Vote! Vote!" I couldn't have said it better myself. And thanks, I nearly forgot! ;) Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/8000 From: Margaret Leach Subject: Re: Deliverance from Evil JJ - Your comments are very harsh and strike me as judgmental. And you purported to speak for 'the majority on this list'. I don't remember being consulted... I too have to wonder what's going on here. Did you and Zia clash in a previous life and it's being carried over to this one or what??? A little more openness, acceptance and grace would be welcome here, from my perspective. With love, Margaret L. Post no. keys-l: /1999-11-02/8001 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Babaji Zia: I completely agree: religion can be very tied to dogma and I had enough of fear based-fire and brimstone dogma until I was 18. Yes, maybe we were students in a past life. Who knows! About websites: Even Mother Teresa has info on the Net. check out: www.drini.com/motherteresa/own words for great words of inspiration from her. Of course it wasn't her whom did the webpages, but the devotees of this wonderful woman. Also, I recall seeing webpages on Sai Baba. When I find it, I'll let you know. Blessings, Caramel Zia wrote: "I too feel privileged that we have so many teachers, and understand that religion can be very limiting, and very tied to dogma. What I find enchanting about the various Hindu religions, is their practices that generate so much energy, insight and love." Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/8002 From: QBey264450 Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Kaliswar peace .......... is there anyway to contact swamjii kaliswar and are any of his discourses available in english.............qadwi Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-02/8003 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: OT Re: Protection I wrote: "Another scenario to deal with the situation could be that you started with your being as one with the ultimate reality without any separation. Despite any experience of separation you would not attempt to protect yourself from it. You would instead allow the experience to be present under your supervision or awareness. The reason being that you are not but the one being and filled with love. No protection would naturally be necessary in this scenario." Xavier wrote: "If I recall a dream I had where I ended up teaching a demon lord that had attacked me (after I had finished my life and died), both are necessary. Somewhere in your high consciousness, oneness is, but I still have, even as a "soul" (astral traveler), need for protection." "Soul is soul. In soul world, there is no duality and no evil. We agree,. But you'll agree that on the three planes on the personality, there is duality, pain, and all. That's all that matters. How must one deal with it? Do you advise to dive our minds in soul consciousness? I and others advise to dive our minds in earth consciousness, respecting its laws, while keeping a good contact with the soul." Hi Xarier and everyone, I was speaking of experiences of fear on the personality level which might involve the soul and not experiences on the soul level alone. It is a question of choice as to what to believe. Are you really threatened or not? If you believed that your fear was based on reality you would react one way. If you believed that your fear was based on ignorance you would respond to the situation in a completely different way. It is therefore a question of in what direction to dive within the mind. In the direction of soul consciousness or merely earth consciousness? It is not a question of whether to stay in the soul or in the personality. For how could we not stay in the personality while experiencing fear? All experiences are grounded. However, you are what you believe. Energy follows belief. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8004 From: Dehara Subject: Alternatives Re: Fear of Fear Dearest Keysters, I believe we are coming together to share the vision of waking up and becoming fully conscious. Conscious to the experience of our own divinity. As we come together in like mind to witness our process, It is my desire that we support each other's unfolding path. Beliefs are the colored lenses that filter out from all-that-is what we wish to experience. Remember, in our awakening is the world's. We are all, World-Wide Beings of Love. The hu/man body is a product of beliefs. DNA is a product of beliefs. Light, Love & JoyFull Visions, Dehara Moonstar Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8005 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: Deliverance from Evil JJ wrote: "On the other hand, every single historical person I can think of who has accomplished good in the world has seen the need for protection in one form or another. Such initiators are not afraid of fear and can use all the words of both polarities in a positive way." If we follow the limiting beliefs and patterns of the past, then how are we to explore new possibilities. How are we to evolve ... if we hold on to something just because a past example held true in the past then that is where we will remain. The appropriate word here is need. What happens if someone were to decide that they did not need..? Isn't that the hallmark of a being in at-one-ment ... that such a being has no need. I do not ask why .. I ask why not ... in this way, exploration is possible (and thus we came to learn that the earth was not flat) BTW .. who's fear is it that you are experiencing ... is it yours or some long dead ancestor. Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania anunda@anunda.com http://www.anunda.com/notebook.htm Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8006 From: Xavier Subject: OT Re: OT Re: Protection Paul Yu writes: "However, you are what you believe. Energy follows belief." X: The DK phrase is: "Energy follows thought" followed by something like : "and adapts itself to it" : takes its shape or whatever that I didn't get. Anyone has the right quote? Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-04/8007 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re: OT Re: OT Re: Protection No, not I .. but I wonder how much of what you think are your thoughts ... and how much is the reprocessed thought of what you have been told you should think or the regurgitated thoughts of people who have been dead a very long time coming up out of the cells of your body ... or the thoughts of other people that you have attracted to you from the Universal soup We seem to be a race of unconscious parrots echoing the dreams and disputes of ages past .. in sometimes different words to suit the time and place ... Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-04/8008 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? I always remember that it has been a long time since a boy has been born that did not spend about nine months in the womb of his mother alone with her internal thoughts .... Now if you were to spend 9 months continuously in the crowd of a football or baseball stadium ... Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8009 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: get in or stay out Hello Keysters, I have missed you and I hope you've missed me too. I am now a grandmother and will get more pictures in the photo album soon. I have a jpeg if you want it just ask me. I have caught up on all the posts now and have a few comments. I have personally met, looked into the eyes, hugged and smelled JJ, Artie, and now John Wayne Kline. I don't understand the mindset of petty bickering. If you are still reading, if you are still here, if you are still doing the meditation and saying the prayer, if you are going in the same direction we are and you believe what believe why would questions like weather or not there is evil and the need for protection even come up? We are all here by choice. We chose to join JJ and the Brothers. I don't need you or you need me to make that commitment. However, why would anyone want to stop me by disagreeing with what I believe? We are here because we believe. If you are here because you believe great, we agree and can move forward. If you are here for any other reason then try to stay out of our way. We are busy and if you're not helping you are in the way. If we are all working on the same purpose then little differences can be worked out. However, we are all here because we like what JJ has to say and our Souls have confirmed the truthfulness to us. And JJ does speak for the majority of us because he is in continual contact with several keysters. We need pragmatic logical doers at this time. Once the structure is up then maybe we'll have a place for "Lets not hurt anyone feelings" right now lets get the show on the road. I have traveled across 7 states distributing the first book. John Wayne Kline has started several forums. Glenys started a group. Now the rest of you. Tell us what you are doing and how can we help you. I will continue doing the interviews and I am adding the personal visits now. My son and I had decided to travel as much as possible to meet in person. The molecule will be formed and we need to be able to know and like each other. Basically, either agree with what we are doing or do something else. If you don't believe in duality then don't stay because we do. If you don't believe in evil then don't stay because we do. And don't think I am asking you to change to match us. I am saying if you match us then you are in the right place. If you don't and you don't have any hope of getting it then what do you need with us? If you're not helping you're in the way. Leave us to the work we are called to or join us in the work. I will tell you about John in a different post. Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8010 From: Dehara Subject: OT Re: DK & Energy follows Thought (1st point) Greetings All , Xavier writes: "The DK phrase is: "Energy follows thought" followed by something like : "and adapts itself to it" : takes its shape or whatever that I didn't get. Anyone has the right quote?" Paul Yu writes: "Energy follows belief." DK writes: "The First Point of Revelation: Energy follows thought and the eye directs the energy." We are not dealing here with the simple statement that thought power is an energy and that the process of thinking generates automatically an energy which produces objective forms, induces related action, and is the source therefore of all that appears or manifests. That is a platitude today, and humanity is increasingly aware of the subjective power of thought and of its consequences - objective realization. We are to concern ourselves with that which lies behind the mental perception of the ordinary man and with the revelation which comes to the initiate disciple as he stands within the ashram and perceives - as a result of the initiatory process - the nature of the divine Plan, as it can be seen working out on various planes of our planetary existence. To Check out Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul - Discipleship i ... "http://www.netnews.org/bk/discipleship2/disc2123.html"> Click here: Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul - Discipleship in ...or go to: http://www.netnews.org/bk/discipleship2/disc2123.html. Light, Love & JoyFull Visions, Dehara MoonStar Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8011 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? Greetings to All, And good morning to you Rick! My 'amusing' quote that caused so much laughter in me when I first heard, basically because I had never considered really looking at the anatomy as have perhaps the Hopis, seems to have caused distress in you. Perhaps it was my choice of words, 'insignificant' (?) actually I could have better chosen perhaps 'not normally used in the male'. "The Hopi also sights one amusing concept... why do males have tits/nipples whatever word works here, when it has no significance for the male, and if the male were first... why would he have an insignificant part, rather than none, and yet appearing in the female, strictly as a female part of the anatomy if she were developed secondary?" Guess what I saw as amusing would cause consternation in many... always a possibility, I have quite a funny bone!! Rick: "And you take their word for it? Male mammary glands can do everything females can do. If you really were perfect already and had all the answers, how is it that you did not remember that this is so. Therein lies the difference between Being perfect and becoming perfect. Show me someone that says He is perfect and I will show you a con artist." Who said anything about taking 'their word for it'? And I personally had until then and now never considered the thought put, or even yours put forward here, since I have never seen a male suckling a child. Still with technology and medicines men have become women physically. Guess I found the questioning mind of the Hopi thought above very funny. Then there's something about perfection here Rick? What are you talking about, please explain... is this in reference to something else? In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-04/8012 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? There have been a number of males within my Tasmanian group who have recovered memories from their within their physical bodies of a time long ago .. when they actually suckled an infant from their male breasts. There have been cases scientifically and medically reported where on the death of the child's mother, the father has started producing milk to feed the new born infant. My remembering of this is that it comes from a space where death in childbirth was common, and the father was sufficiently connected with his own essence and the remembering of his innocence to allow the child to awaken this reflex within himself. Christopher Wynter On April 11, 1999, Zia wrote: My 'amusing' quote that caused so much laughter in me when I first heard, basically because I had never considered really looking at the anatomy as have perhaps the Hopis, seems to have caused distress in you. Perhaps it was my choice of words, 'insignificant' (?) actually I could have better chosen perhaps 'not normally used in the male'. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8013 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Protection Greetings to All, And hello again to you Jennifer. I would just respond to the following request: Jennifer says: "Initially Zia, I too baulked a little at the notion of protection in the Song but for the reasons I have alluded to in my post, and that JJ gave in his, I became very comfortable with it early in the piece. I know I can count on you to give it some more thought. It certainly would be great to have your beautiful voice in the choir!" I sought to make it very clear that I certainly did not initially baulk at the Song at all. My nature is to take something contemplate it, and try it out. And usually I am one that if I enjoy it will do it more!! You know if my teacher says meditate once a day.. I'll probably do it two or three times a day. I mean if it's that good, won't I benefit from more??!!:) I too became very comfortable with it. And then in focus one day, saying it, I was stopped... and I listen to that inward direction to the best of my ability. I shared the experience previously on the list in detail. I sought for understanding in the sharing, and gained rejection. Okay, that happens. No big deal, so I chose to investigate it myself, and withdrew for a time from the list. I had many questions, and usually in retreat I find answers. This was no exception. The goal in raising up the Christ Consciousness, is to achieve that state as a reality here. Christ did not seek protection, he understood he was protection, and provided that understanding to others and the steps to achieve it. We are all to become as Christ. That is the goal here as I understand it, and not to have to die or disappear out of here as confirmation of that achievement. WE have so many beliefs, and then when we achieve and it does not match the belief, well then our achievement is denied! Even death is a choice, and so too is the paying of taxes!!:) And I have given much thought, the couple of months away from the list to what I was given, and gained in understanding. That I have chosen not to reject. And I have asked nothing of anyone else in that regard. And yes, I love to Sing, and get many songs given through me, very simple ones which I sing over and over. And what I have discovered about my human nature is when it finds something that seems powerful it wants to hold onto it, repeat it adnauseum, and never let go... it becomes like a security blanket. Yet I have sung the Song, and from the perspective of