1999 - WEEK 18 Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4210 From: Rick Audette Subject Virtue of the week Funny how often these things fit right in with what's being discussed. I am only presenting them in the same order that they are on the page. http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/virtue.htm Rick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Discrimination With discrimination, one is able to perceive the motives and character of others and to see the real truth below the surface of a situation. He can read between the lines. He can distinguish the excellent and the appropriate, judge between what is good and what is better and choose his course of action in the light of universal laws. He is able to perceive the falsehoods in teachings being spread disguised as all that is good and beautiful. Intuition is a natural outgrowth of the power of discrimination. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4211 From: J J Dewey Subject: May the Truth be Revealed There must be something in the air during this Wesak period. I've had several confrontations come out of the woodwork in my personal life and now several on this list. I do not mind them as it is part of the principle of Harmony Through Conflict, but it is interesting that I personally see this energy intensified in my outer world during this period. Personally, I have felt a tremendous inner peace the past couple of days, especially on the Wesak day. I sense that some of you on the list have felt it also. Nevertheless, the energies that bring peace to some bring turmoil to others. Angela seems disgusted with me for reasons unknown or imagined. Let us examine her comments. JJ Quote: "I thought I'd make a few comments on this answer since this outlook on the student teacher relationship is quite popular in the new age community. That is many feel that if there is a student teacher relationship it means that the student must experience the humiliation of being at a "lower level." Since this seems disgusting to many they instead teach that there are no teachers and no leaders but all are teachers and leaders and all are students and followers." Angela Quote: "So, now you're addressing the New Age Community, not what I wrote. I do not find being a student to be humiliating." JJ Comment: I was addressing what you wrote to the best of my ability and pointing out that many (but not all) in the new age community follow the same trend of thought. I don't see that this is a point worthy of criticism. I am glad that you do not find being a student to be humiliating. We are in agreement on this point. JJ Quote: "Since this seems disgusting to many they instead teach that there are no teachers and no leaders but all are teachers and leaders and all are students and followers." To this Angela asks: "Is it necessarily true that the "teacher" will be more advanced than the "student" in ALL areas of knowledge? JJ Comment: No. I have never taught or thought such a thing. Why are you assuming that I have??? Angela again asks: "Cannot each teach the other something? Cannot the Spanish speaker teach Spanish and the English speaker teach English and each be the others' student and each the others' teacher?" JJ Comment: "Of course. For instance Xavier can teach French about a thousand times better than I can. Again I ask where do you get the idea would think otherwise????" You need to reread what I said to you. Let me quote again the sentence that seems to be a problem to you: "Since this seems disgusting to many they instead teach that there are no teachers and no leaders but all are teachers and leaders and all are students and followers." Note that I was pointing out the belief of many that THERE ARE NO TEACHERS and NO LEADERS. But even you agree with me here that there are teachers so your argument here is based on a misunderstanding of my words. JJ Quote: "In addition to that let us re-examine a true teaching situation: The Spanish teacher knows the language teaching those who do not know. Does this have anything to do with belief systems? "None. Either the teacher knows Spanish (algebra or whatever) or he does not. To attain a position of a true teacher has to do with the acquisition of knowledge, not belief. "Who wants to learn from a teacher who just has some nebulous belief system? A student willing to do so gets what he deserves." To this Angela answers: "Here is where the issue of humiliation enters the picture. And it is not a matter of the student "feeling" humiliated, but a matter of the teacher actually humiliating the student by insisting on being seen as an absolute authority." Are you insinuating that I am presenting myself as an absolute authority? Are you just trying to pick a fight here or do you have some basis for this accusation??? Most who has been on the list for while would tell you the opposite about me. Samu has my teachings posted at: http://www.dlc.fi/~samu3/JJArchives.html I spent about a book's worth of writings on the wrong use of authority. I think that if you go to Samu's site and read my posts for the first couple of months you will come away with a different opinion of me. I challenge you or anyone else to find even one statement I have made where I am trying to set myself up as an absolute authority. Angela writes: "It is disempowering of the individual to give away their power to a teacher by choosing to believe that the teacher has absolute truths of knowledge." JJ Comment: It is not disempowering to find absolute truth in the writings of a teacher, a personal experience or book. If I teach that 2+2 = 4 and you find out that is absolutely true that gives you power to do math. It does not take away your power. Such a thought is illusion. You teach many absolutes on your web page. If you think this disempowers people why do you do that which is against your belief??? Where many students do give away their power is by accepting a teacher as an authority and his statements as true without first testing them to make sure the teacher knows what he is talking about. Angela continues: "By the student approaching the teacher with the concept that the teacher has beliefs, i.e. relative truths, and using discernment of the information presented by the teacher, the student may decide what of the teachings are true for her/him, testing the information, rather than blindly accepting as absolute truth, and becoming susceptible to being led astray by a false teaching." JJ Comment: As I told you I wrote almost a book's worth of information against blind acceptance of a teacher. I wanted to make this point very strongly at the beginning of the course so we would not have to cover this ground again and again. If you read my first 50 posts you should realize that this concern you possess is unfounded. JJ Quote: "In addition to there being true teachers there are true students. The true student desires to acquire true knowledge, not a belief system. The true student realizes that knowledge is useful and belief is illusionary. The true student tests the teacher and makes sure that the teacher is one who is capable of leading him or her to greater knowledge. "The true student (or one who is really learning) does not see himself as on a "lower level." Instead he seems himself as one who is progressing to a 'higher level.'" To this Angela writes: "And when the teacher loses that perspective for him/her self, their teaching will become stale. By the teacher thinking that they have arrived at absolute truth and knowledge and wisdom, and setting their self up as an absolute authority in everything they speak, and suggesting that the student either accept in totality every word as truth or reject the teacher as a whole... JJ Comment: Are you suggesting I am setting myself up as an absolute authority? Again, find even one statement that suggests such a thing. The truth is the opposite. I have taught that no one outside of the Holy Spirit can be relied upon for unprovable spiritual truths. Angela continues: "By your definitions, I am not a true student, for I refuse to accept a "true teacher" as an absolute authority, or their teachings as absolute truth." JJ Comment: There's no point in me refuting this because you must have been reading statements from some teacher on some other list on this one. I have always taught that I am not an absolute authority. Angela quote: "By your definitions of the teacher - student relationship, you are seeking blind followers." JJ Comment: I think most of the people on this list would be interested in knowing where you get this idea. I teach by using the intuitive principle which depends on asking questions and stimulating the student to reflect on his own soul for the answer. This method does not draw blind followers, but draws people who desire inner contact. Angela Quote: "...and I hereby reject you as a "true teacher", for to me a true teacher would advise their students to always question all teachings AND all teachers." JJ Comment: Again. You must be talking about another teacher here. I have taught the idea of questioning many times. On the other hand, I did not see you advising your students to question you about your teachings on your web page. You state that no one has all the truth but I couldn't find you advising readers to question you. In fact you had no questions and answers as we have here as far as I read anyway. Angela Quote: "It is a standard practice of the forces of darkness to use covert manipulation to lead those of the light astray into the darkness, by presenting just enough truth to get the innocent to follow them as authorities, and then mix their deceptive teachings of darkness with the teachings of light. A true teacher would warn the student of this possibility, and that the student should never fully trust a teacher. JJ Comment: On this point I agree and I have warned of this in numerous ways. The most potent warning was in my book, The Immortal, through the character of Philo. This presentation probably demonstrates the subtleties of deception better than just teaching it directly. I have received many positive letters commenting on this section of the book. "If you meet the Buddha upon the road, kill him." People think this is a cool statement but when you think about it, it is stupid. Suppose the first student of the Buddha killed him? The world would have missed a great light and the mission of Christ would not have been as successful as it was. I believe the point of the original writer was that we should avoid any absolute authority outside of inner soul contact, but I would call this a bad choice of words. When another great teacher incarnated after the Buddha, who was Jesus, they did crucify him. So do you think those who sentenced Jesus to death achieved greater enlightenment than those who sat at his feet and listened? I don't think so. Angela accuses: "You claim to be the Buddha..." JJ in the Present: Where did I make this claim? And even if I did or even if you do that is within our freedom to do so. A teacher should be prepared to back up any claim he makes, however. Angela quote: "...so I now kill you in my perception as Buddha, oh deceiver and leader astray and disempowerer of discernment. JJ in the Present: The difference between you and me is you seek to kill. I seek to give life. Angela Quote: "The highest teaching is of discernment. You put students' acceptance of the teacher over teaching them to use their own discernment." Discernment is indeed a high teaching. On this point we agree but why do you throw out a mindless accusation that I "put students' acceptance of the teacher over teaching them to use their own discernment?" Did you just wake up angry and decide to attack someone today even if they did nothing to deserve such attack? I am sorry you feel negative here. Perhaps I was thoughtless and said something offensive. If this was the case I do give my heartfelt apologies and invite you to stay on the list and interrogate me all you wish. By the way, I notice that you are using the Song of the 144,000 on your web page. I am happy to see the Song posted everywhere possible, but several things concern me. I have given permission to change the word "Father" to "God" or "Father/Mother God," but you have made additional changes to it that I have not authorized, particularly in the last verse. I would even allow this if you posted the original and then yours as a revised copy so readers could "choose" to say the Song in its original state if desired. Also where the Song is posted you must post a copyright notice. You can chose (c) 1997 by J J Dewey or From The Immortal Book I, (c) 1997 by J J Dewey Also those posting can add: "The Song of the 144,000 may be posted or duplicated if the above copyright notice is included." Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4212 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: May the Truth be Revealed J J Dewey wrote: "Personally, I have felt a tremendous inner peace the past couple of days, especially on the Wesak day. I sense that some of you on the list have felt it also. Nevertheless, the energies that bring peace to some bring turmoil to others." Yes, I have felt it. Granted I was a little put out that I had to set my alarm for 3am on Saturday morning for the start of Wesak (especially as I forgot to set it back to its usual time of 6:00am and it went off this morning - Monday - at 3am again. I leapt out of bed and was doing morning things for about 10 minutes before I realized. Ugh!) But the early wake up was worth it as I had a great little ceremony, ostensibly all by myself, but in reality, with all of you. And the full moon was particularly glorious. I have read that the planet's spiritual energies are the strongest at Wesak and indeed, it is a time of great blessing for all humankind. Certainly I have felt a peace of mind and heart over the past few days that I've have held close to my heart, especially as my life can be somewhat hectic. I have also felt particularly close to people on this list, both those who email and those who don't. However, I accept that it could have gone the other way and instead I could have been going around killing Buddhas. I'm very pleased I wasn't though and instead have been giving thanks for all the blessings that have come into my life since discovering all of you. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To live is so startling it leaves little room for anything else. - Emily Dickinson Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4213 From: "Jill" Subject: Love is enough Hello JJ, Angela (If you are Still on the List and All, I had a message given to me a couple of days ago and I find this is the appropriate time to post this hear. The message is of 1 John Chp4 7 to 21 however I think the whole chapter is appropriate to read at this time for those of you who wish to read it in your bible. I will quote only a few verses that I am led to quote. 4.1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 4.2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of god: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus christ is come in the flesh is of God. 4.6 We are of God: he that knoweth God hereth us; he that is not of God hereth not us. Hereby know that we "The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error" The Source of Love 4.7 Beloved let us love one another for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. 4.8 He that loveth not knoweth not God: For "God Is Love" 4.12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 4.18 There is no fear in Love but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in Love. 4.19 We love him because he first loved us. 4. 