1999 - WEEK 2 Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2429 From: xavier Subject: Re : Opening the Door J J Dewey wrote: "Jesus was a good and righteous man, but the Dark Ones saw that all that power to good could be transformed into a power for the dragon of self." "Matt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (An adversary) Matt 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. Matt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Matt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Matt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matt 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." "These three temptations all seem harmless enough and the adversary even quoted scripture in an attempt to deceive Jesus just as Hitler was deceived with it. Even the third one could be justified with the rationalization of "think of all the good I could do if I ruled the world." "Why would it have caused the downfall of Jesus if he had yielded to these three illusions? Furthermore, what is the illusion behind each of them?" Obviously The first one is maya: physical hunger overcoming spiritual purpose. The second one, being saved by angels because I am the son of God, is glamour: I am so good and beloved I can do anything and I'll be saved. Glamour: being too good to be responsible? The third one: rule the world and worship me, would be illusion: "I am the chosen one, I am the ruler of the world ; I must worship the prince of the world to rule it" Illusion: I deserve power whatever the way I handle it, and the ends justify the means. I am king. (Hitler must have had much of this one) Illusion: I must worship the spirit of the world to be able to act on the world. Also: Power is through might, physical rulership. Jesus' mission worked so much against that belief, to the point of his crucifixion because he refused to rule and be a military chief. If he had yielded to hunger, he would have been unable to cope with the tests of his mission: There have been challenges much higher than physical needs, not to mention the "incarnation" of the Logos (God) in him :) A man dominated by his physical instincts just can't be of big utility for Humankind, every politician, working 16 hours a day, needs a discipline to be able to work so much. Not to mention a spiritual instructor like Jesus. No way. If he had yielded to the second one "I'm so good, loved by God, that the angels will save me if I fall". It's like a kid thing: I'm not responsible, and I don't carry myself, and I am so lovable that I will be protected. It's ok for a kid, because a child is indeed dependant of his parents, but for a man with a mission, sounds silly! ::)) Much narcissism. I am the chosen, and I look at myself, and love myself, Oh my God I am so good. The point here is that one believes God will act miraculously where it's my duty to act with human mean, forgetting that man is god's hand on earth. And that that hand has to carry all the limitations of physical incarnation. In some way :) There could be a discussion on the answers Jesus gave to Satan too, but I am not concise enough to add that point. (and they're harder to crack) So, the third one. If he had fallen in that one, he would not have been a harmless adorator of himself (kidding, I know it's not the point, but I like the image of a fag Jesus, have you seen "Phantom of the Paradise" from Brian de Palma?) but a ruthless dangerous dictator, a true brother of darkness. (This is the point we were looking for: illusion is THE one that leads to becoming a "brother of the left hand".) My mission is big (and I am secretly afraid of it), so please somebody give me power to make it. there pops up Satan the adversary and the tempter: "you called me?" "I have what you want" "Just worship me (I am the only Self around here)" Satan is a bit like the project of a dark bro: what he wants to become. Think about it. Yes he has power, but only of the selfish kind. No fun. And pretty limited in the range of feelings. Nothing's worth the happiness of the one who acts for Good. (glamour?). tchao! Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2430 From: xavier Subject: Re : Latest members list BTW Rick, proserp is a friend of mine I met on the net few days ago (week or two) and led to this list. Great guy. (salut proserp tu parles oui ou non?? ::)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2431 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Latest members list Rick Audette writes: "Joseph J. Dewey Boise, Idaho" (snicker) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2432 From: J J Dewey Subject: Stones to Bread In response to my last post Xavier writes: "Obviously The first one is maya: physical hunger overcoming spiritual purpose. The second one, being saved by angels because I am the son of God, is glamour: I am so good and beloved I can do anything and I'll be saved. Glamour: being too good to be responsible?" "The third one: rule the world and worship me, would be illusion: "I am the chosen one, I am the ruler of the world ; I must worship the prince of the world to rule it" Illusion: I deserve power whatever the way I handle it, and the ends justify the means." Xavier, my wife is going to be angry at you. She came up with almost the same thing as you did (quoted above) and wanted me to share her wisdom with the group. Good thing you live in France. Seriously there is a genuine correspondence here between the three temptations of Christ and maya, glamour and illusion. This correspondence, however, is largely a benefit for students for Jesus was beyond the temptation of both maya and glamour at that time, but there was a real possibility that the Dark Brothers could trick him with illusion for he had not yet been transfigured. (Matt 17:1-9) Let's look at the first temptation. Satan told him that "IF" he was the Son of God turn the stones into bread. Jesus was very hungry and for most of us that would have been temptation enough to create bread through special powers, but the hunger is not what tempted Jesus. Imagine yourself in his situation. Suppose the Spirit of God rested upon you and told you that you were to go forth with the power to do miracles and prove to the world that you are the Messiah. Wouldn't you maybe wonder if you are going crazy? Wouldn't it be comforting to do some miracle for your own benefit just to verify that you heard the voice of God correctly? Wouldn't you feel more confident as you watched stones turn to bread before your very eyes? Now you know for sure God is with you, you would have much greater chance of success, right? Why would Jesus have been caught in illusion if he had fell for this trap? Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2433 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Latest members list Rick reminded: "here is the latest compiled list of members. As you can see, there are still a lot of people that haven't told us where they live. Wouldn't it be cool to discover that there is another "Keyster" living in your city. You could get together and talk, like JJ and Wayne (cool). Or, maybe, meet your soulmate (it could happen). Imagine a relationship between two true seekers. Who could ask for more. Come on guys, open the curtains and let some light in." Wow, now you got me excited, could there be someone else from my hometown on this list? :) Got my hopes up, although odds might be against me :) Anyway, I know some nice small cafes here in Porvoo, anybody wanna chat over a cuppa java, just let me know and consider it a deal, ok? Hehheheee :D Much (soulmate) love to All of ya, Samu the seeking Keyster-man :) Ps. Actually I do believe there are other Keysters in my home town, they just don't know it yet :) Post No. keys-l: /1999--01-11/2434 From: xavier Subject: Re : Stones to Bread J J Dewey writes: "Xavier, my wife is going to be angry at you. She came up with almost the same thing as you did (quoted above) and wanted me to share her wisdom with the group. Good thing you live in France." I love to make beautiful women angry ::))) (don't take it seriously ;) Seriously the answer seemed prettily obvious: three temptations, three delusions, and in the right order. The others did not see/point at it because they had much more interesting and unwaited things to tell. (and unravel). Aiming around the mark gathers much insight. BTW keysters, your last posts gave me wonderful insights about what I am living and struggling at these days. This must be a spiritual group thing. Sharing energies, and answering one another. Great thanks! That thing about fire and water, and how to accept and use "evil", wow. I always talk about it but still need clues to put it in practice ::)) (there were others) For those that feel "desperate" at not finding answers, I can say it happens to me all the time. Some questions I have a clue, others I have a good feeling to the answer, but most of them I'm at a loss, and moreover I feel I DON'T WANT to explore and try to find the answer. I feel I prefer to do anything than digging that grave;;)) It just hurts my ego, my pains, everything. And I instinctively build a cloud of feelings, needs to unuseful actions, etc. In these hours I'm a true fabric of delusions ::)) Then I just follow my feelings, write off-topics or do off-topics :)), and someway I get back on track on my own particular way, that has nothing to do with THE WAY that my mind tells me I HAVE to follow when I feel pissed off by a question ;;)) It's much a matter of accepting oneself with our mistakes. And loving and trusting myself enough not to hate me to the point of getting destructive when I feel lost, or stupid, or anything. "This also shall pass" JJ (inspiringly as usual :-) ) wrote: "Let's look at the first temptation. Satan told him that "IF" he was the Son of God turn the stones into bread." "Jesus was very hungry and for most of us that would have been temptation enough to create bread through special powers, but the hunger is not what tempted Jesus." "Imagine yourself in his situation. Suppose the Spirit of God rested upon you and told you that you were to go forth with the power to do miracles and prove to the world that you are the Messiah. Wouldn't you maybe wonder if you are going crazy? Wouldn't it be comforting to do some miracle for your own benefit just to verify that you heard the voice of God correctly? Wouldn't you feel more confident as you watched stones turn to bread before your very eyes? Now you know for sure God is with you, you would have much greater chance of success, right?" "Why would Jesus have been caught in illusion if he had fell for this trap?" He would have "asked for a sign" from outside. He would have cut himself from trust towards "the spirit of God" in himself because of weakness of his physical body, and glamour and illusion. "IF" you said. As if he didn't know he was? The adversary kind of challenged him to prove it, mocking him for starving, and saying: you look pitiful, more like a beggar than a disciple. And you think you are chosen for a great mission? If that is so, just turn the stones into bread. That is: make something pleasurable from something hard, but not through understanding and wisdom, yet through magical powers. Free yourself from the harshness of life in a material body, aren't you a divine spirit? when the true soul-contact tells: turn lead into gold inside of your inner heart, change your feelings and thoughts towards faith and knowledge, and then, "miraculous" things happen. But never to avoid a physical manifestation of a temptation. It's like turning the whole thing upside down. Outer experience is here to increase inner understanding. I'd like to manage to say it better. I pass the ball to you keysters :) Physical difficulty is a manifestation of an inner temptation. It appears to make us live out this temptation, and choose union or duality. If we use soul-powers to destroy the challenge that our soul produced for our personality to evolve, well...that's a major illusion about what life is, what it is to be a spirit incarnated in a body. We're not here to fight or avoid the outside, as a matter of fact our own soul makes the outer life/maya we are in. That's it or I'll put one more painting on it..:)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2435 From: Belle Subject: Re: Latest members list "Rick reminded: "here is the latest compiled list of members. As you can see, there are still a lot of people that haven't told us where they live. Wouldn't it be cool to discover that there is another "Keyster" living in your city. You could get together and talk, like JJ and Wayne (cool). Or, maybe, meet your soulmate (it could happen). Imagine a relationship between two true seekers. Who could ask for more. Come on guys, open the curtains and let some light in." Hi gang, Does this mean Wayne is on the list?? Have I missed much in the time I have been away?? Just had a minute to check in to see what JJ has been writing as I was not getting email from the list BECAUSE like JJ, I got a new Computer!!!!! And am on my way to computer enlightenment with an ***iMac***... I am sooooooo lucky.. I just loves Macs anyway, but was tickled to see what JJ wrote. Like JJ I am spending much time transferring files and downloading so I won't participate again until I'm finished.. But I have joined for a few days just to see what's happening.... Have new email addy also belle@ametro.net . This thing is blindingly fast compared to my ancient 68030 Performa.. If anyone is wondering if those ads about iMacs being so easy to use are true..... the answer is YES!!! It was literally minutes to take out of the box and get going. Have a Happy New Year folks.. Grins and love, Belle PS For you astrology buffs.. This Computer came to me very suddenly and unexpectedly when Sun, Neptune, Venus and Uranus were transiting my 8th. House.. Venus was exactly conjunct my South node on the day and North node was conjunct my Jupiter in the third! It was a gift from an old friend I haven't seen in over 11 years.. What a surprise! (This friend is a BIG Mac fan to say the least.) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2436 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Xavier's comments xavier writes: "Seriously the answer seemed prettily obvious: three temptations, three delusions, and in the right order. The others did not see/point at it because they had much more interesting and unwaited things to tell. (and unravel). Aiming around the mark gathers much insight." And you know, after I posted everything yesterday, and started doing something else, it finally dawned on me that I hadn't related my ideas to the 3 words new to my vocabulary, I was on such a rush to share with the group what was coming into my mind to say, so I thought, heck, maybe someone else can tie it all together with the 3 words. Those words are just in my personal dictionary yet, that's obvious. I'm glad you could tie it back to JJ's specific question. Thanks! But I was disappointed this morning to read JJ's post of the day. I was hoping he'd answer Diane's (I think it was) question about how he knows everything he stated about Clinton. I was (am) sitting on the edge of my chair waiting for that answer. JJ seems to have a very busy life, so I'm not pushing you, JJ, just don't forget, ok? LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2437 From: Sanna Hanskala Subject: Re: Latest members list Rick Audette writes: "Hi All, here is the latest compiled list of members. As you can see, there are still a lot of people that haven't told us where they live. Wouldn't it be cool to discover that there is another "Keyster" living in your city. You could get together and talk, like JJ and Wayne (cool). Or, maybe, meet your soulmate (it could happen). Imagine a relationship between two true seekers. Who could ask for more. Come on guys, open the curtains and let some light in. Rick" 'Fantasy' as a word refers to something that doesn't exist, but it doesn't mean that what we now perceive as fantasy can't be real. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2438 "Hardin, Jennifer" Subject: RE: Latest members list Jennifer Hardin - Irving Texas :-) Jennifer Hardin Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2439 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: Opening the Door I was very interested by what you wrote, JJ, on Bill Clinton. I have been one of the people saying that he needs to go since he was so publicly "busted." And believe me, I am hard pressed to find a friend who agrees with me. Except my Dad. So I was just the opposite of offended. I don't like his legal word games. I don't care for his public lying, i.e. "I did not have sexual relations with THAT WOMAN, Miss Lewinski." (My caps). Yeah, right pal. Sure sounded like sex to me. Which really isn't the point. It's the lying, manipulating, the tawdriness, the disrespect he has for the office of the presidency, the extremely high number of people associated with him who have just "turned up" dead, and on and on and on. Even though I voted for him, I feel I was fooled. I just do not have a good feeling about this man. Nor do I think much of his enabling wife, who is currently being sainted in the press. What kind of example is she setting for other women, or her daughter? That, yes, it is a good thing to victimize yourself and subject yourself to ongoing humiliation? She may be sellin' it, but I'm not buyin'. My friends say to me, "But if Ken Starr poured $40 million (or whatever that ridiculous number is) into investigating you, don't you think he'd find some dirt?" Of course I do. But I didn't ask to be the leader of the free world, nor would I. Is this a cop out on my part? I don't know. I just know I'd feel a lot more secure as an American citizen if this educated Southern yahoo we call Mr. President would just resign (which just isn't going to happen). It seems as if much of the American public has taken the position of ostriches with their collective heads in the sand. It baffles me. On the subject of illusion, I would give a lot to be able to see which ones I am operating under. It is the lies I tell myself which seem to be the most difficult to acknowledge. This is all so interesting, JJ. Thank you and God bless you for all the time you spend making us THINK! Blessings to one and all, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2440 From: AULDAT Subject: Re: Latest members list OK...how about a few rays of sunshine... Cari of Sacramento, CA auldat@aol.com Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2441 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Sort of OT Clinton joke Dateline: Washington, D.C., 1-3-1999 A traveler on his way home over the 14th Street Bridge got stuck in a long backup on the approach to the bridge. Noticing a policeman walking among the stopped cars, he asked, "Officer, what's the holdup?" The policeman said: "The president is so depressed about being impeached that he stopped his motorcade on the bridge and is threatening to douse himself with gasoline and set himself on fire. He says the country is convinced that he is a compulsive liar, has misused the powers of his office for his own personal and sexual benefit, and he doesn't have the $33.5 million he owes his lawyers. I thought I would help by taking up a collection for him." "Oh really?" the traveler said. "How much have you collected so far?" "So far only 130 gallons, but I've only gotten started, and a lot of folks are still siphoning." Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2442 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: Stones to Bread J J Dewey wrote: "Let's look at the first temptation. Satan told him that "IF" he was the Son of God turn the stones into bread. Why would Jesus have been caught in illusion if he had fell for this trap?" Hi Folks, I think that Xavier has already hit upon this answer, but I thought I might throw it out again in some different words. In the true order of things, something "is", before it is manifest. Then once it "is", it manifests. So when Satan poses the challenge, "'If' you are the son of God, change these stones to bread", what he's really doing is attempting to reverse the true order of manifestation. (If you make the bread, you are the son of God) Thus the question of Jesus' divinity would have become dependent upon the creation of bread, rather than the creation of bread being dependent upon Jesus' divinity. For Jesus to create bread would be no sin. For him to do it for the sake of proving who he was, would be to introduce some doubt as to that fact. Also, spiritual truth is higher than physical truth. It is not wise to attempt to prove spiritual truth, using physical means. Rather, we are availed to live our spiritual truth and allow the "signs and wonders" to follow. This keeps the order of manifestation intact. Some afternoon thinking. In Fellowship, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2443 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Stones to Bread John Kosior writes: "(If you make the bread, you are the son of God)" This one sentence above, that John used in his excellent write up about stones to bread gave me an idea, because I first read it as 'if you break the bread, you are the son of God', and that didn't make sense in the rest of John's thoughts, so I went back to re-read it to read "make" not "break"----but that is what the Son of God did the night before he was crucified, he break bread with his disciples and instituted communion. Actually, communion was going on long before that Last Supper, but it is the remembrance that we still perform today, and somehow this is going straight back to making the stones turn to bread except on a somewhat deeper level (at least for me). LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2444 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Stones to Bread To me "If" implies a doubt. "Is" is a certainty. Jesus "KNEW" he was the son of God. He had no need to prove anything to anyone else. I think he would have been caught in illusion by responding to someone else's image of him. Diane J J Dewey wrote: "Let's look at the first temptation. Satan told him that "IF" he was the Son of God turn the stones into bread." Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2445 From: AGiles Subject: RE: Latest members list FWIW, AGiles7207@aol.com(Lynne) --I live in NE Tennessee. Glad you mentioned it as now at least it gives an idea of where everyone is. Lynne Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2446 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Stones to Bread JJ wrote: "Let's look at the first temptation. Satan told him that "IF" he was the Son of God turn the stones into bread." So the temptation had more to do with if Jesus believed he was in fact Son of God or not, did he believe and know it was so with everything he was. Satan tried to make Jesus question who he was, thus questioning God, and this way again looking for a sign or proof that was 'out there' instead of in here, and as we have learned the Name of the Father can't be found anywhere but within :) Btw Xavier, liked your words on this topic a lot :) "Imagine yourself in his situation. Suppose the Spirit of God rested upon you and told you that you were to go forth with the power to do miracles and prove to the world that you are the Messiah. Wouldn't you maybe wonder if you are going crazy? Wouldn't it be comforting to do some miracle for your own benefit just to verify that you heard the voice of God correctly?" Yes, but wasn't the fasting of Jesus symbolic for that he knew God provided everything he would ever need? It was also showing trust and faith in self and God, and an expression of self- discipline. I can know for *me* it would be *very* comforting to do a miracle or two just to see some proof sometimes, I don't quite have the Faith Jesus did, yet, but I am working on it :) When reading JJ's quoted words above, how does one prove to the world that he is Messiah? Why does it need to be proved? Those that know it is so will believe, and as we know many denied Jesus' true being till the very end of his physical life. How does one prove to himself that he is Messiah? He verifies that he is hearing the voice of God correctly, of course. But how? "Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God." In this fasting example, if Jesus hears the voice of God correctly, he believes in the voice of the Spirit thru Soul contact, and this voice is saying God provides you with everything you need. So it shall be written, so it shall be done, and it should need no new proof over and over again, if you truly believe this is the Truth. Had Jesus given in to the temptations of Satan's words, he would have been questioning the word of God and listening to somebody outside of himself. Questioning is a good thing, but the idea is to get rid of the "if's" and have yes's and no's. Did Jesus believe he was Son of God and was he listening to the voice of his heart connection? YES!!! He did so, and he had been caught in illusion if he had furthermore felt he needed to do something to save himself which would have meant saying 'I am not quite there yet', in this case turning stones to bread, because he knew salvation was truth already, he didn't. If he had turned those stones to bread it would have been like saying, I am not saved yet, *I* need to do something more, in this case feed myself with bread, to have an eternal life. Jesus knew he already had it without feeding himself, because God had said it is so, He provides everything we truly need and selflessly ask for. Still regarding Matt 4:4, I think it has many layers of meanings, but one thing it is saying is that you do not live on fuel alone, but exist and evolve on the divine direction you set for your vehicle. It is not as much what you put in, but what you do with what you already have, because man's capability is as unlimited as his Creator's mind is limitless and heart is wide and expanding. So, mind is stronger than matter, physical world is based on beliefs and ideas. It would have been an incorrect idea to turn stones to bread as a proof of a spiritual belief, it would have been upside down. It is the Faith on belief that makes 'magic' like that possible, but magic can be based on tricks and gimmicks alone too. I am sure spoons can be bent using 'psychic power' and this has been done, but someone like James Randi can bend spoons too and admits it is not magic, it's a trick. So, stones could have been turned into bread based on true divine magic, but doing that just to prove you're Son of God could have been an illusion that would have fooled many, and we know Beast likes those :) Truth is not based on illusions, Truth already Is before it could be questioned or asked to be proved. Much love, Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2447 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: The Book LeLona, The Book came in the mail today, Thank you so much. When you live on a rural, rural route on thirdary road (as opposed to a primary or secondary road) 3 day mail usually takes 4-5 days. Must come in by mule train. Love and Light.........kc Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2448 From: june collier Subject: Re: Latest members list June Collier june@ls.net Elk Creek, VA Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2449 From: CHERRYBLAZE@... Subject: Re: Latest members list Scranton, westside, PA Post No. keys-l: /1999-02/2450 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: The Book kcsjrt@swva.net writes: "The Book came in the mail today," Great! I was beginning to get worried that it got lost! ENJOY!!!!! LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2451 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Sort of OT/ Re: Stones to Bread Have any of you all read The Gospel According to the Son by Norman Mailer? I found it helpful to me in turning over all of those stereotypical views about The Christ. Love and Light........karen Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2452 From: xavier Subject: off-topic "fantasy" "Sanna Hanskala Chapel Hill, North Carolina" "Sanna Hanskala sannah @ earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~sannah/" "'Fantasy' as a word refers to something that doesn't exist, but it doesn't mean that what we now perceive as fantasy can't be real." I believe "Fantasy" refers the world of Faes, and this has nothing to do with "unreal", only with "invisible to physical eyes". This is one more trick of the beast: to denature the meaning of words and put the spirit out of words. e.g. "imagination" has nothing to do with unreal either, as a matter of fact, imagination is the main creative power of human beings. So in common language of these last decades, "fantasy" refers to unreal, but this is a degradation of the true meaning that occurred because our civilization is in a process of materialistic cancerization. Technically I suppose that "Fantasy" might refer to the astral plane. And for those that travel consciously in that plane, they all agree that if there is something "unreal", it's the physical dense illusion we live in everyday. :) Anyway it feels unreal to them, once they know the reality from inside. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2453 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Stones to Bread John Kosior writes: "(...) Hi Folks, I think that Xavier has already hit upon this answer, but I thought I might throw it out again in some different words. (.......) Some afternoon thinking. In Fellowship, John" I must have been only lurking in ancient classrooms, and was much lacking concentration, but you were surely more balanced and centered. While I wrote my post, I was waiting for someone else to put it straight, and *concise, and I actually thought of you, eagle-like, hovering above the plain, a long time, before crash-diving to make a sudden bite, clear straight, organized, then rise up again behind the clouds. ::)) Such a style! ;) Guess it's a matter of remaining centered in the mind, independently of emotions and sensations. (of course I like my messy muddy style too, in fact I need it ;)) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-11/2454 From: Diane Linen Subject: (OT)humor)) Shipwrecked Shipwrecked An ambitious software engineer finally decided to take a vacation, he booked himself on a Caribbean cruise and proceeded to have the time of his life. At least for a while. A hurricane came up unexpectedly. The ship went down and was lost instantly. The man found him self swept up on the shores of an island with no other people, no supplies, nothing. Only bananas and coconuts. Used to four- star hotels, this guy had no idea what to do. So for the next four months he ate bananas, drank coconut juice, longed for his old life, and fixed his gaze on the sea, hoping to spot a rescue ship. One day, as he was lying on the beach, he spotted movement out of the corner of his eye. It was a rowboat, and in it was the most gorgeous woman he had ever seen. She rowed up to him. In disbelief, he asked her: "Where did you come from, and how did you get here?" "I rowed from the other side of the island," she said. "I landed here when my cruise ship sank." "Amazing," the software engineer said, "I didn't know anyone else had survived. How many of you are there? You were really lucky to have a rowboat wash up with you." "It's only me," she said, "and the rowboat didn't wash up: nothing did." He was confused, "Then how did you get the rowboat?" "Oh, simple," replied the woman. "I made it out of raw material that I found on the island. The oars were whittled from gum-tree branches, I wove the bottom