eternity it has been done in time. And perhaps all of life will sing the Song, and perhaps at some point in time, and that too may be its goal. And yet there are many more songs to be sung. And the songs will evolve as do we. Everything here is stepping stones to the unfolding of the God within. So that God may walk in matter profoundly the Christ that it is. Now for a Hindu, that may be profoundly the Siva it is... and for other religions...etc. Maybe God wants to hear us all say the same thing at the same time. I am not certain about that. Wonderful either way. And maybe God wants to hear each individual's version that ultimately in thought, feeling and action expresses the same thing, yet in the myriad of ways, called life. God may even have a splendid song waiting just for you to sing to him, that will bring a rapture to both of you, and your creation back to God, may just remind you of who you are! Who am I to say? But I do say, do what brings you joy, and peace and happiness. My goal is to be unlimited and free, and alive in this body, operating on the highest level of consciousness possible (which encompasses all levels below it within it). I don't even know what that is, and that is a great adventure for me to discover. That is what life is for me... discovery in a joyous adventure called life! Since I do not restrict the freedom of others, nor lay any requirements to do things my way upon them, I trust the same will be honored with me. I love this list, and all that choose to contribute. We all benefit, and grow and have much to contemplate. And the sharing of that growth is such a delight. Thank you Jennifer for your faith in me, and your love of me. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8014 From: "Aley" Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? From Christopher Wynter "There have been a number of males within my Tasmanian group who have recovered memories from their within their physical bodies of a time long ago .." Post No. 8012 repeated Editor's Note: No reply given. Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8015 From: "Aley" Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? Oh Boy I shouldn't enter this it is so trivial but it has been proven by science that men can produce breast milk and have done so in a number of recorded cases Playboy also did a study on this in the 70's (I only read the articles) and proved that males could produce breast milk. I am sure if anyone really needs to access the articles and study they could write to Playboy. No I'm too busy and only read the articles :) Aley Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8016 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Protection Greetings to All, and just very quickly Jennifer, as I spoke at length previously, I will respond to your questions: You write, "Why, because I am the Light Love and Power, and need give that to nothing to protect me. Why, I need no protection when I know who I am." "I know where you are coming from on this but to take it right down to brass tacks, I might agree with the concept that I am Light and Love and Power but I also know I have not come into the fullness of this realization yet (or I wouldn't be here!)." Yes and that realization can happen any time, and who was it that said if we gained realization we wouldn't be here??? That just might be one of those false beliefs I spoke of previously. That may be a past reflection, and now we have different choices! "If this were fully realized in me I wouldn't live the way I do. For example, one of the things I know about myself and who I am is that I am a single mother. Accordingly I protect myself and my daughter by locking my front door at night. I take out income protection insurance in case something happens to me and I am unable to support us. I do not do these things because I am afraid but because I also have some understanding of others in my world and know there are people who break into houses and physically hurt others, and I know myself sufficiently to know that I still occasionally get injured." "I'm sure you too protect you and yours, even if it is simply by eating a healthy diet or providing warm clothes for your kids to protect them from the cold in winter." "(Zia, I may well be wrong - it has occasionally been the case before! LOL - but there seems to be a pattern being repeated here - not in the CONTENTof your posts but in the MANNER of the interactions between you and JJ and his teachings, which I could easily see leading to the same conclusion of you leaving the List like you did last time. Do you want to go down that path again?)" Well I understand your concern, and I am still here and happy to be here as well. Now that I understand myself better, the contemplation retreat time is not so long, and in comes understanding. You know a great thing for all of us to remember is, we are not the same person or being today, that we were yesterday. And also repetition of pathways etc is no longer my chosen course... and understanding guides me very wisely. Some wise guy 'Balsekar' and others said, 'understanding is all'. I would add 'understanding changes all'!! Once again, thank you for your love. In love and laughter, ZIA 'Today the thing we were worried about happening tomorrow, becomes yesterday's forgotten fears!!' Or something like that... Well for some anyway:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8017 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Protection Greetings to All, Oh I have just loved all the posts that I have finally had time to read!! And Paul Yu, Yu make my heart sing, you say everything.... groovvy LOL The following is an example (and I have read many today!)of the blessing of this list, all the different perspectives and understandings that we all get to share in. How magnificent an opportunity we have to grow. Paul: "We actually live in separation most of the time but we try to undo the separation. The way you dealt with the situation, Jennifer, is as you have described above. In this scenario protection was geared to the situation of separation or the destructive thoughts and feelings and at the same time you were activating your love the best you could. Your effort was made to increase your love whereby to protect you from your separative or destructive thoughts and feelings." Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8018 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: super OT Annunaki was Re:(OT) Boys ... another Greetings to All, And to you Christopher, and not only a magnificent wisdom in the tree, but the same spirit as in you... and me!! Beautiful... In love and laughter, ZIA Christopher: "Underneath the myths and legends lies the truth of you the truth of your genetic past back to the creation of the species. If you put away what you have been taught, and learn to read your DNA as you would the growth rings in a tree Then you will remember the truth of you. There is more wisdom in a tree before it is cut down, pulped, turned into paper and covered with the written word Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-04/8019 From: Christopher Wynter Subject: Re:(OT) Boys ... another breed?? I'm not directing this at anyone on this list but all too often in the course of my work. I hear the comment, usually spoken with much vehemence .. "What would men know about looking after babies" I guess, what men know about looking after babies is only limited by what they have been allowed to remember Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8020 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Protection Greetings to All, And Christopher this too is so beautiful. One of the great things I gained from 'A Course in Miracles' is the understanding of our program that the best for of defense is attack. And that choosing this is always based upon our perception of being attacked. And the outcome, that the best form of defense is 'my own defenselessness'. So if I am in a state of defenselessness, where is the need for protection, there is nothing needing defending or protecting. Willing to look inside and see what 'thinks' it is being attacked, is the doorway to understanding and freedom:) You have said here quite concisely what Jesus put in the whole three volumes of The Course in Miracles!!! Well done! In love and laughter, ZIA Christopher says: "The simplest of all protections is to acknowledge the unconscious fear within yourself that you are projecting and which is acting as a magnet to draw "attacks" to you in order to show you the existence of this fear. Anything you create consciously is a separation and will draw its opposite to your unconscious which you will most probably experience in altered states of consciousness and in your nightmares Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8021 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Deliverance from Evil Greetings to All, And to you, beloved JJ. I have no disagreement with you, and I thank you for the opportunity of seeing myself through your eyes. I did not know this was your view of me. JJ: "Zia, you may not think that you have presented the idea that you are judging us as being fear based for using the word "protection," but to me, and I believe the majority on this list, it certainly appears that way. Here's the way you come across:" "I am in this high and holy place where I dwell in only blissful love and I am beyond the need for fear based concepts such as protection. Those who cannot see as I see are obviously spiritually retarded and cannot feel the love as I do." "You have not literally said this but that is the feeling that many receive from your comments and you seem oblivious to this. You are always talking about yourself and how you feel and how glorious your lovefest with God is, yet I have rarely felt much more from you than a trickle down condescending sympathy for not attaining the high and holy place that you possess." And I do not know if any of the above is true, for I have not had your experience, and do not know who or what you are actually referring to here. I can only say what is true for me, and acknowledge what is true for you. All I know is I have finally been set free, from what anybody thinks of me!! And what I have discovered funnily enough, is that what someone thinks of me is really none of my business!!! LOL Thank you JJ for you have reinforced my simple belief that every upset is a setup, and I trust that this post will be seen for creating one of the most delightful and enlightening sharings on the list to date!