Keys Writings 2014, Part 14

This entry is part 17 of 33 in the series 2014

July 23, 2014

The Bible – Fact or Fiction?

About time I give out another question or two. The group seems to like this John type of method as we usually get some pretty good responses.

Stephen has drawn some attention to some of Allan’s teachings who claims to be a reincarnation of James, the brother of Jesus. Let us examine a few of his teachings.

One of his core teachings is that the scriptures are not literally true but written as allegories with hidden symbolic messages that will be understood by the enlightened.

This is not a new teaching as many people think the Bible is not history but stories of fiction designed to present teachings of some kind. Some see the scriptures as presenting simple things while others see deep hidden meanings.

If the scriptures are truly fiction this means that whoever wrote them created a lie for, unlike Jesus presenting parables, and me The Immortal series, they have been presented as true history and in most cases the writers would have known that the narrative wasn’t true.

Questions:

(1) Does this make sense to you?

(2) Would a truly enlightened teacher use such deception?

(3) Are there hidden meanings in the scriptures?

(4) Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

***

Keith:

I find it hard to believe Allen is stating the Bible is completely allegorical with no basis in history. Is this really his contention?

JJ

Sometimes he talks about it as if it is pure allegory, but then other times he acknowledges that there is some history thrown in. He seems to think all the Old Testament is allegory and few if any of the characters are real. He does acknowledge that Jesus, Paul, James and some of the characters of the New Testament are real but most or all of the miracles are allegory, but doesn’t seem to tell us what the meaning of the allegory is. He seems to take most of the Gospel of Thomas pretty literally though.

***

Welcome to the forum Allan. I have been gone most of the day so haven’t been able to respond until now.

Since I hadn’t heard from Stephen for a while so I thought maybe the project was shelved, but I did want to cover this subject of the Bible a being allegory. It wouldn’t have been my first choice in the Stephen’s project, but here we are so we’ll go with it.

The question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

To this you say that you believe you have presented a case for this. The trouble is that your post mainly deals with parables which are not presented as historical fact. Most Bible students realize that the parables have a surface meaning and then a deeper meaning as you teach. I have said a number of times that many ancient Jewish teachers believed that the scriptures have three levels of meanings, called the body, soul and spirit. Some even give as many as seven meanings to them.

But the point is that parables are not a part of the answer to the question because a parable is a fiction story that obviously presents a teaching of some kind. A parable is not presented as historical fact.

On the other hand, many of the scriptures that are not parables are presented as historical fact such as Jesus walking on water, raising Lazarus from the dead, the Resurrection, the Pentecost and many more things. Are you saying the writers of these things lied and presented fiction as historical fact to teach some type of truth?

And what truth was presented in any of this that was not obvious to begin with? I do not see how you have presented am example.

You say that you and Jesus wrote the original gospels. Did you devise the miracles as fiction to be presented as truth? And for what purpose? To teach deeper meaning you say? What is the deeper meaning that could have not been conveyed in an honest parable?

 

July 24, 2014

Re: [Keysters] The Bible – Fact or Fiction?

It looks my reply disappeared into the ethers. Here it is again.

Again, the question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

The closest attempt I can see to answer this by Allan is:

“Solomon did not have 700 wives and 300 concubines — yet, these numbers in conjunction with the name Solomon convey important meaning to the seeker/disciple.”

Yes, you say there is some important meaning here but do not say what that important meaning is.

It is important to point out that any myth from the Old Testament presented to us in the scriptures is a much different animal than a fabricated or altered account of known recent history.

Let me explain.

Those who compiled the stories of the Old Testament gathered together stories that had been passed down by word of mouth for many centuries. They did not know if all the stories were literally true, but this was the best information they had. In other words, the compilers did not write fictional accounts and create myth, hut compiled the stories from the best sources they had.

Because various accounts were passed by word of mouth for centuries a certain amount of corruption was incorporated as well as a number of stories that may have been pure fiction.

The compilers did not know what was true and what was fiction so they just put together the best of what they had available.

I cannot fault them for this because they did not write the stories themselves. All civilizations had to do this with their stories passed down by word of mouth and preserving them to the best of the compiler’s ability did not involve intentional deception.

On the other hand, after we learned to write and keep a recorded history the records were kept much closer to real time and the authors knew whether they were writing about events that were true or creating fabrications.

Thus the New Testament is much different from the Old, as when Jesus showed up followers had full ability to record events in writing during or shortly after his ministry. The writers did not have to rely on legends a thousand years old or more.

Scholars say the Gospel of Mark was written within 30 years of the crucifixion. Jesus would have been as fresh in his mind as is President Reagan in ours. It would be pretty difficult for me to convince anyone that Reagan walked on water or changed water into wine, but if I could it would indeed be a deception, even if I thought I was conveying a great truth in the account.

Writing a stated fiction book conveying Reagan as a miracle worker would be one thing and fairly harmless, but creating one that is presented as true is quite another and would be a great deception.

Jesus said that Satan was a liar from the beginning and we certainly do not want to emulate his approach.