from palm branches, and the sides and stern came from a eucalyptus tree." "But, but, that's impossible," stuttered the man. "You had no tools or hardware - how did you manage?" "Oh, that was no problem," the woman said. "On the south side of the island, there is a very unusual strata of exposed alluvial rock. I found that if I fired it to a certain temperature, it melted into forgeable ductile iron. I used that to make tools, and used the tools to make the hardware. But enough of that. Where do you live?" Sheepishly, the man confessed that he had been sleeping on the beach the whole time. "Well, let's row over to my place then," she said. After a few minutes of rowing, she docked the boat at a small wharf. As the man looked onto shore, he nearly fell out of the boat. Before him was a stone walk leading to an exquisite bungalow painted in blue and white. While the woman tied up the rowboat with an expertly woven hemp rope, the man could only stare ahead, dumb struck. As they walked into the house, she said casually, "It's not much, but I call it home. Sit down, please. Would you like to have a drink?" "No, no, thank you," he said, still dazed. "I couldn't drink another drop of coconut juice." "It's not coconut juice," the woman replied. "I have made a still How about a Pina Colada?" Trying to hide his continued amazement, the software engineer accepted, and they sat down on her couch to talk. After they had exchanged their stories, the woman announced, "I'm going to slip into something more comfortable. Would you like to have a shower and a shave? There is a razor upstairs in the cabinet in the bathroom." No longer questioning anything, the man went into the bathroom. . There in the cabinet was a razor made from a bone handle. Two shells honed to a hollow- ground edge were fastened to its tip, inside a swivel mechanism. "This woman is absolutely amazing," he mused. "What next?" When he returned, the woman greeted him wearing nothing but vines strategically positioned- and smelling faintly of gardenias. She beckoned for him to sit down next to her. "Tell me," she began suggestively, slithering closer to him, brushing her leg against his, "We've both been out here for a very long time. You've been lonely. There's something I'm sure you really feel like doing right now, something you've been longing to do for all of these months." She stared into his eyes. He couldn't believe what he was hearing - this was like all of his dreams coming true in one day. Breathlessly, in a hoarse whisper, he said, "You mean..., I can check my e-mail from here?" Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2455 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: Stones to Bread Samu writes: "(.....) but doing that just to prove you're Son of God could have been an illusion that would have fooled many, and we know Beast likes those :) Truth is not based on illusions, Truth already Is before it could be questioned or asked to be proved." "Yes there's a great thing there. "Truth already IS before it could be questioned or asked to be proved." "Truth is of a much higher/subtler/originaler nature/matter-type than questions/feelings/sensations are." "Essence that is. Do you question Essence? When you have earned contact with the Essence, if your lower vehicles oppose that contact with the soul using questions-thoughts/emotions- desires/sensations-hungers to the point of breaking that marriage,... they just refuse soul- alignment." "And soul is something like the negative of personality, the other side of the mirror, the reflection. (In fact soul is the subject, and personality is the delusive reflection) Meaning it takes place when the lower vehicles are on mute mode. Receptive. Accepting the inflow of tremendous energy that washes away all ego. (I just couldn't, sorry)" (snip) Much love, Samu See you!!! Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2456 From: Joseph Darwin Stevens Subject: Living at: For those that want to know, papajoe@wcoil.com is from LIMA (Lost In Mid America) Ohio>45805-1927..This is located in NW Ohio, 76mile South of Toledo, Ohio; 76miles North of Dayton, Ohio and 76miles East of Ft.Wayne, Ind. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2457 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Living at: Hello Papajoe, JJ and LeLona are right. You have a most interesting bio and I have to add my plea for you to expand more on what your bio mentions. Please? love to all, Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2458 From: Lynette McCauley Subject: Re Latest Members List Lynette McCauley living on 5 acres at Bahrs Scrub, near Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, with 4 afghan hounds, 1 shih-tzu, 2 persian cats, 1 moggie, a pinto, a welsh mountain pony, itinerant donkeys (who visit lots) and my pet husband who is a kind and tolerant man! lynmc@one.net.au (this address appears incorrectly on the list) Post No. keys-l: /1999-02/2459 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Re Latest Members List lynmc@one.net.au writes: "Lynette McCauley living on 5 acres at Bahrs Scrub, near Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, with 4 afghan hounds, 1 shih-tzu, 2 persian cats, 1 moggie, a pinto, a welsh mountain pony, itinerant donkeys (who visit lots) and my pet husband who is a kind and tolerant man!" "Mickey Mouse, Mickey Mouse......" For some reason I burst into song singing the tune to the Mickey Mouse Club after reading this one......hahahahaha.....all the different intros suddenly reminded me of the old Mickey Mouse Club kids... My "Rose" sense of humor I guess. Seriously, I read the above several times, trying to get the picture. I'm not poking fun at you, Lynette, but your description sounds SO FUN, I could almost see everything there. What's a "moggie"? Your intro was really fun to read! LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2460 From: J J Dewey Subject: The Second Temptation We received some good answers today from Xavier, John and Samu on the first temptation. Xavier, do I sense a growing light in your posts? I think so, and not only yours but the group as a whole? It is true that the real temptation for Jesus was the illusion that we need more than the inner confirmation before we can rely on a communication from the Spirit. If He had yielded to the temptation to change the stones into bread He would have been admitting that He was not sure and not trusting of the communication He had received from his Father/Mother God. The interesting thing is that He later fed 10,000 people by multiplying loaves and fishes which was a much greater miracle than just changing a couple stones into bread. The difference was that this miracle was performed in the service of others and not self and he received the inner go ahead to do the miracle. Jesus often spoke of one greater than Himself which was in Him and that he was basically a student following directions. Notice that just before he raised Lazarus from the dead he thanked his Father within that he was given permission to perform the miracle. The Spirit within never gave Jesus the go-ahead to turn the stones into bread and if He had attempted to do so he would have failed and his faith in his mission would have faltered to the delight of the Dark Brothers. This is the true meaning of the answer that Jesus gave to his adversary when he said: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth out of the mouth of God." The word did not come to Jesus from the mouth (or inner voice) of God to change the stones to bread. He would have been relying on the power of mortal flesh had he attempted to do so. THE NEXT TEMPTATION: Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Here the adversary used a different tactic - the written Word of God, the scriptures that Jesus cherished as holding the promises of God. This being quoted to Jesus words he adamantly believed to be true and challenged him to test those words. Jesus could have reasoned as follows: "He's right. The scriptures do say that the angels will watch over the Messiah and if they are really true and if I am the Messiah then I should be able to jump off the temple and yet be protected. If I did this in front of hundreds or thousands of people then no one would doubt me." Jesus had a firm belief that God would always fulfill His promises so if God is true to his word then this would be a miracle that God would be bound to honor, even if He did not receive permission from the inner voice. Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference? If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved? Post No. keys-1/1999-01-12/2461 From: J J Dewey Subject: Sources Diane and Lelona ask my sources of information about the President. Let us say that God, John, Buddha or someone else appeared to me and gave me the information, on one hand, and on the other let us say I just made it up out of the blue. Let us further suppose that the information is true in both cases. Is your soul any more likely to verify a truth revealed straight from the mouth of God any more than the same truth that is revealed by accident? The soul does not discriminate. Truth alone is the religion of the soul and it does not matter where it comes from. You'll notice that there are many others who claim to be spiritual teachers who can't finish a sentence without saying something like "Agathar has spoken and says this is true," or something of the sort? Remember the core teaching of everything we have presented so far... If you look to an outside authority more than the soul within you can be tricked by the beast. Therefore all my teachings directly to any student will carry no other authority other than the "Name of the Father/Mother God within." What I say may or may not be true. As you experience soul contact you will check and become your own authority. Besides, if I said I received a revelation from some great entity I could be lying, just as are 99% of those out there who make the claim do. Again I say, the ONLY way for you to know a teacher is guiding you the right direction is through soul contact. Now some truths stand out more than others do. Some great statements like the Golden Rule (Do unto others...) is so powerful that it registers with the souls of almost everyone. Other truths are more subtle or clouded by bias and we need to unravel the three deceptions to see them clearly. You may find it of interest to know that one thing I told you in relation to the President and Congress was wrong for I have received a correction I need to present to you. I told you to visualize Light and Love descending on the President and Congress. Now who would doubt that this would be a good thing to do? Very few. Another good example of checking with the soul rather than believing the obvious. But there is a danger here. When saying the Song we should only visualize Light and Love descending on people who are open to it and will use the energy for good. If we send Light and Love to anyone on the dark path or of a low vibration or someone who will use power contrary to the good of the whole then the Light and Love we send will be transmuted to the lower centers and all we will do is energize the lower desires of these people. Many Light Workers at the beginning of World War II made the mistake of sending Light and Love to Hitler and it only had the effect of energizing his lower self rather than making him more sensitive to the needs of others. The world would have been much better served if they had sent the positive energy to others in Germany who may be more receptive. If the energy was sent to Romel, Stauffenberg and others who were just men seeking to overthrow Hitler the war may have ended sooner. Therefore, if you send any positive energy to Clinton only do so if you can sense a part of him that is open to the inner voice. If you send Love and Light to Congress do so sensing that there are some (but not all) who are sincere about their job of service and see the positive energy descending on them Do not visualize any particular names, but just realize that there are some who will positively use the higher energies. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2462 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Sources WOW! JJ. I must be learning some things here because I had a doubt when you mentioned sending Clinton and Congress light and have not done so. I was not doubting what you said about him though, I just was curious about your source of information. I had a "bad" feeling about Clinton since before he was elected the first time and that bad feeling has only grown larger since then. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2463 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Sources JJ Dewey writes: "When saying the Song we should only visualize Light and Love descending on people who are open to it and will use the energy for good. If we send Light and Love to anyone on the dark path or of a low vibration or someone who will use power contrary to the good of the whole then the Light and Love we send will be transmuted to the lower centers and all we will do is energize the lower desires of these people." Thank you, JJ, for your explanation. The above is so true, and I'm glad you received a correction. You have also demonstrated your willingness to admit you made a mistake (mis take), something we are all subject to doing. We're just not all willing to admit to it. I'm sure you didn't intend to infer that Diane and I don't have soul contact like Xavier and Samu "seem" to, but it's ok that you used me (I can't speak for Diane) as an example. Frankly, I resemble that remark! :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2464 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Sources Upon reflection here, I do believe I could send love, light and energy to Ron Paul though because I believe he's open to it. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2465 From: xavier Subject: soul-contact, reply to Lelona. LeLona Hodges writes: "I'm sure you didn't intend to infer that Diane and I don't have soul contact like Xavier and Samu "seem" to, but it's ok that you used me (I can't speak for Diane) as an example. Frankly, I resemble that remark! :)" "like Xavier and Samu seem to infer you don't have? that can be what you wrote, can it, like Xavier and Samu seem to have soul-contact? For me certainly not. Except as as bit of intuition, confirmations and such, let's say one or two percents of soul contact. (maybe 5? who cares?) The way JJ talked about true soul-contact, coming after overcoming the three delusions, and being thus trusted by the Brotherhood, well this is the third Initiation. ::)) I'd be happy if I had passed the first one, and I sure haven't. Consecration to unselfish service." Now if you talk about insights, well maybe it's easier for a man to answer another man's questions. Like what you said about sexism on the list. And after what you told about you being always in the heart and almost never in the third chakra, I noted to myself that you are/can be my teacher, not me. BTW I knew the fact about lightworkers and Hitler, and felt very bad the suggestion to send light to Clinton the poor. Is it soul-contact? Probably on a much remote secondary plane. One thing is to have insights, confirmation, sense of truth (I always had a strong one), another is to be put to the test of realization of love in action. Not to mention the responsibility to influence the life of many people, like a president has. Clinton needs soul-contact to do a good job. I only need it not to spoil my family. (for now at least) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2466 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: The Second Temptation "Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy Foot against a stone. Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." "Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference? If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" I have no idea about the first part of the question, but do feel fairly certain that if Jesus had jumped from the temple, his physical body may have been saved, but his spirit would have belonged to Satan. Did Jesus perform any miracle without listening for the "still small voice"? I don't believe he did. There's ships out in the meadow and rockets on the sea. The answer's in a forest carved upon a tree. Love and Light, Karen ICQ26771119 Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2467 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Stones to Bread Xavier writes: "Yes there's a great thing there. "Truth already IS before it could be questioned or asked to be proved." "Truth is of a much higher/subtler/originaler nature/matter-type than questions/feelings/sensations are." "Essence that is. Do you question Essence? When you have earned contact with the Essence, if your lower vehicles oppose that contact with the soul using questions-thoughts/emotions- desires/sensations-hungers to the point of breaking that marriage,... they just refuse soul- alignment." "And soul is something like the negative of personality, the other side of the mirror, the reflection. (In fact soul is the subject, and personality is the delusive reflection) Meaning it takes place when the lower vehicles are on mute mode. Receptive. Accepting the inflow of tremendous energy that washes away all ego. (I just couldn't, sorry)" I find these to be wise words, my fellow European Keyster Xavier :) Ego sounds like a negative term to many, but I believe a sense of self is exactly the tool man uses to make his spirit grow. When this awareness is selfless and does deeds for the benefit of all, oneself also gains most. The nature of life is to give, because that is how you receive what you have given back to yourself, and when you have given without expectations, no strings attached, unconditionally, it will come back to you manifold, resonating with the free unbound energy that's out there that has the same quality than the gift of energy you gave in the first place. It takes courage to start giving without fear of losing. However, I have found that this is one of the universal laws that quickly prove themselves to be true in the physical, as well as in the emotional world. Then the process starts feeding itself once you trust more and more, and you realize you are an endless source in yourself, that what you give, paradoxically, is what you gain, which is the ever-growing you. I read a quote today: "Sherlock Holmes [Sir Arthur Conan Doyle]: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." This had me further contemplating the essence of truth. I feel the path leading to truth is more like removing blocks of disbelief and denial around the truthful core which already is there as it always has been, instead of proving it to be real, inventing or establishing its existence by endlessly searching for outer proof. Truth does not come about from outer events, but is manifested from inner reality. You may catch a glimpse of truth in your everyday life, every day, but when you have the knowingness of What Is and also *why* this Is, you will see truth everywhere all the time, even in things that most deem Dark, even in those you can find the real relation to Truth of Light. Mother Earth revolves around her Source of Light and stays on the orbit due to a principle that gives time and space certain qualities and embracingly bends space keeping Terra from eloping into the darkness of space. The gravity of Sun does not come into reality as we cycle around the sun, but will be there even before we enter the next point on the orbit, just like Love of God will never disappear, but encompasses us eternally, wherever we may stroll on our earthly cyclic paths. However, comprehending certain principles will enable us transcend gravity, and we can fly free. Before that, we must show by our actions and choices that we have understood what it is to be son or daughter of One. Then, when we have also fully comprehended anti-gravity, can we be lifted up from our earthly cradle. Truth will bring you eternal youth, Samu :D Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2468 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: off-topic "fantasy" Xavier writes: "I believe "Fantasy" refers the world of Faes, and this has nothing to do with "unreal", only with "invisible to physical eyes". This is one more trick of the beast: to denature the meaning of words and put the spirit out of words." "e.g. "imagination" has nothing to do with unreal either, as a matter of fact, imagination is the main creative power of human beings." How would you describe the difference between fantasy and imagination? Is fantasy the real result of intangible imagination? :D Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2469 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: (OT)humor)) Shipwrecked "Tell me," she began suggestively, slithering closer to him, brushing her leg against his, "We've both been out here for a very long time. You've been lonely. There's something I'm sure you really feel like doing right now, something you've been longing to do for all of these months." "She stared into his eyes. He couldn't believe what he was hearing - this was like all of his dreams coming true in one day." "Breathlessly, in a hoarse whisper, he said, "You mean..., I can check my e-mail from here?" Come on!!! Email? :D This dude just got it all wrong, doesn't he? :D Hehehe... You know, Diane, one slogan Nokia uses is "Connecting people". Maybe that would've been a little more appropriate means of interaction than email :) Thanks for the chuckles, Diane! :D Much love, Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-1-12/2470 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: off-topic "fantasy" Samu Karlsson writes: "Xavier writes: I believe "Fantasy" refers the world of Faes, and this has nothing to do with "unreal", only with "invisible to physical eyes". This is one more trick of the beast: to denature the meaning of words and put the spirit out of words." "e.g. "imagination" has nothing to do with unreal either, as a matter of fact, imagination is the main creative power of human beings." "How would you describe the difference between fantasy and imagination? Is fantasy the real result of intangible imagination? :D Samu" If you mean fantasy as being inner trips of imagination, well.. Okay. esoterically: Fantasy =3D astral world, or maybe elemental essence. (words to me) socially: fantasy =3D divagation of the mind and feelings in unreal worlds. imagination =3D ability to create picture, ideas, etc.. inside of our minds/hearts/bodies. What I think is true=3D Fantasy for me is a world in the astral plane. Very real, very magical, and a key to physical manifestation. But maybe not the "fantasy" you referred to. The Land of Fantasy, ok? Imagination, rather "Creative Imagination" is a divine power naturally available to human, and the driving force behind all creation. If you thought of fantasy as being inner trips, well it's the same as imagination. Yet to use consciously and efficiently creative imagination, one needs training and development. This is all mainly "I heard"-stuff tho. Mingled with "I hear inside" stuff too yes :) BTW your posts are a sparkle, you might feed a starving writer looking for insights for years. Fountain is your hidden name? one more thing: a sexist remark :) has the story "Shipwrecked" been written by a woman? Anyway the man is helpless and the woman divine. Let's share it will you girls? (what would you do without us? I know this one what too much, just kidding ::)) Flaming the war of the sexes again, xavier Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2471 From: David Teller Subject: THE GROK BOX ROCKS!!! INTORDUCING HEARTLINK! The late Timothy Leary often speculated that one day soon, someone would invent a virtual reality device that would show you how to see God. As it turns out he may have been right. The concept is really quite simple. If you could align your brainwaves to the frequency of Love, you could unlock the interdimensional capabilities of the human consciousness, achieve "oneness" or "grok" as they say in science fiction. So last December I started to use my half hour web sessions at the library to find the latest developments in "Astral Technology". My search led me to Dan Winter of San Graal Multimedia in North Carolina, who has created something called "The Heartlink Interface." Simply put in his own words, it's a "gizmo" that "locates your soul." Let that sink in a minute. Then consider that he intends to produce 60 million of these little "grok boxes" in time for an interactive simulcast on the web , set for New Year 2000.(www.heartbeat2000.com) "Our goal is to assist in the physical ascension of humanity through the coherent re membering of self love." says James Barrett of Eartheart, who is working on the simulcast. Searching through the San Graal websites (www.danwinter.com and www.sangraal.com) one finds beautiful computer generated artwork and lengthy discussions by Winter on "The Physics of Consciousness" and "Recursion Harmonics" as well as links to other fascinating topics like "Psikids" which is growing into a "Starchild Network" of "spiritually aware children". But The Heartlink Interface is by far their most remarkable achievement. "It took 10 years to write the code for PHI (Love) for ekg." says Barrett "Now we have working prototypes ready for mass production." It doesn't take a street musician to understand what they've done, let alone a rocket scientist. Though I must admit that I found this whole "grok box" idea a little unsettling. That the evolution of our entire species to Son of Man could be accomplished by a virtual tuning fork, perhaps in less than ten years would be an amazing thing. This genie is already out of the bottle folks. Are you ready to grok? David Teller The Subway Serenade Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2472 From: David Teller Subject: Heartlink and TM +links Subject: heartlink and TM "coherence" study To John Hagelin hagelinj@aol.com Institute for the Study of Science and Consciousness, Maharishsi University Managagement, Fairfield, IA. CC: Fred Travis ftravis@mum.edu CC: John Zamarra jzamarra@mum.edu (thanks John for help years ago!) CC: Charles Glueck tm work, CT, @ caren abdela, heartcaren@aol.com and CC: the wonderful Heartlink Team... From: Dan Winter winter@... New heart coherence technology proposed for EEG/TM parallel: www.danwinter.com/heartlink Main "Sacred Geometry and Coherent Emotion" index: www.danwinter.com John, Thanks again for taking the time to call me this morning. I am happy to reconnect again with the research end of the TM movement. It has been many years since working with Ben Bentov, on brain/heart phase capacitive accelerometric, and since presenting at MIU (douglass white, john kesterson, hal elgie, john huff=85etc) Also had a very "enlightening" time at gold dome in Manchester UK Currently I am almost recovered from 2 years of continuous global travel and teaching, settling in to remote smokey mts ctr nr the french broad river, north of asheville, nc. Reviewing the conversation, I am hopeful about initiating the conversations you suggested with Fred Travis, in research there, and contacts at your wonderful center near here, Boone, NC, care of Mike Thomkins?. Per your suggestion, some initiating thoughts re: How to teach coherence: Dr Domash so elegantly stated the issue years ago for the TM movement: ( 99. DOMASH, L. H. The Transcendental Meditation technique and quantum physics:) Is pure consciousness a macroscopic quantum state in the brain? (Department of Physics, Maharishi European Research University, Switzerland, 1975.) To which I suggest: pure consciousness is (& is teachable as) pure electrical recursion/embedding optimized by PHI Golden Ratio, in whatever biological oscillator can most support that very dense fractality. (heart first/brain second -perkinjole fibres are self similar). (ref: www.danwinter.com/embedability) We must realize now that those impressive cross hemispheric eeg coherence maps correlated with the sidhi states, ALLOWED MANY OSCILLATORS IN THE BRAIN (ELECTRICITY AND?) TO EXIST IN THE SAME 'DOMAIN' ALL NON DESTRUCTIVE TO EACH OTHER. So the issue became in essential principle, what is the wave geometry which allows most oscillators to sit on top of each other, without destructive interference. Well, clearly nature solved that problem with the invention of life. The solution in biology is call "phillotaxis". Which simply put, is to BRANCH IN GOLDEN MEAN RATIO. With this branching algorhythmn, there is "maximum exposure" & "minimum superposition" (which is just a fancy way of saying EFFICIENT SHARING OF SPACE"). This geometry of PHI produced pent or phive sided relations. There is about no other way to explain why living systems (like DNA) have pent structure at their core.. (fingers/toes.. "power of limits" et al..) So if we could recognize and MAKE TEACHABLE.. the activity of becoming alive/ that is self organizing and self aware IT WOULD BE TO QUANTIFY OR MEASURE AND TEACH BY FEEDING BACK.. the ACTIVITY OF BECOMING PHI OR PHILLOTACTIC IN HARMONIC SYMMETRY. Years ago I noticed that THE SPACE BETWEEN CONTAINED HARMONICS WAS ROOT PHI, in the heart power spectra, AT THE MOMENT OF SUBJECTIVE REPORTING OF FEELING LOVE. Links, graphics, and extensive references at www.danwinter.com/eartHeart Recently, with the marketing of my new invention, www.danwinter.com/heartlink & www.heartbeat2000.com we have discovered a mathematical technique to access this directly. (coherence of internal harmonic interval spacing and measuring the (Phi>moment.) Simply put, we take the second order frequency signature of the fft as itself a wave. (NOT the inverse fft). (pictures at heartlink link) The height or amplitude of the first peak of this second fft clearly appears to be 1. A RADICAL NEW WAY TO QUANTIFY OR MEASURE COHERENCE IN GENERAL. This is a way to TEACH hearts (or brains) to recognize instantly as they are entering coherence. I have summarized this new technique for instantly feeding back AN INTERNAL VALUE OF COHERENCE at www.danwinter.com/coherence And 2. The position of this first peak, is literally the inverse of the distance between contained harmonics in the heart (and easily applied to brain). Literally: SPACES IN THE HEART. This value repeatedly correlates to the subject report of the NATURE OF THE EMOTION OF THAT MOMENT (amplitude=3Demotional intensity, position=3Demotional description) according to the following table:(gathered also with the help of clinical evaluation of Heartlink in Spain) www.danwinter.com/heartlink/marysol.html 0.4 SADNESS/GRIEF 0.5 SECURITY/PLEASURE 0.6(18?) WONDER/LOVE 0.7 SINCERITY/TRUTH 0.8 PEACE/OPENNESS 0.9 WELL-BEING/REALITY 1.0 SATISFACTION/INTELLECT 2.2 HEALING/RECEIVING Note: number from display is the actual hz inverse of distance between peaks, as displayed on HeartLink. This value we are calling "EMOTIONAL INDEX" or EI. Simply put here, there is a kind of continuum from .618 the Golden Mean or Wonder/Love position in the heart "which is membrane transcending (&Ed Wilson work on eeg showed Phi created the definition of transcendence at Monroe Institute)..to 1.0 Log of Two, "Incubation" which is the intellectual (CEO position), head centered, And membrane creating." "For the psychological and MEDITATIVE meaning of this movement from PENT to HEX, from log PHI, to log TWO, (nonlinear to linear) Please see www.danwinter.com/merkabbah/merkabbah.html" "We have also had considerable success already in displaying this value for the heart SIMULTANEOUS WITH A PHASE LOCK TO EEG SIMILARLY