Forum Conflict #1

Judy’s Post #1

Dan I think she has probably inadvertently learned this socially detrimental coping mechanism of using vicious vindictive verbal abuse to intimidate others into giving in her primarily because no one has taught her different by standing up to her bullying. Giving in is just easier and less painful than standing up and being subject to escalating abuse.

Judy How untrue.   I am very successful in business and if I was such a horrible person then how could I be a valued and well-paid professional in a multi-billion dollar corporation?  I am well-spoken and professional with people.  I know out-of-line and off-the-wall comments when I hear them and witness it.  You can try to utilize all the damage-control you want on this to make your selves look innocent and harmless  but I am not fooled and nor are my friends here.   I was plainly describing how I saw you and Larry’s unproven and undocumented comments about women.  Everything I said to you was true.  The words I used that sounded so vicious to you and JJ were “prejudiced”, “pompous”, conjecture”, and “undocumented”.   I had no problem with you repeating what I said but the problem was that you took my words out of context with little ” “s before and after them.    Therefore, you manipulated JJ as you usually do to only see my words out of context so they sounded way more negative.  When in context they are simple observations to the negative comments LWK made first. You have tried to gloss over what LWK said and therefore downplay how and what he said to seem innocuous. I am going to quote verbatim what LWK wrote so that you cannot alter the truth of how hurtful and harmful his original words:

> LWK ” I have often wondered if we should mark the > > beginning of the fall of modern Western > > civilization with the passage of the > > Nineteenth Amendment?” >

LWK “Actually, I meant exactly what I said. It seems to me that the Founders were great examples of thinkers on the mental plane and largely emobided the male energy of reason and logic. On the other hand modern politics seems to be more ruled by female emotional energy. JJ said that male energy is bright and visible whereas female energy was hidden, and magnetic. So it is hard to say whether women getting the vote was a cause, or a sympton (I would lean towards the latter explanation).”

Judy JJ’s only responded to these prejudiced comments as “unusual”. I actually thought he was taken aback by the comments as I was and others that I know here were as they told me they were shocked by them.  The fact that JJ did not correct Larry for making such ludicrous comments let me down.  I am even more shocked that he has no understanding of how or why such comments would be considered hurtful to women and harmful. I am not going to defend the passage of the 19th amendment as a step forward in evolution.   It is not my place to do that but more JJ’s place to make sure his forum stays in integrity and truth.  I will not do that as it is more on Larry to prove his theories and not the other way around.  To say, that I have to defend women against Larry’s comments is not fair and I will not do it.  I will say that his comments are undocumented and to seem to be based on a prejudiced or slanted perspective few have.  They are definitely then based on conjecture alone and I doubt Larry could show any statistical evidence to back up his thinking.   To then praise LWK for his thinking seems to be inflammatory and would show you agree with his thinking.  To now say you only praised him but do not understand how that associates you with his thoughts is illogical.  When we praise someone’s thoughts that means we agree with their thoughts.

Dan There you have me, the good, bad, and ugly. For the record and whether right, wrong or otherwise, I don’t consider “enabling” to be a loving behavior and standing up to someone for their own as well as group good may very well be the most truly loving thing one could do.

Judy I still see you as prejudiced in your thinking about women or you would have been appalled by Larry’s comments as was I.  Instead you praised him for thinking out of the box. I think anyone that agrees with Larry or praises Larry’s thinking must be challenged for their integrity and their prejudice and I am sorry you cannot handle opposition to your appraisals.

Dan This is my final thought on this regardless of response, I thought long and hard about whether to post it and decided on the side of integrity. Finis

Judy Good!   I do not respect your opinions or input to me or about me or having to do with me in any way.  Please refrain from mentioning my name again here or anywhere else.

 

Judy’s Post #2

JJ Few new members have come aboard the last few years and a large reason for this is there are too many personal attacks and personality conversations that bore or offend new people.

Judy The fact that Larry said what he did and neither you or anyone else defended the role of women in politics and the passage of the 19th amendment would have eventually cost you way more supporters and offended the new people so much worse than anything Ruth or I could ever do or say.