If any of the Bible writers created fabricated stories about Jesus and presented them to the world as true then they were in grave error, for a lie always gives the powers of darkness additional power to accomplish their ends. Deceptions causes a cloud to develop over the soul. The greatest key to liberation is truth. This includes not only higher higher metaphysical truth but truth as things really happen in history. Those who distort history, whether it be for good or bad intent, will create harm for future generations and karma for themselves.

So I ask again:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

I would say that most of the stories from the Old Testament would not count here as the compilers did not know for sure what was true and what was fiction. Its creation was not an intentional deception.

The compilers of the early New Testament knew the historical truth and generally knew if what they were writing was historically true. So what myth was knowingly placed in the New Testament teaches us any significant truth and what is that truth?

***

Here is a response I made to a member of Allan’s forum.

Peter M.

You are still looking at this through a very linear male pattern and with a literal bias toward scripture.

JJ

It sounds like you are trying to put me in a box as if I am some type of fundamentalist. I find a lot of symbolism in the Bible and have written volumes on it. I wrote a whole book explaining he symbolic meaning of the Book of Revelation. I have no problem in finding symbolic meaning in the scriptures or any other writing.

And yes, I realize the Gospel of Mark was probably based on an earlier version as most orthodox scholars also believe. Allan quotes from the Gospel of the Nazirenes which some believe to be an earlier version, but this presents the miracles as true history, including the resurrection.

Peter;

The reason you do not understand the story of Solomon is because you are still trying to read it as some kind of historical record handed down by word of mouth without once understanding that there were a whole group of mystics living during that time period who wrote it down for a specific purpose that was not to document history.

JJ

And why do you think I do not understand the story of Solomon when I have not even given you my interpretation? You need to argue with what I say, not with what I do not say.

And what do you think that “specific purpose” was? And what was the real meaning of the 300 wives and 700 concubines?

Peter:

In the higher spiritual realm where our souls reside, the history of human beings is pretty much a joke.

JJ

And you think this because? It sounds like you are saying that the things which are true are a joke, but deceptive presentations, where the truth is altered is much better.

You may be surprised to learn after death that accurate records are kept in the higher realms of not only the true history of humanity, but of all creation.

True history has more true usable symbolism in it than a concocted and altered history, even if the writers were clever and had good intent. Good intent does not create the communication of true principles whereas real truth pieced together does.

Peter:

What is important is the development of the soul and soul does not speak in our language. We have to learn the language of the soul and in order for the most basic concepts to be past down from one generation to the next it has to be written in allegory using context clues that would reawaken within true seekers the clues to the language of the soul by applying the “Key of Knowledge” to each passage.

JJ

I am all for teaching in allegory as I have done it many times but little can be gained writing something that is not true (with some hidden meaning included) and then presenting it to the world as true history when it is not. If it is accepted as true, as the New Testament is by most, then, readers will not be looking for the hidden meaning. The few that do will rarely agree with what that hidden meaning is. If Allan is the only one who understands the hidden meaning what then was accomplished by the fictional presentation, other than the masses accepting a thing that is not true?

As it is, there are many parables presented by Jesus with no deception involved at all. Everyone understood that they were not literally true and they had an allegorical meaning. Jesus also clearly explained that they had a higher meaning than the obvious. I notice that Allan uses the parables a lot in teaching but rarely uses the historical narrative which he says is also supposed to contain mysteries in allegory.

Peter:

…because we are not giving you the answer you want and you won’t stop until we agree with you.

JJ

That is not the problem. The problem is that I have not yet received an answer.

Peter:

Well I hate to break it to you…it has been asked and answered by Allan through his soul directly to you and you just don’t want to accept it.

JJ

Then could you tell me in a sentence or two what the answer was?

Again, here was the question:

Do you know of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

 

July 25, 2014

The Bible Fact or Fiction Continued

Allan:

You have an entirely different vision and understanding of scriptures than I do. What you seem to portray are accounts — i.e., historical, folklore, or even myths — that are passed down and recorded in the scriptures.

JJ

You seem to incorrectly see me as someone with a fundamentalist view. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not see all the scriptures a literal historical truth though some may be. They were written by imperfect people and then most of them have been altered since originally written. I read the scriptures like I read everything else – by the light of the soul. If it speaks to the inner spirit I accept it and if not then I do not.

A quotation attributed to me is:

One with soul contact can find more truth from the National Enquirer than one who is in illusion can find in the Bible

Allan

In contradistinction to this view which you share with those in the linear-intellectual community, my perception is that every word and aspect of the scriptures is a conscious portrayal of body, mind and spirit embodied in a road-map of the Laws and Forces of Mind and Being.

JJ

I’m surprised you would think that “every word” is part of a roadmap when you teach that the scriptures we have today are corrupted. There are also a lot of mistranslations from the earliest Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.

But I agree that the scriptures in general present a roadmap to higher truth if one interprets them by the Spirit.

