1999 - WEEK 6 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2949 From: John Pesonen Subject: Re: Web site review Hi Everyone, I guess I can cop a ride on someone elses que.. i have posted but realizing i don't have much time to read i havn't been paying attention closely in many areas, spreading things about too thinly maybe i should concentrate on this area for a bit.. Have a look at my website and please send mail, post a message, I'll pay attention here and lets see if we can complete some circuits :) Love & Blessings John A. Pesonen Avalon Web "Spirit of Essence" http://michiganupnorth.com/avalon ICQ Message Panel http://michiganupnorth.com/icqmessages Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2950 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Song of the 144,000 Hi everyone I have been singing the song ever since I read it the first time through subscription. I passed Book 1 along to my sister in Texas and she also began the song. This brings me to my point. Janet called me last night for another reason, but began first to tell me what had happened to her Friday morning going to work on the freeway. She was driving in the outside lane of three lanes coming up on an exit ramp. There was another car on the inside lane. She suddenly was given the thought, "Sing the song". So she followed the advice. She only completed the first stanza when the car in the middle lane suddenly shot across all the lanes and down the exit ramp. It just missed my sister's car. She was startled, as anyone would be, and then began to wonder if it was her Guardian Angel that gave her the message, or if it was Satan that made the other car almost hit her. She was confused about it at the time and continued to work. When she told me about it last night, I knew the power of the song. First stanza, "protection from all destructive forces." The Song saved my sister's physical life. I know some would think it's just a coincidence. That's okay, but I just happen to know better. Love, Light, Peace and Harmony Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2951 From: John Subject: Love's Perfect Union... Love's Perfect Union In perfect union, sacred and divine, The extension of truth births Unending concepts of bliss. The belief systems, the stepping Stones to this divine marriage Fall away The resistence to the perfect harmony Flowing from this union soon evaporates In the warmth of the Love that is the Essence of all it creations. Understood or not, the effect for all Is joyful. John and Ananda Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2952 From: John Pesonen Subject: Re: Song of the 144,000 That sparks an iteresting point i must share... missy and i are soulmates or twinflames or whatever you would like to call it someday we will be together.... or not. if you know what i mean. the energy is very thick between us... Anyway i had sent her the lyrics to the smashing pumpkins "perfect" and I may as well include that..... I know, we're just like old friends. We just can't pretend, lovers make amends. We are reasons so unreal. We cannot help but feel. That something has been lost. But please, You know you're just like me. Next time I promise we'll be perfect Strangers down the line. Lovers out of time, I promise we'll be perfect. Memories unwind. So far I still know who you are. But now I wonder who I was. Angel, you know it's not the end. We'll always be good friends. The message has been sent. Please, you always were so free. You know you're just like me. You know this has to be. Strangers when we meet. Strangers on the street. Lovers while we sleep. Perfect, you know it has been perfect. We always were so free, we promised that we'd be. Perfect. I read these lyrics like I remembered us planning for us to be together. Like it was recorded in time. To be played when we arrive at this particular destiny. And the rest of the story............ I was driving by a place where we used to meet and thought about going there.. at that moment a voice go's "you don't have to do that" I thought "why" and WHAM ..... that song comes on the radio. Co-incidence? maybe... it's an everyday thing. Peace and Blessings all of you. John A. Pesonen Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2953 From: John Subject: Hieeee Rick! Dear Love It is me Ananda I caaaaaaan't beleive this I AM living with John now *sigh* we are very connected aren't we!!!!??? I Love you! Ananda my email address: ananda@superaje.com ********* Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2954 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Question Since the list is in a lull today, thought I'd ask a question. Does anyone know what 2 plus 2 means, as stated by John in the Book? I can't even find what page it's on so as to quote it exactly, but it seemed to be very significant in the context it was written it. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2955 From: John Subject: Web site review "Hi Folks, As I see new people join, I start trying to learn about them. I search their name at spiritweb and get their e-mail address. If they have also listed a web page address, I go there and see what they are into. I have this dream of all the bringers of light recognizing themselves as one family. One such new member is John McIntosh. John has a web page about inner guidance (soul contact) and you can subscribe to a daily post of thoughts on the subject. The ones I have seen, so far, seem highly fitting to the things we talk about on the Keys. I wrote and told him that I look forward to his input in our discussions. I'm not giving his address or URL here. That way he can jump in and introduce himself to us all (that's your que John). Ever interested in gathering Light, Rick" Dear Rick and List members; Thank you for your thoughtfulness; I am an author of two books "The Millennium Tablets" and "Living Abundantly through Inner Guidance", as well as a ghost writer/editor for "The Keys to the Kingdom" for my spiritual mentor of 23 years, Edith Bruce. I have been an entrepreneur for 32 years finding balanced abundance in life only after a beginning the search within. With my life partner, Ananda (who is an intuitive healer, non denomination ordained minister and teacher of A Course in Miracles) and we teach healing through Love which involves a shift in attitude that leads us to express and extend All that we are. We operate a facility called "Sacred Sanctuary" that is open to various healing modalities, teachings, classes and retreats dedicated to that end (in Ontario, Canada) We also operate a daily list called "Inner Guidance" Inspirations see http://www.innerguidance.com and a regular list on LOVE called "Be-Loved" see: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/Be-Loved Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-08/2956 From: J J Dewey Subject: The Principle of Trinity I was surprised that no one even tackled the question on the 144,000. I believe this is the first time the whole group has not taken a stab at it. Marylin did give a great comment on the protective power of the Song however. I personally find it interesting that whenever I seem to have a bad day it is during a time when I did not say the song for at least a day. The main purpose of the Song in this age is to protect the Lights as a group from the negative energies that would like to see them being thrown to the modern day lions, but it's power also extends to many personal benefits. Here is the illusive question: Question: How should we use the three aspects of prayer, meditation and contemplation when we say the Song of the 144,000? Remember the principle of the Trinity: "All life and all power that brings life and true power of livingness must express itself through three aspects or divisions of energies or methods." One of the reasons that the Song of the 144,000 is a powerful combination is because it expresses itself through a Trinity. First the Song is a prayer because it is directed to God as a prayer of thanks as well as an affirmation. Secondly it is a meditation. Where is meditation involved you ask? In between the verses you should have a short period of silence. For instance, after you say "Wherever we will the Light to descend." You can then visualize the light descending on all those in the world who have said the prayer on this day as well as anyone else you personally know who may be deserving of it. After you finish this short visualization then you have a short period of silence where you enter into meditation deep and sense light coming through you. At this point you may receive some important impression that you are supposed to act upon. Repeat this meditation at the end of each verse and the end of the Song itself. Thirdly and finally you use contemplation. You can contemplate some during the prayer but you will use this mostly after the prayer. Contemplate the impressions that come to you during the day because of the increase of Light and Love and Power. If you are saying the Song with pure intent and tuning into the Oneness Principle additional light will just come to you from time to time and it is important that you contemplate or think long and hard about what you receive so you can have power to retain it. We will finish with the Molecular Business soon but in between such postings we will talk more about soul contact for a while. Now remember that the soul itself is not God or the Higher Self, but is a door to the higher realm. The dark night of the soul is merely a period where the door is shut for some reason. But remember, the door is always there and the kingdom of God behind the door is always there. An important thing to be aware of in soul contact is that it usually deals with principles instead of facts. Those who are in the solar plexus will rattle of numerous facts that may or may not be true, but the true teacher of light will deal mainly with principles because they can be verified by the souls of those who are ready. I'll quote from a previous article: "Soul contact has little to do with facts, except in important circumstances, but it has much to do with principles. For instance, your soul may not verify to you what an inhabitant of Sirius looks like or how many there are, but it will verify to you the principle of life and its existence elsewhere in the universe." Question: What is the difference between a fact and a principle? Why does soul contact deal with principles instead of facts? JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2957 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: The Principle of Trinity JJ writes: "Question: What is the difference between a fact and a principle? Why does soul contact deal with principles instead of facts?" Sorry, JJ, I spaced out yesterday's question. Upon re-reading it, I see that it's more involved than just a short email, so will need to put my thoughts together on it. For today's question: Webster dictionary defined fact as actual existence and principle as the beginning, foundation of something, a source of origin, or that which gives a substance its essential properties. Soul contact, then, deals with principles because that is the source of substance, which, when revealed in the physical becomes fact. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2958 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: The Principle of Trinity A fact is knowledge based on hard evidence. (Scientific...) If the soul could tell us facts, anyone with soul contact would be psychic. They would be able to tell you how many stars are in the galaxy without error. That would take away the challenge to life, and the whole reason for living. A principle is more like a rule, or law. A guideline by which we can enhance our lives and streamline our learning process. It would make sense that the soul would use principles to help us learn and grow, since no one (not even God) knows it all. Peace and Love, Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2959 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: hmmmmmm? Be like a postage stamp and stick to one thing until you get to where you're going. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2960 From: TeKnoBabL Subject: Re: The Principle of Trinity JJ writes: "Question: What is the difference between a fact and a principle? Why does soul contact deal with principles instead of facts?" A fact is just a piece of information that can be used immediately after it's been learned. The John character from the Immortal called facts 'lower knowledge,' because anyone can learn them. There's no difference between a human knowing a fact and a computer 'knowing' a fact. The importance of expressing your emotions, for example. It's well-known that it's unhealthy to 'hold things inside,' so to speak. But not many understand why that's true. That's where principles come in. A principle is what makes a set of facts true. A principle is eternal--i.e.--there is no ultimate understanding of it. Not as many can learn principles as they can facts because it takes a degree of soul contact. The principle that makes us Who We Are, for example, can have thousands of facts derived from it. If you've read the Immortal then you know the answer to the question 'Who or What am I' is 'I am what I decide to become.' The actual answer is a fact derived from the eternal principle behind what makes the answer true. This is probably why it's more important to teach principles instead of facts. It's like teaching a man how to fish as opposed to giving him a fish. Soul contact, then, deals with principles instead of facts because the understanding of principles frees the person's consciousness from all bonds (including reliance on his teacher), whereas if a person was simply taught a fact (given a fish) he would constantly need to go back to this outward source of facts for sustenance. So, to sum up all my babbling, a person who has a degree of understanding of a single principle will be able to derive many facts from it on his own. The soul deals with principles because we're on an evolutionary journey--going from matter to spirit. Pursuing greater freedom requires going to the source behind what makes facts true. Since the soul is the gateway between spirit and matter, the info coming from it must needs be principles. Egads, I'm starting to remind myself of my old English teacher. Remember folks, I'm . . . Still tinkering, Rob Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2961 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Rob's EGADS TeKnoBabL writes: "Egads, I'm starting to remind myself of my old English teacher. Remember folks, I'm . . . Still tinkering," Geesh, Rob, and I was really getting into what you were saying, and thinking "goodness, this guy's got it, I do believe!" then you went and qualified your answer......shucks. I do hope you tinker and tinker til the teacher touches your toes.....! HAHAHA LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-09/2962 From: Brian Weis Subject: Facts and Principles JJ writes: "Question: What is the difference between a fact and a principle? Why does soul contact deal with principles instead of facts?" Actually, JJ gave us an answer some time ago (in a message dated 11/14/98 4:34:12 AM): [[Let me quote John from my book in describing a principle: "Higher knowledge deals with principles and requires a certain attuning with the spiritual self to be able to apply it. For instance, anyone can learn how to write down musical notes, but to compose a beautiful and original melody requires an attuning with music itself. Anyone can memorize a scale of notes but only the person who is in tune with music can come close to understanding the principle behind music and write original scores." In that same email, he wrote: "[[ The understanding of a principle can reveal thousands of facts, but it often takes a thousand facts to understand one principle. One must understand a principle to teach or lead others to it.]]" I particularly like the example he used in that message: "Writing new music involves working with a principle whereas the notes are just data." ~B. **************************** "I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the