1999 - WEEK 25 Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5195 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: Children To all of those who have responded to the previous article which I posted on the use of drugs as a panacea (and there have been too many to respond to individually), I thank you. I have noted all of the replies that are still coming in ... and I will gather a montage of thoughts and suggestions ... This work is not about blame ... its about finding another way ... In the work I am involved in, I do not expect that everyone will agree or disagree ... but if 1 in 10 does something about it for themselves, then that is enough to start a powerful movement in consciousness ... and the effect is a snowball ... there is an alternative ... My life's work has been leading up to this ... I have approached the subject from a number of directions ... and each has led to the same point ... more on that coming ... I would like to share with you some words, written by a member of one of my groups several years ago ... and leave you with the thought that we can either react or do something about it. If we choose to do something about it, then what we do starts and ends with ourselves ... only when the conviction of truth is built on a firm foundation within us as individuals will the energy behind what we say speak louder than the words we speak .... CHILDREN People of the Earth, people of the Planet, Command of the Earth has been entrusted to your care. Honour it. The colours of the sky, the colours of the water were once blue and blue. Now they are grey and brown. The colour of the grass was once green. Now it is poisoned yellow. The colour of the earth, once rich black brown, is now a myriad of colours, a poisoned rainbow. *** I would say to the Children "Wake Up" I would say to the Parents "Wake up" *** I would say to the Adults of the world Wake up and hear the cry of the Children generations distant, the cries of the unborn, for theirs is also the right to Planet Earth. *** You are merely guardians, trustees, custodians. The land is not yours, the trees are not yours, the seas are not yours. You are here because Mother Earth permits. *** But whether or no you understand, whether or no you accept, you are pledged to a bargain as has every generation before you, to honour respect and care for that on which you walk. *** It is your children who would show you the way. It is your children who cry when the hunter's arrow strikes, when the harpoon finds its mark, when the bullet pierces the flesh. *** The Children cry, for they remember, for they know, for they look to their future and see the wanton destruction by their ancestors. *** It is the children who see the futility of war, for they see with clarity that there is no reason bar the petty hatreds of men. They remember the purpose of their incarnation to enjoy, to learn, and further, they realise that learning need not take the path of destruction. *** Listen to the children, and listen to the crys of the unborn, that they also may have a chance to experience Planet Earth. *** This I would ask, for I am Father Sky. ___ With respect Christopher Wynter ... Hobart, Tasmania wynter@bigpond.com [ The Story of my experiences with my own little group starts at http://www.anunda.com/da/index.htm it is by no means complete as there is so much to write ... and the site is being added to every day.] Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5196 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Elaboration of Qualities "(10) Discernment. Question: Why do you suppose this is an important quality for the working disciple? How could it spell disaster if he or she does not possess it?" With discrimination, one is able to perceive the motives and character of others and to see the real truth below the surface of a situation. He can read between the lines. He can distinguish the excellent and the appropriate, judge between what is good and what is better and choose his course of action in the light of universal laws. He is able to perceive the falsehoods in teachings being spread disguised as all that is good and beautiful. Intuition is a natural outgrowth of the power of discrimination. Just the sorta things any secret agent ought to be good at. There's a lot of side roads out there and each one has it's draw, but each one takes away a little piece of your time. If you're going to be working as a guide, you've got to know which roads go nowhere. Audette, Rick Audette, double oh 8 licensed to thrill -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5197 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Elaboration of Qualities Rick Audette wrote: "With discrimination, one is able to perceive the motives and character of others and to see the real truth below the surface of a situation. He can read between the lines. He can distinguish the excellent and the appropriate, judge between what is good and what is better and choose his course of action in the light of universal laws. He is able to perceive the falsehoods in teachings being spread disguised as all that is good and beautiful. Intuition is a natural outgrowth of the power of discrimination." Some of the biggest lies I've heard are the ones I've told myself. For me, discernment means not only seeing what is false in external situations and people but also seeing what is false or not for the highest good in myself. So discernment by definition also means an ability to see the weaknesses of one's own heart that can mislead despite the best of intentions. ('The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all else') Discernment means we have to be 'as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves' - to be aware of all deception and illusion yet remain childlike in our approach to the Kingdom. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. - David Russell Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5198 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT) Take Your Picture http://webspinners.futura.net/zumaltsp/camera1.html Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5199 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: Zia Welcome Alex Hello Everyone, First off I would love to say A warm and wonderful welcome to Alex. I have to say Zia you have done it again. :o] I have been meditating on something and there the answer came through you. I love your posts. I also would like to add I have been enjoying everyone's posts in particular Glenys I had a chuckle over your comment to the two way mirrors and to the point of tension. I loved your meaning of discernment. Jennifer. (snip) "We have a powerful ability to create the reality around us according to our thought, whether we want to consciously use it or not. How wonderful that we can learn the benefits of this in such love and laughter." Brillant Zia. love, Jay Love needs expression :o] Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5200 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Zia Welcome Alex Jay wrote: "I also would like to add I have been enjoying everyone's posts in particular Glenys I had a chuckle over your comment to the two way mirrors and to the point of tension. I loved your meaning of discernment" Thanks for your kind comments, Jay :-) "I also received by email from a friend in Sri Lanka about the story of_ Budha and the way of the middle path. It also has in it the ways of a disciple so I thought I would ask if anyone would mind if I posted it as I feel it is in tune with what JJ has been teaching about High/Low resistance and the characteristics of a disciple from budhas teachings. I will say it is very long however very interesting. I thought I would ask first because of the length of the email." I'd love to see it. The Middle Way is certainly compatible with the path of discipleship - one and the same really, so any pearls of wisdom you can throw our way will be gratefully received (well, by me anyway) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= What do you suppose will satisfy the soul, except to walk free and own no superior. - Walt Whitman Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5201 From: Marylin Subject: Out of the mouths of babes Hello JJ and all I always turn on the morning news when I get up to find out if the weather is still here (sort of like reading obituaries to find out if I am still here) and they were talking about the Colorado high school tragedy. Apparently a profound bit of wisdom has come out of it that falls in line with our current subject of study. "The passion for power reduces the ability to lead." I don't know just who said it, adults or teens, but those nine little words carry a very strong message and I just wanted to share it with you. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5202 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Elaboration of Qualities Rick Audette writes: "With discrimination, one is able to perceive the motives and character of others and to see the real truth below the surface of a situation. He can read between the lines." Hi Rick Amazing how some people can read others minds over the net. Or is it because of being "in tune" with One thought? However, I am just wondering if your word discrimination is meant to be discernment? Living in the deep south the word discrimination is heard a great deal and refers more to the negative side. Although even up north (Iowa) discrimination was used in the same way. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5203 From: "Jay" Subject: Fw: to new massage of budhism****** "dear friend" "i think if you like to read new news of buddhism.send me your idea...thanks. Siddhartha Gautama, known as the Buddha, was born in the sixth century B.C. in what is now modern Nepal. His father, Suddhodana, was the ruler of the Sakya people and Siddhartha grew up living the extravagant life of a young prince. According to custom, he married at the young age of sixteen to a girl named Yasodhara. His father had ordered that he live a life of total seclusion, but one day Siddhartha ventured out into the world and was confronted with the reality of the inevitable suffering of life. The next day, at the age of twenty-nine, he left his kingdom and new-born son to lead an ascetic life and determine a way to relieve universal suffering." "For six years, Siddhartha submitted himself to rigorous ascetic practices, studying and following different methods of meditation with various religious teachers. But he was never fully satisfied. One day, however, he was offered a bowl of rice from a young girl and he accepted it. In that moment, he realized that physical austerities were not the means to achieve liberation. From then on, he encouraged people to follow a path of balance rather than extremism. He called this The Middle Way." "That night Siddhartha sat under the Bodhi tree, and meditated until dawn. He purified his mind of all defilements and attained enlightenment at the age of thirty-five, thus earning the title Buddha, or "Enlightened One." For the remainder of his eighty years, the Buddha preached the Dharma in an effort to help other sentient beings reach enlightenment. "Buddha in meditating attitude. Veragala, late Anuradhapura period" "Sri Lanka is the oldest continually Buddhist country, Theravada Buddhism being the major religion in the island since its official introduction in the 2nd century BC by Venerable Mahinda, the son of the Emperor Asoka of India during the reign of King Devanampiya- Tissa. Later, the nun Sanghamitta, the daughter of Asoka, was said to have brought the southern branch of the original Bodhi tree, where it was planted at Anuradhapura. From that day up to the present, the Buddhists in Sri Lanka have paid and are paying the utmost reverence to this branch of the Bodhi Tree under the shade of which the Master achieved Enlightenment." "Monks from Sri Lanka have had an important role in spreading both Theravada and Mahayana throughout South-east Asia. It was in Sri Lanka, in the 1st century AD during the reign of King Vatta Gamini that the Buddhist monks assembled in Aloka-Vihara and wrote down the Tripitaka, the three basket of the Teachings, known as the Pali scriptures for the first time. It was Sri Lankan nuns who introduced the Sangha of nuns into China in 433AD. In the 16th century the Portuguese conquered Sri Lanka and savagely persecuted Buddhism as did the Dutch who followed them." "The huge rock-cut standing Buddha at Avukana (9th Century)" "When the British won control at the beginning of the 19th century Buddhism was well into decline, a situation that encouraged the English missionaries that then began to flood the island. But against all expectations the monastic and lay community brought about a major revival from about 1860 onwards, a movement that went hand in hand with growing nationalism." "Since then Buddhism has flourished and Sri Lankan monks and expatriate lay people have been prominent in spreading Theravada Buddhism in Asia, the West and even in Africa." "Some of the most marvellous monuments in the Buddhist world belong to Sri Lanka, and her sculpture is closely associated with the early art of the Krishna valley and the later Pallava and Chola kings owing to the close relationship that existed between south India and Sri Lanka." "According to the Sri Lankan chronicles, the Mahavamsa, one of Ashoka's sons, the monk Mahinda, supervised construction of monastic buildings near Anuradhapura. Simultaneously, he sent to India for relics. These, say the histories, included the Buddha's alms bowl and his right collarbone. Later a hair relic, and in the 4th century AD, the Buddha's tooth would be taken to Sri Lanka. The tooth is still preserved in Kandy where daily rituals venerate the Buddha's tooth relic in Temple of the Tooth Relic, Kandy 16th Century (opposite)." "To house the relics, stupas were built. For the collarbone, the Thuparama Dagaba was constructed at Anuradhapura. in north-central Sri Lanka: thefirst stupa in the country. Much restored, the great dome, circled with old columns, is still to be seen in Anuradhapura, now a great park. During major festivals it is crowded with hundreds of thousands of devotees in family groups, who picnic happily among the ruins and offer puja at the Bodhi tree. There are other important monuments nearby at Mihintale, the site of Mahinda's first sermon to King Devanampiya-Tissa. The ruins of the later capital at Polonnaruwa (9th century AD onwards), showing Hindu and Mahayana cultic influence, are yet more elaborate." "The stupa in Sri Lanka is a circular drum on a square base with a long succession of compressed umbrellas forming a conical top over a box-shaped harmika, of which the Thuparama Dagoba (above) at Anuradhapura (3rd century BC) is a fine example. It is said to enshrine the Buddha's collarbone and an eating bowl relic." "The Schools of Buddhism" "The different forms of Buddhism can be understood by becoming familiar with the two major schools that arose out of the Buddha's basic teachings:" "The two major schools of Buddhism, Theravada and the Mahayana, are to be understood as different expressions of the same teaching of the historical Buddha. Because, in fact, they agree upon and practice the core teachings of the Buddha=12s Dharma. And while there was a schism after the first council on the death of the Buddha, it was largely over the monastic rules and academic points such as whether an enlightened person could lapse or not. Time, culture and customs in the countries in Asia which adopted the Buddha-dharma have more to do with the apparent differences, as you will not find any animosity between the two major schools, other than created by healthy debate on the expression of and the implementation of the Buddha's Teachings." "Theravada (The Teachings of the Elders)" "In the Buddhist countries of southern Asia, there never arose any serious differences on the fundamentals of Buddhism. All these countries - Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand, have accepted the principles of the Theravada school and any differences there might be between the various schools is restricted to minor matters." "The earliest available teaching of the Buddha are to be found in Pali literature belongs to the school of the Theravadins, who may be called the most orthodox school of Buddhism. This school admits the human characteristics of the Buddha, and is characterised by a psychological understanding of human nature; and emphasises a meditative approach to the transformation of consciousness." "The teaching of the Buddha according to this school is very plain. He asks us to "abstain from all kinds of evil, to accumulate all that is good and to purify our mind". These can be accomplished by The Three Trainings: the development of ethical conduct, meditation and insight-wisdom." "The philosophy of this school is straight forward. All worldly phenomena are subject to three characteristics - they are impermanent and transient; unsatisfactory and that there is nothing in them which can be called one's own, nothing substantial, nothing permanent. All compounded things are made up of two elements - the non-material part, the material part. They are further described as consisting of nothing but five constituent groups, namely the material quality, and the four non-material qualities - sensations, perception, mental formatives and lastly consciousness." "When an individual thus understands the true nature of things, she/he finds nothing substantial in the world. Through this understanding, there is neither indulgence in the pleasures of senses or selfmortification, following the Middle Path the practitioner lives according to the Noble Eightfold Path which consist of Right View, Right Resolve, Right Speech, Right Actions, Right Occupation, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. She/he realises that all worldly suffering is caused by craving and that it is possible to bring suffering to an end by following the Noble Eight Fold Path. When that perfected state of insight is reached, i.e.Nibanna, that person is a "worthy person" an Arhat. The life of the Arhat is the ideal of the followers of this school, "a life where all (future) birth is at an end, where the holy life is fully achieved, where all that has to be done has been done, and there is no more returning to the worldly life". "Mahayana (The Great Vehicle)" "The Mahayana is more of an umbrella body for a great variety of schools, from the Tantra school (the secret teaching of Yoga) well represented in Tibet and Nepal to the Pure Land sect, whose essential teaching is that salvation can be attained only through absolute trust in the saving power of Amitabha, longing to be reborn in his paradise through his grace, which are found in China, Korea and Japan. Ch'an and Zen Buddhism, of China and Japan, are meditation schools. According to these schools, to look inward and not to look outwards is the only way to achieve enlightenment, which to the human mind is ultimately the same as Buddhahood. In this system, the emphasis is upon "intuition", its peculiarity being that it has no words in which to express itself at all, so it does this in symbols and images. In the course of time this system developed its philosophy of intuition to such a degree that it remains unique to this day." "It is generally accepted, that what we know today as the Mahayana arose from the Mahasanghikas sect who were the earliest seceders, and the forerunners of the Mahayana. They took up the cause of their new sect with zeal and enthusiasm and in a few decades grew remarkably in power and popularity. They adapted the existing monastic rules and thus revolutionised the Buddhist Order of Monks. Moreover, they made alterations in the arrangements and interpretation of the Sutra (Discourses) and the Vinaya (Rules) texts. And rejected certain portions of the canon which had been accepted in the First Council." "According to it, the Buddhas are lokottara (supramundane) and are connected only externally with the worldly life. This conception of the Buddha contributed much to the growth of the Mahayana philosophy." "Mahayana Buddhism is divided into two systems of thought: the Madhyamika and the Yogacara. The Madhyamikas were so called on account of the emphasis they laid on the middle view. Here, the middle path, stands for the non-acceptance of the two views concerning existence and non-existence, eternity and non eternity, self and non-self. In short, it advocates neither the theory of reality nor that of the unreality of the world, but merely of relativity. It is, however, to be noted that the Middle Path propounded at Sarnath by the Buddha had an ethical meaning, while that of the Madhyamikas is a metaphysical concept." "The Yogacara School is another important branch of the Mahayana. It was so called because it emphasised the practice of yoga (meditation) as the most effective method for the attainment of the highest truth (Bodhi) All the ten stages of spiritual progress of Bodhisattvahood have to be passed through before Bodhi can be attained. The ideal of the Mahayana school, therefore, is that of the Bodhisattva, a person who delays his or her own enlightenment in order to compassionately assist all other beings ultimately attains to the highest Bodhi. The Schools of Buddhism" "The different forms of Buddhism can be understood by becoming familiar with the two major schools that arose out of the Buddha's basic teachings:" The two major schools of Buddhism, Theravada and the Mahayana, are to be understood as different expressions of the same teaching of the historical Buddha. Because, in fact, they agree upon and practice the core teachings of the Buddha=12s Dharma. And while there was a schism after the first council on the death of the Buddha, it was largely over the monastic rules and academic points such as whether an enlightened person could lapse or not. Time, culture and customs in the countries in Asia which adopted the Buddha-dharma have more to do with the apparent differences, as you will not find any animosity between the two major schools, other than created by healthy debate on the expression of and the implementation of the Buddha's Teachings." "Theravada (The Teachings of the Elders)" "In the Buddhist countries of southern Asia, there never arose any serious differences on the fundamentals of Buddhism. All these countries - Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Thailand, have accepted the principles of the Theravada school and any differences there might be between the various schools is restricted to minor matters." "The earliest available teaching of the Buddha are to be found in Pali literature belongs to the school of the Theravadins, who may be called the most orthodox school of Buddhism. This school admits the human characteristics of the Buddha, and is characterised by a psychological understanding of human nature; and emphasises a meditative approach to the transformation of consciousness." "The teaching of the Buddha according to this school is very plain. He asks us to "abstain from all kinds of evil, to accumulate all that is good and to purify our mind". These can be accomplished by The Three Trainings: the development of ethical conduct, meditation and insight-wisdom." "The philosophy of this school is straight forward. All worldly phenomena are subject to three characteristics - they are impermanent and transient; unsatisfactory and that there is nothing in them which can be called one's own, nothing substantial, nothing permanent. All compounded things are made up of two elements - the non-material part, the material part. They are further described as consisting of nothing but five constituent groups, namely the material quality, and the four non-material qualities - sensations, perception, mental formatives and lastly consciousness." "When an individual thus understands the true nature of things, she/he finds nothing substantial in the world. Through this understanding, there is neither indulgence in the pleasures of senses or selfmortification, following the Middle Path the practitioner lives according to the Noble Eightfold Path which consist of Right View, Right Resolve, Right Speech, Right Actions, Right Occupation, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. She/he realises that all worldly suffering is caused by craving and that it is possible to bring suffering to an end by following the Noble Eight Fold Path. When that perfected state of insight is reached, i.e.Nibanna, that person is a "worthy person" an Arhat. The life of the Arhat is the ideal of the followers of this school, "a life where all (future) birth is at an end, where the holy life is fully achieved, where all that has to be done has been done, and there is no more returning to the worldly life". "Mahayana (The Great Vehicle)" "The Mahayana is more of an umbrella body for a great variety of schools, from the Tantra school (the secret teaching of Yoga) well represented in Tibet and Nepal to the Pure Land sect, whose essential teaching is that salvation can be attained only through absolute trust in the saving power of Amitabha, longing to be reborn in his paradise through his grace, which are found in China, Korea and Japan. Ch"an and Zen Buddhism, of China and Japan, are meditation schools. According to these schools, to look inward and not to look outwards is the only way to achieve enlightenment, which to the human mind is ultimately the same as Buddhahood. In this system, the emphasis is upon "intuition", its peculiarity being that it has no words in which to express itself at all, so it does this in symbols and images. In the course of time this system developed its philosophy of intuition to such a degree that it remains unique to this day." "It is generally accepted, that what we know today as the Mahayana arose from the Mahasanghikas sect who were the earliest seceders, and the forerunners of the Mahayana. They took up the cause of their new sect with zeal and enthusiasm and in a few decades grew remarkably in power and popularity. They adapted the existing monastic rules and thus revolutionised the Buddhist Order of Monks. Moreover, they made alterations in the arrangements and interpretation of the Sutra (Discourses) and the Vinaya (Rules) texts. And rejected certain portions of the canon which had been accepted in the First Council." "According to it, the Buddhas are lokottara (supramundane) and are connected only externally with the worldly life. This conception of the Buddha contributed much to the growth of the Mahayana philosophy." "Mahayana Buddhism is divided into two systems of thought: the Madhyamika and the Yogacara. The Madhyamikas were so called on account of the emphasis they laid on the middle view. Here, the middle path, stands for the non-acceptance of the two views concerning existence and non- existence, eternity and non eternity, self and non-self. In short, it advocates neither the theory of reality nor that of the unreality of the world, but merely of relativity. It is, however, to be noted that the Middle Path propounded at Sarnath by the Buddha had an ethical meaning, while that of the Madhyamikas is a metaphysical concept." "The Yogacara School is another important branch of the Mahayana. It wasso called because it emphasised the practice of yoga (meditation) as the most effective method for the attainment of the highest truth (Bodhi) All the ten stages of spiritual progress of Bodhisattvahood have to be passed through before Bodhi can be attained. The ideal of the Mahayana school, therefore, is that of the Bodhisattva, a person who delays his or her own enlightenment in order to compassionately assist all other beings ultimately attains to the highest Bodhi. Nations of the Commonwealth Sri Lanka" "Island located off southeast tip of India between latitudes 6 degrees and 10 degrees north of the equator and between the eastern longitudes 79 degrees and 82 degrees. From central mountains, highest point Pidurutalagala 2,511 metres, land slopes to sea in terraces, with such rivers as the 333 kilometre-long Mahaweli Ganga radiating from central massif." "Neighboring country:_ India lies just across Palk Strait to northwest." Time: Greenwich Mean Time plus 5 hours. Climate: tropical; two main seasons: mid-May to July southwest monsoon, temperature range 27 degrees to 31 degrees Celsius; and, December to January northeast monsoon, temperature range 262 degrees to 29 degrees Celsius; rainfall varies from average 107.5 centimetres in relatively dry north province to 545 centimetres in central massif; inland average 248.7 centimetres. Status: republic. Capital: Colombo (estimated population 615,000). Other main towns: Dehiwela-Mount Lavinia (est. pop. 196,000); Moratuwa (est. pop. 170,000); Jaffna (est. pop. 129,000); Kotte (est. pop. 109,000); Kandy (est. pop. 104,000); and, Galle (est. pop. 84,000). Population: 17,400,000 increasing by 1.5 per cent per year; 32.5 per cent under 15 years of age; life expectancy 72 years; and, infant mortality 17.6 per 1,000 live births. Main and official languages: Sinhala, Tamil. Link language is English. Main religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam. Currency: Sri Lanka Rupee (SLR) (US$0.021) =3D 100 cents. Exports: tea, textiles and garments, rubber, gemstones, petroleum products, coconut and coconut products, graphite, spices. Imports: petroleum, textiles and clothing, foodstuffs (sugar, wheat, rice), machinery and equipment, vehicles and transport equipment. Main industries: food, beverages and tobacco; textiles, clothing and leather goods; petroleum- refining, chemicals, rubber and plastics. Main crops: rice, tea, rubber, coconut, sugar cane. Tourism: approximately 400,000 arrivals per year. More information on Sri Lanka SUMITH JAYANTHA DIAS, SRILANKA. sumith@hotbot.com sumithdias@email.com sumith@hotmail.com http://pages.hotbot.com/movies/sumith Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5204 From: Zia Subject: Re: Zia Welcome Alex Greetings to All, and yes welcome to Alex, as well...very thoughtful post. Jay, you make my heart sing, that not only have I benefited by my experiences, and found such love and joy and happiness in the expression of life, but you have benefited AS WELL. That has to be the most inspiring thought, that someone also sees and understands and is inspired. Thank you. And you know, this is what really is happening on this list. We are sharing in our thoughts, recognising one mind, and in allowing ourselves to express offer just this opportunity to each of us. I see such a growth in our expression since I joined this list. Gosh Glenys, you are an inspiration, just loved that Walt Whitman quote 'What do you suppose will satisfy the soul, except to walk free and own no superior' ahhhhhhh that is what occurred for me this Father's day weekend...just beautiful. And Marilyn your words from the news 'the passion for power reduces the ability to lead' and I would add to it 'and so does our fear of power'. I forget who posted the beautiful poem the father wrote prior to losing his child at Colombine, however I just happened to see the news for a moment, in which a bill was put before Congress to bring the 'Ten Commandments' back into schools and public places. A beginning effect...hopefully creating the reversal to bring God back into our lives, our awareness and our focus. I love to watch, that as we talk about discernment, I see with greater vision, and release patterns. Finally saw my own resentment of my mother, it's cause, 'you should do this, he should do that, they should do thus...' I had a seven page letter of it, to get the picture. John K. there must be a song something like this: 'Nobody's gonna should-on-me!!' SAying this over and over, is quite catchy and might even be a number one hit!!! Just seeing the underlying subconscious patterns and releasing them in laughter and freedom...ahhh I just love what we are doing. In the oneness of the Mind of God, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5205 From: J J Dewey Subject: The Two Initiates I watched The Pirates of Silicon Valley last night on TNT. If you missed it the show will be repeated on Monday and Wednesday night. The movie is the story of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. It is interesting in the light of the fact that we have mentioned both of these crusaders as initiates. Remember that I wrote that Jobs was the higher initiate of the two even though Gates was much more financially successful? It is interesting that the story points out that Jobs was a seeker and interested in Eastern Philosophy. Notice the different priorities of the two. Jobs main interest was in changing the world and making a better product. Bill's motive was success at any price. The interesting thing is that from the soul level these two were one, working on one goal to bring the world into the computer age. Gates was just fortunate enough to reap the majority of the financial reward. Jobs had difficulty, as dreamers always do, of keeping his focus on the bottom line.. It is also interesting to note the faults of these two men and the growth they went through. This illustrates to us hat initiates are often far from being goodie goodie two shoes but are often driven to get the job done at the expense of stepping on toes. As Jobs and Gates progress along the path, however, they will knock off the rough edges and develop more sensitivity to general humanity. It is also interesting that even though Gates seems to have the advantage on a soul level, this success will be a handicap for him in his next life that he will have to surmount. Jobs will have a head start in his future life because of lessons he has learned from being number two in this one. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5206 From: J J Dewey Subject: Discernment Subject under discussion: The qualities of the disciple. Here is what we have so far: (1) Soul contact (2) Holding the mind steady in the light (3) Detachment when necessary. (4) The ability to either send or receive (5) Reflection - contemplation (6) Talent. (7) The power to initiate (8) The ability to create and sense a point of tension. (9) Willingness to sacrifice (10) Discernment We have covered sacrifice quite thoroughly. The only thing I might add at present is that when true sacrifice is understood it will be known by the disciple that sacrifice as understood by the masses is an illusion. As some see sacrifice they see loss, but from the viewpoint of the disciple there is no such thing as loss when serving the greater good, even if you lose all you have in the material sense. Sacrifice is a trade off. You are trading a lower good for a higher good, a lower enjoyment for one more exquisite and a temporary possession for one with more permanence. We come to the tenth quality - discernment. Let me quote several of your comments: And it is important to be spiritually discerning so as to avoid the harm a Brother Philo can cause. Recently I let someone into my life who played on my energy, invaded my psyche (with my consent) negatively affecting myself and, worse, some people around me for whom I feel responsibility. "Perhaps the Great Brotherhood of Light wants us to ensure our power of choice through wise and timely discernment, as a protection of ourselves and them through us, because what good to them are we, if we have no discernment, and are rapidly jeopardizing ourselves or their gift of knowledge to all, through inappropriate attitudes or lack of discernment." Zia "He is able to perceive the falsehoods in teachings being spread disguised as all that is good and beautiful. Intuition is a natural outgrowth of the power of discrimination. ... If you're going to be working as a guide, you've got to know which roads go nowhere." Rick "Some of the biggest lies I've heard are the ones I've told myself. For me, discernment means not only seeing what is false in external situations and people but also seeing what is false or not for the highest good in myself. The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn." Glenys Very true statements. One of the main problems created though a lack of discernment is deception from false teachers, like Brother Philo in the Immortal. One of the traps that happen to a well meaning seeker is that he will often be approached by one who is lesser evolved than himself and told that he must be humble and follow. Now to follow is a virtue if you are following someone who has something real to teach, but there are many mediocre minds with large egos who will do everything in their power to get greater minds to follow them. Often times through lack of discernment these greater minds, clouded with guilt and false humility, will follow the lesser causing an evolutionary delay and learning and hard lesson. A good example of this was Malcom X. He was a much greater soul than his "beloved teacher" and if he would have realized this sooner he could have accomplished much more and developed a more beneficial philosophy for his brethren. The greater problem is usually the reverse, however. A student with a qualified teacher will often think he has passed up his mentor in evolution and seeks to reverse rolls that should stay in place. Discerning the proper place upon the path and acting accordingly is invaluable part of discernment and a characteristic of true humility. Another extremely important point is that without discernment there can be no reliable higher contacts. In this reality we are limited in the direction in which we can focus our attention. Attention, in its power, is like a magnifying glass concentrating the rays of the sun. The concentration of light is very powerful, but limited in the amount of space that can be ignited. Unknown to many seekers there are many voices out there calling for your inner attention and those who draw our attention on the line of least resistance are never entities of the higher planes. The higher lives speak the language of silence and silence does not clamor for attention; instead attention must find the silence. The disciple must__ discern and learn to ignore the lower noisy voices of glamour and, through the power of will, force his attention on the secret place of stillness and in that place enjoy the communion of the saints and the Brotherhood of Light. Only through the discernment and the ignoring of the lesser voices can this be obtained. Soul contact and communion through the Oneness principle is essential for the working disciple, else he may wind up receiving illusionary teachings and leading others down a path from which retracing steps will be essential. As we proceed here I can see that we will be naming more qualities than originally intended, but even with this longer list we will leave some items out that could be named. (11) Perseverance - the ability to always bounce back and continue toward a goal even if things seem hopeless or bleak. This is partly obvious as to why this is needed by the disciple. Can you elaborate on either the obvious or the not-so-obvious? (12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be? Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5207 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Discernment J J Dewey writes: "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" The negative aspect of discrimination would be the confusion between appearance and essence: you must discern through the forest of acts, feelings and thoughts, and act for the highest good, and if people oppose you, or don't have the same view on things, you mustn't judge what they are but what they express. Also, I (because it is I in fact not you:-) must allow inclusiveness to help me change my mind and see my first idea and analysis of the situation was incomplete, although discrimination led me to it Inclusiveness is like calling the whole to engulf you in order to receive insights about things you hadn't noticed and perceived yet. Be one with the whole for a minute or two, and change your point of view that was focused in discriminating and analysing precise points. (in fact it is rather a second than a minute:-)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5208 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Resistance We are writing for assistance, we felt that offering JJ's free book 1 to our public library for any one who wanted it could just take a copy (JJ sent us several, thank you, JJ) i started calling last Friday, and was told i should call back Sat. to speak with the branch manager, which I did and was told at that time i should call back Monday after 12pm, which i did, finally we have been told we are allowed to bring a copy to the library tomorrow (Tuesday) for it to be inspected for proper decisions to be made, on the same Friday i also called our local newspaper, which has a Free Section and told them i wanted to place a free ad that would consist of nothing more that an internet address for anyone to access for a free book, i was told i must get permission from a supervisor to place this free ad, today (Monday) after calling the library, i again called the newspaper and was told the person I originally spoke with was out sick and no one knew who her supervisor was, so they will call me back Tuesday (hopefully). This is beginning to take on a Mission Impossible look, but i am very stubborn and will see this through, and if you feel its a good idea to continue, please send your thoughts to blend with ours, perhaps the dark side is just seeing how quickly we'll give up (HA!) Thanks for any input. love & light, sharon & richard Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-21/5209 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Elaboration of Qualities "However, I am just wondering if your word discrimination is meant to be discernment? Living in the deep south the word discrimination is heard a great deal and refers more to the negative side. Although even up north (Iowa) discrimination was used in the same way. Marylin" Discriminate vb 1. distinguish, differentiate discerning, judicious Anyone can discriminate between white and black, but it takes a focused, yet flexible pilot to navigate through the millions of shades of gray that lie between. When you practice discernment/discrimination, you seek to do what is best, in every situation, even if there are no bad choices. Good and Better can both be had, here and now, but best is in a higher class. Best stretches out into infinity, no matter how good you get. Best is right up there with God and Heaven, n'est pas. So, maybe, we can never be the best, but if we aim for it, we can always be better. A little personal note to all here: I chose to change to digest mode at work and forward individual e-mails to my home address. Some new supervisors were having a problem with me getting more e-mail than them, or something ;) So, I'm still on every night, at the address at the bottom of every list post. If there is an emergency, I can respond, from work, but for now I'm keeping a low profile there. Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com And what a thing a child can be, The chord that bonds them all If it is one with both of us, Then we are one with all Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5210 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Discernment J J Dewey wrote: "(11) Perseverance - the ability to always bounce back and continue toward a goal even if things seem hopeless or bleak. This is partly obvious as to why this is needed by the disciple. Can you elaborate on either the obvious or the not-so-obvious?" Well, I suppose that even though it can feel like it at times, a disciple never works in isolation. I guess that his or her work is a link in a long chain of activity for the Light. Therefore, if a disciple gives up when difficulties arise, a entire programme of activities can be affected, not just the little part performed by the disciple. So I suppose perseverance goes hand in hand with reliability. A person won't be used if they're tossed about by every storm and seeming setback. Apart from this, perseverance builds character ('What doesn't kill you makes you strong.' :-) and difficulties can be a test which, if passed, can lead to greater responsibilities being granted. However, in saying this, there must sometimes be a fine line between persevering for the right reasons and continuing on with an idea that's not working and will never work because it wasn't the right thing to do in the first place or the environment has changed. I suppose that's where discernment comes in again. "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" The disciple acknowledges that all is One, that we are all connected and everyone will eventually follow the Path of Light. However, practically speaking, it would do a disciple no good at all to spend a lot of time with those whose minds are closed to the message of hope and light. It would only serve to dissipate his or her energies and could so easily pull one backwards. Similarly, one shouldn't 'cast one's pearls before swines'. There are many interpretations that could be given to this but one for me is to be reticent in sharing the promptings of my inner heart with unbelievers or people who will scoff. All to often an idea can be destroyed before it's had time to gestate and manifest just because we've spoken about it too soon. Sometimes we have to ponder things in our hearts before releasing them to the scrutiny and criticism of others. It's treating the creative process with respect in order to maximize energy with the objective of achieving a good outcome. On the other hand (you can tell I have my moon in Libra), we must be open to all genuine seekers knowing that as we give of ourselves and our time, we shall be richly compensated. I often remember the analogy of the spiritual ladder we're all on with every individual on it lifting one hand up to be assisted by the person above and the other hand reaching downwards to help the person below. We all get to the top eventually but not without being open to the assistance and love offered and sought. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= What do you suppose will satisfy the soul, except to walk free and own no superior. - Walt Whitman Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5211 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Fw: to new massage of budhism****** Jay wrote: "The next day, at the age of twenty-nine, he left his kingdom and new-born son to lead an ascetic_ life and determine a way to relieve universal suffering." Thanks for posting this, Jay. The thing that's always interested me about the early life of Buddha and which was glossed over in your friend's email was that Buddha did not only leave his new born son to find enlightenment but also his wife. So, in effect, he abandoned them. Legend has it that when he returned many years later, his wife tried to berate him for deserting his family. His response was something like, "Don't waste your time; I'm not the same man who left you X number of years ago; I'm a completely different person and your protestations are falling on deaf ears'. So his wife never even had the satisfaction of telling him how she felt about being abandoned. Of course, I'm sure that's only part of the story and even Jesus talked about leaving one's family to follow him. On the other hand, I would have thought that a feature of discipleship would be to also take care of one's worldly responsibilities. If one can't manage the Kingdom on Earth how can one be trusted to manage the Kingdom of Heaven? But I suppose that's just me and my Virgo tendency to simplify things showing up again :-) Love Simplistic Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. ~ C.G. Jung Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5212 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: Of Angels and Children ... OT? I would like to thank all of the people who have replied to my posts either personally or on the various lists I have written to. In order to explain a little bit of where I am coming from, I would like to share the following personal experience with everybody as I feel it may answer a lot of questions, and perhaps raise a whole lot more. I know that I am still 'coming to grips' with all of the implications ... and yet ... it is part of the background behind every post that I have ever posted on any list ... Specifically, as far as this list is concerned, it encompasses the whole of the subject of spirituality, the subjects of death, rebirth, past lives, wholism, children ... it can be extrapolated to show why we feel the way we do, why we react ... It begs the question as to what we shut down in our children ... unknowingly ... What follows is an abbreviated form of what I am in the process of putting up on my web site at http://www.anunda.com/da/index.htm ... because the complete story is too long to tell here. *** Of Angels and Children ... David and anunda ... The date was the 31st August 1993. It was 6.30 in the morning and I'm walking on a local beach near Hobart in Tasmania with a friend who is now still very much part of this ongoing work. We had spent previous day in very deep discussions on the subject of life and death. "We had seen many signs of life on that beach during our walk. All the time we had been blind to the joy of life swimming in the ocean. Then we heard some children calling out to us ... and we turned ..." "They were two boys (I suppose they were about seven years of age) and a black-and-white dog. The dark haired boy was a little taller than the one with red hair. There was nothing really unusual about them -- except that we hadn't noticed them anywhere on the beach before. We stopped and they came up to us and asked "Haven't you seen them?" "What?" we replied. "The dolphins over there, the penguin in the water just here." This was our local beach. Dolphins never came there, but that morning we saw them." *** Two children with all wisdom. "We had been so engrossed in the life of the beach that we had not seen the joy of life in the water. We had almost missed the greatest expression of life. The dolphins were playing with pure joy. With each leap I caught my breath. Once or twice a spout of water went up - do I dare believe a whale was there also? " The night before we had discussed the fact that we are not alone. My friend later confessed that she had asked for a sign to show her that she was not alone. Somewhere, someone had let her know that her prayer had been heard. We looked back to where the two boys and their dog had been. No sign of them. We walked back up the beach. No footprints. A couple of days ago, I asked my friend to put a question to David and anunda ... the two little boys I have written of previously ... They were playing, as little boys do, with their toys in the living room. She asked them, "did you come to us once, a few years ago, before you were born, early in the morning, to show us the dolphins down at the beach?" David looked at her with steadfast eyes and smiled ... anunda, well he spluttered and dropped the piece of cake he had been chewing. There is an enigmatic grin that he gives us when we've have had an "understanding". We had understood, and life had come another cycle ... not all angels have wings ... David is the taller of the two (and 21 months old), with dark hair ... anunda has red hair ... as yet, they do not have a dog ... On the day I posted the original of this to the web server, David confirmed this story in a way that left no doubt in our minds as to the truth of our understanding ... and he told my friend that it was published before I did .... yesterday For those who wish to pursue this subject further, I have established my own discussion list to avoid conflict with those on this list who see this material as off topic. Details are in the footer. With Respect Christopher Wynter, Hobart Tasmania wynter@bigpond.com http://www.anunda.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5213 From: J J Dewey Subject: Note to Chris Chris, I'm curious what kind of feedback you get from posting the exact same message in several dozen mailing lists with Spirit Web. Do the people feel spammed with messages so out of context with the topics under discussion? Do you realize that if even a dozen people did what you are doing it would disturb the flow and interest of all the lists? I think it would be a lot better instead of giving us a mass posting that everyone receives that you would tailor your remarks around our discussions. Even our off topic remarks seem to go with our flow to some degree. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5214 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Note to Chris I have to say, Christopher, that I agree with JJ here. So far I've received the same email from you four times which says two things to me: 1) I'm on too many mailing lists 2) You aren't tailoring your emails to suit the subject matter of the lists and so, in effect, you are spamming people. No doubt you feel you have a great message to impart that necessitates your overlooking normal Net etiquette but I find I now delete anything I see that appears with your name on it because of your approach. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does that and wonder whether you'd have more success if you took a more measured and thoughtful approach. Or does the exercise of freedom on these lists preclude responsibility and consideration? Does everything boil down to 'use the delete button'? Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. ~ C.G. Jung Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5215 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Elaboration of Qualities Rick Audette writes: "Discriminate vb 1. distinguish, differentiate discerning, judicious. Anyone can discriminate between white and black, but it takes a focused, yet flexible pilot to navigate through the millions of shades of gray that lie between._ When you practice discernment/discrimination, you seek to do what is best, in every situation, even if there are no bad choices." Thanks Rick. This helps me to better understand and also helps me to let go of so many years of "propagandization". Love, Light, Peace and Harmony' Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5216 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: Fw: to new massage of budhism****** Thanks Glenys, I found that Budha leaving his bride and son interesting. Imagine if he would have chosen to stay with them. Where would the Budha faith be and its practices? Sometimes what may appear to be a hard experience for some at a time can be an actual blessing in disguise. Who knows what his wife and child went on to in the end it may have been a blessing for her and her child. What came to me (oh no another thought *LOL* :o]) was, if Karma is the Law of cause and effect and for every action there is a reaction and good karma and bad karma what would Budha's Karma be for leaving his wife and new born son, not taking on the responsibility of being a father? I found that message interesting because the person that posted it is a new penfriend of mine that does not know of my spiritual interest. Actually I had not heard from him in weeks. It came out of the blue. In that message was confirmation of a repeat message for me that came to me yesterday in different forms. God works in mysterious and wonderful ways. :o] I am glad that you liked me posting. Have a wonderful day to you and everyone on the list Love, Jay When floating upon the stream of life, choose a rudder for your boat :o] = Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5217 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Discernment Glenys Lowery wrote: "Similarly, one shouldn't 'cast one's pearls before swine'. There are many interpretations that could be given to this but one for me is to be reticent in sharing the promptings of my inner heart with unbelievers or people who will scoff." Hi Glenys and All, Ok, I'll admit that I just chose this statement of yours almost at random from your post. The reason being, that as I read the original, I wanted to respond to about every line. And if you were here, the one big response would be one very BIG hug! I absolutely Love what you say in your posts. And this is not to slight any other on the list, as JJ has pointed out, this is quite a fine crew we have here. (A little more of my "seafarer" coming out, Xavier) But I truly respect these thoughts of yours. Interesting note. The 'casting your pearl before swine' thing is answered in another post dealing with the Buddha returning to his wife who tries to berate him. And I get this stupid little smirk on my face any time I think of this. I can almost "feel" the elation he must have felt. The absolute knowing that he must have possessed. And the realization that goes sort of like this, "If you are going to try to attack me, you had better get yourself a whole SLEW of helpers. 'Cause, darling, you ain't bringing THIS ship down". I LOVE that kind of confidence, because I know it can only come from One Source. And I Love that Source with All that I am. (And all I'm becoming too:) Ok, I could go on and on, but I'll spare you all. But one day when we all meet face to face, I have got some of the funniest stories to share. As of course I know you all do as well. Until the next time, Rich Blessings, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5218 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Disciple qualities "(11) Perseverance - the ability to always bounce back and continue toward a goal even if things seem hopeless or bleak. This is partly obvious as to why this is needed by the disciple. Can you elaborate on either the obvious or the not-so-obvious?" I can only see the obvious. That if you give up, you don't get to where you are heading. Oh well, maybe a bit more!...The moment a commitment is made to do or achieve something, all the obstacles and ways in which it is not being done or has not being realized become apparent. Instead of seeing this as a discouragement, it can be regarded as helpful because it makes it obvious what needs to be done and what obstacles hinder the path to realizing (making real) the commitment. And once seen they can be dealt with. For example, if I want a good relationship and am committed to it then I will notice the ways I behave which are not consistent with this, and do something about it. Or if I want an open fireplace in my house (where do these examples come from!??***!) then what shows up is that I need to find the money for it, I may need council approval, a builder, a source of wood, to put up with the disruption during the building period etc. Then if these things do not run smoothly, say the builder doesn't turn up at the arranged time (No, that would never happen would it!) do I give up? Or is my commitment to getting a fireplace strong enough to do what has to be done to see it through to completion? If a person is taking no action towards the goal, it is a pretty safe bet that he/she is not really committed to it, although they might mouth the words. Commitment shows up in the action of perseverance. And, as they say in an ad for shampoo here, "it might not happen overnight, but it will happen". ("It" is glossy, shiny hair) "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" Ideally the disciple should be completely inclusive. Discernment is not the same as exclusion. I can be discerning about someone's character without thinking badly about them. I can dislike something in my life (for example, the way I treated someone) but I can acknowledge it is part of the fabric of my life (ie not deny that I did what I did), and then use discernment to give it its proper place in my life (ie something I did of which I am not proud but which, instead of giving my self a hard time about it, I make amends as best I can, resolve not to make the same mistake again, and then let it go.) Or, I may not invite my doctor to dinner but that doesn't mean he is not included in my life. His place in my life is as someone I go to when ill. That is appropriate and to invite him to dinner would not be discerning because it would show no recognition of that place. He would feel uncomfortable (and I would too if I had any discernment at all!). In the reality of the Spirit I am that I am one with all, but in this physical world, where time and space operate, there are degrees of connection and degrees of distance. So I am closer to my daughter than to my cousin. I include my cousin in an outer circle of my life, whereas my daughter's place/inclusion is in an inner circle. Inclusiveness here looks relative but it is still inclusiveness. One cannot be whole if something is excluded. Love, Jennifer Post Nol keys-l: /1999-06-22/5219 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Glenys does it again Glenys, yet again i look around to see if you have stepped out of my head, yet. I so resonate with your postings, as with all the others on this blessed list, especially your mention of "not throwing pearls before swine" i have learned to not do that to my darling daughter-in-love's dad, who is a a VERY STRICT 7th-day adventist, he offers to pray for us because we are, obviously of the devil, and we thank him, telling him we can use all the prayers he will say for us, but we don't debate religion with him, and, the thing that confuses him the most is how much he care for us, which to his basic teachings is wrong, so instead of being verbal and trying to argue with him, we let our light shine and our love for him shine through, his ex-wife is just starting her spiritual journey and we have just given her Book 1. This is a most exciting time. thanks to all of you, you are quoted more than you can ever know. blessings, sharon ^I^ ^I^ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5220 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Discernment John K wrote: "And if you were here, the one big response would be one very BIG hug!" Thanks, John. I'm very much into hugs so have snatched onto your offer, ethereally, at least. And, of course, it's returned a hundredfold. It's so nice to wake up in the morning and read the affirming emails people on this list write to each other. It almost, but not quite, breaks me out of my regular morning comatose state (although that doesn't happen fully until about 10 am). The respect people on this list have for each other is truly heart-warming. Thanks also to Jay and Sharon for your comments. As JJ would no doubt say, it's the Oneness Principle in operation yet again. I had one more thought about Perseverance during the night. If one doesn't persevere, one doesn't create a point of tension and therefore the work doesn't get done. We know from what JJ has said that it can appear as if nothing is happening for a long time and we start to wonder sometimes if we're doing the right thing. But then the point of tension is reached and the creation of something new takes place. This can't happen without perseverance. I know I have good perseverance skills because I'm persevering with this email PRE-coffee (you should see all the typos!). But my point of tension has been reached so I'm off now to create a cup of coffee - before tension turns to madness :-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. ~ C.G. Jung Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5221 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: OT - Jay's pic Dear Friends, The one and only... Jay! :) http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/KeystersPhotoAlbum.htmlJay Bright smiles, Samu Ps. While I was updating the Photo Album page, I realized I used the name Keysters, again... :) So if anybody feels uncomfortable reading that name, I take ALL the blame :) (And, I don't mean to rehash the discussion over what we should call ourselves... Nobody ever came up with something that would have felt exactly like IT by all right away. But I think everybody agrees we are much more than just something that could described with one constant name... Let us be known by what we think and do in each moment, and let's make each of those instants best and most beautiful we can!:) Pps. That was one long Ps. :D chasethedogstarovertheseahomewheremytrueloveiswaitingformeropethesouthwind Samu Karlsson samu3@dlc.fi samu.karlsson@norpe.fi http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3 "Just remember not to forget and you'll be fine...but you already know this, don't you?" canvasthestarsharnessthemoonlightsoshecansafelygoroundthecapehorntovalparaiso Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5222 From: Zia Subject: Re: OT - Jay's pic Greetings to All And to you Jay, enjoyed 'meeting' you in a picture that reminded me of nexus point on the way to Andromeda...is that a ship on your left just hovering for a closer look??:)) Glad to meet you. ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5223 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: Reply to JJ., Respectfully ... might I suggest that the ability of two entities to manifest their future selves into a physical body 5 years before they were born is the essence of immortality ... especially when they have full remembering of that manifestation? Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5224 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: OT - Jay's pic Hi Zia, You are funny today :o]. Of course that was a ship hovering, it was my transport waiting to take me to meet Zor. By the way Zor is pretty groovy he loves the way people acknowledge himher on the list. :o] Zor sends lots of cosmic energy to everyone ;0] I loved seeing your pic with the rocks, now if I can just get a Zoom in lens for my computer *LOL* :o] It is nice to meet you too Zia :o] Love, Jay Life's a blessing :o] Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5225 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Discernment J J Dewey wrote: "(11) Perseverance - the ability to always bounce back and continue toward a goal even if things seem hopeless or bleak. This is partly obvious as to why this is needed by the disciple. Can you elaborate on either the obvious or the not-so-obvious?" Hi Folks, Well, I'll take a stab at the "not-so-obvious" side of this. Though it looks a little like a sand pit. I'll try not to sink before I tell you what I see. :) The image that's floating around in my mind has the look of a long process of preparation for an event that still defies our ability to understand or "truly" perceive. Of course, this is not to say that many of us don't have very "real" experiences to rest our assurances on, but still I see all of this as only smatterings of the whole picture. Where perseverance comes in is when we learn the somewhat troubling, somewhat comforting news that all of our preparations were just that, preparations. And the main event has yet to arrive. The question being, how far will we persevere when the road ahead doesn't seem so familiar. Perseverance is the sign of the overcomer. And to that one is given the keys to the kingdom. "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" Oh, now this one is fun. I mean it, folks. At least it is with me. As when any of us are experiencing life with someone who doesn't "see" what you see, what I have witnessed myself doing, (not really all that intentionally) is to establish a very clear line between the other and myself in the "physical" arena, in that one area. (While always remembering my own words, "I could be wrong") Mostly this happens with those I'm around a lot and care for. And only when I see that person halting or even damaging themselves by some means. Once I have made my view as clear as it can be, if the person still will not see, I leave the space between us in tact until the Father sets up the best scenario for us to find the Truth. No matter who is right. (Yes, often times I find it's me that gets the lesson :)The rest of my relationship with the person goes on as normal, but still there is an identifiable point of tension, that can sometimes scream out for resolution. So I find myself inclusive of everyone I have ever met (up till now anyway:) And yet I maintain what are now more conscious separations with some, which serves to focus on enlightenment in some area, without upsetting the balance of the relationship. Well, that's all I got :o) Blessings Folks, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5226 From: "Dave Curtis" Subject: Re: Reply to JJ., You have a point, Christopher. However, the purpose of this list is not immortality, but to learn and teach the keys of knowledge. Hence the name, "The Keys of Knowledge List". I appreciate many of your posts, as they do provide a different point of view most of the time, but when you are going to post a story or a 'spam' so to speak, I think it would benefit you to ask the list members before posting such a message. Even Jay asked permission before posting that long message Budhism. It at least had some relevance to what we were discussing at the time. Christopher, your presence is welcome here. However, respectfully, your advertising is not. - Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5227 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Reply to JJ., "Christopher Wynter" writes: "Respectfully ... might I suggest that the ability of two entities to manifest their future selves into a physical body 5 years before they were born is the essence of immortality ... especially when they have full remembering of that manifestation?" I don't see what it has to do with the point: Your messages are most of the time unrelevant, and unfollowed by yourself. This is not a list for your teachings, create one! This is not a list for words that were not written with the people here in mind, and what we say here. JJ and Glenys are most respectful, I am not (in my expression, but I sure won't throw you any stone). I just think it is necessary to tell you that you clearly step over the limit of respect when 1) you post unrelevant posts, more than that, you post the same thing to many lists... create one for you, that's all. 2) you presently justify yourself by arguing that you have proofs of your immortality?? Well you're the next Messiah then, why can't you respect simple rules? True ones mind you, not fake social ones. ...Well sorry for my tone and aggresivity, but I don't know if a_ completely respectful person could convince you either. So you're immortal? Great for you, but I'm not interested, at least it doesn't make your completely off-topic messages on topic. I guess I sound like croaking to you, but I do suggest that you gain more earth balance in order to be listenable. And remember we are all here (old) seekers of truth, and are not afraid of the idea of immortality and such. (But we want it concretely, not as a dream, see? More than that we know that immortality is much farther in the way, and that the next step that requires our attention is about balance and service, not about_ seeking ascension and overlooking what life gives is to DO.) Just have basic respect and presence, and then, you might use it to transmit true high knowledge. Otherwize you'll only fascinate people that reject matter. There are many in-orbiter teachings in the new age, and they are of little use. (And I'm sorry to be such an emotional knot.) One more thing: I have absolutely no authority here, I am a simple listee. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5228 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: OT - Jay's pic Yes, Jay, I too enjoyed getting to see you. I've enjoyed seeing each of the keysters get added to Samu's album. Like him, I have software for working with pictures and save copies of lots of friends pics. Hmmm, seams that sleek transport behind you is red and has an internal combustion engine, powering four wheels. And, Samu can't take all the blame for calling us keysters, because I that topic in the first place, way back when. It might have even been me that coined the word. One, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5229 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Disciple qualities "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" Biology comes to mind, first. A single cell from my body is a frail creature indeed. Most of them can only eat when bathed in food. Most of them can not move from point a to point b, on their own. It is weak in strength and consciousness. When you bring together a few gajillions of these little guys, they become one and form me, or at least something that passes as a single entity in encounters with others of it's kind. And, this "me" is a whole lot stronger, smarter and mobile than any single cell. Until last fall, I was a single celled internet surfer creature, swimming from site to site and list to list, searching for ways to share knowledge, like a salmon swimming up stream. Then, the author of my favorite books in the Bible, becomes the homing beacon to me and many others from all over the world. Where I had been previously the only guy in the area that knew and could make sense about a pretty good sized chunk of cosmology, now I am surrounded by those that enrich my perspective. I now have hundreds of eyes and ears and begin to feel like I am a creature that is as big as a whole planet. I am both a member of this group and I am the group itself. I see everybody's words come across my monitor and can scarce speak up, before a half dozen others have said it so well. I wonder, do others see themselves as this same creature, or am I tripping. Thinking in terms of what oneness is about certainly does lead me to some wonderful hypothesis. Does anybody else sense this "bigness" of their "self", somehow? Do we begin to see with a bigger eye and hear with a bigger ear? And, by that, we are more strong, maybe even immortal. Two thousand years from now we may still be remembered for what we wrote here on this list. They will have a collective name for us and think of us as this name. The individuals in the group will not be as well known as the collective. Okay, I was daydreaming, but hey, it could happen, right One, Keyster -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com And what a thing a child can be, The chord that bonds them all If it is one with both of us, Then we are one with all Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5230 From: "Kevin Shannon" Subject: Where did the list go? This is highly unusual. I have not received one solitary email from The Keys of Knowledge List today. Just_ wondering what is going on. Long time lurker, Kevin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5231 From: Terrance R Brennan Subject: OT--Movies / The Matrix--Wow! I was disappointed with the new Star Wars flic, but one movie that did blow me away was The Matrix. If there's one movie you see this summer make it the Matrix--in my opinion it's what Star Wars should have been. Great plot/story, great acting . . .and oh yeah, good special fx too. :-) How many parallels can you point out that we've talked about here? I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It made me want to cry--in a good way. Anyone seen it? Rob Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5232 From: Zia Subject: Tension/Perseverance Greetings to All, Realised in my focus this morning that I have a story from long ago about_ tension and perseverance given by a great being to me. It is called the_ Marriage of Will and Wisdom. In archery we get to see the power of Will and Wisdom. Wisdom is using all_ of our skills to physically make use of a bow and arrow and a target. That_ Wisdom calculates the distance, and keeps the 'shooter's' eyes on the_ target, thoughts on the target, and holds the mind steady excluding distractions. The Will is the energy of our desire to have the arrow reach the target, in fact the very center of it (the symbol of our desired goal held out on the spiral of time). As we learn to put our physical energy into drawing the bow string into 'great tension' (our desire and focus) that tension is held by our Will. As our Will and Wisdom merge into focus on the center of the target, we release the arrow. With a weak Will, the arrow will fall short of the target, perhaps by allowing outside distraction, or without strength of determination/perseverance. Should the arrow miss its target having the 'power' to reach that point, the Wisdom is weak in applied focus, and easily distracted in the mind. Too many voices of the past, etc. By applied practise Will and Wisdom are strengthened. So too is perseverance in the repetition of application of focus and applied energy. I see that when the Marriage of Will and Wisdom occurs, the initiate/disciple releases the arrow and still holding the focus watches the arrow strike its mark, the 'Bull's Eye'. An appropriate term, since the Bull is all about determination/perseverance, often perceived in the outside world as stubbornness. He is stubborn enough not to let go of his dream, give up or quit. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5233 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Reply to JJ "Christopher, your presence is welcome here. However, respectfully, your advertising is not." Hi Folks, Don't mean to stir the fire here...........Oh, alright Xavier, I guess maybe I do. :) These little exchanges that we experience from time to time do seem to be inevitable. And I would imagine that with as many diverse viewpoints represented on this list, coupled with the excitement of all our new (or old) discoveries, the desire to share the wonderment of it all leads us to these circumstances. So, what I was thinking was that perhaps instead of bumping heads on these OT posts, that perhaps someone would like to initiate a "Keysters Friends" list on the spirit web for a way that each of us can share our perspectives when they get too far away from topic here. I know that some have tried to set up a web site version of this idea in the past, but I would suggest that a mirror version of this mailing list, based on the "other" travels of the travelers might serve to clear up the desktop here on the keys list, while still not losing one precious insight shared by some for those of us who truly desire to hear them. I, for one, am absolutely intrigued by Christopher's experiences, and I know I would have no other way to "hear" about it if it wasn't for this list. I am also respectful of the original intention of THIS list, and am as eager to continue with it's purpose as I know most of us are. So, I've thrown out one possible solution, one which I think would serve our purposes very well. Now let's see if someone else will pick up the ball and run with it. Or will we stand around and argue over who's ball it is anyway. :) With Blessings, (no, really :) John Post No. keys-1: /1999-06-23/5234 From: J J Dewey Subject: Delay... Spirit web seems to be down so I will wait until tomorrow to make my next post. In the meantime happy conversation. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5235 From: J J Dewey Subject: To Persevere I sent a short post yesterday, but notice it did not show up. I am wondering if there are other posts that may have been lost in the ethers. We are up to twelve qualities which are: (1) Soul contact (2) Holding the mind steady in the light (3) Detachment when necessary. (4) The ability to either send or receive (5) Reflection - contemplation (6) Talent. (7) The power to initiate (8) The ability to create and sense a point of tension. (9) Willingness to sacrifice (10) Discernment (11) Perseverance (12) Inclusiveness Glenys made a great comment on perseverance: "I had one more thought about Perseverance during the night. If one doesn't persevere, one doesn't create a point of tension and therefore the work doesn't get done. We know from what JJ has said that it can appear as if nothing is happening for a long time and we start to wonder sometimes if we're doing the right thing. But then the point of tension is reached and the creation of something new takes place. This can't happen without perseverance." This cannot be stressed enough. Often a disciple reaches a point where nothing seems to happen and he gives up. Then nothing does definitely happen! The nothing happening feeling is an illusion, for as long as you are sustaining energy in the right direction a point of tension is being built that will produce creation. Notice we say "right direction?" Glenys also hits the nail on the head with the following: "However, in saying this, there must sometimes be a fine line between persevering for the right reasons and continuing on with an idea that's not working and will never work because it wasn't the right thing to do in the first place or the environment has changed. I suppose that's where discernment comes in again." He who has soul contact will have a sense that something is off (a disturbance in the force) when he is going the wrong direction but when going the right direction there will be a sense of fullness or completeness and a knowing that he is doing the right thing. The growth of this list and group is a good example. When we hit 100 members we just seemed to hang there and some of us wondered if any more growth was going to happen. Then eventually we took off again. Now we have hit 175 and the hanging thing is happening again with a vengeance and we have even lost a few old timers. On a personality level Rick, me and others wonder if anything is happening out there. But on a soul level here is what I know. First: We are going the right direction Two: The energy we put into the group is going to constructive purpose. Three: A point of tension is mounting. Four: Those who are suppose to be here are staying which is making the group more positive and is laying a correct foundation for things to come. Therefore, it is just a matter of time before the next point of tension is reached and we grow again into something of even higher quality than we have had in the past. I loved Rick's visionary words: "Two thousand years from now we may still be remembered for what we wrote here on this list. They will have a collective name for us and think of us as this name. The individuals in the group will not be as well known as the collective." I do not know if Rick realizes how prophetic he is here. I sense some soul contact here. Indeed this is not just another list. This is a pioneering endeavor that is duplicated no where else that I know of. It is true that there are others teaching classes on the web, but as far as I know this is a first for the introduction of new teachings and principles through the intuitive principle which are virtually unrevealed to the world at large. We are also about to introduce the greatest revelation so far which is the Molecular Relationship. Everything I have written so far is to prepare your minds and hearts for this great principle. It may not seem possible now but if we persevere and do not let the energy dissipate the time will come when this list will split in two, then in four and soon after will have 12 and 24 lists with hundreds of members each. And even then, this will be a mere beginning to the possibilities. The time will come that this internet group will grow to over 144,000, but things will be quite different then. At that time we will make much use of audio and video in our communications as well as the written word. When 144,000 is reached the group will possess a livingness that has hitherto been unrealized and will be a living duplicating organism that nothing can destroy. When that time comes you may rest assured that growth will continue for a thousand years and more and Rick's statement will prove to be true. There will be many in the future age who will wish they could have been back here with us to help initiate a work with so great a cause and purpose. There are a couple other statements I liked: "Commitment shows up in the action of perseverance." Jennifer "Perseverance is the sign of the overcomer. And to that one is given the keys to the kingdom." John "Keys of the kingdom..." Great thought, John. We'll talk more about inclusiveness soon, but in the meantime here is number thirteen in the qualities: (13) Harmlessness Questions: What does it mean to be harmless? Does it mean you will turn into a total wimp? What is the key to following the harmless path? JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5236 From: J J Dewey Subject: Good Comments Good comments Glenys, Dave and Xavier on unrelated posting. Xavier wraps it up with his earthy genius: "So you're immortal? Great for you, but I'm not interested, at least it doesn't make your completely off-topic messages on topic. I guess I sound like croaking to you, but I do suggest that you gain more earth balance in order to be listenable. And remember we are all here (old) seekers of truth, and are not afraid of the idea of immortality and such. (But we want it concretely, not as a dream, see? More than that we know that immortality is much farther in the way, and that the next step that requires our attention is about balance and service, not about seeking ascension and overlooking what life gives is to DO.) "Just have basic respect and presence, and then, you might use it to transmit true high knowledge. Otherwise you'll only fascinate people that reject matter. There are many in-orbiter teachings in the new age, and they are of little use." Was Chris saying he is immortal? I wasn't sure what point he was making? JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5237 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Discernment Glenys Lowery writes: "I know I have good perseverance skills because I'm persevering with this_ email PRE-coffee (you should see all the typos!). But my point of tension has_ been reached so I'm off now to create a cup of coffee - before tension turns to madness :-)" Wow Glenys, I thought I was the only coffeeholic around. If it weren't for_ my son, I would really be "alone" on that one at least under the same_ physical roof. But I don't even turn on the computer until I have had a cup of java. Gotta have that "go juice". lol Hmmmmmm, wonder if there is coffee on the other side. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5238 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: "keysters" I've been with the list since the name "keyster" first appeared. At least I_ think so. Anyway, I happen to like the word. To me it signifies that we are_ giving the collective conscience (or mass mind, or whatever) a good kick in_ the, well, the "keyster". : ) ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5239 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Xaiver's response Bravo, Xaiver, you are NOT an emotional knot, i feel you speak, certainly for us, if not for many more on this list, clearly, straight forward and to the point. For that we thank you very much. sharon ^I^^I^ Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5240 From: Zia Subject: Re: Fw: to new massage of budhism****** Greetings to All, Just a quick thought here, I've got it, it's all Buddha's fault that the men leave their wives and_ children, and all for that magnificent search for enlightenment...hmmm_ interesting how a truly selfless act can be so misused by the masses, so_ misunderstood, and create what seems to be a whole possible pattern of irresponsibility. The impact of duality...and copying the outward actions, not the inner!! Just something I had not considered in its implications to the unenlightened_ mind, and that is another aspect that must be taken into consideration when_ teaching. How will what I teach/do be misinterpreted??!! In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5241 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: You're back! Well, it seems that Spiritweb is up and running again as a few emails are starting to trickle through. I have it say that I've missed you heaps over the past couple of days so much have you become a part of my life. Good to see you back! Love Glenys PS Don't you just love that Xavier. I always think of him as our Warrior with Heart brandishing his sword of truth whenever he feels it's required. A real Knight of the Light! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If you would hear the song of the infinite, listen quietly through the ends of your toes. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5242 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Re: OT - Jay's pic Rick Audette writes: "Yes, Jay, I too enjoyed getting to see you." Yes, Jay's pic got me meditating a minute or two. I had to say it:-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5243 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Where did the list go? "Kevin Shannon" writes: "This is highly unusual. I have not received one solitary email from The Keys of Knowledge List today. Just wondering what is going on." It was a call for you!!!! now we know you! LOL we should do this more often:-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5244 From: "Penny Hughes" Subject: Re: OT--Movies / The Matrix--Wow! I didn't see the Star Trek movie yet but I went to see Matrix last weekend and I too absolutely loved it. It affirmed so much of what I believe. I want to go see it again cause I know I probably missed a lot of things. Trixie Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5245 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: Rick- Disciple qualities Hi Messter, Keyster, Rickster, :o] First Thanks Rick, I have enjoyed seeing yours and every one's photo,it is quite interesting and fun when you can put a face behind what your reading. I do have a favourite pic and I would have to say the Bride of Yoda was great, I got such a laugh :o] "I wonder, do others see themselves as this same creature, or am I tripping. Thinking in terms of what oneness is about certainly does lead me to some wonderful hypothesis. Does anybody else sense this "bigness" of their "self", somehow? Do we begin to see with a bigger eye and hear with a bigger ear? And, by that, we are more strong, maybe even immortal. Two thousand years from now we may still be remembered for what we wrote here on this list. They will have a collective name for us and think of us as this name. The individuals in the group will not be as well known as the collective. Okay, I was daydreaming, but hey, it could happen, right" Yes I have always seen myself as part of something bigger. Like a dot on a bigger picture or a tapestry, love that album :o]. It is funny a couple of people have mentioned immortality lately, I too have been thinking about if we can really be immortal like John? Then along came my guide and pointed me to a passage out of corinthians which I thought really interesting to share. 1 Corinthians Chp 15 vrs51-57 51. Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So yes Rick I would say we can be immortal and one day we all will be. Enjoyed your contemplations. Now back to my listening, learning and reading mode. :o] love, Jay Dare to dream. Feed your dreams, starve your fears - Angel Cards. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-22/5246 From: Zia Subject: Re: Discernment Greetings to All, Ahhh, this list. With so much happening and the definite driving motivating force of 'providing', thought briefly I would side-step responding here. Not a good idea...my life seems to incorporate the lessons as we go!! I get such first hand opportunity, that it begs my response to you. "(11) Perseverance - the ability to always bounce back and continue toward a goal even if things seem hopeless or bleak. This is partly obvious as to why this is needed by the disciple. Can you elaborate on either the obvious or the not-so-obvious?" When I focus on a goal, and keep my attention directed there, so that my efforts are indeed bringing that goal closer to its manifestation in my life, the closer that 'finish line' comes to achieving the goal, I find the greater the tension, and the greater the need for perseverance. That tension is a build-up to manifestation. If there ever was a time for all that does NOT want you to achieve your goal, it will be as you are on the brink of success that the heavy artillery is brought out. And funnily enough it is only myself that can provide the means for this to happen. The 'beast' can only play upon my weaknesses. As I am about to break through to achieving my goal, all my past fears, doubts, disbeliefs and created stumbling blocks rise to the surface to do just that. Why? Because I created this particular experience for my own personal growth and development, so what must come up in order for me to achieve my goal is the clearing of all past conceived obstacles. And they mirror in a multitude of ways into my life. Everything from the telephone system blocking, the fax blocking, the computer developing the most unearthly noise that sounds like its ready to take off, sudden emotional stress from normally supportive camps, then arrangements falling over, and all that is left standing is me. And that's when I know I must rise up to meet all that is right in front of me, and allow it to dissolve, and use whatever I have left to go on to be victorious, calling on God and all that is to assist for all seems to have failed. This happened today...and I and my prospect awaiting a three way call to gain my first truly big order, with many to come. And rise up I did, even when I wanted to quit, feeling that everything had failed me, and I called the prospect saying 'I like you was sitting at the end of my phone waiting for a call...and everything changed from that moment.' I was not going to be beaten, I was not going to release the energy of my focus into anything but my desired goal. And guess what, the guy that wasn't there finally responded to my jumping in his face in the etheric saying ring me, we all came together finally....almost an hour late, and I got my wonderful order. So perseverance for me, is when you want to quit, all the mirrors of separation and the feeling of abandonment are right in your face, and you say, 'No I can do it myself, come on God, come on!!' I trusted what I knew to be true, knew I had to move, that it was up to me. Now I know I can do it. For that I am truly celebrating. "(12) Inclusiveness. Discernment can lead to separations which are necessary, but how does the disciple use inclusiveness in harmony with discernment to avoid the negative aspect of discrimination? How inclusive should the disciple be?" For me inclusiveness feels awkward. I need flexibility to be in any position in the camp, which is based on my soul/spirit/God, irrespective of inclusion or exclusion (separation). Just as I exclude worthless belief systems, and by their exclusion without energy they dissolve away, I find exclusion powerful. Exclusion allows observation, rather than disagreement. However, if I try to apply that to a person...I am in danger of discrimination. They don't think like me so I will exclude them as well. Here for me, beliefs are not the person. My only opportunity to communicate must be through inclusion, not exclusion. It sounds to me like we are talking about creating boundaries, of what we allow into our immediate life. Perhaps I have a difficulty with this control aspect, because if what I am draws what comes to me, then controlling to limit is just delaying seeing what I need to see. Since I live profoundly that what I draw to me is my reflection, past-present-future, I always need to check that this is not 'running in myself' and therefore important for me to understand, and address in myself, then it will not come. We might argue Jesus did not create his crucifixion, but I would have to disagree, because nothing can come to me without my own thought creating it into my reality. Was this not his choice to bring about a message? Because he certainly had a choice. Since I will probably be in hot water now, and I am celebrating one small success, in the line of many to come, I think I'll quit while I 'feel' I am ahead.:) In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5247 From: Zia Subject: Re: OT--Movies / The Matrix--Wow! Greetings to All, and good one Rob!! Yes I saw Matrix. And yes I loved it. Now no one would expect that from me. There's alot of violence in the movie. It is brilliantly done. I have learned to see violence, as simply the outpicturing of someone's angry thoughts. Hence the violence is but a symbol for anger. I found the movie intelligent and very thought provoking. I have recommended it to people that are pretty squeamish about such things, and they have overcome that to see something quite brilliant. The correlations are fun, the children love it, and it so outshown Star Wars...you have my total agreement. I even went back twice. I could count on one had the number of movies I have done that with in my whole life! It had some delightful hidden meanings that I just wanted to re-check, and my son wanted to see it again...and we did. Again I felt a great stimulation of thinking and seeing this world from such a different perspective to the main stream. And to talk with my sons friends about these meanings opened a door in a way nothing has before. I know very 'spiritual' people will balk at the violence, yet that too needs to have the power we give it dissolved. It is well done, and I know I have recommended to a few on this list and met with quite a cold shoulder. You are a brave soul indeed Rob, I salute you. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5248 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Re: Reply to JJ John Kosior writes: "I, for one, am absolutely intrigued by Christopher's experiences, and I know I would have no other way to "hear" about it if it wasn't for this list. I am also respectful of the original intention of THIS list, and am as eager to continue with it's purpose as I know most of us are. So, I've thrown out one possible solution, one which I think would serve our purposes very well." Well that's good that you say it, for there may be others. (I learned english's reading in Tolkien:- ) For me, as annoyed as I am by Chris's posts, I am happy to see them going on if I know some are interested, AND it is clear that all know that I am annoyed:-) And it is outrageously Off-Topic and disrespectful. Now I am very outlaw, so provided everyone is informed of what_ the situation is, it's all right with me to see that weed here.:-) this time, I'm not scared about what I think and say:---))))) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5249 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Tension/Perseverance Zia writes: "see that when the Marriage of Will and Wisdom occurs, I'd say a third force can appear and merge the consciousness of the archer. Is it an entity? Or his/her soul?" Well maybe then you feel the target, the arrow and everything, the future etc..like a part of yourself, like a short astral leap :-) Like "chi" in eastern arts. (very idealised and imaginary, but once lived:-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5250 From: Susi Subject: Re: reply to Rick and all Keysters "now I am surrounded by those that enrich my perspective. I now have hundreds of eyes and ears and begin to feel like I am a creature that is as big as a whole planet. I am both a member of this group and I am the group itself. I see everybody's words come across my monitor and can scarce speak up, before a half dozen others have said it so well." Rick, I have been meaning to compliment you on manifesting this list.....the Keysters! (The Keys of Knowledge) Yes to what you have written here, you did this so well ;-) "I wonder, do others see themselves as this same creature, or am I tripping. Thinking in terms of what oneness is about certainly does lead me to some wonderful hypothesis. Does anybody else sense this "bigness" of their "self", somehow?" I have been sensing this bigness for a very long time now, it is good to hear you put it in words. I started feeling it and knowing it prior to finding it, but it does feel good every time a find another piece to add to it ;-) "Do we begin to see with a bigger eye and hear with a bigger ear?" Yes...............quietly listen to our collective consciousness........Shhhhhhh.......it sounds so sweet and soothing, almost like constantly being caressed (loved). "And, by that, we are more strong, maybe even immortal." We are ;-) "Two thousand years from now we may still be remembered for what we wrote here on this list. They will have a collective name for us and think of us as this name. The individuals in the group will not be as well known as the collective." What a beautiful thought, not that we are remembered, but that we have created something worth remembering. Individual recognition is not what is desired of listers we are as one and help to spread the word. Each of us in our own way with a common goal. I think the biggest gift of all would be to remember my own existence since time began fully more than to be remembered by others for any of my accomplishments or short comings, this would be success for me with a devine connection to Source. "Okay, I was daydreaming, but hey, it could happen, right" RIGHT and daydreaming is sometimes the best place to start a new creation, if you don't mind I would love to daydream with all of you. Wonderful volumes of wisdom come pouring out of the minds of you listers, sometimes you even take the time to place this wisdom for all to benefit from in the form of a post to this list, but if we are real quite we can hear each others wisdom even with out the aid of the posts. I'm so grateful that some of you are not the silent type. Much Love and Many Blessings to all of you;-) Susi Alexander The Healing Hearth "http://www.healinghearth.com" Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5251 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Reply to JJ "initiate a "Keysters Friends" list says John K" Great idea, John. That's just how this list got started. Someone just did it. Something to think about, you might want to put it on another server, so that if one goes down the other stays on. Onelist is a good place to create one and others on the list can name more. Any member at Spiritweb can start a mailing list. Here's how I did it. Go to the link about forming new lists. Download the form. Fill out the form and e-mail it back. The form wants to know what the list will be called, open or closed forum (moderated/unmoderated) and the names and e-mail address of 10 people that would like to join said list. In a week or so the new list is created and people can begin subscribing to it. BTW, 7/11 of the original sign up group for the Keys of Knowledge are still members. Marilyn Maple Shaila Pacheco d.linen Isabelle JJ Dave Curtis Rick Thanks goes to them for starting it. And thanks goes to all the folks that have been here from the start, that helped form it. And thanks to all the new people that join us every day and make us grow strong. I'm off to the airport to pick Rachel up. She's been in Florida all month. I'll be glad to see her. Have fun starting the new list, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com And what a thing a child can be, The chord that bonds them all If it is one with both of us, Then we are one with all Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-24/5252 From: Rick Audette Subject: We're Back Yes, something seems to have happened at spiritweb, but now the list seems to be coming through again. I haven't received any news from the web master about what happened, yet. Where I work, we have our own company server and I have watched it's behavior. All matter possesses consciousness. Billions of logical decisions all linked together produces a powerful, living, thinking and breathing creature who is being controlled by a handful of techs that are working overtime, to keep up with the latest technology. This creature is subject to all the ebbs and flows that the rest of life is subjected to and it has it's good days and it's bad days. This time, we took it pretty good. I didn't get as many "what's up's" as might be expected. Many just took the night (day) off, knowing all would be well soon. There is a great work to be done here and I think, somehow, it will continue. I'm just glad to be back, y'all. Love, Rick -- ICQ 19753992 visit my web pages at http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/ have you read "The Immortal" http://www.freeread.com Lovin' you's been so much fun, I hope I see you one day. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-23/5253 From: Zia Subject: Buddha Message Greetings to all, Just a quick note, John I laughed at your story of Buddha's return to his wife and child. I saw though a different scenario...I know you were joking, however thought I would put forward this... When Buddha returned he indeed indicated he was not the same man that had left. As he stood before his wife and child, the powerful energy and love flowing from him brought his wife into his arms, in the most exquisite hug...in that hug all the pain and suffering dropped away, and she was given the sight to see all that he had been through, and all that he had become, as he gently whispered in her ear, 'I returned to give you the gifts of my Father...he did not come to create suffering but to give His gifts that dispel all suffering and pain, and open us to the kingdom of Heaven.' His child in awe at the splendor of his father, and the joy of the reunion_ with his mother...also went forward into his father's loving arms, and received the gifts of His FAther.... In the wonder of the power of Christ/Buddha love, healing is often instantaneous and insightful. All things do indeed change because of this state of being. Just thought I would heal the hearts of many women left in distress realising that if her beloved returns in a truly enlightened state there is a gift for all. In love and laughter, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5254 From: "Christopher Wynter" Subject: Truth and Thought ... Wisdom and Knowledge Truth is ... You can 'know' your own partial aspect of Truth .. Truth is fluid, continuous, ever changing ... The moment you put words around fluid Truth you impose a boundary, a separation of Truth from itself ... and so you have thought ... Thought is not Truth ... for every thought there is opposite thought ... for all knowledge there is a lack of knowledge ... Learning is the aquisition of thought ... The thought process is scientifically measurable Truth is not measurable ... because the measurement process involves the projection of thought which will influence that being measured ... Study will bias thought with the interpretative filters of the student ... words will create perceptual barriers according to the learned meanings of the words ... the word is the expression of Thought... Truth is ... Man created God ... from thought ... The Truth always is, was, and shall be for ever more ... constant yet changing ... The door that needs a key is an illusion ... From one came two, from two came three, from three came ten thousand other things ... (Tao) Christopher Wynter Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5255 From: Marylin Subject: Fwd: If you have a moment PLEASE READ! - OT All about love(tm)(tm) "The Doll and a White Rose" "I hurried into the local department store to grab some last minute Christmas gifts. I looked at all the people and grumbled to myself. I would be in here forever and I just had so much to do. Christmas was beginning to become such a drag. I kind of wished that I could just sleep through Christmas. But I Hurried the best I could through all the people to the toy department. Once again, I kind of mumbled to myself at the prices of all these toys, and wondered if the grandkids would even play with them." "I found myself in the doll aisle. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw a little boy about 5 holding a lovely doll. He kept touching her hair and he held her so gently. I could not seem to help myself. I just kept looking over at the little boy and wondered who the doll was for. I watched him turn to a woman and he called his aunt by name and said, "Are you sure I don't have enough money?" "She replied a bit impatiently, "You know that you don't have enough money for it." "The aunt told the little boy not to go anywhere, that she had to go get some other things and would be back in a few minutes. And then she left the aisle. The boy continued to hold the doll. After a bit, I asked the boy who the doll was for. He said, "It is the doll my sister wanted so badly for Christmas. She just knew that Santa would bring it." I told him that maybe Santa was going to bring it. He said "No, Santa can't go where my sister is. I have to give the doll to my Mama to take to her." "I asked him where his sister was. He looked at me with the saddest eyes and said "She was gone to be with Jesus. My Daddy says that Mama is going to have to go be with her." My heart nearly stopped beating. Then the boy looked at me again and said, "I told my Daddy to tell Mama not to go yet. I told him to tell her to wait till I got back from the store". Then he asked me if I wanted to see his picture. I told him I would love to. He pulled out some pictures he'd had taken at the front of the store. He said "I want my Mama to take this with her so she won't ever forget me. I love my Mama so very much and I wish she did not have to leave me. But Daddy says she will need to be with my sister." "I saw that the little boy had lowered his head and had grown so very quiet. While he was not looking I reached into my purse and pulled out a handful of bills. I asked the little boy, "Shall we count that money one more time?" He grew excited and said "Yes, I just know it has to be enough". "So I slipped my money in with his and we began to count it. Of course, it was plenty for the doll. He softly said, "Thank you, Jesus, for giving me enough money." Then the boy said "I just asked Jesus to give me enough money to buy this doll so Mama can take it with her to give to my sister. And He heard my prayer. I wanted to ask Him for enough to buy my Mama a white rose, but I didn't ask Him, but He gave me enough to buy the doll and a rose for my Mama. She loves white roses so very, very much." "In a few minutes the aunt came back and I wheeled my cart away. I could not keep from thinking about the little boy as I finished my shopping in a totally different spirit than when I had started. And I kept remembering a story I had seen in the newspaper several days earlier about a drunk driver hitting a car and killing a little girl and the mother was in serious condition. The family was deciding on whether to remove the life support. Now surely this little boy did not belong with that story." "Two days later I read in the paper where the family had disconnected the life support and the young woman had died. I could not forget the little boy and just kept wondering if the two were somehow connected. Later that day, I could not help myself and I went out and bought some white roses and took them to the funeral home where the young woman was. And there she was holding a lovely white rose, the beautiful doll, and the picture of the little boy in the store. I left there in tears, my life changed forever." "The love that little boy had for his little sister and his mother was overwhelming. And in a split second, a drunk driver had ripped the life of that little boy to pieces." "You now have the choice, you can: 1) pass this on to your friends or 2) delete it and act like it didn't touch your heart. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5256 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Rick- Disciple qualities Jay wrote: "Hi Messter, Keyster, Rickster, :o] First Thanks Rick, I have enjoyed seeing yours and every one's photo, it is quite interesting and fun when you can put a face behind what your reading. I do have a favourite pic and I would have to say the Bride of Yoda was great, I got such a laugh :o]" It warms my heart that the revelation of my beauty to the world has brought you such happiness, Jay. Your joy helps me forget for a time the pain of the separation from my beloved Yoda. However, there are also other comforts on this planet and one of them is the movieThe Matrix. I agree it was superb and provided a good role for Keanu Reeves who seems to specialize in understatement (this is the most complimentary thing I can say about his acting skills; a Yodic princess cannot be unkind as she strives to live a life of harmlessness :-). The violence didn't worry me at all because it was very surreal and like others, I intend to see it again, if only to enjoy its technical excellence once again. My biggest gripe is that it had none of my fellow Yodic beings in it. Our presence would have added to both the plot and the cinematography and would have brought much needed beauty to balance the unattractiveness of all those walk-ins :-) Love The Bride of Yoda -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If you would hear the song of the infinite, listen quietly through the ends of your toes. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5257 From: Marylin Subject: Re: To Persevere J J Dewey writes: "(13) Harmlessness Questions: What does it mean to be harmless? Does it mean you will turn into a total wimp? What is the key to following the harmless path?" Guess I will take a stab at this one as it has been a challenge for me all my life. To be harmless is to do NO harm to anyone or anything. (Without realizing it sometimes, we do harm to many things/persons. Things like taking credit that belongs to another, saying mean things that may or may not be intended. Frowning disapprovingly at another. Infringing on the free will of others.) If doing NO harm turns me into a wimp, then so be it. But I would rather think of it as following in our Father's way, and that takes a whole lot of strength of character, perseverance, desire, the whole bit. I think attempting to follow the ten commandments creates the most harmless conditions guess I had better recommit them to memory again. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5258 From: John Kosior Subject: Re : Re: Reply to JJ xavier wrote: "John K: I, for one, am absolutely intrigued by Christopher's experiences,_ Now I am very outlaw, so provided everyone is informed of what the situation is, it's all right with me to see that weed here. :-) this time, I'm not scared about what I think and say:---)))))" Hey There Xavier, First off, "see that 'weed' here", is one of the funniest things I've heard from you. :))). So to make my perspective really clear, I didn't mean to say that I found Chris's posts to be "intellectually" stimulating, because there is of course no way to confirm (even in my soul) that they have any truth to them. But even in a lie, one can find the truth of that lie. If you can see that. Like for instance, we have had discussion here on maya, glamour, and illusion. If you can't see any "good" in Christopher's post (and methods) perhaps you haven't considered what a fine example of glamour is involved in this kind of "multiple posting", just to get your "story" told? But of course, as my professors in college used to say when a question popped up that they didn't want to deal with (or didn't know the answer to :), "that goes beyond the scope of this course". :) And so to Chris I say, if you meet with this kind of resistance to your postings because they are "off topic", maybe you would consider this, try posting an "invitation" to read your actual story to the list. Then just allow us to respond to you privately and off list if we would like to receive it and let us decide. (Making proper use of the "(OT)" written in the subject line, of course:) As for me, please feel free to include me in your mailings. I want to be honest with you though, I'm not saying that I either "believe" your story or not. But what I do "sense" is a genuine, if not over zealous :) desire to share an experience which excites and blesses you. And I would walk with you as I walk with so many. Because if you're experience is real, we will both benefit. If your experience is some "trick of the devil" :o) so to speak, then who knows that I wouldn't be the one that helps you in THAT discovery? In either case, "Truth" reigns supreme with me, so it both teaches me from others "truths" as well as guiding me harmlessly through "error". Folks, we talk about seeing our problems as opportunities. Might I VERY humbly suggest that we can turn vinegar into honey if that's what's in our hearts. And it's how we react to the vinegar in our lives that defines us, better than how we react to the honey. This isn't MY truth, Jesus said it way first, "if you do good only to those who do good to you, of what value is that? Don't even the 'unbelievers' do that?" Of course I mean NO offense in this! (I'm actually 'bowing' to the monitor as if it were all of you :) Most of you know my heart, and offense is not my style anyway. :o) But there's a big object lesson in this which is mostly a lesson TO ME, but one that I chose to share with you. To JJ, consider me 100% in support of moving on with the "keys". I want to assure you that I am continuously waiting with baited breath the next answer AND the next question that you will present. I enjoy this that much. So forgive me for intruding on this string of OTs and continuing it, but I wanted to share a few alternatives that could perhaps curb the situation for good of the whole. And I took this approach largely due to your teachings on finding the best for the whole. I know you have this kind of heart, so you can consider that "forgiving me" thing to be rhetorical. :))))) Blessings To Absolutely Everyone, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5259 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: Rick- Disciple qualities Sorry Yoda, For my insensitivity. But I still love that photo its great and Glenys you have an incredible sense of humor. ;o] I must say over the last couple of weeks I have had some incredible healing wonderful joyful laughs from reading some posts. I value that laughter especially after spending a great deal of time not being able too. It really is such a wonderful gift. Thank you everyone. Loved your Budha Thoughts Zia ;o] love, Jay Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5260 From: "Jay" Subject: Re: Xavier "Yes, Jay's pic got me meditating a minute or two. I had to say it:-)" :o] Thanks Xavier after a hmmm kind of couple of days I have to say to you how sweet. Love, Jay Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5261 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Xaiver's response (Richard/ Sharon) write: "Bravo, Xaiver, you are NOT an emotional knot, i feel you speak, certainly for us, if not for many more on this list, clearly, straight forward and to the point." Thanks, this knot is what I feel when I look too much behind me, I guess:-) Reflection out of fear. Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5262 From: John Kosior Subject: (OT) Coffee Lovers Marylin wrote: "lol Hmmmmmm, wonder if there is coffee on the other side." Hi Fellow Coffee Aficionados, This is Zor. And I have come to you through this medium by your deep concerns that "coffee" will be lost on the "other side". I would assure you all that in all of the universe, there is no other beverage more appreciated than our beloved java. However, I must tell you that on the other side, there is only decaffeinated coffee. As adding even one more boost of energy there, would simply cause you to explode! But for now, you must all drink caffinated coffee. Because if there was ever a race of beings which needed help WAKING UP, it has got to be you earthlings. These have been the words of Zor. Take it or leave it, but I'm going to refill my coffee cup! :o)) Blessings, John PS These are the words of Juan Valdez, "I want to say "gracias" for making me such a rich man. :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5263 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: You're back! Glenys Lowery wrote: "PS Don't you just love that Xavier. I always think of him as our Warrior with Heart, brandishing his sword of truth whenever he feels it's required. A real Knight of the Light!" HERE, HERE!!!! Well put, Glenys! Xavier's Friend, John :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-25/5264 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : To Persevere I see why spiritweb was down, digestion problems:-) J J Dewey writes: "Indeed this is not just another list. This is a pioneering endeavor that is duplicated no where else that I know of. It is true that there are others teaching classes on the web, but as far as I know this is a first for the introduction of new teachings and principles through the intuitive principle which are virtually unrevealed to the world at large. We are also about to introduce the greatest revelation so far which is the Molecular Relationship. Everything I have written so far is to prepare your minds and hearts for this great principle." Well I read all of these paragraphs, and I am reacting this way: Some urge, some light, some big time energy somewhere. At the same time, I know that heart musn't control the head. (like: "it is beautiful then it's true") And I know and understand too little with my head about what you are describing JJ, to make a judgment. And I certainly don't want to believe out of heart or feeling alone. "It may not seem possible now but if we persevere and do not let the energy dissipate the time will come when this list will split in two, then in four and soon after will have 12 and 24 lists with hundreds of members each. And even then, this will be a mere beginning to the possibilities. The time will come that this internet group will grow to over 144,000, but things will be quite different then. At that time we will make much use of audio and video in our communications as well as the written word." For what I see now, the teaching of the principle of Molecular Relationship may very well be an important thing that has to spread to the whole world. But I do not know, as you say you do, that you are the only one today to speak about it. Isn't it a classic way of work of the Brotherhood to spread new "knowledge" by different mediums, adapted to the multiplicity of people, countries, and activities? Don't Masters work on the mental plane, where they create and vivify certain thought-forms, that are afterwards received and "translated" by disciples all over the world? That's what I understood. "When 144,000 is reached the group will possess a livingness that has hitherto been unrealized and will be a living duplicating organism that nothing can destroy. When that time comes you may rest assured that growth will continue for a thousand years and more and Rick's statement will prove to be true. There will be many in the future age who will wish they could have been back here with us to help initiate a work with so great a cause and purpose." Okay, it is too much for me to accept with what I *know* now. It remains as an opening picture of something that might happen. In fact, a thought I have is: can it be a delusion of yours? What you say seems possible to me, but too hazy and far-off, as well as too precisely BIG, especially because it is centered on you and us. On the world at large, well yes molecular principles really seem like an answer to many questions. But your picture, in my limited point of view of course, is like a dream. So until I have more informations, or principles learned, it remains a picture. (had to say it, again:-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5265 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Rick- Disciple qualities "I wonder, do others see themselves as this same creature, or am I tripping." Hi Rick And All, This is of course just synchronistic thinking at work. Yes, my friend, you are FAR from alone. In fact, since I think in pictures, let me share the image I see. Imagine for a moment, a huge diamond hovering in the midst of space. Then picture all of humanity being summoned to come to this Jewel. We all are surrounding this Gem and finding that there are an infinite number of facets to behold, We hear the call from God, "When you all have joined your hands and shared the facets that you can see, then you will see Me [more] completely". This is what you have contributed to with this list. You've helped many to connect hands who otherwise may not have at this time. (Here I go again, bowing to the monitor :) "The monitor is not Rick. The monitor is not Rick". Ok, I'm back. :) But yes, I'd say that most of us "see" what you "see". And we LIKE IT! In Appreciation And Good Wishes, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5266 From: Marylin Subject: Re: "keysters" Brian Weis writes: "a good kick in the, well, the "keyster". : )" ROFL Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5267 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Good Comments J J Dewey writes: "Was Chris saying he is immortal? I wasn't sure what point he was making?" "yes:" "Respectfully ... might I suggest that the ability of two entities to manifest their future selves into a physical body 5 years before they were born is the essence of immortality ... especially when they have full remembering of that manifestation? Christopher Wynter" I admit he doesn't say he is one of the two explicitly. But in the context it is "decousu", hmm.. like a lack of structure. ("unsewed? (to saw, I think)) Drama: he posts a long new agey post, far off topic and over the moon. you and Glenys tell him very politely that it IS off topic. then his answer is: I have proofs that I am immortal (my translation). in the context it means: I can post what I want because I am this and that:-) (IAM ONTOPIC?) (but I should reread all, tis an interpretation of mine) Or is it: I manifested my future self in a physical body five years before... well never mind, then it is the essence of immortality. But how does it relate to the topic that his previous mass posts are off topic? Enlighten me. If I am ego related and don't see the moon or the light that is in there, please say it. I feel like the "philosophers" reading my posts about esotericism (Deunov extracts, last time, someone posts them and I try_ to explain them) on their Newsgroup of "philosophy" :-)) ("what? you're a racist!" and me "nooo, men are souls not bodies:-)" (topic: the mission of the white race: to develop the intelligence) "what? you're disguising your evilness!!" etc LOL) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5268 From: Marylin Subject: Re: You're back! Glenys Lowery writes: "If you would hear the song of the infinite, listen quietly through the ends of your toes." Very Profound. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06-25/5269 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Harmlessness "(13) Harmlessness_ Questions: What does it mean to be harmless? Does it mean you will turn into a total wimp? What is the key to following the harmless path? JJ" Yes. I think it means you will turn into a total wimp. Just kidding. Couldn't resist having a go, JJ, at your oh-so-subtle turn of phrase which provides the slightest of nuances that the answer may be to the contrary! Really I think being able to evaluate what is potentially harmful from that which is harmless requires quite some discernment in those cases where the distinction is not obvious. (I am beginning to see just how much each of the qualities we are discussing are interwoven with each other.) More than just being harmless I would have thought it important to be beneficial. Jesus was able to give the same sort of message (feed people) on many levels so that all could receive what they needed (ie the diet