1999 - WEEK 43 Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7798 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: On censorship. Travis writes? "(tm)to be discussing. This is simple logic, and basic debate rules. If asking people to follow that is obtrusive then perhaps this is simply not the right place for someone like me. I am, as I previously stated, a student of science. I require at least some logic in discussions I have with(tm)" Logic is sometimes an illusion, and rules are meant to be broken occasionally. I hope you stay and watch the unfolding of miracles. You came to this list for a specific reason, perhaps more patience, than logic, is here for you. We can search far and wide for what is staring us in the face. I feel you know this. Have more faith in what you know is real. If you rush towards the future, you may miss what is here now. Choosing Love, BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7799 From: Xavier Subject: Re: On censorship. Zia writes: "For a long time, I did not understand Paul's perspective, and even less Christopher Wynter's. Yet Paul was a long time on the list before anyone paid him any attention as I recall. So I thought I would take in and strive to understand what this person was putting forward. Wow, I was stunned at the magic. Isn't that how we read the Immortal? Now admittedly that was in story form, so we were also entertained... yet some of the points we took in and contemplated, and in that resonance, we were uplifted and understood." But we chose to read the immortal. At each paragraph, we chose to go onward. If I fell on Paul's stuff somewhere, i would not read more than a paragraph. Though I like his answers to questions. So soul contact, receptivity, and the like... is for when you have a motive. A desire. You don't read esoteric stuff without desire, and a simple basic childish one, I mean that fake egoic desire doesn't work with eso books. With Paul, he is alive and present, so it helps much. "So I personally found my deepest profoundest insights from the most difficult guys to understand on this list!" Yeah, I know that, receptive mind. That's how we all tuned into intuitive thought, I guess. Yet if you use this all the time, you fail to use the other polarity. Measure in all things. I need to feel and act that I don't desire to read something, and to accordingly not read it;-)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7800 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Jesus's return Geoffrey writes: "Anyway this is what I believe at the moment and I am sure others do too, but unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I shall have to leave the list.............Who said "goodbye"?" Unconditional love is here, now. Stay or go, it remains. It is your choice. I will sing the song, and hope your heart leads you on the path of love. I hope you will sing the song and feel the peace in your own heart. Choosing love, BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7801 From: Marylin Subject: Travis writes: "The Keys of Knowledge." "A key is an instrument for unlocking doors, secrets, etc. "Knowledge is that which in behind the doors or in the secrets. "How far does the word KNOWLEDGE stretch? What is considered to be knowledge? "Knowledge is a good word to have a heated debate about. Have at it." Now this really is off topic, do you see? It's how we often find ourselves "led astray" from the real issue. Debating is alright for those who like to talk and hear the sound of their own voices, (presidential candidates for instance LOL), but for myself, I prefer to listen to the inner voice that would guide me and help me to help others to our Ultimate Goal. Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7802 From: "Jennifer Hampson Subject: MY VOTE A lot has been said about Paul! I have to say that I have never found you discourteous or attacking of others in your posts, Paul. On the contrary you have always related your views with polite detachment. Of all the reactions to Paul's posts, Rob, your approach to the situation sits best with me. Thanks - it's always good to hear from you. Geoffrey I found myself a bit distressed by your post, because I think I was picking up your own strong feelings. (I say this only because I myself did not have a big reaction to the same particular aspect of the teachings when I read them.) Is it possible that in your anger toward Catholic Church for the dogma it fed you, you may about to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"? You say, "Many years ago when I was a church going Catholic, I believed that Jesus would return to save us." Could it be that in order to avoid again feeling the disappointment you felt when you realized the Church was not the 'authority' you had put your faith in, that you swung over to the other extreme and refused to let yourself trust in anything that the Church espoused at all? I agree <>. But I certainly think it would accelerate progress to be in His presence! He (the Christed man) showed us the way back to the Father when he came last time.* What gifts might he bring this time! Surely having Jesus (Joshua) physically in our midst could again generate development of such magnitude that it will have a lasting effect for another 2000 years. After all, Christ always existed in Spirit before Jesus came to Earth, but His being here in the flesh made a huge difference, wouldn't you say, to the awareness of Spirit in those people living at the time and since then. People worshipped a very different aspect of God before Jesus' arrival and did so in a very different kind of way, through fear rather than love. Also, it may be sad, but it's true that being physical bods we tend to get caught up in the material world and lose sight of the Light from time to time and there's nothing like a tangible, living example that we can directly experience with our senses to demonstrate to us the existence of the Spirit, to graphically remind us of who we really are. Although I can't argue with this, << "As I Am, You will be." We are becoming Jesuses in our own right .>>, I can argue with this .....<< His physical coming would create more problems with the Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Chinese, etc. >> I would tend to think the opposite would be more likely to occur. Anyway, even if what you say is true, if Jesus (who sees a bigger picture than we do) thought the effect of His return would be counterproductive, from the viewpoint of Soul and Spirit, then do you think he would reappear? Enough of trying to convince you with logic, Geoffrey. Why don't you just stick around for no other reason than because I'd like you to. (LOL) Jen * That is why I feel sorry for Jewish people because without recognition of Jesus Christ they have no bridge to get back to God. The Old Testament gives us no direct link with God. Even Moses was only able to POINT TO the Way back by giving us a code, in the form of the Commandments, to live by. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7803 From: Marylin Subject: Re: (OT) Tesla Site Zia writes: "Have you made a Tesla Coil Travis?" Hi all I took a look at that site also and the animated ('scuse me for not knowing much about electrical things) tower with flashes at the top reminded me of the pyramid in action. Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7804 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-10-23 of The Keys of Knowledge List -Re JJ's and other's post on sending love: It is obvious to me that you don't interfere with anybody if they don't ask to be helped. Only when asked can one help, and only regarding the question asked. Why is there such an urge to help by sending love? Who has the need? How often have you been "helped" by somebody? and how did it feel? Nobody needs to be helped if they don't ask. Asking for help is their responsibility. To me it seems that if you want to send love it is not pure love, because of the desire to send it. Only if love comes by its own account as a reaction of the heart to situation is it pure. Regards, Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7805 From: "Terrance R. Brennan" Subject: OT--Email problems John, Why can't you see the author of any posts? I've used 3 different e-mail programs--AOL, Juno, and now Yahoo--and I've been able to see the author of every one. I use the "subscribe" option rather than "digest" because scrolling through and replying to a digest was a huge pain in the arse. I think it's unusual not to be able to see the authors names. If I had to play russian roulette everytime I opened my e-mailbox I'd probably want to quit, too. Also, what about using email filters? Just askin', Rob John Wayne Kline wrote: "Now back to this list. Spirit Web has made things very difficult lately. When I could go to the archives, I could see the author of a post, and choose to automatically delete it. That is not possible now, and I find myself at least reading the first line of every post." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7806 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: FOCUS Hello Keysters, A lot has been said by all about loving and understanding and getting along with each other for the purpose of making a molecule. I first agreed with Shyama, I never read anything with Paul's name on it. Not his stuff or anything any one except JJ has to say to him. Then I agreed with John that my frustrations don't have to disturb my peace and flow. And maybe if I share my take on the whole thing you might agree with me too. I don't have to like someone to be united in purpose but to be united in purpose I need to believe that we are working for the same purpose. Just to pick a name lets use Rick. He is probably my opposite in that he likes details and working behind the scenes. Now he and I may not agree on 'how' to do something but we will both trust that we are working toward the same purpose. If he and I are arguing about something then we can stop, listen to the other, search for soul contact, and continue in harmony because our basic beliefs let us know we are truly working for the same ultimate goal and even though he wants one thing and I want another we both are striving for the same thing. The disagreement with Paul is that not many believe he is on the same path. If we mistrust his purpose we will not trust him. If we believed he was one in purpose then we might work harder to understand. If I ever have a disagreement with Rick or anyone else on the list and I believed we were working toward the common goal, I would stay and fight and argue and listen and learn about myself and the other until I found a solution and the disagreement would be over. If I had (and I do have) an opposing view with someone I did not think was on the same purpose I would (and do) find that person annoying. Now in the molecular relationship I have to be able to stick with it until all misunderstanding are solved. And I will. The partner that makes my atom will probably be my greatest challenge but for the purpose of our partnership all disagreements will be handled accordingly until they are resolved. When our atom is joined by two other atoms I again will have to adjust me to be able to learn to communicate to 4 other very different people. Now if I can't believe that we are all on the same path then I will not be able to hold our little leg together. We will not make it. We will not be stable and all will know it. On the other hand, if I believe we are all on the same path working and growing for the same purpose then my love for the others will grow. And I will continually strive for acceptance. Now, having said all of that, what does it matter to you what Paul or anyone else is up to? What does it matter if he or anyone else is on the same path? Is your future affected by his choices? It is if you let it. Those of us who are uniting need to stay focused on each other and make our bond strong. Let's not let someone who we perceive as not being on the same purpose shake us off our path. FOCUS GRASSHOPPER! We need your strength to move forward. We are uniting. In agreement we bond for a purpose. Keeping that in mind I find myself loving you more than I thought I was capable. And being loved by so many great and glorious people across the world. We are uniting, our bond is strong, let those who are a part step forward and accept our purpose knowing we will disagree on ways but not principles. And knowing that we can work through all things together. The best way to get away from a server of the dark is to ignore them. In my life when I find a server of the dark I simple keep my mouth shut and eventually they forget about me. Ok, long post, sorry. Basically, we are making the first molecule of our time. Focus on that. Focus on finding a partner then 2 other atoms in your physical locale. Learn to communicate without shutting down or tearing down until an agreement can be reached. Stablize yourself for us. I love you all. Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7807 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: On censorship. Bev Salzman wrote: "Logic is sometimes an illusion, and rules are meant to be broken occasionally. I hope you stay and watch the unfolding of miracles. You came to this list for a specific reason, perhaps more patience, than logic, is here for you. We can search far and wide for what is staring us in the face. I feel you know this. Have more faith in what you know is real. If you rush towards the future, you may miss what is here now." Thanks for the interesting thoughts. Keep in mind I am attempting to convey a somewhat abstract thought. So don't take my comments too literally on any specific thing, rather, look for the whole picture. Don't miss the forest for the trees, you know? ;) Perhaps I am here for a reason. Myself, I feel I am here because I am curious and this group has provided more "food for thought" then most. However, I am not interested in 90% of the useless "new age" stuff I find online much of which I see surfacing in here from time to time. I seem to be able to discover when something is wrong. I'm not so good at finding out if something is right. When I feel something is wrong, I'm right. I've just learned to trust it because it's never failed me. Most of the OT stuff on here feels "wrong" to me. Perhaps it's not totally wrong, but enough to trip the sensors, as it were. Most times when I am looking for the truth I end up with the process of elimination. I remember a quote I think fits what I do.. "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." What I know to be real is what I can prove with logic. The results are not always 100% accurate, but I accept that and examine all the new data I am presented with. Garbage in, Garbage out. Logic is not illusion, but the inputs to the equation can be. It is not the fault of the process, rather, it is the fault of the person using the process. I am not perfect (shhhh... don't tell anyone!) and so my input data is not always correct. The difference between what I do and what religion teaches is that I acknowledge that I may not have all the answers. As such I am willing to examine new ideas from an objective perspective. At least in modern times I don't get burned at the stake for it. ;) Even if I unsubscribe from the list, I'll still be watching. I have someone on here who I'm sure I can talk into acting as a proxy for me so I can still see the interesting stuff. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7808 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: On censorship. Marylin wrote: "Travis wrote: "The Keys of Knowledge." "A key is an instrument for unlocking doors, secrets, etc." "Knowledge is that which in behind the doors or in the secrets." "How far does the word KNOWLEDGE stretch? What is considered to be knowledge?" In the context I used the term it is a title, not a thought. Thus picking it apart is quite strange. However, it is interesting. "Knowledge is a good word to have a heated debate about. Have at it." I think it's pretty well defined. ;) "Now this really is off topic, do you see? It's how we often find ourselves "led astray" from the real issue." Short off-topic threads are fine with me. As long as they are of some benefit to all. It's the prolonged stuff I take issue with. Lately it's Paul Yu doing it. Before it was Christopher Winter. These are, of course, the worst offenders IMO. Everyone does it at times, and that's OK. It's the over and over stuff that bugs me. "Debating is alright for those who like to talk and hear the sound of their own voices, (presidential candidates for instance LOL), but for myself, I prefer to listen to the inner voice that would guide me and help me to help others to our Ultimate Goal." *laugh*. Like I said in another post I just sent. Don't miss the forest for the trees. I'm not exactly sure how to phrase what I'm thinking, so I use multiple things to try to convey the thought. Travis List Archive keys-l: /1999-10-25/7809 From: Brian Weis Subject: OT - more tesla Here is another site for more tesla stuff http://www.concentric.net/~Jwwagner/index.shtml Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7810 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-10-24 of The Keys of Knowledge List Re: Pam and Channeling in general Channeling is not relying on the self and placing another's knowledge above your own. It is easy to be deceived in this manner. If you (in general) channel you have no control, you give permission for others to use your channel. It is like opening the door. Who is going to come in? Not my kind of game. If you practice asking your Self or soul the answer and going inside for the answer you will develop the art of listening to the answer, which can come in feelings, pictures or words or a combination. You will be amazed that your soul, being in contact with God, can come up with answers that your person has no way of knowing and are outside of your conscious self. It takes trust though. Trust in the silent soul, who will not answer without being asked. By trusting your own answer your relationship with your soul and through your soul with God will grow, whereas if you start to listen to the channeled voice..... you get the picture. Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7811 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-10-23 of The Keys of Knowledge List Ben Meijer writes: "Why is there such an urge to help by sending love? Who has the need? How often have you been "helped" by somebody? and how did it feel? Nobody needs to be helped if they don't ask. Asking for help is their responsibility." Ben, Sending love is likened to sending electricity. The giver of love benefits in ways that cannot be described. The receivers are ready with the switch in the on position, and in that way, they do ask. If your switch is not on, the current is still there, you just won't notice. I am always ready to receive love, and so many times, when it comes, and where it comes from, feels magnificent. When you are in the on position all of the time, you find the current is more constant than you ever imagined. Many cry out for love every day, not in words necessarily. Choosing Love, BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7812 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: On censorship. Travis writes: "Garbage in, Garbage out. Logic is not illusion, but the inputs to the equation can be. It is not the fault of the process, rather, it is the fault of the person using the process. I am not perfect (shhhh... don't tell anyone!) and so my input data is not always correct. The difference between what I do and what religion teaches" Travis, I know you are not speaking literally, nor am I. I do wonder where you find the logic in love, spirituality, or astral travel. Something tells me you prefer logic, and you also sense on a deeper level or you would not be here now. You will not always find logic or proof in the scientific way. You will have proof in ways that defy explanation many times. The key here is balance in all things. You may find logic in this computer. You may not find it in the user. You may not believe in faith. Faith does believe in you. It is your scientific nature to search. It is your soul that knows the answers. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7813 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: On censorship. Travis writes: "Short off-topic threads are fine with me. As long as they are of some benefit to all. It's the prolonged stuff I take issue with. Lately it's Paul Yu doing it. Before it was Christopher Winter. These are, of course, the worst offenders " One of the benefits, is the conversations you have been having. You may not realize this as such. It is so. Webs spin from every situation and in many directions. This is how we get to know each other better. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7814 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Getting to know you... (was "Re: On censorship.") Bev Salzman writes: "One of the benefits, is the conversations you have been having. You may not realize this as such. It is so. Webs spin from every situation and in many directions. This is how we get to know each other better." Unless, of course, we choose not to. Just wanted to point that out. : ) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7815 From: "Tracey Hobson" Subject: RE: THE PROBLEM WITH THIS LIST Won't JJ be surprised when he returns at how busy we've all been here! OK, now my turn... I was delighted to read John Wayne Kline's post. I am weary of all the blah blah blah and agree that Paul did miss his calling as a politician! And I am just telling the truth as I feel it - this list just does not have the same flavor as when I was on it before (like the first 6 months it was in existence). It's not just Paul's posts either. There are way too many "one liners" that would be MUCH better sent directly to the individual rather than to the list (the ones that say "Thanks" or "Sending you light love hearts and flowers" or "Bravo" or whatever - they clog the list and we agreed a long time ago NOT to do this ON LIST). I feel strongly about this 'cuz I was away from a computer all weekend and came in to about 75 e-mails this morning! That's a lot of e-mails, folks. I may unsubscribe and have, in fact, tossed the idea around in my head (and heart) a bit. But I'm not one to be chased off easily. Glenys' reply post to this topic was the one that most closely resonated with where I stand. I don't mind SOME disagreement but Paul, you have taken it WAY too far. Like others have said, you have your own list; kindly use it and not this one if you feel the need for constant argument. The Immortal left me with such a good feeling, a good vibe. Even though I am a spiritual kindergartener, and don't always understand what JJ is saying, I am reluctant to discontinue being on this list, but will do so if next month goes as it has these last couple of months. Thanks for speaking up, John Wayne Kline! Love to all, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7816 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: Getting to know you... (was "Re: On censorship.") Brian Weis writes: "One of the benefits, is the conversations you have been having. You may not realize this as such. It is so. Webs spin from every situation and in many directions. This is how we get to know each other better. Unless, of course, we choose not to. Just wanted to point that out." Of course, we are, our choices, aren't we? Isn't it amazing, how often we turn our back on something, just as we are ready for a needed break through? At least, I know I have. (): Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7817 From: Marylin Subject: Re: On censorship. Travis writes: "*laugh*. Like I said in another post I just sent. Don't miss the forest for the trees. I'm not exactly sure how to phrase what I'm thinking, so I use multiple things to try to convey the thought." It takes at least two to have an argument/debate/whatever. It only takes one to pull a halt to the negative feelings. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7818 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: OT - Sharri's picture in the Photo Album Dear All, Sharri has shared a photo of herself with us and you can find it at: http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/KeystersPhotoAlbum.htmlSharri Peace unto all of you, Samu :) chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7819 From: Xavier Subject: Re: The problem with this list--another view Terrance R. Brennan writes: "If we truly are serious students of JJ's philosophy-- if we want the power and abilities the molecular relationship has to offer--then one day we'll find ourselves in a situation where we're bound by covenant to "...be one with" Paul Yu "by ever seeking the One Spirit of God with" Paul Yu "and resolve to solve all differences which may cause separation by seeking an answer and confirmation through the Spirit with" Paul Yu. And that's scary as hell to me. You too?" lool. Funny how you put things. No, it's not that scary to me. And I guess that saying things out loud helps. It's when we refrain feelings that relationship becomes unbearable (this is also said by JJ;-). "We seekers of truth have heard a lot of BS out there and have found JJ's teachings to be a breath of fresh air." hmm yes, this is a good point. Anywhere that I would find a Paul Yu text, I would get away after a few lines. YEt, a mailing list is a little like a forum. YOu hear people that you don't choose to hear. The point is that Paul always takes the counter point in what JJ says. He even takes it with what is told to him, but someway, when I read his answers to challenges, I feel satisfied. Yet it is me, others don't. "A luke-warm student who had to take a self-imposed "time-out", Rob" Better speak out than time out;-)))))))) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7820 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Jesus's return Hi;-) GEOFFREY ELLIS writes: "All the spiritually mature people I know will agree that Jesus does not need to return to Earth in a physical form as this would defeat the object of the game of life." Ah? I don't know such mature people. And my written references, on the contrary, talk about the second return (Bailey mainly). "(Bit like doing a crossword puzzle and someone giving all the answers before one has finished it.)" In some way, yes. But it can happen, and still avoid those bad effects. Indeed, it is the special purpose and the hard to accomplish conditions that make it delay? "We have all progressed to the stage that we are at, without His return, and all people can do this, in time." Do what? "As I Am, You will be." We are becoming Jesuses in our own right ." Oh, and you think Jesus didn't need to meet masters to evolve? BTW, every 2000 years (era), there is an avatar that begins the new era. "His physical coming would create more problems with the Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Chinese,etc. Leading the molecule from a spiritual form would be quite sufficient to serve the purpose." OH oh, so he shouldn't have come 2000 years ago, the problems were bigger again. Yet, he didn't introduce himself as the picture of God that people were waiting for, I mean, institutions;-) "Anyway this is what I believe at the moment and I am sure others do too, but unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I shall have to leave the list.............Who said "goodbye"?" Weird. My question is: what really bothers you in this topic? Can you picture what would be the most frightening or disgusting, for you, if that happened? IS it a Jesus being what? Stoned? I don't wish for psy thing, but anyway, this is my reaction. Where does it come from? You see, this is not logical. The coming of Christ : to refuse it completely. Simply because it can happen in numerous ways, and you always can imagine a way that satisfies your ideals. So complete refusal is no game. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7821 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: On censorship. Greetings to All, And hello to my second favorite Frenchman... Xavier. X; "But we chose to read the immortal. At each paragraph, we chose to go onward. If I fell on Paul's stuff somewhere, i would not read more than a paragraph. Though I like his answers to questions." Well of course we must choose to read what presents to us. Yet I did not go looking for the Immortal... already had a great understanding of the concept of Immortality and naturally this would draw like to like often as confirmation. When something comes into my awareness, as apposed to everything that does not, I usually take a quick look, and make a choice on reading or not. "So soul contact, receptivity, and the like... is for when you have a motive. A desire. You don't read esoteric stuff without desire, and a simple basic childish one, I mean that fake egoic desire doesn't work with eso books. With Paul, he is alive and present, so it helps much. So I personally found my deepest profoundest insights from the most difficult guys to understand on this list!" "Yeah, I know that, receptive mind. That's how we all tuned into intuitive thought, I guess. YEt if you use this all the time, you fail to use the other polarity. Measure in all things. I need to feel and act that I don't desire to read something, and to accordingly not read it;-))" Xavier, I would easily read things in line with my desire, understanding, and enjoy the 'emotional' confirmation perhaps. That will always be there. Yet I was emphasizing that I had truly gained from those I found initially difficult to understand. That is not usual for most. Most discard when it does not provide emotional confirmation. I find now for myself... an increasing interest in the 'unknown' rather than continually validating what I already know to be true for me. It stretches me. It does not mean that what I read, as the unknown, always is true in the end... it means I accept the challenge to understand. As always I enjoy chatting with you Xavier, and your comments and perspective. Much love to you. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7822 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: On censorship. Bev Salzman wrote: "Travis, I know you are not speaking literally, nor am I. I do wonder where you find the logic in love, spirituality, or astral travel. Something tells me you prefer logic, and you also sense on a deeper level or you would not be here now. You will not always find logic or proof in the scientific way. You will have proof in ways that defy explanation many times. The key here is balance in all things. You may find logic in this computer. You may not find it in the user. You may not believe in faith. Faith does believe in you. It is your scientific nature to search. It is your soul that knows the answers." *smile* Love is an emotion, thus there is no logic. ;) One can be spiritual without having faith in things. I consider spirituality to be more of a state of mind then a belief system. The scientific way is a bit limited. But it serves me well. There is also what is known as "empirical evidence". That basically means I can show it, but I don't have an equation or any real proof for everyone else to see. I place spiritual matters in that area along with most super-natural things. There is much that is not understood, but if I can find evidence that fits for me then I will accept it. I do not rely solely on the physical for evidence as science does. I'm in between a scientist and a spiritual person who uses faith. It's complicated, but I'm not a wannabe Vulcan or anything. :) There is more to this then I can convey. I just don't have the words. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7823 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: On censorship. Bev Salzman wrote: "One of the benefits, is the conversations you have been having. You may not realize this as such. It is so. Webs spin from every situation and in many directions. This is how we get to know each other better." Perhaps, but I think we can handle that off-list with introductions done by each member or via Lorraine's biography project. I got involved with this thread only because of the other discussions going on about it. I typically lurk. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7824 From: Paul Yu Subject: OT Implications of soul contact Hi everyone, Soul contact is the center in the path of the aspirant or disciple. It provides them with love as well as light. The service as well as personal progress of the aspirant or disciple is to be measured by the duration, the depth and the mobility of their soul contact. Soul contact thus implies that nothing of the personality as such is to be seen and evaluated in terms of the achievement of the personality. The light of the rational mind in general and logical reasoning in particular is to be submitted to, and integrated with, the light of the soul or to be relegated to its own limited realm of separation and illusion. True scientific truths are never in contradiction to the truths as realized by the soul. Yet no scientific truths as such would be of permanent value unless integrated with the spiritual truths of the soul. The work of integration cannot be done but by the soul. All that the mind can do is to prepare the raw material for the soul to elevate, transform and incorporate into the system of spiritual truths. Soul contact also implies that the aspirant or disciple neutralize and balance their astral or emotional forces. Unless the foggy forces of glamour were being dispelled no focused and sustained contact with the soul could easily be maintained. "Soul contact" would then become an empty word. The less attached we became to our personal feelings and beliefs the freer we would be in contacting the soul. Group work and activity would encounter paralyzing hardships if members haven't cleared a way in their emotional body. How would then the empty group structure benefit the members as members? Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7825 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: On censorship. Travis writes: "There is more to this then I can convey. I just don't have the words." I don't always have the words either, that is why I'm usually silent. That is not to say, that I don't understand, just that words are inadequate. You, my friend, are not in that boat alone. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7826 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: OT Implications of soul contact Paul Yu writes: "Soul contact also implies that the aspirant or disciple neutralize and balance their astral or emotional forces. Unless the foggy forces of glamour were being dispelled no focused and sustained contact with the soul could easily be maintained. "Soul contact" would then become an empty word. The less attached we became to our personal feelings and beliefs the freer we would be in contacting the soul. Group work and activity would encounter paralyzing hardships if members haven't cleared a way in their emotional body. How would then the empty group structure benefit the members as members?" Paul, you are not stating the principles differently, just with a rhythm that is your own. I understand exactly what you mean. This is the difference between some members, when you truly understand another, you know if there is a common denominator or not. Once found, the threads interweave in beautiful patterns. A true desire to live harmoniously, takes patience and perseverance. I am learning these more and more. BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7827 From: "Yvonne Pisz" Subject: (OT) Interesting Site Hi Folks, The link below has had an exemplary effect on my understanding of the nature of duality as it exists within many scriptural writings, so I thought I would share it with those who haven't completely burned out on the subject. Far far far from desiring to exasperate an already enflamed subject, I think that the author, Dwayne Sheffield, has shed some light, from a very logical viewpoint, that I believe may help bring some closure to the subject. I hope that this is received by all as it is sent, with the intent to bless, and not to harm in any way. I truly believe that those who take the time to read this info will walk away with a gift of immeasurable value. And who knows, we may all receive the gift of once and for all putting this subject to rest. :) http://infoseek.go.com/?win=_search&sv=M6&qt=embracing+the+contradiction&oq= &url=http%3A//gatekeeper.iadfw.net/dsh440/&ti=EMBRACING+THE+CONTRADICTION&top= With Only Blessing In Mind, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7828 From: "Yvonne Pisz" Subject: (OT) Better Link Hi Again, Sorry about that last URL. This one should work better. Enjoy! John http://gatekeeper.iadfw.net/dsh440/ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7829 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Xavier, OT and long Hi Xavier, I'm new to this list, and I haven't had time to read all the archives but...you seem to have a thing with pain, thinking if it is good give me some more. Let me say this: pain that you cannot deal with scars. Don't load another heapful just because it is "good for you" Get real. I see it this way: 1. Build up your person till you can deal with life very well. Help yourself, completely. 2. Turn to Service. Help others, completely. Once you turn to service, let others go in stead of you, not to punish yourself, but to give others a chance. It can be hard to not turn attention to yourself. If you are still wanting it can be painful, but if you have satisfied your desires it should be easy to sacrifice so you can be of service to others. Turning to service and foregoing things that is the pain. Letting things go before they are resolved. Meditation and choosing the greatest good for oneself can be more than a little difficult for a lot of people. Learning to deal with/accepting love is more difficult for most than dealing with pain. regards, Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7830 From: "Terrance R. Brennan" Subject: Re: The problem with this list--another view Yes, and I find his posts frustrating as hell. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion if someone always takes the counter point. Example: Q: "Are you saying you believe in God?" A: "No. There is no God." Q: "You're an atheist then?" A: "No. I believe in a higher power." Even so, it's still JJ's right to continue the dialogue with him for as long as he sees fit. Only JJ knows his own level of commitment to bringing about the union of souls. Which makes me wonder, if a person is just totally close-minded to new ideas, is a disciple free to stop attempting to be one with him? I guess that depends on the level of commitment. Rob Xavier wrote: "The point is that Paul always takes the counter point in what JJ says. He even takes it with what is told to him, but someway, when I read his answers to challenges, I feel satisfied. Yet it is me, others don't." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7831 From: Xavier Subject: Re: On censorship. Hi Zia. My spiritual awakening has had several major tools, one of which is a talk radio. And it is by going beyond the annoyance i had at plain people that i opened my upper mind. So i see very well what you mean. YEs, it's good to mention this, but don't you think that most keysters already had a similar awakening to duality? That's why i can appreciate paul, though i don?t his initiating posts, only his answers, by their humanity. "Xavier, I would easily read things in line with my desire, understanding, and enjoy the 'emotional' confirmation perhaps. That will always be there. Yet I was emphasizing that I had truly gained from those I found initially difficult to understand. That is not usual for most. Most discard when it does not provide emotional confirmation." The purpose, Jennifer, the purpose. You have a purpose to listen to these people. I had a purpose to listen to the radio, I just loved the feeling that came from the animators and the philosophy they displayed. And I love Liberty. What is the purpose of this list? The immortal, JJ's teachings. And Paul is always talking against what JJ says. Never does he begin post without disagreeing and making his point. For a guy that talks above duality, he's got a thick layer of it!! The light, light bearing, this is the key. Does your post bear light, and intends to? And how do you do it, with what means? Paul's means, for what i see, are to talk against an idea, then someone talks against his, and then, finally, he brings light. By reaching oneness. But his first post is really wearying. AND it only works when you do the second one. Others dont get it, at least me. "I find now for myself... an increasing interest in the 'unknown' rather than continually validating what I already know to be true for me. Yes, I have such desires at times. I think it comes from an excess in the contrary polarity, which excess one can learn to avoid, so this "searching for far" is not a very key thing. "It stretches me. It does not mean that what I read, as the unknown, always is true in the end... it means I accept the challenge to understand." I don?t'. Only if I feel a motive for it. What's the motive with Paul? Annoyance? Some times, i feel like reading. Most times, not. "As always I enjoy chatting with you Xavier, and your comments and perspective. Much love to you. In love and laughter, ZIA" Sorry to be so closed on that one;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7832 From: Xavier Subject: Re: On censorship. Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 7831 Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7833 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Xavier, OT and long Hi Ben, this is very profound, and tuned to me, so i need time to ponder, and to ask questions on words i don't know. "foregoing"? Ben Meijer writes: "1. Build up your person till you can deal with life very well. Help yourself, completely. 2. Turn to Service. Help others, completely." I agree with this, completely.;-) "Once you turn to service, let others go in stead of you, not to punish yourself, but to give others a chance. It can be hard to not turn attention to yourself. If you are still wanting it can be painful, but if you have satisfied your desires it should be easy to sacrifice so you can be of service to others." I have been doing this so much (the error), that i feel like you're giving me important keys. I'll have to ponder this when i'm not sleepy. "Turning to service and foregoing things that is the pain. Letting things go before they are resolved. Meditation and choosing the greatest good for oneself can be more than a little difficult for a lot of people. Learning to deal with/accepting love is more difficult for most than dealing with pain." C ya later;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7834 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Xavier, OT and long Sorry, thought i was sending this to Ben (because i thought he had sent it privately) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7835 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: On censorship. "Perhaps I am here for a reason. Myself, I feel I am here because I am curious and this group has provided more "food for thought" then most. However, I am not interested in 90% of the useless "new age" stuff I find online much of which I see surfacing in here from time to time. I seem to be able to discover when something is wrong. I'm not so good at finding out if something is right. When I feel something is wrong, I'm right. I've just learned to trust it because it's never failed me. Most of the OT stuff on here feels "wrong" to me. Perhaps it's not totally wrong, but enough to trip the sensors, as it were. Most times when I am looking for the truth I end up with the process of elimination. I remember a quote I think fits what I do.. "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." I'm sure there are discussions in the Tesla list that could be considered 'off-topic' in some form, or any other list for that matter. To be 100% honest, I sometimes delete messages out of this list unread. I don't consider unsubscribing, however. There is far more to be offered here than there is garbage. It's unusual to be a part of a list where so much is offered. The lists that are strictly regulated are often slow and boring. Most of the OT stuff I delete, unless I see something in the title that catches my eye. There has been a lot of opposition around here lately, which reminds me of something a wise man once told me. (You know who you are.) You will learn to appreciate opposition. Conflict eventually brings harmony as long as it's constructive. JJ has brought many truths to this list, and has often been opposed on those truths. Even I have opposed him on some things, and have eventually found the err in my own thinking. (That blind spot thing.) However, that opposition allows him to clarify something that may have initially been difficult to understand. The point is, don't unsubscribe from the list just because you don't agree with something, or there is a lot of bickering going on. Patience will prove that eventually the 'conflict' will help you to understand something that you didn't initially understand. - Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7836 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: On censorship. Greetings to All, Hello again Xavier, just to answer your question, simply from my perspective: "My spiritual awakening has had several major tools, one of which is a talk radio. And it is by going beyond the annoyance i had at plain people that i opened my upper mind. So i see very well what you mean. YEs, it's good to mention this, but don't you think that most keysters already had a similar awakening to duality?" I know you are asking me what I think here, yet I do not feel I am in a position to truly know who or who has not had 'a similar awakening to duality' because as I see it, we all respond in such different ways, and to different mental stimuli. That must be the beauty of our list, that it provides a many varied 'banquet' at which to awaken and thus partake from the different perspectives. How profound that in this way, we through our endeavors truly 'discover' the confirmation that we are ALL ONE. How intriguing that some see words as challenging, others see them as boring, or running in circles, or obtuse, or noisy or how many variations have we had? We have all experienced this on this list I am certain. I remember when I felt very challenged when every single post JJ kept questioning me about 'what is truth?'... over and over... I finally said the truth is and that's it!! Yet, what else when there is no further answer within myself... I felt he couldn't hear me... couldn't see from where I am my perspective, and most of all he was asking a subjective question... (perhaps to determine my level of understanding, yet really it only determines many times my level of expression!!) yet there is truth that is true and nothing else is... finding it is another matter. I too felt HIS choice (JJ's) to continue that same sequence of questioning over and over...