final sanctuary of the terminally inept." ~ the marquis de Carabas **************************** Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2963 From: Rick Audette Subject: The Principle of Trinity Principles or facts: A fact is not necessarily real or true. My definition of a fact is, that which can be verified, using only the 5 senses, by two or more people. A fact can be based on Truth or illusion. Facts are physical and as such they have a beginning and an end. What is a fact today, may not have been yesterday and could be fiction tomorrow. We can all agree that the sun is a fact, because we all have the same senses that can see it's light and feel it's heat, but there is a lot more to being a sun than what we can perceive with the 5 senses. Principles are not physical or temporal. They always were and always will be. They do not change. They are eternal. Principles are like the data stored on a holographic film and facts are the 3D images produced from this film. The holographic data does not look like the projected image. You cannot look at the film and point out which part contains the data for a given part of the 3D image. All of the data can be found at any point on the film and even a small piece of the film can still be used to create the whole 3D image. The angle that you shine a laser through the film will determine what the 3D image looks like. You can see the image from top, bottom, left, right, or any of an infinite number of angles. So too, one principle can be used to produce an infinite number of facts, each with different sides to them (good side bad side, etc.). The principle of yin/yang has no size, of it's own, but controls every corner of the universe, in things as small as quarks or as large as whole galaxies. We think of facts as being true and real because we have accepted the perceptions of the majority, who are using the same 5 senses as us. This seems like a good, democratic thing to do, but in doing so, we give power to an outside authority (the beast). All our facts are nothing more than shadows of what is real. The principles are the only REAL, TRUTH. "I AM BECOMING" is a principle, not a thing. Regardless of what thing you were, are, or will be, your I AM BECOMING principle always was and always will be the same. You and me and God will become something different tomorrow, but the principle never changes. This is why we need to use principles instead of facts when communicating with soul, because they are the universal language of spirit. Well, that's my theory on the whole thing. And the only way I know to prove or disprove it is for me to master soul contact. Then I can call it knowledge. But none of this can be just given to me or you. Each of us has to do our own homework. Knowledge is no thing, it is a principle, itself. Acquiring knowledge, love or oneness is not a matter of collecting bits of stuff. It is, rather, a measure of our ability to BE/BECOME the principle, itself. To get there is the end, To which all means have been devised. But, to get there, all it takes Is to see it Through it's own eyes The ultimate, infinite goal is at-one-ment with the Principle Of Principles. To get there, it would seem, you need to learn to see, hear, and speak principles. I am pleased to process our principals pronouncements, pertaining to the principle of principles by parables and posts, passed to keysters, via web. (all those P's and not a Q, now what's Rick trying to do) It's all about Peace (P's), Love, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2964 From: Rick Audette Subject: Best sample Hi Folks, I got a letter which the webmaster has sent to various list operators. Seems that, down the road a bit, they'd like to know of a collection of say 200 posts representing the best of what we are about. They will ask me, later, what my recommendation is. I listen to others thoughts on this. At this point I would have to say, go to freeread dot com, Samu's archives of JJ's posts, and Lisa's Keysters pages and you will get a good idea of what we are about. What say you? To add zest to my compiled members list, I have started adding birthdays, as I get them. I'll show month, day in brackets [July 11]. I think it will be a handy and popular feature. Send me yours, if you want to play. Read your name, on the list, and fill us in on the missing details, ok. One, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2965 From: J J Dewey Subject: Final Questions QUESTION: Will the Molecular Business work for all companies or just certain ones? ANSWER: It can be used quite efficiently with any business or enterprise that has a hierarchical type of leadership. The greatest potential for visible improvement is the manufacturing business. The most challenging will be the first business or two patterned after this order. When it has been proven to be successful then modified Molecular Businesses will be applied to other businesses. QUESTION: How would the Molecular Business work in a government hierarchy which has no stock? ANSWER: The principle of election would dramatically increase the effectiveness of government hierarchies. It is true that they do not have stock, but they do have various types of bonds which are very secure. They could use these in place of stock. It is expected that governments of the world will show little interest in this idea until it has been proven beyond any doubt to work. If a government were to switch over to the Molecular Relationship it would have to be a gradual process involving appropriate legislation on a national and State level. The way it would have to be done is to make it a policy that all new employees are to go on it, and current employees could join it on a voluntary basis. Government wages are currently set by legislation. Therefore legislators and government workers would need to work cooperatively to implement the Molecular Business for state employees. QUESTION: Has the Molecular Business ever been tried before? ANSWER: Not to my knowledge as of 1999, but since the principles are sound, it will work because nature works and it duplicates nature. QUESTION: If I wanted to start a Molecular Business what do I do? ANSWER: We would need a small group of willing people in one location, some working capital and a product to manufacture or distribute that is, or will be, in public demand. QUESTION: Will Molecular businesses compete with each other? ANSWER: Not if they are truly Molecular. If they follow the principle of union they will cooperate, not compete the way they do today where the opponent is destroyed. All Molecular Businesses will link up and select the leadership of the whole by popular vote. The Molecular individuals and groups will compete with themselves and try to improve on what they have done in the past. Of course there may be some friendly competition for some time between individuals and groups, but negative competition will die through attrition. QUESTION: Can a business apply just part of the Molecular principles? ANSWER: This is a free country and the principles outlined here are for anyone to use as they wish. A person in a responsible position with a large manufacturing company once told me that if only the principle of elected leadership, as outlined here, were implemented in her company that profits would double. One of the problems that this company and many others have is incompetent leaders getting in the way of progress. A portion of the Molecular principles wisely applied may help a business, but to really see the beauty of the program, the whole concept needs to be applied. QUESTION: Are there any other personal benefits from the Molecular Business you haven't mentioned? ANSWER: The potential benefits are without limit. For example, Molecular construction companies could link themselves to a parent Company and build homes for employees at much below the regular cost. The Company could create its own subdivision close to the workplace. This would reduce the cost of lots and add to the convenience of the employee. The Company could even help with some financing and the worker could make the down payment and buy down the interest rate through doing part of the work himself. The Company could start a Molecular real estate investment company that builds houses and rents them at lower-than-normal rates to employees who do not wish to purchase. Actually, the greatest benefit of the Molecular Business will be a spiritual one. The principle of equality and the principle of election are both very spiritual principles incorporated in all Brotherhoods of Light whereas among the Dark Brothers leadership goes to the strong and those who intimidate. There is also very little equality because the leaders are exalted above the masses to almost God status and always get more than their share of the riches available. The unequally among mankind mixed with the stifling of the freedom of choice causes blockages spiritual flow. When true equality and election is had among humans then the spiritual gifts will manifest to a much greater degree than now exists. The past forty years have seen much progress to prepare the world for the Molecular Business through better wages for the lower end worker, profit sharing, medical benefits, vacations, sick leave, work stability, pensions and so on. We have made much more progress than people realize. Even now we are seeking ads for products that even sound spiritual in tone. We are told that Volvo, for instance, will "save your soul." Watch a Saturn commercial and it almost sounds like they are promoting a new religion that will solve all your problems. If you listen to the products advertised and then listen to some religious ads the regular commercials often sound more spiritual, some of hem at least. This is all in preparation for the Aquarian Age because the day is soon coming when the masses will revere their company as much or more than they do their churches. Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others? I find it interesting that some have even criticized me for charging for my book. I will comment on yesterday's question on principles and facts in my next postings. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2966 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Latest list Rick Audette writes: "LeLona Hodges WICHITA,KANSAS" June 13 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2967 From: "TwinStorms" Subject: Re: Latest list James Bryan (TwinStorms) New Kensington, Pa. June 6 Light, Love and Power One for All and All for One! TwinStorms AKA James Bryan Whatever you can do, or dream of doing...Begin it. Action has beauty power, and magic in it... Begin it now. We are the Makers of Music, We are the Dreamers of Dreams. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2968 From: Lelona Hodges Subject: Re: Final Questions JJ writes: "Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others?" I think there can be a charge IF there are expenses in connection with the teachings, such as having to rent a building, utilities, advertisements, etc. Such as JJ's books. Certainly there was an expense there. I see no reason why he would ever be criticized for selling the book. If, on the other hand, JJ is offering teachings through this list, he is not asking for a donation for his wisdom. On the other hand, some people feel they need to pay for what they receive, otherwise it isn't valuable to them. At the same time, while JJ is teaching through this list, we, who are applying these teachings are paying wit something, even though JJ isn't getting the profits in cash. I'm sure he's profiting in other ways. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2969 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Latest list Diane Linen November 21 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2970 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Latest list John Kosior July 2 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2971 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Final Questions LeLona Hodges writes: "On the other hand, some people feel they need to pay for what they receive, otherwise it isn't valuable to them. At the same time, while JJ is teaching through this list, we, who are applying these teachings are paying with something, even though JJ isn't getting the profits in cash. I'm sure he's profiting in other ways." The Bible says: to store all our treasures in Heaven. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-06/2972 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT) The Fork THE FORK There was a woman who had been diagnosed with cancer and had been given 3 months to live. Her doctor told her to start making preparations to die (something we all should be doing all of the time.) So she contacted her pastor and had him come to her house to discuss certain aspects of her final wishes. She told him which songs she wanted sung at the service, what scriptures she would like read, and what she wanted to be wearing. The woman also told her pastor that she wanted to be buried with her favorite Bible. Everything was in order and the pastor was preparing to leave when the woman suddenly remembered something very important to her. "There's one more thing." She said excitedly. "What's that?" came the pastor's reply. "This is very important," the woman continued. "I want to be buried with a fork in my right hand." The pastor stood looking at the woman not knowing quite what to say. "That shocks you, doesn't it?" the woman asked. "Well, to be honest, I'm puzzled by the request," said the pastor. The woman explained. "In all my years of attending church socials and functions where food was involved (and let's be honest, food is an important part of any church event; spiritual or otherwise); my favorite part was when whoever was clearing away the dishes of the main course would lean over and say 'You can keep your fork.' It was my favorite part because I knew that something better was coming. When they told me to keep my fork I knew that something great was about to be given to me. It wasn't Jell-O or pudding. It was cake or pie. Something with substance. So I just want people to see me there in that casket with a fork in my hand and I want them to wonder 'What's with the fork?' Then I want you to tell them: 'Something better is coming so keep your fork, too.' " The pastor's eyes were welled up with tears of joy as he hugged the woman goodbye. He knew this would be one of the last times he would see her before her death. But he also knew that that woman had a better grasp of heaven than he did. She KNEW that something better was coming. At the funeral people were walking by the woman's casket and they saw the pretty dress she was wearing and her favorite Bible and the fork placed in her right hand. Over and over the pastor heard the question "What's with the fork?" And over and over he smiled. During his message the pastor told the people of the conversation he had with the woman shortly before she died. He also told them about the fork and about what it symbolized to her. The pastor told the people how he could not stop thinking about the fork and told them that they probably would not be able to stop thinking about it either..... He was right. So the next time you reach down for your fork, let it remind you, oh so gently, that there is something better coming. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2973 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: (OT) The Fork That was good, Diane. Thanks for sharing the story. