1999 - WEEK 38 Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7014 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness "Question: Why does the process of Becoming and creating our own changing reality take us o a higher level of enjoyment than just staying in the safe place away from the dualities?" Wow! To become or not to become, that is an interesting question. I look at my own insatiable thirst for new experiences and ask what drives me to it. The only answer forthcoming is that it's more fun that way. I've met a handful of people that have had bigger experiences, but can't think of any that have had the variety I have. Mr. been there, done that, a walking encyclopedia, said it best in my autobiographic song, "Fallin' in Love Again". "Every time I do discover is like love to me, so by the time there's nothing left undone, oh what a lover I'll be." So, how is that better than just being? Well, there is that part of me that is one with All/Nothing (esoteric) multiplied by oneness with all experience. Logically, one squared still equals one, but somehow it feels like more, no matter how anybody explains it to me otherwise. Becoming is more fun than not becoming. Life is it's own reward. It just IS, I don't know why, but I think the God of my understanding gets the same perks out of it that I do, so I guess I'm in good company. Guess that's why I still haven't mastered meditation yet. Still haven't figured out where the fun part of sitting, doing nothing comes in. One by One, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com *** Got to have adventure In everything I do. What's the sense of living If you can't learn something new? Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7015 From: J J Dewey Subject: Heros Keith writes: "Moe made all of his own decisions! He never let his companions in the office or in the wilderness make decisions for him." "When Moe decided to go into the wilderness with his companions the first time it was because he wanted to go. When Moe left the wilderness to first time because in couldn't handle the situation it was his decision. Moe never let the others become his beast by letting them talk him out of his decision to leave. Moe decided to return to the wilderness later because he came to his own decision." "Moe is a true example of a searcher who is decision!" Nice original thinking Keith, but I beg to differ. There was no beast within the group. If there was there would have been some punishment meted out to Moe for turning back, or extreme pressure or illusion put before him. As it was Phil and Richard were disappointed when Moe turned back just as we are disappointed in daily life when we plan to see a movie, for instance, with a friend and the friend backs out. That does not make you the beast to that friend. Moe backed out not because of the inner voice of the Spirit but because of the inner voice of fear. He knew when he entered into the agreement that there would be dangers, but let his fear negate his decision to have a great experience. When we retreat because of fear then the time comes that we must face that fear again as Moe did when he saw the advantages gained by Phil and Richard because they faced their fears. How can Moe be the hero when he was envious of the path that Phil and Richard had blazed? Moe followed Phil and Richard, but Moe offered no path that any were desirous to follow. In reality all of us here are Phil's and Richards because we decided and agreed to come to this wilderness earth and go through many lives of danger, pain and sorrow for the ultimate reward of enhanced joy and livingness. The Moe's are those who decided to not take physical bodies and play it safe. There are thirty billion Moes and Curlys. and sixty billion Phils and Richards. Anni asked about Curly's fate. The parable was not an exact correspondence, but no soul is ever lost forever. There is always a second chance somewhere down the road In answer to your other questions: "Is there a relationship between NJ and the great pyramid? " Answer: Yes. Many mystics and sages have had some type of vision of the New Jerusalem and made some type of pattern of it on the earth. The ancient pyramids in the east and west were quite similar for this reason and the disciples within them had inner communion with each other to a degree. "I would like to know whether the sword of Laban in the Book of Mormon is the same sword as Excalibur? " No. They were two different swords. Excalibur was a symbol of the Rod of Initiation held by the Ancient of Days. "You can interpret Brigham Young's role in history as either an enlightened leader and successor to Joseph Smith or a usurper!" Brigham Young was a disciple. He was Solomon in a past life, but as Brigham he made many mistakes and did not have a clear understanding of the Molecule and was not a usable instrument to link up with the Brotherhood. He also encouraged an inner order called the Danites which were inspired by the Dark Brotherhood to destroy the light in the church. This order got some of the oaths of darkness into the temple ceremony, such as slitting the throat. From the Book of Moses we read: "And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands." This is a symbolic beginning of the oaths popular amount those who do works of darkness and they were embraced by the church. Joseph was working to unsure that this would not be included in the temple ceremony near the end of his life and was one of the reasons he was killed. The Danites felt he betrayed them and that is why they tried to cut off his head after he was shot, but divine interference prevented it. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7016 From: Marylin Subject: Re: O.T. Joseph Smith's successor Brigham Young or his son Keith writes: "Emma, Joseph Smith's wife would have nothing to do with Brigham Young after her husband was murdered. Emma would not follow Brigham Young to Utah. Emma would not give Brigham Young the Inspired Version of the Bible which Joseph Smith had restored before his death. I would be interested if anybody has any comments?" Hi Keith I have a another question......where did you get information like this? I have never heard of it before or read about it in any of the Mormon literature I had access to. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7017 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Flow and Duality Rick writes: "This mail list is dedicated to a given program and I, for one, would like to get back on track. I don't think that is asking too much." Hi Rick This sounds to me like we have all had several days (or more?) to learn fully the process of "wasting time" and it is now time to learn how to use time more efficiently....I didn't mean for this to sound so "cold", but maybe that's just the way it is with some things. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7018 From: J J Dewey Subject: Animals Welcome Paula as a new poster girl (female who posts to this list). You are concerned about people who are cruel to animals as well as human beings. It is certainly true that cruel people are hard to stomach. One of the worst punishments we can give them is to not associate with them. If cruel people only have other cruel people for friends then they may be pressured into reform to move into better company. You took a step in the right direction by confronting people cruel to animals. If everyone did that, cruelty would soon diminish in the human race. Do you forgive these people? Forgiveness is really for our benefit and here's how I deal with cruel people. I just see them as people of limited consciousness that do not know any better. Do we forgive a cat for tantalizing a mouse before he eats it. No, there is nothing to forgive because that is just the way it is with a cat and if you want to keep your pet rat or bird safe you must keep them away from the cat. Having negative feelings toward the cruel person, the cat or any other living thing is a waste of energy. Instead do everything in your power to be harmless and spread harmlessness. Even though one should forgive all people that does not mean you have to associate with them or accept them into your life. Jesus forgave the Jews who crucified him yet he also chased them out of he temple in anger partially for their cruelty to animals. You might want to read my account of my chicken that I loved as a kid at: http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/JJArchives.html Go to Archive 241. Along this line a lurker wrote me the following question: "If you wouldn't mind, I do have a problem/question that I would like to ask you and hopefully you will have an answer to it. I look to the universe and I do see the order, the design, the plan that manifest throughout nature and believe that this indeed is testimony of a Loving Creator. However, I will never understand how this "Loving Creator" could of ever ever come up with the food chain! It seems to be blasphemy to design with love other to implant the need to devour life. Often this is carried out in the cruelest of manner as one species feeds of another and on and on and on. WHY??? I have grate difficulty with this entire concept and someday God has a lot of explaining to do." Interesting question. Man is indeed cruel to man, but the animals eating and hunting each other on the food chain is indeed a fierce thing. Something I think is even worse is the hunger and could they have to go through during winter months in the wilderness. Animals have an advantage over humans for living in this hunting environment. If a human learns he is facing a threat then he worries about it all the time, but because of a difference in consciousness an animal only has fear when confronted with immediate danger (in normal circumstances anyway). Thus a deer that is in danger only one day a month will live 29 days in relative peace. A human in the same circumstance would be in edge all 30 days. This does not answer your question, but perhaps it will give you the understanding that in many ways the hunted animals live in greater peace than we do. Why does God allow such apparent cruelty in the food chain? Many people think that God can just snap His/Her/It's fingers and make everything right if He wants to but such is not the case. The evolution through the food chain in this sphere is the only way God can figure out to evolve the higher lives in this dense sphere. Without this process you and I would not be here. There is no other way at present. I know we have heard in all the religions that God is all powerful, but God has reflected Itself into unlimited lives of which you and I are one and each life must work out its best methods of survival and evolution. If there was another way, the reflections of God who create evolution would have explored it, but apparently the way things are in the animal kingdom is the best we have been able to engineer so far. One thing that is helping the animals live more peaceably is that many humans have adopted them as pets and raised others for food and in doing so the domestic animals have become much more gentle than the wild animals, but also very dependent on us. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7019 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Response to Paula Dear Paula You wrote: " I don't want to feel angry towards these people, but I can't turn my back on a helpless creature that is weaker than me and in need." etc etc Nor should you turn your back on the creature, but as far as your anger towards the person hurting the animal goes I'll give an alternative way of viewing the situation, which helped me once. I was told not to judge the person because I did not have the full picture. For all I knew, that person had severely beaten dogs all his life (perhaps because that is how the people around him treated them, or how he himself had been treated by authority figures in his life), and that the day before I came across him giving the dog a kick, he had watched someone he respected being kind but firm with a dog and had noticed that the dog did not cower but at the same time responded with the desired behaviour. This put a new approach into his head and when I saw him he was, unbeknown to me, treating his own dog far, far better than he had ever done before, only giving the dog a kick whereas before he would have automatically, repeatedly, beaten it. I wonder which of us at that moment had the brightest colours in our aura? He, as a result of the huge shift he had made in consciousness which was reflected in a greater degree of kindness toward his dog than he had ever before shown? Or me, who would never hurt an animal, thinking hateful, angry, righteous, judgmental thoughts towards the man? Maybe, those who are insecure enough to feel the need to treat animals or creatures weaker than themselves poorly are in as much need of loving care and assistance as are the animals they mistreat. If we extend to them kindness and understanding, they will be more likely to adopt it towards others. Well, that's my theory anyway! In practice, I'm not much of an example. I stole my dog, Gemma, from her owner's backyard because she was being severely mistreated and underfed! Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7020 From: "Aley" Subject: Essene Information This came to me Via another list I thought other's in the group would like it also: Subject: Essene Information We create vibratory possibilities about what we want to create in our world. When thought, feeling, and emotion become as One we reach our highest potential. Since feeling is electromagnetic charges moving across cell walls in our bodies, we are effectively moving energy throughout our bodies, as well as outside of our bodies. We have 1.17volts of electrical potential in each of the cells in our bodies. This is the God energy within each of our cells - our power potential. We experience IN our bodies BEFORE the event is experienced externally. This means: WE ARE and WE DO CREATE OUR REALITY. The Essenes created an equation to move energy throughout our bodies. It can be defined as a "lost mode of prayer", unlike prayer as we know it. This information was 'tossed aside', thrown away by early Christians, namely Constantine and his council, in the year 325 AD.Basically, what was left to pass on to later generations were the empty rituals. It is not the ritual that 'makes it happen'. The ritual is but the expression that sets the tone for your prayer. Behind each prayer is a thought form. For example: a person may pray for more money. What is the thought behind this prayer? It is," I don't have enough money. I live in scarcity, I need more." Therefore, instead of receiving more money, this person will indeed live in scarcity because that is the thought that went out into consciousness and became real. If we had had all of the information extracted from the scriptures, we may have learned to tune into the Earth's vibration and worked with it instead of inventing internal combustion, etc. that works against the Earth's vibration. Amazingly, we have come quite a long way without this information. We have found it along the way, although we are not all using these methods - yet. The Essenes lived by these four tenants: 1. Only One of us is here. This is a holographic consciousness, a pattern whole and complete unto itself which is part of a larger pattern, and on and on into infinity. Each time an individual chooses a new option this person becomes a bridge. They have created a new way which changes the hologram of human consciousness. 2. The Unity consciousness is moving collectively toward this rare moment in history. We have lived in polarity, duality. Each time one person chooses to move out of this pattern, the consciousness changes. 3. We have direct access to the Creative Forces of this world. This is the Essene mode of Prayer. See it, say it, and it is done. You directly access creation, you create. 