(with Paul Yu, so why are we blaming Paul for heaven's sake!) how long will you stand for your answer... kindly striving to answer to the best of your ability what you know to be true, yet searching desperately for words that provide the meaning you see so clearly in yourself. It's like the brilliant painter or songwriter... just doesn't quite look like what it does inside or sound like what it sounds inside, nor does it convey often times our intended meaning... that's the magnificent challenge not only of being here, but of hearing and sharing with all our beloved brothers and sisters. You know when I found I disagreed with JJ and expressed what I saw as my personal experience and understanding, and was simply told 'that's wrong'... well I felt like a child that came up with a brilliant idea and the parent just trounced on it, and that was it... I felt that 'parent' could not hear me. So what does the child do... well either they stop sharing what are often brilliant ideas, or they leave and go and find an audience more open to their brilliant ideas, open in the sense of willing to discuss and explore and test out for validity. So I would also say to John Wayne Kline and Travis, just because you see something a particular way, and others don't, well that's okay, and we are honoring each of our rights to share within a given topic. Since the topic is forming a molecule, or atom, or even an order for heaven's sakes, the first order of the day, is how do we hear each other, express our different points of view, striving for the highest within us, and open to considering the potentials in those exchanges. I can only say, don't give up. I wanted to, and Travis you gave me a great gift off-line when you said you were glad I returned to the list for the interesting subjects I put forward. I can truly only thank you for that, that you could hear me!! And I would also say to Paul, I am glad you didn't give up, stayed even and kept expressing to the best of your ability. Are we asking Paul to be perfect, to communicate what we want to hear, or are we allowing his freedom of expression on the topic to the best of his ability? So if one sees him going in circles, well he too will learn if he's going in circles and gain that benefit. That to me is the purpose of this list, and when we communicate with sincerity, tolerance, and a truly compassionate desire to understand the other, the doors will open, and the molecular order will come into being of its own accord. Now of course, this is my humble opinion, and I don't really know about the molecular order... I have seen some splendid 'atoms' in couples operating... yet this too occurred without me knowing that they were forming an atom. Yet knowing that definition, I can see its truth mirrored in some I know. Perhaps that is also true of the Molecular Order... groups may be reaching this without our knowledge... how through the willingness to share and understand and love each other. I know you and others often feel Paul is 'talking against JJ'. I don't see it that way. I see they are giving their response and their perspective of how they see what JJ has put forward. For and against, starts people taking sides. Why can we not just simply look at what is said and see if we can hear what the person is trying to say? Then on reflection how does this tie in with what JJ says or Zia says or Xavier says? Wow, what is the relationship here? Perspectives like the elephant do not sound at all alike??!! Maybe by listening to another we will actually get a bigger picture!! That's my goal anyway. Thank you Xavier, for giving me once again the opportunity to express, perhaps a little more refined, perhaps a little clearer (for me at least anyway!!:) "That's why i can appreciate paul, though i don?t his initiating posts, only his answers, by their humanity." This is such fun, my friend!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7837 From: Paul Yu Subject: OT Two sides to everything Hi everyone, Don't we say there are two sides to everything? If you liked somebody, for instance, whatever they said you would consider favorably. If you disliked somebody whatever they said you would interpret unfavorably. The reason why that can happen is because everything has two sides and you naturally choose the side that suits you best. This natural inclination of the personality to oppose differences can likewise be regarded as either a matter of course as viewed by non-aspirants or as something opposed to the soul as perceived by aspirants. The aspirant would want to go along with the soul instead of the personality and pursue love by accepting the differences and then embracing both sides into one. Soul contact brings about this accepting and embracing aspect of love so much so that the one making the contact would respect and love what they see in others however different that may be from their own. Willingness to unconditionally accept that which one truthfully disagrees is considered the critical act of love by which to distinguish aspirants from non-aspirants. It is not but soul-based love that melts opposition into one whole. It is again an issue of difference or opposition between two poles and two choices. How can we ever get away from the issue of illusion of separation of duality and reality of oneness? Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7838 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: OT - Sharri's picture in the Photo Album Greetings to All, Well Hello Sharri... you live in my neck of the woods it seems, and enjoyed your comments and your photo. Since I have met with Sharon and Richard, we certainly have the possibility of all of us meeting at some time. If this is of interest, we could be in contact off-list. I too feel I am with the love of my life, and just having so much fun. Looking forward to sharing, ZIA Samu wrote: "Sharri has shared a photo of herself with us" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7839 From: "* Zia*" Subject: Re: OT Implications of soul contact Greetings to All, Hello Paul, and thank you for the words of wisdom regarding personality, emotions and soul contact. The real test with soul contact is, can one follow its direction when the personality completely disagrees, does not understand, etc. For me, your comments were right on. I have but one question, and that is the question at the end. I don't think I quite got what you meant by 'the empty group structure', or did you mean, the group structure would be empty without soul contact, and therefore what value would that be? If I have understood your question correctly, I would have to reply, it would have no value at all. Trust you will correct me in this regard. In love and laughter, ZIA From Paul Yu: "Soul contact is the center in the path of the aspirant or disciple. It provides them with love as well as light. The service as well as personal progress of the aspirant or disciple is to be measured by the duration, the depth and the mobility of their soul contact." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7840 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: OT Two sides to everything Greetings to All, Ain't that the truth!, about our personality. I discovered if I wanted to be heard, I also had to, to a certain degree, put it in a way that the receiver 'would like'... otherwise, guess what, they simply would not listen. The greatest teachers of that, are our children. Yet the soul I have found is very direct, very straight to the point, and efficient, even in its communication. Yet we can hold our soul communication in our heart, feel our own love, and come forth with a very loving communication knowing our audience. Perhaps that is the purpose of our personality serving the soul/ spirit/God. To be the tempering interface in wisdom. Just a thought... wouldn't want to corrupt the communication of course!! Nor be governed by that audience!! Paul Yu says: "Don't we say there are two sides to everything? If you liked somebody, for instance, whatever they said you would consider favorably. If you disliked somebody whatever they said you would interpret unfavorably. The reason why that can happen is because everything has two sides and you naturally choose the side that suits you best." "This natural inclination of the personality to oppose differences can likewise be regarded as either a matter of course as viewed by non-aspirants or as something opposed to the soul as perceived by aspirants. The aspirant would want to go along with the soul instead of the personality and pursue love by accepting the differences and then embracing both sides into one." "Soul contact brings about this accepting and embracing aspect of love so much so that the one making the contact would respect and love what they see in others however different that may be from their own. Willingness to unconditionally accept that which one truthfully disagrees is considered the critical act of love by which to distinguish aspirants from non-aspirants. It is not but soul-based love that melts opposition into one whole." Another point which has really come to light over my viewing the various new groups lists of commitments has very much to do with this one word 'unconditional'. We have all heard the term unconditional love for a long time. Yet I just wonder if that was ever used in the bible. If we don't send love unless it is asked for, then the 'act of loving' is conditional upon love being requested. For me, I do not see love as an act. I see love as a state of mind. The state of mind in love, is unconditional. So for me there is no question of whether to send love or not, my mind is in a state of love, and out of this state, perhaps whatever I look upon, whatever I think upon, whatever I act upon, receives that state of love. This probably is not making enough sense... yet I live in a state of such love, and feel such a compassion especially when I listen to another's story. It doesn't seem to have any judgment in it. It just sees this person through the eyes of love. Am interested in yours or anyone else's comments on this, as understanding the meaning of conditional in reference to love, would certainly help me. I know I thought for many years that unconditional love was the goal... and that this was a demonstrable feat of some sort. "It is again an issue of difference or opposition between two poles and two choices. How can we ever get away from the issue of illusion of separation of duality and reality of oneness?" Well by what you've written it must not be trying to separate from separation, to gain oneness, that would be isolation. Well who cares what it would be. In uniting with the separate parts of myself, I see I am in reality ONE. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7841 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: biography of Travis T. Into the life and times of Travis. A fellow Dragon creature, like me. I knew I liked this guy. Maybe hot headed and quick tempered but sincere, honest and quick to cool off also. I was born in Columbus, OH on December 17, 1976. That makes me a 22 year old Sagitarius (as if you couldn't figure that out yourselves). As far as astrology goes, I like my Chinese sign better, The Dragon. My family moved to Utah when I was very young, and I don't remember anything from Ohio. I am presently living in Layton, Utah. About 30 miles North of Salt Lake. I like it here, as there is a lot of outdoor stuff I can do all year long. I intend to try snowboarding this winter so I can get something I can enjoy about the snow. I didn't like skiing, but I learned to surf during a couple vacations in Hawaii visiting family and really enjoyed it. I do not presently have a partner, working or romantic. I would be open to the possibility of having one, but am not presently looking very hard. I feel I have plenty of time before it's needed, and that rushing it will only cause problems. So I choose to wait patiently (ok, not always so patiently, but I try) for the right person to show themselves. I have not been to NJ. I have seen the outside of it, but never gotten far enough to ask for entry. I get the feeling I've been there before. Kind of a Deja Vu of sorts. The descriptions of rooms brings back childhood memories of a place in my mind I used to go to think. I was not usually inside though, I was outside playing in the parks and such. My memories are a bit fuzzy that far back, but I don't recall doing anything in particular to get there. Just decide to "think". My mind is so cluttered now that I find meditation difficult, I'm working on that. I do not have any children. I would like some at some point in the distant future though. ;) I really enjoy being around kids, there is something about them that is very fascinating. Helping them discover the world is very fulfilling, I can see why people decide to become teachers. I seem to connect to them, as if we can communicate (keep the jokes about my being childish to yourself please!). So for now I just make sure to spoil everyone else's kids rotten and give them back. *Big Evil Grin* I heard about "The Immortal" from a friend, who will remain anonymous to protect the guilty. ;) I started reading it while I was at work, big mistake. I was totally unproductive for the rest of that day and half of the next one. I was lucky and had a job I could get away with it at. A real "can't put it down" sort of book. My life? Well, pretty boring actually. ;) I get up, work out at the gym, and go to work. Work isn't very interesting most of the time. I'm a programmer right now. If it has to do with computers, I've probably done it. It's a fun field, but the day to day work can be boring. When I get home I get into one of my hobbies or spend time with my family and friends. I don't really have anything to relate on a spiritual level. I don't hang out with The Ancient of Days in NJ or anything like that. ;) I like being on the list because the people are fun and the topics of discussion are very interesting to me. I don't really "get" a lot of it at times though. I understand it on a mental level. But I don't really get "moved" spiritually like others on the list. I feel like a spiritual mountain at times, just sitting there doing nothing much. :) I think I'm waiting for something, but I don't know what. Whatever it is, so far this group seems most likely to provide it. I don't get along with religion because I demand proof for everything and they can't give me any. I don't take much on "faith". I guess I spent too much time studying sciences. My family, to quote Kirk, "Did a little too much LDS". ;) That pushed me away from religion a lot. As for a lesson, I think perhaps the most important lesson in life thus far is that I am in control of my own life and I can't expect others to solve my problems. I went through a dark time about 8 ears ago when I was depressed. I spent a lot of time and money talking to shrinks and taking drugs. None of which helped. Then, one morning I got up, and started thinking about life. I decided I wasn't happy with things as they were. And somehow I figured out that it wasn't the drugs and doctors that I needed, it was me. I threw out all the drugs and felt better just by taking control and doing that. I think, more then anything, that demonstrated my power of decision to me. Later, when I read JJs book, I related decision to that event in my life, when I learned to use it. Good thing that's all the questions you had Lorraine, I'm feeling a bit exposed now so I'm going to go close up my coat. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7842 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: OT Two sides to everything When I was on some other lists, there was this guy that was on all of them. Most of his posts irritated the heck out of me. We would frequently "debate" on and off list, sometimes quite heatedly. Every once in a while he would post something quite useful and nice. I grew a lot through my conflicts with him and it was he that introduced me and many of the other founding members of this list to The Immortal. When I downloaded and read the whole book, for myself, I loved it but had issues with some of the things JJ said would be in book two. I wrote him a disagreeable e-mail and didn't expect a reply, but one came. He chose to lovingly begin teaching me with his reminder that if I rely on the authority of others, for my beliefs, I give authority to the beast. Thwack, an arrow to the heart, that broke the chains that had held me for 20 years. I bought book 2, became a student and within two weeks started the Keys of Knowledge. We all know what potential there is in this list. Keep in mind that two guys I didn't agree with were what inspired it, in the first place. As long as we are using these keyboards to type words back and forth, there will be many different ways of getting to the same truth. As often as not, the truth will reach you in words you don't want to hear. When I chose to serve truth, as my only master, I began to see that not all of her messengers were fair of face or had golden wings. You want everything delivered on a silver platter, get a religion. You want truth, enter open minded into a few more debates. That's my story and I'm sticking to it (till a better one comes along), Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com learn about paleo nutrition at http://www.neanderthin.