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2974 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: Final Questions It depends on the circumstance. Are you doing it for a living? If so, then you must charge. Otherwise, how can you live? No income = No food, No shelter. Which in turn makes it so you can no longer provide the needed services, so everyone looses. That's no good. On the other hand, I believe there are some circumstances where the charge is not needed. For example, in such a case as this list. You are taking some of your free time (which I appreciate by the way.) to teach those of us who wish to learn, without charge. This, in turn, will only increase our desire to pay you for future books you may release. We want you to keep teaching, but we also understand you must support yourself and your family. I hope I speak for everyone. Peace and Love, Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2975 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: Final Questions Realistically, though. If we donated all of our time to our spiritual work, don't you think we'd have to be repaid somehow? We have to make a living down here, you know. Peace and Love, Dave "the Bible says: to store all our treasures in Heaven. Marylin" Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2976 From: John Pesonen Subject: Re: Final Questions Realistically you just have to involve spirit in your quest for success and the benefits come naturally. John A. Pesonen Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2977 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: (OT) The Fork Very touching and so very true. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2978 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: Final Questions So in other words, money is going to appear out of thin air for you to live on? Your house is just going to pay itself off? Sometimes you have to charge for your spiritual services in order to live. That's just the way it is in this world right now. Peace and Love, Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2979 From: Trixie Subject: Re: Latest list Penny Hughes, Jacksonville, Florida Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2980 From: Jerry L. Harris Subject: Re: The Principle of Trinity Greetings: A discussion of Principles vs. Facts: (This is the way it seems to me) A Principle is timeless, eternal. It is the Law behind the appearance. In fact, Principle is equated to be Law. The U.S. Constitution would be the Principle or Law guiding the administration of the U.S. A Fact is the appearance measured in material terms, & outpictured from a portion or facet of the Principle behind it. Facts could vary depending on time & space variables, or the condition/location of the perceiver of Facts. The Principle called gravity causes the apple to fall "down" versus "up" or vs. not at all.. The Fact that the apple fell "down" demonstrates the Principle or "Law of gravity". The Fact of falling down should be predictable anywhere, knowing the Law or Principle. Some metaphysical teachings equate Principle with God, i.e. Principle = God, as an ongoing, ever present stabilizing "Is-ness" behind all material Life. So, we can always look for the "reason" behind things and events to discover the "Principle" behind the action/event or Fact. When one understands the Principle behind something, one can begin to predict other possibilities in the realm of Fact. Facts on the Earth, or Moon would have their differences. Facts in other dimensions also would vary according to each dimension, but the Principle would be the same. Won't it be fun to verify these ideas on other planets and other dimensions? From the Laboratory of the Spirit in the plains of Mater, Love to all Jerry Harris Sun in Cancer @ June 22 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2981 From: Jerry L. Harris Subject: Re: Final Questions JJ writes: "Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others?" The essence of teaching is "giving" it seems to me. Giving has its own reward. Having done some teaching, I found the "inner" rewards to be most gratifying. The essence of learning is "receiving" it seems to me. He who receives may owe the "giver" from a previous lifetime, or he may be owed from another lifetime. Therefore, there is a mixed set of motivations here, (possibly), more so in these spiritual teachings, because we each may have interacted before, and there may already be a Yin/Yang give/take relationship which is still playing out. Probably, most Guru/Chela relationships can be as above. The teacher would know. The student might not (yet) know. I felt that John in "The Immortal" was most pleased to take on J.J. as a student, especially when J.J. passed those early initiations as they came up. To pay or not to pay, that is the question? I believe that a student wants to compensate his teacher in some way, particularly when he perceives his desires/needs being fulfilled by his teacher. The compensation can take many forms, and the student needs to fulfill his inner promptings in this regard. I feel, however, that it is a Principle, that High Spiritual teachings should not be Charged for. Not a set Fee. Out of pocket Costs related to the teaching should be compensated, however, such as room rental, copying costs, etc., but only on confirmation of inner promptings. I have known of a Highly attained Spiritual person, who took on a student over a period of three years. At the end of the time, he announced: "That's all", you now have all you need. When queried, he said "I owed you from another lifetime", and would not accept a penny for the time & teaching. Love, Jerry Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2982 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Final Questions Jerry L. Harris writes: "I have known of a Highly attained Spiritual person, who took on a student over a period of three years. At the end of the time, he announced: "That's all", you now have all you need. When queried, he said "I owed you from another lifetime", and would not accept a penny for the time & teaching." Thank you, Jerry, that was a great story. Where I'm coming from is that of having been a Treasurer for a "spiritual" group of people who paid for the housing and daily upkeep of a building to house the Priests and provide class rooms and a chapel. This had nothing to do with their teaching students, but had everything to do with them not teaching from their car and not eating. All the members tithed 10% of their net income, and this paid for all the expenses due Caesar. But I know from experience that even this act of giving has returns. For some people this is the only way they can give, is with money. But at least that's a start. You'd be surprised how many people gripe when having to give money away, even if they know what it's for. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2983 From: Kevin Shannon_ Subject: Re: Latest list Kevin Shannon September 28 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2984 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Latest list LeLona Hodges June 13 Sun in Gemini Moon in Aries Mercury in Gemini Asc in Gemini etc. etc. (making me a double gemini) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2985 From: Garrett Ward Subject: Re: Latest List Garrett Ward September 9 Sun in my eyes... Howling at the Moon... Mercury slightly above normal in the thermometer... Orion's Belt one notch too tight... Betelgeuse still one refreshing drink... Taurus in Detroit... Saturn in Tennessee... Anybody want me to do their "chart"? Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2986 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Latest List You didn't tell us the position of Uranus, Garrett ;-)) Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. - T. S. Eliot (1900's) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-10/2987 From: Garrett Ward Subject: (OT)Re: Uranus One moment please...as I must bow 3 times to the East and utter the magic incantation before gazing into my 8 ball...Oh my...the picture is somewhat hazy...perhaps if you were to invest another $19.95...Wait! It's getting clearer now (thanks for the double sawbuck). I see two possibilities: 1) One answer has something to do with not being able to find it with both hands and a map (a strange answer that has no meaning to me - does it have meaning for you?) 2) The other answer is even more bizarre. Something about the left cheek being impaled on Neptune's Trident. Are you aware that I can do your complete chart for only an amazingly low $99.95? I also sell some truly marvelous and rare snake oil in many varieties, and with Sedona so close by, I am never out of stock! The Star Master Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2988 From: Rick Audette Subject: Upbeat night Thanks All, I really had a great time collecting birthdays and locations. Then Glenys and Garret had me in stitches. Wow, 141 members now. Anything special happen when we hit 144 ? We can each reach out and join 1,000 others. How hard could that be? Web pages can do that easily. If you have a web page, does it have a link back to the Keys? If each of us got 2 other people interested in the first week and next week they each turned on 2 people, in 9 weeks, we would have over 144,000 singing the song. Something to think about. Thanks for all the info on your birthdays and locations. The rest of you, keep those cards and letters coming. Your friend, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2989 From: Lisa Folk Subject: Re: Latest list Lisa Folk July 26 Leo (haven't a clue about the rest) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2990 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Upbeat night Rick Audette wrote: "Thanks All, I really had a great time collecting birthdays and locations. Then Glenys and Garret had me in stitches. That's what you get when you put two Virgos together. Madness!! :-)" "Wow, 141 members now. Anything special happen when we hit 144?" I have it on good authority (our favourite word) that Astro Garrett intends to give the first 144 members of the list a free reading. What an honour!! Still in Orbit Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. - T. S. Eliot (1900's) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2991 From: J J Dewey Subject: Principles Principles Very funny Garrett & Glenys. I'm sure Garrett will be swamped with lots of people wanting readings. The question of the day Question: What is the difference between a fact and a principle? Why does soul contact deal with principles instead of facts? I am experimenting by waiting an extra day to cover the question. We'll see how this works. We had some great answers on this. Brian reminded us that we covered this somewhat in the past. I'm glad he did for I wasn't sure how much territory we had covered. I do not have time to cover the good comments you made but will mention a few. Rob pointed out that a computer can know a fact, but that there are principles behind facts. Rick mentioned the core principle of BECOMING which is behind all creation. LeLona told us that a principle is "a source of substance." But I was quite pleased to see an intelligent post from a new participant Jerry Harris. I hope to see more of his comments. He said: "A Principle is timeless, eternal. It is the Law behind the appearance." In fact, Principle is equated to be Law. The U.S. Constitution would be the Principle or Law guiding the administration of the U.S. (Note: Laws and freedoms are principles covered here JJ) "The Principle called gravity causes the apple to fall "down" versus "up" or vs. not at all.. The Fact that the apple fell "down" demonstrates the Principle or "Law of gravity". The Fact of falling down should be predictable anywhere, knowing the Law or Principle." It looks like the group has a good idea as to the difference between fact and principle; however the difference is sometimes illusive and I may test you now and then because this is an important point in overall learning and progression. I believe that someone mentioned that the language of the Soul deals with principles. This is a good way to see it. Think on this: It takes a thousand facts to reveal one principle, but one principle can reveal thousands of facts. If we see this as being true then we can understand that when the soul speaks to us that there will be times when a whole book can be communicated almost instantly. Before effective soul contact can be reached the seeker must have a clear understanding of the difference between facts and principles and seek the understanding of Principles. Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask? Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2992 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Latest list "Lisa Folk" writes: "Lisa Folk July 26 Leo (haven't a clue about the rest)" I could do it for you, or you could see it by yourself a http://www.astro.ch/atlas/atlquest-eng.html find your birthplace, then you'll be guided to a birth chart. If you want explanation from me the master of ignorance who wants to feel important (sorry french forum again) just mail me:) I don't do interpretation tho, but there sure are astrologers on the list. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2993 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Latest list Marylin A. Adams Bonaire, GA (USA) September 21 In the cusp Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2994 From: Sharon Jorgenson Subject: My Square Double LeLona, you must be my Gemini double! March 13 Sun in Pisces Moon in Aries Mercury in Pisces Asc in Pisces (making me a double Pisces) LeLona Hodges June 13 Sun in Gemini Moon in Aries Mercury in Gemini Asc in Gemini etc. etc. (making me a double gemini) Still plugged in, but distracted as usual and resumed lurking, SharonJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2995 From: Belle Subject: Re: Upbeat night Belle April 5, 1944 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2996 From: Marilyn Maple Subject: Re: Latest list Marilyn Maple Phoenix, Arizona June 19 (I don't know what any of this means but here you go) Sun in Gemini Mercury in Cancer Venus in Gemini Mars in Taurus Jupiter in Scorpio Saturn in Leo Uranus in Gemini Neptune in Libra Pluto in Leo Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2997 From: Hardin, Jennifer Subject: RE: Latest list Jennifer Lee Hardin (used to be Holtz) June 25th 1965 Birth place - Atlanta Georgia The chart site said but I don't know what it all means: Sun in Cancer Moon in Taurus Mercury - Cancer Venus - Cancer Mars - Virgo Jupiter - Gemini Saturn - Pisces Uranus - Virgo Neptune - Scorpio Pluto - Virgo Hi Everyone, I've been a "lurker" since the beginning. I'm zillions of posts behind and that's the primary reason I haven't participated in any of the conversations. It would seem though that the call to be involved is getting stronger all the time. I mean, Look! Here I am. So with that said I'm having a huge shy attack and think that I will return to my spot in the corner listening to and learning from everyone. I wish all of you much love, light, joy and happiness in this lifetime. :-) -Jenn Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2998 From: David Curtis Subject: Re: Principles J J Dewey writes: "Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" Honestly.. I would ask him once and for all, what is the truth? I'm sure he wouldn't just tell me the answer, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Peace and Love, Dave Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/2999 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Principles "Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" Only ONE question? I think I'd ask "who are you?" LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3000 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: RE: Latest list Hi Jenn, "Hardin, Jennifer" wrote: "So with that said I'm having a huge shy attack and think that I will return to my spot in the corner listening to and learning from everyone." It was great to hear from you - at last :-) And nice to see your light glimmering from behind that bushel. How about burning the bushel once and for all and joining us in all your glory :-) It's be wonderful to get to know you more. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. - Alfred Adler Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3001 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Principles J J Dewey wrote: "Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" 'How do you balance your chequebook?' or 'How can I best serve?' The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I had enough of a grasp of spiritual principles not to want to ask 'meaning of life' type questions. I would be more interested in asking questions that would assist me live a life that optimized my service to the Grand Plan as I have a horror of missing opportunities to serve. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. - Alfred Adler Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3002 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Principles Yes, Glenys. I was going to say almost the same thing. What can I do to further mankind? Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3003 From: Trixie Subject: Re: Latest list Forgot to add the planet stuff. Sun Cancer Moon Libra Merc Gemini Ven Leo Mars Gemini Quite a mixture, huh?? Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3004 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: I've missed you all! Hi! I'm baaaack.... More cheap drama. Folks, I really need your prayers (and I have been saying the song, believe you me!) I just got back to work today after 5 days of bronchitis and some foreign flu (I say foreign because I had a flu shot, and work with guys who are in and out of the country constantly). And I won't be paid for 13.22 hours of the 24 that I missed this week, and they won't let me borrow any sick time. Need I mention that this is NOT a business built upon the molecular model??? Great company, just terrific.... NOT! Add to that, my car. Something is wrong with the computer, so my regular mechanic can't fix it. It has to go to the dealer (which means AAA is towing it here, there and everywhere). I have my roomate's car, and he is completely stressing about this whole thing. I don't know what I'd do without him, but he gets so worked up over what I consider these minor inconveniences. It makes it about 10 times more stressful than it needs to be. So I may not have a car for a few days. Yes, it's a hassle, but it's not the end of the world. I am bracing myself for a few doses of emotional abuse (I guess his helping me means he feels entitled to dish it out). I keep reminding myself, this too shall pass. Like a kidney stone maybe, but it will. I can't wait to get caught up with the postings and I really appreciate you guys. And I really missed you! Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3005 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: Latest List Tracey Hobson October 20th A Libra-Scorpio-type Libra Garrett, Perhaps we could barter? You do my chart and I do??? Most of my friends would ask me to make my seafood gumbo and a pecan pie. I must have lived in Loooo-zee-anna in another life! :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-06/3006 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: Principles JJ writes: "Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" Why, who killed JFK, of course! :) When I sit here and think about it, I feel certain I would be stunned by the beauty of God, the kindness in the eyes, the radiance... and my eyes would well up with tears of gratitude as I said thanks for loving me no matter what and for confirming that You love me without my having to be religious. Thanks for allowing me to grow up in the mountains where the beauty is simple and elegant and magnificent all at once. I guess right now I'd probably ask God exactly what it is that I have done (in past lives perhaps, or this one) that is making this life so unbearably difficult. Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3007 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Principles Hi Tracey, I think that an unbearable life this go-around is preparing us to take on a really tough job. If we can get past certain things and still have a love of life and of people then we can do just about anything even if it seems insurmountable. When I had a lot of things thrown in my way a few years ago, I remembered the saying that you aren't given anything more than you handle and I said I think God has more faith in me than I do. Keep on keeping on. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3008 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re(2): Principles Thank you, Diane. I've heard that before too (as I stood there shaking my fist at the sky!). Yes, apparently The Big Kahuna must think we are tough stuff, you and I, and I do appreciate your words of encouragement. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3009 From: RDWALLAC@... Subject: Latest List Tracey I too was born on October 20th Ron wallachy Sun- Libra Asc-Leo Moom-Aquarius Venus-Libra Mercury-Libra Neptune-Libra Mars-Sagittarius Lots of Libra in my chart! Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3010 From: Jerry L. Harris Subject: Re: Question of the day J J Dewey wrote: "Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" After getting past the easy ones, like: "Why me?" and After much contemplation, I think I'd ask: How can I face & heal my karma of the past & present and complete my Divine Plan ASAP? Jerry Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3011 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT) Rules For Being Human Rules for Being Human 1. You will receive a body. You may like it or you may hate it, but it will be yours for the entire period. 2. You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in a full-time information school called life. Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons, or you may think they are irrelevant or stupid. 3. There are no mistakes, only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error, of experimentation. The "failed" experiments are as much a part of the process as the experiments that ultimately work. 4. A lesson is repeated until learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it, you can go on to the next lesson. 5. Learning lessons does not end. There is no part of life that does not contain its lessons. If you are alive, there are lessons to be learned. 6. *There* is not better than *here*. When your there becomes a here, you simply will obtain another there that will again look better than here. 7. Others are merely mirrors of you. You cannot love or hate something unless it reflects to you something you love or hate about yourself. 8. What you make of your life is up to you. You have all the resources you need. What you do with them is up to you. The choice is yours. 9. Your answers lie inside you. The answers to life's questions lie inside you. All you need to do is look, listen and trust. 10. You will forget all this. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3012 From: Rick Audette Subject: Principles "Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" I think something like that happened to me. The whole time it's going on, I'm sure I have the answer to all the questions. Then I come back to the, so called, real world and didn't bring anything back that I could put to words. Next time I get to speak to God or other all knowing Masters, I'm going to ask, "what's the WORD". I'm sure I would receive the closest thing to it that I can handle. If I knew the Word, the word would be in me. I would be the WORD and all things would be possible. Or not, but that seems to be a big draw for me. I can't think of any other question that would be more important to me. Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-11/3013 From: Garrett Ward Subject: Re: Question OD "Question of the day: Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" First, you may ask the question, but will the question be answered? The above statement does not even suggest that an answer will be given, merely that a question may be asked. I would be far more interested if the question were phrased like this: *Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that he would answer truthfully any question you asked. What would you ask?* Second, there are an abundance of self proclaimed all knowing masters (the Brother Philos of the world). It is a difficult process to weed out the wannabe all knowing master from the genuine article. There is much deception out there in spiritual circles. If the question were phrased to include an answer, I would probably ask about survival in the here and now. I have heard of the difficulties others on this list are going through, and I also am having a tough time dealing with this. I'm sure there are millions of others going through the same thing. So, my question would be: "How can all who are struggling to survive break the chains of bondage to achieve freedom and prosperity? Please be specific." Garrett (for all you star buffs - the real chart - at least as I understand it) September 9, 1950......7:34 pm......San Jose, CA Sun in Virgo Moon in Leo Mercury in Libra Venus in Virgo Mars in Scorpio Jupiter in Pisces Saturn in Virgo Uranus in Cancer (there you go Glenys!) Neptune in Libra Pluto in Leo [Question: How did Astrology deal with Pluto before it was "discovered" in 1930?] Pisces Rising (or is it ascending?) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3014 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Question OD Well, far be it for me to be left out of this astro game. Actually, Garrett, we have many similarities. 1 September 1954 Sun in Virgo Moon in Libra Mercury in Virgo Venus in Libra Mars in Capricorn Jupiter in Cancer Saturn in Scorpio Uranus in Cancer (can you believe it, Garrett!! It seems we share Uranus :-) Just good luck, I suppose ::-)))) Neptune in Libra Pluto in Leo Leo Rising Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. - Alfred Adler Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3015 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT) Image of Christ? Hi All, I am listening to Art Bell and he has a new image on his website that was taken out of an airplane window in 1963 by a serviceman. Danny sends us this photo taken by a 19-year old serviceman in 1963 of the view outside the airplane window. 2/11/99 Another picture on the site shows an image of: A photo sent to us by Tara and Kathy Thibault of a car accident scene. As bad as this looks, the driver was not hurt. Could it be a "Guardian Angel" sent to save the driver?? This photo was going to be discarded by the press photographer, but Tara thought enough to save it and send it in. 2/8/99 http://www.artbell.com/ghosts4.html Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3016 From: Betty Norem Subject: Re: Latest list Betty Norem - b. March 1 Taurus Asc Aquarius Midheaven Sun in Pisces - 11th House Moon in Capricorn - 9th House Mercury in Aquarius - 10th House Venus in Aries - 12th House Mars in Libra - 6th House Jupiter in Scorpio - 7th House Saturn in Pisces - 11th House Uranus in Aries - 12th House Neptune in Virgo - 5th House Pluto in Cancer - 3rd House Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3017 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Latest list I truly agree, i felt very good vibes at reading you, Jenn. And if a nasty boy like me can post here, you sure can:) (keysters you should see the "mess" i am putting on a french "esoteric" forum i am in;)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3018 From: xavier Subject: Re : Principles my instinctive direct answer (question, rather) Who am I? (or what) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3019 From: xavier Subject: Re : Principles Rick Audette writes: "Let us say that you were visited by an all knowing master, or God itself, and he told you that you could ask any question you wanted. What would you ask?" "I think something like that happened to me. The whole time it's going on, I'm sure I have the answer to all the questions. Then I come back to the, so called, real world and didn't bring anything back that I could put to words. Next time I get to speak to God or other all knowing Masters, I'm going to ask, "what's the WORD". I'm sure I would receive the closest thing to it that I can handle. "If I knew the Word, the word would be in me. I would be the WORD and all things would be possible. Or not, but that seems to be a big draw for me. I can't think of any other question that would be more important to me. Rick" Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3020 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Question OD Well, i don't give my birth date because Rick has a way of wishing for information that I disagree with. I had a long talk with him on icq, and to him to retain knowledge about yourself is to be an adversary of oneness. As I don't wish this list to be used in the future (i see well that your intentions are good, Rick, I just disagree) in any filing thing way, I only give information when i feel like it. Funny that it was YOUR post, GLenys, that made me feel out of something good, and that it was finally appropriate that I expose my motives. Ah, women...LOL Glenys Lowery wrote: "Well, far be it for me to be left out of this astro game. Actually, Garrett, we have many similarities. 1 September 1954 (...)" Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3021 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re : Principles I have another one. If you want the word, it means you want the means to create. then what you need is hard occultism. Bardon (sorry, fan thing) gives the divine word in his "the true kabbala". No bullshit, plain true techniques. It doesn't make me nearer from being an Initiate of the Word, that creates through the word, as God created the world, because you have to have already completed more basic courses to begin that one:) But it's good to know where and what it is. Is this silly and out of the mark? forget it then. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3022 From: J J Dewey Subject: Focus, My Son It sounds like Tracy, Rick, John, Garrett and others are having a rough time at present and the main question on some of your minds is something like: "Why do we have to go through these things?" or "Why is life so hard at times?" The real answer to this lies his in the mystery of the very purpose of mankind which will be revealed in a future book, but suffice it to say that life is very much like a game and we have come into it as willing participants. The problem occurs when we do not understand the rules and therefore our ATTENTION is not on becoming a player. Instead, we are tempted to substitute rules of our own and play a game that we know we can win. This is not, however, what the Higher Self wants and neither do we when we understand. Would Monopoly even be fun if there was no risk of landing on someone else's motel and suffering loss? It is a great game because you take risks and there is a thrill when you win. Life is a little like that, but when we learn the rules and focus all our attention on the part we should be playing then we put all things under our feet as did the Christ and move to a higher level of playing. When life seems out of control it should be a sign to us that we have taken our attention off the part we should be playing. What we need to do is focus on the details (yes, sometimes they are boring details) that will cause circumstances to mold to our good. What happens to many seekers is that they seek after the dream instead of reality and their attention becomes split in two because reality forces us to devote considerable attention on it. We must live our lives with a single focus of attention and then circumstances will work in our favor with greater and greater rapidity. This I have learned through painful experience. That's all I have time for tonight. I'll write more tomorrow. JJ Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3023 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Charging for Spiritual Services J J Dewey wrote: "Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others?" "I find it interesting that some have even criticized me for charging for my book." Charging for spiritual services is an emotionally fraught subject (probably because it involves money) and I accept that my view that in general it's OK would definitely be the minority one. I have problems with separating out the spiritual and the non spiritual because I think everything