1999 - WEEK 40 Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7395 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: the White Rose Principle John Wayne Kline wrote: "I'm in the process of putting a group together in my area, but it's going to take some time, in the Bible Belt of the Ozarks." That's wonderful news, John! The NZ Synthesis Group members often ask me when the next group is going to start and it would be great to see a few more up and running before Christmas. If it's any help, I've received so many emails over the past five years or so (since I've had internet access) from people who say they live in the Bible Belt and find it tough going that I've often wondered why they don't get together. My impression is that there are lots of people in every area who are seeking after Truth so don't let the perceived difficulty become daunting. One of the reasons I left it so long to start a group was because my home town, Wellington and NZ's capital city, is renown for its conservatism and lack of interest in spiritual matters. Everyone in NZ knows that if you want to start anything, it is best to give Wellington a miss to avoid certain failure. In the past, I had tried to organize spiritual workshops and seminars here with well known overseas speakers and interesting topics and simply couldn't get the numbers. So my hopes weren't high for being able to generate sufficient interest in a SG. But I decided nothing ventured, nothing gained and I found to my surprise that there *were* seekers living here just waiting for something like the SG to be formed. I'm even thinking about starting a second one or doing more formal classes in one of our community colleges next year if I can get my act together. So don't let being in a conservative area deter you; in my experience true seekers reside everywhere. Good luck! Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand. - Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7396 From: Marylin Subject: Re: FBardon Paul Yu writes: "We are all teachers and students within ourself. Only when we believe that we are both teachers and students within ourself could we learn as students from ourself as all- knowing teachers. We are both duality and oneness at the same time." Hi Paul You just gave us a beautiful example of duality. I kept looking at it in terms outside of myself, but you just brought it all together for me. Thank you. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7397 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Dark Molecules Lynne " Hi Lynne. Here is the song. We thank you, Father, that you have revealed to us, your protective universal Light. That within this Light is complete protection from all destructive forces. That the holy Presence of Your Spirit permeates us in this Light, And where ever we WILL the Light to descend. *** We thank you, Father, that you fill us with your protective fires of Love. That within this Love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings. That the consciousness of Christ is lifted up in us in this Love, And where ever we WILL the Love to be enflamed. *** We thank you, Father, that You are in us, and we are in You. That through us, Your WILL is sent forth on Wings of Power. That Your Purpose IS accomplished on earth, AS it is in Heaven. That through us, Your Light, and Love, and Power, is manifest to all the sons and daughters of mankind. Sing your heart out and savor every word. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7398 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Auld Lang Syne John Will you tell me the story of the White Rose? Jennifer "Each of us, among many other things, can find part of our recent past within the History of the White Rose, but that's another story." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7399 From: "Yvonne Pisz" Subject: Answer To Rick "John, I, for one, would like to know of any scriptures that counter the claims of these so called christians. My own daughter has recently been attracted to one of these churches, by her best friend. We have had several debates already and I tell her of how the Bible has been twisted around to mean other than what it's authors intended and that she needs to read everything on the subject, before jumping to conclusions.Rick" Hi Rick, As I'm sure you are aware, the claims put forth by the popular church are deeply entrenched, and by appearances seem to be almost too large to tackle. After all, the debate over biblical interpretation is one of the oldest surviving arguments in human history. But just as we can decipher the validity of "facts" by understanding "principles", so too can we decipher the validity of "claims", which seem to be based on factual "verses", by applying Spiritual principles, and allowing the balancing verses to rise to the surface. Far less than the behemoth monstrosity they call "truth", in the light of True principles, the claims of these half truthers will usually crumble of their own unbalanced weight. Now, I am assuming that you are referring to the claims regarding the rapture of the church, so I will attempt to address just that. But it should be noted that this same type of approach works to bring Truth from every false claim that is made by the half truthers. First off, those who claim to believe in the literal interpretation of the bible will rarely proclaim, if they even know, that the word "rapture" never once appears in the bible. Of course this doesn't disprove the claim in and of itself, but at the least it begins to bring in some clarity. So what is the scripture upon which the interpretation is made? Here it is: 1 Thes 4:16-18 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV) "caught up together with them in the clouds". This is the reference that has had so much built up around it. The entire doctrine of a pre, post, or mid-tribulation "rapture" of those who are in Christ is formed from this singular statement of Paul. Interestingly, there is no other verse in scripture that mentions this particular event. And yet it is held up as one of the greatest hopes of the "saved". Yet still, this doesn't disprove the doctrine. It only points the way to a better understanding. Now in discussing this particular subject with a proponent of the doctrine, I would ask, What was it that Paul was responding to when he penned this statement? Most would simply replay the party line about the "removal of the church, prior to God's great judgment upon the earth". The implication being that God will evacuate the coast before sending the storm. And I'd ask, Is this the real reason Paul had for this writing? Is THIS what he was responding to when he established this "doctrine"? Most, in order to stay consistent, would say yes. And so, I present to you the context of the statement: 1 Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV) Here it's pretty clear that what Paul was referencing was simply a misunderstanding amongst the early believers that only those who were alive when Christ returned would be taken to be with the Lord. A rather simple error that was apparently the cause of some sorrow among the living. Simply stated, Paul said, you needn't worry about those who have died "in Christ", they won't be left out. But remember, a DOCTRINE is a well entrenched belief. And so, they will still stand on the "caught up together with them in the clouds" statement as their established "witness". But what does it take to establish a doctrine according to scripture? Well, let's see: Matt 18:16 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (KJV) 2 Cor 13:1 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (KJV) Heb 10:28 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (KJV) So first we see that the intention of the verse has been taken out of context. Then we see that the entire doctrine is based on only one statement within the very scriptures which proclaim that two or three witnesses are needed to establish every word. Once again, this doesn't disprove the claim, but its foundation is starting to look a little hazy. I would say here that it's not my intention to disprove the scriptures, but only the illusory interpretation which I believe has lulled many in the popular "church" into the very complacency that JW Kline has been addressing. (BTW, to John I'd like to say thanks for sharing your thoughts and expressive ability. You are certainly a powerful voice for the cause of Truth.) Rick, I'm sorry this response has taken so long, but being away from home I don't have my usual reference material at hand. As for addressing those who are a part of the popular church, I have found that the only way to cut through the rhetoric is to view the fruit of a particular doctrine, and then to bring clarity from the very scriptures that they believe fortify their positions. I'm glad to finally complete this response, and am open to helping anyone who must confront those who are from the popular church. With Love and Blessings, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7400 From: Laura Subject: Re: Soul Contact? Mark, Let me relate to you my own personal experience and perhaps it will help you understand soul contact a bit more and how easily it can be overlooked. When I first started reading this list, I wanted desperately to be a part of this higher plane - a spiritual awakening that we bring my consciousness up on a higher level that would help me understand who I am, why I'm here and what it is that my life is to accomplish. Just a few short weeks after I began posting here, I was contacted by John (Shyama), who - for lack of a better word - coached me into realizing that soul contact was not some sort of unattainable goal that I need to work toward, but instead is something that was born inside of me long ago that I had either dismissed or forgotten. I'm always open to new ideas and usually don't dismiss anything right away, so I kept his words in mind - despite my slight doubts - and did my best to once again listen to that small still voice. It's funny, Mark, but once you finally recognize which of those many internal voices is your soul (at least, I tend to have many disagreeing voices within me), that small still voice is almost never confused with anything else again. Once you lock in on that target you can't lose it.. So the story continues.. Oh, yes, I was kinda doubting my ability to have soul contact. So I'm thinking over Shyama's emails to me for the day as I'm riding the bus home. I was actually reading the book "What is Your Mission in Life?" at the time as well, and I put the book down for a moment and began thinking about Doubting Thomas. Out of the Blue and clear as day my thoughts turn to that precious apostle who questioned even what he saw before his own eyes. The next day, Shyama had mentioned in his email *something* about Jesus and Thomas and I said, "Funny thing you mention that.. I was thinking about Doubting Thomas on my way home yesterday." Well, the thing is, Shyama was trying to send me the words 'Doubting Thomas' to test my receiving abilities the day before and it had come through as clear as a bell. Amazing! So now I listen to that voice.. often. It has urged me to make some major life changes and will continue to do so in the future until all of the chains binding me to the 'personality' as JJ calls it, or the physical plane, are cast off. My points would be, then, Mark: 1. Do not doubt your ability to achieve and maintain soul contact. You have the power, even if you haven't realized it or seriously practiced it yet. 2. The soul generally (and this is the kicker) only speaks once. It will speak softly. It will speak what you know to be true, then it will SHUT UP. Try not to get so bogged down with rationalizations and logical thinking that you muffle the words of the soul. Truly, the soul speaks clearer to the quiet, still mind, than the chattering mind. (LOL - although being a Gen Xer with an attention span like I've got, my mind is pretty chatty, too) Hope this helps! Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7401 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Dark Molecules Marylin writes: "That the holy Presence of Your Spirit permeates us in the Light," Hi again Lynne Please excuse my booboo. That should read: That the Holy Spirit of your Presence permeates us in the light, Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-03/7402 From: J J Dewey Subject: Rapture Always glad to hear from the two Johns. John K, glad you weren't blown away by the hurricane down there and John W your admonitions even make me take stock of myself. We indeed do have a great opportunity here. Some will recognize it and act, other will recognize not and not act (or initiate). Then others will not recognize it. Concerning the rapture. Modern Christian are completely deceived about it and the type of rapture they are expecting will not happen. What do you suppose Jesus would do with millions of born againers if He had them. They'd be too busy arguing with each other to listen to any higher teachings of the Master. Paul and many others thought that the day of the Lord's coming was very near. For instance he said: "WE (Paul and others) which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord..." I Thess 4:15 These early Saints expected Jesus to come and save them from the great persecutions which were forthcoming and because the time was short, and the message of Christ had to be spread abroad before he appeared, the early leaders thought it best that the saints should not marry, but totally dedicate themselves to spreading the word. The injunction to not marry was a temporary one due to the circumstances of the time. This teaching of the early leaders was not without foundation for Jesus told his disciples: "Verily I say unto you, There be some (more than one) standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom." Matt 16:28 These early saints believed that the 144,000 would be a group of Christians who would be taken by the Lord. Actually, there is some historical evidence that such a saving event did happen and it was recorded by none other than the respected historian, Josephus. He recorded a second coming of Christ on May 30, 73 AD: "Besides these, a few days after the feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month -Artemisius, a certain marvelous and incredible phenomenon appeared. I suppose what I am going to tell would seem a fable, were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the sad events that followed it deserving of such signs. Before sunset chariots were seen in the air, and troops of soldiers in their armour running about among the clouds. Moreover, at the feast which is called Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner temple, as was their custom, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that first they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a multitude saying, Let us remove hence." The Jewish War, Book 6, page 106, Chapter 5, section 3. This sounds like an early UFO sighting, but we also have a "multitude" that was removed. Was this Christ appearing with his hierarchy, or Kingdom, as he promised? After all Paul told the saints: "Ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, and the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. To the general assembly and the church of the firstborn which are written in heaven..." Heb 12:22-23 Did members of the church on the earth join with the "church of the firstborn" in heaven? Or is it possible that they were merely transported to a different area for safety? Or did they join Christ and his hierarchy for a period of time? Whatever the case we can see that a fairly literal interpretation was applied to Rev 14:4 in that age. In this age the correspondences still match, but circumstances and consequently the interpretation is somewhat different. Mark writes: "I have what I will call inner urgings to do certain things because it seems or feels right. Is this a direction from the soul or simply an emotional feeling? What else may we do besides saying the Song and meditating that will enhance our ability to achieve soul contact?" The beginnings of soul contact does not start with a bang. It starts with the "still small voice," so still and quiet that you think you are imagining things when you first hear it. It is different than psychic impression which often comes through the astral body. Soul contact comes through the mind and heart (not astral emotions) working as one. The oneness of the mind and heart create a channel. After you pay attention to this contact the ability to recognize and trust it greatly increases, but it always takes a certain amount of faith to follow. The fire of the Spirit is a higher contact that comes in varying degrees but when this comes it is unmistakable and leaves no doubt in your mind hat there was definite contact with the energies of God. This higher contact comes for several purposes. One of the main ones is to give positive assurance that a certain direction is the correct one for you to take. Many will eventually receive this fire to confirm the truth about the Molecular Order and that they are to be a part of it. Then there will be those who have not yet received soul contact or the fire who will be deceived by lower astral fire. If one has not received the higher fire it is easy to conclude that the lower fire is the higher fire. When one receives the higher fire he knows that he has received it and knows that he knows. He can also recognize another who has received it and who is currently open to it. He who has received only the astral fire cannot discern the difference between the two. He believes be knows but does not know that her knows. Many people have their higher contact greatly delayed because of the deception that the astral contact is the ultimate. This keeps them from making the next step because they are not looking for it. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7403 From: "GEOFFREY ELLIS" Subject: Re: prayer request The prayer is an attachment as requested Geoffrey THE PRAYER "We thank you Father that you have revealed to us your protective universal light; that within this light is complete protection from all destructive forces; that the Holy Spirit of Your Presence permeates us in this light, and wherever we will the light to descend." "We thank you Father that you fill us with your protective fires of Love; that within this love is complete protection from all destructive thoughts and feelings; that the consciousness of Christ is lifted up in us in this love, and wherever we will the love to be enflamed." "We thank you Father that you are in us and we are in you; that through us Your Will is sent forth on wings of power; that Your Purpose is accomplished on earth as it is in heaven; that through us Your Light and Love and Power is manifest to all the Sons and Daughters of Mankind." Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7404 From: "GEOFFREY ELLIS" Subject: Re: The prayer without attachment Editors Note: Repeat post of No. 7403 Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7405 From: Rick Audette Subject: [Fwd: [spiritweb-listop] SpiritWeb Needs You: New Topics] Hi All, Rene sent this post to all the list operators on Spiritweb. He is looking for some help to improve the services at our home base. Since our list has such a wonderful home at Spiritweb and we have such a diverse collection of talents, among us, I thought some of you might like to help him out with his project. Your servant, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. ----------------- Dear list-op (to all list ops), This is a request you might consider for yourself, or particular individuals you know might help, or forward it to your list in case you think within your audience I could find assistance. Hi, I do have a request to all subscribers, I'm heading to finish the redesign of SpiritWeb, and part of it that aprx. 100 new sections will be opened, since I'm already fully engaged implementing new features and won't have time to write intros for all those new section (some exist already) therefore I'm approaching you! Concrete, here is a list of new section/topics will be included, maybe 10% of them will drop out again. So my request to you, if you are skilled, experienced and very knowledgeable about a particular topic, then please send me an introduction of that particular topic, three paragraphs (aprx. 10 sentences). Send me it direct to me (Subject: Introduction Proposal: ) (replace with the particular topic you wrote about, email kiwi@spiritweb.org I will collect all intros (even when two or more for the same topic I will edit and compile all). So, here the list of the sections: acim afterlife alchemy alien-cultures angels animals aromatherapy art ascended-masters ascension astral-planes astral-projection astrology atlantis aura avatar awakening awareness ayurveda bible bliss bodywork buddhism celtic chakras channelings christ christianity clairvoyance consciousness counseling creativity crystals death destiny dharma divination dolphins dowsing dreamswork druidism earth energy-work enlightenment esoteric esp essential-oils fairies faith feng-shui flower-essences gnosis god goddess healing-paths herbs hinduism homeopathy huna hypnotherapy immortality joytish kabbalah karma kundalini life light-technology light lightwork lucid-dreaming magick massage meditation merkaba metaphysics mysteries native-American nature-spirits near-death-experience new-age numerology occultism oneness out-of-body pagan paranormal personal-growth philosophy poems prayer prophecy psychic-readings reflexology reiki reincarnation religion retreat revelation rituals romance runes sacred-geometry science self-help self-realization_ seth sexuality shamanism solar-system soulmates sound-healing spiritism spiritual-counseling spiritual-growth spiritual-healing spiritual-travel spiritualism sufism tai-chi tantra taoism tarot telepathy the-soul theosophy trance transformation transpersonal-psychology truth ufos unconditional-love unity veda vibration visualization wicca wisdom witch women workshops world-peace writing yoga-paths zen Thank you for your attention :-) Peace, Rene Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7406 From: Rick Audette Subject: [OT]molecules on my mind Hi All, One of the keys of achieving soul contact and/ or baptism by fire would seem to lie in actively seeking answers to mysteries. Seek and thou shalt find, knock and the door will be open. How often have we been asked to come up with answers to riddles, by JJ and even when we don't all get the right answer, a little more light shines on a principle that no amount of facts could ever have made clearer? In looking back at my own path, I see that some of my most enlightened moments came after I had pushed my brain to the limits to try to understand how something worked. Recently, after looking at JJ's diagrams of molecules, I began playing with trying to picture them in three dimensional crystal forms. The first picture came in a snap. Back in school I scored in the 99th percentile in spatial relationships and have used this talent throughout my life. The master molecule took several hours of work, to get all the connections to work and may still need fine tuning, but I have a good working model and an impressive picture to use as wallpaper on my computer at the office. Now I am working on putting together a pyramid molecule and am wracking my brains out trying to figure it out. My desk is cluttered with sketches and formulas, half finished plastic models, geometry books, and printouts of 3D sketches, modeled in the computer. More than once, I've been tempted to just ask JJ about it, but then what fun would that be. He'd probably just tease me with some more clues anyway. By keeping it in the crucible, I build up pressure that stretches my ring pass not to the limits. When this baby blows, there's gonna be some bright lights. Notice, I'm not showing any pictures this time. I just had to pause from my efforts and say hi to all my friends and invite them to challenge themselves to some unsolvable mystery of their own. Thanks for letting me share, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7407 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: OT -- one more for the sick/injured list Hi all, something I sent from work last Thursday and it bounced back now, thus I'm forwarding... B-dude writes: "Well, I have been nursing a bruised rib since Sunday because I got pasted by the seminar instructor at a sparring seminar over the weekend. And, on top of that, I seem to have stressed myself into some kind of sore throat thing now. ":::::Sigh::::: It's not as though opening night isn't just this Friday. I gotta stop worrying about my stage debut." You do that ~B, I'm sure it will go great, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and am waving my thumbs vigorously high up in the air, cheering!!! :D I too have had some flu-like symptoms for the past couple of days or so, sore throat, headaches, cold, some nausea, weird vibes in my stomach... Don't know if I'm too good sending anything out right now, but Glenys, Susi, ~B and Rick, You are all in my warmest uplifting thoughts... And it is *not* my intention to transmit any of those darn flu bugs!!! Fluflyflaps forever! :D Health and stamina, Samu ******* I am still fighting the flu bug, staying home for the 2nd work day this week... Like Glenys, seems like my infections are in my chest and up. Hope the rest of you great Folks are feeling good, no cough, no splutter! :D Hey ~B, how did your stage debut go? :) chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine... but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso List Archive keys-l: /1999-10-05/7408 From: J J Dewey Subject: Vibrations Glenys, Thank you for writing me about this. For the past couple days I have been receiving a strange vibration from you. What I picked up was that something was bothering you and interfering with your spiritual flow. I did not want to say anything to you that would make you think I did not have faith in you so I tried to figure out what it was. I thought maybe it could have been my mistaken posting, possibly an unresolved disagreement with John or maybe something to do with your relationship with Dave. I was about to write you and ask you what it could be when I opened your e-mail and now I understand. I can sense that this situation is testing your ability to hold your mind centered in the light and your heart in the soul. The situation is pulling on you in a negative direction with great force and you are doing you best to neutralize it, but still it is a test for you. It is quite possible that your friend's higher self has chosen to take her to the other side so she can assist you from there. In the meantime this will serve as a test for you and if you pass through it with the right focus, and your friend dies, shortly after the point of death you will feel her presence and have great joy rather than sorrow. If you approach this in the Spirit you will feel closer to her after death and come to a full realization that in reality there is no separation in death. I'm sure that your friend's personality self wants to live, but you might ask her what her inner self says. Ask her if she feels as to whether or not she is supposed to stay here or go to the other side and help you from there. If she feels that she will be passing then you should pray for a peaceful and quick passing. If her soul feels that this is the best time to take her for her own progress, then even death could be a protection for her from the destructive spiritual forces to come. On the other hand, this is your opportunity to initiate so you have to stay here and overcome all the "fiery darts of the wicked one" as it says in the Bible. I feel for you in this situation, but you must be prepared to accept all things that are beyond your direct control. Miraculous healings are always possible and have seen a number of them, but in each case I was given a go-ahead. I do not feel that authority in this case, but there's always a chance it could change. I will continue to reflect upon it. Love and support, JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7409 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: The Soul Can I respectfully suggest that some of what people are experiencing on this list over the last little while comes from a perceived dichotomy between the teachings in the manner they are presented and the nature of the mind and the soul and the inherent memories stored within the physical body This is not to dispute what JJ has written ... BUT Who owns your soul ..?? I have done much research into the wording of the religious services of Christening and Baptism and within the processes of many I have worked with on a deeper level there is the belief that "the soul is 'owned'" by a church or a mother or father or god mother or god father I feel it is important to take these unconscious memories into account when dealing on this level as what can be produced is a psychosis based on what the mind finds "euphoric" and what the body/soul/unconscious remembers of vows that were taken or made over the infant you Please don't take my word for this but read the sacraments of your childhood church and particularly, the church of Rome. Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7410 From: Anni West Subject: Small still voice? Hi JJ and all, I have a question that I hope somebody will answer. Is it possible that the small still voice talks in pictures instead of words? Love and light to all Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7411 From: "Yvonne Pisz" Subject: Re: Small still voice? "I have a question that I hope somebody will answer. Is it possible that the small still voice talks in pictures instead of words? Love and light to all Anni" Hi Anni, Might I suggest that pictures and words are essentially the same thing? That is, they are both symbols used to communicate information which otherwise has no "material" substance. For me there is no line between the two. There are no words which don't produce pictures, and no pictures which don't produce words within the mind. Perhaps ideally the two are utilized in concert, and those who are especially artistic or adept at mental imagery tend to dwell in the blending of both picture and word. BTW, for the artistically musical, you can add "sound" to the symbols of communication. Many times I have found myself playing music based on the "pictures" which appear in my mind. But essentially I'd say that there are no either or, ors involved here. Only that which one is most skilled in receiving. Hope this paints a clear picture for you. :) Love and Blessings, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7412 From: (Sharon/ Richard) Subject: GLENYS Dearest Glenys, i don't understand all that JJ is refering to, but KNOW that our love and our light is with you always to be used as you see fit. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7413 From: Susi Subject: Re: OT -- one more for the sick/injured list "I too have had some flu-like symptoms for the past couple of days or so, sore throat, headaches, cold, some nausea, weird vibes in my stomach... Don't know if I'm too good sending anything out right now, but Glenys, Susi, ~B and Rick, You are all in my warmest uplifting thoughts... And it is *not* my intention to transmit any of those darn flu bugs!!! Fluflyflaps forever! :D Health and stamina, Samu" "I am still fighting the flu bug, staying home for the 2nd work day this week... Like Glenys, seems like my infections are in my chest and up. Hope the rest of you great Folks are feeling good, no cough, no splutter! :D Hey ~B, how did your stage debut go? :)" Hi All, I'm feeling much better ;-) Actually Friday I felt great like almost all symptoms were gone but then my husband came down with it and passed it back to me for another day on Sunday. I guess it decided it had some unfinished business. Anyway other than the occasional cough my energy level is back up and I feel really good again today. My husband is also feeling better. This being our first cold of the year only lasting a few days and the kids not getting it really wasn't so bad. Thank you all for your kind thoughts. For those of you who are still sick try visualizing the cold (discomfort) moving out of your body. Mine decided to leave by working its way down my body as if an energy doughnut were around me it worked its way down my body starting at my head and left into the earth at my feet. This took two days once I did visualization. I just told myself and this cold that it was not mine, I did not need it and it would have to leave because I did not ask for it......so it left. I told it that it was going to work its way down my body and enter into the earth to be recycled into positive energy and not harm another. This is when it manifested into the doughnut energy and went down like an elevator. While typing this another method came to me which I will try the next time (if there is one) that I feel any discomforts from an illness. I was shown to see the blue light (the source of all that exists) that already flows through us. Look at it and create an energy surge (burst of energy just like electricity can do) that comes into the center of your body, your 'core', and blast the negative energy right out of you in billions of particles. That was the vision but it doesn't sit so well with me because I tend to think that the average person probably could not handle the burst of energy so I caution those who are not familiar with this energy not to use this technique or it could cause more damage than good but for those that are accustomed to feeling, using and loving this energy go for it. I personally would add a spherical shield around me to catch the departing particles and have them slide down the walls of this shield into the earth to be cleansed so as not to send them out randomly floating about to infect another, but that's just my thought process and not part of the vision I initially was shown. In the physical, a nice warm to hot bath depending on your preference for a minimum of 1 hour is also quite cleansing.....take a towel and make yourself a pillow and try to catch a few winks or a great meditation while your at it and many of your symptoms may just wash away. Thank you all for your kindness and have a happy day! Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7414 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: The Soul Greetings to All, Beautiful thoughts Christopher lovingly put forward to us all. Very timely indeed. Thank you for sharing with us.... In love and laughter, ZIA Christopher wrote: "Can I respectfully suggest that some of what people are experiencing on this list over the last little while comes from a perceived dichotomy between the teachings in the manner they are presented and the nature of the mind and the soul and the inherent memories stored within the physical body" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7415 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Small still voice? Greetings to All, Hi Anni, can almost hear your voice asking this question since hearing the recording:) Most definitely does that still small voice speak in pictures. In fact I have found the mind of God to be totally in pictures and released in sound. When viewing past/future events through soul contact not only are there pictures but there are also words, and once spoken and understood more is given. The pictures then focused upon in contemplation provide magnificent understanding, and open many doors in you! What a delight, and welcome to the world of the mystic!! In love and laughter, ZIA "I have a question that I hope somebody will answer. Is it possible that the small still voice talks in pictures instead of words? Love and light to all Anni" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-04/7416 From: J J Dewey Subject: Recognizing Good and Evil I must apologize to Glenys for posting a personal letter to her to the list. Now I know how Rob felt a while back. Her friend Rangi is in a life and death struggle and I have tried to tune into her and at present there seems to be a wall of some kind up preventing me from being of assistance. I would like to help her since she means so much to Glenys and am hoping that the wall is just me or a temporary thing. I would enlist your aid for her. Visualize Glenys and her friend in the NJ and sending her friend healing energy that will either make a nice transition or heal her physically according to the will of God. If any of you get impressions on this I would like to hear them. I see the group is getting a little slack in the postings. Perhaps it is time to give out more questions. Let us go to the subject of good and evil. It is interesting that the men who judged good and evil in Israel were called gods, but it only makes sense when we realize that the key to manifesting God is the ability to judge or "know" good and evil. After all, the Gods said: "Behold, the man is become AS ONE OF US, to know good and evil." Gen 3:22 David was probably referring to the god-judges in Israel when he said: "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth AMONG THE GODS (ELOHIYM)" Psalms 82:1 The word "mighty" is from EL which is usually translated as "God" singular so the verse should read: "God standeth in the congregation of God and judges among the Gods." The Psalms then relates how the men-gods should judge correctly and then says: "Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms 82:6 Jesus quoted this scripture to the Jews who accused him of making himself to be God and then added: "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." why do you complain because I say I am a Son of God? John 10:35 In this scripture Jesus related two important truths. The Psalm called those who received the word of God - gods. Second, "the scripture cannot be broken." In other words, it stands exactly as written. In fact he used this scripture to prove his mission to the Jews. In considering man David said: "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor." Psalms 8:4-5 Again, in the King James and other versions, the word ELOHIYM is mistranslated. In this case it is incorrectly rendered "angels." It should read: "For thou hast made him a little lower than the gods." The scriptures clearly tell us that man was made a little lower than the gods, but will become as the gods when he learns to discern between good and evil. It is only logical that Moses should become as Jehovah, or you and I like Jesus for it is written: "The disciple is not above his master: but everyone that is perfect SHALL BE AS HIS MASTER." Luke 6:40 If Jesus Christ is our master and he is God then we shall be as he is. "The scripture cannot be broken." Jesus said: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev 3:21 If we overcome and sit down in a throne as Jesus did then it only follows that we will be a god as he is. In John's vision those who followed Christ sang: "And (Christ) hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev 5:10 In the scriptures Jehovah is called the "God of gods, and Lord of lords, a mighty, and a great God." Deut 10:17 & Josh 22:22 In addition Christ is called "the King of kings and Lord of lords." Rev 19:16 & 17:14 Christ is the King of real kings as we have just quoted (Rev 5:10) and the Lord of real lords. Obviously, Jehovah is a God of real gods. Surely God would not exalt himself in the claim that he is a god of false gods! Yet this is how most Bible believers interpret this scripture, but if one thinks twice about it he will see that such interpretation is an insult to God. From the evidence we have presented here we see that many beside Jehovah are called gods, and "the God of the whole earth," Jehovah, is a God of these gods who are in the form of men. Since the key to becoming as one of the Gods is to "know good and evil" or good from evil let us as a group tackle this ancient problem and discern the difference. First let us define good and evil. Here is a definition I have given in the past: The basic difference between good and evil is this. Good is that which takes us forward on the path of Spiritual evolution toward greater freedom, livingness, intelligence, light and love. Evil is that which takes us back into the past to lesser freedom, lesser livingness, lesser intelligence, light and love. Evil is the reverse reflection of good, corresponding to the fact that "evil" is "live" reflected in reverse. Hitler was evil because he wanted to take us back into an age of the Kingdoms where the right of the king or dictator was more important than the good of the individual and the whole. Churchill was good because he sought to move us into greater freedom where the individual could work for the good of the whole according to his or her own decisions. Now let us look at the world we have before us. What are the pulls that we have on us going toward good (or evolutionary) and also evil (or pulling us backwards)? Let us examine the following categories Politics Religion/spirituality Education Science Creative Arts/Entertainment Business Healing/Medicine Pick one of these categories and give us the good and evil influences as they are manifesting today. The differences are often very subtle as pointed out by Isaiah who said that people in his day were calling good evil and evil good. They were taking darkness for light and light for darkness. Do you think we are in the same boat today? Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7417 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Small still voice? "Is it possible that the small still voice talks in pictures instead of words?" Sometimes it's like a slide show, only without the monotone narrative! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7418 From: "BlackLeather Rain" Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil "Now let us look at the world we have before us. What are the pulls that we have on us going toward good (or evolutionary) and also evil (or pulling us backwards)? "Let us examine the following categories Politics Religion/spirituality Education Science Creative Arts/Entertainment Business Healing/Medicine "Pick one of these categories and give us the good and evil influences as they are manifesting today. "The differences are often very subtle as pointed out by Isaiah who said that people in his day were calling good evil and evil good. They were taking darkness for light and light for darkness. Do you think we are in the same boat today?" Hmmm... I think you may have picked the right topic to start a conversation, JJ. I'll bite ;) I'll take Healing and Medicine for $600, Alex!!!!!! Okay, so the question would be in relation to Healing and Medicine, which aspects of this topic in modern times reflects your definition of good and your definition of evil (and might I say, I don't particularly care for the definitions, nor for your reason why Hitler was bad.. but that wasn't the question). Well, Medicine in modern times has become increasingly 'good'. Not only because it is becoming increasingly effective, but because it's always moving forward, improving upon itself, much like technology. in this aspect, medicine has become a very, very good thing, because new discoveries are happening all the time and new products are being put out on the market to help heal the sick and aid those in need. However. Medicine is also becoming quite evil in sects, because of the fact that HMOs and some doctors in general decide that once one method works for one person, it will work for everyone and nothing more is necessary. This is a stagnant pool of water, here. Dark, brooding, teeming with icky things and basically something you want to avoid. These HMOs and Doctors have become stagnant and have stopped looking for a better way to heal people. Instead, they concentrate on the bottom line and are in a state of 'being' instead of 'becoming'. Thankfully, medicine as a whole is moving forward despite these problems, and are finally recognizing that treating the whole person - mentally, emotionally, and spiritually through alternative *and* traditional methods - brings about much better results than relying on one method alone. Time proven remedies to ailments are coming back around as the wheel of time makes it turn and technology and alternative/esoteric therapies are pairing in a new, miraculous, and wonderful way! I do believe, though, JJ, that the people in the past that saw light as dark and evil as good will *always* be around until soul contact becomes so common place that anyone from a toddler to a president will know it, recognize it, and be at peace with it. Until that point where the world is at peace and the soul is the preferred authority, there are going to be people that will misinterpret the truth and twist it to fit their own distorted view of life. Perfect example: How many of you have heard the theory that the Holocaust never really happened and is nothing but fictitious inflammatory propaganda created by the Jews? It's a theory. It's not the truth, but many neo-nazis hold that mis-truth to be gospel. It's sick. It's wrong. But it happens. And it is our job to show the world, I assume, that there is a better way to go about all of this. A way to avoid the arguments and the fallibilities of the ego and the personality. The soul is the way, the truth and the life ;) -L Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7419 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Re: Small still voice Darling John, Zia, Brian and all, Thank you so much for answering my question. I do in fact often see a kind of slideshow, Brian! For the last 4 or 5 days I have felt SO depressed, lonely and insecure - I don't know why - and I badly needed your confirmation of my own feelings. I have felt completely worthless and have doubted myself VERY much. Singing the song often has slowly made me feel better, and your responses today made me feel back to normal again! (Maybe my surroundings do not agree - lol - but it sure is good to feel that way again!) Thank you, friends. Either this is the very dark night of the soul or some heavy disturbance in the force :-)) Glenys, love from my heart is flowing your way - I'll keep you in my thoughts all day. I love you, Keysters - thank you for being here. Love Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7420 From: AGiles Subject: Re: OT -- one more for the sick/injured list Hi all Well, guess another one of us bits the dust with whatever is going around. Yup, been feeling worse over theule of days, and today, outright lousy. At least it is good to know it won't last long. Lynne Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7421 From: Susi Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil "Let us examine the following categories Politics Religion/spirituality Education Science Creative Arts/Entertainment Business Healing/Medicine "Pick one of these categories and give us the good and evil influences as they are manifesting today." To pick just one is incredibly difficult for me. My experience has revealed to me beyond a shadow of any doubt that there is 'good' and 'bad/evil' in everything. Examples are also difficult to give as they are 'subtle', the politics gives guidance which is a 'good' thing, but when the guidance is given by a corrupted system it becomes negative or 'evil' and should no longer be trusted as in the authority principle we discussed earlier. Religion/Spirituality can be 'good' as a tool for guidance to the soul if being given by one who is