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7843 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: OT Implications of soul contact Zia writes: "The real test with soul contact is, can one follow its direction when the personality completely disagrees, does not understand, etc. For me, your comments were right on." "I have but one question, and that is the question at the end. I don't think I quite got what you meant by 'the empty group structure', or did you mean, the group structure would be empty without soul contact, and therefore what value would that be?" Hi Zia, Just as a mundane group is formed by the common interest of personalities so a spiritual group is formed by the common interest of souls. Like attracts like on the soul level, and personalities as equipments of souls come together as well. Without close contact of souls the group would be reduced to a group of personalities, a mundane group, empty of common spiritual aspiration. Such group would, as you say, have no value at all. A spiritual group is not merely a body but an animated body with the life of the soul. Even DK failed in his experiment in this respect. The group was not impersonal enough to be maintained as a spiritual group. Soul contact in the fullest sense of the word or group consciousness is ultimately responsible for success of such groups. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7844 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: OT Two sides to everything Zia writes: "Ain't that the truth!, about our personality. I discovered if I wanted to be heard, I also had to, to a certain degree, put it in a way that the receiver 'would like'... otherwise, guess what, they simply would not listen. The greatest teachers of that, are our children. Yet the soul I have found is very direct, very straight to the point, and efficient, even in its communication. Yet we can hold our soul communication in our heart, feel our own love, and come forth with a very loving communication knowing our audience. Perhaps that is the purpose of our personality serving the soul/spirit/God. To be the tempering interface in wisdom. Just a thought... wouldn't want to corrupt the communication of course!! Nor be governed by that audience!!" Hi Zia, It is a learning experience to put thoughts into words in a way that is most suitable to the audience. This is a difficulty coming from the limited personality. More importantly however is for the soul to communicate to souls with the language of love and the language of truth of love as well as love of truth. The best the personality can do is emulate on the personality level what the soul is doing with souls. Whatever happens after all has been done leave to the forgotten world. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-25/7845 From: "Jackie Leve" Subject: It has been a long and winding road! But I have returned to the list! Nice to be back! :-) Love~*~Laughter From my heart to yours... Flutterby }}i{{ www.killerbutterfly.com Killerbutterfly.Com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7846 From: J J Dewey Subject: Running Waters My friends, When I told you I hoped there would be many interesting posts to read when I returned it looks like you took my words to heart. It took me a while to read them all. My first reflection brings to mind a great statement from the past: "How long can rolling waters remain impure?" The waters here are in motion making stagnation impossible and the motion toward Becoming a reality. I also see that the disturbance of the waters brought out some lurkers and some old members back into play, particularly Rob and John Kosier, with words of wisdom. I'll give you several of my thoughts on this matter. I see the word censorship keeps surfacing, sometimes I think a little unfairly. As long as a person or group does not attempt to restrict the free speech of others by their own initiative they are within their rights to create a group, forum, newsletter or whatever which is confined to certain lines of thought. For instance, it would not be unfair censorship to have a forum on atomic physics and to attempt to prevent people from posting on bird watching. The bird watchers still have their freedom to create a forum of their own design with no limits on their discussion. To force a discussion on bird watching on the atomic scientists would take away more freedom than it gives so one could not cry censorship here in the name of freedom. With that said then should we make rules here that will silence Paul for good and send him into the ethers of oneness where none can speak? I think not. But neither should we seek to silence postings such as John W, Glenys, Anni, Travis and others who have spoken in painful honesty. If one believes that Paul has a right to be heard then those who think he is out of line also deserve to be heard, even if feathers are ruffled. Rick is the initiator of this list and as such has set certain guidelines from the beginning. There have been times when he has warned us to not get too far off topic and then others when he tells us to lighten up. It is a good sign that he has pushed both directions. We may not always agree with him, but it is good to have a common sense moderator to keep the house in order. Basically then I support the idea of maintaining the list with the same guidelines that we have followed from the beginning. We have never asked anyone to leave and I do not think we have to. In fact I do not remember anyone ever asking anyone else to leave. Some have asked certain people to either stay on topic or start their own list which is certainly within the perimeters of this list for one to so request. I must take part of the blame for any distraction that Paul has caused for I have spent quite a bit of time countering his posts. I felt this was necessary because this topic is one that is bound to come up time and time again and I hoped to state my position as clearly as possible. Some may find it interesting that Philo from the book even argued on some of the same topics we have been discussing. Let me quote: My fear was somewhat reinforced by Elizabeth's next statement, "So are you a part of the Brotherhood of Light?" "So you know of the Brotherhood?" he (Philo) asked, a little surprised. "Some things," she said. "Tell me something you know," he said. I tried sending Elizabeth a mental message to not reveal too much. She answered. "I know that there is a Brotherhood of Light and then there are the Dark Brothers." "Ahh. The illusion of good and evil," said Philo. "In the end, good and evil are seen as two parts of a whole. The Brotherhood is just the Brotherhood. They are neither good nor evil. They just are. You just are. I just am. I AM." He spoke I AM with the mannerism that he was saying something infinitely profound. "So, do you see yourself as being one with the Brotherhood?" I asked. Philo looked in the direction of the ceiling. "All who are one with the Higher Self are brothers and dwell in oneness." "But I have had a definite experience where I have encountered a being from the invisible world that was definitely not good. He was definitely evil and wanted to do me harm," Elizabeth countered. Philo began pacing back and forth, his hands clasped behind his back. "There are lives in every plane who do not realize their connection with their source and seem to do harm. In reality, they are just mischievous children who have not found their way home. If one of them comes into your life experience you must ask yourself why you needed that experience." "So, you are saying that if someone robs me it's because I need the experience?" I asked. "Yes, and if the experience seems unpleasurable, you must ask yourself what there is in you that wants pain in your life rather than pleasure.." "Do you believe in karma then?" Elizabeth asked. "Karma is for those who feel they need it. When you no longer need it, you do not have to suffer its consequences." "So, if I kill someone and decide I don't have a need to pay for my crime, then I don't have to pay for my wrong doing?" I said, incredulous at his philosophy. He reflected a second and replied slowly, "You bring to you what you think you need. If you feel you do not need punishment, then you will not draw it to you." "So if he is not punished, how will he learn that it is wrong to kill?" Elizabeth asked. "All souls progress toward the Light, and as we do, we just drop our harmful characteristics and keep the good. The old souls become part of the One Brotherhood. It does not matter what they have done in the past because it is the past and they live in the present. The Present is all there is." "See. I told you this guy was great, didn't I?" Lance exclaimed, elbowing my arm. "He has an answer for everything." "But having an answer and the right answer are two different things," I said, glaring at Philo. I think that we should continue to have an open forum. Then if there arises someone who seems to be distracting from the teachings or posting too much off topic the free speech within the forum will allow others to send strong messages that will cause the offenders to self moderate their posts. The natural interplay of the members themselves will cause the postings on the list to settle down to a happy medium. Meanwhile, I believe I have said about all that is pertinent for the present on duality. If I say much more I will start duplicating myself and probably convince no one. If someone feels ambitious it may be profitable to comb through my writings on Samu's archives and create a compilation of my writings related to duality, karma and oneness. Then when the subject comes up again we can just send them these postings. I personally hope to concentrate more on the pure teachings which I'm sure will be good news to most of you. I'll be posting more shortly. Love to all, including you Paul, JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7847 From: Xavier Subject: Re: It has been a long and winding road! Hi, Flutterby, warm welcome. JJ is due back today, and what you see here for now is a bit messy;-) (YEs folks, i'm getting concerned too, and will try to take care of my posts to the list, in order for them not to add (or to add less) to the OT pull) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7848 From: Jean Subject: Re: OT Two sides to everything Rick, I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks for sharing that, it is so true.......We must learn to listen, sometimes what we don't want to hear is just what we need to hear.. My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime "When I was on some other lists, there was this guy that was on all of them. Most of his posts irritated the heck out of me. We would frequently "debate" on and off list, sometimes quite heatedly. Every once in a while he would post something quite useful and nice. I grew a lot through my conflicts with him and it was he that introduced me and many of the other founding members of this list to The Immortal. When I downloaded and read the whole book, for myself, I loved it but had issues with some of the things JJ said would be in book two. I wrote him a disagreeable e-mail and didn't expect a reply, but one came. He chose to lovingly begin teaching me with his reminder that if I rely on the authority of others, for my beliefs, I give authority to the beast." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7849 From: Jean Subject: OT- J.J response/Travis biography Dear Keysters, First off Travis your biography is great, as the others were, don't feel like you have to pull the covers over your head :) J.J, as always your wisdom shines through as did Ricks, earlier. I agree totally with you. Keysters, I think what J.J, said really hits home, I think we need to learn to listen and if we do not want to then you know you do not have to read that particular post but keep in mind, being open minded is what opens you up to wisdom if you let it....I think we all really need to say the prayer and meditate, bring back the peace. Your fellow keyster, Jean Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7850 From: Marylin Subject: Re: OT- J.J response/Travis biography Jean writes: "I think we all really need to say the prayer and meditate, bring back the peace." Already done. I had a new experience yesterday late afternoon while sitting in the college parking lot waiting for my grandson. I had the very strong impression to sing the Song. So I did, out loud. And the feeling after was one of great peace. I pictured the list as I did so and today I am celebrating. Three cheers for SOUL CONTACT. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7851 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT running waters This isn't really OT, but not that deep either, so i like to give warning. I told Marylin i was staying in my foxhole till the sniping was over. She replied that she tried to do that, but felt the pain in some of the posts and had to try to help in any way she could "and a child shall lead them" she is God's child regardless of age, and i feel I should have ventured out long ago. I agree with many, and while i don't always understand everything Paul is saying, i know he is frictioning me (us?) into some deeper understanding. Please, Paul don't leave, if we can't try to get in touch with each other here what possible chance do we have alone and naked in 3D? love to all from chicken sharon ^I^ ^I^ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7852 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Welcome back, flutterby, (BTW, love the handle) Don't remember seeing you before, but so very glad to meet you now. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7853 From: "Darlene Williams" Subject: Re: knowledge- example of being off topic I thought your example very good. When I read the first couple of sentences where you incited a discussion of what knowledge is I thought "Okay. A discussion I'd enjoy" But as I read further I saw your point about examining my intentions of being with this mailing list. Am I hear to have philosophical discussions about generalities or am I here to learn more about what was revealed in The Immortal? My answer is I am interested in doing both of those things! I think that if there was more direction by J.J. regarding a "study" of the keys, etc. that we could tailor our discussions like John did with him. When you have an open forum you invite in talk to fill the space. Unless you have direction by someone, you get direction by anyone. This is not to imply that none else has solid ideas, but the road others choose to go down is left open by the lack of structure of the open forum itself. So without regulating the topics, someone, if not J.J., needs to help focus the discussions along these lines. It doesn't have to be with any criticism of any other talk, only a redirection into the talk you want to have. If you recall the discussions John had with J.J. he used the same type of approach. J.J. was full of questions that didn't pertain to the general purpose of his meetings with John and what he did was to briefly address them and return to his primary topic or he'd say, there isn't time for that or something similar, and return to his primary topic. The point is he was always steering the boat in the direction he wanted it to go. It wasn't done roughly, it was just done. I think using him as an example of how to produce the type of forum we want would be a valuable tool. The idea of really discussing the keys themselves appeals to me immensely. After all, that is what brought me here to begin with. I have only been on this mailing list for about 2 weeks, but I don't think I've seen any discussion directed toward this aim since I've been here. So, WHO OR WHAT ARE YOU? Did you ever get really clear about that? Did John answer you sufficiently that you now have a totally different perspective about life itself? How has coming from this perspective changed your life? What influence has thinking this about yourself and therefore others had on you (and others you relate with)? Does it apply to all of life...animals, etc or just human beings? Does it apply to all forms found in life...mountains, water, etc or just animated life forms? Discuss on with enthusiasm, Darlene Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7854 From: "Darlene Williams" Subject: Re: FOCUS I thought this was a great post Lorraine. It helped me understand more about how a molecular relationship might work. Thanks. How do you "decide" on the partner that you join with first? Out of many people that you meet and feel resonance with how do you choose the one to put in that position? Are there any guidelines or is it intuitive? Or did I misunderstand you that you specifically chose 1 person to join with in this molecular relationship and then built on that? Darlene Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7855 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Running Waters J J Dewey wrote: "But neither should we seek to silence postings such as John W, Glenys, Anni, Travis and others who have spoken in painful honesty. If one believes that Paul has a right to be heard then those who think he is out of line also deserve to be heard, even if feathers are ruffled." Thanks for the good words JJ. Glad to see you back. For the sake of clarity I will make one more statement on this whole thing since a few posts lead me to believe I am still not understood, then shut up on it. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, JJ, or anyone else. They are welcome to state that and start a discussion on it. It's when it goes for weeks with no real discussion that I get bothered by it. If one truly wishes to discuss, they don't use circular reasoning, because by it's very nature such a discussion can't go anywhere. Such discussions are a pointless waste of bandwidth and my time to read them. I do make use of the delete command, but I still have to read part of it to decide it's fluff and delete it. I could make a mail filter to delete all of Paul's posts outright so I never see them. But that would be stupid. He has posted some interesting comments, and I invite him to continue to do so. I just ask that he keep on topic and refrain from going round and round saying the same thing over and over again. The same thing I ask of anyone. I believe everyone has a right to be heard, but there is a place and a time for everything. JJ covered that well and I won't repeat him. I hope that clarifies my stance on things a little. If you want to discuss it please reply to me off-list so as not to bother everyone else. My flamethrower is out of gas anyway. ;) Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7856 From: Laura Subject: Re: FOCUS Darlene, I would think it's completely intuitive. What you're given is a bunch of puzzle pieces and some will be really close fits and others will be brilliantly attractive, but only one will actually be the one that *fits*. This isn't to say that there is only one person out there for any other person, but rather to say that you KNOW when you've hit that perfect fit. Don't pine day and night for it, but rather work on your own meditation and furthering yourself before hoping and praying for that true working partner, your equal. Many people make the mistake of seeing spiritual wisdom or power in another person and automatically try to go for him or her. Often times when this happens an unequal relationship is created where one person is giving more than they should and the other may be taking more than what is their right to take. It gets scary sometimes in that kind of relationship and can be spiritually and emotionally draining and leave the couple confused. Working partners are equals, they are the Ying to the other's Yang. They are complimentary but - ABOVE ALL - they realize themselves not as parts of a whole, but as a whole within themselves. To be ready to take on the challenge and the benefits of having a working partner, you must know internally and believe that you are enough, in and of yourself. You need to man nor woman to make you feel complete. You are created in God's own image and - flaws and all - are complete within yourself. It is true that two halves make a whole, but they make an imperfect whole most times. But when two wholes come together? Watch out world!! :) And when 12 atoms of wholes form a molecule? Mind shattering. Personally, I can't even comprehend the power between two symbiotic wholes, much less an entire molecule of them. So to summarize, my point would be that you should listen to your soul - and keep in mind that it doesn't repeat itself and speaks very softly. Personally, I learned that lesson the hard way. You get distracted by the louder internal voices. The ego in particular *shivers* that's the one that many get caught up in and mistake that part of their lower, personality self as being wisdom from the soul. Listen closer. Be comfortable with your choice in a partner, should it happen. And when you join with that partner, I would have to assume that the spiritual vibration would be more beautiful and even more powerful than anything you've felt so far:) Of course this is coming from a girl whose only physical working partner is her *cat*, so take this with a grain of salt:) Although there's no telling what I've been up to in spirit in NJ.. *mischievous giggle* -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7857 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: -26 BevSalzman@aol.com BJ and sending love First let me start by saying I think the desire to help others is commendable. However, there is more to helping others than sending love. And in my opinion if you wish to influence somebody( in any way) without their explicit request and consent this is meddling with energy or influencing from a distance. However good your intentions are, is it good to influence people? Sending refers to a wish to *do* something, a desire. Every desire has its root in the third chakra, the center of the (lower) personality. The purest of people will never send love. Doing something that is good for somebody when the person did not ask for it is like saying: "Take this, it is good for you!" You did not ask the other person if they wanted it. they dont have a chance to say "I don't want it!" You shove it down that person's throat. You have basically just said that person's free will/power of decision is not to be respected. What you are actually saying is that you know better than the other person what is good for them, and you insist on doing it. Moreover you have not asked their consent, you just did not say I'm going to try to send you love at this time. If you can love without sending love, I mean let love arise on its own accord, only then is it pure love. The intention to send love is not pure. You are sending energy of a certain vibration, this may be perceived as love depending on who is the recipient and their level of growth. It can and may make purer people sick. People are responsible for themselves. They have to choose for themselves. If people don't choose what is good for them if you offer, it is their decision, and that needs to be respected. Some of the most difficult lessons for those who wish to work as a healer/therapist is to respect other people's right to learn and grow on their own, at their own pace, and only to help when asked, even if you know how to help them and that would be real easy for you to do. When not asked, do not assist. If you do, you patronize. Also if you do, you may be helping somebody to a next level, but because they have not done it themselves, the chance that they plummet is much higher, and if they do, you are responsible for the fact that it was such a height. Why did you think the more advanced beings don't teach us directly? We all have to do it ourselves. You are allowed to help, when asked, with what is asked. Don't smother with love. Where is the switch you refer to? Where in the chakras or aura layers is that switch? How can one turn it off? Experiments have shown it is possible to influence even plants with emotions, so how do you guard against that? If you don't know the giver benefits........ it can be described, and I would recommend you finding out. If your switch is ON, you will swallow all that comes your way wouldn't you?....good and bad. Sorry but I was choking on the baloney. Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7858 From: "* Zia" Subject: (OT) Robin Bryant Health Update Greetings to All, Had a wonderful conversation with Robin today, she is progressing beautifully, and was able to be out pruning the roses... one of her favotire tasks!! I was delighted with her progress and her as always happy and inspiring nature!! She has been undergoing chemo-therapy for the non-specific abdominal cancer... and of course these treatments have really knocked her around. Yet she reports that after the last treatment she recovered quicker, and feels that will continue to be the case. The doctors say she has up to six more treatments (yuk!!) however she feels she will not require them all. I must thank sincerely Sharon and Richard for their devotion to my friend, and all of you on the list, for it is having such a beneficial effect. I would also ask that you continue with your loving thoughts and pure energy transfers to her, so that she may maintain and speedily recover completely. We had such laughter together that it was hard to believe what she has been going through. Thank you all so much on behalf of Robin, and also myself, for we are indeed one, and our support is vital to our loved ones. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7859 From: Jean Subject: Re: OT- J.J response/Travis biography Three Cheers Marylin, :))))) My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7860 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: OT Implications of soul contact Greetings to All, Paul Yu wrote: "Just as a mundane group is formed by the common interest of personalities so a spiritual group is formed by the common interest of souls. Like attracts like on the soul level, and personalities as equipments of souls come together as well. Without close contact of souls the group would be reduced to a group of personalities, a mundane group, empty of common spiritual aspiration. Such group would, as you say, have no value at all. A spiritual group is not merely a body but an animated body with the life of the soul." "Even DK failed in his experiment in this respect. The group was not impersonal enough to be maintained as a spiritual group. Soul contact in the fullest sense of the word or group consciousness is ultimately responsible for success of such groups." The above is a very sobering thought... that these masters work very hard and with such a focus, unimpeded by the dramas we face at times of just being in the physical, and yet DK was unsuccessful. Wow, that is such a sobering thought. The indictment 'the group was not impersonal enough to be maintained as a spiritual group' is a thought worth contemplating in its implications and challenges of 'impersonal'. Perhaps it is why I have sought to let go of judgments, particularly those that are repetitive, reaction seeking and personality based. HMMMMmmmmmmm In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7861 From: J J Dewey Subject: Chapter 33 CHAPTER THIRTY-THREE RIGHT USE OF MONEY Just as sex is an energy, so is money. All energies by themselves are neither good or evil but are neutral. Their direction determines their effect. Money obviously can be used for either good or evil and, again, if it is used only for the separative selfish self, it is relatively evil; if it is used with purpose toward union, then it is good. This does not mean that all the pleasures of the lower self are to always be sacrificed in the realms of money, power and sex. The point is that it is important that the personality self be satisfied and happy; however, in its separative condition, it does not know how to fulfill itself. Only the Higher Self, or the Soul, knows how to bring complete fulfillment to the lower. This is another principle to ponder. The higher knows how to fulfill the lower, but the lower is generally ignorant of the higher and knows not how to fulfill itself. When we consecrate our energies toward Soul Purpose, personality fulfillment is not sacrificed but enhanced, for the higher has power to fulfill the lower. When the Soul is in control, we have much more enjoyment from all the energies of money, power and sex. When we covenant to channel our money toward union, we are virtually promising to direct it to fulfill the purpose of God. The main purpose that needs to be fulfilled at this point in history is the creation of the Molecular Order, or the physical manifestation of the Kingdom of God on the earth. Does this mean that we must cease making our house payments and other necessities, entertainment, etc. and give all of our money toward the kingdom of God? No. these expenses may be necessary if we are to be able servants to do the work. We are meant to have abundance; therefore, the money we spend on necessities should be with the attitude of making us better vessels to fulfill Purpose rather than for the fulfillment of the lower self. We need to stay emotionally and mentally healthy if we are to be good servants for humanity; therefore it is recognized that a certain amount must sometimes be spent on what may appear to be frivolous. Unfortunately, some will read these words and take them to the extreme. This is why Soul contact is important, for the Soul will always guide us in the correct use of energy, and it will be a little different for each person. If Molecular members are to give of their surplus funds to a benevolent cause, after their necessities are purchased, most may give next to nothing. Thus it is important that we establish a general rule here. People in ancient times paid a tithing or ten percent of their income to finance spiritual matters. There is an interesting scripture on this in the Bible where the Lord is rebuking Israel for forgetting to pay their tithes: "Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground: neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:7-12 The God that created us has given us all that we have, and to create the power of union that we need, He expects us to contribute 10% of our money energy directly toward the purpose of the Union of Souls. If we do not do this, He tells us that we "rob" Him. He tells us to prove his Word. If we do make the contribution, He will pour more blessings on us than we have room to receive, and He will help us financially by rebuking "the devourer". The devourer is the negative energy which destroys our financial well being. Thus, the promise is that we will always have enough for our needs if we follow the principle of tithing. Remember, we said the higher has power to fulfill the lower. When we dedicate ten percent toward Soul purpose, then the power of the Soul is brought forth to insure that you will always have increase, for the Soul then has an interest in your financial well-being. Just like your banker wants you to succeed when he has an interest in your business, so will your Soul direct you toward financial independence and prosperity if we dedicate ten percent toward Its purpose. The Molecular member should make it a goal to contribute ten percent of his income after taxes toward that which he perceives as furthering the Purpose of God. This will be money which is directed toward an evolutionary cause and not directly toward himself or his family. It must be recognized that for some it may be impossible to pay a full ten percent when they first commit themselves. It may seem that in most cases at the end of the month people need an extra ten percent just to break even rather than to give ten percent and then be even. This is not a black and white demand. Nevertheless, if we examine our budget and priorities most people can find a way to give a full tithe. If we understand the principle of tithing as taught in the Bible we would be happy to pay the ten per cent. Through the eyes of the Higher Self sacrifice is impossible. To give and to receive are one. Therefore when we give money to a group cause we are only giving to ourselves in a more profound way than any personal benefit we would get from the money. One committed to the soul will sense