I am sure there are many people here new or not who lean “left” and might leave because of your recent posts that call them “leftys” or “true believers” .  You obviously have no regard for attracting or maintaining your member-base that leans “left”.  Why are so over-concerned about people who would not like me or Ruth?  I know that Ruth’s posting of quotes has to be a reason a lot of people are attracted and stay here.  I have not had a conflict with anyone here for the last 7 years since 2006 of any consequence and have not been moderated since 2005.

You should be more concerned about the “leftys” leaving in droves and how you are losing people due to all the political rhetoric of late.  LWK uses this forum to post articles from his right-wing blog.  That right there could be a huge turn-off for your group.

 

Judy’s 3rd Post
JJ
I didn’t see his political incorrectness as a big enough deal to jump up and down about.

Judy
No one jumped up and down. You guys (Dan first and then you) reacted to my use of the words “pompous conjecture” and “prejudiced comments”. It was not that big of a deal to me and should not have even mentioned but the lewd joke and the praising of Larry’s ideas by Dan gave me the idea to call a spade a spade. Actually Dan took my woprds out of context and posted them so that ti sounded like I was just calling names for no reason when I was merely making a point to why I thought the idea held no water.
Obviously, that was a bad decision on my part. I do not think I deserved to be moderated for using the word “pompous” and “prejudiced” in regard to someones idea. I asked for documentation or proof. I was not mad or emotional or really even cared that much about it.

Dan has called me way worse names over the years and you do not react to that. Why? he as called me a “useles coyote” and worse. This is way worse than saying someone’s idea is “pompous conjecture”.

I still do not care if you guys want to believe whatever you want to believe.

I will never use the word “pompous” which offended Dan. I think “prejudice” is okay though because JJ uses it too.

I do have a question to LWK and Dan. Do you really believe the idea that LWK presented that the decine in western civilization is due to women and the 19th amenedment is good and worth conetmplation for the group or were you trying to incite irritation and cause controversy?
Judy’s 4th Post

> LWK touched on the difference between male and female
> energies but again was politically incorrect.

My view is that anything that is “politically correct” is fair game to attack. 🙂

So, what is your view on the sexual dynamics of politics? Can you see a historical correlation between women getting the right to vote in 1920 and the rise of the political Left and the huge increase in the size, power, and intrusiveness of government in our lives?

It was only about decade later that we got FDR and the New Deal. Currently the “Gender Gap” is well documented in politics.

lwk

Judy
I am glad you point-blank asked JJ the question so he will give his opinion. He has avoided the subject directly. I gave my take on it he said I sounded insulting to you and Dan who praised the idea I am not impressed that the idea can hold any validity because there is not statistical evidence to back it up. There is only the surmising that such an idea could be true and is that enough to establish the idea as worthy?
I probably should have used the word “preposterous” instead of the wording I used calling the idea “pompous” as that word had a pejorative meaning attached. I see no validity in the proposition(s) that Larry is making. I do not say this to be hurtful to Larry or offend anyone. I am saying it because the idea is so preposterous that I am questioning whether the idea is worthy of discussion here due to is obvious invalidity. I see that the “idea” is only being proposed to cause undue controversy and must be instigated only to be hurtful or because LWK must have some animosities toward women. I say this to help LWK examine his prejudicial and thoughts that would predicate such an idea in the first place,
Again, this is not mean to be judgmental toward Larry but I think his radical idea is precipitated by preconceived notions and misunderstandings about female energy and how it operates in the world.

 

Judy’s 5th Post

Dan
And so while I did not intentionally incite her, I knew she would PROBABLY have a problem with me quoting her insults back to her. I could have chosen to just ignore her and let it go but in this instance I chose not to. Why?

I think she has probably inadvertantly learned this socially detrimental coping mechanism of using vicious vindictive verbal abuse to intimidate others into giving in her primarily because no one has taught her different by standing up to her bullying. Giving in is just easier and less painful than standing up and being subject to escalating abuse.

Judy
Why is that not “breaking the rules” of insulting a member?  He provoked you to enforce the rules by taking my words out of context and then he turned around and did the very same thing except worse.  I insulted an idea and he insulted me personally.
Why does he do this?  Because he can get by with it that is why.  How will he ever learn unless you enforce the rules?  He is so brazen that he cracks lewd jokes and demeans women right under your nose.

