1999 - WEEK 11 Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3399 From: Glenys Subject: Greetings Hi Everyone, It looks like I've made it back after my computer ending up in Computer Hospital seven times in the last five weeks. But after a few organ transplants, a good dose of computer Viagra (not to mention copious liposuction on my wallet) it's off again with a Hiss and a Roar. I still don't know what the problem was - the technician muttered something about electro- magnetic problems in the same way that some men talk about 'women's complaints' so I guess it means he didn't really know. But I think that's what's wrong with your sister JJ (electro-magnetic problems that is, not a women's complaint :-) If you think of the body as an electro-magnetic energy system, a metal pin can upset the polarities and compromise the body's immune system. Allergies are a typical result of this kind of imbalance (as are mercury amalgam tooth fillings in some people). Unfortunately I lost all my data, including about 500-700 bookmarks and a couple of hundred email addresses (guess who's now a staunch proponent of back ups :-). So now I have to beg you to send me your URL's and ICQ's please (off list, of course). I have several hundred emails to catch up on so will write more later. I just wanted you to know that I missed you all and really appreciated those who got in touch with me via my work address (thanks for posting it JJ) Catch you all later. Love Glenys Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3400 From: Sharri Lorraine Subject: Re: Joyful Funerals Richard/ Sharon wrote: "J.J. Be as cheerful as you like, when my Dad was in the funeral home, on the night before the burial many of his friends and family were there for "The viewing" every one got to telling "their" stories and rememberances and we all got to laughing so loud, that the Funeral Home Director came to ask us to keep the laughter down because we were disturbing the others. Dad must have loved that. Sharon" "Celebrate Life! The person's Life, your Life, All Life! I believe that words are spelled a certain way for a Purpose. This is a FUNERal, not a SADERal, so have FUN & Laugh & Love!!! And - Releasing tears can be JoyFull, too. Blessings JJ" {\@/} / \ * _\|/_ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Love & Light & Laughter Bubbles! :) :) Sharri Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3401 From: Sharri Lorraine Subject: A Story To Live By A Gift, because you mean a lot to me! ~~ Love, Sharri ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Story To Live By My brother-in-law opened the drawer of my sister's bureau and lifted out a tissue-wrapped package. "This," he said, "is not a slip. This is lingerie." He discarded the tissue and handed me the slip. It was exquisite; silk, handmade and trimmed with a cobweb of lace. The price tag with an astronomical figure on it was still attached. "Jan bought this the first time we went to New York, at least 8 or 9 years ago. She never wore it. She was saving it for a special occasion. Well, I guess this is the occasion." He took the slip from me and put it on the bed with the other clothes we were taking to the mortician. His hands lingered on the soft material for a moment, then he slammed the drawer shut and turned to me. "Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Every day you're alive is a special occasion." I remembered those words through the funeral and the days that followed when I helped him and my niece attend to all the sad chores that follow an unexpected death. I thought about them on the plane returning to California from the Midwestern town where my sister's family lives. I thought about all the things that she hadn't seen or heard or done. I thought about the things that she had done without realizing that they were special. I'm still thinking about his words, and they've changed my life. I'm reading more and dusting less. I'm sitting on the deck and admiring the view without fussing about the weeds in the garden. I'm spending more time with my family and friends and less time in committee meetings. Whenever possible, life should be a pattern of experience to savor, not endure. I'm trying to recognize these moments now and cherish them. I'm not "saving" anything; we use our good china and crystal for every special event-such as losing a pound, getting the sink unstopped, the first camellia blossom. I wear my good blazer to the market if I like it. My theory is if I look prosperous, I can shell out $28.49 for one small bag of groceries without wincing. I'm not saving my good perfume for special parties; clerks in hardware stores and tellers in banks have noses that function as well as my party-going friends. "Someday" and "one of these days" are losing their grip on my vocabulary. If it's worth seeing or hearing or doing, I want to see and hear and do it now. I'm not sure what my sister would've done had she known that she wouldn't be here for the tomorrow we all take for granted. I think she would have called family members and a few close friends. She might have called a few former friends to apologize and mend fences for past squabbles. I like to think she would have gone out for a Chinese dinner, her favorite food. I'm guessing - I'll never know. It's those little things left undone that would make me angry if I knew that my hours were limited. Angry because I put off seeing good friends whom I was going to get in touch with - someday. Angry because I hadn't written certain letters that I intended to write - one of these days. Angry and sorry that I didn't tell my husband and daughter often enough how much I truly love them. I'm trying very hard not to put off, hold back, or save anything that would add laughter and luster to our lives. And every morning when I open my eyes, I tell myself that it is special. Every day, every minute, every breath truly is... a gift from God. If you've received this it is because someone cares for you. If you're too busy to take the few minutes that it would take right now to forward this to ten people, would it be the first time you didn't do that little thing that would make a difference in your relationships? I can tell you it certainly won't be the last. Take a few minutes to send this to a few people you care about, just to let them know that you're thinking of them. May love litter your life with blessings! JUST SEND IT!! "You've got to dance like nobody's watching, and love like it's never going to hurt." "People say true friends must always hold hands, but true friends don't need to hold hands because they know the other hand will always be there." While you rest, angels will step in & restore serenity. {\@/} / \ * _\|/_ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Love & Light & Laughter Bubbles! :) :) Sharri Lorraine Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3402 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: To Initiate JJ writes: "Hitler was an initiate and so was Abraham Lincoln. How did these two men use the power of initiation, one for evil and the other for good?" It would seem that this brings us back to decision, attention, action/activation. Each made his own choices using his free will to accomplish that which he wished to do. It's just that one chose negative and the other chose positive. I like to think that finding the middle between negative and positive is finding balance. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3403 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: To Initiate J J Dewey wrote: "I'll give a few more thoughts on the ring-pass-not." There is something about this concept of ring-pass-not that reminds me of grabbing the ring on the merry-go-round. Catch the ring or you pass-not. "To the dog the humans are Gods to be loved, but to the chicken we are overlords to be feared." With good reason too, just ask a chicken about the Colonel and KFC. ;-) However in some parts of the world the dog is eaten too. "Now to the lives higher than human there are many freedoms that are just beyond our ring- pass-not that seems very simple to them." "Some of these are: The power to live without food and water for extended periods of time. The power to shift in and out of this world and the next. The power to become invisible. The power to perform miraculous healings The power to manifest a body at will through the power of Decision- Attention -Consciousness. The power of telepathy. The power of omnipresence The access to all knowledge And many others." I think we should be able to do these things but we don't know how to do some of them yet. "Becoming an initiate is an important series of steps in expanding the ring-pass-not. Yesterday we asked what an initiate was. Marilyn came the closest by stating: "To me, becoming an initiate means to be at the beginning of something new. Call it awakening, if you choose." "This statement is on the right track, but let me add an additional hint. To discover the true meaning of becoming an initiate we must ask the question - What does it mean to initiate a thing?" To prepare to become awakened. To prepare for the awakened state. "The power of initiation is neither good nor evil but is a little like money and can be used for either." "Hitler was an initiate and so was Abraham Lincoln." "How did these two men use the power of initiation, one for evil and the other for good?' Hitler initiated his power for the dark (evil) side and Lincoln used his for the light (good) side. Once the power was initiated, it was manifested in the physical world. For Hitler, it was concentration camps and death to millions of people. For Lincoln, it was freedom of slaves. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3404 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: To Initiate JJ writes: "Becoming an initiate is an important series of steps in expanding the-ring-pass-not. Yesterday we asked what an initiate was. Marilyn came the closest by stating: "To me, becoming an initiate means to be at the beginning of something new. Call it awakening, if you choose." "This statement is on the right track, but let me add an additional hint. To discover the true meaning of becoming an initiate we must ask the question - What does it mean to initiate a thing?" I see being initiated similar to being introduced to a new higher level of potential. It is reaching a wider state of consciousness, inside of which the decision made have more far-reaching effects than those made within the 'smaller rings', which the ring with the bigger radius of potential and free choice of action encompass. We can find an analog in the atomic world. The nucleus can have up to 7 (there's that number again:) 'rings' of electrons spinning around it, and these 7 layers represent different potential levels. When the atom is charged with electrons on all 7 layers, as is the case with uranium, which is the 'heaviest' atom found in nature, the potential is so great that it can change the structure of the atom itself. I am sure everybody agrees that the effects of a nuclear explosion are quite far-reaching. After initiation the landscape and its possibilities are basically uncharted, neutral in a way, until the decision to harness the potential to either end of the scale, 'good' or 'bad' as was in the example with Lincoln and Hitler, is utilized. I'd say being initiated means to awaken to what can be achieved thru decision and then having the opportunity of consciously starting to walk on the path towards manifesting and generating what can be mastered into the world, and doing it to the limit and further expanding and moving the wall of next of the ring further away inside the world of possibilities. There's always more, challenges, room for growth, depth of insight, expressions of love, you name it, we just need to make the decision and choose the direction, know that we are never alone, and never give up. Being an initiate means you know there's always more to become, yet you are aware of what is within your reach at the present moment, and you decide to be a part of the process, starting *now* and going on eternally. If we lived each moment like it was a new beginning to anything we wanted to create or become, wow, that's an abundant thought isn't it? :) Dear Glenys, so great to have you back among us!!! Missed ya big bunches! :D Brightest of vibes, Samu :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3405 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: The Initiate "When one finally does expand the ring-pass-not beyond the power of the Beast he then obtains the power to become an initiate. Question: What does it mean to become an initiate?" Hi J J and everyone, As far as earth life is concerned the human being passes five stages to reach their final goal. If the human being is consisted of spirit, soul and personality, the personality has to expand or unfold their consciousness/love from the physical, astral or emotional and mental aspects of the personality, through the soul to the spirit so that a new life may take over. There are thus five initiations as far as human evolution on earth is concerned. In the 1st initiation the physical consciousness/love is transcended and the personality is reoriented to the soul life in terms of submitting their physical appetites to true love for self and others. In the 2nd initiation the emotional consciousness/love is transcended and the personality has balanced the bulk of their desires and emotional reactions so much so that their love for self and others become purer and truer than ever before. After taking the 3rd initiation the personality is totally transfigured. Their mental consciousness/love is so illumined that all illusion is dissipated. They see reality as it is and consequently illusion as it is and as it is not. In this light of the soul which is fire all residues of desire and physical appetites have been burned up. The root of the personality which is the body of the soul or the so-called causal body has to go as well if the 4th initiation is to be taken. The soul body as form of the highest level matter is now to shatter so that the soul may return home to spirit and the personality may be joined to spirit directly. The personality has completely renounced itself for the sake of spirit. This is symbolized by the death on the cross. Then together with the soul the personality returns to spirit and itself puts on the life of spirit. As soul consciousness/love is transcended by spiritual consciousness/love life is truly revealed to the earth pilgrim. This is the 5th initiation of revelation, the end of earth evolution to be followed by higher evolution beyond planet earth. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3406 From: Paul Yu Subject: Re: The Initiate "But I do have a question: If experiences give us the teaching from life to life, and we go forward because of experiences - what good does theoretical teachings do? Like reading "The Immortal"? Please don't get me wrong - I loved reading the book - and I can't wait till no. 3! But does theoretical teaching speed up our progress? Or does it give us the possibility of deciding more consciously?" "Light and love to all of you Anni" Hi Anni and everyone, All knowledge, theoretical included, is ultimately based on experience and all experiences are ultimately founded on reality. So all knowledge is real in the fundamental sense. If we are talking about theoretical teachings which are interpretations of experiences directly coming from the soul as messenger of spirit, we will certainly benefit by them to the extent to which we are prepared to understand them. Even if we were not ready to receive them others may. If a spiritual aspirant is so inclined as to take an intellectual approach to consciousness/love they would undoubtedly be able to take advantage of the kind of energy they are endowed with. This does not mean however that one has to be intellectual to be enlightened. The majority are not intellectual-inclined. There are many paths and as complementary to each other they cannot but all lead to the same destination. Paul Yu SpiritualityABC SpiritualityESOTERIC http://onelist.