from the Higher Self that he is expected to give what he can to help create the kingdom of God whether that amount be one percent, ten, or twenty. A successful Molecule must be composed of people who have totally dedicated themselves to creating group life. The cause we have espoused is much greater than the present churches. The commitment we are making is more serious, and each dollar we spend will have hundreds of times the positive effect as their dollars. Cannot we therefore gather together a resolve within ourselves to contribute at least as much as an average religious person who generally has much less understanding than ourselves? In initiating great change, there is great opportunity to pay off past negative karma and attain some surplus on the positive side. If we cannot be as faithful to the highest we perceive as the emotionally polarized person in an orthodox religion, then what hope of glory do we have? If we see the vision of the tithe, and how it can benefit ourselves and the work, we will find a way to pay it. Nevertheless, some will have difficulty in paying a full tithe when they first make the commitment. If they do then they should seek to serve the work by some donation of their time to an evolutionary cause. The gift of giving is as important to the giver as it is to the Molecular member. We should remember that money is energy and when we are giving money we are giving some of our energy to the group life. This will help make the individual feel a part of the larger life. If there is no giving of energy to the higher life then our energy will fall back upon ourselves and all our concerns will be upon the needs of the lower self and we shall die to the reality of the higher life. Question: OK, I'm willing to do my share. Where shall I send it or what shall I do? Answer: At present we have no organization set up to handle donations and it may be a while before this occurs, but should not stop anyone from applying the principle of giving. In fact some are already giving of their time which is just as valid as giving of money. Rick gives quite a bit of time in managing the list. Mark and several others are donating time as historians. Glenys has spent money and given time to creating a Synthesis Group. Lorraine works as an interviewer for us. Anni has ran ads. Then we can't forget Samu for keeping up the archives. All these things are a good start in the higher dedication of the money/time energy. Keep in mind that money and time are very closely related because time is used to create money and money can buy time. If one is able to give money a higher cause here is the principle he should follow. He should pick the highest good that he understands and give money in that direction. This principle will mean different things to different people. Some may have a desire to help the poor. If I saw this as a highest good I would just give directly to the needy rather than to some organization that takes a giant cut for administration. Others may see the curing of disease as a highest good. For them a donation of a tithe to some research may bring much more fruit than a regular religious contribution. Others (such as some on this list) may see the building of the Kingdom of God as the highest conceivable good and as much more important than supporting charities, because when it is brought in many of the purposes of the charities will be automatically fulfilled. Let me give you here what I believe to be the next major step that must be accomplished as far as our group is concerned. They key to our success will be the distribution of the book, the Immortal. So far we have just scratched the surface for as a self publisher I do not have the distribution outlets as a large publisher does. We are making inroads, but the progress is slow, largely because of my lack of time on my part to concentrate on it. The largest advantage of higher distribution will be the eventual freeing of my hands so I can dedicate my full time to the work and eventually travel and give seminars. I will also be able to speedily write the next ten volumes of the Immortal. I get a constant stream of requests to finish Book III, but at present my soul guides me to spend my small amount of free time in working with my friends on this list. Whenever I am tired and feel like going to bed and not writing anything I sense an inner voice coming to me saying, "feed my sheep." This is a real presence I feel and I perceive that I must honor it and so I write and when I start the words always come and when they come I then feel additional strength and when the writing is done I realize that I am also one of the sheep who is being fed by the process. Since we do not yet have a non profit organization here is what you can do if you are seeing as I do. You can donate your time by getting free copies of Book One from us and distributing them to various waiting rooms where someone may pick them up or mailing them to friends. We will send you all the Book One's you want free of charge as long as you distribute them. For about every 4-6 you wisely pass out one will buy the whole book. You can buy copies of the red book containing volumes one and two and give them away to friends, libraries or book store owners. We also need someone to call bookstores during business hours. If any of you have free time during the day and are willing to do some long distance calling in the United States we can supply you with a calling script and all the bookstores you are willing to call. If a person realizes the principle of giving, yet does not see the same vision as some of us on the list who see the importance of the Molecular Order, there are many other ways to give. If one picks the highest good that he can see and supports it with his means as well as his words he will indeed receive back more than he has means to understand. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7862 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Welcome Hi Ben Being lazy, I sat back and waited for others to welcome you and your incisive posts. I'm sure I am not alone in thinking you have a lot to offer us, and vice versa. Jennifer PS Is anyone else getting all of the previous day's posts repeated in the middle of those of the current day? What is happening? And Samu, I can't see Sharri on your website. !!**???! Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7863 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Who or what are you? That is an interesting question, and I welcome any and all to help me understand better. I've read the book. Decision, attention and consciousness. So??? Here is what I understand... Energy follows attention. Attention is the focus point of awareness or consciousness itself. Attention is a miraculous thing, when you focus your attention you can achieve things by putting energy in the object of attention.( and when you dont pay attention to a mosquito bite (and in that way stop putting energy into it) it will not bother you. Decision, and the power to decide is linked to freedom and responsibility. When you decide, you take up responsibility for your self, and guide yourself down a path. Each decision defines the framework or rules by which you will continue down the path. Picking up responsibility for your life is extremely important if you wish to influence and direct your life. Consciousness is linked to awareness, and paying attention increases it. I knew this before I read the first key. So why am I not impressed by any magic Click. Am I missing it all? or was it just that I knew this already? Anybody? Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7864 From: Laura Subject: Webpage Okay guys :) I want to offer up a bit of an apology, as it is Wednesday and the webpage is nowhere near completion!!! I'll give you my excuse, which is the fact that i've taken on a second job and am now working about.. 65-70 hours a week, which is more than what I'm used to, to say the least. I am carving out some scheduled free time and will continue working on the page, but I wanted to let you know that the launch date HAS been pushed back, but has not been forgotten. I'm currently in the process of moving my husband out of our apartment and as soon as that is done, I will guarantee that I will be working on the page :) Really. I mean it this time. *Wink* Kudos to all you peeps who expressed your true opinions about the positives and negatives of this list. I agree that open and honest communication is a key to unity. Pent up emotions build anger and frustration (Lord knows I was feeling enough of it), which is something we certainly don't need :) I, for one, think the list as a whole is progressing in a very positive direction and I foresee some great things happening in the future, a future that is almost close enough to touch!!! So, to coin a phrase, Love & Light (and chocolate.. can't forget the chocolate) to you all, Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7865 From: Laura Subject: Magic Clicks (was Re: Who or what are you?) Ben, The magick click, as you put it, happened to me with the first keyword - Decision. Actually, the word that come to mind for me was "Will", which is kinda a round about way of saying the same thing (although not entire the same, but hey.. I was just getting used to soul contact). Personally, although I've always been a spiritual person in the fact that I've always believed in some sort of a higher power, I had always seen it as an us and them situation. We are down here and They are up there and the only interaction comes when we're pleading for something. Well. I felt like this as I was attending the Christian church as well as when I was following Pagan practices (both Wicca and Asatru, and kinda a combination of both. Go Loki!) But this book brought a realization - and the song confirmed it - of the role that we truly play in the evolution of the species. It is through man's interaction with man that God truly works. The Master and the Ancient of Days know that it is pretty much useless to come down here and reveal themselves personally to all of mankind. Yes, it's a very powerful message, but it is better communicated through human vehicles, like ourselves. Realizing that I play a role - that ALL OF US play a role in this message to man is something that kinda hit me like a ton of bricks. I guess you could say that is the second 'magick click'. Philosophy has never been my strong point. I'm an artist, I'm a musician, my heart and soul lie in the communication of ideas and emotions through alternative methods. Yes, I have a knack for a written word, but it is music that sets my heart ablaze and art that brings my soul to life. This is how I communicate best, and this is my chosen way :) So in Book 1 where I'm reading all this philosophical debating about Who or What We Are, I was fascinated. These were lines of thought that I've never explored before and was certainly unfamiliar territory:) Anyhow.. I have to get back to work, but my mind is going a mile a minute :) ehehehehehehee!!!!! My biorhythms are picking back up this week, I'm going to be a hyper mess by Halloween.. Yahooooo!! -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7866 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT WELCOME Ben, may i join with darlin' Jennifer in welcoming you to this wonderful family, your postings are most interesting and appreciated. Your are obviously a man of great courage to come in the middle of some heated family conversations AND STAY! We are a warm and most loving family and very passionate, it keeps us on our toes. Sit, dear Ben, fill your mind & heart, the servings never stop. lifting a loving cup to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7867 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Webpage - and O.T. Laura writes: "So, to coin a phrase, Love & Light (and chocolate.. can't forget the chocolate) to you all," Yeaaaaa! And another chocoholic bites the dust and confesses. LOL Isn't chocolate supposed to be the "nectar of the Gods"? Love that stuff. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7868 From: Bev Salzman Subject: Re: -26 BevSalzman@aol.com BJ and sending lo Ben Meijer writes: "And in my opinion if you wish to influence somebody( in any way) without their explicit request and consent this is meddling with energy or influencing from a distance. However good your intentions are, is it good to influence people?" I don't feel that sending love or light is trying to influence, any more than what the sun does when it shines on us. It is an energy that is neutral and allows one the freedom to be without any tugging in one direction or another. Ben The purest of people will never send love. BJ Who are these purest of people? Ben You are allowed to help, when asked, with what is asked. Dont smother with love. BJ If love is smothering, it is not love. BJ In taking responsibility for myself as an individual, there is nothing outside of me that has influence. Only that which I directly call for in my life. I may not ask a person directly for help. My actions and intentions will bring situations to me for the experiences that I draw forth or requested before this lifetime. Ben Where is the switch you refer to? Where in the chakras or aura layers is that switch? How can one turn it off? Experiments have shown it is possible to influence even plants with emotions, so how do you guard against that? BJ The switch is in our mind. It is where we make a conscious choice for the experiences we wish to draw to us. It is in every cell of our being. We have the control. This is our power. Do not be deceived that you are a lesser being. You do not need to guard against yourself and what is in every fiber of your being. You will not bring harm, unless that is what you desire to radiate, and that is what another entity is drawing forth. Ben If your switch is ON, you will swallow all that comes your way wouldn't you?....good and bad. BJ No, I swallow nothing I have not drawn by my own request, whether I have memory of it, or not at this time. The situations in my life are only mine, and are of my own freewill. I am the creator of this play. I do not have total understanding of everything in the universe. I am evolving. I am also, not very good at putting what IS for me in words. This is where I am at the present. Always choosing love, BJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7869 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Welcome Jennifer wrote: "And Samu, I can't see Sharri on your website. !!**???!" You can't see her at all or the picture appears as a bunch of letters? If so, try hitting refresh/reload... You could also try the direct address http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/Keysters/Sharri.jpg If these don't help let me know, allrightey? :) Have a superb day everyone!!! Samu chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7870 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Who or what are you? Ben writes: "I knew this before I read the first key. So why am I not impressed by any magic Click. Am I missing it all? or was it just that I knew this already?" X: Read the archives of JJ's postings. http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/JJArchives.html He says more. I'm not sure, but I think it might satisfy you. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7871 From: "Darlene Williams" Subject: Re: Who or what are you? Xavier, Thanks for the post regarding j.j.'s archives. I am fairly new to both The Immortal and to this list, so it's been somewhat confusing as to what is available to read that answers some of my questions (Explaining more about Who or What Am I). I'll spend a while doing some more reading. Thanks again. Darlene Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7872 From: Jean Subject: Re: OT WELCOME Ben, I also welcome you to the list. I liked your post earlier that you sent. I can see you will do this list much good. Lets just say I have a pretty good hunch on that. :) Jean My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-26/7873 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: -26 BevSalzman@aol.com BJ and sending lo When sending any kind of "helpful" energy, I add in a little prayer of "if this be for the greatest good of all concerned". That prayer allows my own higher self and the Masters to adjust the distribution of energy in ways my rational brain can't see or comprehend. It is quite possible that what has befallen another man is his choice as the main lesson in this life time. It's one thing to offer aid to those in pain, but it would be disastrous to rob them of the opportunity of a life time. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com eat a natural diet http://www.neanderthin.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-27/7874 From: "Terrance R. Brennan" Subject: ? for JJ: Correct use of sex energies for gays? Hi JJ and List members. You've written that the correct use of money, sex, and power is any activity that produces more union. Well, in the earlier chapters of the Molecular Relationship we've learned that under the right conditions a male and female can unite on the mental, emotional, and during orgasm, on the physical levels (assuming my understanding is correct--I'm hoping you'll correct any of my misinterpretations). The two become one flesh (kind of). Since the male and female genitals were made for sending and receiving respectively, straight couples can potentially share energies on all 3 levels, enjoying the highest of unions. It is also my understanding that sharing on the mental and emotional levels is possible among 2 or more males or 2 or more females (as in friendships). But in gay relationships the genitals don't 'fit' together, therefore excluding gays from union on the physical level. Taking all this into consideration I can only conclude, then, that gay sex can't possibly be a correct use of sex energy since the act can't produce union. Yet I experienced something recently that would prove otherwise. Passing another man in a grocery store our eyes happened to meet and *ZAP*--my breathing caught; it was like time stood still. I could have been gawking there for an hour for all I know, until I finally came back to myself. In the Immortal you described a similar experience when the character JJ met Elizabeth. That your soul put forth a charge of energy to you both indicated that a relationship--and later marriage--was the correct way to proceed. My question is this: Why would my soul (if that's what it really was) send forth a charge of energy if sex among gays is an incorrect use of sex energy? Sorry everyone, I know this may be a touchy subject, and we barely had time to settle down from the last upheaval, but this is important to me and probably others. Thanks. Rob P.S.--If anyone has posted a message to me lately, and I haven't responded it's because I accidentally erased all my email. I don't know who wrote what to whom. Still getting used to Yahoo's email program. Please post again. Thanks. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7875 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: All Welcome Thanks to all for the unexpected and warm welcome. I'd thought I would just slip without drawing attention to myself (that much). Please note that although I may want to thoroughly investigate assumptions (my own as well as others) and what others see as givens or knowledge, especially when I see that differently, (and I will leave no stone unturned,) I don't mean to tear people apart, so please do not take it personally. The highest knowledge is what I seek. When I find truth through experience somewhere that upsets my "knowledge", I adjust my knowledge. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7876 From: "Anni West" Subject: Welcome Ben Hi Ben and all It sounds to me that you will fit right in, Ben :-)) Here we all try to get confirmation form within before swallowing any truth. So welcome also from me - I enjoyed your previous posts very much. Love to all Anni the sheep (who loves to be fed) ;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7877 From: Laura Subject: Re: ? for JJ Rob, That's a really good question, and I look forward to seeing JJ's response. Here's my thoughts on the matter and please keep in mind that I - being the bad girl I am - have not read all of the archives yet so I don't have that to back me up at this moment. Physical contact and physical melding during orgasm or an orgasmic experience does not necessarily require a male-female union. I would think the skin against skin contact would be enough for the union and the illusion or reality (I don't know which it is, I've never experienced it) of being 'one flesh'. The one flesh theory or way of looking at union, relationships and energy transfer seems to me that it is more of a theoretical way of looking at the relationship than it is a _literal_ way of looking at the relationship. That 'one flesh' in truth means that your vibrations at that point are just so freaking high that you're both about to blow the top of your heads off *no pun intended* and it gets to a point where - low and behold - your energies meld together, your vibrations match up and it's as if you're breathing as one being, thinking and feeling as one being and your souls become one. Time stands still as the glory, the joy and the sheer madness of this energy envelopes the two of you, and you are - for a brief moment of time - one living, breathing flesh. This would go for gay/str/bi couples. I would venture to say that it may even be possible - with patience and practice - to be achieved through a menage e' tois.. okay, I know I spelled that wrong here people, work with me. :) When the people involved are sincerely looking and actively working towards union, when the love is there and when their hearts and souls are lost in the act, yeah, gay straight or bi it is very possible to form one flesh. It may or may not happen the first or second time it's attempted, but with practice.. and the practice is fun in and of itself.. *ahem* but with practice, it can be achieved. Now let me throw one more thing in the ring here. Transfer of energy and the waves of orgasm do not need naked sexual genital contact to happen. Honestly. There are many ways to achieve it, and two people physically touching each other - like holding hands and what not - and meditating could probably form such a one flesh as well. This would take lots of practice and some fine tuning. But I do know that the energy of orgasm doesn't just come from sex, so I can't see how the Union and one flesh could come from just sex. Let me give you an example and then I'll stop rambling, K? I'm a musician.. kinda. Certainly not of Rick's caliber, but hey, what are you gonna do? *winks to Rick* And music, well... music brings forth emotions and energies within me that I've noticed doesn't happen to other people. A well thought-out song or a symphony performance or even a recording of an opera or musical will absolutely set my soul afire. Energies that are as powerful - or at least just about as powerful - as orgasm rack my body as I hear and perform. It's magical, it's amazing and it is so blessed. Point being, sexual contact is not the only way to achieve union. Often times it's one of the more fun ways to do it *giggle* but for those of us without working partners in the physical realm, we must devise ways to keep ourselves amused on our own. LOL Okay, I'm going to go before I get in trouble here :) Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7878 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re BJ, sending Love and ..In taking responsibility for myself as an ..individual, there is nothing outside of me ..that has influence. Baloney. Everybody influences everybody. The environment influences people. Where did you get the idea you were an island? How have you been able to maintain that thought? Maybe you aren't aware or conscious of how people influence you yet. ..In taking responsibility for myself as an ..individual, there is nothing outside of me ..that has influence Baloney.If you take responsibility for yourself you will take (and deal with) whatever is thrown at you and take a good look at yourself (and deal with yourself) ...Only that which I directly call for in my life. Sorry honey. Lots of things happen in life with being asked (consciously) to happen. You have chance, Karma, and the explicit desire of others to do, experience, etc. If another person sees you, and likes you, he may choose to become a stalker. Why you? maybe karma,(something you have to deal with from previous lives) maybe a bonus learning chance. maybe it is your turn to be the innocent bystander who gets squashed. ..I don't feel that sending love or light is ..trying to influence, any more than ..what the sun does when it shines on us. It is ..an energy that is neutral.. If it is neutral it would have no value and you would not want to send it. You are trying to influence for the better. ...My actions and intentions will bring situations to me Yes this is Karma. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7879 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: I'm sending this out broadcast because I know all of you want to know the details. I will send personal later, sorry if you get this and are not that close of a friend to be involved in my personal life. Most people know I left Boise, ID at 7pm Tuesday and drove straight through to Oklahoma City. It took me 32 hours, (4 of which I slept) and the trip-omider said 2300 miles. Which gives me an average speed of 82 mph which is very accurate. I arrived in Okc at 4 this morning. Got a shower in a truck stop and parked myself in Misty's driveway at 6am. At 7:30 I went to knock on the door and found a note that said we are at Baptist Hospital. I didn't know where that was. I went to the wrong one first then was redirected to Baptist. As I'm walking to the ER Misty's dad, my ex, pulls around the corner to tell me Misty had the baby girl at 6:36 am. Alexandria Nichole Jones is my brand new grand-daughter. She weighs 7lbs 9oz and is 20 inches long. She looks like her dad. Misty had a very easy delivery and she is in great shape. Her baby looks very big compared to her. Misty is 5'3 and weighs 93lbs if she's wet. I am a grandmother! Sorry if this is too personal for some of you. I don't want to take the time to pick people off the list. From here on out I will sent personally. Pictures as soon as I can. Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7880 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Bj , sending Love and influencing ...The switch is in our mind. Where is your mind located? Where in your mind is the switch. ..It is where we make a conscious choice for the experiences we wish to draw to us. I agree that you can consciously draw things towards yourself. ..We have the control. This is our power. Do not be deceived that you are a lesser being. I'm not but that doesn't mean I believe your love does it all, love is the answer sweet attitude, especially since you don't even know how love does it, where the mind is, how it functions, etc. ...You do not need to guard against yourself and what is in every fiber of your being. If people can be and I'm stating that they are influenced by people, emotions of groups, atmosphere emanating from object around them, even from nature, then it becomes vital to know how this works, and how to prevent this. I know I'm giving you a hard time, but with reason. ...You will not bring harm, unless that is what you desire to radiate, and that is what another entity is drawing forth. I don't agree with you and see no reason to change my idea about that. I know it is not the worst thing to wish to another being. But you are still doing it without their request, and violating that person's free choice. A. people can and do influence each other. Most don't even realize this because they aren't very aware of it. If you are not very good at putting things in words practice voicing your feelings. This will force you to take responsibility for your feelings and emotions. BTW, this is a typical 5th chakra thing. Let me do something constructive. The human aura can filter negative emotions if it functions correctly. In 90 percent of all people it does not function correctly. It can keep out the bad and let in the good to that person only. Because the aura doesn't function correctly, the Chakras have to close to defend the person. If you are in close proximity, you are inside the human aura, and it cannot protect you either. This means practically that when somebody treats you by giving you Reiki, for instance, this can influence you very strongly. If a person of lesser vibration treats another of higher vibration, this will usually lead to the client feeling sick afterwards. Also practically, the fact that the 90 percent of people not having a protecting aura can easily be influenced by sending energy from a distance. The purity of the person sending and their intentions will determine the outcome. I personally know of one person who flipped out and went into a psychosis because of good intentions of people sending Reiki and a little more. He had just had some therapy a few days ago, gone through an intensive weeklong course, and then the Reiki. It happened. No kidding. It was not a fun experience for him and it took a lot of time and energy to "fix" this. So what is the solution? 1. Don't send people reiki, love or anything without explicit request and consent. 2. Set your aura around you daily, and make sure it is functioning properly. (not my strongest point) 3. If you wish to help humanity, send your energy to humanity in general. BTW the information about previous lives that are like packages of karma waiting to be worked out (activated) are in the fifth layer of the aura. Regards, Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7881 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Rick reply Hi Rick, My first healing teacher used to stress this kind of phrase, and more like this: Make contact with your higher self first, then with the higher self of the cust/client. Request permission to help/ aid/ send. Request that this only occur if it is good for the person involved. Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7882 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re: Laura and Clicks Decision did no such things for me, I just got a feeling like, oh yes, ofcourse, the same old hat. Decision, the action of taking responsibility. Not letting your life run its own course if you dont like it the way it. Yes like you said, it takes will and desire before the decision is taken. Usually you will find the will, but not the realisation that they can change their own life. This realization was present years ago, when I wanted to change my life Regards, Ben Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7883 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: Re : repeating list Yes i have that as well, and also this strange thing that people can answer to something I post before it is published. Strange. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7884 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Correct Use of Sex Terrance, your post was not offensive at all, in fact, i really appreciated it, we are very close with several gay couple's and i have been wondering the same thing. some couple's have extremely close and loving relationships, other's like a lot couples are just sort of together. seeing these close committed couples i have often wondered how their relationship could be considered anything but 'right'. So, thanks for asking a question that can benefit us all. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-28/7885 From: "Ben Meijer" Subject: First principle of synthesis Rick Hi Rick It may be a little late, but here is my thoughts .... If you respect life you will realize that killing is a no-go, and if you have to as little as possible. Is it necessary to kill animals to live? In my view it is a luxury to eat meat. Have you ever killed the animal you ate yourself? That in my opinion is a good way of taking responsibility for your actions. If you plead that plants are alive, yes they are but they are not equal to animals. You take life. Even though this may sound rather drastic pro veggie, I'm not a fanatic. I believe in o