 

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24 thoughts on “Forum Conflict #1

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  2. Judy wrote:
    There is a definite inconsistency. Dan’s attacks towards me are much worse and derogatory and my words were only insulting an idea and not people. Dan’s derogatory and insulting remarks are mean and meant to be hurtful and attack me much more viciously than I would ever do in a social situation. Hhe cracks lewd jokes and all of this is because you do not moderate him and overlook his hurtful remarks. I even felt hurt in my soul at the vicious way he attacks me but no that is okay to do? What hurts the most is that you do nothing and that must mean you agree with Dan in my mind at his mean and hurtful attacks. You will even praise him shortly after one of his outbursts and a silent message that you approve of his anger and malicious attacks.

    Dan:
    You see youself as doing nothing wrong and me as doing everything wrong, and yet you are the one JJ places on moderation.

    Why is this do you suppose?

  3. It was a good idea to have an “airing” room, so that we could get it all of our chest and wipe the slate clean hopefully.

    RJ

  4. I am wondering why you went to the trouble to set up this site and keep directing people to go over here and read and comment if you do not want anyone to comment here. If we get gold stars for NOT posting here on Freeread then I will certainly not post here ever again. I misunderstood and thought you wanted the topic to continue here. If you do not want it to continue then why not just reject my posts since I am on moderation? You and Dan have made several posts mentioning my name over on keys so I thought you wanted a response. Then you criticize me for posting replies. I certainly would never have replied if I knew I would be criticized for responding. I was under the false assumption you thought it would be therapeutic or something and that is why you set up this site . I am baffled now. You seem to set up situations so you can criticize me and Ruth and then praise the men for doing the opposite. I am sure she thought the same thing so to judge us harshly for posting here is mean and hateful.

    Please stop making false accusations about me on keys if you want me to not reply to them with my version.
    Dan intended to be hurtful and insulting to me and that is wrong even if you approve of that type of behavior. I did not intend to hurt anyone by calling an idea “pompous” and that is the difference. He insulted a person and I insulted someone’s idea. Big difference. Plus, I was not even trying to be insulting but just accurate in my observation.
    I will be mailing back your brochures and CDs I no longer have good enough relationship with you to teach Keys of Knowledge to people in Wilmington. I would not feel comfortable teaching or supporting your words when you are so mean and hateful to me in a public forum. Plus the students and members the Wilmington meet-up group could read how hateful you are tome and that would be hard to explain to them.
    I am glad I found out your true feelings and prejudices before I stated a meet-up group for Keys of Knowledge.

    1. Judy: “…if you do not want anyone to comment here.”

      I never said I didn’t want anyone to comment here. Where did you get this idea? I want everyone to comment here who wants to continue this argument. Those who want to stay on subjects pertinent to Keys interests in a friendly manner should post on the Keys.

      What false accusation did I make toward you in the Keys?????

      I think you (and possibly Ruth) are the only ones (male or female) who
      think I’ve been anything but kind to you. In the many thousands of
      words I have written in response to you I do not think you can find
      one mean sentence.

      You also seem to be the only one who didn’t understand my clear
      directives that I wanted the arguments on lwk and Dan’s comments to
      cease on the Keys and if members desire to continue they can do so to
      their heart’s content on freeread.

      I moved them to freeread because I do not want to deny anyone their
      desire to express themselves nor deny anyone the opportunity to read
      your unedited words. I have accomplished this and at the same time
      brought peace to the Keys, a win win situation as far as I am
      concerned.

      Sorry your feelings are hurt. You really seem to misread my words
      lately or you wouldn’t feel this way. I extend nothing but friendship
      toward you.

  5. In Post #5 Judy writes:
    Because he can get by with it that is why. How will he ever learn unless you enforce the rules? He is so brazen that he cracks lewd jokes and demeans women right under your nose.

    JJ
    Jokes are not against the rules here, unless they are totally gross which wasn’t the case here. Dan did use strong language this one time in the conflict but he describes your actual words used. You, on the other hand crossed the line a number of times before I put you on moderation. Do you notice that peace has again been established on the Keys now your attack posts have been moved here? It looks like you are the only one that needs moderation who participated in the conflict. Dan isn’t making all kinds of posts that continue the conflict as you have been trying to do.

    From now on I am going to attempt to nip these circular conflicts in the bud as they disrupt the group purpose.