Allan:

While the authors of the scriptures may begin with a commonly held belief or story out of man’s historical past, every word of what they compose has been reformed into a spiritual account that would be better portrayed as a work of spiritual art. Every name that is used in the scriptures has a meaning — as does every name, place and thing — and these names and quasi-historical events are brought together in the creation of a masterpiece that portrays the blueprint and workings of the mind — and its interaction with spirit and flesh.

JJ

I probably do not see them as infallible as you seem to describe, but, yes, there is a lot of meaning there to be discovered. If you read my writings you’ll see that I have presented a lot of symbolic and inner meaning from the scriptures, including many names.

Allan

Every word of the scriptures — both Old and New Testaments — possess a sacred meaning that is not at all apparent to the vast majority of readers. And the true meaning can only be revealed to the mind of the reader by one’s soul-self or ultimately, the indwelling Logos/Son of God.

JJ

If one is creative he can come up with some type of symbolic meaning from any scripture, but some are much closer to the words of spirit than others. In fact some are quite ordinary and I notice that most of the symbolic meaning you mention from the scriptures are the parables and very little in connection with events. I agree with your emphasis and believe the parables of Jesus are vey rich with meaning compared to some other scriptures and they are presented honestly as fictional stories that teach.

Allan:

Moreover, the true meaning is simply beyond the organic limitations of man to comprehend — and this higher meaning of body, mind and spirit must be revealed to the seeker/disciple from inner spiritual sources that are not in any manner of the thinking of this world. And this is why the reader is instructed not to attempt to interpret the scriptures with preconceived (human) ideas — or, to take an interpretation from without, and attempt to apply this to the scriptures.

JJ

I’ve read a lot of your interpretation of the scriptures and it certainly appears that you are using your organic self to the highest of your rational ability to interpret them just as do many other sincere teachers. Some of your interpretations are more linear and literal than mine and others do use some good symbology.

A student cannot rely on the interpretation of another just because he claims a high contact but must verify all things for himself through the Inner God.

Allan:

With respect to you position that the scriptures are historical accounts, nothing could be further from the truth.

JJ

I think we both agree that the scriptures contain some true history but are not 100% accurate.

Allan

The authors of the scriptures therefore had no motivation to record Cave shadow-images — when the objective was to escape the illusions of this world and open the mind up to the higher reality of mind and spirit — bringing about the next stage of soul-birth that permits the seeker/disciple of Light to become their True Self.

JJ

It sounds like you are saying that the writers of the scriptures are attempting to escape illusion by presenting more illusion. This makes no sense.

In other words, to present truths to the world to enable seekers to escape illusion they create fictional, or illusionary history, and present it as true history.

Allan

You see the scriptures from an entirely different perspective than I do. I would never use such words as fabrications, myths or deceptions to portray the scriptures.

JJ

If a story is not true and yet presented as if it is true then what is it if it is not a deception? Why are you so reluctant to call a spade a spade? If Jesus did not walk on water, and the writer knew this, yet presented the story as being true then this was a lie plain and simple and such a writer will have to answer for his act.

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” Matt 12:36-37

Allan

You see the scriptures as historical or quasi-historical accounts — whereas, I see the scriptures as patterns and blueprints of mind impressed into accounts that reveal the Laws and Forces of Consciousness to those who are able to perceive beyond the garb of the cloak of the written word. Our perception of the scriptures therefore has nothing in common.

JJ

We have more in common than you acknowledge.

(1) We both see the scriptures as part allegory and part true history. We only differ in degree.

(2) We both believe that they need to be interpreted through the light of the inner Christ or soul.

(3) We both believe they have a lot of inner meaning not apparent to the average student.

(4) We both believe they have suffered from corruption.

(5) We both see a lot of meaning in the parables not obvious to Bible students.

The main point where we differ is this.

You think the writers did a good thing in fabricating history and presenting it as truth because they placed a lot of hidden truth in them.

I, on the other hand, believe in the simple truth that honesty is the best policy and we cannot obtain liberation from the physical plane by using deceptive means. We trust God and His spirit which dwells in us because we know that whatever is revealed is true and not just something fabricated to teach us a lesson.

You have covered a lot of material (and I agree with a lot of it) but still have not answered my question.

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

It would only take a paragraph or two to answer this.

***

The Value of History

Shawn:

I would ask this question, what do I gain if it is a history? Does it advance you spiritually at all?

JJ

That is like asking if truth advances us spiritually. Everything of which we can write or speak is either truth or error. Why would anyone on the Path choose error? Every piece of truth is a piece of the puzzle of the whole and when error or deception is chosen the individual is then faced with a missing piece.

“But we live in a world of illusion so it matters not how the illusion is presented because it is still illusion.” says one.

Well, a dream is even more illusionary than waking life but what happened in the dream is still a real experience with symbolic meaning. If my wife asks what I dreamed of last light and I relate a total lie because it sounds good then that is a sin against the light of the soul. It is a sin against the light to lie about a dream, about events that happen in our normal waking state or about any experience in our or out of the worlds of illusion. A deception blacks out a piece of the picture of the whole truth and pulls the deceiver further in to illusion.