is spiritual. Also, money is just a form of energy and it can be used and abused like any other energy. It is inherently neutral in itself and our thoughts and feelings about money and those who have/don't have it are a reflection of our underlying beliefs about abundance. I have no problems with viewing money as an energy exchange system in any transaction where I consider it appropriate - and that includes spiritual services which I do not separate out from any other service. If you accept that all is One, including service of any kind, what is the difference between charging for spiritual services and charging for plumbing services. Both could be regarded as necessary. I think everyone is entitled to make a living and if people feel they are able to do this by providing a spiritual service, and others are willing to pay them, then surely it is OK. The alternative could be that an essential spiritual service is not provided because of personal financial constraints. It's the same with spiritual healers. Aren't they entitled to be paid? Why would we hesitate to do so when we would have no hesitation in paying a medical practitioner? What is it that makes one service better or worse than another. And what if someone writes a book offering spiritual advice or support? Does that mean that they can't sell it for a profit? How does someone in this situation earn a living? I dislike profiteering and charlatans just as much as anyone else. But I don't see why spiritual healers, teachers, advisors etc. can't charge for services if they think it's appropriate. I would have thought that the decision should be theirs and it is not up to others to judge their actions (except perhaps with their wallets). I have friends who have given up their jobs because they have felt called to offer spiritual services of some kind. They have tried to exist on donations but don't earn enough to cover their outgoings and so they have to start charging. I don't think a self employed plumber or engineer would earn enough to live on by donations only either and we really wouldn't expect him or her to exist that way. Why should we treat spiritual advisors any differently? Why do we pay enormous money to our politicians and professionals but expect our spiritual leaders to scrape by? I think it shows what warped values we have. In other cultures, the spiritual leaders are revered and all their physical needs taken care off. But we expect our spiritual leaders to make do the best they can and spurn them if they want a decent life. I have no problem with paying proven teachers like JJ for their services. I only wish he could earn enough this way to enable him to give up his day job :-) - and write a book every 6 weeks. It would be me who would be the richer for it. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= If you aim to dispense with method, learn method. If you aim at facility, work hard. If you aim for simplicity, master complexity. ~ author unknown The Way of Chinese Painting Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3024 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Charging for Spiritual Services Glenys writes: "That's a very good point, Glenys. Why would we pay a plumber and not a "man of God"? Is not the plumber also a "man of God"? Not to mention the services provided. And to look at that a little further, why would your house a plumber? Same with the house/body. The body needs plumbers too! Not to mention a government. The body needs a government too. But I wouldn't pay my body's government any more than I would pay the plumber." Thanks, Glenys! That just made my day! "I don't think a self employed plumber or engineer would earn enough to live on by donations only either and we really wouldn't expect him or her to exist that way. Why should we treat spiritual advisors any differently?" Why do we pay enormous money to our politicians and professionals but expect our spiritual leaders to scrape by? I think it shows what warped values we have. In other cultures, the spiritual leaders are revered and all their physical needs taken care off. But we expect our spiritual leaders to make do the best they can and spurn them if they want a decent life." Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3025 From: Lelona Hodges Subject: (O/t) V Day Speaking of the Aquarian business, and my comment that I must be working for one of those companies already, well, leave it to the boss. He actually went out and bought all the women on staff a long stemmed red rose, and the men he brought back chocolate cigars. You should see Christmas around here ! He always gives me a designer teddy bear. I keep one of them in my office, because it's the Albert Einstein bear, with sweater, suspenders and t-shirt that says E=Mc2. Actually, Halloween is the biggest day of the year here. Everyone dresses for the occasion, and we win prizes for the best costume. I won once with an Aunt Jamima costume because it was very original and look very real. If, and when Samu gets back from vacation I may upload the foto to him for you all to see if you'd like to see it. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3026 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Focus, My Son JJ writes: "but suffice it to say that life is very much like a game and we have come into it as willing participants." Thanks, JJ. I enjoyed that insight. I always insite riots when I say this, so I guess it's time for a riot. I think that we not only come into life to play the game as willing participants, but we also participate in the kind of life we have because we WANT to. Many people then say "I would never want to go thru this kind of hell" and deny any responsibility, but in the overview that's exactly what they did, because they wanted the balance of experience, or whatever reason. Then most people say later on that they wouldn't have changed a thing about their life if they could have. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3027 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Re : Re: Question OD Xavier says, "Well, i don't give my birth date because Rick has a way of wishing for information that I disagree with. I had a long talk with him on icq, and to him to retain knowledge about yourself is to be an adversary of oneness." I'd like to clarify what that conversation was about. To me, Love and Knowledge are tied together. Countless experiences have taught me this. If you know the reason behind something, you may still not like it, but you will love it. Our Father, in Heaven, knows all and sees all. Christ taught that we should try to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. I take this to mean that eventually I will know everything that can be known about everything and everybody. I will be able to see through their eyes and hear with their ears. I would know why they do the things they do because I can think with their mind. This does not mean that I do their seeing hearing or thinking for them. It does mean that we are separate but acting as one. We each retain our free will and make our own decisions, but we can see the reason behind what the other does and be more accepting of each other. If an individual is not advanced enough to handle certain information, then it is right to protect them by withholding information. If, on the other hand, a person keeps secrets about themselves, out of fear or shame, I think such secrets keep that person separated from oneness. I think those kinds of secrets are toxic if you hold on to them. How many classic TV plots are based on what was left unsaid. who can name an emotional disturbance that was caused by something other than the failure to let go of something. Someday we will all have the ability to know and see all. Why postpone it any longer? When do you think eternity begins? I think that when someone keeps secrets, they are fighting against oneness. I do my best to be an open book to them and encourage them to do the same with me. If one or both of us sometimes gets hurt in the process, big deal. At least we were trying to act in the name of love. If you think you are keeping a secret, often you are only fooling yourself. Even when they don't let on, most people know a lot more than you think you are telling them and advanced souls know all of it. I am pretty good at sleuthing and if I wanted to I could write a whole page about anyone on this list. Instead, I beg everyone to come out and tell us all more about themselves. Trust me, those that have shared have had the most fun and are the most accepted. Who, among us, has not had a turn at being a lost sheep or the thief on the cross. Remember, they are the ones that Christ said were the most beloved. Notice too that on my list I don't give locations any nearer than the city you live in, even though I have exact street addresses for many. I also am only listing day and month on birthdays, so your age can stay a secret if you wish. The e-mail address is available to everybody anyway. I knew, when I started that some people would be uncomfortable with sharing too much, so I structured the list with them in mind. As for me, I will tell anyone anything they want to know about me. Just ask. Call me curious, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3028 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Re : Re: Question OD Rick Audette wrote: "Xavier says, "Well, i don't give my birth date because Rick has a way of wishing for information that I disagree with. I had a long talk with him on icq, and to him to retain knowledge about yourself is to be an adversary of oneness." "I'd like to clarify what that conversation was about. To me, Love and Knowledge are tied together." Quelle horreur! Xavier, I think he's going to ask us for our weight next!! Oh well, I'm game if you are. 8 1/2 stone (with one foot on the scales :-))) Love Glenys Actually, I see no harm on people being invited to give us their birthdays (although I know it's a ploy to entice JJ's wife, Artie, to zoom around the world to bring us breakfast in bed). It's drawn a lot of lovely people out and helped us get over a bit of a lull. Well done, Ricky! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= If you aim to dispense with method, learn method. If you aim at facility, work hard. If you aim for simplicity, master complexity. ~ author unknown The Way of Chinese Painting Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-12/3029 From: Robin Bryant Subject: Re: Re : Re: Question OD Hi Rick, Alright, you convinced me to say a little something. I am pleased to say that JJ chose me and 4 others to do proofreading for him, although I have not received anything yet. My birthday is Feb 22 with my sun in Pisces in the house of service (6) along with Mercury and Jupiter, rising in Virgo and moon in Aries in the 7th along with Saturn (kind of a drag!). I have a grand trine of earth signs in water houses, and no air in my chart in any sign. Communicating has been a challenge for me as you can well understand. I have Neptune on the ascendant also, Gemini at the midheaven as my way out of my predicament, whatever that might be. Mars in Sag in the 3rd, Venus in Cap in the 4th, Uranus in the 8th. What did I leave out? Pluto is in the 11th or 12th I think - I'm going from memory as I am too lazy to get my file out. If it's important I'll do so. I spent 7 years in Ramtha's American Gnostic School in Yelm, having studied on my own pretty much prior to that for many years. I got to the point where I knew I needed a teacher for initiations as I didn't know how to get them otherwise. It was a choice then between Ramtha and Mafu as they both made themselves known to me at almost the same time, just after I declared that I needed a teacher. I left the school 3 years ago due to physical limitations, knowing also that it was time for me to go out into the world and create my life as I had been taught to do, no longer being a victim due to what I had previously considered outside circumstances over which I had no control. I am satisfied and happy with what I am creating. Once all the garbage settled down I became eager to get involved in more service to others and although I have had this type of job all of my life, I was not conscious of my decisions as I am now. This led me to your list and the red book. There is more developing now as a result of reading the book, but that is in process and I look forward to the answers which are certain to appear. John is very much a part of it as are the Essenes and the community that I share there. Even this e-mail is a part of it. Somehow I know this info does not surprise you. Thanks for your message. Robin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3030 From: Rick Audette Subject: Hi Newbies Hi All, Every post, on this list, has the latest count of the members on the list. I watch each one and am glad when the number goes up and sad when it goes down. I feel a real kinship with all the keysters. Many came by invitations from me. I help many go through the steps to subscribing and get to talk with them before they are even members. I have both Aim95 and ICQ and talk with many, off list. In any given day, I talk with people all over the world. I have been a seeker for over 30 years, but really started learning to understand and accept other ways of thinking when I began getting on line a few years back. Hardly a week goes by that I don't learn more about oneness, through this medium. We don't get side tracked by a person's appearance and the cares of the day do not press as heavy against our conversations, because we can take the time to edit our communications. I am always pleased when I see a member begin to post to the list. If I haven't talked to you, personally, yet, let me now offer a warm welcome to the family to all the folks that have joined. I know I speak for many when I say that there is a certain Oneness, found here, that is greater than any I have yet known and it just keeps getting better. This is a wonderful feeling and I try to share it with everyone here. That is why I keep inviting everyone to tell us more about themselves. There are, however, a large number of members that we still know nothing about. Come on kids. Here's your chance to learn the new math. The more you add to it, the closer it gets to equaling One. There have been lots of aches and pains being felt by the individual members, lately. Maybe a temporary lack of focus, but not as bad as all that. I see us sharing with each other and exchanging messages of light and hope. I, for one, have managed to keep my head above the water because of my focus on what we talk of here. All these tough lessons we've been going through lately are like a divine boot in the butt. But, divine or not, a boot in the butt is an uncomfortable experience that propels us forward. As I think of it, I've heard a bunch of tales of woe, but nary a "why me" or "I don't deserve this". I think many of us have already figured out that class is always in session. Thank you, everybody that has shared, so far. And I love you quiet ones too, even if you aren't ready to share, you at least knew a good place to come, when you found it. Life's a stage and so is this List. There are musicians and poets, orators and back stage hands and then there are the spectators. We all play some primary roles, but also take turns at the other roles. How about a little more audience participation. Big round of applause for everybody here, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3031 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Re : Re: Question OD thanks for clarifying. It was awkward from me to mention your opinions, as i don't know them more than on a surface. But i had to justify my closeness:) And Glenys, I'll go on my way:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3032 From: xavier Subject: Re : Hi Newbies Rick Audette wrote: "I have been a seeker for over 30 years, but really started learning to understand and accept other ways of thinking when I began getting on line a few years back. Hardly a week goes by that I don't learn more about oneness, through this medium. We don't get side tracked by a person's appearance and the cares of the day do not press as heavy against our conversations, because we can take the time to edit our communications." Yes, there is much to do on the net. It works for your evolution in a peculiar way. And the communications are of a particular kind. For me i see that spirit talks on the net lift me up in no time. I know I still have much to understand to define that net thing better. I feel there are "secrets" to learn about net and comp. And yes, nothing compares to a true friendly chat. Maybe that being behind a machine, we need to get personal, loving, in order to share human energies, whereas in the world you are filled with energies anyway and don't need so much to be real friendly and sharing. I'll figure it out trust me on that ^:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3033 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Focus, My Son "but suffice it to say that life is very much like a game and we have come into it as willing participants." I had a dream once about singing on a stage before an audience I couldn't see, but could hear the clapping. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3034 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Re : Re: Question OD Hi Rick Don't mean to blow your whistle, but the wanting to know about the secrets of others seems strange and infringing upon the free will of others. Secrets are never hidden from our Mother/Father/God/Creator because we are in Him and He is in us. To personally acknowledge our secrets to ourselves and then to go through the process of forgiving any and all that is involved is what is important. I used to go to a dogmatic Baptist church where in order to be "saved" one must go forward to the altar and confess one's sins to the whole congregation. I wanted to be "saved" and did as was expected even though it was against my free will. I have never been sorry for "giving up my power to the powers that be" in that particular instance. But I have learned much since that day in August 1973 and now try to be careful about handling my power, about not taking another's power nor giving my own unwisely. Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3035 From: Anni Ida West Subject: Charging for spiritual teachings? Hi all you wonderful people, I have not been a member for very long, and I am still waiting impatiently for Book 2 , but I thought I would like to say hello to all of you. I met Mindy and Xavier and 2 or 3 more of you on SWC a few weeks ago and they told me (nickname Renata) about "The Immortal". Thank you Xavier, Mindy and everybody else. This is the best thing that has happened to me in my 25 years of searching for the truth! I sing the song one or two times every day now and I would like to say: THANK YOU JJ for giving us this song - it is pure magic! If it is ok to take your attention I would like to tell you how it has helped me incredibly. I work together with a few other people as a student counselor and one of my colleagues is a very dominating woman who wants to be in control of EVERYTHING all the time - and we are supposed to be equals. I have often had a very difficult time with her and it is getting to me so much that recently I have been sick for 2 weeks (stress the doctor said). The day after I started singing the song I felt better than ever at work, and after two days I realized that I was not threatened at all by my dominating colleague any more - I hardly heard her orders and dominating words - and when I did, I just did not react any more - I continued my work and ignored her. I don't know if any of you can imagine what a relief that is? I don't have to be hard on her and I don't have to feel abused. I just do not care - it is her problem! And I still like her good sides. It happened from one day to another, and I am sure it is the song protecting me against the negative vibes! I have a small problem about getting my e-mails when I am at home, so maybe I am a little bit late on this subject, but I would like to give a small comment on JJ's question: "Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others?" I think there should be some kind of balance between a teacher and a student. If the teacher is "giving" all the time and the student is "receiving" all the time there is no balance. A student who is receiving all the time is more inclined to feel a debt towards the teacher. This might make it more difficult for the student to ask and follow his own heart and soul. Money is one way to create a balance, but I am sure there are others as well. May light and love follow every one of you - dear family. Anni Post No. keys-1: /1999-02-13/3036 From: xavier Subject: welcome Anni :) :D Anni Ida West writes: "Hi all you wonderful people, I have not been a member for very long, and I am still waiting impatiently for Book 2 , but I thought I would like to say hello to all of you. I met Mindy and Xavier and 2 or 3 more of you on SWC a few weeks ago and they told me (nickname Renata)" Great to hear from you Renata. So you've been reading the list? Where are you now, did you catch up the messages and topics in progress? "about "The Immortal". Thank you Xavier, Mindy and everybody else. This is the best thing that has happened to me in my 25 years of searching for the truth!" hahahhaha there you are :) we knex you would fit in, we felt wonderful vibes about you:) "I sing the song one or two times every day now and I would like to say:" wow then you are really in. Remember? We felt you were already in while we chatted, you sounded truly familiar, like a well known friend:) no wonder:) "THANK YOU JJ for giving us this song - it is pure magic! If it is ok to take your attention I would like to tell you how it has helped me incredibly. I work together with a few other people as a student counselor and one of my colleagues is a very dominating woman who wants to be in control of EVERYTHING all the time" good, challenges! A nice bit of things to work! :) "- and we are supposed to be equals. I have often had a very difficult time with her and it is getting to me so much that recently I have been sick for 2 weeks (stress the doctor said). The day after I started singing the song I felt better than ever at work, and after two days I realized that I was not threatened at all by my dominating colleague any more - I hardly heard her orders and dominating words - and when I did, I just did not react any more - I continued my work and ignored her. I don't know if any of you can imagine what a relief that is? I don't have to be hard on her and I don't have to feel abused. I just do not care" congratulations, i'm speechless:) "- it is her problem! And I still like her good sides. It happened from one day to another, and I am sure it is the song protecting me against the negative vibes!" :) you can be a good teacher here :) "I have a small problem about getting my e-mails when I am at home, so maybe I am a little bit late on this subject, but I would like to give a small comment on JJ's question:" you can check the spiritweb archive, password immortal, to check if your email is late. "Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others? I think there should be some kind of balance between a teacher and a student. If the teacher is "giving" all the time and the student is "receiving" all the time there is no balance. A student who is receiving all the time is more inclined to feel a debt towards the teacher. This might make it more difficult for the student to ask and follow his own heart and soul. Money is one way to create a balance, but I am sure there are others as well." "May light and love follow every one of you - dear family. Anni" i like Anni better than renata. Annie is my mother's name:) Need it to be said that you're a great partner for all the listees? I hope it sounds for everyone:) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3037 From: xavier Subject: ICQ Anni and all. BTW Anni and all, have a try at ICQ. my number is 24617686, tho i'm a bit close lately:) you can message me and i'll give you other numbers after having requested to their owner. a message sent while i'm offline will be memorized by the icq server and given to me when i check. Rick is always (almost) there and greatly available for friendly chat, thanks Rick :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3038 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: welcome Anni :) :D Xavier writes: "Need it to be said that you're a great partner for all the listees? I hope it sounds for everyone:)" That's right, Xavier, sounds like Annie will be great for all of us who have been here from the beginning or close to it. It's always good to have a fresh point of view and new enthusiasm. *Welcome*, Annie, thanks for joining the list and for sharing your story with us. I was inspired by it. I hope you will get book 2 soon. I've read books 1 and 2 three times already, and now that it has sat for about a month I' ready to read it again. I know I'll get more out of it each time I read it. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3039 From: (Richard/ Sharon) Subject: Brand new We are one day old to the list, while I (Sharon) have been on a constant search of, why I have always felt so out-of-place on earth, most of my life (at least it seems so), my husband (Rich) just jumped in like a duck to water, we wanted to add our 2 cents on the question of charging for spiritual teachings, there should (not a good word, but can't come up with another) always be an energy for energy exchange, and if we feel the teaching is worth anything, being concerned about money seems very limiting, and would seem to diminish the value of the acceptance of the teaching. Hope it's okay for listers so very new to butt in so soon, but this is an important point for us, and until we create the teachings ourselves, we choose to give value for value Blessings, and have a powerful day, Sharon & Rich ^I^ Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3040 From: J J Dewey Subject: Recognizing the Problem I am always warmed to hear your experiences with the Song, especially new participants as Anni. Welcome to the group. Let me remind you that I am experimenting with answering questions two days (or postings) old rather than one day. This will give us more time to think about it and also allow us the opportunity to field some more general questions in between. The Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others? I was glad to see that your answers were very close to the comment I am giving out to you today. First let me clarify the reason I asked this question. I did not have something in the back of my mind about charging the group here for the teachings I am presently offering free. I am happily doing this with no reservations. The reason I did ask it is that the charging of money is a big problem with many on the spiritual path and it is important that we clarify the principle behind it. Some students criticize anyone who charges for anything spiritual, and others who desire to teach or heal often find themselves desperate for money; they often have to leave their labor of love because they did not charge enough or gave too much away. I personally a problem with this principle because of the words of the Master himself. He said: "Freely you have received, freely give." Matt 10:8 Because of this statement I considered for a good portion of my life that it would be wrong to charge for spiritual teachings; but then when I realized that we are coming into a new age and that business is one of the key principles in this age I began to adjust my thinking. Actually the principles are the same, but the application of them differs from age to age. What Jesus was talking about when he said "freely you have received" was the power to heal the sick. He transferred the power to the apostles and because they had done little or nothing to earn it on their own they had little right to charge for it. Secondly, Jesus did not ask the apostles for money for what he gave them, but he did ask them to give their lives, which was a greater payment than all that any person has in the way of material goods. This age is different, however. The prime emphasis on the spiritual teachers of this time is not sacrifice, but service with the principle of cause and effect in mind. The positive lessons of sacrifice will be eternally used, but will not be the focus in the coming age. In the days of Jesus and the early church everything was accomplished through sacrifice. The disciples sacrificed money by giving healing and teachings away free. On the other hand, the populace sacrificed their money by donating to the disciples of their own free will. Thus the needs of the teachers were taken care of without the mentioning of money. The teachers received money and supplies even though they did not directly charge. In this age we have to examine the disbursement of spiritual teachings (actually all things of value) through the focus of service. The principle for the age of Aquarius is this: "As I serve my brothers and sisters I receive payment according to the value of my service. I may take that payment in money or I may take it through other means, but I see that when I create cause, like effect is at the door. I do not seek to gather to myself more than the effects that I create." In this age all those who serve, whether they be spiritual teachers or brick layers, are entitled to receive a just payment for their labor or products they sell. A spiritual teacher may or may not charge depending on circumstances and needs. In this forum I am not charging you for my words of advice or teaching, but I feel rewarded in many ways other than money. Because I am not charging you, those who feel they are learning things of value will feel a responsibility begin to grow as a seed within themselves and this seed will eventually sprout into good works. Some of you will start groups, forums and become teachers in your own right, and that will be a great reward for me to see you do this. Such reward is passed up the line to the Brotherhood and payment much greater than money is passed along through the Oneness Principle. Nevertheless, the spiritual teacher must see to it that enough of his labor is recompensed on the physical level that his needs are taken care of, for we are not sent out into the world today as were the early disciples of the Piscean Age. They were sent out with no change of clothes, and no money, and were taken care of by the people they taught from town to town. This is not the Aquarian way. The Aquarian way is to create a service of value so you can charge what you need for your physical comforts. The true Aquarian does not seek riches for riches' sake. He seeks riches for the whole and allows himself wealth as he serves the group good. The incorrect extreme for those seeking the Spiritual path is to seek unlimited wealth through teaching that elevates your status on the physical plane much above your students. The true teacher will dedicate his excess abundance not to self, but to the benefit of the whole in the way he sees best. Thus, if someone gave me a Rolls Royce so I could ride around in style superior to my friends, I would sell it and use it for promoting the book. The true Aquarian seeks no more in reward than that which is the just effect of his service (cause). Remember when we speak of Aquarian and Pisces in this context, we are taking about the energies affecting the ages and not your individual signs. People born under a Pisces or Aquarian sun both have their positive and negative aspects. But now as the energies of Aquarius are being released, it becomes a positive thing for us to adapt to them no matter what our chart reads. Let me remind you that we are still on the three key words of Aquarius: (1) Service (2) Business and (3) Law. We have finally covered the business aspect and I hope we have demonstrated that the destiny of business is not to be an evil force as Hollywood loves to portray, but that it will produce a great good for the entire planet. Business will be a force that will manifest