  6. Ruth
    Johann has twice laughed and admitted to manipulating me into a battle, so that I look wrong, bad, mean etc etc.

    Johann
    I think you need a beer to loosen up. So that you look wrong? You are utterly confused about my motives and
    I stated them at the time. But you only see what you want to see through your fixed notions. Standing up
    against the negative conditioning that has been going on for years, that is one.


    Ruth
    And….Judy and I must always use “plane of mind”, over any “emotional sounding”
    response we make to any other member here, regardless of whether anyone else
    uses their “plane of mind” or emotions or baits us into an emotional battle?

    Correct?

    JJ
    Incorrect. You can be as emotional as you want a long as you obey the rules of
    the group. Sometimes the more emotional the better. Sometimes Rob gets really
    emotional in his posts and I love it.”

    Like I said, I think you need a beer or something.

    Ruth
    “In fact, if people are that scared of facing any sort of conflict, questioning, personal attacks, etc etc, then how will they ever learn to fight for the Truth and work for Christ? Master DK says it takes courage. You say that one will be hated by most of humanity for working for the Christ.”

    To do evil so that good might come? No wonder I stay the hell away from the keys. No one is interested to have
    their heads based in when discussing the issues or on innocent remark is made, laughing or not.

    That is not seeking harmlessness.

    JJ
    JJ
    Mind in touch with soul will seek harmlessness. Mind alone does not.

    1. To Johann,

      Why would you deliberately gloat about manipulating me into a fight, and then think that it is funny, that you were manipulating me into defending my self and my posts, Johann? That does not make sense to me at all.

      I do not need a beer. I do not drink beer. To suggest that I need a beer, is also suggesting that I need to lighten up because of my “emotions”? Or what? Because I tell the Truth as I see it? Because I highlighted the case against your manipulation of my thoughts? Because I was logical and right in my assumption of you?

      Maybe I need more respect and courtesy from you and a few other members instead of deliberate accusations against me and personality issues that some of you have in regards to me.

      I did extend the hand of friendship many times and also apologized for any mistakes I have made.

      Can you?

      RJ

      1. You know, I did this as a favor to you. How people can easily be manipulated through an unthinking solar
        plexus ideal. I do not need the lesson you seem so intent on teaching, but to those who do need it you
        come of too strong. (Kill that light it’s so bright and you’re shining it right in my eyes). Many times I have tried
        to offer a hand of friendship but the result has been negative. My intent was not to disrespect but to show
        that this makes you very vulnerable. You allow yourself to be manipulated through this security hole of
        yours and to give you power away. And you so it to fulfill an unworthy agenda, what that is I leave up to
        you.

        I did extend the hand of friendship many times and also apologized for any mistakes I have made.

        Can you?

        Or do you want the ideal of 100%? Then this will only continue. That is what blinds you from any light on
        this has it has been going on for years. The fault is not mine.

        Duran Duran – I Take The Dice
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx8Ktp1elRw

        1. Why do you think or presume that you need to do me a favor? I was not even using my solar plexus to the degree that you imagine me too be. You assume that because I am a female, then I must be over emotional 24/7 when I am not. Do not do me any more “favors” by manipulating my posts to create a “situation”.

          Actually because I tend to be a sender, this probably upsets some alpha males, who only want to be senders to females and not receivers.

          The fault is not entirely mine either, and you know that. You are in denial if you think you are helping me in some strange manipulating way.

          1. These type of situations can always happen in life and it does not matter if it is “created” or not,
            if not me then someone else. No one is above learning and men are not above learning even
            though they are polarized as senders and we men know that as we men have the experience
            of being men just as women have the experience of being women. You always negate that point
            and think the only thing we are interested in is to shut women up and listen to our own voices.
            This is derogatory to the male gender and does not contain mutual respect. So that what is
            supposedly the desire for mutual respect is being sold out for something else. Jumping up and
            down to try to get a hard demand through.

            Maybe I am in denial that I am helping you in some way but that does not surprise, you are a
            strong woman that can’t be “broken” and you do not need any advice or favors, perhaps that
            is the way you see men or above learning and having an easy time of it. Compared to “poor”
            women. The word poor focuses on lack and it creates a vacuum that needs filling. See, we
            do listen and try to understand and help. But that is taken as disrespect or consideration
            is taken as inconsideration. Then nothing will get through. Pure reason is not the same
            as “the cold manipulating calculus of reason” to serve one’s own ends and reason is a
            characteristic traditionally associated with men as senders. The genders are not the same
            and there are some things women are good at but that does not seem to matter here. So
            this is both derogatory to men as genders and you are selling out your own womanhood as they
            are so “poor”.