Allan, in his actual writings, seems to support the idea of presenting true history. He considers it true history that he was the brother of Jesus in a past life and presents this as true history many times in his writings.

Many times he attempts to accurately quote the true (not the untrue) writings of the church fathers to support what he sees as truth.

Then he attempts to relate the true history of how the scriptures were corrupted and the true disciples were persecuted.

He emphasizes the importance of finding the true historical scriptures as they reveal more pure truth than the distorted ones.

It indeed appears that the truth of history is very important to Allan in the presentation of many of his writings.

Almost daily in your forum is the presentation of historical facts giving it meaning. Peter just gave some historical information today also mentioned previously by Allan. Let me quote:

“What Allan spoke of happened within the Ebionite communities within the gathering of the elders. Each community was roughly around 50 or so to keep the attention down and therefore have less focus on them. Within each community were elders or those whose souls were more spiritually advanced in that they could perceive spiritual concepts from multiple perspectives, but there were some who were slightly less advanced who could see things from only a select few perspectives. Now in their gatherings when someone spoke the other elders would listen and understood that while they might have a differing perspective on a subject they also understood that the individual speaking was speaking from their perspective at the level they were at. It was understanding that each person was on a different rung of Jacob’s ladder. They were free to speak openly and without judgment but there was as Beth mentioned discernment.”

I didn’t see anyone criticizing Peter for bring up useless true history.

Shawn:

Looking at it as a history and literally you may lead a slightly less selfish life. You may help the needy and you may sing songs on Sunday. What would it benefit you if Jesus turned water into wine, walked on water, was raised to to the heavens to be tempted by Satan to rule all the earthly kingdoms? It doesn’t benefit you at all.

JJ

Totally untrue. If Jesus really turned water into wine then this tells me that this is something I can also learn to do. If he didn’t really do it and this power has never been demonstrated then maybe such a power is beyond our abilities.

They used to think the four-minute mile was impossible but when this milestone was surpassed, and this true event circulated, the truth was out there that this feat could be done, and after this many others accomplished the same thing.

The truth of the possibilities of human ability is of extreme importance to know.

On the other hand, let us take an apparent inconsequential true event. Let us say I got up at 8 AM and told a friend that I got up at 7 AM knowing that this was not true. No harm done, right? Because it makes no difference to the friend what time I get up.

Wrong.

The truth makes a difference to the soul and when we knowingly replace truth with error we sin against the light whether that deception has small or large consequences. And it matters not whether the deception seems to be for the other persons own good. Every unfaithful spouse who lies to his partner does so to avoid hurting him or her. Does this effort to benefit his partner justify the lie?

No, it does not.

These are lessons that children rightfully learn in Sunday School. It is strange indeed that I need to repeat them here on a forum seeking higher truth. The most basic of all truth is truth itself.

Shawn:

Knowing Jesus/Yeshua rode on top of a donkey into Jerusalem on top of palm leaves through a certain gate of the city does nothing for me. However, the allegory presented in that portion of text is full of information. The animal and mineral/vegetable kingdom being domesticated/submissive to the Jesus speaks volumes.

JJ

So by extension, when we see the Lone Ranger riding his horse we are witnessing the great truth of “the animal and mineral/vegetable kingdom being domesticated/submissive” to the rider?

Give me a break. I got to give you credit for a good imagination here though.

Shawn:

When Jesus healed the blind man, what did this do from a historical context? He healed one blind man. He had done many miracles before so why was this one included if it was historically true?

JJ

Maybe because it was historically true. Why would you think otherwise? Because someone told you so?

Shawn:

If it is an allegory we can look past the literal

JJ

A seeker can always look past the literal whether the story be truth or fiction.

Shawn

Like your question, you demand an answer yet could you handle the unveiled truth? Would it do more harm than good?

JJ

Test me out and see if I can handle it. For some odd reason no one has answered my very simple question.

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

You mentioned Jesus riding the donkey but did not give me a clue as to how the information you gathered was useful and furthermore how do you know the incident did not really happen?

***

Answer to Beth

Beth:

Actually I did not say “historical truth” .. I said “as originally written are truth”….you added the word historical.

JJ

But if you label historical events, such as in the Bible as true, then one would naturally assume that you are referring to the history as well as any inner meaning.

For instance, if you say the scripture about Jesus walking on water is true then one naturally assumes you think Jesus walked on water.

Peter talked about the history of the Ebonites and I assume he is talking about more than allegory.

Beth:

I have recently read some of your articles and find interesting things there as well as some things I do not see the same way… and that is OK. Wasn’t the goal of the cross pollination between the forums to share your perspective with us and vice versa? If so, then it may be more fruitful if you tell us more about your thoughts instead of critiquing Allan’s writings or demanding we answer your specific questions as if it is some sort of test.

JJ

Good point. I didn’t plan on starting out on this subject as I knew it would press some buttons. Here is how this evolved.