equality, sharing, abundance, peace on earth good will toward humankind, and even ecological balance in nature. If you do not believe this, I again ask you to follow the progress that business fairness and principles have achieved over the past 100 years. If the progress continues over the next 100 years we should have near utopia circumstances. The third key word for Aquarius is Law and law is created by our politicians and enforced through our court system. Finally, the law breakers are punished through our jail system, which unfortunately is becoming a big business by itself. The most important point of reform should therefore be the cause of all of our laws, which would be the political system; and this reform will begin in the United States and spread around the world. Before we talk about how the political system will be reformed let us first discover what is wrong with it. Therefore, let me ask these questions to produce seed material. Do our politicians create too many laws or not enough? Are we taxed too much or not enough? Do our elected officials do too much or not enough? Do our elected officials represent the will of the people as we desire or other wills? Do government programs try to do too much for people or not enough? Do our elected officials seek to please their party leaders or the good of the country as a whole? Let us follow the advice from A Course in Miracles: "Let me Recognize the Problem so it can be Solved." (Lesson 79) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-13/3041 From: Jerry L. Harris Subject: Re: Charging for Spiritual Services J J Dewey wrote: "Question: Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others? I find it interesting that some have even criticized me for charging for my book." (I started this Saturday morning, and only finished it this afternoon at 4:45 p.m., after JJ posted his comments. I still wish to share this with the list.) Jerry New thoughts keep occurring to me on this subject. I am reminded about spiritual discussions I've been involved in as a seeker for decades. "The 2+ Process* " *("For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20) of teaching in a one-on-one situation usually seems to emanate from one of the two parties for a while. Then the other party either asks a profound question or makes a profound statement. This statement or question is often beyond the level of which that person has knowledge. I guess I would call this process "talking over our heads". As "the 2+ process" goes on, each person often is learning, even from the statements coming from their own mouth! "The 2+ process" often grows and accelerates into dimensions heretofore not in our awareness. It's as if "the 2+ process" itself makes an opening in time and space and greater wisdom and knowledge presents itself. The "student" becomes the teacher when this gets going, especially if the teacher "gets out of the way" & plays the game. It is then perceived that a new energy is flowing, and that the two are "riding" that energy. You could call it the "Holy Spirit". I find it can happen in any conversation where one can really listen. Good quality listening (with desire) seems to empower the teacher "speaker" and bring new higher ideas if the parties are open to this. I have observed this process even in Aerospace engineering discussions, where information I didn't even know was coming from my mouth, and I was in the position of amazed observer. The other party thought that I actually knew that stuff. One time it was about the biology of the moon. I didn't have a conscious clue about the subject, but what was said elicited the needed information from the other person who was an "expert" in moon biology. In that case, I received the information from Him and through me. It proved useful in the project we were working on. So, "the 2+ process" seems to really be a Tai Chi sort of plus and minus thing, with each participant alternating between the Plus polarity when ideas are emanating from him, and the Minus polarity when listening to ideas. I have been involved in this process numerous times. So we can be riding the wave of "alternating current" to use a metaphor, while we are dialoging. The "student" often becomes the "teacher" when the Tai Chi kicks in, if both are open to it happening. That's why I have to call it "the process". The Tai Chi process is no "respector of persons" when it is allowed to happen. Even the student can, if allowed, come up with glorious "Pearls of Wisdom". Then the teacher has the joy of participating from the other side of the discussion. I have recently participated in learning how to be a facilitator in community issues. As a facilitator, you are not allowed to take sides, but just stay on topic, and "pull" the best thoughts from each of the participants. This is the role of a traffic cop, where you also hold back the "red sea" of vigorous talkers, to provide space for the "lurkers" who usually are saving their Pearl of Wisdom, but need someone to ride shotgun while they can speak from the depths of a wisdom only they have! It can be a beautiful experience to have a place for each one to contribute. Such is this list, a place of contemplation and for the writer, a continuum of ideas can just keep flowing forth! The next level of the one-on-one conversation is with a group of three ("the 2+ process"). Doesn't this sound like: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Definition of name: I have seen the word "nature" equated to "name" in interpreting spiritual work. You could now see "where two or three are gathered together in my (nature), there I am". So, the nature of Jesus/Joshua would be like a suit of clothes that we could wear. It would be the qualities of the Master. Therefore, the more "we could be like him" (i.e. Kind, Strong, Loving, Principled, Joyful, . . . all the God qualities we can outpicture and hold on to.), the more that the spirit is available to & through us. That is, the Holy Spirit, or the Christ Spirit is among us, inspiring us when we are seeking in the Light, or when we are just seeking in a positive lawful manner, . . . the subject of the day? In a classroom or seminar situation, haven't we noticed that some of the best learning takes place when questions and answers are allowed. I learned many moons ago that my classes got pepped up with interaction between the students & teacher. The earlier that I deviated from prepared text material, the earlier the class began to truly sing! I found that this happened when I "got out of the way" and realized that I was Not the teacher, just the "conductor" for the teachings, and that the more I allowed good interaction, and worked from the inspiration coming to/through me, the more it happened in the student population, and I was now the student & facilitator. This happened over and over. The time also sped by, and the one hour class seemed to take only 5 minutes. By the way, the "prepared text" always got covered, but not consciously. It was a most humbling experience, and I also found when spiritual subjects/projects were being covered, that I (in retrospect) felt that I was somewhere else, like the "New Jerusalem". I didn't get pictures, but I felt very uplifted and healed of whatever problem I had at the beginning of the class/session. (The class got their "light" according to their particular individual vibration during the class.) I'm rambling on here, and will try to close with an observation: This internet conversation, which seems to take "time", feels remarkably like a conversation. Perhaps its an especially thoughtful "conversation" where we actually have the time to phrase our thoughts and feelings, but we seem to be brothers and sisters on "The Path", each uniquely contributing our perspective. And I value each one's perspective, especially that of us "lurkers". I'm now trying to enter in (on this list) to share whenever I feel an inner prompting. I'm noticing that after sending a "complete" post to the list, that more ideas keep coming as each of us contributes to the list. So, even "the widows mite" contributed to this list can make a powerful contribution and "leaven the whole loaf" of us Keysters. Its like each of us is a note on the keyboard, and we each have our time and space to "be played" and to marvel at what has been given each of us to contribute to this "Whole Loaf". I'm trying to answer the question: "Is it right or wrong to charge for spiritual teachings in this age? Or should there be a charge in some circumstances, but not in others?" A good argument can be made, and has, that under the right circumstances, it may be right to charge for spiritual teachings. There certainly are many other types of teachings for which a legitimate charge is made, so why not for a "Higher" teaching. I have had the experience of contributing a "Tithe" of 10% of earnings to a spiritual organization, but the time came, when I could no longer support that organization, due to changes which came to my attention and which I could not ignore. So I stopped tithing and "moved on" as they say. My/our free will has to come into play, and I need to feel that I am receiving "value" when paying for spiritual teachings as I would for food, etc. I think the answer to the question might go something like this: As long as the payee feels that he/she is getting value for the contribution, then "balance" is kept in the "transaction" by paying with the coin that he has or can negotiate. Perhaps "Value" is the key word here. That which I value, I am obliged to compensate for. Of course, the bigger picture may allow each of us to pay in whatever way/(coin) we are able. Some may use dollars. Some may use volunteering & give of their time & abilities. Some may carry an obligation for a time (perhaps even "guilt") and discharge it with a particular deed or deeds at a later time. is this carrying some karma until it is balanced in our energy field? Payment seems to me to be an individual thing and the "student" should try to arrange for whatever the student can do/contribute comfortably with the assent of the teacher. In an opera by Gilbert & Sullivan is the Lord High Executioner's song "Let the punishment fit the crime". One might restate this to be: "Let the Teaching merit the perceived value" or Let the Student perceive the Value - - and act accordingly". We can play with other versions. Does this shoe fit? Does it fit better than my earlier post? I hope this shoe fits all sizes. Regards, Jerry Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3042 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Recognizing the Problem JJ writes: "Therefore, let me ask these questions to produce seed material." "Do our politicians create too many laws or not enough?" YES "Are we taxed too much or not enough?" YES "Do our elected officials do too much or not enough?" NOT ENOUGH "Do our elected officials represent the will of the people as we desire or other wills?" OTHER "Do government programs try to do too much for people or not enough?" NOT ENOUGH Do our elected officials seek to please their party leaders or the good of the country as a whole?" PARTY LEADERS I have no further comment on those questions. Maybe I should be more involved in the running of our country, other than voting for those I want to run it for me, but government and politicians are not a main interest of mine, mostly not even remote. I pay whatever tax I am asked to pay, and I have not, as yet, asked what happens to the tax I pay. Maybe I should. I was more concerned about members on this list who don't live in the United States, like Xavier and Glenys, who may be speechless on this subject, although if change begins in the US and spreads through the world then eventually the changes the US makes will reach their country, but perhaps not in their lifetime. I just hope there will not be less activity on this list due to the subject at hand. But, like Glenys said, we can always talk about something else, while others are talking about the subject presented by JJ. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3043 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Something else And speaking of talking about something else, I found the page in the BOOK: Page 204: "Now I will give a piece of advice that will only make sense to those who are in the process of awakening the full personality: Practice putting two and two together and see what you come up with. This statement will have meaning to those who are ready." In context, John and Elizabeth are talking about waking the mind, and Elizabeth asks "So how does one awaken the mind?" John says: "There is no easy method", said John. "It happens gradually over a period of many lifetimes. About the best you can do in any lifetime is to listen to the highest part that resides within yourself and follow its direction. If you do, you will be working on your next step, whatever it is supposed to be. Now I will give a piece of advice......." So I ask, is anyone on this list in the process of awakening the full personality, and do you know what putting two and two together means? Just wondering, LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3044 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Recognizing the Problem Hi LeLona (very pretty name) I have only found my way to this list about 2 weeks ago, (had trouble getting signed up in Spiritweb) but I received the Chapters from the beginning 2 years ago and look forward to Book 3. However your first two questions and answers seem to produce a paradox. I believe I do understand your meaning in the answers, however I also found some humor in them. Especially when it comes to the government, humor is rare. JJ writes: "Therefore, let me ask these questions to produce seed material. Do our politicians create too many laws or not enough?" YES (even the politicians don't really know what they are doing) "Are we taxed too much or not enough?" YES (I have heard over the years that taxation is really illegal and some have succeeded in winning cases against the IRS because of an old law that was never changed.) the best position to be in is have income so low, that the IRS gets tired of monkeying with paper that produces no tax year after year and send out an official exemption from filing taxes. I got one this year. YaaaaaaaY!!!!! Love and Light to all Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3045 From: Marylin Adams Subject: Re: Something else-putting 2+2 together It could be about the universal law of opposites possibly: dark and light up and down inside and outside thought vs no thought Or how about cause and effect? This is one of the areas that I can feel the answer within me, but am unable to express it verbally. Would like to know what others think Marylin Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3046 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Something else LeLona says, "So I ask, is anyone on this list in the process of awakening the full personality, and do you know what putting two and two together means?" The answer is given four paragraphs earlier. "He will be capable of putting several apparently unrelated facts together under what is called a principle." In my own "book", the Do-It-Yourself Guide, I made this observation: "The third dimension can not be shown accurately with a single two-dimensional perspective. To create a 3-D photograph, you need two views, from slightly different angles, of the same scene, which when seen independently by the two eyes and then combined in the brain, create the illusion of depth. Now, in comparison, the realm of Heaven is one of infinite and eternal dimensions. As such, it cannot be accurately depicted by our limited, three-dimensional, physical world. Any description of Heaven, given from a single point of view and using three-dimensional terms, will be a distortion of the Real Truth. Even Christ, in His attempts to describe Heaven to mortals, was bound by these limitations. In order to describe Heaven, He used, not one but, a whole collection of analogies or parables to produce, in effect, an enhanced, stereoscopic view." The putting of two and two together would be where we combine multiple images or parables, in our mind, to get the principle. As long as we are using math, for our analogy, let me add to it. In the mathematics of fractals, a simple formula, when reiterated ad infinitum, can produce a very complex, organic looking form. This process is what converts the code in our DNA into a complete body. Like all math, the process works both ways. They have a way of reducing a complex form down to the simple fractal formula that created it. This math can be applied to Satellite photos to determine if there are any camouflaged man made objects hidden within natural surroundings. If you were to take every parable in the New Test. that started with, "The kingdom of God is like...", and put them all together on one page, read them over and over, you might suddenly have an insight of what the principles being explained are. 2+2=1 Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3047 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Something else Rick Audette writes: "is anyone on this list in the process of awakening the full personality, and do you know what putting two and two together means?" The answer is given four paragraphs earlier. "He will be capable of putting several apparently unrelated facts together under what is called a principle." There's that "fact and principle" we were just talking about! Are you saying then, Rick, that you are in the process of awakening the full personality? What does that mean to you? The first thing that comes to me when I read this is the word *personality*. To me personality is a transitory identity related to each lifetime. Maybe I'm wrong. But with that definition in my mind I'm hard pressed to discover why I would even want to awaken the full personality, unless a *full personality* refers to the entire personalities one has had since creation, but still I see that as being carried by the soul, so I'm confused here. "In my own "book", the Do-It-Yourself Guide," Your own book? You mean your own writings? I enjoyed your observations so much that I decided to carry them forward in my reply so others wouldn't have to go back to see what they were. Thank you, Rick, for sharing. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3048 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Recognizing the Problem Marylin Adams writes: "I have only found my way to this list about 2 weeks ago, (had trouble getting signed up in Spiritweb) but I received the Chapters from the beginning 2 years ago and look forward to Book 3." So how did you find the list? I like your signon name! If you've had the book for 2 years has it made any changes in your life? Or I should say, have you changed anything in your life since reading it? "However your first two questions and answers seem to produce a paradox. I believe I do understand your meaning in the answers, however I also found some humor in them. Especially when it comes to the government, humor is rare." YES :) Government is a paradox, isn't it? LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3049 From: Rick Audette Subject: Re: Something else "The first thing that comes to me when I read this is the word *personality*. To me personality is a transitory identity related to each lifetime. Maybe I'm wrong. But with that definition in my mind I'm hard pressed to discover why I would even want to awaken the full personality, unless a *full personality* refers to the entire personalities one has had since creation, but still I see that as being carried by the soul, so I'm confused here." Looking back at p.204, John says we are talking about the mind and not the brain. To me this refers to the soul (relatively timeless) and not the persona adopted within a given lifetime. "Are you saying then, Rick, that you are in the process of awakening the full personality? What does that mean to you?" Isn't that what we are all doing? I think (and feel in my heart) that that is what I'm doing. Slowly but surely I have been getting results, so I am inclined to think that my hypothesis is proving to be true. "Your own book? You mean your own writings?" Yes, I started out to write a book, a couple of years ago. It is not something I have any plans to publish (might put it on a web page sometime though). I figured it was a never ending story. It is basically my attempt to put the whole idea of what God and Heaven is about into down to earth terminology, free of any religious dogma, sort of a blue collar approach. It is based on my own experiences and because of my own findings I am attracted to JJ's teachings. I have shared parts of it from time to time on this list and others. Anybody that wants can freely copy and share anything that I have posted. Maybe my way of explaining something will make sense to someone else and help them in ways that other writings didn't. If so, it was worth the effort and that is all the payment I need for this service. In your service, Rick Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3050 From: Jerry L. Harris Subject: Re: Recognizing the Problem I'll try to comment on these great questions: J J Dewey wrote: "Before we talk about how the political system will be reformed let us first discover what is wrong with it. Therefore, let me ask these questions to produce seed material. Do our politicians create too many laws or not enough?" Ideally, we as a people and nation should be growing spiritually to an Inner Directed, more sensitive kind of living. Therefore, as we progress through Aquarius, we should need fewer laws, because we would be guided by the higher inner law. However, in 1999, we have a way to go, and except for any members of royalty, in our nation, we citizens must be guided and corralled by the current law. Our politicians need to be responsive to the greater needs of all citizens to live in a free society, unthreatened by our neighbor or our government. So the balancing act goes on, and we can only afford so many prisons. Fortunately, we can vote politicians in or out. Unfortunately, we need an better, unfiltered media to find the truth. Thank God for the Internet to hear any side of a political argument that the mainstream media doesn't wish to deliver. Beyond that, we must find our intuition and get it working and heeded by ourselves. "Are we taxed too much or not enough?" As long as the populace wants not to stand on their own, and they think that a centralized government can do better for them we therefore would need to tax ourselves more. However, when the government's 15% handling charge on our tax money grows too much, the system breaks down into a socialist redistributionist organization which has failed most recently, big time, in Soviet Russia. So Balance is the "middle" way which we seem to find via a "zig-zag" course between elections. When our states taxes rise too high, businesses move away, as they have been doing from California for years. When I left Orange County the sales taxes were 7.75% and higher in L.A. State taxes were on the high side as well. "Oh to walk the middle way". "Do our elected officials do too much or not enough?" Hard to tell with the mainstream media as a news source. I for one think that this past year has been great, as economically the nation and markets did well with little new interference from our politicians. I think they should just take more vacations. So it appears that they usually do too much. We probably have many old laws on the books that are counter-productive to present day needs. "Do our elected officials represent the will of the people as we desire or other wills?" With election costs so high, lobbyists with money have far too much influence in our politics. Its really hard for the "will" of the people to find a voice with action forthcoming behind that voice. So much TV demagoguing and hatred seems to spill out of Washington, that many people tune out and the lobbyists prevail while the people are given sugar coated pills as "spin". The only sure course seems to be to follow my intuitions after trying to gather the true facts. "Do government programs try to do too much for people or not enough?" It depends on how old you are or what political "group" you are in which politicians can identify. Then they build a "program". The Free Enterprise method has been doing a pretty good job of responding to peoples wants & needs in the Computer & Information areas. If it isn't Microsoft, its Yahoo or something else. Huge fortunes have been paid to those business people who have changed the way we computer users live and work. The true spirit of our Constitution, I believe, is more of a "free will", free enterprise approach to life. The business model of today usually finds a way to serve the market niches where more than a few people wish to partake. There still seems to be a need for government to very, very carefully create fair programs where there is a social need that the market can't or won't serve. These programs, however, often even deter possible business entry into those captured markets, like "public education". The voucher system seems to threaten the "public school system", judging from the noise coming from politicians who thrive on power loaned to them by their constituents. Yet they are loathe to allow comparisons or actual experiments with the "free choice" voucher system. "Do our elected officials seek to please their party leaders or the good of the country as a whole?" "This appears to be a pendulum reaction, which swings with the latest wind. Hopefully, the process works, and the bad leaders eventually are found out and removed at an election. I think we have to rely on that wonderful document the U.S. Constitution. It serves silently, allowing us some measure of peace in our homes, and yet requiring participation if we are to keep it working, for dark forces are always attacking it as it is a self curing mechanism, with the 3 departments wielding power and checking abuses when they are extremely serious. I hope it continues. "Let us follow the advice from A Course in Miracles: "Let me Recognize the Problem so it can be Solved." (Lesson 79)" As an engineer, to me, this is always a requirement before attacking (solving) the problem. The analysis, however, can wake up sleeping dogs who often attack the messenger rather than the problem. So its healthy to just state the problem and try to solve it in a non attached way (impersonally) and that way the messenger doesn't have to expire on the job. Regards to all, Jerry Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-15/3051 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Recognizing the Problem Lelona Hodges wrote: "I was more concerned about members on this list who don't live in the United States, like Xavier and Glenys, who may be speechless on this subject," Me, speechless! Perish the thought :-)) Actually, I appreciate your concern, LeLona, but I've got used to the emphasis on American happenings and viewpoints during my time on the Net - it's the nature of the Beast :-) The upside is that I learn lots about the US and the American psyche; the downside is that I have to endure the idiocy of American political life such as the endless Clintongate saga. It's strange for us NZ'ers because it would never happen here. Not that our politicians are any different but we aren't really interested in their sex lives and would certainly never spend tens of millions of dollars investigating them. It just serves to add to the huge credibility problem Kiwis have with the US administration which peaked a few years ago when the US chose to impose economic sanctions (just like Iraq) on us because we declared ourselves nuclear free and wouldn't allow nuclear ships in our territorial waters. We were also frozen out of other activities and berated and bullied in the United Nations and other international forums. All of which only strengthened our resolve (a point on which those who believe that economic sanctions work could ponder). So much for the US treatment of friends and allies. But as with so many things, it worked to the country's advantage as it was a real wake up call which has helped us mature as a nation. Our role models proved to have feet of clay and now we're content to make our own mistakes instead of mimicking the mistakes of others :-) But I digress.....certainly some of the specifics of the molecular business and I guess, molecular politics and law, don't relate to NZ. But it's a matter of separating out the facts from the principles and it is clear that the principles JJ describes are applicable just about everywhere. Our political system is different to that of the US but the principles on which it is based are the same (although we don't have a written constitution, much of what is in your constitution is enshrined in our law). So...we are over-regulated by politicians who, in the main, work hard but mostly for their own interests and those of their parties rather than the people who voted them in. Some say we're overtaxed but I think what they're really saying is that the taxes we pay are used inappropriately to prop up a system that is barely functioning. It's election year here and I will probably vote for a party that proposes to increase taxes as the extra money will be targeted to health and housing programs. Of course, I'm cynical but feel I must support the party that appears to promote social equality even if it fails to deliver countless times. So, in spite of your kind concern, LeLona, I'm interested in what JJ and everyone else has to say on molecular politics and law because I recognize that it's one of the cornerstones of the new society. It's interesting to me that it's come up at a time when I'm being cajoled into taking a more active interest in national politics here. So far I've avoided it like the plague but the nudges have been getting stronger. Maybe this discussion will help me make up my mind.. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= For what has been -thanks For what shall be - yes - Dag Hammerskjold Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-14/3052 From: Brian Weis Subject: Re: Something else LeLona Hodges writes: "So I ask, is anyone on this list in the process of awakening the full personality, and do you know what putting two and two together means?" And they told two friends, and so on, and so.......... ~B. Post No. keys-l: /1999-02-15/3053 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: [Fwd: A personal message from Glenn Kimball] This site is well worth a look at if you're interested in ancient writings. Love Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= For what has been - thanks For what shall be - yes - Dag Hammerskjold Ancient Manuscripts Mailing List - http://www.ancientmanuscripts.com Thank you all for your kind interest. I will be speaking to a large group in Dallas Texas on April 24. This address will be open to the public and is sponsered by a speaker's bureau who have wanted to meet Art Bell Guests. More details will be forwarded in the future. Many of you do not understand some of the books being offered on the site. We only have a handful of Holy Kingdoms left in hard cover. They are the last ones available in this country. They will be collector's items because there will be no more hard covers printed, The Ancient American Magazine did an unbelievable job of photographing the stone carvings of Jesus in ancient America. If you haven't seen them you will be floored. That issue is located on the site www.ancientmanuscripts.com. We have added the works of Dr. Rocco Erico in recent days. This is critical. He has the only copy of the Holy Bible from the Vatican written in the ancient Arimaic that I know. His traslations are a must for all those who want and need the Bible before it was translated into the Greek. These are only available on our site. In addition we have the greatest book on the Templars that I know. Don't miss this one. It will floor you. My second book Hidden Politics of the Crucifixion is out and available. The following is my personal review: AN AUTHOR'S NOTE The cricifixion of Jesus was the most important event in the un