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-15/3407 From: Betty Norem Subject: Re: Greetings Hi Glenys - welcome back, we've missed you! Sorry about all your computer problems & hope they're solved this time. Love & Blessings, Betty Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3408 From: Rick Audette Subject: To Initiate "To discover the true meaning of becoming an initiate we must ask the question - What does it mean to initiate a thing?" "The power of initiation is neither good nor evil but is a little like money and can be used for either." "Hitler was an initiate and so was Abraham Lincoln." "How did these two men use the power of initiation, one for evil and the other for good?" The uninitiated might sense that something is missing and ask why. The initiate senses it and says why not and immediately sets out to find it. When the initiate sees that there is a job that needs to be done, he doesn't wait for the job to be assigned or look for someone else to do the job. He starts doing the job, himself and then others begin to follow his, now tangible, example. At a time when many were beginning to voice concerns about human bondage, Lincoln took the lead and showed us that a government and a nation did indeed have the power to eliminate it. At a time when the Germans were feeling inferior, many began to try to improve there image by downgrading other nationalities. Hitler jumped in and showed them that they could really stand out if they would actively pursue elimination of those they did not like. Each of these men gathered many followers, that were willing to give their lives for an ideal, because they showed that a thing could be done. When I first read "The Immortal", I asked JJ if there was a newsletter or mail list that I could subscribe to. He told me that nobody had had the time to yet. I took that to mean, that if somebody wanted to, they could, so I set out to find someone that knew how to do it and had the time to make the commitment. Right away, I asked myself, if this is what I want, why am I thinking of asking someone else to do it for me and just how much work was I hoping this other person would do. So, I started researching how to start a mail list, with the idea that I could, at least, provide that information to the person that wanted to do it. I was already on two lists, at Spiritweb, so I went there and found a form to fill out, to start a new list. I downloaded the form and found I could easily complete all of it except for the names of 10 people, who would be willing to join the new list. So I posted to the two lists and the very next day I had more than enough people. Within two weeks of reading the book, I ended up being the guy that started the Keys of Knowledge mail list (JJ provided the name). Now, after only four and one half months, we have grown to 160, world wide, of the nicest bunch of folks you could ever hope to meet and talk to. But it is all you guys that make it so great. All I really did was push the go button, somehow knowing, that it was so right that the whole thing would just start right up and run like the wind. Funny, all my life I was waiting for the right Guru to come along, give me some standard test, followed by an assignment and then I would be qualified to be an initiate, then my beloved teacher tells me I am initiating more than I know. So, does that mean I am officially recognized, by the Brothers, as an initiate. I don't think so. At least, nobody has spirited me away to a mystical retreat and offered me a diploma, yet. But that's okay, I've discovered that pushing buttons is pretty rewarding, in itself, and if I keep it up, maybe some night I close my eyes to say the song and open them to find myself saying it with a bunch of white robed dudes in Shambala or New Jerusalem. Won't that be a hoot? Are there people, in your part of the world, that need to learn the Keys of Knowledge? Who are you waiting for to teach them? Isn't there a button you could push, to help bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. My favorite expression lately is, "When do you think eternity will begin?". Two thousand years ago, a dozen people changed mankind. There are 160 of us, here. We can do so much more and we have the Age of Aquarius on our side. Lets get started, okay. One, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3409 From: Rick Audette Subject: Greetings Hi Glenys, Welcome back Sis. Do you need a fresh copy of my members list? Rick Audette ICQ 19753992 Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3410 From: Glenys Subject: Re: To Initiate Thanks so much for all the warm welcomes back - both on and off list. Rick is right - you're the nicest bunch of people on the Web. BTW, Rick, I was most impressed with the new and improved membership list - great for someone with nothing left in her address book :-) I quickly discarded all the superfluous emails that had accumulated while I was offline to concentrate on your pearls of wisdom and I particularly enjoyed the comments on initiation - there were such good thoughts. I haven't got a lot to add at this stage except for the following: J J Dewey wrote: "To discover the true meaning of becoming an initiate we must ask the question - What does it mean to initiate a thing?" "The power of initiation is neither good nor evil but is a little like money and can be used for either." "Hitler was an initiate and so was Abraham Lincoln." "How did these two men use the power of initiation, one for evil and the other for good?" My reading tells me that the word 'initiate' comes from the Latin words: 'in', into and 'ire' to go. Therefore, it means to make a beginning or to enter into something. While we tend to think of it in terms of increasing in spirituality or God consciousness, it has a wider meaning of an expansion of consciousness. This expansion is neutral in itself and we can choose how to use it - for evil such as Hitler did, or for good such as Lincoln. However, I would imagine that anyone who chooses to use her increased consciousness for evil would only be able to go so far before her ring-pass-not prevented further movement and stagnation took place until a decision was made to change course. This is because such a choice would involve a path of separation and selfishness which is contrary to natural and spiritual laws. Conversely, she who chooses the Path of Love could continue on the Path ad infinitum as it would be in harmony with all creation. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- We are symbols, and inhabit symbols. - Emerson Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3411 From: Lacey Subject: Re: The Initiate Date: J J Dewey wrote: "Question: What does it mean to become an initiate?" The accelerated confrontation of eternal doctrine or knowledge. ~Lacey Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3412 From: J J Dewey Subject: Who are the Initiates? Someone mentioned that the chicken has much more cause to fear man than the dog and this seems true, but consider this as a general rule: The more intelligent and the higher the ring-pass- not of the animal the less likely we are to eat them. When you think of it we do not eat animals for taste alone. Those who have eaten dogs, cats, horses and even humans have sometimes reported that the taste was excellent. Civilized humans tend to select animals to eat more because of their lower intelligence than because of taste alone. We are basically reluctant to eat an animal that has enough individuality to cause us to become attached to it. If a mere chicken were intelligent enough to endear itself to us we would be as reluctant to eat it as we would our favorite dog or cat. This I know from experience. When I was a young teenager shortly after my parents divorced, my mom bought a run down place in the country with chicken coops in the back so I decided to raise some chickens. I decided that I wanted to raise as interesting a bird as possible because I was doing it for a hobby as much as it was for fried chicken and eggs. Now my dad used to take me to fighting chicken matches and would always place some bets. Most of us realize today that this was a cruel sport because they attach steel spurs and the birds fight to the death. What made these special chickens different than regular chickens is that they would not quit in a fight but continue until one of them was dead or incapacitated. Even though I felt sorry for these chickens I noticed several things different about them. First was that determination to fight on no matter what. Secondly, they seemed a lot more intelligent than regular chickens and finally they were much more beautiful and colorful than any of the standard farm chickens. Well, when we got these empty chicken coops and I decided to put some chickens in them my mind reflected back to these beautiful birds. I decided I wanted to raise these, not to fight, but because they were a very high quality chicken. I found an old fighting chicken magazine my Dad left behind. This magazine advertised prized fighting chickens and also eggs from gamers around the country. I found an ad for eggs that interested me. I couldn't afford to buy the fully developed birds but I did have enough money to buy some eggs from a prizewinning line. They were supposed to be among the best chickens in the world. Even these eggs were expensive - about $10-$20 each by today's standards. I got a Banty hen to set on the eggs and in a few weeks I had the start of my fighting chicken farm. After a short period of time I had all the chickens I wanted but there was one in particular that caught my fancy. He was the prettiest rooster of them all and without question the toughest of the bunch. None of the other roosters dared challenge him. In addition he was the most intelligent and he was fearless. I spent many hours just watching him and showing him off to my friends. I grew as close to him over the next couple years as I have any dog. Finally one day I came home from school and found a trail of feathers from the chicken coop to a pond several blocks away. In the bushes there I found my prize rooster still alive but mortally wounded. There were several small boys nearby and I asked them if they saw what happened. Fortunately they had. Apparently a large dog attacked my chickens and my prize rooster defended the bunch by attacking the dog. He fought the dog all the way to the pond and never gave up. The dog finally gave up but the bulk of a forty pound dog was just too much for my two pound rooster and he was wounded beyond repair. It was one of the saddest days of my life when I had to end the little fellow's life. I couldn't believe how much I grew to love a mere chicken and how much I missed him. I still have feelings for him to this day. A point to be derived here is that because this chicken entered into my sphere of consciousness I would have no more dreamed of killing and eating him any more than I would my best friend. He did not fear me for he sensed there was no fear necessary. If a dog, a cat, a horse or even a chicken or a cow were to transcend regular consciousness he can endear himself to his master and come under the protection of the master rather than become a victim. In many ways we humans are in a similar situation to the animals. As we expand our ring-pass- not we catch the attention of the Masters, or the Brotherhood of Light, and certain entities among them will take us under their wings and nurture us. Several of you gave interesting comments on initiation. I was glad to see a new participant, Paul Yu, give intelligent comment on the first five initiations as recognized by the Brotherhood. Rick was probably closest to the actual answer I was looking for. An initiate is one who actually initiates something. In other words, an initiate has power to act on decisions made within himself instead of allowing himself to always be acted upon by the decisions of others. A second degree initiate has power to initiate with more far reaching effects than a first degree and a third degree has more far reaching power than a second degree and so on. If you read history and see the people who initiated the greatest change in the world you can then deduce the highest initiates among mankind. Jesus and Buddha initiated tremendous change and are therefore high initiates. On the non religious side so did George Washington and Thomas Edison. These were also initiates and they demonstrated thus because they initiate. Both the Dark Brothers and the Brotherhood of light follow the same path of initiation for a period of time, then they part their ways and follow two different paths, one initiating for evolution and life and the other for control and death. Let us now examine famous personalities throughout the world in our generation. Who are the initiates? See if you can name three and tell us what you think they initiated. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3413 From: xavier Subject: dogs and cats:) J J Dewey writes: "A dog may go through a door if all he has to do is push ahead, but it is beyond his consciousness to consider turning a door handle unless he has been extensively trained by a human, whereas a cat learns that easily by himself, just looking at you putting your hand on the handle.:) JJ: "To the dog the humans are Gods to be loved, but to the chicken we are overlords to be feared." X: very much like dark bros and white bros:) I guess you thought about it while writing. The eman that chooses the pah of service is like the dogs, and the one that chooses complete selfishness is like the chicken: funny, chicken is a symbol for cowardice. JJ: "The power of omnipresence" X: now what's that? Is it possible even to understand what it is like? To have you conscience stretch to all that is? JJ: "Becoming an initiate is an important series of steps in expanding the ring-pass-not. Yesterday we asked what an initiate was. Marilyn came the closest by stating: "To me, becoming an initiate means to be at the beginning of something new. Call it awakening, if you choose." This statement is on the right track, but let me add an additional hint. To discover the true meaning of becoming an initiate we must ask the question - What does it mean to initiate a thing? The power of initiation is neither good nor evil but is a little like money and can be used for either. Hitler was an initiate and so was Abraham Lincoln. How did these two men use the power of initiation, one for evil and the other for good? X: Uh oh, so you aim it towards beginning something new. A birth. The birth of Christ inside, the incarnation of the soul consciousness, uh? To initiate a thing is to begin it, that is to give birth to it, by dealing the first blow:) Like in I Ching, they insist very much on the beginning of a project, meaning that the first act is decisive to the whole life of the thing. Reminding that through initiation, the student is given extra conscience (expanding the ring pass not and available power), maybe is it extra decision power? With more conscience you have more decision and means to complete things. passing the ball to the next player...:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3414 From: xavier Subject: Re : To Initiate wow that's a great energy rolling by your side:) thanks for sharing:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3415 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re : To Initiate "xavier" writes: "wow that's a great energy rolling by your side:) thanks for sharing:)" (that was for Rick's message:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3416 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Who are the Initiates? JJ writes: "Let us now examine famous personalities throughout the world in our generation. Who are the initiates? See if you can name three and tell us what you think they initiated." Abraham Lincoln initiated a freedom for the black folks. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and a few others initiated freedom for the future United States by writing the Declaration of Independence. George Washington Carver initiated the continued use of peanuts by discovering how to extract oil from peanuts. Marylin PS: J. J. Dewey initiated this list for evolution and full consciousness by writing "The Immortal". Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3417 From: Robin Bryant Subject: Re: Who are the Initiates? Hi all, Tesla - Mechanics and uses of electricity. Einstein - Theory of relativity Madame Blavatsky - Leader of the Theosophy movement and channel for ascended masters. Robin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3418 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: Who are the Initiates? Bill Gates - Initiated the use of monopolistic powers to force people to use his software. ;) Princess Diana - Initiated the movement to abolish ground mines in the Mid-East. Ken Starr - Initiated the lengthy and costly Impeachment process against Clinton, sparking a political 'witch hunt' throughout Washington. Those are 3, I'm sure there are more. In fact, a couple months ago I watched a special on a man (a Priest) who put his life on the line to go out into the streets, and touch teens who were in gangs. He saved the lives of several teens, talking them in to leaving their gangs, and living a life of service. This is the kind of man I hope to be one day. Peace and Love, Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3419 From: J J Dewey Subject: Initiates Today Robin and Marylin correctly named initiates in the past, but it is more difficult to name the ones in the present because they are often controversial. Name three living initiates and tell us what they have (or are) initiating. JJ PS I must confess that this list would not have existed for some time without Rick acting his part as an initiate here. I did initiate the Immortal Book and certain teachings (with a little help). The most important "mission" that will tax all of our powers of initiation will be revealed shortly. Good comments Xavier on initiation. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3420 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Who are the Initiates? Martin Luther King Gandhi Bernadette Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3421 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Initiates Today J J Dewey wrote: "Robin and Marylin correctly named initiates in the past, but it is more difficult to name the ones in the present because they are often controversial." "Name three living initiates and tell us what they have (or are) initiating." How about Nelson Mandala - initiating unity and peace in the Rainbow nation. The Dalai Lama for bringing the fruits and Buddhism to the West and............ (scratching for a third) ............George Lucis :-) for the Star War trilogy, unsurpassed for using the mass media for opening us up to the concept of new possibilities. (Actually, I think he's dead, isn't he?) JJ, I assume you're only after 'good' initiators here? Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? - Huxley Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3422 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Initiates Today JJ writes: "Name three living initiates and tell us what they have (or are) initiating." Robert Dole who went to the Serb/Kosovo peace talks and initiated the first to want to sign the peace accord. (Sorry I have trouble with names sometimes.) Nixon initiated a peace agreement with China back in the 70s. Jimmy Carter initiated the move to save the hostages from Iran. I don't know if this counts or not, but I have initiated to prepare a plot of ground in the back yard for a first year veggie garden. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3423 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Initiates Today JJ asked: "Name three living initiates and tell us what they have (or are) initiating." I was also thinking about Nelson Mandela, mainly because he visited Ahtisaari, the president of Finland just a few days ago :) I would like to mention the dude(s) who invented the microchip, but I do not know the names nor if they're still alive, but boy did they initiate *a lot*! Just look at the world today! Like Robin, I was thinking about Tesla and Einstein, but of those who are still alive a name definitely worth mentioning is Stephen Hawking, who with his book A Brief History Of Time made many abstract subjects, black holes for example, more comprehensible and appealing to big masses. I have a lot of respect for anybody who makes you think Big :) Glenys, as far as I know, George Lucas is still very much alive and bringing us all kinds of futuristic goodies :) He's buddy Mr. Spielberg has also touched the hearts and minds of millions of people with his magnificent movies. I think many kinds of artists, musicians, directors etc. have the possibility to initiate many good things inside of anyone who let their art touch the soul. Mother Theresa was one of the names I was also thinking of, but she is also continuing her work on the other side already. Much love, Samu :) Ps. The one who invented rock'n'roll and loud electric guitars, you created a timeless monster, thanks big bunches! :D Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3424 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Initiates Today Bill Gates is one of my guesses as an initiator. Some people think of him as an antichrist but he's pretty much revolutionized the software industry, like him or hate him, he's made a difference. Bill Clinton would be another of my guesses. He has initiated some kind of loyalty among his followers that surpasses my understanding. People will give him more slack than they would another politician. On the more positive side I would have chosen King Hussein of Jordan for initiating peace in the Middle East while he was alive. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3425 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Initiations Initiation is a process. The purpose of this process is to awaken and expand the conscious awareness. Consciousness is defined as the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings. The thoughts, sensations, and quality of awareness of one's own being is dependent upon the definition of one's surroundings. Our surroundings are the world in which we live, what it is are composed of and from whence the world came. St. Paul defines this world in Acts 17:28 this way, "For in him we live, and move, and have our being." The idea that we live, and move, and have our being in the creator is one of the seven hermetic principles. This principle states that the concrete reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know as the material universe, the phenomena of life, matter, and energy, is Spirit, which is infinite living mind. Thus we can best understand the words man and woman as being abbreviations of the word manifestation. Spirit fell into manifestation to gain control of it. Upon entering the veil of materiality the spirit had only five avenues (the senses) through which it was able to function. The indwelling spirit fell into the sleep of materiality. The act or process of the spirit awakening to its divine heritage is initiation. Through the process of initiation the spirit learns the art of self transformation which is referred to as alchemy. Each degree of initiation awakens the sleeping spirit to the concrete reality of its true identity. The Awakening of the human Consciousness to God-Realization- as the Awakening of the seed below the earth--begins below the level of conscious awareness. It stirs deep down in the subconscious realms of the mind and being just as, while we still sleep, towards morning, certain sounds or movements bring us almost Awake, yet, drowsiness holds a curtain about us. It may be hard to topple out of bed; but once out, we begin to bloom as the fragrant rose in the early morning Sun. Birds begin to sing in the flowering trees, and we come outside to breathe the wonderful scent, and yawn, and breathe deeply to take in more of the oxygen of God's own Life- breathe which is the pure air. As the animal--having spent the winter in gestation--comes forth from the womb to frolic on the spring meadows, as the seed unfurls its embryo to push up and show itself above ground, as the baby bird pecks its way out of the enclosing shell, so does, the locked-in Spirit burst its bonds as the solar energies within get rid of impurities and so one opens the eyes to the true nature of one's own being. "Sleep", says the dictionary, "is a state of reduced physical and nervous activity, accompanied by suspension of voluntary movements, and a complete or partial unconsciousness; to be dormant; inactive." "Wake", is to emerge from sleep to become active or alert after being inactive or dormant; to keep watch or guard at nights, to rouse, stir up, excite." All the waking of earth corresponds to the timing of the Sun, so does the waking of the Spirit of man and woman correspond to the coming of the Christ consciousness into being. This is the eternal journey of rebirth. From ancient of days the initiatory schools have passed face to face this eternal unfolding of the soul. Though all schools have used rituals through- out the initiatory process, these rituals are not the initiations, but celebrations of the soul's growth into the initiations. Isaiah said: "Thy dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. O Dwellers in the dust, awaken and sing for Joy! For thy dew is a dew of light, and on the land of the shades, thou wilt let it fall." In Thessalonians 5:4-10, Paul wrote: "But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day: we are not of the night or of darkness." Quoted from M. Timothy Harris The Gnostic Order of Christ My friend. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3426 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Initiates Today LIVING INITIATES Most of the ones I was thinking of, have been named already. A couple of Keysters have also been mentioned, but let us not forget, Rene Mueller- founder and webmaster of Spiritweb Still thinking, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3427 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Re: Initiates Today Sai Baba must surely be an initiate of today - teaching love and care for each others. I think he is showing many people a way to God these days. Saddam Hussein is also an initiate I think - although a black one. I am not really sure what he initiates, but he certainly cares more about his own ego than about the people of Iraq. The Beatles were initiates who gave us a whole new tradition of music. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3428 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Sorry Sorry folks I forgot to sign my letter - I must be falling asleep :-))) Here it is: Love, light and power to all of you - I am so happy you are out there Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3429 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Initiates Today Anni wrote: "The Beatles were initiates who gave us a whole new tradition of music." YES!!! Beatles is thee morther/father of All Bands!!! :D They were so totally fresh and inventive, changed music for-ever! Initiates Big Time :) ^S^ Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3430 From: Jennifer Hampson Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-03-16 of The Keys of Knowledge List To me, initiation has something of the quality of leaping into the unknown rather than beginning something new in a gradual, step-by-step fashion based on the empirical evidence of what has gone before. Is an initiate one who is willing to jump (decide, attend, place consciousness) outside their ring-pass-not without knowing exactly what lies ahead, exercising faith and trust, in their willingness to let go the security of what they already know and have? To risk it for what they might become? Guillaume Apollinaire's words come to mind.... "Come to the edge" he said. They were afraid. "Come to the edge" he said. They came, he pushed them and they flew. Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3431 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Initiates Today Samu writes: "The Beatles were initiates who gave us a whole new tradition of music." YES!!! Beatles is the mother/father of All Bands!!! :D They were so totally fresh and inventive, changed music for-ever! Initiates Big Time :) ELVIS Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3432 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Initiates Today Like Anni, Samu and Lelona, I was thinking John, Paul, George and Ringo before I read their posts. They made us think. "All we are saying is give peace a chance" and on and on and on. I remember as a child of 9, in 1968, arguing with my ex Marine Dad about the Vietnam war. I told him that if I were an 18 year old male that he could come visit me in Canada too. Somehow I just knew it was wrong. I think history has proven me right (don't you just love the understatement in that? :) Spielberg is one as far as I'm concerned. He turned my Dad and my Uncle into heroes for me with "Saving Private Ryan." He brings the past to life. He is a story telling initiate, I think. And don't laugh, but I'd have to put Oprah on the list. She initiated making it okay to admit publicly things like the rape she suffered, having a child as a young girl, using cocaine in her twenties. She has made being human an okay thing to be. We are all human and all make mistakes, but no one has made that more okay in our time than Oprah. Just my humble opinion. I start a new job tomorrow folks, so wish me luck (by the way, the best things have happened to me since I've met you all - did I mention that the last cigarette I had was on February 15? I was a nightmare to be around for a while, but that's past, thank you God!). Anyway, I have to run and catch up on e-mails! Bye for now! Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3433 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Initiates Today Hi Tracey, Everyone, Tracey Hobson wrote: "Spielberg is one as far as I'm concerned. He turned my Dad and my Uncle into heroes for me with "Saving Private Ryan." He brings the past to life. He is a story telling initiate, I think." Yes, he is a real talent and I was sad to read that he's retiring, although I'll believe it when I see it :-) "And don't laugh, but I'd have to put Oprah on the list. She initiated making it okay to admit publicly things like the rape she suffered, having a child as a young girl, using cocaine in her twenties. She has made being human an okay thing to be. We are all human and all make mistakes, but no one has made that more okay in our time than Oprah. Just my humble opinion." I agree that Oprah has given the world a special gift. In the early days of her show she tended to focus on sensationalism and voyeuristic human dramas with graphic displays of emotionalism on her shows that astonished and amused us somewhat reserved Colonials here in NZ. I read an article a short time ago where she said that one of her shows had a husband telling his wife on TV that his lover was having his baby. Oprah said that she would never forget the look of pain on the wife's face and she resolved then to get out of that kind of 'entertainment'. And she was true to her word, developing her 'Remembering Your Spirit' themes. I've seen a few of these shows lately and have been impressed and moved at what she achieves in terms of empowering others. She has really come of age and offers a great service to those who are fortunate enough to catch her shows. "I start a new job tomorrow folks, so wish me luck (by the way, the best things have happened to me since I've met you all - did I mention that the last cigarette I had was on February 15? I was a nightmare to be around for a while, but that's past, thank you God!). Anyway, I have to run and catch up on e-mails! Bye for now!" Holy smoke!!! :-) Good for you, Tracey and best wishes for the new beginning. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= My heart trembles like a poor leaf. The planets whirl in my dreams. The stars press against my window. I rotate in my sleep. My bed is a warm planet. - Marvin Mercer Fifth Grade, Harlem, New York City, N.Y. (1981) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3434 From: Robin Bryant Subject: Re: Initiates Today "LIVING INITIATES" Did someone mention JJ? We all know what he initiated!! And how about Netanyahu in Israel. He certainly has had a major role in political events in that area. The Moody Blues - Their style of music and the ways of thinking they sang about initiated a new level of "going beyond" the norm for the people of my age group. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-16/3435 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Initiates Today Sometimes an initiate will choose the road less traveled. To set an example of righteous living is apparently noble, to all. But, what about those that choose to live differently than the status quo, to march to the beat of a different drummer. Those that live on the fringe will always have lots of loony neighbors, but in time, the masses stop fearing and come to be more tolerant and accepting of their brothers and sisters that are a little different than themselves. The long haired hippies, of the sixties, were quite a freak show, to the older generation, but thirty years later, much of their ideals have become mainstream. They helped usher in the Age of Aquarius, with ideas of peace, love, save the planet, tune in, eat healthy. Health food stores, these days are whole supermarkets, where I live. There are many books stores devoted to book on higher consciousness and you can buy incense and candles in any mall in America. Because some individuals choose to live their life openly and honestly, often at a great cost to themselves, the world, as a whole, slowly becomes more tolerant of those that aren't the same as themselves. If a person was gay or lesbian, thirty years ago, their whole life could be ruined if people found out. Today, we look down on the ignorant man, who is still homophobic. Today, many aggree that the Beatles were th greatest band, ever. That's not how it was in 1960 though. Mother Teresa and Jimmy Carter and the rest are obvious great initiates, but let's remember the Rue Pauls and Dennis Rodmans, who in their own, off-beat way, are helping to make this a better world for all. I think there are more than a few ex-freaks on this list, ay. An initiate isn't scared to be different. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3436 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Initiates Today Rick Audette wrote: "I think there are more than a few ex-freaks on this list," Whaddya mean EX!! "she said ignoring the constant tic in her eye as she wiped the dribble from her chin" "An initiate isn't scared to be different." You are so right, Rick. They are invariably prophets without honour. I was only reading the following excerpt from the book "Initiation: Human and Solar' by Alice Bailey last night about this very topic: 'The Path of Discipleship is a difficult one to tread, the Path of Initiation harder still; an initiate is but a battle- scarred warrior, the victor in many a hard-won fight; he speaks not of his achievements, for he is too busy with the great work in hand; he makes no reference to himself or to all that he has accomplished, save to deprecate the little-ness of what has been done. Nevertheless, to the world he is ever a man of large influence, the wielder of spiritual power, the embodier of ideals, the worker for humanity who unfailingly brings results which succeeding generation will recognise. He is one who, in spite of all this great achievement, is seldom understood by his own generation. He is frequently the butt of men's tongues, and frequently all that he does is misinterpreted; he lays his all - time, money, influence, reputation, and all that the world con-siders worth while-upon the altar of altruistic service, and frequently offers his life as a final gift, only to find that those whom he has served throw his gift back to him, scorn his renunciation, and label him with unsavory names. But the initiate cares not, for his is the privilege to see somewhat into the future and therefore he realises that the force he has generated will in due course of time bring to fulfillment the plan............' Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= My heart trembles like a poor leaf. The planets whirl in my dreams. The stars press against my window. I rotate in my sleep. My bed is a warm planet. - Marvin Mercer Fifth Grade, Harlem, New York City, N.Y. (1981) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3437 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Happy St Patrick's Day Everyone (or any excuse for a joke) THE DRINKER An Irishman was drinking at the pub all night. The bartender came up to him and told him that the bar was closing. So the Irishman stood up to leave and fell flat on his face. He tried to stand up one more time with the same result. So he figured he'd just crawl outside, hang out for a while, get some fresh air and hopefully that would sober him up. Once outside he stood up and fell again -- right on his face. So he decided to crawl the 4 blocks to his home and when he arrived at the door he tried one more time with the same results. Exhausted, he then gave up and started crawling to the bedroom. When he reached his bed he tried one more time to stand up. This time he managed to pull himself upright but he quickly fell right into the bed and fell sound asleep as soon as his head hit the pillow. The next morning, he woke up with his wife standing over hi shouting at him. "So, you've been out drinking again!!" "What makes you say that?" He asked as he put on an innocent look. "The pub called, you left your wheelchair there again." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, May the rain fall soft upon your fields, And, until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of your hand. ~ Irish Blessing Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3438 From: Mrs H schwebel- Knight Subject: name an initiate Hi all, referring to "initiate" in this context, we are all "initiates", as all beings whether consciously 'on the path' or not as we encounter each other we stir new ideas, thoughts, awakenings in each other. As all beings walk the earth as masters, whether 'realised' or not. Is it not the realising of who we really are (true sons & daughters of God) that brings us into the "Initiation" therefore becoming the 'Initiate".? Light & Love Heather. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3439 From: Lisa Folk Subject: Keysters site updated and needs your help One of the hardest things for me to do is ask for help but getting the archives on the Keyster Website up to date is just about more than one person can handle. The archives are ready to be finished and I was wondering if any of you would be willing to help? If anyone would like to help they can go to the instructions page and find out what to do and how to do it. If you can type a letter you can help. Also check out the home page at http://www.naturalfolks.com/keys/ so you can see what's new. The Members page at http://www.naturalfolks.com/keys/members.htm has been added to. Many of you are missing and some have incomplete information. If you could look and see what's there then, let me know what's needed I'd greatly appreciate it. This site is for all of us and it can only be as good as we make it. So get your ideas going and let me know what you'd like to see. Thanks a lot Your Friend Lisa Natural Folks Ent. Ltd. Lisa Folk Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3440 From: Lisa Folk Subject: Instruction Page Address I guess this might help! http://www.naturalfolks.com/keys/Collective%20Page.htm Natural Folks Ent. Ltd. Lisa Folk Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3441 From: J J Dewey Subject: Initiates Revealed We have been discussing the definition of the initiate from a different angle than that which has been taught by many teachers in the past. Generally initiation has been presented as some type of learning and testing the student goes through until he reaches a certain state of knowledge or performance standard. When he then reaches a certain level he is accepted or "initiated" into the group or organization. From the viewpoint of the Brotherhood of Light the initiate is expected to do more than just learn a few rules and simply follow them. He or she is expected to initiate through his own initiative as a demonstration of expansion of his ring-pass-not or consciousness. Therefore, a new (yet old) meaning is given to the term which shall gain new meaning as we enter the age of Aquarius. THE INITIATE INITIATES. The ultimate test of the initiate is to look into his life and see if he has initiated or assisted in the initiation of anything. Sometimes an accomplishment is largely attributed to one initiate (like Edison inventing the light bulb) and sometimes a group of initiates are involved as in the case of a number of intelligent people involved in the founding of the United States. But the rule is this. If a person makes some claim to be an initiate he must be involved in initiating something larger than self-interest and something larger than the parameters of his current job description. If you meet a teacher who claims to be the greatest thing since Cornflakes just ask him what he has initiated. He, of course, plans on single-handedly inaugurating the Aquarian age, but saying such means very little with no accomplishment to show for himself. Now let us briefly review the names of possible initiates that the group has put forward. First music: I think we can all agree that the Beatles were the most powerful initiating musical group of all time. They not only initiated a change in music and the group concept in bands, but they initiated a change in hairstyle, dress and even introduced meditation to the Western world. They were also a strong force in initiating the peace movement in the Sixties. Did you notice though that after the death of John Lennon that none of the surviving Beatles have initiated anything of significance? This is a testimony to the fact that Lennon was probably the initiating force within the group. Elvis and Sanatra were two other initiates in the business. Whoever initiated rap (for better or worse) would also have been an initiate. I am not sure who that would be though. You mentioned the hippies initiating the peace movement, health foods, drugs, colorful dress... This would be an example of a group of initiates. During that period it was difficult to tell which individuals were responsible for the dramatic change that was happening. For teachers you mentioned H P Blavatsky. Yes, she initiated the Theosophical Society. Sai Baba - I'm not sure about him. Did he initiate anything new? The Dalai Lama - I'm not familiar with him doing any more than his expected job. Mother Teresa - Yes. She did initiate a movement to help the poor in India. Alice A. Bailey initiated a new set of teachings for the new age is another good one. The founder(s) of any worldwide religious, philosophical or new age movement is an initiate of a certain degree. I'm sure Rene Mueller- founder and webmaster of Spiritweb would be an initiate of some degree. In entertainment you mention George Lucas, Spielberg and Ophra. Even though Spielberg is the most successful Lucas was the most powerful initiate. He introduced esoteric principles in a way that permeated the general consciousness of humanity and did much to prepare the current generation for Aquarian teachings. He introduced the "Force" which is a symbol of the universal presence of God. He introduced the concept of the Masters by presenting the idea of a Jedi master such as Yoda. He also introduced the concept of obtaining power by tuning into the power within. These ideas may seem simple to student of metaphysics, but it takes a powerful initiate to introduce them in an acceptable way to common humanity. You mentioned Bill Gates, but he did more copying than initiating. A greater initiate in this area was Steve Jobs. Jobs was the first to actually introduce the PC in a marketable fashion. Also almost every concept in Windows 95 and 98 was incorporated into the early Macs. Jobs initiated, Gates carried the ball. For scientific initiates you mention Tesla, Einstein and Hawking. I agree and the reason should be obvious. Hawking, who I believe to be a reincarnation of Galileo, has also initiated greater respect for people with handicaps such as himself. The reason for his illness is traced back to guilt caused by Galileo's denial of his discoveries because of threats from the church in that dark period. For political initiates you mention Netenyahu of Israel. To some degree he may be. Nelson Mandela Definitely initiated changes in South Africa after a long struggle. Robert Dole - not a significant initiate, but has dome some things. Nixon - definitely initiated open relations with China which has had a powerful effect. Jimmy Carter - Was going to make public information on UFO's but never did. That would have been a mark of an initiate. He did initiate a peace accord at Camp David for the Middle East. Tried to free the hostages, but failed so that wouldn't count. Carter may just be the first to initiate a useful life for an ex President. This may be his greatest accomplishment. Ken Starr - Starr really didn't initiate much. He was given a job to do and he carried it out. Doing a job assigned to you is not initiating unless you go beyond your job description in a way that creates great change. Starr was accused of doing this, but overall he was a pretty standard prosecutor. Starr's tactics are pretty universally used by prosecutors everywhere. Martin Luther King Initiated a whole new era for blacks. A strong initiate for civil rights quoted by all races. Bill Clinton. Attempted to initiate health care reform but failed He did initiate some trade reform. Many of the things he claims credit for were initiated by someone else. He basically tries to follow the polls whereas the initiate follows inspiration from within. On the negative side he has caused changes that many people feel have hurt the country. Perhaps the worst is the idea that everybody lies and that a certain amount of lying is OK. This is a very detrimental concept. I will continue this article in my next post. Meanwhile this idea is a good question to leave you with. Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when? JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3442 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Initiates Today Glenys Lowery writes: "How about Nelson Mandala" yep, and Mikhael Gorbatchev too, though he may be past now. Can't we find initiates in a more conventional politic side? Like a president, a politic? Yep: those jews-arabs peace makers. Shimon Perez, Itzhac Rabin, etc..Yasser Arafat. How can you be a president if you're not an initiate? Where will you find the power to achieve? Thinking about it, the "bad guy" Saddam Hussein! Or Kadhafi. Where are they in the scheme of things? Aren't we much deluded by the medias in accepting what interests the powers that be, and thus seeing them as demons? Yes it's easy to see that Churchill had to be a big one. But to see the ones at work today...and in our countries.. I'm sure our actual french president is not much of a big man, but the former one had true power, even his adversaries acknowledge that he outwitted them all in politics :D BTW I dreamed of him two times, and he was some kind of a good authority. Makes me think of another one I dreamed of, and I'm sure she's a true initiate. Yep, I got one for sure, there. Francoise Dolto, maybe you don't know her, she was (sorry she's dead, doesn't count now;)) a psychoanalyst that was decades ahead of her time and she deeply made psychoanalysis evolve, especially towards children. She is the reference today:) She had a true contact with people, she had been a psychotic at adolescence:) I never liked psychoanalysis in general BTW, but I just love her, you should just see her speak:) see ya:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3443 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Initiates Today Rick Audette writes: "I think there are more than a few ex-freaks on this list, ay. An initiate isn't scared to be different." I am another who has spent a lifetime living on the fringe of accepted societal thinking. I currently live in a household of 5 but 4 want nothing to do with one's way of thinking. Talk about a lesson in patience. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3444 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Initiates Today Glenys writes: "But the initiate cares not, for his is the privilege to see somewhat into the future and therefore he realises that the force he has generated will in due course of time bring to fulfillment the plan............'" Hi Glenys You sent this in the nick of time for me. the whole message has rung loud and clear. It's like a "good stroke" for me. Thanks much. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3445 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Initiates Today Rick wrote: "I think there are more than a few ex-freaks on this list, ay. An initiate isn't scared to be different." You're so right Bro! :) An initiate isn't scared to be different, which comes from his fearlessness of being himself. I have a lot of respect for people who show other's that the best thing to do is fully being themselves, selflessly and without using their 'difference' to get other's attention. Those who carry the vibe of expressing their uniqueness will initiate the same in other's who are ready to take the step. So many are afraid of expressing what's inside because the world today tries to make us fit in one mould, but if we all were being 100% who we are at this point on the journey, we'd really create a beautiful strong whole. God has worn many clothes and smiled thru myriad of faces throughout history, as well as in the present. Us being created in One's image, why would be any different in our diversity? It's the people most 'out there' who are pushing the boundaries of their ring-pass-not, and if their ideas are revolutionary and 'right' enough, they will initiate a big change in the mass consciousness. Most of the biggest initiates of their times have looked ridiculous with their futuristic ideas, and have often been laughed at. Until in time, rest of the folks have grasped what these pioneers were really talking about :) Laughter is subsided by grateful admiration and respect, and we as One progress on, just as it is meant to be :) Makes me so glad to see the list this active, and is great having so many new Keysters posting! Love to hear your thoughts and ideas :) Tracey, best of luck with your new job, I am also wishing the best of smoke-free futures! Freakishly fine, Samu :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3446 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed J J Dewey wrote: "Meanwhile this idea is a good question to leave you with. Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when?" Hi Folks! I'm still in the midst of my little move, but still hanging in there. I wanted to add my appreciation for all of those who are posting to the list, both new and old. You are using your gift when you share your knowledge. On the question of always telling the truth, in general, the answer is yes. I say in general because there are times when openly declaring the truth would only serve to overburden the unenlightened and cause them to slip deeper into their darkness. But this doesn't mean that lies are appropriate at any time. Interestingly, I have been meditating on the concept of total honesty and what that might look like on a world wide scale. Or how that works in the spiritual realm. The answer I "heard" was enlightening. The basic understanding that I was given says that within the world of the absolute, all is already known by all, because all are one. In this state, nothing is held back, because everything is already known. Conversely, in this world, as it has been, people are MOSTLY blind to the whole truth. For instance, a person might know that Jesus turned water into wine. Now if that was the limit of this person's truth, they would think that Jesus was wine maker, or a magician, and their understanding would be limited to that one interpretation of the one truth. Or if they heard He drove out the money changers, they might consider that He was a violent radical. In this way, you can see the danger of telling the "truth" to those who by their limited capacity would only serve to misinterpret what they have heard. Jesus himself is recorded as saying, don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot, then turn to devour you. Very interesting. He doesn't suggest a lie, but suggests withholding your knowledge from those who would not understand, and worse yet, would use the information to further their own darkness. Then there are examples from the old testament of some rather creative handling of the "truth. One I remember has God speaking to Samuel the priest. Here God instructs Samuel to go and anoint David to be the next king of Israel. But Samuel was afraid of Saul, the reigning king, that he would have Samuel killed if he knew that he was going to anoint a new king. Very interesting here, God does not tell Samuel to go shouting in the streets the truth of his mission, because he was right, Saul would have had him killed. Instead, God tells Samuel to take with him an animal offering. Then if anyone asked Samuel where he was going, Samuel was to answer, I'm going to offer this sacrifice. And he did take the offering with him. And he did make that sacrifice. But he withheld the "whole" truth to those who asked, so that the purpose of God might be carried out. The difference between total honesty in this world, and total knowing within the absolute, is that within the absolute, every single detail of any given truth is known completely. Like in that realm, Saul would have known that Samuel was going to anoint a new king, but he would also KNOW that Samuel was carrying out God's instructions. In this kind of total knowing, no harm would have been perpetrated on Samuel because the "full" knowing of Saul would give him the understanding to realize that this was the will of the all and that it would be for the best. Then all would be praised by God, and all things would be visibly working together for the good. The short answer then is that to be a person of truth, one must merely live truthfully. This person may never tell a lie, but they realize that they are under no obligation to share any truth, especially to those who by virtue of their ignorance would use that truth to darken their own path and the paths of many. Light and Love to you Folks, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3447 From: xavier Subject: Re : Initiates Revealed J J Dewey writes: "Meanwhile this idea is a good question to leave you with. Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when?" beware, it's long, and ego-driven.) I instinctively have always been a full believer in truth saying, feeling, showing. This is a recurring question: "all truths aren't good to say" we say in France. In fact, people suffer much more from secret than plain truth-saying. In medicine there is change in that matter. Years ago it was a general agreement that it was wiser not to tell the truth about an illness in many cases. Today (at least in the medias) it shows that medics realized that to say the truth is most of the time the best option, the one that will create the less harm. In fact, what harms is not the truth, it's the way it is served, given. The truth is a pain for the one that has to say it, yes, but it is a good thing for the one that needs to know. In which cases is it wise to say the truth? Well, it has to be useful. Adapted to the situation. It has to be an urge from your honesty and consciousness, a service to others. It shouldn't be tainted by personal emotions or interests. When is it best to lie? I dunno:) I'm sure there is plenty, but I don't Think about it, it comes naturally. Is it lying? No, I'm talking about not saying all the truth you know. I guess that plain lying can always be avoided, and should, as it breaks the truth inside of you. I distinctly feel the break that it makes in some plane when i feel like lying, and sometimes do it. Now there may be some special situations when lying is good. If it helps, if it serves, let's lie:) In some conflicts, it may be much wise to lie. Emotionally speaking, lying can be the only way to answer a trap. Once my mother said to me "you, you never help anyone" one day she wanted to manipulate me in carrying what another parent had manipulated her into carrying. The answer that came to me was "no", meaning "yes, i never help anyone", because if i said, "no, i usually help", i would have fallen in her trap. Thinking about it, i was saved from lying by providence too, because my "no" could also mean "no, it's not true that i never help anyone". Anyway, it ended the blackmail right away, and i had a good laugh, and days after she told me i was right. She just was plain desperate to have committed in what she did not desire, because of others' pressure, and needed to push me into it in her place in order to feel better. I see i'm in my ego-mode, must be my regular energy, that this spirit list reveals very well:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3448 From: John Kosior Subject: [NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO] (OT) Just thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to read and consider this news concerning the NEA, and NPR. I've added my name to the following list because I agree that NPR should continue to have it's funding. If you find you agree, please add your name to this list and forward it to others. Thanks Folks! John ************* Subject: NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 6:53 PM PLEASE SUPPORT NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO On NPR Morning Edition this morning,(March 13th 1999) Nina Totenberg said that if the Supreme Court supports Congress in its budget cuts of the NEA, it is in effect the end of NEA. The NPR/NEA & PBS. PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year. A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations committees each have 13 subcommittees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1. The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices heard. If we only have the NETWORKS giving us THEIR news we will never hear about genetically- engineered foods, pesticides, herbicides, bovine-growth hormone, terminator genes for seeds, vaccination side effects, attempts to end organic standards=85please add to this paragraph. Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends who believe in what this stands for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs. This petition is being passed around the internet. Please add your name to it so that funding can be maintained for the NEA, NPR & PBS. Please keep this petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Please sign and forward to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign please send to the e-mail address indicated. This is being forwarded to several people at once to add their names to the petition. It won't matter if many people receive the same list as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure of $1.12/year of their taxes, a petition follows. If you sign, please forward on to others. If not, please don't kill it - send it to the email address listed here: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu or kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu ****If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th,etc. signer of this petition, please forward a copy to: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. Forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep these programs alive. Thank you. NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT the then COPY it into a new outgoing message, rather than simply forwarding it. In your new outgoing message, add your name to the bottom of the list, then send it on. Or if option is available, do a SEND AGAIN. AT 800 send to wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu and start a new petition at 801. 651) Andrea Wickham, New York, NY 652) Jessica Wickham, Brooklyn, NY 653) Mary H. Lorimer, W Long Branch, NJ 654) Janis Jolcuvar, Santa Monica, CA 655) Nancy A. Kist, Jersey City, NJ 656) Bruce T. Herbert, Seattle, WA 657) Anne Albritton, Madrid, Spain 658) Richard Stephens, Madrid, Spain 659) Jonathan Forgash, NYC, NY 660) Barbara Glaser, Austin, TX 661) Jim Blomquist, Chicago, IL 662) Amy Rechenmacher, Evanston, IL 663) Jayne Flores, Agana, Guam 664) Jim Renza 665) Ramon A Noya, Atlanta, GA 666) Visitacion A Noya, Atlanta, GA 667) Geoff Baker, Atlanta, GA 668) Richard Gann, Atlanta, GA 669) Anthony Thompson, LA, CA 670) Carol Cetrone, LA, CA 671) Debra Spinelli LA, CA 672) Rika Ohara, Los Angeles, CA 673) Alan Rich, Los Angeles, CA 674) Tina Pelikan, New York, NY 675) Juan Gomez, Los Angeles, CA 676) Fredrik Nilsen, Los Angeles, CA 677) Jackie Sharp, Los Angeles, CA 678) Kathleen Frasca, Burbank, CA. 679) Ilayne Lucas, Burbank, CA 689) Thomas Lucas, Burbank. CA 690) Abbe Kanter Jaye, Van Nuys, CA 691) Billie Shane, Los Angeles, CA 692) Frank Chindamo, L.A., CA 693) Erik Liberman, LA, CA 694) Jacob Liberman, Basalt, CO 695) Marsha Boros, Coral Springs, FL 696) Gina Liberman, San Francisco, CA 697) Sharon Scruggs, NYC, NY 698)Steven Skybell, NYC, NY 699) Joseph Skibell, Austin, TX 700) Barbara Freer Skibell, Austin TX 701) Kerry Fried, Seattle, WA 702) Kimberly Burns, West Hollywood, CA 703) Howard Tharsing, San Francisco, CA 705) Brian Basinger, San Francisco, CA 706) David Murray, Chicago, IL 707) James E. McPherson, Chicago, IL 708) Katherine W. Laughlin, Seattle, WA 709) Timothy L. Murray, Seattle, WA 710) Beth Moore Haines, Nevada City, CA 711) Eric Salzman, Brooklyn & East Quogue NY 712) Kevin Guess, Houston, TX 713) David Gompper, Iowa City, IA 714) Ching-chu Hu, Ann Arbor, MI 715) David Maki, Ann Arbor, MI 716) David G. Stevens, East Islip, NY 717)Rebecca Korn, East Meadow, NY 718) John McNeur, Glen Head, NY 719) Michael Salzman, Plainview, NY 720) Frank Cassara, NY, NY 721) Dean Drummond, Upper Nyack, NY 722) Patricia Spencer, New York, NY 723) Ardith Bondi, New York, NY 724) Yeou-Cheng Ma, Fresh Meadows, NY 725) Michael Dadap, Fresh Meadows, NY 726) Helaine Fiedler, Douglaston, NY 727) Merrilee Fiedler, New York, NY 728) Jeanne Chin, New York, NY 729) Ben Berry, New York, NY 730) Pam Coar, North Babylon, NY 731) Marie Ingellis, East Northport, NY 732) Alice Cavanagh, Binghamton, NY 734) Joseph Andrews, Endicott, NY 735) Amy Short, Vestal, NY 736) Michael Davis, New York, NY 737) Jim Walsh, Binghamton, NY 738) Zachary Roberts, Binghamton, NY 739) Dave Siegel, Palo Alto, CA 740) Stephanie Tuerk, Stanford, CA 741) Jeanne S. Tuerk, Annapolis, MD 742) Carl E. Tuerk, Jr. , Annapolis, Md 743) Ivan Rubin, Brooklyn, NY 744) Maryann H. Long , Summit, NJ 745) Pat Weeden, Oergon, WI 746) Tracey Nelson, Oregon, WI 747) Alanna Nelson, Brodhead, WI 748) Mourad Chaouch, Brodhead, WI 749) Diane Epstein, Tiburon, CA 750) Alan Epstein, Tiburon, CA 751) Frank Avruch,Newton, MA 752) Betty Avruch,Newton,MA 753) Thomas J. Cottle,BROOKLINE, MA 754) Kay Cottle, BROOKLINE, MA 755) LANE K. CONN, WEST NEWTON, MA 756) Sarah A. Conn, West Newton, MA 757) Patricia Morgan, Oregon City, OR 758) Lloyd Marbet, Boring, OR 759) Lynn Sims, Portland, OR 760) Will O'Bryan, Portland, OR 761) Rupert Kinnard 762) Tim Miller 763) W. James Richards, Knoxville, TN 764) Dale Goins, Knoxville, TN 765) Jane Carter, Columbus, OH 766) Arline McCarthy, Athens, OH 767) Cliff McCarthy, Athens, OH 768) Joyce Richardson, Athens, OH 769) Phil Richardson, Athens, OH 770) Becky Ramsay, Ellijay, GA 771) Christopher Rose, Chicago, IL 772) Gladys Chmiel, Brookfield, WI 773) Tony Clements, Milwaukee, WI 774)Gary Briggle,Mpls,MN 775)Wendy Lehr, Mpls,MN 776)Jarrod Cafaro,NYC = 777)Jim Dulaney 778) Nomi Tichman, NYC 779) R.R. Galgano, NYC 780) E.A. Soychak, Hoboken, NJ 781) M. Hilgers, Hoboken, NJ 782) Tim Good, Elmhurst, IL 783) Jeff Leonard, Acton, MA 784) Stephen Cooley, Arlington, MA 785) Heather Holden, Northport, NY 786) David Garcia, San Antonio, TX 787) Laura Strand, Los Angeles, CA 788) Norma Wilson, Corvallis, OR 789) Jason Duckles, West Hartford, CT 790) Mary T Wang, Bloomfield, CT = 791) Noemi E. Masliah, New York, NY 792) Jayne B. Sherman, New York, NY 793) Carolyn F. A. Dean, New York, NY 794) Delia Quigley, Newton, NJ 795) Carol F. Mosley, Hampton, FL 796) Gregory Diaz, Miami, F Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3449 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed Hi John, It seems unfair to snip so much of your very thoughtful post but I got down to your short answer and it seems to sum up what I believe too bu you said it so very well. love and light to all, Diane John K wrote: Snip: "The short answer then is that to be a person of truth, one must merely live truthfully. This person may never tell a lie, but they realize that they are under no obligation to share any truth, especially to those who by virtue of their ignorance would use that truth to darken their own path and the paths of many." Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3450 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Telling the truth John, I agree with your interpretation of the question regarding telling the truth, is whole truth the only truth? When my children were very small and wanted to know "where did I come from?" Instead of going deeply into the reproductive process, I told them "from mommy's tummy", this answered their question at that time, as they grew so did their thinking process and their questions became deeper, as did my answer's, so until the questioner becomes ready for the whole truth, I feel we must answer the question asked, if more information is desired it will be asked for. Love & blessings to all, Sharon & Richard Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3451 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed JJ writes: "Meanwhile this idea is a good question to leave you with. Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when?" I have always considered a lie the same as a falsehood and while I have been guilty of such, I now would rather take the anger and name calling from others than say something that is against my ultimate goal. However, it is sometimes necessary to "soften a blow" and let questions be asked of one rather than blurting out the whole thing whatever it is. I guess it depends on the situation and who one is talking with. Man or man, this is a hard one, Joe. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3452 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed J J Dewey wrote: "Sai Baba - I'm not sure about him. Did he initiate anything new? I'm always amazed at the following he has and think I must be missing something. The Dalai Lama - I'm not familiar with him doing any more than his expected job." The reason I chose him was that he brought Buddhism to the West and made the plight of the Tibetan people well known. I think that's outside his job description when compared to other Dalai Lamas. It's been an interesting discussion. Thanks JJ :) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= So I walk on uplands unbounded, and I know that there is hope for that which Thou didst mold out of dust to have consort with things eternal. - The Dead Sea Scrolls Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3453 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed JJ asks: "Meanwhile this idea is a good question to leave you with. Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when?" If we ever meet in person, and I ask you "Do I look fat?" - trust me, it is best to lie! :-) Coming from a family in which I have come to discover that the truth was always a relative thing, I am not the best person to ask. I will go into "white lie mode" at the drop of a hat. One thing I have learned in recovery is to "say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean." Lord knows, I try, but I am just getting started on the path, so I can only get better from here (unless I move into used car sales :). I'd rather listen and see what you all have to say. Love, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3454 From: Margaret Hampson Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-03-16 of The Keys of Knowledge List I think our consciousness has moved beyond the need to be pushed (as in Jennifer's quote of Apollinaire), and that the initiate is more likely to be one who initiates the leap into the unknown. Light and Love to all, meganne Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3455 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Happy St Patrick's Day Everyone (or any excuse for a joke) Glenys, thanks for the St. Patty's smile, the wind at the backs of all the Keysters and a bucket of shamrocks to u all. Light and Love karen May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, May the rain fall soft upon your fields, And, until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of your hand. ~ Irish Blessing Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-17/3456 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed "Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when? JJ" I guess next to, " what is my purpose here on earth", this is the next asked question. Is it OK to lie? I've been a liar far longer than a student of Truth, and can tell no valid reason for the out and out lies, the gains are short lived and the complications, lies create are hardly worth the trouble. Keeping a lie going requires a lot of energy, energy that could be used to accomplish far more if channeled properly. The white lies that everyone tells everyday to avoid a conversation or hurting someone's feelings, are difficult to stop. They are an ingrained habit, sometimes even referred to as proper manners. I can't sweat them right now while I'm working on the big ones. The biggest lies are the ones we tell ourselves. The one about being unworthy of strength, love, and grace. The lie about not having earned our spot in paradise. The biggest lie of all....I CAN'T. I used to be a horse trader, not all liars are horse traders, but all horse traders are liars. Just call it on the job experience. Love and Light Y'All karen Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3457 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed J J Dewey wrote: "Should we always tell the truth? Aren't there times that it is best to lie? If so, when?" I always work on the principle that it isn't acceptable to lie about anything. Then when I do lie (such as telling someone they don't look fat when in fact they look like a beached whale or they don't look their age when they look like an Egyptian mummy) I know exactly what I'm doing. I tend not to judge myself for it (discovering years ago that there are plenty of people willing to do that job for me) but I note my action and engage in ongoing reviews of my motivations and hidden agendas. I agree with Karen - the biggest lies are the ones we tell ourselves. Once we stop doing that, we also stop lying to others. It s a 'loving your neighbour as yourself' thing. So should a leader lie to her country about impending doom such as a predicted earthquake or a nuclear attack, in an effort to stop panic and hysteria? Should our leaders keep quiet about contact with extraterrestrials? Is it ever right t lie to the people? Some would say Yes but I think we should always be told, no matter what the consequences. How can we exercise free will and choice if we're denied full information? But I agree with those who've spoken about absolute truth and relative truth. As long as we know the difference at the time....:-) Love Glenys PS Did you know that Lucy Lawless is a Kiwi woman? I remember her before she became Xena making a living by doing awful TV ads like selling pot mits. Of course, we all look like her over here. Unfortunately, I had to give up my leather wear in favour of silk because the leather chafed on my wonder bra. And you, darling Keysters, can decide whether or not I'm lying. As if..........! :-) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= So I walk on uplands unbounded, and I know that there is hope for that which Thou didst mold out of dust to have consort with things eternal. - The Dead Sea Scrolls Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3458 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed I think, sometimes, it is best to lie. You shouldn't tell the truth, if to do so would cause harm to someone else or not be for the greatest good for all concerned. Sometimes, what appears to be a bad thing, to us, is really for our greatest good. The entire physical universe could be said to fit this category. If we are all God, then why should we have to go through all this physical B.S. anyway. It's all so that we can learn to think properly. Higher beings taught mankind to cultivate and eat grains, yet modern research indicates that the majority of deaths and disease, on this planet, can be traced to the eating of grains. So, why would loving, higher beings introduce the eating of grain, if it is so unhealthy? It's because hunter-gatherers don't tend to form civilizations and civilizations, for all their bad points, do tend to provide more lessons in learning to live as one. If it weren't for bread, you and I might still be running around naked and eating bugs and we wouldn't be having this philosophical conversation via modern technology. Would I lie to you? Yes, in a heartbeat, if it meant saving you from a worse fate. To the ten commandments, there are many exceptions. Was it wrong of Robin Hood to steal from the rich and give to the poor? Would it be wrong to kill a Hitler and save millions of other lives? Jesus taught us which commandments should never be broken. Sometimes we have to break the remaining ones, to keep his. But to do so, without incurring debt to ourselves, takes a discerning and free spirit. It has to be done with love as it's motive. If you lie or steal, for your own personal gain or kill, out of fear or anger, there will be a price to pay. If you do the same thing, in order to bring mankind closer to God, then all will be rewarded. That's my best guess, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3459 From: Mark & Dion Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed i don't believe Jesus gave a set of rules. as far as grains go in the beginning people did not eat and knew they didn't have to. they also understood there was no need for civilization just the connection to the one that there is. better than this electronic/sick/civilized mess we have now if you ask me. of course perfection is in the eye of the beholder. mark Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3460 From: Rick Audette Subject: reply to Mark Mark says "i don't believe Jesus gave a set of rules." Well, there is that sermon on the mount thing. But more specific, I was thinking there was some thing he said about what was the greatest of the commandments and He said to love God and to love one another. Perhaps someone else can provide the book and verse. It's almost 3:30 and I've got to get a few hours of sleep now. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3461 From: Marylin Subject: Re: Initiates Revealed Tracey writes: "If we ever meet in person, and I ask you "Do I look fat?" - trust me, it is best to lie! :-" Hi Tracey If you were to ask me the above question, I would ask you immediately "What makes you think you're fat?" This very thing has happened to me and I was almost at a loss for words as I "felt" the person would be deeply hurt if I said yes. Rather than tell a lie, I got the person to talking about the problem of weight loss and in the end we stayed friends because it is more important what is in the inside than what is on the outside. Times like these cause me to remember, "Judge not that ye be not judged." Marylin_ Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3462 From: J J Dewey Subject: To Tell The Truth I would like to welcome Xena, I mean Glenys, back to the list. I'm also glad to see that Tracy and John are still posting. It's also good to see some new blood surfacing now and then. We welcome you... And if you feel like posting a differing point of view that is fine too. All we ask is sincerity and that comments center around the topic under discussion. If you do have something interesting to post that is off the topic we suggest you begin the subject of your post with (OT). This has been working well with the group. I notice that sometimes a posting is made with very long lines of type. This is corrected by using the "text wrap" command available in most e-mail programs. If you do not have a text wrap you can correct the problem by manually hitting the return key after each 80-100 characters of type. Today's question: Should we always tell the truth? Most of you thought we should always try to tell the truth except when we hurt some in some way. Glenys seemed to think we should tell the truth all the time. Before I give you my answer to this question it is important that we define what a lie is so we can all be discussing on the same page. A lie is a definite conscious act made with the intention to deceive. Many people in this age do not seem to understand what a lie is. For instance, almost everyone called George Bush's statement on "no new taxes" a lie when it was not. This was a promise and he definitely broke it, but a promise and a lie are two different things. Most people who break promises have a full intention of carrying them out when they are made, but just do not have the will power to fulfill them. A lie occurs in the present tense, not the future, and in this present tense the person willfully deceives. Silence with rare exceptions, is not a lie. God Itself, and the Brotherhood of Light do not answer our questions on many issues. Silence is neither a lie or the truth. It is just silence. Even the Bible says, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing..."Proverbs 25:2 Solomon also said there is a time and a place for everything under heaven, even a time to kill and a time to hate. Eccl 3:3-8. It is, however, conspicuously silent about a time to lie. It is also interesting that there were only two sins openly condemned by Jesus - hypocrisy and lying and when you think of it hypocrisy is a form of lying. Hypocrisy presents a false image of oneself. But, asks one, surely there are circumstances where we should lie. How about if my wife asks me if her thighs are too big? If I want to live I lie, right? Even more dramatic, what if I lived in a place like Nazi Germany and the SS came after my son and asked me where he is. I'd be happy to lie to save his life. Surely God would forgive me for such a thing. The truth is this. The good or the bad of it has nothing to do with whether God forgives you. A lie or deceit is like gravity. It produces a definite predictable effect and there is nothing ordinary mortals can do to escape this law. If you risk a fall because of the pull of gravity to do something heroic, like saving a life, the Powers that Be do not suspend gravity because you are being a good guy. Gravity must be taken into consideration no matter how good your deeds are. Deceit is the same thing. It has an effect whether the lie is intended to be good or evil. Every time we deceive or consciously lie the light between us and ours souls becomes dimmed. We only turn the light on in full again by centering ourselves in the complete truth and taking care with our words so that everything that comes out of our mouth is accurate communication to the best of our knowledge. The question is this. How do we avoid lying because of harmful circumstances? We must follow in the footsteps of the Masters before us and look ahead into the future and change events before they occur so you take charge of your life and do not allow yourself to be put in a situation where you may be forced to lie. This is what Einstein did before World War II. He saw what was coming and got out of Germany and thus the light of his soul was not diminished. I'm sure we'll be discussing this further, but let us get back to exploring initiates with another question that will test you for an open mind. Overall conservatives do not want to give liberals any credit for achievement and liberals hate to give conservative credit. The truth is that workers of light are on both sides of the fence from time to time, and those who follow the Middle Way of the Buddha can see this. Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate? Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3463 From: Robin Bryant Subject: Re: To Tell The Truth Hi all, This question has my thoughts going around in circles! I think it is a result of my limited education re: the definition of liberal and conservative. Aren't all initiations liberating? Assuming that this is true, who then who would be the judge of how conservative a liberation would be? (Or was?). JJ stated that workers of light have been on both sides of the fence. Who determined what the fence boundary was? How does one determine what side they are on? For me, "conservative" is just a degree of "liberal" and there is no fence. Perhaps someone can enlighten me further. Thanks, Robin "Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate?" Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3464 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: To Tell The Truth 'Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate?" First of all, I hope my e-mails are word wrapping properly. I have contacted Hotbot because someone told me I was having this problem. I thought I had fixed it, but want to be sure. Robin asked about the fence. Now that she mentions it, it is all varying shades of gray (meaning as far as I can tell, there is no fence.) As to the liberals and conservatives, I have to ask myself where does Martin Luther King, Jr. fall? I mean, his desire for change was viewed as "radical" yet he went about making his point quite peacefully (which would seem conservative to me, although I know there are conservative "hawks" and liberal "doves" out there). The more I think about it, I realize I don't have a clue, so I'll leave it to all you brilliant folks. One thing: did any of you see Oprah being interviewed last night by Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes? I thought it was interesting the questions she did not answer, like "are you a republican or democrat?" to which she said something like "I won't answer that." When asked why, she said "it's not important which one I am as to who I am." There were several questions she didn't answer, and it made me realize how very smart she really is. My two cents... Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3465 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Re: To Tell The Truth JJ wrote: "Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate?" I guess you are thinking about American politicians here, so it is very hard for me to answer this question, but I want to say this: Ever since I was young I have had a hard time voting. Because the conservatives in Denmark value "free will" and "free choice" very highly - and so do I. The leftwing social parties value equality and helping the weak in our society - and I agree with that too. So at least I can see what you mean JJ - initiates on both sides :-)) Normally I always vote - not for parties, but for persons. That's the only way I am able to do it. Just for your information: In Denmark we have about 12 - 14 different parties to choose among :-)) Probably on a sidetrack here - hope you guys forgive me if this is nonsense to you. Lots of love and light to all of you keysters Anni Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3466 From: Jennifer Hampson Subject: Re: Digest No. 1999-03-18 of The Keys of Knowledge List I can't help but think that lies are always damaging, to ourselves and the person to whom we lie. Even if the damage is not apparent on the physical. It seems to me a sort of lack of respect for self and other. Love, Jennifer Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3467 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Word wrap trouble I visited Spiritweb and the archives today and can see I am the word wrap bummer! Sorry! So I'll keep quiet until I can get some help, or maybe I should just get an e-mail account at Yahoo. They were always pretty helpful with other stuff in the past. Hotbot hasn't been real responsive... we'll see. Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3468 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: To Tell The Truth Hi Anni, Anni Ida West wrote: "JJ wrote: "Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate?" "I guess you are thinking about American politicians here, so it is very hard for me to answer this question, but I want to say this: Ever since I was young I have had a hard time voting. Because the conservatives in Denmark value "free will" and "free choice" very highly - and so do I. The leftwing social parties value equality and helping the weak in our society - and I agree with that too." I appreciate your problem, Anni. It sounds like you have a mixed member proportional representation system similar to that of NZ (we threw out the Westminster system a few years ago in an effort to give people a better choice and keep politicians honest). Our conservatives and liberals have philosophies that are similar to yours and it *does* make the choice more difficult. I still tend to vote for the liberal parties though as they put people before economics. "In Denmark we have about 12 - 14 different parties to choose among :-)) Probably on a sidetrack here - hope you guys forgive me if this is nonsense to you." It's always interesting to hear about systems in other countries. Not everyone on this list is from the US. It just seems that way sometimes :-) Love Glenys PS Well said, Jennifer! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee, And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me. - Frost Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3469 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Word wrap trouble Tracey Hobson wrote: "I visited Spiritweb and the archives today and can see I am the word wrap bummer! Sorry! So I'll keep quiet until I can get some help, I'd rather have your words wrapped around my computer, my apartment and the entire planet than not being able to hear what you've got to say, Tracey." Keep talking. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee, And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me. - Frost Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3470 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Denmark Anni writes: "Just for your information: In Denmark we have about 12 - 14 different parties to choose among :-)) Probably on a sidetrack here - hope you guys forgive me if this is nonsense to you." Anni: No need to forgive you. I find it fascinating and refreshing to hear about the politics of other countries. Sometimes we here in the US can be a bit too, um, centered on our own way of government and of life. So keep those enlightening comments coming! ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-18/3471 From: Brian Weis Subject: Are you a cracked pot? ... take heart! (OT) ARE YOU A CRACKED POT? A water bearer in Africa had two large pots, each hung on each end of a pole which he carried across his neck. One of the pots had a crack in it, while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water at the end of the long walk from the stream to the master's house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the bearer delivering only one and a half pots full of water to his master's house. Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments, perfect to the end for which it was made. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it was able to accomplish only half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be a bitter failure, the cracked pot spoke to the water bearer one day by the stream. "I am ashamed of myself, and I want to apologize to you." "Why?" asked the bearer. "What are you ashamed of?" "I have been able, for these past two years, to deliver only half my load because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your master's house. Because of my flaws, you have to do all this work, and you don't get full value from your efforts," the pot said. The water bearer felt sorry for the old cracked pot, and in his compassion he said, "As we return to the master's house, I want you to notice the beautiful flowers along the path." Indeed, as they went up the hill, the old cracked pot took notice of the sun warming the beautiful wild flowers on the side of the path, and this cheered it some. But at the end of the trail, it still felt bad because it had leaked out half its load, and so again it apologized to the bearer for its failure. The bearer said to the pot, "Did you notice that there were flowers only on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side? That's because I have always known about your flaw, and I took advantage of it. I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walked back from the stream, you've watered them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate my master's table. Without you being just the way you are, he would not have this beauty to grace his house." Each of has our own unique flaws. We are all cracked pots. But if we will allow it, the Lord will use our flaws to grace His Father's table. In God's great economy, nothing goes to waste. So as we seek ways to minister together, don't be afraid of your flaws, you too, can be the cause of beauty on life's highway. Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3472 From: xavier Subject: (OT) a true web marvel passed to me by Flutterby, new keyster:) http://www.ben2.ucla.edu/~permadi/java/spaint/spaint.html ok this is just painting. But have a try with eyes closed, hand guided:) And a question or a receptivity to what is given. (fa - bu - lous) (grin) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3473 From: J J Dewey Subject: Right or Left? Robin writes: "This question has my thoughts going around in circles! I think it is a result of my limited education re: the definition of liberal and conservative. Aren't all initiations liberating? Assuming that this is true, who then who would be the judge of how conservative a liberation would be? (Or was?)." "JJ stated that workers of light have been on both sides of the fence. Who determined what the fence boundary was? How does one determine what side they are on? For me, "conservative" is just a degree of "liberal" and there is no fence. Perhaps someone can enlighten me further." What is liberating can be either conservative or liberal. For instance, one of the main reasons we fought World War II was to CONSERVE our way of life from the changes that Hitler wanted to impose. As a result this war brought liberation to many peoples. On the other hand the Revolutionary War in America was fought to create liberal change. This also brought liberation to many. There is always a fence in this reality and if we cannot see the point in the middle that creates the fence our beliefs are likely to be fuzzy. It is true that in some great ultimate reality everything is One, but if we dwelt in that reality now then you and I would not even exist as entities. Have we arrived at the consciousness to accept such a thing? I have not and I know of no one who has. Therefore, it is important that we deal with he reality in which we exist for this is what we must do to take our next step. In this reality a conservative and liberal exists just as much as a Mormon and Catholic does. Humanity has created precise definitions of thousands of terms to allow us to communicate and the words conservative and liberal are certainly two words with as much purpose as any other. Our way of looking at conservative and liberal is based on what we call the Pendulum Theory. A pendulum has two motions and three points. One motion is to the right and one is to the left. The three points on the pendulum are the extreme left, the extreme right and the point of stillness in the middle. If one studies the history of a country or civilization, he can see the swing of the pendulum at work. Periodically a people will swing over to the left as we did in the sixties, and then to the right as we did in the eighties. There are greater and lesser swings, and swings within swings - some lasting a few years, and others affecting us for centuries or more. Let's examine the energy behinds these forces which we call "conservative" or "liberal," and try to make sense of what is happening. We will leave out the insults that both sides throw at each other. THE PURE CONSERVATIVE Associated with the past (the good old days were good, the future seems bleak); resistance to untried /unproved ideas; fiscal responsibility; male dominated; old time religion; an "eye for an eye" punishment philosophy; belief in the literal Constitution; reliance on self, the mind and common sense; authoritative; belief in freedom but limited to parameters of one's own philosophy. THE PURE LIBERAL Associated with the future (the good old days were not so good and the ideal lies in the future); willingness to try unproved ideas; spend, and the needed money will somehow materialize; female dominated; non-literal, possibly experimental in religion; belief that criminals are often victims and need rehabilitation; non-literal interpretation of the Constitution; reliance on the group, particularly in making decisions; governed by emotion and instinct rather than mind; belief in freedom but also limited to parameters of one's own philosophy... Anyone who is not an extremist can see here that we would be in trouble if either side dominated on a permanent basis. If the pure conservative dominated completely, we would be under very strict rule in certain areas of our lives, and only governed by what we thought worked in the past. Progress and innovation would come to a standstill. Entertainment would be very stifled. Present conservatism in the United States is linked to capitalism and limited government, but keep in mind that capitalism and limited government were created by liberals. Conservatives now endorse it because it is associated with the past. If the pure liberal ruled completely, we would have 1000 per cent inflation, bankruptcy due to overspending by the government and controls on corporate profits, uncontrolled entertainment ,and very few effective controls on the criminal element. Fortunately, the natural order of things allows the liberal and conservative energies to interplay and guide us toward the point of truth that is somewhere in the middle. We must not discard all the things of the past as the pure liberal desires, but take the things that are good and keep them, and have the courage to drop the things that have outlived their usefulness. We must not be afraid to try new things as the liberal desires (using conservative common sense), and spend money on experimental avenues (with fiscal responsibility). We certainly do not want our progress to remain at a standstill. Most of us have some of the conservative and liberal within us without fully realizing the interplay that is going on within us. The important thing to remember is to keep the spirit of freedom burning within our breasts and allow those with whom we disagree to have their say. Freedom does not belong to either conservative or liberal, even though both sides lay claim to it. Freedom can only triumph when there is complete openness to both sides of a question. How are conservative and liberal energies working out in today's world? We cannot completely tie these energies to Republicans and Democrats, for there are liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats. Nevertheless, liberal thinking has dominated politics, especially in the spending area for the period spanning 1965-1995. Because