ANALYZED." "This has also been reported from Marysol in Spain as well. (with thanks here). These images we will also have on the web soon. (Thanks to Andrew Junker whose cyberlink technology he has helped evolve into our own HeartLink.. windows cursor control from 3 brain electrodes: www.brainfingers.com )" "IN SUMMARY" "We feel confident that a new tool for making coherence powerfully teachable is at hand, and would be pleased to collaborate with the vast network of the TM research initiative to make this more shareable and useful to the world." "I would consider bringing my rather elaborate 2 computer/projector 2 channel heartlink multimedia roadshow (fresh from 3 continents) to your Boone facility and perhaps to Fairfield, Iowa.. if there were some serious invite to share there, particularly with a view to initiating a critical and detailed constructive dialog about the pure principles here, and useful next steps to work together.." "Thank you for offering to make introductions to Fred Travis in research there, and to appropriate contact(s) in Boone. I really hope we can initiate some constructive dialog and collaboration. VERY warmly.. in the "lo phi" as we say, Dan Winter" addend: a note here: you will find on my web site www.danwinter.com/eartHeart and at www.heartbeat2000.com extensive collaboration around global link ups for a millennium massive internet mediated phase entrainment event, which is SO CLOSE to what your movement has been teaching for years. We have merely added heart measures, new ways of teaching coherence, and internet mediation for sharing that data simultaneously around the globe. Myself and one of our key communicators James Barrett (captioned above plclark@pacbell.net), would be pleased to communicate in a practical way about collaboration with your very global network." "And 2. you will also find on my web site extensive links to studies I have been doing around the extra terrestrial origins of our genepool, and what we might do about it. (begin for example at www.danwinter.com/origins" "For example I believe that the measures Glen Rein made at my suggestion of DNA's braid density responding to EKG coherence, presage Emotion's programming of genetic braid implosion to superluminal and time travel cohering. This genepool empowering from glands is bardo penetrant and lucid dream enabling beyond what heavy metal technology and gene splicing could ever sustain." "My ET information is VERY controversial. Please feel free to ignore it, or take an active interest as you are inclined. There are some in my group who find my interests in ET information occasionally embarrassing to our collaboration. Perhaps near events will soon sort out who is seeing clearly." Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2473 From: Sanna Hanskala Subject: Re: off-topic "fantasy" Xavier wrote: "Sanna Hanskala, sannah @ earthlink.net, http://home.earthlink.net/~sannah/" "'Fantasy' as a word refers to something that doesn't exist, but it doesn't mean that what we now perceive as fantasy can't be real." "I believe "Fantasy" refers the world of Faes, and this has nothing to do with "unreal", only with "invisible to physical eyes". This is one more trick of the beast: to denature the meaning of words and put the spirit out of words." "e.g. "imagination" has nothing to do with unreal either, as a matter of fact, imagination is the main creative power of human beings." "So in common language of these last decades, "fantasy" refers to unreal, but this is a degradation of the true meaning that occurred because our civilization is in a process of materialistic cancerization." "Technically I suppose that "Fantasy" might refer to the astral plane. And for those that travel consciously in that plane, they all agree that if there is something "unreal", it's the physical dense illusion we live in everyday. :) Anyway it feels unreal to them, once they know the reality from inside." There's absolutely nothing I disagree with ;) However, my signature is kinda "aimed" for "ordinary" people to whom fantasy DOES mean "not real" and who've never heard of any astral planes. To a degree I include myself into that group. Excluding dreams, I haven't had any direct experience of the astral plane. Well, you are the first one ever to say anything about my signature. :) If anybody has a better word to replace "fantasy", I'm all ears. ~ Sanna Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2474 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Re: Sources JJ writes: "If we send Light and Love to anyone on the dark path or of a low vibration or someone who will use power contrary to the good of the whole then the Light and Love we send will be transmuted to the lower centers and all we will do is energize the lower desires of these people." JJ, this made me laugh! Because my first thought was if there is one person in this world who DOESN'T need any more energy sent to his lower centers, it is Bill Clinton! LOL Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2475 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: The Second Temptation JJ writes: "Matt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, Matt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. "Here the adversary used a different tactic - the written Word of God, the scriptures that Jesus cherished as holding the promises of God. This being quoted to Jesus words he adamantly believed to be true and challenged him to test those words." "Jesus could have reasoned as follows: "He's right. The scriptures do say that the angels will watch over the Messiah and if they are really true and if I am the Messiah then I should be able to jump off the temple and yet be protected. If I did this in front of hundreds or thousands of people then no one would doubt me." Yes, this would have been true... but in a way that would have been to prove Jesus was somebody in relation to everybody else, it would not have been him doing something *for* others. I think there's a tiny amount of ego involved if he had jumped to prove who he was, in a way it could have widened the gap between him and other people, and we are all one and equal under God. JJ wrote: "He would have been relying on the power of mortal flesh had he attempted to do so. (turn stone into bread)" This was maya, so if Jesus had been fallen inside the illusion of glamour from 2nd temptation of Satan, would it have been relying on the power of mortal desire, in this case the feeling that being Son of God, I can do anything, and I am saved anyway? If Jesus trusted the voice of Spirit within, as he did, then he knew he already was saved. "Jesus had a firm belief that God would always fulfill His promises so if God is true to his word then this would be a miracle that God would be bound to honor, even if He did not receive permission from the inner voice." Yes, but had Jesus cast himself down that would have been tempting God, because it would have been doing a mundane deed to prove you're a spiritual person, it would have been like saying that I can do a 'less than perfect' human thing *which was not necessary to do* to prove to those outside what Jesus already firmly knew he was inside. For those pure at heart, God will fulfill His promises, but not for those who do deeds 'less than' just to prove they're saved anyway, because ultimately salvation is our choice, it is not forced upon us. If Jesus did not receive permission from the inner voice to cast himself and would had done what Satan asked him to do, wouldn't he have been following the voice of the beast, even if God had promised these things? Isn't the question whose voice we follow first, if the word is once given, why doubt it afterwards? This would show lack of faith. "Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference?" "If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" I think Karen made a good point, saved in which way, what part of him would have been saved? I think what makes the difference here is would it have been done to prove 'I am Son of God' (self) or 'This is what each and every one of you can become just as I have' (others). You don't do things just to amuse yourself, you do them because there's a purpose. God's words hold true before they need any proof, Jesus knew in his heart of hearts he was Son of God without having to prove it to himself, the only reason why there would have been a point in casting oneself down would have been to show to others what can be done with true Faith, not because it was *Jesus*, Son of God doing it per se. Much love, Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2476 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: soul-contact, reply to Lelona. Xavier wrote: "Actually this is LeLona :) "I'm sure you didn't intend to infer that Diane and I don't have soul contact like Xavier and Samu "seem" to, but it's ok that you used me (I can't speak for Diane) as an example. Frankly, I resemble that remark! :)" Dearest LeLona, if someone here is having soul contact it does not come or go away because someone would say it is so. I know I wouldn't have soul contact just because JJ or anybody says it is so (and actually JJ never said this:), I would have it because I would feel my mind and heart resonating with the highest I can perceive to be the truth. Do I always know the answers to JJ's questions? No, definitely not. However, I do feel that resonance a lot of times when I really need to stretch my being to find answer to the questions proposed here. Sometimes when I do indeed find the right answer, just for a split second I think, of course, it can't be any other way. But many times when I reread what I have written to express my ideas, I find myself lacking clarity, and in finding the right words to get straight to the core of it all. So what is soul contact? I believe we all experience it from time to time, they are those moments when we get answers seemingly out of nowhere, and everything just seems to make sense, if only for that short amount of time. I have no doubt even those here on this list who say they haven't received soul contact actually have. The difference is the amount of time we spend 'connected'. The better we come at it, the more often and stronger we hear the voice of Spirit within. Also, when someone writes answers that have been received during soul contact, they are not necessary answers for someone else. Or, sometimes they give the right direction for others to find their answers. Sometimes when I'm really lost trying to find answers, I read your posts here on the list, and they trigger, not just something but a lot, inside of me. The only one each one of us competes with is ourselves. Like it's been said, on the infinite spiritual ladder each point is as far away from what seems as perfection from that point, and every step is equally important in the whole. When we better ourselves and become more spiritually, we are all winners. This is Xavier here :) "Now if you talk about insights, well maybe it's easier for a man to answer another man's questions." I am not sure if this is so. Can you elaborate what you mean Xavier? Much love to All, Samu :) Post No. keys-1/1999-01-13/2477 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: off-topic "fantasy" Xavier writes: "What I think is true: Fantasy for me is a world in the astral plane. Very real, very magical, and a key to physical manifestation. But maybe not the "fantasy" you referred to. The Land of Fantasy, ok?" Hmmm... So that is like a manifestation of your subconscious, a world where *anything* is possible, right? :) One level where we may travel during our dreamtime, yep? "Imagination, rather "Creative Imagination" is a divine power naturally available to human, and the driving force behind all creation." Agreed, definitely agreed :) "If you thought of fantasy as being inner trips, well it's the same as imagination." Well, couldn't you say that imagination is spirit and fantasy is soul? Like, imagination is the force behind fantasy, the one that moulds it into a certain form? Imagination is the Great Central Broadcast Station, and Fantasy is what the show becomes once it's on the air :) "Yet to use consciously and efficiently creative imagination, one needs training and development." Yes, becoming aware of your own thoughts, self-discipline, focus. "BTW your posts are a sparkle, you might feed a starving writer looking for insights for years. Fountain is your hidden name?" And Piscean pondering is my game :) Thank you Xavier, I am just expressing what I have inside, nothing more, nothing less :) "one more thing: a sexist remark :) has the story "Shipwrecked" been written by a woman? Anyway the man is helpless and the woman divine. Let's share it will you girls? (what would you do without us? I know this one what too much, just kidding ::))" Oh no... I didn't mean to make it an gender issue with what I wrote in reply to Diane's story :) Actually I first though it was written by a woman who as very good at pointing out certain stereotypic things about a 'nerdy' type of male dude :) But, it could have also been written by a guy with a great sense of humor, someone who is able to laugh at himself too. Either way, I laughed at the story. "Man helpless and woman divine..." Hehehe, well I think it can be the other way around, it can be any one way, I don't really believe in stereotypes by large. Women can drive men crazy (in a positive passionate sense:) but it can be the other way around too. And what's so terrible horrible about it? I don't believe in being uptight, it blocks things. I really do not subscribe to sexism, but sometimes I wonder when does a man telling a woman that she is sexy and desirable become a sexist remark? Well, one thing is disrespect, selfishness and rudeness, no doubt. But to be honest, if that couple on the desert island on Diane's story would have done what I, yes the male me, :) assumed to happen when the woman made the first move, I can't think of what would have been so bad about it at all :) Sanna wrote: "There's absolutely nothing I disagree with ;) However, my signature is kinda "aimed" for "ordinary" people to whom fantasy DOES mean "not real" and who've never heard of any astral planes. To a degree I include myself into that group. Excluding dreams, I haven't had any direct experience of the astral plane." But Sanna, where do those beautiful paintings and drawings of yours come from then? :) "If anybody has a better word to replace "fantasy", I'm all ears." Well, I think the only difference between fantasy and what's real is how long it takes for those imaginative thoughts to manifest so that we can perceive them, using our 'normal' 5 senses or the 6th one :) Much love, Samu :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01012/2478 From: "peregrine falcon" Subject: Re: The Second Temptation "If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" Coming back from being gone a month, I am yet to read the previous posts, but taking a stab at this question I would have to say that having not asked although the trust implied. Physically, he would have been hurt, yes. However, having his full trust in God, spiritually, yes, he would have been saved. Just a stab, going to read the other posts. Later Kyle Kissmann Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2479 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: This wonderful list I was just reading through the archives today, because I feel lost again (I guess the intuitive part of me ebbs and flows, like some others have mentioned happens to them). I have also noticed that I have the attention span of a gnat. The longer the post, the less likely I am to read it thoroughly. If it is succinct, no problem. There is a long way to go on this spiritual path for me, and I know I'm not alone. I was trying to envision the length of the path last night, like maybe it's being as long as going around the world ten times (I know it is an infinite journey). But I was thinking if that is how long the path is, then in terms of spiritual growth, I haven't even left my hometown, let alone hit the highway! And I even felt disconnected from God last night too. Waaah! :) Hearing more about illusion and how to recognize which ones we are operating under is something that I think might be valuable to us all (if you disagree and there are any illusion scholars out there, then please e-mail me direct). Still trudging the road to happy destiny, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-01013/2480 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: The Second Temptation J J Dewey wrote: "Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference?" "If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" The illusion was the statement that the Son of God would be protected at all costs, even that it involved an action that was contrary to the will of God. Not that God's promise to protect Jesus was false but I don't think it was unconditional (and certainly not forever when one thinks about the physical harm that Jesus eventually endured). Like the first temptation, Jesus was tempted to act for his own benefit and not in the service of others. He was tempted to listen to the urgings of his negative ego rather than his inner guidance to prove to the devil that he was the Son of God and avoid the devil's taunts. I can imagine the sarcasm of the devil, 'IF thou be the Son of God .....'