            And for what?

            100%……

            And you did write your own posts, I can’t be held accountable for that. Either you did write them or
            not, another way of giving one’s power away to the men you seem so afraid of. And then you take
            that power back or think you are taking it back by harassing us. You can’t have it both ways you know,
            see men as enablers with no real decision involved on your part. Then we get into rules and
            regulations territory to regulate men’s behavior as sometimes has been the case on the were
            you have wanted to set some laws on them to “steady” them. And you do it all the time in your
            own way on the keys and it has caused problems sorry to say or all equally guilty mentality. Or you
            are no better than me kind of thing or all equally miserable and no “prize” at all in either men or
            your own poor gender, women. And yet you are strong?

            This does not add up.

            JJ or Dan or lwk are not trying to break you and there is no need to treat us as hostiles because we
            might not be perfect and yet you want to be as able as you see them, how can you try to become
            something that you do not like? It must be hard living with this conflict inside. It does tear you
            down I can imagine.

            But hey, don’t listen to me because you are strong remember?

          2. “And then you take that power back or think you are taking it back by harassing us. ”

            Mirror effect Johann.

            By your own admissions twice you have said that you manipulated me, by trying to get me to respond in an angry fashion to you.

            We all mirror our own upbringings too.

            I bet your Mum was really strong, so you used manipulative techniques on her to get attention, even if it was negative attention.

            In fact, as a child, I did the same thing.

            So it is not Power that I have, but understanding and insights into other people and why they react towards me the way I do, and then I work with Harmony through Conflict to bring any issues to a head and clear the air.

            Children live what they learn from their Parents.

            We have to unlearn all our old emotional habits and personality habits, and this is what the Mirroring of each other is for, to see our own selves and to understand our own flaws and to correct them slowly over the course of our lifetimes.

            RJ

          3. You become what you admire and do I sound that admire my parents and what they stand for? You
            have been very helpful with the quotes. I never used any techniques like that on her, I was always
            trying to protect my siblings and to give them something.

            I did not write your posts and I say that again. I agreed with the points we had in common and gave
            you some criticism as well but I calculated the odds that you would not see the common ground
            and just see the bad as a close to 100%. Or in other words, that you would not treat me with
            respect and it went accordingly. That was the nature of the “manipulation” if you can call it that. I
            just decided to do it. You did all the work really. It must be embarrassing being so out of control and
            then to try to pass it of on others.

            ““And then you take that power back or think you are taking it back by harassing us. ”

            Mirror effect Johann.”

            That was a cheap shot and you know it, do you know what you are negating here? You just
            negated all of my previous post. This is sheer arrogance to me, that you think that you know more
            about myself that I do.

            If you think that I admire the folks that almost pushed me to suicide in favor of outer peace and am
            just mindlessly replicating their behavior then you must be out of your mind.

            I do not admire sheer strength and dominance at the expense of others and it is not I that am calling
            for political correctness.

            So we are not perfect but so what?

            Reacts towards you? The answer is starring you right in the face, it is not big mystery. No one is
            interested to be attacked when discussing the issues or an innocent remark is made and no you
            do not have the freedom to do that. The slightest criticism and all blows sky high. That is how I
            calculated the odds. 100%….

          4. Firstly, Johann.

            Johann said: ““And then you take that power back or think you are taking it back by harassing us. ”

            Ruth said: Mirror effect Johann.”

            Johann said: “That was a cheap shot and you know it, do you know what you are negating here? You just
            negated all of my previous post. This is sheer arrogance to me, that you think that you know more
            about myself that I do.”

            It is obvious that you called the cheap shot first by telling me how you think I behave and think, when in reality, you have NO idea about what I am really feeling.

            You incite me into an emotional response, and then turn around and say that I always react this way 100% towards you guys, when in reality, I am only answering questions or defending my statements etc.