working/teaching/speaking/learning on a soul level, but if it is trusted implicitly a student can be deceived into learning incorrect methods by one who is not in the soul and then becomes a stumbling block 'evil'. Education is 'good' in that it also give guidance which helps increase our communication skills globally, but the USA educational system (the only one I am acquainted with) has become a system producing drones or clones and leaves very little room for experimentation in the k-12 grades and so for me the neg. outway the positive guidance and it has become something 'evil'. Science can also be classified as 'good' because of the many advances it has brought to earths civilization through documented, tried, tested and 'true' experimentations and rationalizations, but not all things can be rationalized and those things that are not tangible are generally thrown out by science (the baby with the bath water?) so in denying these things that can not be explained through logic science can also be classified as 'evil'. Creative Arts/Entertainment, generally this is a 'good' thing because creativity comes from the soul but if there are limits or it is censored then creative freedom is lost and what one has received on a soul level would become distorted also those who are creating from dark aspect of source have the ablity to send their messages out just as the ones creating from the light so this subject also has the ability of 'evil'. Business this is 'good' in that it provides a service or a product, but when that service or product becomes over valued and unavailable to all due to greed it becomes 'evil'. Healing/Medicine this is 'good' because it also provides a service, but in doing so it has become a system that serves itself more than the people it originally intended to. It tells us not to utilize and is attempting through legislature to control natural substances used for medicinal purposes in order to protect the corporate monopoly on synthetic substatuets. It is not available to all on an equal basis so even though it is 'good' in that it heals many it is also 'evil', because it is selective of who and how people are treated. "The differences are often very subtle as pointed out by Isaiah who said that people in his day were calling good evil and evil good. They were taking darkness for light and light for darkness. Do you think we are in the same boat today?" As I've stated before I'm not much for the bible so I don't really know the reference, but yes in my little part of the world I see people mistaking 'good for evil' and 'evil for good' every day. They are rigid and outspoken and judgmental and for the most part these are the people who call themselves devoutly religious and members of the church. This is not all people, not even close in my circle of acquaintances, but outside the people I attract to me, the ones that misunderstand me because of a belief they have or think I am 'evil' because I am a "sensitive" person with visions are corrupted by this 'evil'. I have been told by two Jehovah witnesses that my ability to speak with the spirits and receive guidance from 'God' is an illusion and that I will burn in 'Hell' for this activity. So my summation is that YES people still are mistaking the two or reversing them. On a lighter note the word 'evil' always reminds of Elvis because I liked him, how I get something I like out of 'evil' a word most perceive to conjure up negative thoughts is beyond me, but Elvis makes me laugh and smile....just my twisted sense of humor I guess ;-) Enjoy your day and accept that 'evil' resides in all of us just as in Source, we can not escape it, it is part of our survival instincts.....we kill plants and animals to eat.....yes even the vegetarians kill plants to eat and killing is perceived as 'evil' is it not? So live with it, accept it and never deny it or it will sneak up on you because you will not recognize it. Then it can wreak it's playful havoc. In order for us to recognize the 'good' higher energy of Source we must know the opposite, the 'evil' energy of Source as well. Oh I could go on and on and on but I think I would bore you all. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7422 From: Susi Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil "So my sumastion is that YES people still are mistaking the two or reversing them." Oops! summation not sumastion.....but spelling is not one of my strong points....actually I don't really know what my strong points are other than to LOVE ;-) Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7423 From: "Tracey Hobson" Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil Laura you made me LOL with the ol' "Alex, I'll take for a thousand." I'm always saying that. So I'll take politics, since it is fresh in my mind. I think that maintaining the status quo must be bad, for it does not lend itself to forward progression, change for the better or any of that. In the political arena here in the US right now, there is a senator from Arizona, John McCain, who is running for president and has the Washington establishment in fits because he's really stirring the pot with regard to campaign finance reform, and has been for a while. He is barely on the political radar screen, for reasons I don't understand. One would think that he'd be hailed as a hero in that if the amount of money given a candidate by a special interest group were to be limited by law, it would make the playing field a bit more level. Right now, and this to me is not a good thing, the office of the presidency is for sale to whomever can gather the most money from those in power. This being the case, is not democracy thrown right out the window? Can we call it a democracy when people no longer have the power? I'm no political savant, but it seems rather basic or obvious to me that what Senator McCain is attempting to initiate is GOOD, and that the desire of the Washington establishment to maintain the same ol' same ol' is, well, rather unenlightened, or just downright evil. My $.02... Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7424 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil J J Dewey wrote: "Now let us look at the world we have before us. What are the pulls that we have on us going toward good (or evolutionary) and also evil (or pulling us backwards)? "Let us examine the following categories "Politics" OK, I'm going to take the one I understand best. :) I will also stick to US politics. I'm not familiar enough with other countries to comment. In the US we have 2 major parties. They are both evil. They both want to transfer more power to the federal government, take away more of what the people earn, and make it harder for the people to do anything about it. This type of thing always comes in a nice package. It sure looks like they are going to do some wonderful things, then reality hits and we realize that it's another example of "yet another broken government program" (tm). They really only differ in the rate of decline into evil they wish to use. The Republicans want a slightly slower rate (about 2-5% on average). There are a few other groups that vary slightly from this, they have little power in the US at present. Thus one can conclude that the current state of affairs in the government is that the whole thing is presently evil. Thankfully we still have the ability to fix it, for the time being, by voting (you all ARE going to vote today, right?? And in November... right??). Unfortunately, we have 2 evils to choose from. Everyone always talks about "the lesser of 2 evils" around election time. Of course, this is a myth. One can cast their vote for anyone they wish. But many still believe it and think that if it's not for one of the 2 major parties, you are "throwing your vote away". I still haven't figured out the logic there. The whole point is to voice your views, weather or not you win is quite irrelevant. So we have another pull toward evil in the political system, apathy. To do nothing means you like the way things are going (you're not willing to go vote and change it, you must like it). To vote for someone you don't believe in or agree with is also evil, you are not following the highest you know and causing everyone to suffer as a result. Pulls for good? Not many. There are very few people who believe in freedom in the US it seems. At least that are willing to vote for it. The only group that consistently takes a pro-freedom stance I'm aware of is the Libertarian Party. Others pay lip service to Freedom, then actually take it away. The LP is the only group with elected officials voting like they said they would. There are probably other groups with similar objectives, I don't know of them. And mentioning every small group is impossible since I'm sure I'd miss some. So I'll stick to the major groups. The LP is the 3rd largest party in the US IIRC. I think that's good for starters, I'm sure it will happen, so "Let the flame wars begin!". As for myself, I should mention my bias, as if it were not obvious. I am a card carrying member of the LP. I've also painted with a very broad brush, but it was necessary since I was only given 2 options: good and evil. "The differences are often very subtle as pointed out by Isaiah who said that people in his day were calling good evil and evil good. They were taking darkness for light and light for darkness. Do you think we are in the same boat today?" Yes, many issues are very hard to see for what they are. And people look at the same facts and see something else entirely. To stick to politics and give what I see as an example I'll use Abortion. I will try to objective here and not relate my view on the matter for the sake of discussion. There are 2 sides, I'll try to summarize the basic standpoints. Pro-Life: Want to make Abortion illegal. Reason: It kills a child, or new life. Thus it removes its' right to life. They equate this with Murder, in all circumstances. Pro-Choice: Want to keep the government out of it. They say it should be the mother's choice since it's her body. The child is not considered to be a human life yet and as such it is not murder. Sometimes it depends on the stage of the development of the child (1st trimester abortion is ok, 3rd is not). Both sides can say they are for freedom. One for the unborn child, one for the mother. So, who is right? This is a very polarized topic, and often invokes Flame wars because of feeling- centered emotional knee-jerk responses. I've tried to stick to the facts without imparting opinion. If you're going to respond please try to keep to debate style argument. I don't want to give the list a baptism of fire. ;) I'll keep my flamethrower in the closet if you will. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/ From: "* Zia" Subject: Molecular Order Greetings to All, Just came back from another journey into consciousness, with such a clear and beautiful understanding. I understood the pyramid as a time machine. While traveling this is what I gained. Science now knows that matter is actually frequencies of energy pulsating, and there is no solidity to matter. We have discussed the joining as one, the male and the female to become an atom, or a cell. I reflected on this joining, and looked at the creation of our own bodies. The sperm (+) charge and the egg (-) charge join together and become one cell. This one cell multiplies, creating our magnificent bodies, which have no solid structure, but are simply at the minutest level energy frequencies pulsating. Now what then occurred was to realise the joining of the two grown bodies, male and female, to become one, atom (cell) that would multiply, becoming the body of a much greater being.... the molecular order as we now call it. We are enacting the dance of creation of a life, and thus creating a 'greater life form' as well. This interconnectedness mirrors through our universe into greater and greater lives, as union of that simple energy (+-). Union... U=you n=and i=I and on+one.... you and I one!! In that oneness we truly become and create all that is!! Salute to the molecules of life!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7426 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Vibrations Greetings to All, And to you Glenys, my heart is totally with you, and your beloved friend. I too have a dear dear friend Robin striving to hold to life, and create the miracle of healing within her body. She was diagnosed with non-specific cancer to the abdomen... as told before on the list. She was a part of the list for quite awhile. Two weeks ago she underwent an emergency operation, called a miracle operation.... her lungs had filled with fluid, from the cancer (perhaps washing out of the body), and the doctors literally cut a hole in the lungs and allowed draining. In speaking to her days later.. she was still the bright and shining golden Robin I have always known... and just taking it as another step in the direction of life. I continue in the healing thoughts for my beloved friend, and realise that all of us, are in the process of healing in so many ways. I hold all of you on the list, and your beloveds in 'health and radiant vitality', that this does indeed become your true reality in line with your soul purpose. The choice of course, is always up to us. Life is a joy, and so too are all the coming adventures on all levels of consciousness! Love to you Glenys, ZIA ps It is a challenge with those we hold so dear to our hearts, to simply love and let go placing that beautiful picture of radiant health and vitality into the arms of God for our beloveds, and God's perfect healing. It is a time of surrender. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7427 From: (Sharon/ Richard) Subject: Good and Evil Good & evil, pick, one and explain what is evil about it and what is good. OK, not knowing a whole lot about any of the subjects, but having opinions on everything, I'll pick education. Specifically, education here in the US of A, The state of Kansas, has forbidden the teaching of evolution in the schools there. Allowing only the teaching of creationism (is that a correct word). The evil in that is the danger of the truly backward thinking, and the desire to limit children's knowledge. Knowing that increasing children's knowledge on every subject is the only answer to overcoming the mounting problems our children are facing. Now to the good in this, it has brought this to the attention of the whole U.S and beyond. Recognizing a problem is the first step to overcoming it. Love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7428 From: Jean Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil Well the category I pick would be religion/spirituality. It can be good and evil. Good for the fact that it opens up a door for people to advance in learning to ....BECOME>>> it is bad because some religions hold people back from the true light by making them feel guilty, making them believe what they want them to believe and sometimes it can be an endless struggle for man to try to "outdo" one another. What I mean by that is if you look at politics, business, religion and more, many people try to show off how much they know, for all the wrong reasons it creates EGO and PRIDE.... I could probably go on and on but I will stop there for now. What are all your thoughts on that? In light, Jean Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7429 From: Jean Subject: Re: OT -- one more for the sick/injured list What is the deal with the cold/flu/sinus bug...mine started acting up yesterday and is worse today.... My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7430 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: the White Rose Principle Greetings to All, Thank you John Wayne :) for sharing your beautiful thoughts on the White Rose. I had questioned you about this because of an experience I had seemingly so long ago! I was told to 'become the rose' and went about this in the best way I knew how. Not only to focus in mind on the rose, but every lunch hour from work in Australia, I would go to New Farm Park, where there were thousands of roses kept in magnificent cultivation. I would walk amongst them, studying them, seemingly looking for the 'perfect' rose. I smelt so many each day, I would return to work in the afternoon quite intoxicated from all the glorious scents, and with great images in my mind. Finally while in Hawaii, I was in a meditation/focus and suddenly Jesus was standing in front of me, with a beautiful white rose in his hand. He held it out to me, and as I reached to take it I dropped it, and bent down to pick it up. Next thing I was the rose... a splendid white rose, watching the sun crossing the sky, feeling myself moving with the sun, feeling its warmth and radiation, feeling the rain yet still seeing the sun... and in those moments I knew the rose completely. I learnt from this that I could become anything, and thus in becoming it know it totally. One thing that is so splendid about the rose, is that when it finally opens in totality, at its center is the glorious golden crown... fit for a King! May your life be graced with roses and roses, and as they open feast your eyes on that golden crown of life, at the center of life. Perhaps this would be the best gift to give each of you on the list, and in the intoxicating smell, the beauty of the color of the rose, and its sudden revealed treasure of the crown, would bring each one of you into perfect health, wealth and happiness!! Love to you all, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7431 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: good and evil "the beginning" Hi guys, When I think of the good and evil thing I always go back to Adam and Eve. Some would consider her actions bad or evil because it took us all away from The Source. However, it was necessary. I'm thinking of the phrase, "It is necessary for us to pass through evil so we may be able to discern the good from the evil." The Tree of Life has the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Isn't that our life today? Isn't our whole human existence the experience of good and evil? Our life is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. The Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We participate (eat) in life (the fruit) from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (life). We eat the fruit of life. If the fall of Adam never happened, we would never taste the fruit. We would never know the difference between good and evil. If the question is then, what is good about a particular thing like business, the answer would be the same either way, "The Experience". The fruit is why we're here. I can learn from your experience if I am wise but I have to experience evil for myself to be able to recognize it's signature. You can tell me an apple is sweet and crunchy but I can only make a comparison (or truly know it) if I've personally had the experience of eating one myself. Evil is real, good is real-er. I like experience. I like fruit. I like being able to know good and evil. Radiating light in Idaho, Lorraine PS I realy am shining brightly lately. I've been amazing myself. :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7432 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil Greetings to All, I have selected business for my topic of viewing good/evil. Having worked in many businesses, for myself and others, I sought to find a business that would have as it foundations the principles of the universe, and therefore increase its success. What I discovered in most businesses world wide, was that the creator of the business, took the maximum percentage for himself, and shared a very minimal percentage with the others that did the work within the organisation, yet gained the least amount. Thus it could be viewed that those working for another in this situation were more like slaves gaining a pittance that kept them locked into service to a very small group's or singular person's increasing wealth. When I asked to find a business that was in harmony with my own spiritual growth, and would also provide an ongoing wealth to continue my growth, a splendid company called Delfin International landed on my doorstep. In checking this out, the creator of this company, worked on the principle of giving maximally to receive. And so he chose to give 80% gross profit to those working for his organisation, also gave them the freedom of having a home based business, and took only 20% towards his own organisation. What I saw as 'good', was he understood giving would return a great abundance to him, and provide for all of us to be able to continue whatever lifestyle we chose, and also our personal growth as well. I am still quite taken with his concept, and the number of very rich individuals within the organisation that continually turn around and give to others, thus perpetuating this well known principle of abundance and wealth. This is not a multi level marketing concept either, and so there is great freedom built into its operation. I have found that how we make the money, how we use it, and how we give back to others, of vital importance in creating perpetual wealth for all. If there was something of great benefit, it is this, for we are still within a money oriented society. So creating a business that creates a bountiful wealth for all, rather than bountiful wealth for one... lands on the side of good, if we are choosing sides!! Yet, it really has nothing to do with sides, it is the underlying principle that has guaranteed its success!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7433 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Rangi J J Dewey wrote: "I must apologize to Glenys for posting a personal letter to her to the list. Now I know how Rob felt a while back." No problem, JJ. It's hard to see it as an mistake considering the many, many emails of support and love I've received for Rangi, both on and off list. It was obviously meant to be for the love of everyone here has buoyed her up considerably. Rangi is a lifelong friend; she a widow with no children and I'm the only person who she thinks of as family. I have a good 'nose' for death but I don't sniff it around her despite the fact that her health has taken a dismal turn for the worst during the past couple of weeks. But even so when her doctor telephoned me last night to warn me to prepare myself for the worst - and very soon at that, I did send an SOS to JJ because I sensed there were strong forces at play. She was admitted to hospital today and will know the diagnosis tomorrow after a barrage of tests. It is my feeling that she will recover but will need several months to recuperate. She is in a great deal of pain but that has abated somewhat as I ranted and raved at the hospital doctors until they agreed to give her four hourly doses of morphine. I think they were quite relieved when I came home for a break and to let Rangi rest although they're in for a shock because I'm just about to go back to the hospital to check up on them! :-) Rangi is a greatly loved key member of the Synthesis Group ie she makes the supper afterwards. So she has a strong link to the Keys list which she cherishes. She loves it when I tell her about you all and sometimes I print off your emails for her to read. I have lost count of the number of times she has read The Immortal and the Song seems to run through her head and heart on a constant basis, almost like a mantra. I know she would want me to thank you on her behalf for all your assistance. When I told her about all the messages of support she cried tears of gratitude and relief that so many people who didn't know her were uplifting her. I would imagine that the next 48 hours are critical for her and I'll keep you posted. Thank you again for being such wonderful friends - you're all great! Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and can sing it back to you when you have forgotten the words. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7434 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil Okay, my two cents on Healing/Medicine, On the evil side, I see ads on TV, all the time, for new drugs. Most of them have disclaimers, at the end, that tell you that this drug has side effects that are almost as bad as the illness itself. Has the FDA sold out? Is the profit of the drug companies more important than our health? AIDS research is BIG business. Somebody wants us to fear it, but the truth is, so far it hasn't killed as many people as die in a single year from malaria, caused by mosquito bites. Cancer used to be the big money maker, but now we know of so many ways to cure it that it's not the cash cow it was. There are lots of questions surrounding the whole AIDS thing, but the promoters don't want you to know the truth. Check out http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index.htm to see the other side of the story. On the good side, news shows are beginning to air programs about nutrition, that show that our health has been adversely affected by the diets that have been promoted during the last 20 years. Authors like Atkins, Eades, and my own brother, Ray Audette are beginning to get a lot of public attention. Check out the new web site, I made for Ray, at http://www.neanderthin.com/ Alternative methods of healing, like Reiki, are also gaining in popularity. One night, while chatting with Mindy on ICQ, we teamed up our energies to do a healing on a man in a remote location. It was exciting to know that such a thing was possible. Looking forward to a new world of health, Rick -- ICQ # 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7435 From: Mark D Williams Subject: Voices and Fire Thanks Laura and JJ. I appreciate your thoughtful posts and words of encouragement. After reflecting a bit, I don't doubt that I have the ability, just whether certain things I have experienced qualified. A while back, as I was reading JJ's posts, especially the one titled, Historian, I had an unusual (for me) experience. I was reading and wondering if anyone had volunteered to do this and the thought came to me, "Do this." Was this a voice, a feeling, an inspiration, an idea, a soul contact? I honestly do not know. Now I currently have three part-time teaching jobs at area colleges. I teach two children's voice classes, am composing incidental music for the play, Romeo & Juliet at one of the schools, as well as composing an original musical that will be performed next spring. I am also doing musical direction for the show, Annie Get your Gun, in addition to playing a supporting part in the show. I am thinking to myself, "No way do you have time for this, you have got to be kidding." By the time I started receiving the list digest and had finished catching up with JJ's Archives, I had seen that no one had started on this yet, and I felt another urging, so I went with it and asked JJ if he still needed anyone to do editing or proofreading. I was still thinking, well, he probably has someone, when I receive an email back saying that he did not and would I like the job. Part of me still does not believe I am doing this, but I realized I did have some spare time left over, and JJ said Marylin and Keith had also volunteered to help, so now we are all chopping away at the archives and I discover that I am getting to know all of you much better from reading your posts. So thank you JJ for this opportunity. We have a long ways to go to catch up, but anyone wanting to check this out may go to: http://members.xoom.com/keysarchive Also I used to have on occasion a sensation of heat during group meditations. My eyes would be closed and I would see flashing lights. Then shortly after a sensation of heat. I have not experienced this for some time; would this be an example of the astral fire? It was good, but I certainly would not want to be deceived into thinking any of the experiences I have had were more than what they actually were. Mark Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7436 From: Mark D Williams Subject: Re: Good and Evil in the Arts Creative Arts and Entertainment: Since that is what I do for almost a living, I have decided to offer my tuppence worth. Unfortunately in this area there is much disagreement on what takes one forward in spiritual evolution. Many claim to be in the throes of spiritual ecstasy listening to a group called Nine Inch Nails. Some are even flipping burgers overtime at McDonalds in order to use their hard-earned dollars to purchase their latest life-enhancing CD. Now, even with a doctoral degree in vocal performance, I have not been able to distinguish between the sounds they make and the sounds I might hear at an average construction site. So, in my humble opinion their "music" is evil. It certainly could not have been conceived from anyone with greater intelligence. Further, the only thing I feel more free to do while attempting to listen to it is cover my ears. Beethoven, I am so jealous! To summarize: In the creative arts and entertainment field, if you like something it is good; if not, it is evil. Even worse than evil in this field would be anything that is boring. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-05/7437 From: J J Dewey Subject: Key Word Interesting posts on Good and Evil. I'll comment more soon. In the meantime there is a key word that helps us see the good and another key word that helps us see the evil. What do you suppose they are and why? Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7438 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Infectiousness I have noticed that friends who are close often go through similar things at the same time. It's part of the sharing, the oneness. And if you can't share with your friends, who can you share with! So it doesn't surprise me that so many of the List are coming down with physical ailments together. When I get colds/flu, it is sometimes at the same time as when I am experiencing loss, (well, 'perceived' loss because when I get a grip on myself I realize there is not really such a thing). It's like a kind of 'inward crying', that blocks/chokes me up. Glenys my heart goes out to you and to Rangi. (I felt like an intruder reading JJ's private mail. I apologize. I should have just stopped as soon as I realized it wasn't meant for the List. If it happens again, that is what I will do.) And Lorraine I shone a bit brighter for hearing that you are. Just as well happiness is infectious, too. Love, Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7439 From: "BlackLeather Rain" Subject: Re: Key Word I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for JJ, but in my opinion the way to determine good and evil is to look at Free Will. This is the reason I disagreed with your definitions of Good and Evil. Not all evil brings mankind back a step, and not all Good brings it forward. But when you look at Free Will in comparison to an act, it's easier to see whether or not the act is Good or Evil. Is rape evil? Well, compare it to free will. Does rape in any way, shape or form deter someone from using their free will? Yes. The rape victim's FW is hindered by the assaulter imposing their own will upon the victim. So we assume it is evil. Are drugs evil? Again, compare it to free will. Do non-prescription illegal drugs and alcohol impede free will? Often the answer is yes. The drugs, through addiction, hinder a person from acting upon their own free will and cause the person to crave the substance more and more and care about Becoming as a human being less and less. So we assume in many cases, drugs and alcohol are evil. (Don't flame me on this - I said MANY, not all cases *wink*) Is volunteerism evil? Does it hinder anyone's free will? The basis of volunteerism is a person willingly giving up their time and money to help another person further along their path in life. Not only does this NOT impede on a person's free will, but it also benefits most people involved. So we assume that volunteerism is Good. Perhaps the two key words you're looking for, then, JJ is Being and Becoming. Does the act promote a sense of stasis or Being, or does it promote a sense of change and Becoming? Evil=Being, Good=Becoming..? Again, I'm uncomfortable with placing such black and white labels on things, but if this is what our assignment is, I'm happy to oblige. Laura J J Dewey writes: "Interesting posts on Good and Evil. I'll comment more soon. In the meantime there is a key word that helps us see the good and another key word that helps us see the evil. What do you suppose they are and why?" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7440 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: Is there free will??? ... OT .. maybe .. From time to time, I have considered it important to post to my own list what the subject of discussion for the Tuesday Night group I hold in Tasmania is, so that people there may, if they choose, link in with this 'energy' to facilitate your own 'journey of realisation'. I am posting this copy on the The Keys of Knowledge List, because I feel that this subject may be of interest here, and indeed, may assist some with their own realisations. I have found for many, that this is the source to deep inner conflict .. and has been found to be 'under' back, arm, chest and throat dis-ease and as one of the sources of the fear of "the dark side". Last night was one such night .. and we had a look at the body beliefs around the subject of "free will". The focus of my work has always been .. "What separates us from "self realisation" or the "innocence" we are ... why can't we make it real in the physical body, what is holding us back. For many on the spiritual path, the issues of abundance .. money .. cash flow are very pertinent .. for no matter how much you 'realise' or 'know', the issues of permission and being able to support yourself are two that many have difficulty resolving. Fiona (my partner) and I have been doing some very deep body remembering work on this subject, and, without giving anything away, could I suggest that you might benefit by having a look at what "beliefs" your body holds around the following key-words .... "in-service" (contract between employer/employee) "of service" (service industries spiritual/religious connotations) "service" (within the church/religion) "servitude" "duty" "duty of care" "pardon" "ticket of leave" "alms for the poor" "tithing" "debt" "feudal" (as in peasant and land-owners) "worthy" and "unworthy" "karma" With these inherent terms and beliefs held in the unconscious mind and our physical body, there will always be a conflict between acceptance of our own integrity of self and the unconscious knowing that "our life/body is not our own" ... so where is our "free will" How can anyone accept the Christ Consciousness as more than an intellectual exercise when he/she is unconsciously a "servant" and a servant, disciple, pupil .. is not allowed to 'know' and are always subservient to someone else. If we are subservient to anyone, where is free will?? Remember ... our body (which is about 90% of the mind existing as the unconscious) contains the memories, beliefs and limitations of our ancestors as the loops in our DNA. We are being run by people who have been dead for a very long time. Christopher Wynter Hobart Tasmania wynter@bigpond.com "The Plain Man's Spiritual Notebook" http://www.anunda.com/anunda.htm my own discussion list can be found at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/anunda Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7441 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Seriously sick P.S. For those with the flu, I recommend Echinacea. For those with a really bad flu, euthanasia. Sorry - just a little 'sick' joke of mine! Jen Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7442 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Good and Evil Interesting you would bring up schooling, I just got this from the Future of Freedom Foundation. Quoted from the FFF E-Mail Update Oct. 5, 1999. Horrors! Maybe the Schools Are Working Just Fine by Sheldon Richman Most people today are convinced that the public schools are failing. Dissatisfaction with public education is at an all-time high. But have the public schools really failed? That depends on what they were originally set up to do. In a profound sense, the public schools are not an American institution. They were modeled on the system of public education found in authoritarian Prussia in the early 19th century. After Prussia's defeat by Napoleon in 1807, King Frederick William III reinforced the national school system set up in 1717. Children aged seven to fourteen had to attend school, and parents who did not comply could have their children taken away. Private schools could exist only so long as they met government standards. Teachers had to be certified, and high-school graduation examinations were necessary to enter the learned professions and the civil service. The schools imposed an official language to the prejudice of ethnic groups living in Prussia. The purpose of the system was to instill nationalism in demoralized Prussia and to train young men for the military and the bureaucracy. As the German philosopher Johann Fichte, a key influence on the system, said, "The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will." What does that have to do with the United States? Early in our history, education was mainly a private, free-market activity-no compulsory attendance laws, and no school taxes. That system produced the most literate, independent-thinking, self-reliant people in history. But not everyone was satisfied with the American way of doing things. According to John Taylor Gatto, the New York State Teacher of the Year in 1991: "A small number of very passionate American ideological leaders visited Prussia in the first half of the 19th century; fell in love with the order, obedience and efficiency of its education system; and campaigned relentlessly thereafter to bring the Prussian vision to these shores." They finally succeeded early in the 20th century. Just as the Prussian system was intended to unify Germany, the American educators' goal was to create a national culture out of the disparate subcultures that comprised the country in that period. (Catholic immigrants were a prominent target.) "To do that," writes Gatto, "children would have to be removed from their parents and from inappropriate cultural influences." The modern public school curriculum comes right out of the Prussian system. Gatto says the American educationists imported three major ideas from Prussia. The first was that the purpose of state schooling was not intellectual training but the conditioning of children "to obedience, subordination and collective life." Second, whole ideas were broken into fragmented "subjects," and school days were divided into fixed periods "so that self-motivation to learn would be muted by ceaseless interruptions." Third, the state was posited as the true parent of the children. Over the years, various fads have seized the education bureaucrats of America, but those fads have been variations on a theme: The public schools are intended to create complacent "good citizens"-not independent thinkers-because political leaders do not like boat-rockers who question things too closely. They prefer citizens who pay their taxes on time and leave them alone to chart the course of the nation. The growth in government power since the advent of public schools is hard to ignore. So, judged by their purpose, how have the public schools performed? Not bad, really. Unlike our ancestors' private schools, the public schools produce citizens who look to government to make important decisions for them-from whether to help the poor, to what drugs to take, to how to get an education-and solve societal problems. In other words, the public schools are working. If we do not like what they have achieved, then we have to junk the Prussian system and move toward an education based on the American principles of free markets and individual liberty. Mere reform is not enough. We need to separate school and state. That's the only sure way to revitalize education, families, and the American spirit. Sheldon Richman is senior fellow at The Future of Freedom Foundation in Fairfax, Va., author of its book Separating School & State: How to Liberate America's Families, and editor of The Freeman: Ideas on Liberty magazine. Sharon/ Richard wrote: "Good & evil, pick, one and explain what is evil about it and what is good. OK, not knowing a whole lot about any of the subjects, but having opinions on everything, I'll pick education. Specifically, education here in the US of A, The state of Kansas, has forbidden the teaching of evolution in the schools there. Allowing only the teaching of creationism (is that a correct word). The evil in that is the danger of the truly backward thinking, and the desire to limit children's knowledge. Knowing that increasing children's knowledge on every subject is the only answer to overcoming the mounting problems our children are facing. Now to the good in this, it has brought this to the attention of the whole U.S and beyond. Recognizing a problem is the first step to overcoming it. Love to all, Sharon" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7443 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: "Horrors! Maybe the Schools Are Working Just Fine" Public schools have the same purpose as prisons: Maintain the status quo. You didn't really think prisons were for punishment and rehab did you?? ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7444 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: Re: Voices and Fire Mark what part of the body are your experiencing this heat in? Sometimes something will inspire, or trigger a response in a person, and they will soon feel certain parts of the body becoming warm, sometimes uncomfortably, or unbearably hot. This is the Kundalini energy, and anyplace there is a blockage, you will have a build up of heat in that area as the rate of vibration increases, and your neurological system tries to deal with a degree of energy it is not accustomed too. If it's at the heart, the blockage is there, if at the third eye in the forehead, it's there. It can occur in many places but normally will occur at one of the seven chakra's. The third eye is the most common area to experience this sensation. It just means that where ever this is occurring that is the Chakra that is trying to awaken, and there is something you need to deal with in this area before it can. Also consider that this is just one persons view, and there may well be others on the list who have a better explanation than I can give. Hope this helps, Mark in Light, Love, and Power Your friend, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7445 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Good and Evil... I had something happen to me today that made me want to vent. ;) Many sales people are evil. I ask for a quote on some parts, and they try to have them delivered! grrr... Alright, so maybe it doesn't apply.. But I'm annoyed. :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7446 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: Re: Good and Evil in the Arts Mark I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post. Congratulations you have just been added to my list with, JJ, and Laura, of people who crack me up. One beautiful night, under a New Moon, I went outside under the stars, sat in a Lotus Position, and entered the Silence. Very few things have the power to disturb me in this state, but as I sat, I felt so light, I actually thought I was levitating, and then from the new peoples home across the road, came this Blaring Cacophony of What they so Erroneously refer to as Music (Heavy Metal) I have a more appropriate name for it, and could care less if it's being judgmental. It was so loud I could actually feel the vibration of it hitting, and tearing at my body, my ears felt as though ice picks had been run into them. It was like gravity was reborn, and I slammed to the ground, fangs grew in my mouth, and as I hissed, I instantly reverted to a Primitive State and, I experienced a irresistible compulsion for revenge, and the need to destroy the source of Chaos. Needless to say, this is an unusual reaction for someone of a usually diplomatic nature, such as myself. That night after I saw their lights go out, and I knew they were comfortably asleep at about three in the morning, their usually good natured neighbor with the assistance of his teen age son, turned four highly amplified twelve inch bass speakers directly toward their house at full throttle, and introduced them to the deep bass of the AUM sound and, some other deeply bass Tibetan Mantra Music. We could hear their cats primal screams, Dogs sounded off, and even Coyotes howled, and one of my favorite owls left and didn't return for a week. The next day we came to an agreement that if they wouldn't play their music, I wouldn't play mine, and peaceful serenity returned to the Ozarks. So Mark, really I just wanted to tell you how much I agreed with your post. What is Heaven to One, Is Hell to Another! in Light, Love, and Power John Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7447 From: Susi Subject: Re: OT Schools-good and evil Thank you Travis for this post. It has brought an idea to me for a lesson to help teach my three home schooled boys. "The schools must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will." I have battled with various thoughts, people, and systems in my efforts to give my children the best possible education with my available funds. I have placed them in the public schools for a year at a time but home schooled more frequently than not. My deepest concern has always been that the schools were trying to break their 'free will' first and give them an education second. Early in our history, education was mainly a private, free-market activity-no compulsory attendance laws, and no school taxes. That system produced the most literate, independent- thinking, self-reliant people in history. This is my dream for my children to learn through exploration. To learn through play. To learn through LOVE. To learn through their own unique experiences. To learn from their core and their past and present. Travis, The idea you have given to me from this post is to go back in time and analyze/dissect the school system during the time period mentioned above. I have noticed a difference this year in our entire family unit due to the oneness in our thoughts that our decision to home school is the right one and that difference is one of complete unity, a new found wholeness that the five of us have never experienced before. I wanted to share that with you all. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7448 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: OT Exchanging Information Recently, a group of Jehovah Witnesses stopped by to leave some of their teachings, these are very nice men and seem not to judge us when we speak openly to them, we weren't home this last time, but have decided , now that JJ sent us more paper-bound Book 1's to offer the Book to them when they offer us their teachings. Should provoke some interesting conversations. Love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7449 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: OT Schools-good and evil Susi writes: "The idea you have given to me from this post is to go back in time and analyze/dissect the school system during the time period mentioned above." That would be a very interesting discussion. I find that analyzing past and present situations often presents things in a very different light. Many times it shows us where we should be going. Best of luck with it, glad to be of help. ;) It just seemed to be a little more than coincidence that I got that and your mention of schooling at the same time. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7450 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Good and Evil... On the topic, here's a link to a SlashDot story that poses some interesting ethical questions. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/05/2236249&mode=thread Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7451 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Good and Evil Hi everyone, The question is not whether we experience good and evil because we do. The question is not whether we should choose good as opposed to evil because those of us who believe in good and evil do. The question is rather whether good and evil are seen as separable from each other. As we believed in separation between good and evil we thought we could eliminate evil by avoidance of evil or by doing good. Not knowing if evil were eliminated good would no longer be present. What then is the purpose of doing good and avoiding evil? If good and evil are inseparable from each other or one in being both evil and good are to be eliminated together so that oneness can be realized. As long as good and evil are held to be opposed to each other they persist indefinitely. When the spiral wobbles between the poles of good and evil to such an extent that it reaches its limit the two poles begin to cancel each other out. Then neutralized good and evil would cease to be conceived as such. This is the point where separation of good and evil is being transcended and harmony achieved out of conflicts. No one is forever stuck in the dualistic principle of good and evil. As a necessary part of the path to oneness separative duality is to be endured and utilized for a certain period of time. Good therefore is not to be regarded as the supreme value or goal to be aimed at in the long run. For evil is attached to good by being right on the opposite side. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7452 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Good and Evil Greetings to All, And hello to you Paul. I would like to see if I can understand what you are putting forward here Paul. Trust everyone will bear with me as well. I take that if I choose 'the good' in a particular scenario, I will automatically draw with that choice 'the evil' because they are inherently one. Perhaps an interesting example of this is for someone that desires to be slim... focusing on slim and getting fatter. The slim being good in this case, yet could be for another the other way around!! When I ultimately accept oneness, accepting all states of 'body size' then perhaps the 'perfect body size' template for this body can kick in over slim or fat? Am I on the same track of thinking with you Paul? This acceptance of oneness ceases the swing in polarity, that creates happiness/unhappiness cycling. I see that oneness takes one above the polarity swing of duality... and at this level consciousness presents a different picture, or perhaps accepts our 'desired' picture free of duality. Is this how you see it? I welcome all comments. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7453 From: Jean Subject: Re: Good and Evil in the Arts John as I read your experience with the music in the Ozarks, I let out a FIT >>>of laughter...Thanks for the laughs and the advice (always good advice) that you gave me earlier. your friend in light, Jean My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7454 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Good and Evil Hi Zia and everyone, We think along the same lines, Zia. The problem of polarity is a problem of thoughts and emotions. The more one worries about their body size or weight the further along they wobble between the two poles of weight. In the case of one who is concerned about weight the slimmer they feel the more worried they become about getting fat. On the other hand, if one is not concerned about weight at all they would feel right about their weight. They might not even think about their weight. They are liberated from the problem of weight. To transcend polarity means freedom from desires and beliefs and to be free means to be spiritual. To be material on the other hand means to be weighed down and confined to polarization of particular needs and thoughts. The thought of good and evil and the value system born there from are more material than spiritual on the continuum of the one life. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7455 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Good and Evil Paul says "The problem of polarity is a problem of thoughts and emotions. The more one worries about their body size or weight the further along they wobble between the two poles of weight. In the case of one who is concerned about weight the slimmer they feel the more worried they become about getting fat. On the other hand, if one is not concerned about weight at all they would feel right about their weight. They might not even think about their weight. They are liberated from the problem of weight." "To transcend polarity means freedom from desires and beliefs and to be free means to be spiritual. To be material on the other hand means to be weighed down and confined to polarization of particular needs and thoughts. The thought of good and evil and the value system born there from are more material than spiritual on the continuum of the one life." Rick says: I'm not buying any of this. Polarity is not a "bad" thing. Neither is material. These are things that God made for His pleasure. How can anyone call them bad? The object of the game is not to eliminate polarity and material, but rather to improve our skills in working with them. Being too thin or fat doesn't come from thinking about it. They are the result of the decision to ignore the dynamics of the materials we are given to work with. Mineral spirits and gasoline both are flammable, but you won't get very far if you put mineral spirits in your cars tank. Mineral spirits aren't bad and gas isn't good, but mineral spirits is bad for you car and gas is good for it. God is the Main Mechanic. If you are trying to become a skilled mechanic, like Him, that's good. If you think it doesn't matter what kind of fuel you use, that's bad. Obesity isn't caused by calories. It is the immune system's reaction to proteins that the human body can't use. If the material world is the manifestation of God's thinking, how can anybody rate it as being inferior to the infinite realm of which it is a part. Being a philosopher is a noble profession, only when it is balanced with hands on, scientific, mechanical know how. Jesus was a carpenter. Teaching the need to transcend polarity will only prolong it. It's like throwing your tools into the works. Keep banging the rocks together, if you want to start a fire. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7456 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Re: Keywords Hi keysters About the keywords for good and evil - could it be "oneness" - and all that tries to create oneness (good) and "separativeness" - and all that tries to separate (evil)? Love to all Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7457 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Good and Evil Rick says: "I'm not buying any of this. Polarity is not a "bad" thing. Neither is material. These are things that God made for His pleasure. How can anyone call them bad? The object of the game is not to eliminate polarity and material, but rather to improve our skills in working with them." Yep, seeing the spirit IN matter, or you might say, seeing oneness in duality. But seeing duality nonetheless. Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Live duality, but in your ideals, don't take duality for being real where it is not. On the other hand, don't take reality .. I mean, don't take duality for being oneness where it is not. So it is having ideals in oneness, and hands and feet in duality (did you notice? there are two of them;-)) One head, two feet;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7458 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Good and Evil Zia writes: "This acceptance of oneness ceases the swing in polarity, that creates happiness/unhappiness cycling. I see that oneness takes one above the polarity swing of duality... and at this level consciousness presents a different picture, or perhaps accepts our 'desired' picture free of duality. Is this how you see it?" We all agree on this Zia. In consciousness, somewhere, it is necessary to live in oneness. But once you did what you described, and reconquered that oneness of thought (and freed yourself from inappropriate duality, guilt or fear thinking), the next step is to tackle at matter and duality. Once you don't believe anymore in duality, rediscover its reality, its profound meaning. YEs, it exists, and yes, it is through duality that we live and move. So once my upper mind is developed, and my lower mind is aligned on it, and built according to oneness thinking, what I need is to align my heart and my body. This wont be done by refusing the dualities, but by accepting and seeing the spirit into them, in other words, by learning the laws that govern them, with the flesh as with the mind. I feel like Paul Yu talks about rising above emotional thinking (plexus), where dualities are dramatized, and JJ and others are talking about going down from anti-dualistic thought.., no, not even that. First you are emotional. Then you open the soul contact, and you get anti dualistic at the extreme. Then you re organize your mind, according to this oneness. But there, you need to use and apply this new light to the world, heart, and body, life and matter. So you re-incarnate;-), and make the meridians work anew. Emotions are not bad, and duality is not bad. It IS, at least in the world we are in as bodies. ANd our bodies exist, and the lessons they provide to our consciousness are priceless. So yes, in higher worlds, form doesn't exist, nor time and space. This is good to know this, but this is delusion to think that duality doesn't really exist as long as we did not transcend it in the flesh. We all can reach a oneness mind trip. But our bodies are here for us to tackle at dual reality. And we grow through action. Meditation is good only if it enhances action. I fled much from action. So it is a balance thing. Don't be too materialistic, but don't be too spiritualistic either;-) Our minds are too quick in refusing reality. (sorry for the mess of my expression, but I believe there are good ideas in it;) C ya;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7459 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Recognizing Good and Evil Travis writes: "If you're going to respond please try to keep to debate style argument. I don't want to give the list a baptism of fire. ;) I'll keep my flamethrower in the closet if you will." Hi Travis You just made a statement that I wish we could convince all candidates for political offices to agree with. To slip back to my "old way of thinking" for a bit, if candidates for any political office could follow their own demands of "political correctness" then maybe we, the voters, wouldn't have to listen to a lot of lies and suppositions about the other guy. The trouble with voting any more is that we only learn "who not to vote for" in all of the campaigns. That brings me to the conclusion that no one running for any office is fit to be voted in. We have governments full of "imbecilic boobs" that have no concept of how to handle money. The next time I vote I just may do the same thing I did in a presidential election some years back. I voted for: Ethics, honesty, compassion, truthfulness, etc. Yes.....I did just that, I wrote in my "candidate's" name. Never did hear anything about it. LOL So what's new? Returning now to my preferred way of thinking. I forgive myself for "falling back" for a while. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-06/7460 From: J J Dewey Subject: Good and Evil Forever Good comments on dualities Rick. Very close to my own thinking. Also glad you are working on the three dimensional molecules. Sounds like you are having a good time. I like your independent spirit. That said I thought I would make a few more comments on Paul's statements on good and evil. Paul "The question is not whether we experience good and evil because we do. The question is not whether we should choose good as opposed to evil because those of us who believe in good and evil do." JJ You choose good and evil whether you believe in it or not. If you are going to the grocery store and one road takes you the wrong direction (evil) and the other one the right direction (good) and you choose the wrong road you will be going on the wrong road whether you believe you are or not. Belief has nothing to do with the world of dualities that we find ourselves in. Paul is a great example of this. He claims to not believe in dualities, yet he is still here among us in the world of dualities arguing on the opposing side of my teachings, illustrating my point that belief has nothing to do with dualities. What is, is - belief or not. Paul continues: "The question is rather whether good and evil are seen as separable from each other. As we believed in separation between good and evil we thought we could eliminate evil by avoidance of evil or by doing good. Not knowing if evil were eliminated good would no longer be present. What then is the purpose of doing good and avoiding evil?" JJ Paul said "The question is rather whether good and evil are seen as separable from each other." I don't think that is the question. I think most people on this list see the polarities and the point between as a divine Trinity working as one purpose. He continues: "As we believed in separation between good and evil we thought we could eliminate evil by avoidance of evil or by doing good." I also doubt that anyone on this list believes this idea. I certainly do not expect to eliminate evil by doing good. Avoid evil, perhaps, but eliminate - no. If there is good there has to be evil, and if there is evil there must be the possibility of good. Then Paul says: "Not knowing if evil were eliminated good would no longer be present." I think most students realize this point. Finally Paul asks: "What then is the purpose of doing good and avoiding evil?" The answer to this should be pretty obvious to any beginning student of metaphysics or even a Sunday School class. While it is true (as you pointed out) that choosing evil (such as drug addiction or killing your dog) can lead to the learning of some lesson in the far future) it is also true that the choosing of good (not being addicted and treating your dog warmly) will make the here and now much more pleasant as we pass through it. Since we spend billions of years passing through the here and now it makes a lot of sense to make the present as joyous as possible. We are in the present for a long time. I would match my own inner peace as I face the decisions of good and evil straight on against that of any one else who sees themselves as not believing in the dualities. I have met quite a number of people who seem to think in this vein and have seen very little evidence that they have any more peace than the born again Christian that they see as way below them on the scale of seeing reality. In addition to this obvious answer there is another deeper one. When the overwhelming majority begin to choose the good over the evil that which was evil does begin to disappear, but evil does not disappear. What happens instead is that good and evil are shifted to a higher octave. When this occurs that which was good becomes the evil and the good is replaced by a "new" vision or principle for us to master. For instance, in past ages the kingdom governments were considered the good and the tribal governments were considered the evil as tribes merged into kingdoms. Then after the kingdoms brought all the progress that the consciousness of humanity could usefully assimilate the new vision of the representative governments began to manifest. When this began to happen the kingdoms and their great authority which used to be the good now becomes the evil and the representative systems become the good. Even so as we move ahead the representative form will become the evil and a more pure democracy will become the good. Thus we do not expect to eliminate evil in this reality, but we can eliminate the negative influence of that which distracts from joyousness and by doing so go on to a higher level of becoming and experience. Paul continues: "As long as good and evil are held to be opposed to each other they persist indefinitely." JJ The basic principle of duality and good and evil will persist in some form for eternity yet any item that we define as evil will eventually fade away. For instance, in my home town of Boise Idaho there is no tribal living, no natives running around in loin cloths eking out a living eating roots. Slavery used to be considered good by many, but here in Boise we have no human bondage. We have completely eliminated this evil which used to be the good. Principles (such as good and evil) are eternal and cannot be eliminated by thought, but they can be directed and channeled toward that which we see as the good, the beautiful and the true. Paul continues: "No one is forever stuck in the dualistic principle of good and evil." I wouldn't use the word stuck. Instead I would word it this way. God has provided us with the opportunity to eternally progress from one duality to another with each new duality bringing a greater state of becoming and joyousness than the last. Then too we have a needed rest between such endeavors. This rest is as close as we get to a non existent state where no dualities persist. And concerning weight. My wife puts a lot of attention on keeping her weight where she wants it and consequently is very successful at it. She's still a fox in her fifties and this greatly pleases me. Thank God she hasn't relied on the oneness diet. THE KEY WORD Laura basically got the key word for good which is liberty. She said free will which is close enough. Thus they key word for evil would be bondage. Anni also gave a great answer: "About the keywords for good and evil - could it be "oneness" - and all that tries to create oneness (good) and "separateness" - and all that tries to separate (evil)?" Yes, greater oneness is a good that always lies before us, but true oneness must come through free will. The illusion of oneness can be forced and this produces a great evil and prevents those so forced from moving forward. Liberty often creates great disturbance for a period of time, but if liberty is not given up for some temporary benefit true union will eventually come. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7461 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Good and Evil Forever A cartoon in yesterday's paper reminded me of our current topic. Haggar says, "Happiness lies in our ability to say those three little words." His friend says, "You mean, I love you?" Haggar replies, "No, I got mine." Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7462 From: "Rapter" Subject: Prussian Education System in America Travis Tabbal; thank-you for the history lesson. I agree, the current public education system found in most western democracies has developed as a tool to indoctrinate the populace to become good tax paying domesticated serfs. They are primarily a tool of the beast! I often wonder why parents are so brainwashed into turning their beloved children over to the beast at age 5 or 6 to become better 'I am's'. Keith Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7463 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Two ends of a continuum While I don't think for a minute I have come up with the key words you are looking for JJ, I do think that anything that enhances life is 'good' and anything that takes away from it is evil. Enlivening and deadening (? This may not be a word, but you get my drift!) The more spirit (life) a thing has or gives, the better (or gooder) it or he or she is. The more it/he/she moves away from spirit, the further in the direction towards evil he/she/it is heading. The word 'evil' is not the same as the word 'bad' in my book. It has more to do with being off the path or Falling than it does with moralistic judgment. Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7464 From: Brian Weis Subject: Takin' a stab at keywords... JJ writes: "In the meantime there is a key word that helps us see the good and another key word that helps us see the evil. What do you suppose they are and why?" I'm thinking that the keywords are "us" and "them". Or, to be a bit more technical, "inclusive" and "exclusive". My reasoning is this: People rarely associate themselves with "evil" or bad things. It's always "someone else" or it's "out there". Remember, the Christian church -- before it received official sanctioning from Rome -- was a religion of persecuted people. In their eyes, "we are the good, for we are the oppressed". And everyone else? "They are evil, for they are the oppressors". These keyword suggestions make even more sense when you remember the Light of Christ meditations we had a short time ago. When you look for the Christ within another person, you bring that person into your circle. He/she is INCLUDED and becomes part of your own personal "Us". On the other hand, when that jerk cuts you off on the highway, and the last thing you are thinking about is the Christ within that person, there is a wall that separates the two of you. He/she is immediately cast (at least in your mind) into the "enemy" camp and so becomes a heinous representative of the dreaded "them". Just a few musings I wanted to share. Ciao! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7465 From: Laura Subject: Re: Prussian Education System in America Keith The answer to your question about why parents allow their children to become brainwashed through the school system (and don't even limit it to the PUBLIC school system. Private schools are just as guilty.) lies in the school system itself. What you're raised with is what you know, unless an incredible revelation falls upon you. Parents allow their children to be brainwashed through the public school system because they themselves were brainwashed as children because their parents were brainwashed as children because their... shall I continue? ;) Post No. keys-l: /1999-10-07/7466 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Good and Evil Forever JJ "That said I thought I would make a few more comments on Paul's statements on good and evil." Paul "The question is not whether we experience good and evil because we do. The question is not whether we should choose good as opposed to evil because those of us who believe in good and evil do." JJ "You choose good and evil whether you believe in it or not. If you are going to the grocery store and one road takes you the wrong direction (evil) and the other one the right direction (good) and you choose the wrong road you will be going on the wrong road whether you believe you are or not. Belief has nothing to do with the world of dualities that we find ourselves in. Paul is a great example of this. He claims to not believe in dualities, yet he is still here among us in the world of dualities arguing on the opposing side of my teachings, illustrating my point that belief has nothing to do with dualities. What is, is - belief or not." Hi JJ and everyone, A belief is a firm affirmation of a representation of an object as real or, in other words, an inflexible act of mind to stick to a mental representation of an object as true. In your example, JJ, the belief is that one of the two roads leads to the grocery store. One would choose the right road leading to the store. If they did choose the wrong road it was not because it was the wrong road but because they were misled or mistaken for some reason. One always follow one's belief to do the right thing as one sees it. If I didn't believe in dualities JJ,, I would not be discussing experiences of polarity and polarization. But belief in duality is not the same as belief in separation and this distinction has been the crucial point in our discussions often missed. Paul continues: "The question is rather whether good and evil are seen as separable from each other. As we believed in separation between good and evil we thought we could eliminate evil by avoidance of evil or by doing good. Not knowing if evil were eliminated good would no longer be present. What then is the purpose of doing good and avoiding evil?" JJ "Paul said "The question is rather whether good and evil are seen as separable from each other." "I don't think that is the question. I think most people on this list see the polarities and the point between as a divine Trinity working as one purpose." Paul Yu: "I was not referring to people on the list. I was talking about the issue in general as a crucial challenge to those on the path." JJ "He continues: "As we believed in separation between good and evil we thought we could eliminate evil by avoidance of evil or by doing good." I also doubt that anyone on this list believes this idea. I certainly do not expect to eliminate evil by doing good. Avoid evil, perhaps, but eliminate - no. If there is good there has to be evil, and if there is evil there must be the possibility of good." Paul Yu: "Our belief system is generally unconscious well hidden from our awareness. That is the area we need to delve into through our polarized experiences. What I said is a logical statement: If separation was believed to be real, evil had to be eliminated for the building of good. True, if there is good there has to be evil. But if there is evil there is not only possibility of good, there has to be good to be manifested." Then Paul says: "Not knowing if evil were eliminated good would no longer be present." "I think most students realize this point." Finally Paul asks: "What then is the purpose of doing good and avoiding evil?" "The answer to this should be pretty obvious to any beginning student of metaphysics or even a Sunday School class." Paul Yu: "I don't think it is that obvious. Those who hold on to the principle of good and evil as mutually exclusive would forever pursue good and try to eliminate evil. This is not what the knowledge of good and evil is here for in the first place." JJ "While it is true (as you pointed out) that choosing evil (such as drug addiction or killing your dog) can lead to the learning of some lesson in the far future) it is also true that the choosing of good (not being addicted and treating your dog warmly) will make the here and now much more pleasant as we pass through it. Since we spend billions of years passing through the here and now it makes a lot of sense to make the present as joyous as possible. We are in the present for a long time." Paul Yu: To make here and now pleasant is irrelevant in the design of evolution. It is only the personality that is concerned about pleasant experiences. To single out, and pay attention to, pleasant experiences as opposed to unpleasant ones is indicative of an illusory belief in separation of what is pleasant and what is not. "I would match my own inner peace as I face the decisions of good and evil straight on against that of any one else who sees themselves as not believing in the dualities. I have met quite a number of people who seem to think in this vein and have seen very little evidence that they have any more peace than the born again Christian that they see as way below them on the scale of seeing reality." "In addition to this obvious answer there is another deeper one. When the overwhelming majority begin to choose the good over the evil that which was evil does begin to disappear, but evil does not disappear. What happens instead is that good and evil are shifted to a higher octave. When this occurs that which was good becomes the evil and the good is replaced by a "new" vision or principle for us to master." Paul Yu: Yes, good and evil are ever spiraling upward to higher octaves. This is not due to the increase of good and decrease of evil for these are mere appearances. This is due to the neutralization of the mental-emotional forces of good and evil on each turn of the spiral. It is specifically the loving acceptance of the felt evil that does the trick canceling out both good and evil and bringing duality into oneness of love energy. "For instance, in past ages the kingdom governments were considered the good and the tribal governments were considered the evil as tribes merged into kingdoms. Then after the kingdoms brought all the progress that the consciousness of humanity could usefully assimilate the new vision of the representative governments began to manifest. When this began to happen the kingdoms and their great authority which used to be the good now becomes the evil and the representative systems become the good. Even so as we move ahead the representative form will become the evil and a more pure democracy will become the good." "Thus we do not expect to eliminate evil in this reality, but we can eliminate the negative influence of that which distracts from joyousness and by doing so go on to a higher level of becoming and experience." Paul Yu: Even evil is not to be focused on as if it had its own existence why bother about its negative influence? Any attempt to eliminate or resist anything having to do with evil is in the final analysis going against the process of neutralization of good and evil. Loving acceptance, which is neither approval nor disapproval, of evil is the only way to really eliminate evil and transcend polarity. "Paul continues: "As long as good and evil are held to be opposed to each other they persist indefinitely." "JJ: The basic principle of duality and good and evil will persist in some form for eternity yet any item that we define as evil will eventually fade away. For instance, in my home town of Boise Idaho there is no tribal living, no natives running around in loin cloths eking out a living eating roots." "Slavery used to be considered good by many, but here in Boise we have no human bondage. We have completely eliminated this evil which used to be the good." "Principles (such as good and evil) are eternal and cannot be eliminated by thought, but they can be directed and channeled toward that which we see as the good, the beautiful and the true." Paul Yu: Duality on the cosmic level can never be neutralized as long as oneness is being manifested. The cyclic interval of rest from manifestation is the only phase when oneness is NOTHINGNESS instead of dual oneness. On the human level, however, duality means separation of oneness into two mutually exclusive parts. Unless we dissipate this illusion of separation of duality by means of the neutralization process we could not but be confined to the principle of good and evil and suffer the consequences. Paul continues: "No one is forever stuck in the dualistic principle of good and evil." "I wouldn't use the word stuck. Instead I would word it this way. God has provided us with the opportunity to eternally progress from one duality to another with each new duality bringing a greater state of becoming and joyousness than the last. Then too we have a needed rest between such endeavors. This rest is as close as we get to a non existent state where no dualities persist.' Paul Yu: I used the word stuck in the context where good and evil are like two separate forces pulling us in opposite directions causing pain. I recognize a