. It could have been a great temptation just for the pleasure of shutting him up. Therein lies the difference between the two temptations - one was to satisfy his own bodily cravings while the other was to prove himself and his credibility to another. Many people with enormous potential for good have been deluded into thinking that their actions are God ordained, willed and blessed, and they have been in error. They have often died for their mistake believing that God would save them at the last minute. If Jesus had cast himself down, I don't think he would have been saved (except perhaps by a supernatural gift of grace) and such an action would have placed him outside the parameters for receiving protection - ie being receptive to the inner voice so that He could hear clearly God's guidance and will; being open to the one who was greater than himself. Love to ALL Glenys -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= I think it pisses God off if you walk by the colour purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it. - Alice Walker Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2481 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: OT Cool Inner Voice Story A friend sent this to me today. Coincidence? I don't think so. ------- Does God Still Speak To Us? A young man had been to Wednesday night Bible Study. The Pastor had shared about listening to God and obeying the Lord's voice. The young man couldn't help but wonder, "Does God still speak to people?" After service he went out with some friends for coffee and pie and they discussed the message. Several different ones talked about how God had led them in different ways. It was about ten o'clock when the young man started driving home. Sitting in his car, he just began to pray, "God.. If you still speak to people speak to me. I will listen. I will do my best to obey." As he drove down the main street of his town, he had the strangest thought, stop and buy a gallon of milk. He shook his head and said out loud, "God is that you?" He didn't get a reply and started on toward home. But again, the thought, buy a gallon of milk. The young man thought about Samuel and how he didn't recognize the voice of God, and how little Samuel ran to Eli. "Okay, God, in case that is you, I will buy the milk." It didn't seem like too hard a test of obedience. He could always use the milk. He stopped and purchased the gallon of milk and started off toward home. As he passed Seventh Street, he again felt the urge, "Turn down that street." This is crazy he thought and drove on pass the intersection. Again, he felt that he should turn down Seventh Street. At the next intersection, he turned back and headed down Seventh. Half jokingly, he said out loud, "Okay, God, I will". He drove several blocks, when suddenly, he felt like he should stop. He pulled over to the curb and looked around. He was in semi- commercial area of town. It wasn't the best but it wasn't the worst of neighborhoods either. The businesses were closed and most of the houses looked dark like the people were already in bed. Again, he sensed something, "Go and give the milk to the people in the house across the street." The young man looked at the house. It was dark and it looked like the people were either gone or they were already asleep. He started to open the door and then sat back in the car seat. "Lord, this is insane. Those people are asleep and if I wake them up, they are going to be mad and I will look stupid." Again, he felt like he should go and give the milk. Finally, he opened the door, "Okay God, if this is you, I will go to the door and I will give them the milk. If you want me to look like a crazy person, okay. I want to be obedient. I guess that will count for something but if they don't answer right away, I am out of here." He walked across the street and rang the bell. He could hear some noise inside. A man's voice yelled out, "Who is it? What do you want?" Then the door opened before the young man could get away. The man was standing there in his jeans and t-shirt. He looked like he just got out of bed. He had a strange look on his face and he didn't seem to happy to have some stranger standing on his doorstep. "What is it?" The young man thrust out the gallon of milk, "Here, I brought this to you." The man took the milk and rushed down a hall way speaking loudly in Spanish. Then from down the hall came a woman carrying the milk toward the kitchen. The man was following her holding a baby. The baby was crying. The man had tears streaming down his face. The man began speaking and half crying, "We were just praying. We had some big bills this month and we ran out of money. We didn't have any milk for our baby. I was just praying and asking God to show me how to get some milk." His wife in the kitchen yelled out, "I ask him to send an Angel with some.. Are you an Angel?" The young man reached into his wallet and pulled out all the money he had on him and put in the man's hand. He turned and walked back toward his car and the tears were streaming down his face. He knew that God still answers prayers. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2482 From: John Kosior Subject: Re: The Second Temptation J J Dewey wrote: "Jesus had a firm belief that God would always fulfill His promises so if God is true to his word then this would be a miracle that God would be bound to honor, even if He did not receive permission from the inner voice." "Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference?" "If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" Hi Folks, A little side note here. I've referred to all of you as "folks" on many occasions. I would have you know that I seldom choose a word or phrase without having some distinct reason for doing so. In this case, when I use the word folks, I see it as an acronym for the "Finders Of Life's Keys". And this is how I see all of you. So now you know. I'd also like to give my thanks to Xavier. You may never fully know the encouragement you've been to me and others, but I sure do! I wish great blessings upon you, my friend. So on to the question at hand. I think here too, the issue comes to denial of identity. And the word that keeps coming to mind is illumination. Meaning here, that Jesus at this point is already quite sure of His identity. He's already been Illuminated as to this truth. Knowing this, if He throws himself from the temple, once again answering the challenge "If you be the Son of God", He would be giving in to the idea that there is "one more step" before I get to this truth. Just this one more thing. But there was no more to say or prove. Throwing Himself off would have been a complete denial of what He already knew to be true. With this in mind, I think that if He did throw Himself off, he'd have landed just as hard as you or I would. That is if we were to try this without the express voice of Holy Spirit within saying, "go". Closing thought. I hear this challenge in my head like this, "If you're Son of God, throw yourself off" And the answer coming back, "If I'm Son of God, I needn't prove it with some foolish test." This is glamour at its most subtle level. If we try to prove that we are something we're not, it's easy to see the glamour in this. But it's the same glamour even if we try "to prove" that we are something we are. If you feel like you gotta prove it, it probably aint so. Later FOLKS :)) John Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2483 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Very Off Topic Joke I mean no harm or disrespect, but I couldn't pass up sharing this. ((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 This fundamentalist Christian couple felt it important to own an equally fundamentally Christian pet. So, they went shopping. At a kennel specializing in this particular breed, they found a dog they liked quite a lot. When they asked the dog to fetch the Bible, he did it in a flash. When they instructed him to look up Psalm 23, he complied equally fast, using his paws with dexterity. They were impressed, purchased the animal, and went home (piously, of course). That night they had friends over. They were so proud of their new fundamentalist dog and his major skills, they called the dog and showed off a little. The friends were impressed, and asked whether the dog was able to do any of the usual dog tricks, as well. This stopped the couple cold, as they hadn't thought about "normal" tricks. Well, they said, "let's try this out." Once more they called the dog, and they clearly pronounced the command, "Heel!" Quick as a wink, the dog jumped up, put his paw on the man's forehead, closed his eyes in concentration, and bowed his head. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2484 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Very Off Topic Joke Karen Surface wrote: "I mean no harm or disrespect, but I couldn't pass up sharing this. "((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119" That was a good one Karen. Thanks for sharing it. May I pass it on to a friend who is sick right now? It may give her a lift in spirits. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2485 From: TeKnoBabL Subject: Re: The Second Temptation You write: "Jesus had a firm belief that God would always fulfill His promises so if God is true to his word then this would be a miracle that God would be bound to honor, even if He did not receive permission from the inner voice." "Questions: Where is the illusion here? What similarities are there to the illusion of the first temptation and where is the difference?" "If He had jumped from the temple would he have been saved?" Here, again, Satan tries to get Jesus to mistrust the voice from within through glamour. As Xavier wrote: "I am so good and beloved I can do anything and I'll be saved." Following JJ's example from his post "Stones to Bread" I'll venture that just as hunger wasn't THE temptation, the expanded feeling of importance wasn't either. The maya and glamour used was only the bait to be caught in a much bigger trap--Illusion. The illusion being the position of /Messiah/ is given, not earned. Only after he passed the 3 temptations would he have earned that title and fulfilled the scripture. If he had jumped I think he would have died and be known today as the crackpot instead of the Messiah. Still tinkering with my receiver, Rob Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2486 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Very Off Topic Joke Yeah Laughter is like Light, the more the better, good vibes. Karen Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2487 From: "TwinStorms" Subject: Folksters John K wrote; "In this case, when I use the word folks, I see it as an acronym for the "Finders Of Life's Keys". And this is how I see all of you. So now you know. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No more Keysters, Yea! John has created a name for this Group of Seekers of Truth! What do you think of FOLKS or to stay consistent FOLKSTERS. Light, Love and Power One for All and All for One! TwinStorms AKA James Bryan Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2488 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: This wonderful list Tracy, It was very bothersome to me when I saw the list of illusions, but it made me more aware of what behaviors they manifest themselves and are easier to spot in myself and others. When I catch myself operating under one of the "glorious" illusions, I shake my head, laugh and call myself and old fool. When I see that behavior in others, I try to politely point it out, Sometimes the message takes and sometimes the person looks at me, shakes their head and calls me an old fool. ((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2489 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: The Second Temptation Hello Y'all, I can't say how Christ felt. I wasn't there and am way to human to speculate how sure he was of being the Messiah, but you all have got me thinking. This temptation reminds me of the test JJ had to go through before he was allowed to continue his studies with John. The lesson seemed to me to be Listen and Remember the moment you Knew. I cannot image Christ performing any of his miracles without going to that small quiet voice and saying, not my will, but thine. Listening... Then OK let's do it. Is this too simple, do I not grasp the Big Picture? ((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2490 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Sources Man, I wish I had read about the Dark Brotherhood a long time ago. I voted for him twice. I thought here is a poor boy done growed up and done good, made his moma proud. I should have known nobody can go that far up that fast through that much bull-hockey without having good friends in the Dark9or dark)%))) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2491 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Re Latest Members List GREETINGS from Southwestern Virginia,U.S. Where I live with a pack of Jack Russell Terriers on a small mountain farm surrounded by good neighbors and great friends world-wide, thanks to the magic of the net. ((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-12/2492 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: The Second Temptation HI Karen, I love how you get right to the heart of the matter. These last few days of posts from you and all the other FOLKs have been very thought provoking. Xavier's have been from his unique point of view. Samu had some amazing things to say today too. I think that you may be exactly right; it's simple, that doesn't mean it's easy, just simple. diane * . (\ **** /) * . * . * ( \(_)/ ) * .* . (_/ || \ _) . * . . * . /____\ * . . * Follow your dreams! Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2493 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: OT Cool Inner Voice Story! Thanks Tracey, this one's a keeper. Karen "A friend sent this to me today. Coincidence? I don't think so." "Does God Still Speak To Us?" Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2494 From: Joseph D. Stevens Subject: Re: soul-contact, reply to Lelona. Dear Spirit; If I might be of humble service, How do you know when you have contact? What does it feel like when you scrape your knee? How do you relate to pain in your body or spirit as others do? GREAT questions that deserve an answer.....I (meaning the collective I) have NO IDEA how anyone else relates to the feeling of wind blowing across my skin. Every living soul can try to describe to you waht it feels like BUT they do not know for sure.. They can only relate to you in words as to what they are feeling. (Ex.)>The wind blowing across my skin could be painfull to me while to you it is a gental caress.. I probably missed the whole point so pardon my butting in;;;papajoe Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2495 From: xavier Subject: Re : Re: The Second Temptation Yes Karen, sounds like you made the bell ring loud and clear. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2496 From: J J Dewey Subject: Trusting the Silent Voice Tracy's story reminded me of a true life experience I thought I would share with you. Here is the skeleton of it. When I was a young man I found I began to pick up on inner messages and discovered that the more I trusted them the clearer they became. After having several fairly astounding things happen I was quite proud of myself as a receiver. Then one night after I retired to bed after a difficult day I received a message that a friend of mine was in trouble. The feeling was disturbing, but I told myself that whatever it was could wait until morning. As I drifted off to sleep I did so feeling that somehow I wasn't supposed to wait until morning, but because I was so tired and it was so inconvenient I ignored the feeling. The first thing the next morning I went to visit my friend. The first thing she did was look at me accusingly and said: "I thought you told me that you could pick up on things when there is a problem with someone you are close to. Well I did a terrible thing last night and somehow I thought that you might show up and stop me, but you didn't. So much for your funny feelings!" My jaw dropped as I thought about how disappointed I was in myself for ignoring the inner voice, if even for a few hours. I explained to her that I had received a message to go to her, but at this point she shut down and refused to believe me. Because I did not respond when I was instructed this person made a big mistake that cost her dearly. As I reflected on my mistake I said an inner prayer to God and told Him that I would follow the next message I received even if the time was inconvenient. The Powers that Be must have heard my silent words for something up there decided to put me to the test. About a week later a message came again. This time it was not a convenient 10:30 at night but three in the morning. At this early hour I woke with a jolt with a powerful taste of aspirin in my mouth. My mouth was dry and it tasted like I had about two tablespoons of powdered aspirin around my tongue. I immediately felt that someone close to me was thinking about suicide, probably by taking an overdose of aspirin. I looked at the clock and saw that it was three in the morning and thought to myself, surely God does not expect me to go wake someone up at this hour, besides maybe I am just imagining this and the morning is not that far away. I laid back down and tried to go back to sleeping thinking that maybe the feeling would go away, but it didn't. Then I remembered my promise, that I would respond to the inner voice the next time it came no matter how inconvenient. I sat up again and tuned in. Yes, I concluded, the message is real, I was not imagining it. Now the question was who was it that was thinking of suicide and why would they be thinking of it at three in the morning? Good heavens, can't people commit suicide during normal hours! I concentrated within and a name came to me. The person who came to mind was a fairly good looking married lady friend of mine that had taken a liking to me and her husband had taken a disliking to me. I thought to myself that if I go knock on their door at three in the morning and he answers there's a good chance he'll punch me out. As I reflected the inner voice told me to hurry. I rushed over to her home and went up to her door and stood there a moment. At this point I was really tempted to withdraw and head back home. This is silly, I thought. There is no light on in the house, my friend is obviously in bed and there's no logical reason why this can't wait until in the morning. I started to turn around when that nagging inner voice came back and said "knock on the door." I had visions of her growling husband coming down the stairs with a shotgun, but I gathered my courage and knocked. No answer. I knocked again harder. No answer. There, " said to myself. I've done what you said, now I'm going home. "Knock again harder" said the inner voice. I paused and finally thought, what the heck and pounded very hard on the door. This time it had an effect and lights immediately turned on. After a few minutes my friend, whose name was Sylvia answered the door. She looked at me with some surprise. Her husband shouted from the bedroom up the stairs: "Sylvy, what's going on down there?" She answered him back and said: "Nothing honey, just go back to sleep." Fortunately, the guy seemed to go back to sleep and Sylvia invited me inside. After we sat down I said to her: Sylvia, I received a message this morning that you were thinking of committing suicide by taking an overdose of aspirin and I have come here to stop you. She looked at me with a blank stare. Then I said: "Have you been thinking of committing suicide?" Then she laughed at me and said, "Of course not. Everything is fine. What in the world made you think that?" I felt kind of foolish as I blurted out, "I just had a feeling about you." "Well, tell that feeling to go away. I know from some things you have taught me that you think you can get messages about things, but let me tell you, this time you are 100 per cent wrong. I'm fine, my husband is find, everything is fine. Now you'd better go before he wakes up." As I left her place I considered that it seemed that I had made a fool of myself, but at least I obeyed and started to head back home. Then the inner voice came again, "You are not done, there is still danger." Next I thought that perhaps I was wrong about Sylvia. Maybe it was someone else. I reflected over a list of friends who may be the problem and went to their houses. Between about 4 AM to 6 AM I woke up about a half dozen friends and asked them if they were thinking about suicide. After they got over the shock of waking up so early most of them thought it was quite funny that I was rambling around town waking people up asking them if they were going to kill themselves. They kidded me about this "funny feeling" I had for some time afterwards. I went back home and rested for a short while but the Spirit within me told me my job was not yet done. So I took off again and spent most of the day visiting every friend I could think of asking them questions trying to discover if there may be a problem, but could find none. Finally in the late afternoon I had exhausted all of my resources, but the powerful feeling persisted that I had not discovered the problem. Finally I withdrew into myself and reflected trying to discern who the real suicidal person was. As I reflected I had the feeling that I was right the first time. The person was Sylvia. About 4 PM (around 12 hours from the first visit) I returned and knocked on her door again. She answered and was there alone while her husband was at work. She invited me in and we sat down again. After some small talk I told her again that I suspected that she was not telling me the truth and was thinking about suicide and pleaded with her to come clean with me. She said: "You may get some inspiration from time to time, but this time you are wrong. Everything is fine. How many times do I have to tell you that your feeling is wrong?" I looked into her eyes and they seemed to be so honest, so sincere, so truthful. How could I be so silly as to think she is telling me such a bold face lie. Maybe, just maybe I am wrong this time. Maybe I was just lucky in times past that the inner voice was right." I started to get up and head for the door when the Spirit rested upon me and somehow I finally knew for sure that Sylvia was lying to me. I sat back down and looked Sylvia in the eyes and said these words: "Sylvia, the Spirit of God is resting upon me and telling me that you are not telling the truth. There is a major problem and you must tell me about it now. Why were you thinking of killing yourself?" I couldn't believe I was saying those words. What if she laughed at me again? But she didn't laugh. This time her countenance changed in an instant and she put her face in her hands and wept with great emotion. She cried out, "You are right. Last night I did something terrible. I committed adultery and when I came home late at night I was thinking of committing suicide and the only way I could think of doing it was to take a bottle of aspirin I had. Then I went to bed still thinking about it when I heard a knock on the door and it was you. I immediately thought to myself that somehow you knew my intentions, but did my best to deceive you, but you wouldn't leave me alone would you?" "It's God who won't leave you alone," I said. Well you certainly distracted me so I didn't take the aspirin, but I've still been very depressed. I counseled her on making the best of the rest of her life and left with a very light and joyous feeling that a life had been saved. She had her share of problems because of her mistake, but as far as I know never again contemplated taking her life. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2497 From: J J Dewey Subject: Unraveling Illusion John, The FOLKS idea is a very good one. My feeling on a current name is this. Whatever evolves among the group is what we should do. However, this group is preparation for other organizations that will have predetermined names. Karen, your reminder to be aware of the last message we have received cannot be repeated too often. If we all follow that advice much illusion will be revealed. Glenys and Rob came close to the illusion by stating that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself off the temple. The answer to the following question will reveal the illusion that even made the Son of God think twice. God promised that the Messiah would be protected by angels. Therefore, it would seem that there is no way that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself from the temple. It appears he could have put God in a corner because of His Word just as Moses did (as we discussed in a previous post). The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer. Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2498 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Trusting the Silent Voice JJ Dewey writes: "When I was a young man I found I began to pick up on inner messages and discovered that the more I trusted them the clearer they became. After having several fairly astounding things happen I was quite proud of myself as a receiver." I don't get the connection as to why you would have put your skeleton story on the list at this time, other than to demonstrate what pride can do. Because the younger JJ was proud of being a receiver it took him all day long and into the evening to get back to the place he was at in the beginning, at Sylvia's house, after running around all day long. So pride distorted his trust in what he heard, but it didn't distort the Spirit's silent voice coming in. The Spirit never gave up. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2499 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: The Second Temptation Glenys writes: "The illusion was the statement that the Son of God would be protected at all costs, even that it involved an action that was contrary to the will of God. Not that God's promise to protect Jesus was false but I don't think it was unconditional (and certainly not forever when one thinks about the physical harm that Jesus eventually endured)." First of all, I really admire the way you are able to express your bright ideas so clearly, Glenys, keep up the wonderful work of your sharp mind! :) I think the last sentence you write up there is very interesting. Does God's love always mean saving or protecting one in the sense we usually think of it? I think God puts much more value for someone having the faith to show to others that even if his body was killed, he transcended the illusion of death and had eternal life because of his faith in God and Her words. Physical momentarily suffering was of no importance in comparison to showing what anybody could spiritually achieve via trust in Inner Self and God, even if being ridiculed, laughed at, and having masses not believing who you knew you were. Jesus knew that the growth of many always comes before advancement of one, and in fact when one reaches a certain level he or she can and has the responsibility, which at that stage feels more like honorable service to One, of being a model for others and by example show to others what can be reached, so that others have something/someone to show them the way and keep them motivated. After the resurrection, non-believers either closed their eyes continuing to deny the truth, or they were 'converted' out of their own choice and started seeking for theirs. So, the crucifixion and what happened thereafter was something that we all benefited from, no doubt about it. Unfortunately there are still people who deny or do not care to look at the most amazing thing that ever happened, forgetting that they could experience the same, and more, if they chose that path. I also see similarities between the 3 temptations we are discussing and crucifixion. Had Jesus while being on the cross been told 'if you're Son of God, save yourself' and he had chosen to do so, again he had been saying that there was more to be thru doing to become who he already was. But after his physical body had been killed, he was saved anyway because of his faith, and he was granted eternal life. Also I've been thinking what a good example the 3 temptations are of Light benefiting from the existence of Dark, using the 'opposite of' good and God to further and develop Light. When adversary tempted Jesus, he did a big favor to Jesus, because if he had fallen inside the illusion, that would have been a proof that Jesus indeed wasn't quite there yet, and he definitely wanted to be pure, and in case it hadn't been so, I am sure even he would have thought it was better that he had fallen for the trap. On the other hand, there was no possibility that would have happened because he knew who was :) "Like the first temptation, Jesus was tempted to act for his own benefit and not in the service of others. He was tempted to listen to the urgings of his negative ego rather than his inner guidance to prove to the devil that he was the Son of God and avoid the devil's taunts. I can imagine the sarcasm of the devil, 'IF thou be the Son of God .....'