of this far left swing, it became imperative that we become more responsible as a nation with our finances and put our house in order. What chance does beautiful liberal idealism have if we are bankrupt as a nation? The nature of energy is forcing, not only the United States, but most of the nations of the world to examine closely what works and what doesn't work economically over the next few decades. At present, the conservative energies are also strong at play in the entertainment industry. There is much talk about shielding our youth from sex and violence. On the other hand, in religion and philosophy liberal energies are strong at play. Many innovations in religion and thinking are making themselves felt.. I do not know of any major religion that is becoming more conservative. In fact, religion is experiencing somewhat of a revival because of various liberal experiments in independent churches to bring back the flock. When one realizes that neither conservative or liberal is the big enemy, he can become an intelligent watcher of events and pick the side that is correcting a great wrong. That is why (from my point of view) I am conservative when I see that liberalism has gotten us in over our head, and liberal when I see conservatism stifling our creative energies. Because of this stance I find that conservatives seem to think I am a liberal and liberals think I am a conservative. If a person is polarized on one side or the other, he will think that any disagreement on any point brands me as the enemy. Nevertheless, I know there are a lot of people out there who take the best from both sides as I try to do. Some call the person in the middle a wimp. This may be true for one who always stands in the middle. But that is not my stand. My stand is sometimes to the right and sometimes to the left depending on where the push or pull is needed. The only stand I ever concretely take is either for the truth or the pursuit of truth wherever that path may lie. So, for those of you who have been guessing my political position you need to keep guessing because you will never be permanently correct. Perhaps it would bring some clarification if we point out that there are four positions to take politically. They are (1) Conservative polarization (2) Liberal polarization (3) Moderate polarization (4) The position of Truth no matter where it lies.. The quintessential examples of 1 is Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich. Mario Cumo and Jesse Jackson are great examples of 2. Moderate examples (3) are George Bush, Gov. Pete Wilson of California and on the Democratic side Sen. Bob Kerry. There are very few politicians in category 4, but when you find one, he or she will often have a major effect on the history of his country or even the world. The best example I can think of in this area would be Winston Churchill. He was neither conservative nor liberal, but searched for the truth without preconceived notions. He was one of the few politicians, especially in his era, who switched parties and was successful in both of them. Because he sought the most effective path, he became the only major figure in the world to become aware of the dangers of Hitler and his Nazi party before they became a world threat. He spent seven years trying to warn both parties of his country before they woke up to the truth of his words. Churchill did not take moderate stands to avoid criticism from both sides. Instead he took unpopular positions somewhere between the two extremes where he often stood alone. Other great leaders also took this fourth position to a greater or lesser degree. Among them are Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Thomas Jefferson and others. Unfortunately I cannot think of one current politician who fits squarely in this forth category. The difference between this last category and the other three lies in the quality called "judgment." The true conservative and liberal follows their ideals without questioning them or making judgments on their own. The moderate follows the line of least resistance and generally chooses a platform based on how popular its appeal will be. None of these three have to use much judgment in taking their position. For instance, a political observer can pretty much predict what their position will be at any given time. The impeachment vote along party lines was a great example. Churchill, on the other hand, was fairly unpredictable because he assimilated the facts and made a judgment, not based on party line or the line of least resistance, but on what is true and best for his country. To go beyond being a knee jerk reactor or sliding down the road of the line of least resistance does require the "arrogance" to examine all information, often ignore established authority and to make a judgment based on what you perceive as the best direction. Such a person will often be perceived as arrogant, no matter how humble his approach. He or she will also hear the words; "Who do you think you are?" If you have heard these words before you may be headed toward the fourth category of government by truth. The person in the fourth category is very effective in the persuasion of ideals because he understands how he arrived at them. He doesn't have his ideals because his mom or dad or teacher gave then to him, but because he arrived at them through independent thought. The person using judgment will often take the least safe position. The thinker in this fourth category does not always take a safe stand approximately in the middle of the two extremes to avoid offense as does the moderate. Often he will take the extreme position on the left or right. If the country is committing error on the far right, he may go to the far left to pull it toward the middle; and if the country is on the far left, he may swing to the far right to help highlight the truth at the middle. The truth is always relevant and if your goal is to expose the truth your impact will be powerful and lasting. I am still waiting for someone to name me two conservative and two liberal initiates in any nation and tell me what they initiated. Why do you suppose this is so difficult? Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3474 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: To Tell The Truth Hello Keysters! :D First of all, I'd like to say that JJ mentioning the connection between Hawking and Galilei really struck a chord in me. Whenever I have read something about these 2 initiators, I've felt the similarity, the way they have expanded scientific horizons and broaden the perspectives of the way we collectively see our reality. Sign of a true pioneer :) I've always loved 'things that seem to be out of our reach', distant star and galaxies etc. :) When I was a little boy I wanted to become an astronomer. Read tons of books when I was around 10 and in my early teens. Always felt affinity with Galileo Galilei, the things he discovered and how the church disapproved his thoughts. I could see myself looking thru his telescope, and I wanted to construct one myself during those early years :) Then when Hawking's book came out, I bought it right away and after finishing it just sat for hours contemplating his ideas in my expanding mind. Instead of zooming into the stars, Hawking got me going beyond my own mental horizons, looking within and reaching the same place as Galilei with his telescope. There's a whole growing universe inside of each of us :) The sphere of consciousness is as unlimited as the starry night sky, and new ideas are like shooting stars. Catch one and use the chance of taking your beingness into a new dimension :) "I notice that sometimes a posting is made with very long lines of type. This is corrected by using the "text wrap" command available in most e-mail programs. If you do not have a text wrap you can correct the problem by manually hitting the return key after each 80-100 characters of type." I some of my mails have turned into a mess even if I have the word wrap option checked in my Eudora Light. Hmmm. I guess I'll just have to try and keep my lines shorter :) "Most of you thought we should always try to tell the truth except when we hurt some in some way. Glenys seemed to think we should tell the truth all the time." Had no time to reply to this question and most of my thoughts surfaced in other emails sent (I especially loved John's letter:) but I'll just write a few thoughts I had here. I too think we should always tell the truth, or the right aspect of it :) With this I mean that for someone who can't grasp the full meaning of a certain thing, a truth can be more dark in nature than Light when it's being misunderstood. This often comes from only looking at the outer manifestation of something instead of looking at the core, the principle behind the pattern. For example, it's not the point to be able to walk on water, what your mind and will power is capable of is. So, instead of desperately trying to have one's feet float above a liquid surface, one should concentrate on building strong belief system that breaks the illusion on what is thought to be possible, freeing oneself from all the limiting patterns and rising above watery mind, the subconscious, and walking steadily under the light of full consciousness above 'the unknown'. A little more faith in your abilities and you just might soar up in the sky in new heights :) But no matter how freeing a piece of information can be, in the hands of one who hasn't reached the understanding of it, it can be useless or even dangerous. Then again, truths are not one-dimensional, there are many sides, levels and endless depth to them. They way universe works, we receive the answers to our current questions, as long as we keep asking and paying attention to what we are given. But again it's important to know where were at in order to be able to ask the right questions. So again, we need to be aware of ourselves in the now. "A lie is a definite conscious act made with the intention to deceive." I find this a good definition indeed :) My understanding is, you can not lie before there is self- deception. Everything comes from having an honest relationship with the self. I can understand white lies yes, but I also think that when you speak out loud any kind of non-truth, and it can be something that seems minor, avoiding a responsibility, possible to yourself for example, you are still wronging yourself in the sense that you are not expressing the highest truth within your knowledge, goiing for the most building thing available. Then again, these things aren't simple and you can't really generalize. Every case is different. I know I'd lie in a second if I could save someone close to me, well anybody, from an unjust death, as in JJ's example of Nazi's asking where his son was. About human body parts... :) JJ says silence it not a lie, but what if I just choose to smile? :D Truth being, there is incredible amount of beauty in all of us, it's just a question of how much we are both willing to see and express. "This was a promise and he definitely broke it, but a promise and a lie are two different things. Most people who break promises have a full intention of carrying them out when they are made, but just do not have the will power to fulfill them." When I read these lines I was thinking about wedding vows and how many marriages end up in divorce nevertheless. Hmmm...Creates many thoughts... There's so many sides to it :) "The truth is this. The good or the bad of it has nothing to do with whether God forgives you. A lie or deceit is like gravity. It produces a definite predictable effect and there is nothing ordinary mortals can do to escape this law.' Yes. Whether you lie or speak truth, there's an outcome and repercussions, that is universal, and it comes back to you. Looking at it that way, if everybody did their best to speak truth in every moment, what a different world we'd live in. The situation would feed itself and as humankind, we'd reach new heights quickly. Actually, the best world I could imagine would be one where people felt that they didn't have a need to not tell the truth, it would be natural and fully accepted to be totally open and honest. Holding things within is one of the biggest blocking factors for people on individual level, which what we as humanity are made of. Of course, this would require full responsibility of all actions and respect all brothers and sisters. Maybe there's a long way to go, but when we start living according to the highest we know, one by one, we make a difference. "Name two conservatives and two liberals who were or are initiates in the positive sense. What did they initiate?" Like Anni, I too know too little about American politics. When I think about Finnish politicians, I still find it a hard question :) Like Denmark, we too have over 10 parties to choose among, all with different set of ideals, sometimes overlapping. We are just having an election for the members of parliament, and I cast my vote for somebody who seemed to have many of the same ideals as myself. Would be nice seeing her get elected, I believe she'd be a great member of parliament :) Peace and a great weekend everybody! Samu :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3475 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Right or Left? J J Dewey wrote: "The truth is always relevant and if your goal is to expose the truth your impact will be powerful and lasting." "I am still waiting for someone to name me two conservative and two liberal initiates in any nation and tell me what they initiated. Why do you suppose this is so difficult?" Hi Folks Well, could this be the reason for our difficulty in deciding on examples? JJ wrote: "Other great leaders also took this fourth position to a greater or lesser degree. Among them are Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Thomas Jefferson and others. Unfortunately I cannot think of one current politician who fits squarely in this forth category." I see that you don't see any current politicians within this fourth category. And it would seem to me that the initiate (one who initiates something completely new) cannot, by definition, emerge from either side of the pendulum swing, but must be one who by virtue of their wide perspective is able to see both left and right, forward and back, future and past, and to be able to extract the highest truth available from his understanding. Therefore, the reason this is so difficult is because one cannot truly be an initiate who has grounded themselves to one side of the pendulum or the other. If fact, the initiate almost always defies the limits of any label we might try to give them. So what you have given us here is a virtually unanswerable question. But of course the outcome of such an inquiry is to lead us into a new understanding and a new (at least new to us) definition of the politician who is also an initiate. So let's try some imagery. Let's imagine the liberal as one who when sitting always sits on the left cheek. The conservative as one who always sits on the right cheek. And the moderate as one sitting on the fence. With this image, we can then see the liberal AND the conservative as being half-a**ed, and the moderate as being a pain in the a**. But what would the initiate look like in this imagery? I see the initiate as one who when sitting, covers the left side with the left cheek, the right side with the right cheek, and crushes the fence in the middle. I suppose with this image, we might then see the initiate as a fat a**. Hmmm. It's gonna be tough losing this image. :D Mirthfully, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-03-19/3476 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Right or Left? Boy, do I ever like what you've said about Churchill. He sounds like he was a great man for a great time in history. I am not about to compare myself to Churchill but I like to assimilate the facts and then make a decision too. I also liked what you said about conservatism and liberalism. I am conservative about some things and liberal in others; it depends upon the facts involved and how I inter