Stephen came up with this idea of cross posting and Allan didn’t seem that interested, but Stephen thought he could convince him. Some time had passed and I thought the idea was shelved. In the meantime I thought that discussing his idea of the scriptures not being true history would be of interest to the Keys group so I asked some questions for consideration.

Immediately after that post Allan responded, apparently thinking this was my first post in Stephens plan. After the discussion was placed in effect I figured the best thing to do was to go with it.

If this accident had not occurred I would have started off with some type of teaching that would have been more agreeable to the your group.

Maybe the next subject attempted will be more harmonious to both groups

By the way, I pick up a positive vibe from you as a sincere and kind person. One more thing Allan and I have in common is the fortune of having good companions.

***

Useful Knowledge

Here is another response I gave to Allan’s group.

Pure Practice (Gary):

I get the feeling you are playing a version of 20 questions. That is you have an answer, from your perspective, that you believe is valid to your OWN question:

Can you give me an example of any useful knowledge anyone has derived from fiction presented as historical fact?

If you do, why not just share it and let it be examined?

JJ

There are many possible answers to this question as it is not complicated at all.

Allan tells us that most of the history as presented in the New Testament is fiction, as it was not written with any consideration of historical fact but to convey inner meaning to the more evolved seekers. The outer presentation was fiction presented as true to pacify the unwashed masses.

In other words, the writers knowingly fabricated accounts and presented the material as being something that literally happened, or as true history.

There are hundreds of examples that could be drawn from the New Testament if Allan is correct. There are also hundreds of false teachers out there who are presenting false accounts as if they are true in an attempt to teach truth and gain followers.

In all my experience I have not found much light that pointed me to new knowledge among any writings where the author presented the teachings or history to be true when he knew it was not.

When I first asked this question it was just to my group, but now it has been expanded to this group. I am wondering if anyone has actually gleamed any significant knowledge that is not already readily available from anything in the New Testament or other works where the writers presented fictionalized accounts as being true.

My belief is that there could not be a lot of light hidden in such deception.

Dina

Even if every miracle recorded in the Gospels were literally true, exactly as written, how would “knowing” that such and such a thing happened transform YOU into Messiah/Christ?

JJ

It wouldn’t, and I do not know of anyone who thinks that it would. On the other hand, presenting fiction as being a true account or falling for the deception would hinder one from manifesting Christ.

 

July 26, 2014

Judgment

I posted this on Allan’s forum:

Allan writes:

If you are going to post on their forum, be respectful and practice humbleness. It is clear that they are at a different level than the members of this forum — and we can’t be of assistance to them if we offend them.

JJ

Three or four times now you have insinuated that the Keys members are of a lower level than your group. So far I have let this slide but now I see you are repeating this I must stand up for my students who I would favorably compare to any others on the internet.

Of course, you must keep in mind that there are several who have joined and are moderated who see me as an enemy and are not students. Through limited moderation I seek to allow as many diverse opinions on the forum as possible.

Both your forum and mine have members who are at different grades of spiritual evolution, but one of the greatest mistakes one can make is assuming that one has a higher seat at the table than is earned, and even if one thinks this, he should take the lower seat and let his actual words and works speak for themselves.

Instead of judging the other group to be inferior I think we should be open to the possibilities that there are some significant lights in both groups.

You have dealt with Stephen and I’m sure you will agree that he is a true seeker, seeking to manifest the Christ within. There are quite a few others like him on the keys.

***

Rick:

Stating, up front, that a book, broadcast or movie is fiction is no guarantee that it will be seen as such.

JJ

That is indeed true but that misses my point which is this. If a person produces a work of fiction with the intent of deceptively presenting it as truth then the one with deception as his motive would be working on restricted light and anything he produces would be of low value. True, some may get something out of it, but nothing like Eternal words delivered by one dedicated to pure truth.

***

Kindred Soul

Larry W says:

Object lesson: you don’t enhance rights by taking them away. Even so you do not enhance truth by taking it away.

JJ

Great statement.

Normally Larry is a harmless fuzzball, full of love and kindness, but this idea presented that the scriptures are based on intentional historical untruths has really riled him up.

Note to Larry, who is not moderated.

I agree with you that it would be an outrageous violation of the principle of truth if Bible writers fabricated history in an attempt to teach truth acceptable to the masses, but I see no evidence that Allan is trying to be deceptive or lies in his current life.

We have an opportunity to befriend another group and share with them as an experiment. Let us not stop it before it gets a good start by calling anyone a liar – for that is pretty strong language.

If there is something that you see that is not true identify it and then explain why it is not true without using any name calling. Let us demonstrate the quality of this group by being as civil as possible.

 

July 27, 2014

Questions from Flo

Here are some answers to Flo, Allan’s wife. I was thinking that Beth was his wife, but i guess it is Flo.

Flo:

I write to you about a good man, a man with integrity, the man I have been married to for almost forty years…

JJ

I’m sure he is a good man. I have never said otherwise.