20 If a man say I love God and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he have seen. 4.21 This commandment have we from him that he who loveth God love his brother also. I once read Namaste means The God in Me recognises the God in you. So if God is love then this can be translated as: The love in Me recognises the love in you. I love that we all have freewill to have different views and freewill to Accept and acknowledge all views. love to all, Jill I am becoming all I decide to become - JJ Dewey. The Immortal http://www.freeread.com Peace/Love begin within Love is Enough - Dr WW. Dyer. Your Sacred Self Every Me =3D A We - Dr WW. Dyer. Real Magic Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4214 From: J J Dewey Subject: Bumper Stickers I got the bumper stickers back from the printer so we should be sending the stickers and transfers out today. We also received the second edition of the book from the bindery so for those of you who may have been waiting for a book the past week or so this will be on its way also. The company that binds our books had two cutters go out on him as he started trimming the book. It is rare to have one cutter go out but he has never had two go out before. Fortunately, he was able to rent an extra one and finish the job. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4215 From: J J Dewey Subject: Apollonius According to history Apollonious and Jesus were born about the same time, but Apollonius lived to about the age of 100. The Master Jesus could have either overshadowed Apollonius or the original entity could have stepped aside so Jesus could have the body. To find out for sure on this particular question I must find out all I can on my own before I can get any information from either the Brotherhood or through my soul. I do plan on investigating Apollonius more when I get a chance and will let you know if I get additional light on this. I know Alice A. Bailey's writings are very accurate in most cases. It is hard to believe D.K. could have made such a blatant error. Sometimes the Tibetan Master and AAB argued back and forth as to how the concepts were to be worded and I believe there are minor errors here and there. There are also some "blinds" in the writings. Some misleading statements are made to hide dangerous knowledge from the masses yet at the same time holding clues to initiates. It is also possible that the Apollonius statement is a blind. How about the group applying their expertise here. Which one strikes a cord with you: 1.. The Tibetan through (or because of) Alice A. Bailey made a mistake 2. Jesus Overshadowed or entered the body of Apollonius. 3. The statement is a blind and we need to look for something else here Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4216 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Re: The True Student Zia writes: "Greetings to All, Whew, ooollaaaalaaahhh, hmmmmm, I have a different perspective here. Happily I have experienced a profound teacher for 15 years, that challenged me in every perspective,....." Thanks .Zia, you reminded me that the people I most love to be with, and with which I most learn (in real life), are the ones who treat me as equal, and never institute a relation of I give-you receive, nor the contrary. Or rather I am-you are not :-) This is to say that it is no good to look at someone in a dependent way. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4217 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : May the Truth be Revealed J J Dewey writes: "There must be something in the air during this Wesak period. I've had several confrontations come out of the woodwork in my personal life and now several on this list." Well yes, this is a true confrontation with Angela. I'm happy to have brought her here, though I'm someway feeling responsible for having triggered a fight. I don't take this affair seriously, I mean that she went straight to what needs to be cleared between her beliefs and the teachings of JJ. But I don't take her as negative, tho she answered with heat. The fact that she claimed JJ claims to be absolute authority shows she built an illusion in order to hide to herself what truth provoked her. I have the fancy that the sentence "such a student gets what he deserves" was very provocative, and set her off:-) I do take it as a proof of her quickness and clarity, but I hope I didn't cause trouble (a fight is not always welcome, and sometimes tiresome), and I hope also that people don't judge me as a trouble-maker. But anyway, whatever your opinions, I follow my little finger:-) (but if you think so, say it to me, i'm all ears, I know I'm irresponsible and deluded in some extent) PS Yes, I also felt a great peace on friday. This is good, and very encourageing for the future of Humankind this year. PS2 I had this song in mind these days, I love it: Let the river run let all the dreamers wake the nation Come the New Jerusalem Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4218 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Apollonius As I thought about the situation with Apollonius and Jesus after Clive's email, I saw how it was a good example of the desirability of sticking to principles rather than facts as the latter can be so wrong and change according to new knowledge. But I also found it difficult to believe that DK would get such an incorrect point wrong as I imagine that the various incarnations and initiations of Jesus would be fairly common knowledge within the Hierarchy. So my guess is that Jesus overshadowed Apollonius. If it was a blind, I can't see at this stage what purpose it would have served. Intriguing. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sticks and stones may break my bones, but so would an 80 lb. carrot. -- Paul Ruben Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4219 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Re : May the Truth be Revealed xavier wrote: "......... but I hope I didn't cause trouble (a fight is not always welcome, and sometimes tiresome), and I hope also that people don't judge me as a trouble-maker." Who would judge you, Xavier!! As if.....!!! It may have brought out some interesting beliefs about judgment though. We are reminded that Jesus admonished us to 'judge not, lest we be judged'. The very same Jesus who cursed the fig tree, cast out the money changers and told the scribes and pharisees that they were hypocrites, fools and whitewashed tombs. The very same Jesus who told us to be 'as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves'. Maybe He was just having a bad hair day on those occasions. And maybe I don't understand the scriptures well enough but it seems to me that the 'judge not' scripture is often well and truly taken out of context. I wonder if Jesus ever wishes He had a dollar for every time that quote's been used during the last 2000 years to discourage people from using their discernment and intuition. The accumulated amount would be sufficient to fund the New World Order. I don't think I've ever met anyone who doesn't judge on a regular basis. It's a feature of this life of duality and helps us choose the Middle Way. But I'm more than happy to be corrected on this point. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sticks and stones may break my bones, but so would an 80 lb. carrot. -- Paul Ruben Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4220 From: "Heidi Walcutt" Subject: Re: The True Student JJ wrote: "The Question was: What qualities in the student show that he is ready?" Angela answered: "Being at a level lower than the teacher in the belief systems of the teacher, thereby establishing which is teacher and which is student, combined with the will to learn the belief systems of the teacher... and the choice to enter into a teacher/student contract." "I thought I'd make a few comments on this answer since this outlook on the student teacher relationship is quite popular in the new age community. That is many feel that if there is a student teacher relationship it means that the student must experience the humiliation of being at a "lower level." Since this seems disgusting to many they instead teach that there are no teachers and no leaders but all are teachers and leaders and all are students and followers. "Unfortunately, this is an illusionary concept that interrupts evolution as all illusion does. I have already written a major article on this" I know that i'm new to the list and all, but here are some of my thoughts on the issue of students and teachers. I'm reminded of something that was written a while back by fantasy/sci fi author Mercedes Lackey in one of the books dealing w/Tarma and Kethry, I believe it was "Oath Bound". A student is one seeking knowlege, seeking to improve their skills in a particular area... a teacher is one who has the knowledge to impart to the seeker... and the teacher can also learn something from the student, in which case the teacher then becomes the student and the student the teacher. We also teach by example, how we handle situations is always being observed (parents by children, friends by friends, enemies by enemies) how we work, live, love, expand our spirituality, is always being observed, and we are always observing the people around us... how many times have we found ourselves asking someone why they did something in a particular way, or how many times have we sat there saying "I would have never thought of that..."? All of these are teaching/learning experiences. again just an observation Heidi Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4221 From: Marylin Subject: Re: The True Student Heidi writes: "JJ wrote: "The Question was: What qualities in the student show that he is ready?" Hi all After reading the posts, I looked back at my own life to see how I became ready. I wasn't always ready so there was a starting point. The "beginning" in this life was that terrible "dark night" that caused me to make the decision to actively search for the Truth. During my varied areas of search I chose to keep the Bible as my guide, et al, it matched the bible, then it must be true. I am sure this does not resonate with everyone, but that's alright because it only mattered that it was right for me during those times. I have learned a great deal since then and at the same time, nothing at all. This is the paradox that keeps me so "hungry" and continually looking for the knowledge I seek. And sometimes that knowledge comes out of the "mouths of babes" literally. I believe I have been a true student all these years and I also believe that I have been a true teacher (raising my kids) most of the time wherein I gave instruction or opinion solely for the purpose of helping them to learn or to at least point them in the direction that they could find their own answers. Authority showed up big time when one of my kids was in physical danger. If that was incorrect behavior, then that's what it was. To do otherwise did not resonate with me and that's okay. I had an "argument" with our Baptist minister years back. I told him that I "knew" Jesus loved me. He insisted that I "believe" that Jesus loved me. I considered what he said and set it aside with no more thought because his "intention" was good. Discernment. Can anyone really know about another, if that other is ready or not? We are one, but we are also individual with individual free will. To try to read another's mind is an infringement on that person's free will. For another to expect us to be able to know what the other is thinking is ..........what? I haven't figured this one out yet. I offer that it is the responsibility of each individual to decide. Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4222 From: "David Curtis" Subject: Re: Re : The False Teacher (was: The True Student) xavier writes: "Yet Angela, where did you read in JJ's post that he claims to be absolute authority? The first post from the archive that he mentioned makes it perfectly clear. This is illusion of yours, at least it seems obvious to me. It's not only the first post, it's all of them, really:- )" I'm going to come to Angela defense, a little. JJ, I've read your past posts, and know you have no intention on being an absolute authority. In fact, you teach people that they should avoid any teacher that demands absolute authority. Angela mis-interpreted what you were saying. It's a human thing to do. I don't believe she is living in illusion, (in one respect.)however. She is wise not to follow a teacher that demands absolute authority. She entered this group at an advanced stage in our development, and mis- interpreted some things that were said. It's difficult to catch up. Even with Samu's excellent page of archives, there are nearly 300 posts to go through and contemplate. Angela was wise to question authority, she was just too quick to judge. No one's perfect. - Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4223 From: "Zia" Subject: May the Truth be Revealed Greetings to All, Attack/Defense has no place in any learning situation. Its opposition creates learning failure. Truth in and of itself is wholly invincible, needing simply to be shared. Recognition can then occur of what is already known but simply may have been forgotten. The 'teacher' simply re'minds' the 'student' of what is already known. ZIA ----- God I Am ----- Here I stand Take my hand We can fly Touch the sky. ----- Take me home to infinite unknown Guide my footsteps free of concepts. ----- In the darkness I am essence See my light Oh so bright. ----- I'm not alone God is home It is done We are one. ----- Zia 1988 Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4224 From: "Zia" Subject: May the Truth be Revealed Greetings to All, Struggles In Our Lives A man found a cocoon of an emperor moth. One day a small opening appeared, he sat and watched the moth for several hours as the moth struggled to force its body through that little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had got as far as it could and it could go no farther. Then the man decided to help the moth, so he took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The moth then emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings. The man continued to watch the moth because he expected that, at any moment, the wings would enlarge and expand to be able to support the body, which would contract in time. Neither happened! In fact, the little moth spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly. What the man in his kindness and haste did not understand was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the moth to get through the tiny opening were God's way of forcing fluid from the body of the moth into its wings so that it would be ready for flight once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon. Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our life. If God allowed us to go through our life without any obstacles, it would cripple us. We would not be as strong as what we could have been. And we could never fly. (I do not know the author). ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4225 From: "Zia" Subject: May the Truth be Revealed Greetings to All, Glenys I always enjoy your posts, and wish to add to your reflection on judgment. "It may have brought out some interesting beliefs about judgment though. We are reminded that Jesus admonished us to 'judge not, lest we be judged'. The very same Jesus who cursed the fig tree, cast out the money changers and told the scribes and pharisees that they were hypocrites, fools and whitewashed tombs. The very same Jesus who told us to be 'as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves'. Maybe He was just having a bad hair day on those occasions. And maybe I don't understand the scriptures well enough but it seems to me that the 'judge not' scripture is often well and truly taken out of context." Considering that Jesus at this time was being overshadowed by the Christ, and his own self still fully present, it may explain his 'reactions' that people have found difficult to understand considering the teachings of Christ. Just a thought. JJ spoke about this when considering the Return of Christ and whether the Christ would take over a body completely or produce his own, if I remember correctly. "I wonder if Jesus ever wishes He had a dollar for every time that quote's been used during the last 2000 years to discourage people from using their discernment and intuition. The accumulated amount would be sufficient to fund the New World Order." The Course in Miracles covers judgment to an incredible degree of understanding, and its resultant effects. I have been taught and have come to a profound understanding that to ascend is easy, to overcome judgment is extremely challenging. "I don't think I've ever met anyone who doesn't judge on a regular basis. It's a feature of this life of duality and helps us choose the Middle Way. int." I looked up discernment in my dictionary since in my mind I did not see a great difference between discernment and judgment. It gave me the following insights: At first the L discernere to separate, distinguish between, for me contained shades of judgment, because judgment implies separation and comparison. Then to detect with the eyes; to detect with senses other than vision; to recognize or identify as separate and distinct: discriminate. Then to come to know or recognize mentally (to see or understand the difference). For me Jesus taught us to go beyond our differences and look for our commonality, our oneness. To identify with that truth, we are one. You then draw to you according to what you identify with. Then discerning as an adjective was interesting from (1589) showing insight and understanding : discriminating. Then the coup de gras (I better check that spelling with my husband), discernment 1. the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure : skill in discerning, and 2. an act of discerning. Then SYN discernment, discrimination, perception, penetration, insight, acumen, mean a power to see what is not evident to the average mind. I wrote this because I felt I may have just used different words to allow me to keep judgment going. If I keep my eyes on God, my mind is in love, and joy is my expression. What comes to me must then be that, for that is my identity. When I identify with differences, I enter into separation, and all of these words become necessary to occur to being me back to what I am. In Jesus Christ Superstar, I loved the words in the song 'he's just a man, but what a man'. That presence of the Christ would be so profoundly inspiring to all, and yet he would also be at times just a man. We discriminate for or against, we judge for or against what we perceive. For me I'd rather keep my focus and energy on what I desire to create in my own life. Such a wonder verbalization of what is seen so instantaneously 'within'. Love to you Glenys, ZIA Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4226 From: Angela Kahealani Subject: Re: May the Truth be revealed JJ... Did God gift to all entities the right of free-will choice? Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4227 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Xavier, thank you for introducing Angela, while we don't agree with her remarks, she certainly brought forth some interesting messages from the group members. love and light to you, sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4228 From: Clive Culbertson Subject: Re: Apollonius Dear Friends, My post on Apollonius has certainly got some response. With hindsight, I presumed that the man from the Arcane School knew more about this than I did. Who knows, maybe he was wrong. As for the overshadowing thing, mmmmm, hadn't considered that. That's why I'm on this list, I keep getting so much to think about. Much Love, Clive. http://homepage.virgin.net/clive.culbertson or, http://freespace.virgin.net/clive.culbertson Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4229 From: Belle Subject: Re: Apollonius of Tyana Hi Beto, Some stuff from the Keys of Knowledge list... I don't really participate, but I did refer them to your web page.. I'm soooooooo tired. Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4230 From: Belle Subject: Re: Apollonius of Tyana Obviously I sent the previous message to the list by mistake.. It was meant to go to the fellow who wrote the Apollonius book.. Hoping he will join the list. Blushing, Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4231 From: John Kosior Subject: (OT)In Praise Of The List (OT) Greetings Folks, Well, after some contemplation, I've decided to share a little bit of what I've been noticing from all of the list members. For a bit of time I've been thinking that the way in which most of us present our ideas is by way of quoting this one or that. Or by statements like "I believe" and "I think, maybe". But what I have taken notice of lately, especially since all of our accounts of dark nights, is that the group as a whole seems to be shifting in it's presentation of thought to a more "I know" or "In my experience it has been" type of presentation. This, to me, is an indication that the group is maturing in a beautiful way. As I see it, the less we are relying on the work of others to answer questions or articulate ideas, the more we are reaching into ourselves and finding that we in fact have learned to operate from the intuition that we have gained from all of our searching. This is not to say that we no longer have need of the teachers or teachings of others, but it does indicate that we are speaking more and more from the soul level of the knowledge that Spirit is opening up to us. This in itself is a true indication that we are each coming into a greater freedom to serve humankind in our own lives. For if we can answer life's challenges, our own or those of another, by using the principles that we have gained knowledge of, we are much more likely to answer with words and ideas that are directly related to the situations that we find ourselves in. Though it's nice to be able to say to someone, "A. A. Bailey says....", it is much more effective if we can answer the need of another with true principles, presented in our own words. In this way, the message becomes personalized to the individual and to the specific situation that we see. I share these thoughts with you all to indicate where we have all benefited from this list as well as the rest of our searchings. Of course I give thanks to JJ for hanging in there with us, but as much I thank you all for sharing from your experience and knowledge. I have gained so much insight from you all, as well as a sense of family. The kind of family that I wouldn't mind sharing eternity with. :o) Thank you all, my friends! Truly Respectfully Yours, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4232 From: Brian Weis Subject: Ponderings (OT) I found this interesting..... ----- The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less. ----- We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, but less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, but less judgment; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, but less wellness. ----- We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; We've added years to life, not life to years. ----- We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; We've split the atom, but not our prejudice; ----- We have higher incomes, but lower morals; We've become long on quantity, but short on quality. ----- These are the times of tall men, and short character; steep profits, and shallow relationships. These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure, but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. These are days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier houses, but broken homes. It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stockroom; a time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to make a difference, or to just hit delete... Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4233 From: "Jill" Subject: Re: May the Truth be Revealed Beautiful Zia/God, May your light continue to shine so bright and you continue to give/share the universal wisdom and love. I love when the feeling from God comes out in Poetry. :o] Thank you for giving/sharing your lovely poem. love, Jill I am becoming all I decide to become - JJ Dewey. The Immortal http://www.freeread.com When one focuses on the outcome one misses the journey along the way Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-03/4234 From: Rick Audette Subject: Virtue or vice When a virtue is carried to extremes and to the exclusion of other virtues, it can become a vice. I think, when we are told to judge not, this is talking about the exercising of discrimination, without it's complimentary virtues, such as precision, efficiency, tolerance, forbearance, etc. I currently work as a mechanical designer of fixtures that test circuit boards. My designs are used to bring probes into temporary contact with the boards, to test them electrically. There are a number of ways to do this, including screws, levers, pneumatics, vacuum and electric solenoids. None of these are any better or worse than the others, yet I must pick what is best for the job. This is done by thinking about how much space I have to work in, how much the client wants to spend and what energy sources can be used at his plant. Likewise, in the pursuit of knowledge of truth, there are an infinite number of experiences, or paths, that will lead you there. They are neither good or bad, on their own. However, the choice of one path, over another could make a difference of years or life times in how long it takes to get to a given level. On an infinite scale, anything short of perfection is still an infinite distance from perfection. Therefore, the "Good Life" is not a measure of which rung of the ladder you are on, but rather, how fast you are climbing, in the upward direction. If you have mastered certain skills, then you are able to pass judgments regarding those of lesser skill. As an example, as a skilled woodcarver, I might allow a young child to use sharp knives, as long as I kept a close eye on them and they followed some rules that I made before starting. But, I would never give a knife to one so inexperienced, without staying on to supervise. They just don't have a clue as to how a blade travels through wood and flesh. If they are very young, they do not even know which side of the blade is sharp. The same might be said of "higher" skills. Channeling might be a useful tool, in the hands of a Master, but for the rest of us, who have yet to reach a level of even 1% of what it takes to be a Master, the odds are we are like children playing with a loaded gun. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4235 From: "Jennifer Hampson" Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-05-03 of The Keys of Knowledge List Dear Angela Your letter implies that I lack the ability to discern a true teacher from one who is not. After reading your letter to JJ I am of the opinion that I have more skill in this area than you do! Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4236 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: May the Truth be Revealed (Judgment) Zia wrote: "Considering that Jesus at this time was being overshadowed by the Christ, and his own self still fully present, it may explain his 'reactions' that people have found difficult to understand considering the teachings of Christ. Just a thought. JJ spoke about this when considering the Return of Christ and whether the Christ would take over a body completely or produce his own, if I remember correctly." Thank you for taking the time to comment on my musings, Zia; I very much appreciate it. You may very well be right about Jesus. The problem that I personally would have with that particular scenario is that if I liked a saying or action of Jesus, I would say it was the Christ talking through Him and if I didn't, I'd say it was the man. I would have to make a judgment :-) Maybe it's the word 'judgment' that people get hung up on because it implies a verdict or censure of some sort. My dictionary says it's 'the faculty of being able to make critical distinctions and achieve a balanced viewpoint'. Who wouldn't want to do that? If we take that definition, most people wouldn't mind being classed as judgmental, although we would then express it as a person having 'good judgment'. I have read the ACIM commentary on judgment for both teachers and students and don't find it particularly helpful in a practical sense. Yes, I agree that we are all one. I agree that judgment is an illusion that causes separation etc but where does that get me in this 3D world of polarity and duality? Nowhere much. From my observation, those concepts, taken on board without discrimination, have created a generation of spiritual seekers who seem to have a namby pamby Pollyanna-ish approach to spirituality. They remind us that a rapist, to use a more extreme example, is just a reflection of ourselves so that when we criticise him we criticise (judge) ourselves. So in our haste to not be seen as being judgmental, we gloss over the abhorrence of his action or fail to discriminate between the act and the person undertaking it. If more people had judged the early activities of Hitler and taken the appropriate action against him, we may have avoided WW2. The compromise for me is to judge (discriminate) the action rather than the person carrying out the action. So if I perceive that a person has unfairly criticised JJ, for example, I feel perfectly entitled to say that I think the behaviour is unacceptable to me. I realise that puts me in danger of being judged as being judgmental (doesn't it get so silly) but I would describe it as having a strong sense of justice and fair play. It's all a matter of perception. I am acutely aware of the old saying that 'Evil flourishes when (or is it 'because') good people do nothing'. Now days it seems good people are content to send the Light to a situation, ask themselves or their friends why people just can't love each other and retreat into an illusionary fug. To me that is not the best we can be doing. If the Oneness Principle means that I'm expected to stay mute in the face of injustice and wrong, then it looks like I'll be sitting in a corner by myself at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. Unless, of course, Samu would like to join me again :-) I know my views aren't 'spiritually correct' or trendy in today's environment but like many on this list, I'm not very skilled in going with the flow. On the other hand, I hold on to my 'beliefs' very loosely these days so I'm happy to have my mind changed. Certainly, things would be a lot easier for me if it was. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To live is so startling it leaves little room for anything else. - Emily Dickinson Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4237 From: J J Dewey Subject: Judgment Good comment on judgment Glenys. The scripture that says "judge not" is the most misunderstood scripture in the bible. Let us quote it and see what Jesus was really saying: Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. Matt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Matt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Matt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Here Jesus is NOT telling us that we cannot judge, but is instead warning us of the law of karma if we judge harshly or incorrectly for he says: "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Therefore if you judge someone with minor faults to have major faults, this harsh judgment will come back to haunt you. In this scripture He gives the key for righteous judgment: "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." In other words, concentrate on eliminating your own faults first and then you will be able to make a correct judgment as to how to help your brother (or sister). Here is another scripture illustrating even more clearly that Jesus was talking about the law of karma: Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Here He is simply saying that if we judge rashly, condemning our brother and not forgiving him, we will reap what we have sowed and find condemnation coming back to us. Jesus gives us a guide in using the power of judgment correctly: John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." As we seek to become one with God and follow His will then the beam clogging our vision will be removed and our judgment will also be just. Here is an interesting scripture where Jesus actually commands us to judge: John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Judge with clarity, wisdom and love and when you are then judged, as you have judged, all will be well with you, but if you do not judge righteously then the law of karma will bring painful judgments to your door. Finally Jesus tells his twelve apostles that they shall be judges: Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. When you think of it, it is silly to say we should not judge. As soon as you wake in the morning you make a judgment as to whether to get up or sleep a while longer. When you get in the shower you make a judgment as to when you are clean enough to get out. When you eat breakfast you make a judgment as to what you will have and how much. When you drive to work and are a little late you make a judgment as to whether you are going to speed or not. Finally you get to work and meet the new guy who was just hired. He wants to be your best friend and now you make a judgment on whether or not you want this type of personality in your life. Then your boss wants you to dig up some dirt on the boss above him. You judge your boss to be wrong and refuse. We could go on and on here but hopefully we get the point. Judgments are not wrong. Only wrong judgments are wrong. Every quality and ability has a positive and negative side to it. When the Bible and A Course in Miracles talks about judgment in a negative light, they are talking about negative, limiting judgments. Example: The kid tells the parent he is going to get straight A's next time around and the parent says: "You've failed miserably in the past, so you're going to fail again." This is a cruel and limiting judgment. A positive judgment would be something like this: "I have seen you make progress in the past when you make an effort and I do believe you have it in you to dramatically improve your grades." Her the parent made a judgment on the positive possibilities of the child and in this case judgment is a good thing. I hope to return to the Gathering Principle in my next postings. Question: How did the gathering principle lift the consciousness of humanity so we switched over from being ruled by the power of kings to the power of the people through democratic principles? How was the Gathering Principle responsible for the Constitution of the United States? Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4238 From: J J Dewey Subject: Free Will Angela Asks: "Did God gift to all entities the right of free-will choice? " All lives capable of movement within the worlds of form have free will within their ring-pass-not or the limits of their consciousness. We have the right of free will within this periphery as long as we do not infringe on the rights of others or hinder their progression on the Path. By the way Angela, I would like to welcome you to the list. Feel free to challenge me all you want, but please represent my beliefs correctly. And to Xavier. Yes, invite all who are willing to the list. If it is not for them they will move on. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4239 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Judgment J J Dewey wrote: "Question: How did the gathering principle lift the consciousness of humanity so we switched over from being ruled by the power of kings to the power of the people through democratic principles? How was the Gathering Principle responsible for the Constitution of the United States?" Good Morning All, Well, I don't want to sound ethnocentric here, but being from the US, I have a better grasp on US democracy than any other form that may exist elsewhere. So coming from this perspective, I can recall that many of the first settlers that came to the "new world" were said to be escaping the persecutions which they believed existed in their respective homelands. Upon arriving in this new land, these settlers were faced with conditions and circumstances that could be considered harsh. In response to the challenges that they faced, these people needed to take certain actions to insure their survival in the settlements. They began to gather together, instituting the first "town meetings" which would become one of the hallmarks of early America. Then in these town meetings, the people began to discuss what ways they might survive the harsh months of winter, and how to make the most efficient use of the resources they had. When they had settled upon the best course of action for all, they set up the rules which would govern their actions and their individual responsibilities. As time passed, this idea of group meetings became the established norm for the colonies. The way that this raised the consciousness of these people was that instead of being born into a monarchy, where their role and will was governed by an outside authority (the king), they were compelled to come together and make decisions on how to govern themselves in order to survive. They had to DECIDE for themselves. In order to do this, they had to place their ATTENTION on the circumstances at hand. And it was this attention followed by decision by all concerned individuals which led to the raising of consciousness and later to the declaration of independence from the foreign, kingly rule they had left behind. Having achieved independence from foreign rule, it was decided that a new form of government should be instituted for the new independent states. So each of the provinces sent a delegation to what is called the constitutional convention, in order to each represent the desires and needs of their respective states. It was in this gathering of minds that the constitution of the US was drafted. Incidentally, it can be argued that the form of government that was instituted was not a democracy, but a republic, which is a representative government, based on the rule of law. But those laws were to be enacted only by the will of the people as carried out by the representatives of those people. IMO, the form of government that we now possess in the US is what I call a "representative monarchy". Due to the lack of direct attention and involvement of the people being represented, as well as a lack of individual responsibility for directing that attention, we have slipped into a position once again that the people must begin to come together, like the early settlers of this country, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, and insure the domestic tranquility which has been sacrificed on the alter of convenience and the pursuit of pleasure. Oh well, another long winded answer. As always, I look forward to reading all the thoughts from you folks. In Long Winded Thoughtfulness, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4240 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Free Will J J Dewey writes: "And to Xavier. Yes, invite all who are willing to the list. If it is not for them they will move on." Thanks :-) And if it is for them, they will share and blossom with us. And even if they move on after having set up a fight here, they may share and spread good seeds by the way. ;-) Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4241 From: Belle Subject: Fwd: Re: |LuLuZoo| Re: Apollonius of Tyana "Isabelle, Bonnie, et al - If you see someone at some list mention Alice A. Bailey in connection with Apollonius of Tyana again, please ask the person which one of Alice A. Bailey's books discuss Apollonius. Thanks. Beto" Just passing this on folks.. Any help here?? Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4242 From: J J Dewey Subject: AAB on Apollonius Belle asks: "If you see someone at some list mention Alice A. Bailey in connection with Apollonius of Tyana again, please ask the person which one of Alice A. Bailey's books discuss Apollonius." There is only one mention in the Bailey books of Apollonius of Tyana. Here it is: The Master Jesus, Who is the focal point of the energy that flows through the various Christian churches, is at present living in a Syrian body, and dwells in a certain part of the Holy Land. He travels much and passes considerable time in various parts of Europe. He works specially with masses more than with individuals, though He has gathered around Him quite a numerous body of pupils. He is upon the sixth Ray of Devotion, or Abstract Idealism, and His pupils are frequently distinguished by that fanaticism and devotion which manifested in earlier Christian times amongst the martyrs. He Himself is rather a martial figure, a disciplinarian, and a man of iron rule and will. He is tall and spare with rather a long thin face, black hair, pale complexion and piercing blue eyes. His work at this time is exceedingly responsible, for to Him is given the problem of steering the thought of the occident out of its present state of unrest into the peaceful waters of certitude and knowledge, and of preparing the way in Europe and America for the eventual coming of the World Teacher. He is well known in the Bible history, coming before us first as Joshua the Son of Nun, appearing again in the time of Ezra as Jeshua, taking the third initiation, as related in the book of Zechariah, as Joshua, and in the Gospel story He is known for two great sacrifices, that in which He handed over His body for the use of the Christ, and for the great renunciation which is the characteristic of the fourth initiation. As Appollonius of Tyana, He took the fifth initiation and became a Master of the Wisdom. From that time on He has stayed and worked with the Christian Church, fostering the germ of true spiritual life which is to be found amongst members of all sects and divisions, and neutralizing as far as possible the mistakes and errors of the churchmen and the theologians. He is distinctively the Great Leader, the General, and the wise Executive, and in Church matters He co-operates closely with the Christ, thus saving Him much and acting as His intermediary wherever possible. No one so wisely knows as He the problems of the West, no one is so closely in touch with the people who stand for all that is best in Christian teachings, and no one is so well aware of the need of the present moment. Certain great prelates of the Anglican and Catholic Churches are wise agents of His. Initiation Human ans Solar Pages 56-57 Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4243 From: John Kosior Subject: (Way OT)Requesting Help Howdy Folks, As most of you know, I've recently taken up a journey. Leaving my home in So. Fla, I've decided to make certain stops along the way. So I'm here at my sister's house visiting and sharing from whatever I have for the enlightenment of my family members. Having been removed from my family for many years, I can easily see the differences between me and those of my family who still live in many of the illusions that I have overcome. This being the case, I am also learning about the effects that others can have on us, whether positive or negative. So finding myself in the company of five who have not overcome, or even acknowledged the illusions of this life, I'm finding it quite challenging to maintain the highest level of clarity that I have possessed in the past. It kind of makes me realize why Jesus was reported as often going off to be alone in between his public appearances. Perhaps this was to maintain his connection with the Father and not be sucked into the illusions of the masses. This being said, it occurred to me that I have another family to which I might ask for help. You, my spiritual family, I consider to be beyond many of the illusions that I am dealing with in my present circumstances. So if any of you feel inclined to help, would you consider directing some of your energy while in meditation, or while singing the song to this location? I am only one with vision in a house of five in illusion and I'm finding it difficult to be at my best in this situation. Just as one point of interest, my sister was a member of the army reserves during the gulf war. She served at that time in Saudi Arabia and has since been inflicted with what is being called the "gulf war syndrome". Of course the US government has decided that this malady does not exist, and as such they are doing everything they can to deny benefits to the service men and women who have legitimate medical problems related to that condition. Today, the Veterans Administration notified my sister that she would be denied benefits that she has been asking for two years, based on their claim that they don't have the paperwork that my sister submitted in due time two years ago. I can actually see the effect that this is having on her. It seems to me that the "beast" is alive and well and out to damage and destroy whomever it can, and quite frankly, it's pissing me off. I am doing all that I know to thwart the ill effects of this, but I sure could use your support. I'm not asking you to post any response to the list, but just to remember me in your prayers. I know that if even one of you will decide to give this your attention, that would make two of us and that would make three as the Christ said that if two of us would agree as touching anything, it would be done by the Father. Thanks for reading this and know that if you have specific needs, I will always avail myself to lending my support to you. All Blessings, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4244 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: (Way OT)Requesting Help You have it John. Much love to you and your family. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4245 From: Belle Subject: Re: AAB on Apollonius Belle asks: "If you see someone at some list mention Alice A. Bailey in connection with Apollonius of Tyana again, please ask the person which one of Alice A. Bailey's books discuss Apollonius. There is only one mention in the Bailey books of Apollonius of Tyana. Here it is:" Thanks for that, JJ... I have passed it on to Beto and have invited him to join the list. I'm not sure he has read your book yet, but he has many interests in common with the discussions here.. We'll see what happens.. Regards, Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4246 From: "Jill Subject: Re: (Way OT)Requesting Help Hello John, It is Jill here. I know that you are not asking anyone to post anything to the list however I feel moved to do so. I can understand how difficult it is for you to keep your connection with God alive and live a spiritual existence while others are falling for illusions living a me based experience in a non spiritual life that they have chosen for themselves. How different is it to live in this world which is nothing more than a huge home for our bodies and try not to be affected by others who have taken to heart a non spiritual way of life, than to live in a smaller house surrounded by this. I think we are always surrounded by this problem and the answer could be as you said that Jesus sought times of solitude. Meditation could be an answer, as could choosing to be an an observer/witness while focusing your loving attention on God/love flowing within. It may appear to be hard to get through this and yes this could simply be another illusion, I think with God in our corner nothing is impossible. Maybe focusing on your process/experience on this time instead of the outcomecould be another solution. Only you and God will know in the end. :o] As for your sister with the Defence Dept. I had a similar experience with the defence dept where I live. I was injured because of several variables and even though they agreed they were at fault they would not pay me compensation or rehabilitate me because they did not believe I was going to be affected permanently. They did not accept my internal afflictions as a reason to compensate and I was considered not well enough to be rehabilitated and so at the time I dropped going for compensation because the stress of it was detrimental to my health. So I let it go for 6 years. Then my inner wisdom said to me now is the time to seek the compensation. I rang them myself and told them that I wanted compensation, they said I would have to fill in more forms. I said enough and contacted a lawyer and asked them if I had a case. They believed I did and they then told me if they could not get the compensation for me that I would owe them nothing. So I let them handle it and within months I received the compensation minus the slice they took out for past and future pension payments. In the end it was enough, they accepted the blame and irresponsibility and everything turned out great. Thinking of you at this time. Love, Jill Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4247 From: Marylin Subject: Re: (Way OT)Requesting Help "I know that if even one of you will decide to give this your attention, that would make two of us and that would make three as the Christ said that if two of us would agree as touching anything, it would be done by the Father." "Thanks for reading this and know that if you have specific needs, I will always avail myself to lending my support to you. All Blessings, John" Dear Heavenly Father, in thy divine wisdom and according to thine own will, keep John and all of his family safe and free from ALL harm. Keep them in thy protective arms and help them to find the way. So be it. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4248 From: Belle Subject: Immortality Hi Folks, Just out of curiosity.. How many people on this list believe in immortality?? I'm not sure when I started thinking about it, but at some point I realized that every time I heard stories of immortals walking the earth, it just felt right.. I also always believed that we all have the ability to renew our physical selves at will.. Instantaneously... However, just now I seem to have "forgotten" how to do it. I know it has something to do with feeling centered and at peace, but I'm just not able to "get there" at the moment.. Perhaps it's my karma for "judging" others who weren't able to even believe it was possible in the past... Maybe I need to not be able to heal myself for a while so that I can relearn how to due it in order to be able to explain it better in the future... Anyway... I'm still interested in knowing how many of you believe in immortality.. Grins, Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4249 From: Belle Subject: Re: (Way OT)Requesting Help "Howdy Folks, As most of you know, I've recently taken up a journey. Leaving my home in So. Fla, I've decided to make certain stops along the way. So I'm here at my sister's house visiting and sharing from whatever I have for the enlightenment of my family members. Having been removed from my family for many years, I can easily see the differences between me and those of my family who still live in many of the illusions that I have overcome." Hi John, I can certainly relate to your situation.. After being away from my folks and this area for almost thirty years, I returned to a situation where I feel that I don't even speak the same language. One's whole being changes so much when you are following your own path away from people who keep you from changing by having expectations of just who you are.. I also feel that our birth families represent karmic ties which must be worked out, but that our "chosen" families may be more important for our growth and development. I had a wonderful childhood and left to travel the world at about age 25.. Being an Aries might have helped me forge on and not look back.. But now that I am needed by my mother who provided me with that wonderful childhood I can see how much I have changed and not in ways she would have liked.. Soooo here I am living out my blood family karma and after almost two years things are finally becoming easier... It was just awful for a long time! My mother is accepting who I am and even learning a thing or two from me. I think she is getting over her disappointment that I did not use my education to become rich and powerful in the material world as she thought I would do. I think she is starting to even like me again.. :-) Anyway... hang in there.. And get moving again as soon as possible unless you are really needed there.. I really feeel the time has come for us t join our chosen families and work in communities of people of like mind.. (And this does not mean that I don't also believe that we are all one.. I do believe that.. I just don't feel we have to live with those who cause us not to feel good.) Meanwhile, you are in my thoughts. You are a valuable member of this "family" and I'm glad you can come here to be with those of like mind even if it is just in the cyber world.. Loads of love coming your way, Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4250 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Immortality Hi Belle, I am making an assumption that you are speaking of physical immortality, I believe, of course, in the immortality of the soul, but also of the physical body. Every cell in our body regenerates, I believe, every 7 years, so we are made anew completely every 7 years, of course, if we have manifested a disease in our physical that dis-ease is re-manifested, so until we re- member the knowledge of perfect health in each cell we keep manifesting that dis-ease-ment, at least that is what I was taught and it resonated with me but some knowingness tells me this illness manifestation is not how we were suppose to be. Sure wish I had better thinking processes and words today. much love and light to everyone, Sharon Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4251 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Fwd: Tornado alley Hello folks! I'm asking for your prayers for the people in Haysville Kansas where the tornado hit last night. That's where I live! Well, let's say, my house didn't move, but the town moved, so I'm not sure I live in Haysville anymore.....sounds like "oh, toto, we're not in Kansas anymore". There a lot of devestation, houses and building reduced to rubble, animals wandering around in a daze, and people in shelters because their home was reduced to tooth picks. This one TV reporter said he was in his car when it got hit, and he crouched down under the dash board, the windows flew out, then the car spun around and around, but he wasn't hurt! The Governor came today and declared the area a Disaster. The bank got hit, and checks were lining yards to the north (hahaha), the post office was hit, and many businesses. Of course, Haysville is a very small town on the southern outskirts of Wichita, and we had no power last night, and the phones are still working off and on, so of all the people who lost homes, and animals who lost homes, I'm asking for your consoling prayers. Thank you. Mary Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4252 From: Beto Damis Subject: Re: Immortality Bonsoir, Isabelle, ma petite oie blanche - a va bien? There is "immortality," and there is "immortality." Immortality 1 : This is what is generally thought of by religious groups as "eternal life in Heaven." Ultimately, though, "God" Himself will eventually die, and the Universe will be reborn; but before He goes, all of those in "Heaven" and "Hell" will disappear first. Nevertheless, this is the "vernacular" of the masses, in general, n'est-ce pas? Immortal souls experiencing reincarnation time and again, as they try to gain "enlightenment" and hopefully in the process learn the ability to live life without the dread/guilt of "eternal reward" or "eternal damnation" in "Heaven" or "Hell." Nirvana, etc. Immortality 2 : This is the immortality of the "gods from outer space." Assuming, as some do, that Homo sapiens is a creation of "Custodial Gods" from another planet, such as the mysterious Planet Nibiru, then our measly lifetimes are nothing compared to those "Superior Beings." In the case of the Planet Nibiru, these "Gods" think of 3,600 of our years as ONE year for them. A day for them lasts for 10 of our years. They can live for 100,000 Earth Years, as long as they sip that magical elixir of "immortality," denied to "savage-man" in the "Garden of Eden." Undoubtedly, there are Higher Gods than those, who live for immensely lengthy periods of time, Earth-wise. We ourselves gargle with Listerine and kill off hundreds of thousands of invisible bacteria in our mouths and throats, spit them down the drain and never give them a single thought. The lowly mayfly lives for only 24 hours. It lives merely to mate and perhaps, if it has the time, to eat something. Yet, 24 hours of our lives are the WHOLE LIFETIME of the mayfly - and the mayfly never even realizes it. As above, so below. Thus, we humans would ultimately seem to a certain high level of the "Gods" to be as insignificant to them as the bacteria in our mouths or the mayflies by the lightpole outside the window seem to us. SO! - which "immortality" are you thinking about? Au Revoir, Beto Damis "Grins, Belle" "Ye walked according to the =C6on of this world, according to the Archon that has the domination of the air. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the dominations, the powers, the lords of darkness, the mischievousness of spirits in the Upper Regions. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4253 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Immortality Richard/Sharon wrote: "Hi Belle, I am making an assumption that you are speaking of physical immortality, I believe, of course, in the immortality of the soul, but also of the physical body." Hey There Folks, This is a thought I have kept since I was just a little kid. Not a thing I suspect, but a thing I am quite sure of. So the question has come, If immortality is a possibility, then why do people die? I'm not asking why do people get diseases, but what in creation would cause one to choose the option of death and not life. As a type and a model, I go back to the creation story in Genesis. Adam and Eve, together in the garden. They are created in the likeness of God. And the only mention of death is in a warning that on the day they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will surly die. When I consider this, it occurs to me that along with the knowledge of good and evil, must have come judgment, the discernment of good and evil. With this new "ability" to judge, it stands to reason that they might have begun to judge those things in themselves that they considered evil. And in their lack of wisdom, they "knew" that good must destroy evil. And in this, the process of cellular degeneration began. They may have actually "devoured" themselves and each other. So, what about now? Well, it still stands the test that to live immortally in the body, we would have to attach ourselves to a principle which is higher than the knowledge of good and evil, which brought with it judgment. In the new testament, you can read that the law of life has swallowed the law of sin (evil) and death (judgment). So those who are still experiencing death on this physical plane must be those, perhaps for reason of their ring pass not, have yet to receive the higher principle of life which has swallowed death. In short, people are still judging themselves to death. Something to chew on, anyway. :o) And I'll slip a little thank you in here to those who responded, both on and off list, to my earlier request. I have actually "felt" your presence today, and it has strengthened me greatly. Warm Brotherly Hugs, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4254 From: Beto Damis Subject: Re: Immortality SAY WHAT? Did everyone else see all this =3D-=3D-=3D, etc? I f so, this list sure doesn't have a very good font translation base. :-( "Ye walked according to the =C6on of this world, according to the Archon that has the domination of the air. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the dominations, the powers, the lords of darkness, the mischievousness of spirits in the Upper Regions." Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4255 From: Terrance R Brennan Subject: Re: The Gathering of Lights JJ writes: "The gathering concept is the basic principle behind all evolution, physical and spiritual. Why do you suppose this is so?" The thought that enters my consciousness when I read the above statement is "There's safety in numbers." Apparently there's also evolution in numbers. Here's what I know about what I think JJ's going to be talking about. Remember that he gave me this information before this group existed when I was still in the experimental stage of Internet Learning of Principles. Most everything he's taught to the group since then I've received the same time as everyone else. Our bodies are alive. The systems of organs that make up our body are also alive, as are the organs that make up the systems, as are the tissues that make up the organs, as are the cells that make up the tissues. If all these living things working together can become a human body, it stands to reason we can go smaller and still find life. Life can only arise from life. In other words, you can only get something from something, not something from nothing. With that said, the molecules that make up the cells must also be alive, and the atoms that make up the molecules must be alive too, and so the protons and electrons that make up atoms, and so on down. JJ has used the term "tiny lives" several times when referring to atoms. Hopefully this will make more sense now. Protons and electrons are just protons and electrons, but when combined in a certain number and configuration create something more than what they could imagine they'd become as individuals. The individual lives also are able to share the consciousness of the higher life form they've created. Example: 1 electron + 1 proton = Hydrogen; something unlike either when they were just subatomic particles. Example: 2 Hydrogens + 1 Oxygen = Water!; a substance with properties unlike either when they were individual molecules. Example: Molecules gather to create cells, cells gather to create tissues, tissues gather to create organs, organs gather to create systems of organs, and finally systems of organs gather to create a human body (or animal body or whatever). This naturally begs the question: "If the principle were taken from the microcosm and applied to the macrocosm, what would a group of humans become if they gathered together? The answer is so cool! Hurry up JJ! I'm bursting at the seams to finally talk about this stuff. I've waited for what felt like a long time. So of course I jumped at the chance to share what you taught me regarding this stuff. The gathering principle gets me so excited every time I think about it. Rob Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4256 From: Belle Subject: Re: Immortality Beto Damis wrote: "Thus, we humans would ultimately seem to a certain high level of the "Gods" to be as insignificant to them as the bacteria in our mouths or the mayflies by the lightpole outside the window seem to us. SO! - which "immortality" are you thinking about? Au Revoir, Beto Damis" Hmmmm.. wasn't expecting all that.. But why not? I was just thinking of us mere mortals... Living with someone who has been "dying" for almost two years yet responding to medication, vitamins, change in thought patterns, etc makes the possibilities so obvious.. If my mother had a real desire to live I'm sure she could regenerate amazingly and completely.. As it is she has confounded her nurses, doctors, and those who have followed her condition in the last few years... She gets so close to death and then in a matter of days starts on the road to at least partial recovery... Then she starts the cycle all over again.. She decided years ago that she would not live longer than her mid 80's and yet something is keeping her here... Now if a healthy person with a will to live could use these powers of regeneration, there would be no limit to the length of time they could live in one body as I see it. Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4257 From: Belle Subject: Re: The Gathering of Lights Rob writes excitedly: "This naturally begs the question: "If the principle were taken from the microcosm and applied to the macrocosm, what would a group of humans become if they gathered together? The answer is so cool! Hurry up JJ! I'm bursting at the seams to finally talk about this stuff. I've waited for what felt like a long time. So of course I jumped at the chance to share what you taught me regarding this stuff. The gathering principle gets me so excited every time I think about it." Rob, I'm so glad to see you getting so excited about the upcoming discussions.. This is a rather simplistic example perhaps, but life changing for me anyway... Being one of the people who found herself at Woodstock in 1969 I was blessed to experience what it was like for a huge number of like minded people to coexist peacefully under what would have been considered uncomfortable conditions by most... There was a tremendous amount of sharing and seeing the need to help others brought out the best in lots of folks. What happened was that instead of it being a disaster, it was an instant city of humanity helping humanity... And TONS of fun! People were doing things they never imagined they could or would do. The energy of the group mind was amazing. I think the fact that it was a musical event was important also.. Of course I realize you're talking about something much bigger here, but your post just brought this to mind... Thanks for the memories... :-) Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4258 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Fwd: Re: |LuLuZoo| Re: Apollonius of Tyana Belle writes: "From: Beto Damis "Isabelle, Bonnie, et al - If you see someone at some list mention Alice A. Bailey in connection with Apollonius of Tyana again, please ask the person which one of Alice A. Bailey's books discuss Apollonius. Thanks. Beto" you can search Bailey's and Blavatsky's books, and others' too, at" http://www.netnews.org/ I just tried "Appollonius", and it gave the passage that JJ quoted in answer to this Belle's message. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4259 From: Belle Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: |LuLuZoo| Re: Apollonius of Tyana "you can search Bailey's and Blavatsky's books, and others' too, at: http://www.netnews.org/ I just tried "Appollonius", and it gave the passage that JJ quoted in answer to this Belle's message." Thanks Xavier... Very useful site..Glad to bookmark it for future reference.. Belle Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4260 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Immortality Belle writes: "Just out of curiosity.. How many people on this list believe in immortality?? (...) "I also always believed that we all have the ability to renew our physical selves at will.. Instantaneously... However, just now I seem to have "forgotten" how to do it. I know it has something to do with feeling centered and at peace, but I'm just not able to "get there" at the moment." It's not only a remembrance. There is knowledge, training, evolution involved. "Perhaps it's my karma for "judging" others who weren't able to even believe it was possible in the past..." So, it is not only a thing to remember, and so you don't need to explain the fact that you are not immortal, by a karma of judging others. (Well I sound very affirmative, but I know nothing for a fact, I'm just answering with my feeling) "Maybe I need to not be able to heal myself for a while so that I can relearn how to due it in order to be able to explain it better in the future..." "Anyway... I'm still interested in knowing how many of you believe in immortality.. Grins, Belle" Life, death, rebirth, Life it is. Life is everything included, whatever way it goes. True life force is construction, destruction, generation, etc... It is not only building. It is the force that draws things to completion, and uses them as forms, vehicles. One who can live in the expanded consciousness of his Spirit, and master his bodies completely, may be able to have them last eternally, anyway it sounds true to me. Once I know it's a matter of evolution, that I someway can do, sometime, an ability of my Spirit, well, I can look at my everyday life, love my personality, try to better my expression in this life, and focus on the opening and bettering of my vehicles. There ain't no more question as to if it is possible, why I can or seemingly can't do it. I mean that once I answered this spiritual question in a temporarily satisfactory way, I can turn my attention towards the matter I am inhabiting, and bettering as a means of expression and work. (Dunno why I feel like saying all that, but it probably is useful, for me or for others) Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4261 From: "Zia" Subject: Judgment Greetings to All, Love to you John K., to Richard with Sharon/Richard, and to all those in 'that' tornado. My heart is with you. \*/ Ahhh I have so enjoyed the posts on Judgment. I loved Jesus' words on judgment, have all my life and carried such a desire to see if I could cease it. At the simplest level what would be the 'worst' that could happen to me if I did not judge anything, could I actually survive? I found it very interesting that JJ when you are having a shower you decide whether you are clean or not?? I laughed and laughed, mainly because I discovered we do so many things on auto-pilot, there is not even judgment going on. I cannot recall ever having a shower in which I was making a judgment on clean or dirty!! We just go through the motions. When the mind is still enough that judgment is not every other thought, and then some!! then I take a shower in a very different way. Stopping judgments also seems to break habits, like how you put your shampoo on your head. When my mind is completely free of judgment, I am so conscious rather than in habit mode, that I pour the shampoo on my head straight out of the bottle, rather than in my hand first. (This is just an example of course). I found that for me when I first thought about ceasing judgment I saw all the justifications for keeping it, and IT certainly creates a fog in one's mind, not the lack of it. I remember long ago hearing that love could move mountains. I used to think love was a mamby pamby state of fantasy...yet it is not. And neither is freedom from judgment. What I discovered and I worked long and hard to reach this, was that without judgment, and the automatic thoughts that are looking, comparing, judging etc., the mind becomes so free, it is now, so aware, so in love, so into beauty as that is how every thing seems to appear. One day I finally stated that for that one day I would cease judgment. And it occurred. To describe this event from the past will bring in all the words and variations of judgment. I can only say that when there is no judgment of this world around us, there is such a clear mind to be so fully present, to be the love it is, to be in happiness because that is what that mind is. I remember putting the milk in the cupboard, and just laughing. I found I was full of laughter. What I also found was that judgment has a reaction that always follows. Angela showed us this, and yes we all do it. But imagine not doing it. Even to look at a flower and think it so beautiful, the beautiful is a judgment. Yet just to be one with that flower is beyond words. I cannot be one with anything while my thinking mind is in judgment. That was my discovery. I discovered for me that 'emotion is the reaction to judgment by the thinking mind'. For every judgment I create an emotional reaction. Observed this is so true. We think the little everyday judgments, are nothing, but our mind is caught up in them. I believe if Jesus had made one judgment while on that cross, he would have crucified his body completely, and not resurrected. It is possible to cease judgment. It comes through statement of fact for me. The light is green, go. Simple thought but no judgment is part of my decision, it is a statement of fact, I think by JJ's definition even. Judgment is made for or against something. A green light is good, I can go brings in judgment. This may be very boring to some, but it is profound when the mind reaches for that state. I feel it is so difficult where you are John K. because the minds around you are on automatic and are just reproducing judging thoughts as a means to getting their body around. You are focused and aware and think different thoughts, and the judgment cycle is so heavy. I have discovered an amazing cycle to judgment. It plays out everytime for every person using judgment. It is predictable. Some people play on it unconsciously because they know it works, for their desired outcome. The chemical reactions of judgments in the body are astonishing. Through the repetition of a simple judgment we can create cancers in our body, done for long enough. Wow, that makes it worth looking at. The mind that does not judge is not mamby pamby, it is powerful, clear and focused. It is also one with its soul, so soul confirmation seems like being on auto-pilot. I feel so strongly that if we ceased judgment we could hear our soul loud and clear, and would not need discernment, discrimination, and all the definitions. Our spirit would guide us so supremely. In everything. Perhaps you think I am naive, I AM. So what is the value of judgment...it always has to do with reflection, comparison, evaluation, and is of past events, or using 'judgment' from the past to affect a future decision. I simply ask is it really necessary, because most minds engage almost totally in it. One last thing, when a child is born, most parents see this newborn as so perfect. The child grows and grows, and then one day does something, and the parents for the first time see that child as not perfect, and react, and the child is in shock!! Do you remember when you felt you lost your parent's love for the first time? You were not perfect, you had done something wrong....and then the downhill slide. The same in the garden of eden. Although there is another meaning as well. The single thought of separation from God was like the child that did something wrong for the first time. It was devastating. Our fear of making mistakes, keeps us judging everything so we won't make a mistake. We so feared losing the love of God. A split second thought, fear. And judgment is born. That is the fog to me. Judgment is a body thing, not a spirit thing to me, and even though Jesus said about the Father judging truly, there might be only one judgment... that there is none, because of who we are. How could we judge love, how could we judge happiness, did the Christ really live these states of mind? I just wonder if the Ancient of Days thinks 'well if we do this that would be good, but if we did that how bad that would be??!! In a state of creative mind, there just is no judgment that I have discovered. ZIA CREATOR GOD Oh mighty power within me concentrate upon all I see fulfill the pictures of your plan the Law of One, the Way for man. ----- Real power is to see, feel and know give the thought life, and watch it grow; daily tasks effortlessly done bliss joy and happiness, now won. ----- Oh God create in peace your plan fill it with joy, be real for man; open my eyes, new world outside the plan is done, laughter abides. ----- I focus, I am controller I steer, I am navigator; in sleep - awake creating plans awake - watching dreams expand. ----- I now let go of life's demands I accept God's true perfect plan; all I need comes from within me I know, I feel, and then I see. ----- Mind is the mighty gift of God creating life from land of nod; I am filled with God's greater mind now God comes forth and I am kind. ZIA 1994 Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-04/4262 From: Rick Audette Subject: The Gathering of Lights Talking about "tiny lives", brings to mind a picture that has fascinated me for decades. The original picture was drawn by Charles Babbit, in the late 1800's. It is from a description given by a clairvoyant, in the book, Occult Chemistry, by Ledbetter & Bessant. The clairvoyant used his sight to zoom in on the microscopic world. He first described what atoms looked like and then zoomed in closer to describe sub-atomic particles, then sub-sub-atomic and ultimately sub-sub-sub- atomic, what we now call quarks. When asked what these were in turn made of, he said there were billions of empty bubbles in the basic substance (aether) that spiraled around in the pattern shown in this picture. http://www.ont.com/users/rea1/babbit.jpg Now what is interesting is that this same spiraling energy pattern can be seen, on a larger scale, in the human aura, and on an even larger scale in the aura of the sun. It would seem then that this is the signature of all forms of consciousness life in manifestation. One of the dynamics of these spinning fields is that they tend to link up with others of there own kind, forming the next higher form of life and those collectives tend also to want to link up with other collectives, so that several steps up from quarks we have atoms, which form molecules, etc. conceivably all the way up to the top of the scale, God. I don't know what name we will end up using for a molecule made up of humans, but I do know that my life has been a series of experiments in becoming part of one. I've been in communes, co-ops, communities and families. It is this drive, in me, that sparked the creation of this mail list. Much of the activity, you see coming from me, is because of this drive for uniting. I don't know what we, as a group are becoming, but I have a burning desire to be a part of it and I do my best to stir up this same passion in others. Burnin' to get turnin', Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4263 From: Rick Audette Subject: Judgment The very act of creating the universe is a judgment, on Gods part, to be or not to be. If any conscious entity ever truly stopped all judgment, it would simply cease being. How destructive. Zia's attempts to spend time being totally non judgmental led her to put the milk in the cupboard. I don't think I would want to drink that milk, if I found it there. This type philosophy, of being totally nonjudgmental, is one of the things that has always turned me off to "new age". I tell them, no thanks, I've had too much chaos already. My experience shows me that G.O.D. stands for Good Orderly Direction. After all, doesn't it say that God created the world by putting chaos into order, separating light from dark. Your Sgt. at Arms, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4264 From: Rick Audette Subject: Sudden drop in members Between my last 2 posts, we went from 175 to 161 members. Gee, I hope it wasn't something I said :) I don't know what caused this. Maybe Spiritweb is doing more house cleaning. I'll let you all know if I hear anything. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4265 From: Beto Damis Subject: Re: Sudden drop in members "Between my last 2 posts, we went from 175 to 161 members. Gee, I hope it wasn't something I said :) I don't know what caused this. Maybe Spiritweb is doing more house cleaning. I'll let you all know if I hear anything. Rick" As a newcomer who is just here at Isabelle's request to check things out I have my own list, the LuLuZoo, nothing like this one - may I ask how many of those 161 who remain ever posted a message to this list? Personally, I can't stand lurkers, and the number one requirement at the LuLuZoo is NO LURKERS ALLOWED. You shouldn't be too upset about the momentary drop in subscribers, if the ones who left were just lurking in the first place. Best Regards, Robertino http://www.apollonius.net/ Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4266 From: Beto Damis Subject: Comment The posts to this list sure do zoom through the Net routers *FAST*! My compliments to you in that regard. Robertino Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4267 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Immortality I didn't see it till now. Diane "Beto Damis wrote: "SAY WHAT? Did everyone else see all this =3D-=3D-=3D, etc?" Post No. keys-1 /1999-05-03/4268 From: Subject Editor's note: Blank post Post No. keys-1: /1999-05-03/4269 From: Subject Editor's note: Blank post. Post No. keys-1: /1999-05-03/4270 From: Subject Editor's note: Blank post. Post No. keys-1: /1999-05-03/4271 From: Subject Editor's note: Blank post. Post No. keys-1: /1999-05-03/4272 From: Subject Editor's note: Blank post. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4273 From: "xavier" Subject: Re : Re: Re : Re: Sudden drop in members oh yes, 91 is real too low, i was reading 140 when I wrote. I *am* paranoid, tho:-) haaah xavier wrote: "But I do agree that if it was uneasy lurkers that got upset with Angela's affair, they're welcome to get out, as well as to get in:-)" Glenys: "It's hard to believe that our numbers have almost halved in less than two days because of one difference of opinion. I think it is probably more a problem with Spiritweb." Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4274 From: "xavier" Subject: Re: Judgment Samu Karlsson writes: "Again, it's about becoming rather than just being, that would halt one's growth, make him immobile in the flow. It is rather fascinating :)" Yes, I see judgment (in a good mild definition) as an ability to sense the present. A clear perception. But judgment, meaning judging others, their core, putting limitative destructive judgment on them, is a very spread habit, and it's good to remind that this habit is destructive, highly so. Yet I like to try to give a meaning to that word, that talks about something good and lofty, an ability of consciousness. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4275 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Immortality Belle writes: "Just out of curiosity.. How many people on this list believe in immortality??" "I'm not sure when I started thinking about it, but at some point I realized that every time I heard stories of immortals walking the earth, it just felt right.." "I also always believed that we all have the ability to renew our physical selves at will.. Instantaneously... However, just now I seem to have "forgotten" how to do it. I know it has something to do with feeling centered and at peace, but I'm just not able to "get there" at the moment.." Hi Belle It would seem to me that all of us who have read "The Immortal" resonate with immortal. We feel/know that it is so. How else could John the Beloved be giving his message first to JJ and through JJ we are on this wonderful receiving end. I keep telling my grandsons that science says we only use 10% or our brains so what is the rest of the 90% for? (grin) I get amused watching the gears grinding in their heads. Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4276 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Immortality Sharon writes: "Every cell in our body regenerates, I believe, every 7 years, so we are made anew completely every 7 years, of course, if we have manifested a disease in our physical that dis-ease is re-manifested, so until we re-member the knowledge of perfect health in each cell we keep manifesting that dis-ease-ment, at least that is what I was taught and it resonated with me but some knowingness tells me this illness manifestation is not how we were suppose to be. Sure wish I had better thinking processes and words today. much love and light to everyone, Sharon" Hi Sharon It's been a few years since I last heard anyone mention the 7 year "regeneration" our bodies go through. It's good to learn that the words are still going around. I also resonated with it and have wondered if we could 'regenerate' a healthy physical body. Theoretically, it could happen so I see no reason why we shouldn't try. Love and Light Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4277 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Missing posts on the SpiritWeb archives page I just noticed the next post after Diane's Re: Immortality post that can be seen on the http://www.spiritweb.org/cgi/ml.cgi?list=keys-l&which=1999-18&passwd=immortal page is an empty letter, no sender or subject line, and the next one is Xavier's Re: Re: Re : Re: Sudden drop in members, but I did receive 2 letters from JJ, 2 from Xavier, 1 from Glenys, and 1 sent myself in my mailbox, but seems like they never appeared on the archives page itself, so yes, there's something bizarre with the way the SpiritWeb server is behaving... Hopefully Rene is able to fix it soon. Just worried that those who read the archives page only will lose posts... Hey!!! Just noticed we are back up to 174 members! Alrightey, things are normalizing here... :) Like everything, this soon will pass, and things will get back to how it used to be, and then evolve even beyond that point! :) Wishing everybody a good day/night, my daily dose of light's been pretty good :) Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4278 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Fwd: Judgement 101 (JJ's missing post 1) Just in case the 2 posts from JJ don't appear here, I am forwarding them :) Samu Forwarded letter starts here: I want to make sure that all lurkers know they are welcome on this list. Sometimes they come to the surface and become regular contributors, but if not we hope they are regular learners. Many lurkers have written me personally and I know appreciate being here. Concerning judgment, I do make a judgment as to when I am clean in the shower because I am usually in a big hurry when I do so and get out as soon as I judge myself clean. My wife gives me a bad time about showering so fast as she does go on that automatic pilot Zia mentioned and takes her time. It is true that many of our actions are habits and not predicated on judgment, but many are not. I would agree with you Zia if you are talking about the negative aspect of judgment. This can be very destructive, but you act as if all judgments are bad and this is not logical. Without judgment every decision we make would be random and lead to destruction. As Rick said it would lead to a state of non livingness. Zia states: "I believe if Jesus had made one judgment while on that cross, he would have crucified his body completely, and not resurrected. It is possible to cease judgment. It comes through statement of fact for me." Jesus made several judgments while on the cross. He made a judgment that John was the one who should take care of his mother and he complied. He made a judgment that it was still worthwhile to petition God to forgive those who crucified Him. He made a judgment to not call on angels to deliver Him. He made a judgment to be silent when accused. None of these judgments were the result of an automatic pilot. Zia writes: "I feel so strongly that if we ceased judgment we could hear our soul loud and clear, and would not need discernment, discrimination, and all the definitions. Our spirit would guide us so supremely. In everything. Perhaps you think I am naive, I AM." I make dozens of judgments a day and it aids in my soul contact. Zia: "How could we judge love, how could we judge happiness, did the Christ really live these states of mind?" I judge love all the time. My judgment tells me that there is a lot of love among the members of this group. I know that this judgment does not interfere with any soul contact. I also judge myself to be reasonably happy. I think we just need to define our terms better and then it would be difficult to disagree. A Course in Miracles went overboard to make a point about negative judgment just as the Apostle Paul did about being saved by grace. The disciples of both took the interpretation too literally and swung too far over on the pendulum. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4279 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Fwd: Gathering 101 (JJ's missing post 2) Question: How did the gathering principle lift the consciousness of humanity o we switched over from being ruled by the power of kings to the power of the people through democratic principles? How was the Gathering Principle responsible for the Constitution of the United States? Let us go through a brief history of the gathering principle. Subatomic particles gathered and created atoms. Atoms gathered and created molecules. Molecules gathered and created cells. Cells gathered and created all living forms. The highest of the living forms (humans) gathered and created tribes. Tribes gathered and created kingdoms. The highest gathered out of the kingdoms and created constitutional government with higher freedoms through the principle of competition. Now we are approaching the greatest gathering of all. What do you suppose will happen this time? Insight: The earth changes that so many are concerned about are awaiting the gathering of lights for the earth does not seek to destroy those who nourish her. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4280 From: Rick Audette Subject: Lost members Spiritweb informed me, "We just ran out of disk-space temporarily, and I fixed it. For about 2-3 hrs some distribution lists of mailing-lists got truncated and this caused rejections of posts during that time despite of the correctness of subscription." I watch, in horror last night, as the list membership dropped, 175-160-140-108-91 I thought it might be a technical problem. It was. If you sent anything to the group, between 12 and 6:30 a.m. central time, it may have only gotten to a limited few. You may need to resend it now that the membership is back up to the full 175. JJ's posts last night showed they went out when the membership count was only 91. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4281 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Judgment 101 J J Dewey wrote: "Zia states: "I believe if Jesus had made one judgment while on that cross, he would have crucified his body completely, and not resurrected. It is possible to cease judgment. It comes through statement of fact for me." Jesus made several judgments while on the cross." Hi Folks, It seems that some clarification of terms is in order here. The point about not judging may well be lost if it is not attached to another principle. Yes, it is true that Jesus made judgments quite often while walking through his mission. And without another principle to balance this truth, it would seem hypocritical for him to say, "judge not". And we make judgments constantly, or as Rick points out, we may become nothing. So how could I or anybody make a statement that we are not to judge, without being hypocritical? To answer, we need only see the balance that is there in the scriptures. Jesus, all throughout the gospels, is reported as saying, "my words are not my own, but whatever I hear the Father say, that I is what I say" (loosely quoted). But what is the significance of this, and why is it said so many times by Jesus in so many different ways? The reason is that he had decided to attach himself to the higher judgment of the Father. By making that kind of connection, the way was clear for him to call about judgments that were given to him by the Father. Not my will but thine be done. In this same way, we are called not to non judgment, but to attachment to higher judgment. With our judgment in align with the Father, we are then truly free to handle the situations in life, without putting ourselves on a high pedestal. And once again, to balance the message that Paul gives in regard to faith, one merely has to find the balancing scripture. In this case, we have Paul writing: "I care very little if you judge me, or if I'm judged by any court of man. In fact, I don't even judge myself. My conscience is clear. But that doesn't make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore, judge nothing before the time, but wait for the Lord, who exposes the hidden things and the motives of men's hearts. Then all will receive their praise from God." You can see here not only the method of making judgments, buy also the result of following this pattern. All will receive praises from God. Amazing stuff! This of course dovetails very nicely with the scripture JJ pointed out, "All things work together for good to those who love God, (second part not quoted) and are the called according to His purpose". To put this in another perspective, let's consider the "little lives" that JJ has discussed. And let's use the organs of the body as an illustration. It would seem that all of my organs, while working properly, are in complete alignment with the "father's will". (My own will) But what would happen if those self same organs began to make judgments on their own that contradicted the judgments of their father,(me)? Well, they could easily decide on a course of action which is contrary to my desire. They could invite or allow destructive elements to invade their space and thus cause me much dis-ease. But if after a time, the organs in question were to realign with the higher purpose of the entire body, they would become once again healthy, because this is the desire of their father. Likewise, if I would be a productive member of the body of Christ, I should relinquish my judgments and accept His judgments. In this way I can say, "judge not" without hypocrisy. In this way I attach my will to the will of the Father who has promised that He is good. And when this is done, the will of the Father, which is Love is made manifest, and the body thrives, free of my own judgments which might, if allowed to, contradict the higher principle of Love which is the higher "law of life" which has swallowed death. There is no greater freedom that I can imagine than to trust the judgments of God, which have been made a long time ago. In the Psalms, David calls to God and says, "Remember your mercy and compassion, for they are from old". When we align our will with the will of the Father, we are then free to live WITH judgments, yet without judgmentalism. This is perhaps the grandest Truth that I have ever accepted. But these words are not my own, but what I have heard the Father say, that I proclaim. Live under the wings of God's goodness. And enjoy! Blessings to all, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4282 From: "cynthia coconato" Subject: Re: Sudden drop in members Hay Beto :-) Welcome to Keys of Knowledge. I've posted. Don't post every day. Don't feel I ought to post just to see my name in print if I have nothing to say on a given day. Good to see you again. you are LOVED, AMara Joystar Question Reality http://www.freeread.