. It could have been a great temptation just for the pleasure of shutting him up." Indeed :) Many of us 'mortals' do that in every day life. It can be very tempting to proove you are right just so you don't have to listen to somebody you know is wrong, heheheee :) Human traits... :) "Many people with enormous potential for good have been deluded into thinking that their actions are God ordained, willed and blessed, and they have been in error. They have often died for their mistake believing that God would save them at the last minute." Yes. That's a trap many even advanced people fall into. They have received signs that they're on the right path, and the interpret them to mean that they have been given God's blessing, and are saved no matter what they do from that point on. Not so. Like Rob said, the status of savior is earned, not given, and that means you live that pure life impeccably, you do not do lower deeds from a higher position, because your deeds equal your status. God saves, when we realize we can save ourselves thru our worth and equality, by being who we really are. It really wouldn't be fair to us to be saved before we have realized our own power and willingness to serve All, because then we still wouldn't know what those things fully mean. "I think it pisses God off if you walk by the colour purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it. - Alice Walker" Hehehehee, I just think I'll have to agree with Alice on this one :D Peace to y'all!! Samu :) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2500 From: John Kosior Subject: FOLKS? Other Organizations? J J Dewey wrote: "John, The FOLKS idea is a very good one. My feeling on a current name is this." Hi Folks, I never really imagined replacing the "Keysters" name. "Folks" was truly just the first thought that came to mind when I last posted. Certainly our "name" makes absolutely no difference to me. But of course, we should call ourselves whatever the group feels most comfortable with. "Whatever evolves among the group is what we should do. However, this group is preparation for other organizations that will have predetermined names." Oh really? Well, JJ, you know you can't throw a comment like this out to a group of aware types and expect not to be asked to comment further. I for one would love to hear you expand on this thought. Always nice to know where we're heading.:) Thanks, John Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2501 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: soul-contact, reply to Lelona. Papajoe writes: "Dear Spirit; If I might be of humble service, How do you know when you have contact? What does it feel like when you scrape your knee? How do you relate to pain in your body or spirit as others do? GREAT questions that deserve an answer.....I (meaning the collective I) have NO IDEA how anyone else relates to the feeling of wind blowing across my skin. Every living soul can try to describe to you what it feels like BUT they do not know for sure.. They can only relate to you in words as to what they are feeling. (Ex.) The wind blowing across my skin could be painful to me while to you it is a gentle caress.. I probably missed the whole point so pardon my butting in;;;papajoe" Well Papajoe, I think an important point is brought up here, which is related to Karen's comment about not being able to say how Christ felt :) This also reminds me of when JJ said that in the end truth is one, but in its discovery it is many. Truth does not change, but our experience and expression of it does. An experience is tied to who you are, as an individual, to your past and who you are on the way to become thru the moment of now. There aren't 2 paths totally alike, thus no 2 persons who would relate to a certain experience exactly the same way. That is also why no- one can tell you if *you* have soul contact right now. You know it is so, but have do you explain that feeling to others? They either believe or then they don't. I do believe when one experiences the moment of clarity and stillness during soul contact, it is simple impossible to deny it wouldn't be real. It would be like a spiritual orgasm, there's no way you could doubt your experience of fulfillment. I remember how I used to wonder if I had had lucid dreams before I ever experienced one. When I finally experienced that lucid state, there was absolutely no doubt of the genuineness of what I had experienced. And I still cannot explain to others what it feels like. But if I talk with someone who had had the same experience, I can here from her voice and words we have experienced the same thing. Now, even if I am not lucid every night, that doesn't mean I couldn't go there again or that my experience wasn't real because I don't experience it every night. This relates to Karen saying it is important to remember the moment we Knew. It is. Later doubt shouldn't overshadow the truth of the moment of that Knowingness. Let those winds blow on your skin, and know that even that breath has The Name inside of it :) Much love, Samu Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2502 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion Good Morning All, I may have made a wrong turn here, but here goes, if Jesus had jumped from the top of the temple, would that have been similar, to the incident in Numbers 20:7-12, where Moses fulfilled the orders of God as far as the end result, but the manner in which he performed through God the miracle of getting water out of a rock, but God was angered by the slip enough to keep Moses from entering the Land of Milk and Honey. He was allowed to see the new land, however. Would you say that God was still the stern Old Testament God before Jesus really got started on his Father's work, before God saw that humans were still capable of Redemption by the application of Love, complete unconditional Love, instead of the "I want things this way, and if you don't..." It seems in the case of Moses, that he was allowed to continue his work but was not allowed the ultimate reward of his job. Is this similar to the situation of Jesus? Maybe Jesus would have lost his Gift and became a regular kind of minister, or even a wacko, if he told his stories. God has eternities in which to work. ((((Love and Light))) (((((::Laughter and Joy::))))) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer." "Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem." Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2503 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion kcsjrt writes: "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer. Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem." My first thought is that God cannot break his own word, unlike humans can. If I can I am going to be at your house at 8:00, and I'm not there until 10:00, have I broken my word? If I say I will pay your debts for you, and I don't, have I broken my word? Even if I say I ran out of money before I got all your debts paid, excusable, but didn't I just break my word? My feeling is that were God to break his Word he would cease to exist, and so would we. BUT I do believe God can speak His Word AGAIN and create a new situation. Jesus was subject to the same laws of physical existence that John, you and I are. The sun shines on all, not just on one and not others. Just as John told Joseph that he couldn't break laws, physical or cosmic, neither could Jesus, or they would both fall from the position they were (are) in. So then when John teleported Joseph and himself to the Eastern country that says to me that that act is not breaking any laws, so we should all be able to do that. LeLona Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2504 From: Karen Surface Subject: Re: Trusting the Silent Voice JJ wrote: " As I reflected on my mistake I said an inner prayer to God and told Him that I would follow the next message I received even if the time was inconvenient. The Powers that Be must have heard my silent words for something up there decided to put me to the test. This is silly, I thought. There is no light on in the house, my friend is obviously in bed and there's no logical reason why this can't wait until in the morning. I started to turn around when that nagging inner voice came back and said "knock on the door." "I felt kind of foolish as I blurted out, "I just had a feeling about you." "As I left her place I considered that it seemed that I had made a fool of myself, but at least I obeyed and started to head back home. Then the inner voice came again, "You are not done, there is still danger." Ain't it funny that the mere thought of feeling foolish is enough to keep us out of the Path of Light and disregard the Work we asked for the opportunity to do? (Love and Light) (::Laughter and Joy::) What else is there? Karen ICQ26771119 Post No. keys-l: /1999-02/2505 From: Lelona Hodges Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion I want to further add on keeping one's word, as God keeps his. When I give my word to someone I do so with full conviction behind it. Things fall into place around me keeping my word. No doubt about it. LeLona: "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer." "Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem." My first thought is that God cannot break his own word, unlike humans can. Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-14/2506 From: Glenys Lowery Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion J J Dewey wrote: "God promised that the Messiah would be protected by angels. Therefore, it would seem that there is no way that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself from the temple. It appears he could have put God in a corner because of His Word just as Moses did (as we discussed in a previous post)." "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer." The scripture that the devil quoted came from Psalm 91 and talks about God's protection of one who puts his trust in Him. It says in v.14, "Because he has loved Me therefore I will deliver him..." Now there is no doubt that Jesus loved God but I think that if he had 'tested' God by jumping off the cliff he would have been killed (unless, as I said earlier, he was saved by an act of grace). Unlike a lot of people, I don't believe God's promises are unconditional (and even the Psalm the devil quotes sets conditions). I think that we have to meet God halfway by listening to him through our inner voice and carrying out His will. The bible says that even Jesus had to learn obedience through his suffering. We are no different. We need to obey God, i.e. yield our little will to His to qualify for the promises. The more we follow His ways, the more His promises come into effect. Slow release :-)) They're my first thoughts on it but what do I know at 6:30am in the morning when I'm still comatose. Where's that coffee? I need a shot of maya! Love Glenys PS Thanks Samu., for your kind comments. I promise that if you were inside my head you would change your views about it being clear thinking - especially pre-coffee :) +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Of those who say nothing, few are silent. - Thomas Neiel Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2507 From: Diane Linen Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion J J Dewey wrote: "John, The FOLKS idea is a very good one. My feeling on a current name is this. Whatever evolves among the group is what we should do. However, this group is preparation for other organizations that will have predetermined names." "Karen, your reminder to be aware of the last message we have received cannot be repeated too often. If we all follow that advice much illusion will be revealed." "Glenys and Rob came close to the illusion by stating that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself off the temple. "The answer to the following question will reveal the illusion that even made the Son of God think twice. "God promised that the Messiah would be protected by angels. Therefore, it would seem that there is no way that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself from the temple. It appears he could have put God in a corner because of His Word just as Moses did (as we discussed in a previous post)." "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer." "Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem." How would throwing himself from the temple "prove" that God would keep his word of protecting him? Even if he were not the Son of God, this would be a foolish thing to do. Jesus was no fool. His physical body was subject to harm as are ours or he could not have died on the cross. This reminds me of the man who was drowning in a flood and asks God to save him. About 3 times he is offered a chance to be rescued but the man is waiting for God to "save" him. In the end the man drowns and asks God why didn't he save him, God answers that he WAS given 3 opportunities to be saved but the man refused each time. Just because we don't recognize the opportunities that God offers us doesn't mean He doesn't listen and answer us. Diane Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2508 From: LeLona Hodges Subject: Sylvia, bad, bad JJ, your friend Sylvia, is either hard to please, or so sensitive to doing wrong that she'd even think of killing herself after committing adultery the night before. Maybe it was so BAD that she thought of killing herself.......(or is that possible? HA!) Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2509 From: Sanna Hanskala Subject: Re: off-topic "fantasy" "Sanna wrote: "There's absolutely nothing I disagree with ;) However, my signature is kinda "aimed" for "ordinary" people to whom fantasy DOES mean "not real" and who've never heard of any astral planes. To a degree I include myself into that group. Excluding dreams, I haven't had any direct experience of the astral plane." "But Sanna, where do those beautiful paintings and drawings of yours come from then? :)" I have no clue. :) And my signature.... well, it was never meant to be anything but a little "hint" that whatever we now see is possible only in some fantasy world (imagination) could as well be very real at some point. Sanna "If anybody has a better word to replace "fantasy", I'm all ears." "Well, I think the only difference between fantasy and what's real is how long it takes for those imaginative thoughts to manifest so that we can perceive them, using our 'normal' 5 senses or the 6th one :)" Thanks, brother (umm sister), that's the meaning of my signature ;) ~ Sanna 'Fantasy' as a word refers to something that doesn't exist, but it doesn't mean that what we now perceive as fantasy can't be real Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2510 From: Tracey Hobson Subject: Regarding Paying Attention Hi FOLKS (I really dig that, John!), If you have been paying attention, I'll bet you wonder if I have been doing the same. Well, for a reasonably bright girl, I can be an incredibly slow learner, which is neither good nor bad - it just IS. So I have re-read several postings, and found this in blessed Glenys's post on maya, glamour and illusion, entitled Re: The Three Obstacles (in the archives under 1999-00). And there it is: "The remedy for illusion is intuition." Duh! Thanks for your patience with me, one and all. :) Gettin' it, slow but sure, Tracey Post No. keys-l: /1999-01-13/2511 From: Samu Karlsson Subject: Re: Unraveling Illusion Diane writes: "The answer to the following question will reveal the illusion that even made the Son of God think twice." "God promised that the Messiah would be protected by angels. Therefore, it would seem that there is no way that Jesus could have been killed if he had thrown himself from the temple. It appears he could have put God in a corner because of His Word just as Moses did (as we discussed in a previous post)." "The Question: Would God have broken His word if He would have not saved Jesus if he had jumped from the temple? Explain your answer." "Hint: The answer seems to be yes, but things are not always as they seem." "How would throwing himself from the temple "prove" that God would keep his word of protecting him? Even if he were not the Son of God, this would be a foolish thing to do. Jesus was no fool. His physical body was subject to harm as are ours or he could not have died on the cross." "This reminds me of the man who was drowning in a flood and asks God to save him. About 3 times he is offered a chance to be rescued but the man is waiting for God to "save" him. In the end the man drowns and asks God why didn't he save him, God answers that he WAS given 3 opportunities to be saved but the man refused each time. Just because we don't recognize t