Flo

You implied on your forum that you rather not converse in a confrontational manner… I think you called it in the “manner of John”…

JJ

I do not mind confrontation when it is called for. The “manner of John” has nothing to do with confrontation but refers to teaching and learning by asking questions as related in my Immortal books. This method is not confrontational, but provokes thought.. This whole exchange began when I asked a couple questions to my group and happened to get posted over here.

Flo

Yet you portray Allan as someone that does not believe in the Bible???

JJ

This I have not done. I have said that we both see the Bible as part true and part myth, but differ in degree and in the intent of the writers.

Flo

Allan’s position is the Bible (except for the Epistles) and all Scripture is truth with a three-fold meaning. Allan would never say that any Scripture is fabricated, a lie, untrue, a myth, a deception, fiction, and made up.

JJ

It seems to be you are is not representing Allan’s belief’s correctly. Does he or does he not believe that the Bible writers made up some of the history that is in the Bible? Does he believe that Jesus fed the 5000 with fishes and bread? Does he believe that Jesus walked on water, got tax money from a fish and other miracles as written? He has pretty much said in black and white that many of these things did not happen but were placed there by the writers of scripture and contain symbolism for teaching.

He just said today that when the names like Peter James and John are mentioned in the gospels that they do not really refer to them but we need to see the meaning behind the names instead. In other words the accounts of such men are made up, fabricated or fiction even though they may contain hidden meaning.

So when the group here says the Bible is true or truth they are not referring to all of it, but parts of it. If the Bible writers knew Jesus did not walk on water yet say he did with no caveat of it being a parable then obviously that part presented as history was not history and was fabricated, fictionalized, made up or whatever you want to call it. Because history is seen to be made up for a benevolent purpose the group seems gun-shy about calling it what it is. If a thing is said to have happened when the writer knows it has not then that is a know untruth. I do not know any other way to honestly say it. Sorry.

I do not understand why you would be upset at me restating what Allan has already said.

Flo:

Now, I totally respect the fact that you are taught by the Spirit within… why do you not respect that Allan also was taught from the Spirit within him?

JJ

I do. I think he has received some good things and doing a good work, but that doesn’t mean I automatically agree with everything he says, just as he does not agree with everything I say.

Flo

Your words are more than confrontational… They are insulting, and you are confronting Allan in a negative way. Why???

JJ

I am trying to be as civil as possible. Can you give me an example of something negative I’ve said that bothers you? Most of my writing here has been answering questions and I am trying not to offend anyone.

Flo:

why do you feel it necessary to put a negative twist on Allan’s words???

JJ

I have tried to represent Allan’s views as he has presented them. If I present anything incorrectly just let me know.

Flo:

Every scripture is written with a three-fold…Body, Mind, and Spirit

JJ

I agree and have taught this many times myself, even before Allan started teaching on the internet.

Flo:

Why not state what you have been taught by Spirit and likewise with Allan and leave out the insults? Like it or not, Spirit will touch others, each according to their condition.

JJ

I do not believe I have insulted anyone here. If I have I apologize. I believe in keeping all discussions on a friendly nature.

As I said earlier this first topic here occurred by accident and it has generated a lot of questions to which many seen to want answers. I’ll try and introduce a less controversial topic next time.

Flo:

I thought Allan was an invited guest to JJ’s forum, as he was invited to ours! Does insults rally his base? For what purpose does JJ be so uninviting? He is guiding his forum members into being not only unloving, but being nasty.

JJ

Again I do not see how I have been nasty or uninviting. All of Allan’s posts on the Keys forum is welcome by me.

One guy sent Allan a nasty email but he is not a student and is just as nasty toward me and one member overreacted. I have cautioned the group to be civil and if they go too far off base I will take action. I try to give the group as much latitude as possible.

Meanwhile I hope you will realize that I am attempting to respond to your husband according to his stated beliefs.

***

Gary’s Question

Gary asks:

So if you know of “many possible answers”, why not share a few?

He is referring to this question I have asked many times and still waiting for an answer.

Tell us (those who read this) a fabricated story presented as true that has taught you a significant truth.

I personally have not gotten much truth from fabricated stories, but if one reads through the eyes of the soul he could get some benefit from the words of the devil himself.

To answer your question I will put myself in the thinking mode of a good group member here. As I understand it Allan believes that Jesus did not really walk on water but the story was created, fabricated, fictionalized, or whatever you want to call it, for the purpose of conveying a truth.

If a member here answered my question using this example he could have said.

“Yes, I believe the walking on water thing was fiction but water is a symbol of the emotions and air is a symbol of mind. The idea of walking on water conveys the idea that we need to master our emotions so we can breath the clean air of pure reason undisturbed by negativity.”

You overlook the reason I asked the question to begin with. I believe there is much more truth presented in true history than in fiction presented as true history.

So, I was curious to see if anyone could come up with a false event which has been presented as true and still get anything significant out of it.

I believe that there is good symbolic meaning in Jesus walking on water because he did actually walk on water, but there is no way to prove this one way or another.

Even in this the symbolism nothing new is taught that couldn’t be conveyed in simple words or a good parable – or fiction presented as fiction.