4. We have access to a 'secret science'. It is the Science of Compassion, the most ancient of sciences that allows us to gracefully transcend the greatest challenges of our lives with grace. The Essenes taught, and this is correlated by Tibetan monks, the world's record keepers, that you must embody the thought, feeling, emotion and knowing that IT IS DONE AND IT IS TRUE. "It is done." We have heard "Ask and you shall receive~ Ask and it will be given you." The actual translation from the Aramaic is: Ask without hidden motive and be surrounded by your answer." (Ask and see it done.) The asking perpetuates the event. Instead of asking for peace in our world, give thanks for the peace in the world and change the world paradigm. This is the time of no time. We are creating it at this moment. The Tibetans see nothing beyond the Kali Yoga because it is being invented by us as we live it. This is a very different time than our past times. The Essene information matches with the Tibetan information, which matches with the Mayan information and the Hopi. We've heard it used in many contexts, but this truly is what the New Age means. The "secret" of the Essenes was "PEACE". The Masters taught that you could 'move the mountain' if you aligned yourself, and therefore your world, in a vibratory template. You can envision this as three circles, one on top of the other. The circles from top to bottom were: thought, feelings, and emotions. ( They coupled emotions with the physical - the body.) When all three are aligned and mirror each other, you are in your optimum truth and your full power. You dishonor Self if you say one thing and feel another, you have shifted out of alignment with your pure potential. The Essenes asked: "How do we create a unified pattern in thought, word, emotion and feeling in alignment?" 1. Find peace in body/emotions. 2. Seek peace in feelings. Call in Love to purify. 3. Seek peace in thoughts. though unseen, thought has the strength to shake and shape the body and the world. In the presence of peace you have compassion and love. ( Look at the Dali Llama's face! ;-) ) The "secret code" of the Essenes is " PEACE BE WITH YOU". The other part of the equation is: If you come from the place that what you are choosing to have has already happened, in doing so you have created the template of that possibility and that is what allows it to be real. In both Hopi and Tibetan tradition there is a prophecy that states that: When the people of the Red Rose lose their homes and are scattered across the world ~ peace will come to the world. This has happened. The Tibetan peoples have been driven from their homes. And where have they gone? All over the world. And what are they teaching? Peace. There are no mistakes or coincidences. We are transcending the catastrophic prophecies of yesteryears. Upon us is the shift of the ages, Zero Point, the Mayan and Hopi calendars of No Time. We are within 3-4 years, or closer, to this time. We are experiencing changes. We have lost magnetics on the Earth's surface. There have been major explosions of comets colliding with the back side of our sun. In 1997 there was a new signal picked up in Sucara, NM emanating from the center of the Milky Way. Two major ice shells in Antarctica fractured. In late 1997 an astronomer measured an explosion on the perimeter of our Universe second only to the Big Bang. There have been several since. Are these signs that new universes are forming? There are many parallel/possibilities/realities. Revelations and Nostradamus gave us two possibilities. We determine which of the simultaneous realities will play out. What we are seeing IS NOTHING compared to the ancient prophecies, because we have already begun to change the paradigm. ( As Above, So Below. As Within, So Without.) There was a great deal of information removed from Revelations. We only got to read the disasters. In the Essene translation, from the Aramaic, John asks the angel, after seeing the catastrophes, how it can be changed. The angel tells John, "It takes but one person." Then John saw a totally different outcome, a new heaven and earth, no war, no dis-ease, no pain. He saw "living waters", a flow of love. He witnessed two different and powerful realities ~ disaster and a new beginning: living in Oneness. Other information removed was a Gospel of Mary. This tells of Mary and her mother, both trained Essenes raising Jesus in the Essene traditions. There was a Book of Visions, two books on Adam and Eve, secrets of the prophet Enoch ( not the same as the Keys of Enoch), and twelve books of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. After this, the remaining documents were condensed and changed to remove even more of the true meanings from the bible because the council did not understand it all and assumed the people wouldn't either. At this time the Essenes seemingly disappeared. We realize now that they dispersed throughout the world and many ended up in Tibet as well as other places. A closing thought. Become the Peace through thought, feeling and emotion/body. Create peace in your body. This is what is meant by " Your body is a Temple." Give the feeling of peace within you a name so that you can call it forth for yourself and your world. that peace becomes a template, the bridge, for this world and all worlds. May this Peace bring Oneness to all. May our thoughts bring healing to all Beings in all worlds. we give thanks for creating this healing. Inspired by information from Greg Braden In Light, Lynn http://www.worldtrans.org/creatots/gallery.html Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7021 From: Laura Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness "A Parable" "Comment: the boring office represents the state of just "being." The journey into the wilderness represents the process of Becoming." "Question: Why does the process of Becoming and creating our own changing reality take us o a higher level of enjoyment than just staying in the safe place away from the dualities?" "Please give us any other insights you have received from the parable." JJ, I cannot begin to express how deeply your story has spoken to me. I'm currently being guided by another person on the list and even though I've only been a part of this for about 2-3 weeks (the book, the teachings), and even though I haven't been able to read the past postings in full (I'm only up to about 150), I'm undergoing a part of my life that is proving to be not only challenging, but frightening and painful. It's been called the Dark Night of the Soul on this list, and I can't think of a better term for it. Like the gentlemen in your parable, I feel lost in a wilderness - small, helpless, and frightened. Like Moe, the temptation is unbelievably powerful to turn back into the safety of what I am and have lived in. But like the other two gentlemen, the pull is just as strong, if not stronger, to press forward. If nothing else, pure curiosity to see what lies deeper in the forest prevails and I know that soon I'll be taking another step forward into what appears to be an abyss. I've said it before - it's very frightening to undergo a major change in your life, not to know what is going to be in the next few weeks, much less the next few months or years. But that small still voice that I'm learning to listen to is telling me that it will be worth it, and in the end I won't regret it. The story also brings to light the importance of a working partner in this struggle to survive in Becoming. The mutual support is necessary in this endeavor, and a person may perish spiritually without the necessary support. laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7022 From: Laura Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness Hellooooo :) I'll give you my insight on this topic, and I've been thinking about it lately. In the bible, when the Higher Being (we'll call it God), spake of itself, it used various terms. Now those of us on the list who are familiar with linguistics can support or refute this, but God often spoke of itself as a Harsh Father Figure (the punisher figure, that demonstrated his power in the plagues upon Egypt), or the Nurturing Mother Figure. He (okay, I'm picking a pronoun and sticking with it here) is seen as a best friend who walks and talks with Adam and Eve in the garden and is seen as a Violent, Rash thinker in the Great Flood that Noah was involved in. And then we have the loving, caring Father in the most recent books of the bible that gave humanity his Son in order to bring light into the world again. And then.. we have other religions. I am not EVEN going to go into all the Gods and Goddesses that different religions worship, but I will point out that the Goddess figure was greatly worshipped in ancient times as the bringer of life. My personal belief is that the Higher Power (or God) has been the embodiment of all this over the course of humanity's existence on this earth. He acts and reacts according to the actions of his people, his children. He Becomes the nurturing mother, the giver of life and love or he may Become the father, willing to take matters into his hands and discipline a disobedient nation. As we move further into this next stage of human lifetimes, more people are beginning to see the spirit of the Lord flowing through each of these religions practiced on earth today (granted, there's not many who recognize this yet), and that as you serve the Highest, your life will accomplish its specific purpose here. My $.02.. Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7023 From: "Rapter" Subject: Moe is a wimp! I have to be honest with everybody! I never really thought Moe was a hero. I recognized so many qualities in Moe that reminded me of myself that I just had to defend his honour. I used every bit of sophistry I could muster to defend his position, just as I do my own. I knew J.J. would never buy Moe's argument that he was a true hero, but I had to try. I've been exposed as the true fraud I am. I could go on and try to counter J.J.'s response with some clever explanations of Moe's true motives, but I would just be indulging in a type of illusion. Moe's a wimp what can I say! Keith Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7024 From: Laura Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness Okay, I'm not a Karmic expert, but I will try to answer your questions.. "Hi JJ and all of you Keysters, I am confronted with my own fears! I have a few questions: What happened to Moe? Did he find another group and another chance?" There will always be someone willing to go into the unknown and Become, once that seed of restlessness and unsatisfaction with Being has been planted. I can almost guarantee that he's have found another group, and I also believe that there is always another chance. "What would have happened if the bear had eaten Phil and Richard? Would they have got a new chance in their next life?" I don't know if they would have needed another chance. Their mission was not necessarily to go explore and to go back home, but to reawaken that spirit inside of them that feels the need for change and growth. Even if they were eaten by a bear and not able to come back home, that lesson of the necessity of constant growth would have rang true in their souls and the mission of the exploration would have been accomplished. "As Phil was the initiator who persuaded the others to take the trip into the wilderness, does this mean that he is responsible for their destiny in there? Does Phil get bad karma if Moe is killed and good karma if he learns "to become" instead of "to be"? Or is it only Moe's own responsibility because he himself decided to follow Phil into the wilderness?" Okay, as I said, Karma is not my expertise, but I do believe that it's Moe's problem whether or not he Becomes and whether or not he gets lost in the wilderness. Most likely if Moe goes back, he in turn becomes the Initiator and will be responsible for leading his own party through the wilderness of Becoming. Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7025 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Moe is a wimp! "Moe's a wimp what can I say! Keith" LOL....Moe may or may not be a wimp....but this post definitely says that YOU are NOT a wimp yourself. It takes courage to come forth as you just have. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7026 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Response to Paula "Well, that's my theory anyway! In practice, I'm not much of an example. I stole my dog, Gemma, from her owner's backyard because she was being severely mistreated and underfed! Jennifer" Hi Jennifer Sounds to me like you have a very, very lucky little puppy dog. Please excuse the baby talk.....to me, helpless little animals are all babies. They are all so sweet. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin PS....I like big animals too.....mostly on screen or in a picture. LOL Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7027 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Journey Into The Wildrness Laura, i know well the fears and confusion you are experiencing, one phrase has helped me a lot "Walk Empty-Handed into the void. For me that mean to have faith that i am always safe in the arms of the Universe, then my oldest son took me to see one of those Indiana Jones movies telling me that i would love it because it displayed what i was always saying, i don't remember the title, but Indiana Jones was search for the Chalice (the cup that held wine for Jesus), Jones found himself at the edge of an abyss that he HAD to cross even though there was no bridge, but he had to BELIEVE that he could cross it, so, he stepped out into nothing and a bridge appeared instantly under his foot. This is exactly what those words have always meant to me, a way will appear if i just stop my fear, i grew up being afraid of everything, now i fear nothing, i am still uncomfortable about some tings, but no fear what is the worst thing than could happen to me? Death? i no longer believe in that, no let me re-state that, i KNOW there is no such thing. We all know what you feel, Laura, but as JJ did in Book 2, laugh at it, fear only has power because we give the power when we take it our power back it's like it was never there. Just a few thoughts, which is remarkabe for this early. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7028 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Essene Information Aley, forgive me for calling you Lynn, i told y'all it was early up here. love to all and wakefulness to me, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7029 From: Sharon and Richard Subject: Essene Information Thank you, Lynn, its always good to be reminded to let PEACE BE WITH YOU, i very much appreciate you posting this. love to all, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7030 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: A request for prayers "Hey Brian, I think it would be good if you told us your parents names. I find it easier to send Light to folks I "know". :) But till then, consider it done anyhow." Good point, John. My father's name is Michael (Mick) Weis. My mother's name is Rita. My father refers to my mother as "Reet" or "the short-haired kid". He refers to himself as "the fat kid". Though with the recent weight loss, that might not be the most apt description. And thank you all for your help! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7031 From: Laura Subject: Re: Journey Into The Wilderness "then my oldest son took me to see one of those Indiana Jones movies telling me that i would love it because it displayed what i was always saying, i don't remember the title, but Indiana Jones was search for the Chalice (the cup that held wine for Jesus), Jones found himself at the edge of an abyss that he HAD to cross even though there was no bridge, but he had to BELIEVE that he could cross it, so, he stepped out into nothing and a bridge appeared instantly under his foot." I remember that - Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail. Probably my favorite out of the IJ series. Jones had to have the faith in the writings that he would be supported to the other edge of the canyon, while there was an illusion before him that the support was not there. So it is, I guess, when you feel that you are alone in your journeys and yet there are others unseen that are assisting you in every step of the way:) "We all know what you feel, Laura, but as JJj did in Book 2, laugh at it, fear only has power because we give the power when we take it our power back it's like it was never there." Okay, now I'm positive I need to read book 2. *ponders if she can get $20 from her next paycheck* -Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7032 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness "Question: Why does the process of Becoming and creating our own changing reality take us o a higher level of enjoyment than just staying in the safe place away from the dualities?" It may be a little late to answer this question. I don't have the convenience of reading email on weekends anymore, but I'd like to comment anyway. How is diamond formed? It starts as a piece of coal buried underneath millions of pounds of heat and pressure. For thousands, even millions of years it remains under this pressure until it finally turns to a diamond and is extracted by us. It's the hardest substance on Earth, and also one of the most valuable and rarest. If you had a choice to Become a diamond (I am Becoming that which I Decide to Become) or stay a piece of coal (I am that I am), which would you choose? - Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7033 From: "Ananda" Subject: Re: OT Abuse of Life Dear Loves All in our world is a reflection of what we feel within We need Love Life We need Live Now All outside of ourselves is a mirror of how we treat ourselves Nothing can abuse us when we Love self and live in the Now ..in Love I Love All dearly! Ananda Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7034 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: Fwd: Bio. - Richard Note: forwarded message attached. Forgive me, i should have sent you this before, since we both learn from and enjoy this list. "i should introduce Richard. He was born in Thiensville (?), Wis. 62 years ago to strict Lutheran parents, raised on a farm, till his teen years then moved to Houston, Tx. finished school and went into the marine's, we met in 1960, married in '62, shortly thereafter he discovered he was more than his parent's & his church had taught him he was, while before this he loved me, but thought i was nuts, he admitted that maybe i was on a right-track, and dove head-first into discovering his spiritual side, he has had an interesting time dealing with EGO, he is getting the upper hand. He is sweet and kinder than he believes he is, since my stroke he has dedicated himself to me, still doing all the outdoor chores, now doing lots of the indoor jobs he's not always comfortable with, but doing them. What would surprise people about him, well it's not really about him, but his time. When he was a child the next door farm housed many German prisoner's of war. He would sneak over to talk to them, never telling the farm owner that they were given extra servings of beer, teaching himself compassion (as well as lying). He is 6' tall and a very nice looking man, he is a caring father, and a smitten grandfather. I can't remember what other questions you asked. We met Zia yesterday (Saturday) and that one is going to be a ball to write about, she is like a ball of lightning in a small room. She has squeezed about 15 life times into this one, she's also a sweetheart. Have a great day, darlin', love Sharon" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7035 From: Susi Subject: Diamonds & Being vs. Becoming Dave wrote: "How is diamond formed? It starts as a piece of coal buried underneath millions of pounds of heat and pressure. For thousands, even millions of years it remains under this pressure until it finally turns to a diamond And is extracted by us. It's the hardest substance on Earth, and also one of the most valuable and rarest. If you had a choice to Become a diamond (I am Becoming that which I Decide to Become) or stay a piece of coal (I am that I am), which would you choose?" I couldn't resist answering this. I would become which ever one was more useful at any given time. If I or others needed heat or something to make a written mark with then I would become the coal. If I or another needed to cut something or bend light I would become the diamond. Since I can become what ever I choose to become I am not limited by human thoughts of which holds the greater value but instead unlimited in my actions of becoming. The comparison of things as to which holds greater value is an ego based concept. Of course in this example I am limited because you have only given me the choice between being a diamond or a chuck of coal. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7036 From: Susi Subject: Fw: Out of Office AutoReply: Diamonds & Being vs. Becoming Tracey and Rick, I received the following in my mail box after posting to the list. I just thought you both might want to know so we all do not get this when we post. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" From: Tracey Hobson: "My assignment at Altera is up, much as I enjoyed being here. Please discontinue sending e-mails to me at this address. Thank you and goodnight!" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7037 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Moe is a wimp! "Rapter" writes: "I have to be honest with everybody! I never really thought Moe was a hero. I recognized so many qualities in Moe that reminded me of myself that I just had to defend his honour. I used every bit of sophistry I could muster to defend his position, just as I do my own. I knew J.J. would never buy Moe's argument that he was a true hero, but I had to try. I've been exposed as the true fraud I am. I could go on and try to counter J.J.'s response with some clever explanations of Moe's true motives, but I would just be indulging in a type of illusion. Moe's a wimp what can I say! Keith" Hi Keith, Moe made his own decision as the others did theirs. You were right, Keith, in that Moe is his own person. If Moe just followed the suggestions of others he would not only not have the experiences he had but would have set limits to his own experiences. Fear and withdrawal are as part of human experience or lot of every personality as determination and bravery. Every individual experiences sometimes and somehow all that is to be experienced while ramaining in earth life. To judge the face value of one's experiences in terms of others' doesn't tell of the intrinsic value of experiences. Phil was the way he was and so was Moe. Moe could not be the way Phil was and should not blame himself for being the way he was. His effort was not supposed to lie but in walking his own path as he did, and there is nothing wrong with that. Phil did what he did to experience what he was to experience. He would engage himself in another reactive situation if he looked down upon Moe or felt complacent about what he did. It would be unnatural for both Phil and Moe to act otherwise. Behavior of the personality is no more than the happening that expresses the will of the soul regardless whether the personality is aware of it or not. What gives life and meaning is the soul without which the personality is a dead body however glorious it may appear in front of other bodies. The only effort the personality has to make, when the time comes, to transcend its separative state of duality is recognize and accept its own reactions to the environment. As a result he would feel serene about the outcome of all that has transpired. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7038 From Paul Yu Subject: Re: Diamonds & Being vs. Becoming Beautifully put, Susi. Simply ecstatic! Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Susi wrote: "Since I can become what ever I choose to become I am not limited by human thoughts of which holds the greater value but instead unlimited in my actions of becoming. The comparison of things as to which holds greater value is an ego based concept. Of course in this example I am limited because you have only given me the choice between being a diamond or a chunk of coal." Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7039 From: Ed Fernandez Subject: Re: Heros Phil and Richard were heroes because, unhappy in their everyday tedium, they ventured out on a spiritual quest and reaped the subsequent rewards of wisdom and experience. Moe was a hero because, as Keith pointed out, he successfully was true to his own Self. He made his own decisions based on what he felt within. He made the right decisions at exactly the appropriate moments for his own evolution. (Should he have been convinced to go on with Phil and Richard, he would probably have been paralyzed by fear most of the time, resulting in a great liability for his friends.) However, Larry is another character not mentioned in the story. He is a hero also. Years before, Larry had undertaken the same voyage. He had been convinced that life was relatively meaningless and stagnant in the office where he worked. He looked around each day and didn't see his friends doing anything "spiritual"; he felt he needed to fulfill some kind of "mission". One day, Larry mustered up his courage and undertook the same Wilderness Encounter his friends would one day take. On his trip, he experienced wonderful things and scary things; he could feel the Supreme spiritual value of his journey and thought sadly of the people back at the office who were relatively wasting their lives by their inaction. He felt so happy to be in tune with Spirit; out in the Wilderness, he could see Spirit so clearly manifested in and around every struggle. Soon, he began to experience the good (or "God") in all the things that were going on, not just as an intellectual understanding, but as a tangible experience. He started feeling something quite new to him: Peace. This was a miracle. Eventually, after many relative ups and downs on his journey, Larry began to think of home. It was not fear that he felt, but rather a desire to return to his office with his newly-found peace; he wanted to share what he had learned and experienced with others not as fortunate as he. But the most wonderful surprise of all came when he did return to the office. What before appeared to be a place of stagnation and monotony now seemed to be an arena of rich spiritual activity. While more subtle in appearance than the outright Wilderness, he could see Spirit at work in every nuance and gesture, every mannerism and effort made by his co-workers. To his physical eyes, they seemed to be the same people he remembered from before, but to his new- found spiritual eyes, he could clearly see how they were growing in leaps and bounds. He had intended on preaching the necessity of the Wilderness experience to all, but instead realized that others had seemed to find peace without the need of so much drama. He finally understood that his trip was being accomplished by others in a different way, in depths he could never have fathomed previously. He could no longer honestly say to himself that one Way was superior to another. Larry finally realized that everyone around him was a hero. Love, Eddy Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7040 From: Ed Fernandez Subject: Re: Animals Hi, This was a wonderful reply, JJ. Thanks. It reminded me of an experience I had the other night at a video store. There were 2 people in the store, each with leashed dog. Dogs seem to always want to check each other out, and while they are often friendly to one another, sometimes they just want to tear into each other for no apparent reason. This night, the 2 dogs lurched at each other in surprising ferocity. Everyone was momentarily startled in the store, shocked to see 2 dog "owners" pulling the dogs apart and averting an otherwise savage outcome. About one minute had passed, and I walked by one of the dogs. I was warmly surprised to see him happy and grinning at me. I petted him, and he was full of joy - like nothing upsetting had ever transpired. I couldn't help but think about how differently a person would have (still) felt had s/he had the same experience. Sometimes it seems like humans and animals have much to teach one another. Hangin' my head out da window, Eddy Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7041 From: J J Dewey Subject: Hitler a Hero? Ed Wrote: "Moe was a hero because, as Keith pointed out, he successfully was true to his own Self. He made his own decisions based on what he felt within." This is indeed a strange definition of hero and it sounds like you, Paul, Susi and Zia are all in the same boat here. Everyone is a hero. Everybody does everything they do at just the right time. By your definition Hitler should be one of your greatest heroes for he was definitely "true to his own Self. He made his own decisions based on what he felt within,"just as you describe. I would like all four of you to answer this question for us. Was Hitler a hero? Please give an answer in a language we can understand. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7042 From: Laura Subject: Re: Heros and Villians? My comments on villians and heros "Phil and Richard were heroes because, unhappy in their everyday tedium, they ventured out on a spiritual quest and reaped the subsequent rewards of wisdom and experience." "Moe was a hero because, as Keith pointed out, he successfully was true to his own Self. He made his own decisions based on what he felt within. He made the right decisions at exactly the appropriate moments for his own evolution. (Should he have been convinced to go on with Phil and Richard, he would probably have been paralyzed by fear most of the time, resulting in a great liability for his friends.)" I have to disagree here. Being true to yourself and being paralyzed by fear of the unknown are two separate creatures. Change is a scary creature. Fear of change is worse. Take, for example, the battered wife and mother whose children see the horrors of domestic violence every day in their lives and who are familiar with the pains of abuse. Although the situation is wrong for her and her children, just as the tedium of the office was wrong for our brave crew, it is the safety and comfort of what is familiar that keeps her behind. When Moe was given the choice to move forward and enhance his life and his spirit, he instead took a step back and retreated into the comfort of what was not only wrong, but detrimental to his soul. Do you think that Rick & Phil were any more brave, any less frightened of the unknown that Moe was? I personally do not. The difference between Rick & Phil and Moe lies in the fact that Rick and Phil were willing to chance the danger, the unknown, in return for what they knew would be an incredible growth opportunity. Another note here - Rick and Phil were obviously working partners in this endeavor, despite the fact that it is a MM pairing instead of a MF pairing. I would wager that if Moe had stuck with the group, he and Curly would have paired as Rick and Phil did and all four of them would have come out alive and well and so much the better for it. Never underestimate the power of one, but heaven help you if you underestimate the power of two!!! "Eventually, after many relative ups and downs on his journey, Larry began to think of home. It was not fear that he felt, but rather a desire to return to his office with his newly-found peace; he wanted to share what he had learned and experienced with others not as fortunate as he. "He had intended on preaching the necessity of the Wilderness experience to all, but instead realized that others had seemed to find peace without the need of so much drama. He finally understood that his trip was being accomplished by others in a different way, in depths he could never have fathomed previously." "He could no longer honestly say to himself that one Way was superior to another. Larry finally realized that everyone around him was a hero." Eddy, that is beautiful :) I have to agree that one way is not the only way. Many people find growth in the soul as they become a parent, others are designed for tests and experiences that are more closely related to their personality. Although I don't really believe that everyone is a hero (which is a nice thing to believe, but I don't think it is true - perhaps it is the connotations of the word 'hero' that is bothering me), I believe there are different ways to get to that place which you are to arrive at in this lifetime. As the song says, "You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll be in Scotland before ye..." The thing is, although they are taking two different paths, they do - eventually - end up in the same place. Point being, the parable shows us that there is a spiritual deadness in the I AM. For those that - spiritually - clock in at 8 and out at 5 with the one hour lunch from 12-1 and the smoke breaks from 8:15 - 8:25 and 3:45 - 3:55 every day (or perhaps it's church from 11 - 12:15 every Sunday), the growth ends up grinding to a halt as people limit themselves to what they are learning and experiencing. It takes that quest into the spiritual unknown of the soul, the willingness to stretch yourself to the limits, if necessary, the courage to risk life and limb to reach that point at which your soul flies free and you weep with joy .. it takes this to grow into the higher elevation of the spiritual. There is no growth without the corresponding growth pains:) Laura Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7043 From: Laura Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? oooh.. Uhm.. JJ.. That sounded a bit harsh <:( But I think your point will go across quite nicely. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7044 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? Greetings to All, Thank you JJ for asking for clarification. Perhaps you have felt that I agreed with Keith (rapter's) post because I found it a beautiful post. What I saw was Keith speaking for himself, and that I saluted. I find so much enjoyable on this list, even though I may not agree with all the thoughts for myself, nor would I necessarily make the same choices. Your post was very obvious as to what you wanted us to understand, yet I saw in Keith's post an opportunity for him to express an insight about himself, and he saw it profoundly. That I salute in all of us, and do not see what he wrote as wrong, or that he would necessarily see Hitler as a Hero, although many did! My post was: Greetings to All, Way to go, Moe!!! And I would say way to go (?) rapter because without a signature I am lost these days with so many posts, and wonderful new faces and splendid ideas!! Forgive me not remembering at this moment the name to 'rapter',,, but I am rapt in your post!! In love and laughter, ZIA I was rapt because Keith chose to think outside the nine dots in a sense of what he was being given, and allowed himself to see within himself as a result. Many have done this on this particular post, and very creatively I might add from my humble opinion, and I have enjoyed it all! I feel like a part of me in my initial days on the list, was looking for right and wrong. I also sense this coming from you JJ, being the teacher to correct etc and that is your choice naturally. Having understood the story from your perspective, and if I had the time, I would give comments on everyone's posts. That's an impossibility for me and would just clutter up the list. Understanding another's perspective may also be from a past reflection in one's self and their own past experiences and therefore support of another through understanding, even if not perhaps the wisest choice for that one to make at the time, also opens the door to further communication and insight. Were I to do readings from the perspective that those that talked with me really made some dumb (or fear based) choices... few would be willing to listen to receive perhaps the perspective of other possible choices. It seems for me that I have moved into a level of compassion that bypasses judgment of people decisions, since they are already done anyway, and this allows me to perhaps inspire them from my own perspective without any need for judgment etc. Also this post is from Ed that is quoted below, so I am more than confused as to who we are talking about here, and perhaps I have misperceived the whole situation! Was Keith included in this, or Ed, or both? Whoever it was that created a whole new character, well added for me another dimension of themself, that I truly enjoy. In love and laughter, ZIA ps I find it delightfully funny that we often express to others 'don't give me any conflict because I don't like it' from one, or 'talk to me in a way that I can understand you', rather than us striving to understand them and allow that other's communication, and then strive to understand it in their words. Just my musings. pps You know I have seen it written that Hitler really thought he was being 'divinely guided' and that he was instrumental in bringing forth a new race of divine beings. In reading about Brigham Young(?) it seems he also thought he was divinely guided, and from what you have written obviously was not. History is so full of 'misguided' attempts and effects of 'beast/dark brothers', and to work with 'higher energies' is truly challenging, as well as living one's life partaking in the world. We need some success stories, where the negative had no influence whatsoever, now that would be inspiring! Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7045 From: Xavier Subject: (OT and long) Re: abuse of life Paula Mersing writes: "I'm not asking anyone whether animals will be in heaven. I just need help in understanding my own confusion and anger" Hi, Paula, and welcome to our tiny list;-) My reaction to what you say is that I noticed that anger and confusion arise in me when I don't follow the voice that calls for action. IT don't need you to be a hero, but it does demand you to openly speak out. Not to remain silent because of inner fears. On the other hand, expressing what you feel, not so much as condemning others action, but saying how it makes you feel, is enough to relieve the pressure and avoid anger and auto destruction through blocked feelings. This can lead to taking action, to helping some animals or humans, but it all comes from respecting your inner self, and allowing it (her) to live outwardly. Call for action, or call for intervention, you might say. There is somewhere a "directive of necessary intervention" if we want to keep our soul and grow with it;-) Now all that I just said is only a face of the coin (side;-). But this is where anger comes from, at first sight. My personal crisis situation is with children, my whole life I was upset at seeing children being abused. Because here in France, it is "normal" for people to abuse verbally their children in public, and whoever intervenes is seen as the wrong doer. (reread: I said verbally, but thinking of it, physically also) The other side of the coin is that it is my own feelings, displayed by abusing people, that made me suffer. Not so much the victim, as the how do you call it? The abuser. Now that I take care of my child, I do feel better on this, actually I managed Sunday to send love and support to a kid without interfering with her mother. There is prayer, trustful prayer. There is action, a gesture, discreetly. Trust, come from knowing you're able to help, and the universe is good and willing, is necessary. The crisis feeling, that opens gaps inside, is of inner crushing and distrust that you or the whole can fill the hole;-) Now I won't hide you that this is a major trouble for me, feeling someone is in dire need, and feeling myself unable to help. I spent years on that, and I still am. This is the healer type, I'm happy to suffer a bit from it if it eventually leads to being able to help. How much I would give for that, and yet I know that I am really resistant to give up my ego, ignorance, blindnesses etc...anger, comfort, fear..you name it, Pandora's box;-)) I needed to let go, in order to let trust appear in me. The hole/fill polarity. You see an abuse, you feel the abused needs help, okay. You feel unable to help without exposing you too much. This opens a gap. I can contemplate the gap, suffer from it, and let this last this way. I had such an experience a few days ago. A child, this one really crying, heavily, and the mother remaining distant and laughing with her friends. This time I remained stuck and didn't do a thing. But last time, sunday when it went well, I recall I had the gap, but someway I let it go, I accepted that I was lacking something, and someway trustfully admitted it, and refused to indulge in pain? Anyway, when you let a need open, and are trustful, the invisible world quickly acts to fill it, and I suddenly became aware (having forgot about this issue for some minute) that I had the means, I felt good about it, I knew we would find the way. I immediately sent this feeling to her (the kid), and some time after there was a gift situation where (it seemed like having been set for that) I could give her a hand. She then gave me a deep long look in the eyes;-)) And I felt she was thankful, and happy to see that help and understanding are of this world. Because this is the problem of not helping. To be abused by someone, is not to be abused by the world. But when you are among people, flocks of, and no one helps, it means to any child or animal that help simply doesn't exist. I remember that from my childhood. Happiness or care, or some kind of high respect (of the kind you love to carry inside yourself and give to others) disappear from the world. And from the past and from the future also. This is a slaying of the idea of it, this is much worse than being abused while knowing that somewhere else, good people exist. That's why being a keeper of the flame is a honourable job, but it asks to have no fears about your own person. Only maturity seems to help me recover that divine carelessness;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7046 From: Sylvia Miller Subject: Re: Flow and Duality I believe that I understand the "flow" Paul is referring to, and I must refer back to my previous post explaining the different flows of energy in the human spinal cord. Let's not get caught up in technicalities of the word "flow". Everything is flowing and in constant motion, EVERYTHING. It depends on one's perspective in relation to it. A rock is flowing, though it appears solid. Millions of molecules are zipping and zinging through space within the apparently solid matter. Back to the "flow" in question. There is a flow beyond dualities, that is to say, UNAFFECTED by dualities. The intuition is a good example of this. It isn't concerned with anything other than it's purpose: to guide us to our highest good. This is what I imagine God to experience constantly. The ocean can be a good analogy to demonstrate this. There are many parts to the ocean, although it is one body. The waves can be thrashing and violent, there could even be a hurricane, yet the bottom of the sea remains calm, untouched by the activity. And yet, it still "flows" and is in constant motion. Hope this is a ray of sunshine to part the clouds, Sylvia Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7047 From: "Tracey Hobson" Subject: Re: Moe Is A Wimp! LOL - you all crack me up! And you do recall that CURLEY IS A DOPE! Mark, thanks for the newsflash! That was a real LOL-er! I've been interviewing, you all... just wanted to keep you up to date. I am enjoying my (hopefully) few days of unemployment, coming here to the library, interviewing again tomorrow, getting a haircut, picking up dry cleaning... yada yada yada... how I get all this stuff dome with working and commuting too mystifies me sometimes! Thanks for all the light, prayers, and support, and Brian, please know it's comin' back at ya, and your parents. xo, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7048 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? It all depends how hero is defined. I believe you accepted the definition given here for the moment, JJ, that hero is one who is true to themself. Please let us stick to this definition in this discussion and not confuse it with what is ordinarily known as a hero, such as a war hero, which has nothing to do but with what appears in the eyes of the public. Public opinion is of personalities which unless aligned with the soul are apparently opposed to the soul. One who is true to themself is true to their soul even if they are not aware of the soul as the initiator of their spiritual life. The spiritual will so permeates the soul and thereby the personality that the personality though free to deviate from its own norm is fundamentally true to themself. The truer the personality is to themself the closer the personality gets to the soul and the better it complies with the spiritual will. From this perspective everyone is true to themself and is a hero including Hitler. Hitler is essentially as much an expression of the spiritual will as anyone from the stock of humanity. "From the perspective of the separative duality however Hitler and all those who have defied the moral standard of man-made righteousness would be considered as criminals or sinners. They are believed to be criminals or sinners and there is no doubt about the presence of this belief. The question is what this belief is reflective of. The truth of living oneness or the truth of separative duality?" So you see it is not a question of yes or no. It is rather a question of one reality or dualistic illusion. Hitler is a criminal if viewed as one or the other in the dualistic context. He is a true to self hero if viewed as an expression of the one life or reality. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7049 From: Xavier Subject: OT Re: Heros J J Dewey writes: "Excalibur was a symbol of the Rod of Initiation held by the Ancient of Days." Dammit I knew it. I was not wrong after all;-)) lol Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7050 From: Ed Fernandez Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? Hi JJ and everyone, I had no intention of pursuing this thread any longer, but since I have been asked a direct question, I will respectfully answer as best as I can... "I would like all four of you to answer this question for us. Was Hitler a hero?" Is Hitler less a part of God than me? No. Our "Dark Brothers" are fulfilling a very necessary - albeit odious - task. I may NOT desire their presence and actions, and I may NOT even understand why they HAVE to be here, but we know they ARE here because of God's perfect design. In fact, they ARE God! They are playing certain roles in this Grand Play and I simply do not have ALL of the information available to me at this time to serve as JUDGE. Therefore, in my OPINION, ANY part of Love that would choose to come to this very dense place, and take on a less than desirable role (with Fear leading the small self and with inevitable personal repercussions) is necessarily a hero. Sorry. This is a "big picture" perspective, not a politically correct one, and it does NOT (repeat NOT) mean that I condone Hitler's motives and actions. (I'm taking the "high path of resistance" on this one...) Tragedy has served to teach us about ourselves, and the despicable lessons of Nazi Germany have brought many people to oppose such evil BOTH within and without! For instance, it has led many researchers and psychologists to understand and teach the pathology of "Group Think" phenomenon, as well as shedding much more light on the existence of our own "shadow selves", etc. We are, in some ways, indebted to the teachers and to the negative role models from which we learn. What I learn in a very dramatic way is: Let me remove any and all planks from MY own eyes! Further, what difference is there between the genocide instigated by Hitler's regime, and those of "heroes" like Christopher Columbus (whose ideological/religious indoctrination PURPOSELY resulted in the deaths of millions and millions of indigenous peoples in the Americas)? In the end, the concept of hero is subjective - a function of one's perspective....or "which part of the picture you are looking at". When you are a child, a hero is limited to, say, astronauts and actors and athletes. When you grow a little older, you recognize the unsung heroes, quietly going about their heroic business and unrecognized by society as a whole. Should one grow wiser still, I'm certain one would find heroes in places contrary to one's initial impressions. Verily, one cannot dispute the fact that even one so scarred and spiritually crippled as Hitler accomplished some good things for others (unrelated to war and racism). Finally, whatever way I judge Hitler, I must judge his Source FOR ALLOWING IT. Otherwise, what would God be but a grand Pontius Pilate washing His/Her hands of everything? Love and intuition must guide me past the limitations of simple labels. From my perspective, and in my opinion, one can justifiably view BOTH positive AND negative role models as "heroes". Ultimately, I must concur with a quote from the "Conversations With God" books: "I have sent you nothing but angels." I believe that "A Course In Miracles" also supports this view. But far more compelling to me is the Voice of Spirit within me, assuring me that this is so. Peace Be With You, Eddy P.S. I was wondering how Christ would define a "hero". I think he might say something like: "it is the servant"...or "it is the least among you which is the Greatest of all"... Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7051 From: "Tracey Hobson" Subject: Welcome Paula (and also OT) Glad you are with us... you hit a nerve with me. I am an animal lover (although my roommate's ferret is a true test for me - too into everything and too destructive for my taste! Ferrets are just not my "cup of tea."). I can only say what I would do if I saw a dog being beaten by it's master - get a witness and drop a dime on the guy - call the cops. I would not mess around for a minute. Talking to the guy may have only caused him to think "oh what a busy body." People tend to pay attention when those "authorities" get involved. Anyway, that's my $.02 worth... and good luck with the kitties! xo, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7052 From: Lorraine Deckard Subject: replys Hi guys, Just a couple things really quick. Paula, welcome. I also have a hard time watching abuse. I look away during those scenes in the movies and I haven't watched the news in 9 years. If I have to witness abuse I feel like it is happening to me. Because I had to find a way to get through this maybe I can help you too. I say a little mantra to myself, "I forgive you for not being what I want you to be." See, I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, "I think I'll hurt someone today. I think I'll mess up really bad." I believe people everywhere live up to the highest they know. So, if it becomes apparent to me they don't know much then I just think, "Forgive them, they know not what they do." And it helps. Now for JJ. First let me say that I am a Mormon. I have been active off and on since I was 11 years old and JJ has never said anything that I couldn't swallow. Till today. I have been through every temple ceremony there is and there is nothing in there about slitting throats! I have received a lot of light and knowledge from the temple ceremonies and even now, when I go, there is nothing there that would surprise anyone. It seem a little like kindergarten to me now and I smiled when I thought about what they would say if I told them what I knew but rest assured there is NOTHING about throat slitting! Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7053 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Flow and Duality Sylvia Miller writes: "I believe that I understand the "flow" Paul is referring to, and I must refer back to my previous post explaining the different flows of energy in the human spinal cord. Let's not get caught up in technicalities of the word "flow". Everything is flowing and in constant motion, EVERYTHING. It depends on one's perspective in relation to it. A rock is flowing, though it appears solid. Millions of molecules are zipping and zinging through space within the apparently solid matter." "Back to the "flow" in question. There is a flow beyond dualities, that is to say, UNAFFECTED by dualities. The intuition is a good example of this. It isn't concerned with anything other than it's purpose: to guide us to our highest good. This is what I imagine God to experience constantly. The ocean can be a good analogy to demonstrate this. There are many parts to the ocean, although it is one body. The waves can be thrashing and violent, there could even be a hurricane, yet the bottom of the sea remains calm, untouched by the activity. And yet, it still "flows" and is in constant motion." Hi Sylvia, I am amazed at the way you describe the flow. Marvelous, simply marvelous! I am speechless. Thank you for sharing, Sylvia. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7054 From: Susi Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? I do not feel that anyone of the people in the parable were heroes simply for following a desire to adventure out into the unknown! Did they save the world, did they enlighten anyone else, in my opinion no they did not. They planted a thought into Moe's head to take his own adventure but I did not follow the threads on this closely enough and besides it is a make believe situation while I've been busy trying my best to live real life ones. For that matter I can't think of anyone that I would call a hero in this lifetime. But if it makes you or anyone else comfortable to put me in a boat with Paul or Zia I would readily jump in with them and the light that we would make would be blinding to most. If at any time I felt the desire to exit the boat because of a difference of opinion I am positive that neither of these two would condemn me for my beliefs! Ed I have not heard enough from to readily jump in a boat with and in utilizing my discernment here I would have to decline until I knew more ;-) "By your definition Hitler should be one of your greatest heroes for he was definitely "true to his own Self. He made his own decisions based on what he felt within," just as you describe." Reply: Please show me the description that I gave that lead you to believe your above statement. Hitler brought much harm to others and hid many secrets. Was he true to himself or was he true to his fears? Personally I feel he feared a lot and trusted none not even himself and that is at the core of his actions. In my opinion since you asked I feel he was a COWARD in the biggest sense of the word for he feared another nationality or race of people so much so that he felt it necessary to attempt to wipe them off the face of the earth all together therefore ensuring his dictatorship. My soul forgives you for insinuating that I would call such a being a hero but I must admit my physical self is appalled that you acting as our teacher would even attempt to place my name in the ranks of one who would idolize that lost soul you called Hitler. What a farce! Now having said that I need to clarify for you that my physical self has also forgiven you because my soul can and since I strive for wholeness in this lifetime we are as one, not separate so you are wholly forgiven. "I would like all four of you to answer this question for us. Was Hitler a hero?" As I tried to state clearly above No he was not. But this is just my opinion and since I did not study history or past teachers and masters I hold little knowledge on the subject. I strive to live in the present and make my future world a better place for me and hopefully others around me but we all have different opinions of what is better so mine might be better while another's ends up worse. I would not however intentionally harm another unless my life or a loved ones depended on it. "Please give an answer in a language we can understand." JJ, I spent several hours pondering my response to you and even wrote quite a bit on it then I took a ten count and deleted it. I wanted to lash out at you for badgering me but I understand you need examples to get your points across. It is like a parent trying to teach a child, we often times get angered at them and if we do not sit and ponder our actions prior to disciplining we could end up doing more harm than good. So I will just say thank you for sharing your knowledge! Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7055 From: Jean Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness Rick, I love your posts, they are so simple to understand and too the point, sometimes they help me to "see" clearly.") My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7056 From: Jean Subject: Re: Journey into the Wilderness Thank you Laura for your response, something for me to ponder.....:) My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7057 From: Jean Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? I know I am not one of the four that was asked to answer that question but I would like to give my 2 cents: Hitler was by no means a hero, imo he was evil, no doubt there, Was he true to himself? I don't think so, I believe that the "dark" side is a side of evil, deceit, confusion. I believe that it distorts the truth, for some people they are so weak that they let it control them and what they do..... Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7058 From: Jean Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? J.J, I would like to get the books that you have available for the Immortal, can you send me an email telling me what I need to do? I feel I will be more "caught up" if I have those books to read.... Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7059 From: Jean Subject: Re: Moe Is A Wimp! Tracey on this interview thing, I would like to be interviewed .....? Is it too late to jump in? Jean Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7060 From: Mark Williams Subject: Prayers Brian Weis writes: "Hi gang. I have seen what the prayers of this group can do, so I am submitting prayer requests for my father." Brian, know that your father and you are both in our thoughts and prayers. Mark D Williams voxdoc@yahoo.com http://surfnow.to/singingvoice Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7061 From: Jean Subject: Fwd: Sunday Article Pretty Packages By Bruce Williams Once while praying and seeking God, the Lord told me to do something strange. Dressed in cut off blue jeans, I had been laying around the house, praying and reading the Bible I hadn't even shaved. God told me to go shower, shave, and put on my best suit. My first thought was that this was very strange. I stood under the shower with the water streaming down over my head and the thought came to me, there was a symbol here. The water was cleansing my body as it flowed over me. The blood of Jesus cleanses my soul as it flows over me. I got out of the shower and began to dress. I took out my best and most expensive suit, neatly laying it on the bed. A heavily starched shirt seemed appropriate and I chose the best and brightest tie I had to match my suit. Slipping socks and underwear from my drawer, I began to dress. When finished, I looked in the mirror and saw a smartly dressed man. If God wanted a clean, well-dressed man, I was the guy. I knelt down and began to pray thinking of how the priests in the old testament had to wash themselves before going into the Holy of Holies. I had done that. Now it was time to do it in the spirit. I began to confess my sins to God and ask His forgiveness. This is called judging ourselves. The Bible says if we do that, we will not be judged. I finished confessing my faults to God and then a small voice said to me, "You sure look good on the outside. Best suit, starched shirt, good looking tie, great shoes and belt." Then I thought about my socks. When I took them from the drawer I noticed a hole in them. I hadn't thought anything at all about it till now. I knew they had a hole in them and so did God. I thought about my underwear that had a worn and torn place in them. I knew it was there. So did God. From my outside appearance I looked good and smelled good. Underneath, there were some flaws. Looking at me from the outside you would have never thought of my torn and tattered socks and underwear. You see it is not the outward appearance that God looks at, but the condition of the heart. You may have a facade that appears alright to everyone, but you know what is on the inside and so does God. Examine your heart now and let the Holy Spirit point out your flaws. Then judge them as flaws and allow God to dress you in His wardrobe. Remember, Jesus told the Pharisees that they were like the graves. On the outside the grass was neatly trimmed and beautiful, but on the inside they were full of dead bones. Many things come in pretty packages. What is the content of your package? This article is sent to you courtesy of CLEARLY SEEN the Christian Magazine. Similar articles of hope and encouragement are sent out each Sunday. If you wish to becoming a recipient of this free Sunday evening letter E-mail ark@arkpub.com Simply type article in the subject line and each Sunday evening you will receive the current article. Please forward to anyone you wish. Bruce may be reached at bcw@arc.net Nina at ninaark@hotmail.com www.clearlyseen.com www.arkpub.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7062 From: Jean Subject: Fwd: Sunday Article Editor's Note: Repeat post of No. 7061 Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7063 From: "Aley" Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? Oh No I had tried to stay away from this thread but the sentence "true to his own self" (Geez I hate getting into these discussions..)but what are we calling "self" JJ would you mind defining self for me. Thank you Aley Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7064 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? Paul Yu writes: "It all depends how hero is defined. I believe you accepted the definition given here for the moment, JJ, that hero is one who is true to themself. Please let us stick to this definition in this discussion and not confuse it with what is ordinarily known as a hero, such as a war hero, which has nothing to do but with what appears in the eyes of the public. Public opinion is of personalities which unless aligned with the soul are apparently opposed to the soul." Actually, I believe that JJ might be looking for a definition of "hero". If we look at the archtype of hero (the guardian and champion of light), then the hero is defined as follows: "The Hero comes forth from adversity. Triumphing over the forces of darkness he cuts through confusion with the sword of discrimination and clarity. Going alone into the the unknown the Hero creates new pathways for humanity; overcoming obstacles and confronting dangers, he gives himself in service to a higher cause and makes safe the way for the multitude to tread." Given this, we see that there is much more than 'being true to one's own self'. And then we clearly see that Hitler can in no way be considered a hero. But... it is interesting to ponder. Would there currently be an Israel set in the midst of Arab nations if Hitler had not gone on his rampage against Jews? I mean, did his heinous acts give rise to the consciousness that a Jewish state was needed and had to be restored? Now, in no way am I saying that "the ends justify the means"! I just like to ponder causes and effects every now and then. And you should all know that you are MY heroes! : ) (Well, maybe not Curly) Ciao bello... ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-20/7065 From: J J Dewey Subject: Communion Through Words Susi, For some reason I thought you called Moe a hero. I'm sorry I misread you and I'm glad Hitler is not a hero to you. I figured that anyone who thought that Moe was a hero would probably not rule out the possibility that Hitler was a hero and sure enough Paul and Ed see Hitler as a hero by some strange maneuvering of thought and the English language that is foreign to my thought process. One of the problems is that we do not seem to be using any standard dictionary definition of words. Let me make a declaration for this list. Hear yea hear yea. From now on we use regular orthodox earthly definitions of words (unless otherwise specified) so we can maintain a semblance of communication. Red means red not esoteric blue. Up means up, not sideways in another dimension or standing still in an ultimate reality. Planet means planet, not dried out sun. Good and evil means something going on now as humanity understands it, not a vision from an ultimate reality that we no nothing about. Here's what my computer dictionary says about hero in the context I used it: "A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life." Now Moe does not fit this dictionary definition and Hitler certainly does not and to maintain that Hitler is a hero either takes extreme sophistry or an attitude that is looking for strong argument and polarization in the dualities. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7066 From: Rick Audette Subject: Heroes Well, where does the word hero come from, I wonder. As usual, my little pocket dictionary offers little help. It says 1) a mythological or legendary figure of great strength or ability 2) a man admired for his achievements or qualities 3) the chief male character in a literary or dramatic work 4) a submarine sandwich. I can see how one could confuse Hitler with three out of four of those definitions, if that's all you have to go on. However, what you find in a dictionary, by way of spelling and definition, is largely based on popular use and ain't necessarily gospel. Let me take a moment to consider it's primitive roots. I have long suspected that the word hero and hurrah are from the same source. The letter H denotes the breath, spirit, cry or essence of a thing. In Hebrew, hayah means to become and havah is to breathe, in the sense of existing. Ra would seem to come from that which is perceived or experienced. The Egyptian god, Ra, is represented by a hieroglyph of an oval sitting on the tails of two lions, facing away from each other. The oval is the great, unknowable, unseen source of all and the lions are the male, longing for the future and female longing for past, being kept from venturing in their respective directions by the oval that pins them down. In Eckankar, Hu is a love song to God. From the Rosicrucians we get that ah is a universal sound for power and R usually has a masculine connotation signifying control or leadership. From all of this I gather that a Hero would be one on his way to becoming a godly leader. There will always be some that can find ways to interpret the above to fit a black hole like Hitler, but to me he is the antithesis of a hero. It was pointed out that I have asked for people to speak in simple terms. It's not because I can't understand or read between the lines. You can see for yourselves what a stir we have gotten ourselves into over such seemingly simple terms as "wasting time" and "heroes". In our quest for oneness, it would profit us all to choose words that mean the same to all and give those that are speaking the benefit that they are using words aimed at uplifting us. Group 1 types see only the black and white of words and group 2's see only gray, letting words mean everything and nothing. Let us all strive to be group 3's and walk the middle path which leads to the greatest understanding and unity. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com A smile is a curved line that sets things straight. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7067 From: Mark Williams Subject: RE: Communion Through Words To ALL: I had an intuition that somehow all of the discussion surrounding the concepts of "flow, duality, becoming, being, Moe, Rich & Phil" were circling around the keyword of "decision" and were soon going to crystallize into clarity. Actually I thought I had understood "decision" as the first keyword, but now I am not so sure. I am hoping that JJ will clarify, but in the meantime I will make a stab at my own current understanding. In THE IMMORTAL, JJ says that "John said that I AM THAT I AM is a mistranslation." I went back to Strong's and discovered that the Hebrew word used in Ex 3:14 is 1961 "hayah" pronounced "haw-YAW" with a circumflex "^" over both "a's" in the transliteration to Roman letters. Quoting Strong's, "hayah; a prim. root [comp. 1933]; to exist, i.e., be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)...." [A copula is a linking verb.] Is this correct or is this one of the famous yes-and-no type answers. It would seem that there is a dual meaning and that both translations into English, "being" and "becoming" can be correct. The NIV uses, "I AM WHO I AM" but in a footnote it curiously states, "or, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE." Now "I AM WHO I AM" would seem to mean a state of "being." "I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE" could be seen as a simplified statement of "I AM BECOMING WHAT I DECIDE TO BECOME." So once again we seem to have dualism: God, the ONE Supreme "BEING," evolving and "BECOMING". Is this a valid interpretation? I am also still unclear somewhat as to how I am "DECISION". I can see myself as the result of a decision or as one who makes decisions. But decision itself seems to be an action that implies the preexistence of a decisionmaker such as consciousness, though I remember from THE IMMORTAL that consciousness was considered a vehicle like a camera. Unfortunately I loaned my copy of THE IMMORTAL to a friend and now cannot correctly recall if the book said that "decision equals consciousness plus attention" or "consciousness equals decision plus attention." JJ, I have read the book twice and all of your posts in the archives and still do not have the understanding on this I believe is possible. Will you please clarify this? Sincerely, Mark D Williams voxdoc@yahoo.com http://surfnow.to/singingvoice PS: I also vaguely recall a post asking for volunteers to proofread or edit. Are you still looking for someone to do this? Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7068 From: Mark Williams Subject: SOT: Hitler & Balfour Brian Weis writes: "Would there currently be an Israel set in the midst of Arab nations if Hitler had not gone on his rampage against Jews? I mean, did his heinous acts give rise to the consciousness that a Jewish state was needed and had to be restored?" Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 and Fuehrer in 1934, whereas the Balfour Declaration favoring the founding of a Jewish nation in Palestine was issued in 1917. So it would seem the consciousness was there prior to Hitler. And regardless the definition of the word "hero," I for one definitely would not want Hitler to be the wind beneath my wings, thank you very much. Mark Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7069 From: Mark Williams Subject: Archives Please pardon the plethora of posts. JJ, I just reviewed the Archives, particularly 151 I AM BECOMING, and 230-234 on Decision, thinking I may have missed something. All of these are helpful but do not seem to completely answer my questions: 1) Is I AM WHO I AM is a valid translation of the Hebrew but perhaps not as deep or meaningful, and 2) WHO OR WHAT ARE WE? You mention that Decision is the keyword and that "Decision itself is not you but is an effect proceeding from you. What is the real you is the essence within you, the operating self existent power that makes decisions. This power of decision and decision are two different things." All of with which I agree. But the answer still seems incomplete. Have I missed the answer in yours or someone else's post somewhere? Mark voxdoc@yahoo.com http://surfnow.to/singingvoice Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7070 From: Xavier Subject: Re: Follow The Highest J J Dewey writes: "For instance, how can two points exist as Paul says and have a flow between then, yet have no space between them? This is beyond our understanding, but we are supposed to accept it. Why accept that which you do not understand? Even in order to have two points or two of anything there has to be the illusion of two. Thus there is no such thing as two of anything without creation through the principle of illusion." Paul Yu writes: "We do the best we can to understand and our understanding is based on our intuition of the soul rather than on our reasoning. The rational mind cannot think without reference to time, space and motion as we know them. Yet intuition does show us some things beyond reason and concepts. Duality, for instance, is the initial point of differentiation of the one life. Being differentiated the dual aspects of the one life have never really left the one life. Duality remains to be one. Duality therefore is not to be identified as illusion." "Duality is like the two aspects of Adam: Adam and Eve, the latter being the part of Adam which was recognized by Adam as "flesh of my flesh". The two aspects make up one Adam. When separation took place and Eve was taken out of Adam illusion was created. Illusion came with the birth of the woman as separated from the man. This symbolism is indicative of the fact that illusion was produced by the human as a gigantic thoughtform so cutting through every thought that the rational mind is thoroughly imbued with separateness." "But we have our intuitive mind to work closely with the soul to reach the heavens of the ultimate reality or the one life." Illusion is not only in being too separative, and being solved by intuitive mind. It is also in being too anti-separative, and remaining too much in artificial oneness. In fact, the soul uses whatever means available to complete and reveal our illusions. If your are too in the mind, it may use emotions. If you are too emotional it will stimulate the mind (maybe, if it is the best option). If you use too much oneness, anti-dualistic, then the soul will show you that "separateness" reveals reality better than your acquired habit of avoiding it. I am coming to a time in my life, where i am turning towards matter, if I work well, I might end up being a businessman in some years from now;-) In the past, I needed the contrary, but now I let the pendulum go too far on the side of "spirit". Spirit is matter as you say, and the real is everywhere, including in profane simple things, you know it. It is good to have soul contact, but the real thing is to have soul and matter contact;-) lol Let's train in matter contact, ok friends? lol Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7071 From: J J Dewey Subject: Comments Lorraine, There have been several revisions of the wording and execution of the Mormon Temple ceremony. The last was in 1990 and the one before that was some time in the 30's. Then there were some changes before that. The church has become increasingly sensitive to the controversial wordings of their ceremonies and have sought to make them more palatable to its members. Before the 30's there was a definite wording by the member that he would allow his throat to be slit from ear to ear if he revealed the temple secrets. Later the church took this wording out and only the physical gesture of the cutting of the throat was made, but because the wording was omitted many Mormons were not aware of what they were agreeing to. Finally in 1990 they made another revision and now the wording and symbols seem fairly harmless. Nevertheless the Dark Brothers did manage creep this destructive oath in the early church and the mission to neutralize the spirituality of the church was accomplished. Now that the church is spiritually neutralized the Dark brothers are unconcerned what the church does with its ceremony. The latest revisions of the ceremony are posted at: http://www.california.com/~rpcman/compare.htm Mark, Looks like you are going to be a regular around here. Welcome. You have asked a question about Decision that would probably sidetrack us for a month if we answered thoroughly. I did give our some more information on it which is in the archives. Did you read that? If not I'll see if I can locate it for you. On the I AM BECOMING, vs I AM I will say this. The early Hebrews wrote for intuitive interpretation more than is the case with modern languages. This is why even scholars cannot agree on the translation of many phrases. The translation in The Immortal was I AM BECOMING THAT WHICH I DECIDE TO BECOME. The word "decide" was not in that original phrase, but many of the early Hebrews received the correct meaning through intuition, something scholars do not use, but as you say the I AM BECOMING part is compatible with 20th century scholarship. The name of God was written without the vowels for the same reason. They were filled in through the intuition and when the intuition was lost the name of God was lost with it. Between Consciousness Attention and Decision, Decision was the first to manifest, but then was sustained by the triangular energies of the three. The first decision that caused us to manifest and entities was "to be or not to be." The first decision that was a little like throwing the dice which created the impulse to be. This impulse pulsated around the first duality which was the possibility of becoming vs. not becoming or eternal pralaya. The fact that we exist or that God or anything exists is the greatest miracle of all and boggles the mind of the highest initiate. Jean I believe I answered your question in past archives. Have you read through them yet? We had quite a few discussions about the perfection of God and how the translations of it were incorrect. Our latest discussion on simple things like heroes and the fact that it is difficulty to reach harmony on even something so outrageous as to whether Hitler was a hero or not demonstrates the difficulty in reaching oneness as the molecule demands. If we cannot all agree that Hitler was not a hero how will be able to agree on the things of the Spirit? I led us up to the most outrageous item I could think of to see if there would still be disagreement and there was. It did not matter what item I picked. Here were other possibilities that I could have used? Would it be a good thing if a doomsday bomb destroyed half the earth tomorrow? How about all the earth? Is torturing animals a good thing? Was Tim McVey really a good guy? Was he a hero as the Oklahoma City bomber? I started with drug addiction, but it wouldn't matter what I asked. A first grade class would probably be unified on the answers, but not us. We've got to not let too much knowledge confuse us. Of course, we all realize that good comes out of evil, but that does not make evil good, it only makes the overall plan good. Jesus said: "Offenses must come but woe to him by whom they come." In other words, evil will come, but don't let yourself be the agent of it or you'll regret it. The only answer to achieve oneness is to reach the soul together as a group. Only by doing this and being willing to listen to the inner voice will oneness be achieved. Ed, I'm sorry to pick on you so much her since you are new, but I felt the need to make several points and some of your words were the center of those points. And Paul, I realize that you have done much study and contemplation of the ancient wisdom and I agree with you about 95% of the time. Our main difference is on emphasis and a few other details as Glenys surmised. And Susi. I seem to be getting under your skin lately. Please do not give me hat power. See me as harmless and I will be. And Zia, It looks like we saw Keith's statement in the same light now you explained yourself. Whether or not he took himself seriously on Moe being a hero I must admit it was a creative twist. And Viggi, great poem. I liked Chris's last poem also. I still haven't had time to get the next chapter posted, but I assure you it will come soon. Let us sing the Song and renew our attempts at oneness through the soul. Love to you all, JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7072 From: Jean Subject: Fwd: Thought for Today I hope this does not offend anyone...It was not meant to but it is so true....... There was an old man, a boy and a donkey. They were going to town and it was decided that the boy should ride. As they went along they passed some people who thought that it was a shame for the boy to ride and the old man to walk. The man and boy decided that maybe the critics were right so they changed positions. Later, they passed some more people who thought that it was a real shame for that man to make such a small boy walk. The two decided that maybe they both should walk. Soon they passed some more people who thought that it was stupid to walk when they had a donkey to ride. The man and the boy decided maybe the critics were right so they decided that they both should ride. They soon passed other people who thought that it was a shame to put such a load on a poor little animal. The old man and the boy decided that maybe the critics were right so they decided to carry the donkey. As they crossed a bridge they lost their grip on the animal and he fell into the river and drowned. THE MORAL OF THE STORY ..... IF YOU TRY TO PLEASE EVERYONE, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY LOSE YOUR ASS. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7073 From: Jean Subject: Fwd: [DivineBeingsOfLight] The Final Analysis The Final Analysis People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway. If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway. If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway. If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway. What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway. If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; Be happy anyway. The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway. Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; It never was between you and them anyway. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7074 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Communion Through Words J J writes: "Planet means planet, not dried out sun." Hi JJ and all This one pulled a chuckle out of me. But I a really glad to see this post Years ago my Dad told me that "a spade is a spade" and any other description would not be entirely correct". There is also the old adage, "a rose by any other name is still a rose". Sometimes things can seem hardhearted but in the long run it is better to face a problem "square on" to get to the root. It's not easy to accept what we see or hear or feel at times, however, by searching our inner selves we can find and make corrections that are of value to ourselves. Of course, it starts with desire, decision, intent, compassion and on down the list of principles. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7075 From: Norman Fleshman Subject: Re: Communion Through Words Applauding you, JJ. J J Dewey wrote: "Susi, For some reason I thought you called Moe a hero. I'm sorry I misread you and I'm glad Hitler is not a hero to you. I figured that anyone who thought that Moe was a hero would probably not rule out the possibility that Hitler was a hero and sure enough Paul and Ed see Hitler as a hero by some strange maneuvering of thought and the English language that is foreign to my thought process." "One of the problems is that we do not seem to be using any standard dictionary definition of words. Let me make a declaration for this list." "Hear yea hear yea. From now on we use regular orthodox earthly definitions of words (unless otherwise specified) so we can maintain a semblance of communication." Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7076 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Seeking clarity Jean - I wrote most of the following before reading your post which partly asks what I too am asking, but in a far more concise, easy to read way! I have also added to my post below as I read other people's posts today..... I suppose it's a bit late to bring up a reservation I have had but I figure I best get clarification on it now before proceeding further, even if it does make me sound dumb. I do not see 'being' as either an inactive "sitting on one's arse" or as "going with the flow". But 'Becoming' has always sounded linear to me, like a process of going from one place to another, from now to the future. I know this is how we, as dualistic creatures live, but I never thought of the Soul or the Spirit in that way. I think of the Soul as being in the 'now', a state where we are conscious of past and future, not as discrete entities separated in time, but as happening. WE put the borders and the stop/starts in between life and death and past and future, and WE punctuate "process" (flow?) with results and reactions and beginnings and ends. Is there anything wrong with aspiring to be in a state of being with Soul or oneness with God? Such a state does not preclude action, in fact it does not exclude anything. It is inclusive. 'Being' includes Becoming, flow, stasis, duality, involution, devolution, evolution, any ution, it seems to me. And Balance, a characteristic of the Soul, is not a single point in the middle but is able to encompass everything from one extreme to the other, from one polarity to the other. When I think of 'being', I think of acting rightly in the moment, responding appropriately, and being present to what is. I could never figure out in the past why it was said that "I AM that I AM" instead of just "I AM", but after reading The Immortal (and JJ will probably have a fit at this!) now I think it is akin to "I Am Becoming". In other words it is a kind of declaration of what one considers oneself to be which is ever changing, but that the essence making the declaration is, just that - an essence, an unchanging fundamental source of being which has the capacity to be becoming. I AM THAT I AM is unfinished and begs the question I AM THAT I AM what? Perhaps I AM THAT I AM BECOMING (Right now I AM THAT I AM GETTING CONFUSED.) I suppose this could be me trying to fit the two ways of looking at it together. It's hard to just let go of a way of seeing things that I have held dear and true for many years in order to take on board a whole new perspective that JJ has presented us with. (And I wonder if this is why so much discussion has come up about what is after all a pretty central tenet of The Immortal.) I somehow think there must be a way to integrate the two views, if only I could rise high enough above it all to see the whole. This is related to another thing that I can't quite settle in me. That is, that I can read certain posts and they ring true for me (soul confirmation) even though they at times seem to be saying contradictory things. Is this because my soul contact is not clear or is it because both are 'right' from a higher Soul perspective but not from a more surface perspective, or am I missing the point completely? I am sorry if people think me going over old ground but I would really like to settle this for myself. (And if I still have questions about Becoming, others may too.) I know you have addressed it JJ, especially extensively with Paul, but, Paul I found your posts on the subject too difficult to read, (except the one in which you told us about yourself, which I really liked) and so I had to sit out of most of the discussion. As for the parable, I understand the point you are making JJ. But , as Susi so eloquently expressed, I also know it to be true that one can get a lot out of life without hardly moving from one spot. I used to seek external excitement , activity and challenges. These days I find life more wonderful, engaging and satisfying than ever, because of the "internal traveling" I do. (It sure saves on airfares, expensive dinners, buying the right clothes, etc etc!). The same world and circumstances CAN look totally different with a simple shift in the beholder - just as Larry saw what had been a boring office and job as anything but after his experience, as described by Eddy. After struggling with the apparent contradictions over 'Being' and 'Becoming', Mark's analysis of the translation has just come in. This, if correct, clarifies the issue . (Thanks, Mark. ) And again, Mark, with another post! I eagerly await an answer to the first question you have asked JJ. Finally, be patient with us Rick and Glenys! Love, Jennifer Re heroes.... A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Ralph Waldo Emerson If people bring so much courage to this world, the world has to kill them to break them, then of course it kills them..... It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave, impartially. (If you are none of these you can be sure that it will kill you too but here will be no special hurry.) Ernest Hemingway Without belittling the courage with which men have died, we should not forget those acts of courage with which men have LIVED. The courage of life is often a less dramatic spectacle than the courage of a final moment, but it is no less a magnificent mixture of triumph and tragedy. A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles, dangers and pressures - and that is the basis of all human morality. John F. Kennedy Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7077 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Communion Through Words Hi JJ, I knew this was to come to use the dictionary meaning of hero to demonstrate a point. While fully aware of this I still decided to fall into it also to demonstrate a point. And the point is that a balance is to be struck between separative duality and oneness. The illustration of Hitler as a hero may be extreme but it is effective to get the attention and the point across but hopefully not diversion. If the popular sentiment for hero was felt violated it would be unfortunate since it was only a demonstration. Well I was not too concerned about what happens on the side of separative duality anyway since it all boils down to the same thing in the end. If there is any real difference of perspective however I believe it is altogether beneficial to face it squarely. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09=21/7078 From: "Aley" Subject: One more post on a Hero That is you. me, everyone, on this list The heros aren't out there or in the past or the future there here within us waiting to be born. All of us have been drawn tpgether for a specific purpose some of us are beginning to understand a bit of what that is and all of us need more direction. But the basis is there and the hero waits for the end of our rumininations waits for the forming of the oneness within the group, waits for us to see beyond ourselves, waits for the awareness of the consciousness that says "YES" I am becoming. So what are we to each other ? What are we to become to each other? How do we learn to trust and become who we are? How do we begin to hold the vision of one another within our inner hearts? Aley Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7079 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Comments J J Dewey wrote: "We've got to not let too much knowledge confuse us. Of course, we all realize that good comes out of evil, but that does not make evil good, it only makes the overall plan good." You sent me a quote a little while back that seems to fit here JJ... "The mind slays the real". We must try to avoid twisting everything up in something else and instead see what is really there. This is often very difficult, as I am finding. But I feel the trip is worth it. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7080 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Seeking clarity "Jennifer Hampson" writes: "I AM THAT I AM is unfinished and begs the question I AM THAT I AM what? Perhaps I AM THAT I AM BECOMING (Right now I AM THAT I AM GETTING CONFUSED.)" Hi Jennifer, Let me share with you, Jennifer, the way I understand the word "I am that I am", if I may. "I am" is part of the sentence composed of the duality of subject and predicate. "That I am" is part of the predicate modifying the subject "I". "That I am" is oneness of being or being or existing that is one, and this oneness is owing to the word "that". So God or the one life or the ultimate reality is the duality that is one being or the one being that is dual. This is how we humans understand God. As far as human conception is concerned separateness is introduced into the duality. So we have to purify the conceptual separateness from the intuited duality so that we can see God as the duality that is the one being. Duality is becoming in manifestation. So God, the ultimate reality or the one life is the one being that is the becoming in manifestation or the becoming in manifestation that is the one being. Our experience is first with separative duality and not oneness, and unless we go wholeheartedly on our path toward oneness we could not counterbalance the gravitation toward separative duality. We may overemphasize oneness at the expense of duality for a period of time but our main thrust toward the balance of duality and oneness consists on the whole in endeavoring to aim at oneness by means of duality. "This is related to another thing that I can't quite settle in me. That is, that I can read certain posts and they ring true for me (soul confirmation) even though they at times seem to be saying contradictory things. Is this because my soul contact is not clear or is it because both are 'right' from a higher Soul perspective but not from a more surface perspective, or am I missing the point completely?" Separative duality is always felt contradictory. That is why you felt the way you did. Actually both are right from a higher soul perspective, as you yourself have sensed, which is a higher perspective of oneness. "I am sorry if people think me going over old ground but I would really like to settle this for myself. (And if I still have questions about Becoming, others may too.) I know you have addressed it JJ, especially extensively with Paul, but, Paul I found your posts on the subject too difficult to read, (except the one in which you told us about yourself, which I really liked) and so I had to sit out of most of the discussion." I am sorry I didn't make myself clearer, Jennifer. Read with your heart and you will understand much better, I am sure, with the kind of intuitive ability you possess. By the way, clarification when called for is always available. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7081 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Paul Yu writes: "Separative duality is always felt contradictory." Hi Paul Let me see if I understand this correctly. I am "using" a magnet that is five inches long and 2 inches wide, maybe 12 inch in depth. I am sure we all know that one end will be positive and the other end negative. If another magnet equal in size (this is for my own clarity) is placed beside the first magnet, neg. to neg. and pos. to pos., they will repel each other. However if the magnets are placed pos. to neg. they attract. It just occurred to me that there must be a point of neutrality in the center of each magnet and if they were placed center to center with one on top at a 90 degree angle, then there should be no attraction or repelling. If I am incorrect on this, please excuse my feeble attempt as I have never experimented in this way with magnets. What I am driving at is that what my dad used to call "the universal law of opposites" applies here and that would make the center neither neg. nor pos. But there is still only ONE law. This duality that is being discussed sounds like it falls under this law. From what I have been reading, this is what I am getting from it; a negative and a positive. They are dual but they are one. If this is true, then the same possibly happens between people, hence we are attracted to some and not attracted to others. I think JJ explained this much better than I can in "Molecular Relationships". I hope I haven't confused anyone else as much as I tend to confuse myself. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7082 From: "John Wayne Kline" Subject: Communion Through Words Now that I have somehow managed to stop laughing , I would like to first thank JJ, for that wonderful clarification, and lesson on terminology. Second I would like to say to you, Laura, you teacher's must be Very Proud of You! LIGHT, LOVE, AND POWER John Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7083 From: Susi Subject: Testing mail The last four letters I've written have not made it through so this is just a test. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7084 From: Susi Subject: Re: One more post on a Hero "So what are we to each other?" Friends "What are we to become to each other?" Comrades "How do we learn to trust and become who we are?" Faith "How do we begin to hold the vision of one another within our inner hearts?" Trust Aley" I for one have envisioned a room large enough to hold all of us in two circles (a circle within a circle) and one or two in the center emanating such a magnificent light that the farthest cosmos could see it and the vibration could be heard as well. I have thought that the angels would spring into song and the weeping of joy would help to cleanse the world. But then I have high aspirations or as others have told me "your goals are too lofty" it is all a matter of opinion aim high, if you reach them (goals) you have the choice to make new ones or sit and stagnate. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7085 From: Susi Subject: For JJ JJ wrote: "Susi, For some reason I thought you called Moe a hero. I'm sorry I misread you and I'm glad Hitler is not a hero to you." I thought this post was really big of you and am happy you have found that I did not agree ;-) and in another post wrote: "And Susi. I seem to be getting under your skin lately. Please do not give me that power. See me as harmless and I will be." I do see you as harmless ;-) But also intelligent and with a lot of power so I get protective of where that power is aimed and how it is put to use that is all. I noticed the typo in there "hat" instead of that is also awfully close to hate. 1) I could never hate you! 2) I have strongly felt through my intuition that I also get under your skin lately. could this be a reflection of both of us? Why are we seemingly at odds even when in reality we are not? (If you choose to play instead of answer this that would be great, but if you choose to work I would be interested in your explanation because this is something I've been wondering about myself for quite some time now) 3) You JJ are held in the highest of esteem within my Being, anyone that has laid themselves out like an open book and risked your own integrity all for the betterment of human kind and trying to raise the collective consciousness will always be admired by me. As I've said before you are appreciated. 4) I said I could not think of anyone that I would consider to be a hero but last night King Arthur came into my thoughts and he and maybe even Merlin would be great examples of whom I would call a hero if I was forced to choose one;-) I hope this has helped to put a smile on your face. It seems to me that you are over worked and not taking enough time to enjoy life. Even Source takes a break now and then. I know you have an important mission and you are bound and determined to complete it in this lifetime, that is a good thing ;-) But balance by someone so dedicated as yourself can sometimes become a little bit weighted on the side of work and even if this does not apply to you, I must say that I want you to play! I want you to live a good long (maybe forever or as long as you like) life and you must stay young in order to achieve this. You must play so that it will increase your days on this earth by keeping your mind and body young. Maybe I'm preaching now or being to simple but I wanted you to understand that no matter how much we might seem to be at odds I still Love you and wish only the best for you. I think this has been stated before, but I wonder are you an Aquarius? Aquarius people have such wonderfully big hearts, they also tend to dedicate themselves to their work above all else. If they love their work and it is like play to them this can be a bonus, but even things that we love can become monotonous as was described in your last parable. BTW I am aware that what I want is completely beside the point so maybe I just wrote this for me to hear but I'm sending it because everyone needs to be petted once in a while. I also wanted to mention that I Love your wife Artie as well because with out the complete understanding and support from her you would not be able to be here with us. Thank you for letting me ramble. Many Blessings;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7086 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Marylin writes: "What I am driving at is that what my dad used to call "the universal law of opposites" applies here and that would make the center neither neg. or pos. But there is still only ONE law. This duality that is being discussed sounds like it falls under this law. From what I have been reading, this is what I am getting from it; a negative and a positive. They are dual but they are one. If this is true, then the same possibly happens between people, hence we are attracted to some and not attracted to others. I think JJ explained this much better than I can in "Molecular Relationships" Hi Marylin, The nature of duality lies in the fact that the two poles attract as they repel each other. The one life repels or exhales to involve and attracts or inhale to evolve to complete the cycle of manifestation. The alpha is the omega with the outgoing and the incoming as the process in between. This is the duality game of oneness. When the rational mind conceives the duality it repels one aspect from the other in such a way that the two aspects of oneness could no longer be attracted back into one whole. Hence illusion is created that the personal self and consequently all perceived objects are regarded as separated. The separated duality reflected by the rational mind becomes a distorted expression of oneness. What is resulted from this is contradiction between the two aspects. Since however the separation is unreal the contradiction is also unreal. As seeming contradiction this unreal contradiction can be referred to as paradox. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7087 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Greetings to All, Paul Yu, you have done it again!! I really love this following paragraph, creates for me a very simple picture. "Duality is becoming in manifestation. So God, the ultimate reality or the one life is the one being that is the becoming in manifestation or the becoming in manifestation that is the one being." And the next: "Our experience is first with separative duality and not oneness, and unless we go wholeheartedly on our path toward oneness we could not counterbalance the gravitation toward separative duality. We may overemphasize oneness at the expense of duality for a period of time but our main thrust toward the balance of duality and oneness consists on the whole in endeavoring to aim at oneness by means of duality." This reminds me of JJ's recent 'molecular relationship' writings about the problem with gravity, and realigning the planets. The balance of duality and oneness affecting the positions of matter in our solar system. Now for that matter....:) is the Christ 'one being in duality' and thus balance, wholeness, and stability is achieved? Thank you Paul for continuing your clarification and creating magnificent pictures in my mind! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7088 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: Diamonds & Being vs. Becoming Susi writes: "I couldn't resist answering this. I would become which ever one was more useful at any given time. If I or others needed heat or something to make a written mark with then I would become the coal. If I or another needed to cut something or bend light I would become the diamond." I think you missed my point. The coal represented the starting point in our spiritual evolution. The diamond represented the desired result. In order for us to achieve 'diamond' status, we must endure nearly unthinkable 'heat and pressure'. It's a lot easier to stay at 'coal' status, but you (or anyone associated with you) never gain anything from it. - Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7089 From: J J Dewey Subject: to Susi Susi, Thank you for your nice post. I'm glad I did not scare a valuable person as yourself off the list. I may have mildly disagreed with you at times, but you have not managed to get under my skin. What makes it difficult for you to do so is your sincerity which always comes through between your lines. What comes close is when I write as clear as word can be and someone totally misunderstands my intention and meaning and shows absolutely no interest in using either intuition or common sense to get the jest of my meaning yet uses every power of imagination to present an opposing point of view while using a distortion of my teaching as a basis of the target thus founding the argument in illusion. I love truth and love presenting real meaning vs. real meaning. This allows the one truth to manifest with joyousness. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7090 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Greetings to All, Uh Oh, here I go again, but this is really a beautiful picture of the cosmos or the atom/molecules thus life in motion: "The nature of duality lies in the fact that the two poles attract as they repel each other. The one life repels or exhales to involve and attracts or inhale to evolve to complete the cycle of manifestation. The alpha is the omega with the outgoing and the incoming as the process in between. This is the duality game of oneness." Ahhh, this looks like what sets up the spin... if there were absolute perfect balance and stability, would the spin stop? or would the then overriding consciousness of 'purpose' be fulfilled in its perfection? Just dreaming and enjoying our universe!! "When the rational mind conceives the duality it repels one aspect from the other in such a way that the two aspects of oneness could no longer be attracted back into one whole. Hence illusion is created that the personal self and consequently all perceived objects are regarded as separated. The separated duality reflected by the rational mind becomes a distorted expression of oneness. What is resulted from this is contradiction between the two aspects. Since however the separation is unreal the contradiction is also unreal. As seeming contradiction this unreal contradiction can be referred to as paradox." Exactly what I thought when I read your last post, contradiction =paradox!!! I just didn't write it! Yet further then the rational mind that conceives of oneness, its original true state, dissolves all unreality. So, I am walking the oneness of my being in the duality of becoming that oneness!! :)(: (me smiling at myself!) In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7091 From: Travis Tabbal Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Marylin wrote: "It just occurred to me that there must be a point of neutrality in the center of each magnet and if they were placed center to center with one on top at a 90 degree angle, then there should be no attraction or repelling. If I am incorrect on this, please excuse my feeble attempt as I have never experimented in this way with magnets." The magnets are not polarized themselves. They emit a field that has those potentials. It is this field that has polarity. Magnets work the way they do because the atoms are lined up in a specific pattern that creates a force field around it. How big this field is depends on how large the magnet is, what materials it is made from, and how well the atoms are lined up. Everything comes together to create the field. There is no "neutral" place in the field. It is actually all one single field that encompasses the magnet. If you were to place one as you describe, it would simply repel or attract from the side it was nearest to. Even if you could somehow place it with absolute precision in the center, it would still attract or repel from the sides. Magnetic fields are like gravity, just because there is a field around the earth, that doesn't mean there is a neutral place in it. Same thing with the earth's magnetic field, for example, a compass will work on the equator. Travis Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7092 From: "* Zia" Subject: Re: to Susi Greetings to All, Ahhh beloved JJ, I cannot resist for the laughter is overflowing: "What comes close is when I write as clear as word can be and someone totally misunderstands my intention and meaning and shows absolutely no interest in using either intuition or common sense to get the jest of my meaning yet uses every power of imagination to present an opposing point of view while using a distortion of my teaching as a basis of the target thus founding the argument in illusion." Here's what strikes me as so funny... we are concerned about words yet they have a life of their own, as above 'jest' ( yes I know what it's suppose to be, but...) followed by: "I love truth and love presenting real meaning vs. real meaning. This allows the one truth to manifest with joyousness." 'real meaning vs. real meaning'!!! Finally we have no argument at all!!!! Now ain't that the truth!!! LLLLLOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL In such love and laughter with All, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7093 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: Hitler a Hero? Jean writes: "I know I am not one of the four that was asked to answer that question but I would like to give my 2 cents: Hitler was by no means a hero, imo he was evil, no doubt there, Was he true to himself? I don't think so, I believe that the "dark" side is a side of evil, deceit, confusion. I believe that it distorts the truth, for some people they are so weak that they let it control them and what they do....." I agree that evil is deceit and confusion, but I also think they are true to self in-so-much as they do everything in their power to increase the size of their ego, and obtain more power for themselves. They are 100% selfishly motivated, and do things only because it is in their best interest. The point we are missing in this huge debate, is who is the real hero? The person who serves self, or the person who seeks to serve others? Maybe we need to come up with the true definition of a "hero"? ----- The above is what I would have said, had I decided not to read JJ's response first.. =) Have a nice day, everyone. Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7094 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Seeking clarity Zia writes: "Paul Yu, you have done it again!! I really love this following paragraph, creates for me a very simple picture." :::::nudging Paul playfully:::::: I am glad that somebody can make heads and tails out of some of these. :) ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7095 From: Jean Subject: Common Unity Prayers and Songs http://www.unityweb.net/Prayers.htm Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7096 From: Jean Subject: Re: Comments JJ, I so apologize for asking again about the archives, I am obviously getting them mixed up, Yes you did answer me before and yes I read through some of them , I just thought there was something more I was supposed to read....I guess I am still somewhat behind on it all. My included homepage: http://community.webtv.net/Timber-roo/TheSandsOfTime Post No. keys-l: /1999-09-21/7097 From: Jean Subject: Re: Communion Through Words amen to J J's response...