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-44/8022 From: "* Zia" Subject: To JJ with Love Greetings to All, It is getting close to Christmas time, the time of celebrating the Christ in Mass (matter). And I wish to give you my most cherished gift JJ, which I pull out of my huge sack of splendid gifts. These gifts are the symbols in this world, that in the end say all the same thing. Yet there is one I prize more than all the others. And that gift I wish to give to you. It is, the symbol of a mirror. I discovered that God is a mirror. And the mirror never lies. Perhaps in your contemplations this Christmas you will discover the amazing gifts held in secret in the mirror. It is my humble gift to you. In thanks for all I have so far gained on this list and with you and all that choose to be here. And in giving this gift to you, I also know this gift is given to all on the list as well. The looking glass, the mirror, the true 'image' of God. I do love you JJ!! In love and laughter and Merry Christmas... ZIA And JJ, if you and your lovely wife are ever in 'my neck of the woods' I hope you will come and visit and share our humble home. Love to you and yours, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8023 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Babaji Greetings to All, Thanks Caramel for the link to Mother Theresa... I was greeted with the following on finding that site.. "It is not how much we do, but how much love we put in the doing. It is not how much we give, but how much love we put in the giving." In love and laughter, ZIA Caramel: "Yes, maybe we were students in a past life. Who knows! About websites: Even Mother Teresa has info on the Net. check out: www.drini.com/motherteresa/own words for great words of inspiration from her.' Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8024 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: (OT) Swamiji Kaliswar Greetings to All, Hello Qadwi, pleased to meet you... here is the website again: http://www.swamikaleshwar.com/message.html There are courses, and I would recommend that you contact the telephone number for the person in California, and I am certain she could answer all your questions. It is all there on the website... and go to courses or up coming events. Swamiji Kaliswar does speak English, and many around him do also... good luck in your endeavors! In love and laughter, ZIA "peace .......... is there anyway to contact swamjii kaliswar and are any of his discourses available in English.............qadwi" Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8025 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Protection Zia wrote: "And hello again to you Jennifer. I would just respond to the following request: My goal is to be unlimited and free, and alive in this body, operating on the highest level of consciousness possible (which encompasses all levels below it within it). I don't even know what that is, and that is a great adventure for me to discover. That is what life is for me... discovery in a joyous adventure called life!" This great adventure of yours, Zia, is not to be taken away from you. It is a gift from the spirit that is freedom itself. Liberation after liberation you are to reach the freedom that you are: This elation of no restriction is what you are after, the most precious state of being you would want to allow yourself to be in. The path is unique and alone. Yet it encompasses all the enduring qualities of every path there is. It is THE path, the path you are on, Zia. I could not refrain myself from saying from the bottom of my being: Congratulations to you, Zia, the God-blessed! Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8026 From: Jean Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-11-03 of The Keys of Knowledge List Hello keysters! I read some interesting posts that you all sent, one that seemed to stick out the most was something you said Marylin, that is so very true. You mentioned how you at a younger age used to at one point take things very seriously and how now you learned to laugh a little. I can most certainly understand that. I can remember at one time when I too was like that, and I will admit at times can still be, but one thing I have found is that the more relaxed I am, the more, hell I don't want to say simple but in a way that is what it is like, I guess the more free spirited? meaning laughing and looking at the lighter side of life, the more open I am to things. Sometimes we all can take ourselves too seriously and IMO that can be a bad thing AT times....I wish I could underline that, I have a feeling I may have to explain that one...tsk tsk..:) ANyways the other thing I wanted to add was, Caramel you mentioned Mother Theresa in you post, I will enjoy looking up that website, she was a remarkable women. Very giving a true hero of our day in my opinion. Well good night keysters, hope you all have a wonderful day tomorrow. In light and laughter and love Jean Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8027 From: "Caramel" Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-11-03 of The Keys of Knowledge List Jean: Here's the website (one of the... there are more!!!), but here's the one I had previously mentioned and wanted to see. www.drini.com/motherteresa/own_words/ Enjoy! Blessings, Caramel Post No. keys-l: /1999-11-03/8028 From: Susi Subject: Re: Chapter 34 Darlene wrote: "J.J., I want to know how you advise parenting a child, especially a teenager, when they do not want to do things which teach responsibility and cooperation, like cleaning up after themselves instead of leaving dirty clothes and dishes all over the home." Darlene, I'm not JJ, but I am a mother of three home schooled boys. I hope this will spark some of your own ideas on how to handle your frustration ;-) 1)Do not pick up the dirty clothes or take the dirty dishes out of his room. When you find the mess unbearable just close his door. Insist that his clothes at the least make it into the laundry room or stay in his room because the rest of the house is community ground and after taking a vote the majority wish to not trip over dirty clothes laying about. If he chooses to live in a mess that is his room ......so be it! This will last fo