***

More Questions

Julio

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that since God is a God of Truth according to Deuteronomy 32:4 that the language that He speaks is Truth as it relates to what you hear from Him when you hear His Voice in your inner Kingdom?

JJ

Yes, that would be fair indeed and we should seek the inner voice.

Robert:

Allan has been trying to show that not only are the Scriptures allegory; but so too is all of life. So that would include the Lone Ranger too.

JJ

One can interpret anything allegorically, but most are inclined to enjoy fiction for fun rather than serious interpretation. Unlike regular fiction a parable is mentally put together to clarify some important truth.

Amos

Since you wrote about judgment, do you understand the difference between discerning and judging?

JJ

Yes.

Allan writes:

While there was an historical man named Peter, John and Jacob who they call James, when these names are used in the scriptures, the scriptures are not making reference to the historical person — but what the meaning of the name signifies within one’s own mind and being.

Then there must be a tremendous amount of meaning hidden in these names. Do you mind sharing what several of them mean and why you think the meaning is significant or useful?

Matt 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Matt 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

Matt 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;

Matt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Matt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Matt 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

Matt 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;

Matt 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;

Matt 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;

Matt 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Matt 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;

Matt 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;

Matt 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;

Matt 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;

Matt 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

***

Truth Be Told

Allan:

You continue to portray what I write as suggesting the scriptures are fiction, because you are attempting to repeat a lie in the hope that others will believe you.

JJ

You seem to be in extreme denial on this and I’m surprised no one from your own group has called you on it. This is evidence that they are relying too strongly on you as an external authority and not checking with the inner truth verified by the soul. The denial also explains why it takes you thousands of words to state what could be simply explained in a paragraph.

Your teaching of the truth of the Bible is extremely confusing and obscure to those who are not enamored with your claims to authority, so let us clear this up once and for all.

(1) Did the writers of the New Testament scripture intentionally write in people, events and history into them that did not occur as events in this physical reality?

(2) Remember we are not talking about allegorical truth here so answer this. Would such writings be fiction or non fiction, historically true or not true?

(3) Is the intentional presentation of information you know to be not true, as if it were true, a lie or not?

Please answer this in your own words without relying on outer authorities, or linking to a lengthy website, and try and be concise.

***

To Beth

Beth relating what she sees as new principles.

  • Holographic Pattern of Creation
  • Keys of Knowledge
  • Higher Soul Self and its Soul Images
  • Being of Light
  • Pre-Existent Soul
  • Predestination
  • Reincarnation
  • Living Biofeedback Organism
  • Octaves – Intervals and Twists
  • Consecrated Life – Good Ground
  • Do NO Harm
  • Scriptures – Language of the Soul
  • Tree of Life – 12 Spheres
  • Duality and Oneness
  • Divine Marriage
  • Gnosis – Truth Within
  • Entering the Kingdom

JJ

Teachings on most of these can be found in many new age sites and topics of conversation are not principles. Principles are the true language of the soul but first one must understand what a principle is.

Beth:

JJ, I agree with Flo that it seems you started this off by basically saying Allan is a liar

JJ

I have never called anyone in my life a liar and have not called Allan one. If someone says something that appears to not be true I will point out why the statement seems to not be true and allow for the person to explain himself.

Beth

and you called your “students” to answer 4 questions to prove or disprove Allan. Whether that was just intended for your forum or both forums is not important… it is what you set in motion in either case.

JJ

And what is the matter with a class taking a teaching, examining it in the light of day, and then reaching the best possible compulsion as to whether it is true? Allan has done this numerous times.

Beth:

It feels like the attacking/discrediting tone overall was triggered by your approach. It is you that must set a different tone, a cooperative environment where everyone can easily share their thoughts and questions without joining a battle of sorts or forced to declare allegiance. Does this make sense?

JJ

It takes two sides to create a battle

***

Allan, I understand what you are saying with crystal clarity as you have repeated the same simple teachings many many times. There is nothing complicated here except that you are making it so by refusing to speak in plain English and when you get in a situation that you can’t handle you just tell everyone that theanswer is too far above us to understand.

Do you realize how silly this sounds?

Me understanding you or your lofty thoughts us not the problem.

The problem is simple communication which you outright refuse to do on this issue.

Why don’t you take a stab at those three questions so we can once and for all clarify how you really view the scriptures so we can have a good starting point for a discussion that involves real truth.

If a guy says a thing is red at one time and yellow at another then this makes it difficult to discuss anything to do with the color.

You say the historical accounts of the scriptures did not happen on one occasion and then insist they are true on another. We need to have consistency in order to have an intelligent conversation.

JJ

***

Peter’s Question

Peter:

Before we can go further, do you think people learning from their inner Christ (soul-self) get the same message person to person?

JJ

If you are asking whether or not two will get the same message on the same subject without contradiction the answer is yes.

So, why does everyone who thinks they are in contact with the Inner Christ not agree? Several reasons.

(1) Many merely contact their emotional/astral body which turns many things upside down and takes them into illusion. High emotional contact can still feel quite Christlike to one who has not felt the real thing and lead him to illusion.