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4283 From: Beto Damis Subject: Re: Sudden drop in members Buon Giorno, Cynthia! Nice to run into you again, as well. Also I noticed that Glenys Lowrey is hereabouts. However, I really don't think that this list is my cup of tea. So I'll probably be unsub'ing later today. Best Regards to All! Beto Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4284 From: "cynthia coconato" Subject: Re: Sudden drop in members yes. no. maybe so hard to tell in one day :-) L~AJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4285 From: Rick Audette Subject: Sudden drop in members Hi all, It now appears that the members count is back to what it was, just before the technical problems began, so nobody left us. As to lurkers being accepted, hey even I have to sit back and just listen, now and then. Some people are just not as verbal as others. That's okay, but I would hope that everyone would at least make some contacts with either JJ, myself, or others on the list. It helps with the family feelings and with becoming one. One, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4286 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Judgment I am usually a lurker, letting Sharon do the postings, however, I wanted to offer my thoughts on this subject . With all the discussions on judgment Vs Non-Judgment, I had an insight on another view of it. I can judge the act of murder as negative, while still not judging the god/human doing it, as we are all one, so, for me this fits in with "Judge not, lest ye be judged", because we would then be judging ourselves. I am substituting decision for judging, i.e. Jesus made several decisions while on the cross, etc. Decision may be negative or positive, the same as judgments. This makes a difference, for me in the way I view the word "judgment. love and light to you all, Richard Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4287 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Re: Immortality - and more Hi Belle and all of you wonderful keysters, About immortality, Belle: Yes, like most of the keysters I am sure immortality is a true principle that we will all learn to apply sooner or later. It rings very true in my soul and John the Beloved showed this. And when we humans can do that I am sure God can overcome physical death as well - if he so decides. In nature nothing dies = disappears - it just changes into another form. Humans also. When we expand our ring-pass-not we will be able to control our form better and thus keep our bodies as long as we want :-)) John K. - thinking of you - sending light and love your way. I really enjoy your posts so much - I am very happy you are back :-)) If Samu is right about the missing letters - please will somebody send them to the list? I - and probably others as well - do not get the e-mails but read the archives online. It would be a pity to miss some of these great posts :-(( Love and light to all of you Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-06/4288 From: "Jill" Subject: Fw: Judgment Hello Rick, JJ, Zia and all, I know what Zia describes and one can only understand what one feels and is experiencing. What is right for one individual may not be right for another just because one does not feel what another is going through doesn't mean it is wrong or right it just means that this is what the individual has chosen to walk with God side by side instead of ahead or behind. A Non Judgment Path without the presence of God/love may to some feel completely impossible but with God/love anything is possible. If God/love flows through everyone and everything how could I judge God or God's plan especially when I can not see the whole picture at the time. I suppose working on "auto pilot" is about shifting focus from the head to the heart. An individual does not have to concentrate any efforts to think yet individuals do this all the time to analyse, understand, gather information, to decide what is best however is it for us to know everything? Our insides function best when on auto pilot and trusting that the information will appear. Do we have to concentrate efforts on our kidneys/liver for them to work or do they work naturally? Sometimes the best experiences and information come out from quite acceptance. I see the creation of those around at this time that reflect decisions made fom the head, instead of the heart. Within the heart that is where God/Love flows and that is where the best decisions come from when one is open to trust. When I feel this perfect love I feel so secure that fear and doubt do not exist and I am very loving and my external environment reflects that. I also have a lot more direction, get up and go as my limiting thoughts are no longer in the way. What came to me just before I read Zia's post that what may be behind the lesson of surrendering to God and not to judge maybe trust, faith, love, acceptance of all even if one doesn't understand at the time. Zia's post confirmed my direction was right for me at this time. There is much to learn from not judging, surrendering, trusting, loving, acceptance, giving, etc...out of God/love comes pure magic and anything is possible there are no limits as limited thoughts have been retired out. Out of the stillness, the act of listening occurs and we are in line with God's will and can hear God's wisdom for our part in the Greater Plan. If you wish to describe Zia's writing as Milk in the Cupboard then with God/love this may be the sweetest milk found. Very much a treasure and I am joyful to be in the company of such a treasure. Just because someone can not feel another's experience or the beautiful love bubbling inside does not mean it does not exist, John wrote about the love within in the bible 1 John Chp 4 7 - 21 and to love your neighbour as you would yourself does that mean we love only part of him? What is New Age? To your point of being a co-creator and actively making judgments, I thought creation was born out of decision/inspiration/observation/reflection. Some might say what is the difference between decision and judgment the difference may lie with the intention of the individual. Yes individuals can make decisions/judgments for their life however when one surrenders the thoughts and intention of working on their own to working with God then what we create becomes effortless and in harmony with God's will and every activity in life becomes a meditation a 24hour communion with God not asking just giving and accepting. People that surrender can still have desires and needs they just leave the details up to God and trust that God will provide. One could call this the art of Manifestation which I read in one part of the bible Jesus did the act of manifestation and quite contemplation. JJ's point about the shower and deciding if one is clean enough or not, that is born out of experience and we do not have to decide we just know. I think what the difference between surrendering to God and or deciding for yourself is focusing from outcome to the experience. From belief/blind faith to a knowing that is beyond words or explanation. It is knowing born out of opening up ones heart and the desire to be of service to others instead of one's self. For all those people on the list that have a love of making decisions and consciously co creating why not try what Zia describes or what my post is talking about. Once information is gathered from experience then one can know and make an informed judgment instead of brushing it off as poppycock. In the Immortal when Joseph transported did he make a decision to do that or was the decision made for him, and when he followed the sound of the bells did he consciously decide first before the sound or did he know to follow after he heard the sound. At this time it may be appropriate to say when the Student is ready the teacher appears.... I value your post Rick, JJ, Zia and love and respect everyone's views. I know all are on their appropriate paths and everything is how it should be. I love the opportunity to connect and give through the wonderful gift of communication. Love to all, Jill I am becoming all I decide to become - JJ. Dewey. The Immortal http://www.freeread.com Where there is love there is no fear/doubt When an individual focuses on the outcome they may miss the journey along the way. Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-06/4289 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Missing posts Anni and All, except for the 2 posts from JJ I already forwarded, here should be the rest of the missing posts :) As immortal as God is eternal, Samu :) From: "xavier" John Kosior writes: "Howdy Folks, As most of you know, I've recently taken up a journey. Leaving my home in So. Fla, I've decided to make certain stops along the way. So I'm here at my sister's house visiting and sharing from whatever I have for the enlightenment of my family members." Is it a way of speaking, or are you really there only to bring something to them? Because if this is so, no need to emprison you in destructive relationships. Be free as the wind, you can't do good to someone by doing harm to you. Guilt, fear etc... are no motivations, except to bring trouble. "Having been removed from my family for many years, I can easily see the differences between me and those of my family who still live in many of the illusions that I have overcome. This being the case, I am also learning about the effects that others can have on us," ...when we let them, and we let them when we don't respect ourselves enough. We someway are the firsts to treat ourselves bad, by dependence. Tis better to be absent and free than present and stuck in emotional trouble. Better for both parts of the relationship, it gives them more evolution. "whether positive or negative. So finding myself in the company of five who have not overcome, or even acknowledged the illusions of this life," I couldn't live that. Or I live the way I love to (having personal space), or I get out. "I'm finding it quite challenging to maintain the highest level of clarity that I have possessed in the past. It kind of makes me realize why Jesus was reported as often going off to be alone in between his public appearances. Perhaps this was to maintain his connection with the Father and not be sucked into the illusions of the masses." Well, maybe him, but we have enough illusions of our own, to beware not to be sucked in. "This being said, it occurred to me that I have another family to which I might ask for help. You, my spiritual family, I consider to be beyond many of the illusions that I am dealing with in my present circumstances. So if any of you feel inclined to help," ...Well don't know if it is of any help, but my only message is: get out, get away, go breathe some air, and redo yourself, in sharing with nature, the world, etc.. and FREEDOM. "would you consider directing some of your energy while in meditation, or while singing the song to this location? I am only one with vision in a house of five in illusion and I'm finding it difficult to be at my best in this situation. Just as one point of interest, my sister was a member of the army reserves during the gulf war. She served at that time in Saudi Arabia and has since been inflicted with what is being called the "gulf war syndrome". Of course the US government has decided that this malady does not exist, and as such they are doing everything they can to deny benefits to the service men and women who have legitimate medical problems related to that condition. Today, the Veterans Administration notified my sister that she would be denied benefits that she has been asking for for two years, based on their claim that they don't have the paperwork that my sister submitted in due time two years ago. I can actually see the effect that this is having on her." Yeah, it's more her emotions that kill her than the gulf war syndrome, is it not? So overall it's an initiation malady, that puts her in front of her autodestructivity? (sorry if I'm insensitive, you know me, please only take what rings true and useful) "It seems to me that the "beast" is alive and well and out to damage and destroy whomever it can, and quite frankly, it's pissing me off." So the best help you can give, is to give example. How do you get free from the beast? By not believing in the delusions of fear it promotes. Show that to them, show that you do it in your own life, and if you can give that example, and at the same time remain in contact with them... but mind you, the only contact that you must have with them is one which respects your free will (no guilt i'm stuck i must fuck myself), otherwize, you'll only show you're fucked up as well, and anything you say won't do anything. So act as free, and they'll be grateful, even if you piss them off, you'll be an example that they can do it. Talk *and act* the voice of the spirit free-will/power in action. "I am doing all that I know to thwart the ill effects of this, but I sure could use your support. I'm not asking you to post any response to the list, but just to remember me in your prayers." Well I only feel like answering. I send a few thoughts to you, loving ones, also. "I know that if even one of you will decide to give this your attention, that would make two of us and that would make three as the Christ said that if two of us would agree as touching anything, it would be done by the Father." ...and by us, we have the cogwheels in hand remember? "Thanks for reading this and know that if you have specific needs, I will always avail myself to lending my support to you. All Blessings, John" Push it through, thrust it. With your throat. RRhhaa! Shout it out. Acting, doing. Word. Action. You are decision, spirit, not matter's limitations. ----- From: "xavier" Beto Damis "Personally, I can't stand lurkers," uh oh, I do know there are very good "lurkers". I am at times, and in some places. But I do agree that if it was uneasy lurkers that got upset with Angela's affair, they're welcome to get out, as well as to get in:-) (as my grandmother said, the door is open to get in, and out; that means: don't put claims on me:-) ----- From: Glenys Lowery It's hard to believe that our numbers have almost halved in less than two days because of one difference of opinion. I think it is probably more a problem with Spiritweb. Love Glenys PS As to who is gathering, I think it's the believers (the ones who have chosen Him) from our analysis of Matthew 24:31 a few days ago. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Today, something is happening to the whole structure of human consciousness. A fresh kind of life is starting. Driven by the forces of love, the fragments of the world are seeking each other, so that the world may come into being. ~ Teilhard de Chardin ----- From: Samu Karlsson -Hey hey all, whats whats? Anybody know the reason behind the sudden drop in number of Keysters? Is there something going on with SpiritWeb server again? You heard something Rick? Strange... John, you and your family are in warmest thoughts and prayers, my friend :) And, your posts lately have been filled with warmth and wisdom, I have thoroughly enjoyed them. Thanks for sharing this snapshot of eternity with us all :) I hope and I *know* everything will work out for the best for you :) There's been so many wonderful posts on the list lately that have really made me *think*, deeper than I have done for a while. JJ, Zia, Rob, Belle (so great to hear from you again!) etc, etc, etc, thank you ALL for sharing :) And Glenys, 'spiritually correct' or not, I will always be glad to join your company and listen to you sharing your wisdom, absolutely :) I am still contemplating the real difference between decision and judgment, because it seems to me that when you make a decision about something, you sort of freeze everything momentarily in time/space, fixate the points so you can see what's what and make an opinion, a judgment about the current situation in order to go where you decide to go, be who you want to be. It's all related to your perception being slightly behind your choices too. But just as the time/space besides us changes, so do our judgments, as we gain deeper understanding of things. Again, it's about becoming rather than just being, that would halt one's growth, make him immobile in the flow. It is rather fascinating :) Hmm, maybe judgment is thinking man's way of decising over his direction :) I used to see the word judgment as something quite negative, but now I see colors instead of black and white :) Thank you All for being who you are being where you are!!! A regular learner (is who I try to be:) Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-05-05/4290 From: Angela Kahealani Subject: Karmically Expensive Will Angela@Kahealani.org writes: JJ writes: "The gathering concept is the basic principle behind all evolution, physical and spiritual. Why do you suppose this is so?" "Whenever two or more are gathered in my name there also shall I be", is a clue to the synergy of spiritual co-creation. For some of us it is expressed in a mathematical formula... that the power of co-creation is the square of the number of united wills. Synergy = the product of union is greater than the sum of the parts. This is neve