(2) One may make contact and then fail to accurately communicate that which was received and thus appear to be at odds with another who has received the same thing.

(3) There are yet others who think that anything they imagine that feels good to them comes from God.

***

Allan:

We want to see the New Age wisdom on the twelve (12) sphere Tree of Life. The Law of Octaves. The Divine Marriage. The New Age version of the Images generated by the soul-self . Also, their biblical understanding of the Key of Knowledge — and how to properly apply the scriptures by turning them within self. I really want the links that JJ is referencing, so I can read this New Age wisdom.

JJ

It might be a good start for you to explain some of these yourself. For instance I have not seen you explain “how to properly apply the scriptures by turning them within self. ” You have said that we need to do this, but haven’t seen you demonstrate it or show others the path to achieve this.

As for me, I have written on about every spiritual subject there is. You can start with this link:

http://www.freeread.com/archives/

***

Beth:

I have been reading several of JJ’s archived messages today and have found things that resonate right along with TheWay teachings… but it is like some force is fighting to derail this interaction. This runs deep… feels like a replay of a battle from a prior life. It is fascinating, amazing and exhausting all at the same time. Hmmm….

JJ

I commend you for being open minded enough to check out some of my writings. This is an important step. Before we even started this process I read about 150,000 words from Allan’s websites. This gave me a pretty good idea of where he is coming from – as I do not like to enter any enterprise such as this with false assumptions.

I said earlier that I received a good vibe from you but I seem to have been mistaken in thinking you were Allan’s wife.

I may not have come across as Mr. Nice Guy here (and Allan isn’t on our forum) but the Key to making progress on this enterprise is accurate communication. We have hit a very unnecessary snag in communication with this Bible history fiction thing. I’m not saying anyone is a liar, evil or a bad person but just think that a simple thing like what is fiction and what is not should be easy to see. If we cannot see the easy things together how then can we see the difficult ones?

Allan thinks I do not understand him, but I do. I am just attempting to get us to both say that red is red so we can identify the simple truth when red is seen on the horizon.

***

To Flo

Flo:

Scripture is written having a body, mind, and Spirit meaning to it. To which you said you agree. The words have a deeper meaning than that which are written…a Higher Truth on a three-fold level… Not a falsehood, untruth, lie, deception, fabrication, etc. but a Higher Truth.

JJ

But if it says that Jesus walked on water when he did not how can you with a straight face say there is is no untruth there??? Just because there is symbolic truth underneath does not mean that the outer is also true – if it is historically false.

I am amazed that this simple thing is so difficult for this group to see.

Flo

No One, is going to say the Bible is anything but Truth, so can you move on…

JJ

But Allan has said the historical part is not true. Strange approach you have here.

If we cannot resolve this through honest communication without claiming the other side doesn’t see the higher truth then this problem is likely to reoccur. But if the mindset here is to avoid questions and not answer them on this subject then we may have to move on to something else and hope for the best.

***

Beth:

I do NOT consider physical history to be fact…

JJ

It’s pretty difficult to have a logical discussion with a group that doesn’t believe facts like Kennedy was assassinated, that George Washington was our first president or that Obama is our historical president today.

This is a really odd belief system I am dealing with here that I have encountered in no other group and it has nothing to do with truths in the Bible, finding Christ within or spiritual progress. This hindrance of seeing reality just interferes with it.

***

To Shohn

Shohn:

Fishing around on the Internet for a quote from Origen, I found a web site which seems to use a similar line of reasoning as can be found in some of Allan’s writings:

“What man of sense will agree with the statement that the first, second and third days in which the evening is named and the morning, were without sun, moon and stars, and the first day without a heaven. What man is found such an idiot as to suppose that God planted trees in paradise in Eden, like a husbandman, and planted therein the tree of life, perceptible to the eyes and senses, which gave life to the eater thereof; and another tree which gave to the eater thereof a knowledge of good and evil? I believe that every man must hold these things for images, under which the hidden sense lies concealed” (Origen – Huet., Prigeniana, 167 Franck, p. 142).

The same blogger continue on to say: “Sometimes the untruths in scripture are so blatant that only a fool would believe the literal text of the scriptures”.

Source: https://lostchristianity.wordpress.com/tag/origen/

If what Origen writes is true, maybe only an … idiot … would think Jesus actually walked on water?

If I were to use a comparison to the modern time frame, what if you encountered someone who believed in Spiderman?

JJ

You and others seem to completely, absolutely miss the point of the problem here, It has nothing to do with finding symbolic meaning in the scriptures, contradictions in scripture or whether Jesus walked on water.

It has to do with the support of the idea that the Bible writers presented false history as true history and thinking this deception was not a deception and was a righteous thing to do. Why do you think that the fabrication of history was not a fabrication of history? I am amazed that more than a dozen people on the planet can swallow such a contradictory idea.

Copyright 2014 by J J Dewey

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Series NavigationKeys Writings 2014, Part 13The Grand Tour

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