            I can be very passionate. There is nothing wrong with emotions, as we all use them and have them. I am not outrageously rude, insulting or belittling in my comments to others. I am not even being overly or 100% sarcastic. I can write and feel no emotion. It is your perception of me that creates a smoke screen of illusions when I write what I write.

            If someone attacks my thoughts or me personally, then I defend myself. That is usually human nature. I defend what I believe to be true and just because many years ago I was always defending JJ or his teachings and I came across as very rude, it does not mean that I am still like that. Learning the truth can create major changes within.

            I am not embarrassed by anything I have ever displayed on the group. If I have made mistakes in my approach to others, then I always apologized when it was pointed out. I did not intend to deliberately make them feel slighted etc.

            So what if women are more emotional than men.

            Alice Bailey had a bad temper for years and was abused and even was a bit of a snob towards lower class people. But she grew and learned and expanded her consciousness, which then helped her to change and control her lower emotions. Nothing to be embarrassed about. We are all in the same boat usually.

            It is about using our emotions in a harmless manner, and this takes a lot of time and practice.

            So when you instigate posts to inflame me or to make me reply angrily etc, then it is your own fault for pushing my buttons in the beginning, rather than approach me on the same level that you would the men in the group and talk to me without trying to make me attack you etc.

            Disciples can have a very powerful emotional body, so it can be harder to tame. Therefore rather than try and make me fight with you or the others, why not just make peace and stop instigating a particular reaction from me, just so you can make a point and say “I told you so”. If you always expect me to react 100% in a certain way, then that is all that you will see in me, rather than see me changing and growing.

            RJ

          5. Johann: The slightest criticism and all blows sky high. That is how I
            calculated the odds. 100%….”

            The slightest criticism? I beg to differ on that remark……..

            I have had many criticisms of my personality over the years by other people.

            In fact, rather than get extremely offended, I always look at what other people say to me and then I look within myself and see if it is true, and what I can do to change my personality flaws.

            Not many people can actually do that. Because most people get highly offended and do not reflect within what they hear from without.

            It does take strength and courage to battle one’s programming and personality faults.

            Everyday my own daughter always picks on my personality, because it grates on her nerves. So I get a daily dose of big criticism from my own daughter, so anything that you guys say to me is not even that offensive to me because I have learned to not be offended by other people’s remarks about me.

            I am more than just a personality. I am a soul using my emotional body to study my lower self.

            RJ

          6. I this still not over????

            “I am more than just a personality. I am a soul using my emotional body to study my lower self.”

            Why do you think I did you the favor? I have more interesting things to do than to answer made up
            thoughts what I am supposed be like. I can post pages up on pages of dialog were I do nothing else
            but to help people grow and enable women to get find their own true power but that is something that
            I have outside the keys list. And no I will not betray ones I am working on behalf just to prove a point
            in this pointless and frankly boring argument.

  7. I think Judy’s statements in Post #2 have it spot on. If there is a notable decrease in popularity of the Keysters, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is due to the fact that most of the content in the Keysters involves JJ and LWK constantly bashing stigmas of the left. I just love the Thinker versus True Believer dialogues where JJ basically argues with himself, often misrepresenting the side that the True Believer is intended to portray by making up a rare personality and sometimes leaving important things out entirely. I think if JJ actually took some time to get to know the people that he lumps together into “the Left,” he would see that they are not the morons he portrays them to be.

    1. Whenever you talk politics you are going to turn some people off but I have had a lot more email me saying that are staying away because of conflict and rambling off topic of posters than politics.

      If you think I ever misrepresent the left then you should speak up. You can’t represent them all with one person but have to go for an average response which I think i have gotten pretty accurately.

      1. In essence, you said that people are not joining the group because of conflict and rambling or rather:

        JJ: “Few new members have come aboard the last few years and a large reason for this
        is there are too many personal attacks and personality conversations that bore
        or offend new people.”

        I believe that you are really talking about me and Judy and the way in which we have defended ourselves or posts against some males in the group. If Judy and I left the group, then would these people join up with the keysters?
        I know that some of the older members always feel that Judy and I are thorns in the side of you and them and the group. Judy and I are not stupid. We know the feelings of some of the other members who now refuse to interact with the Keysters because of me or Judy. In fact, if people are that scared of facing any sort of conflict, questioning, personal attacks, etc etc, then how will they ever learn to fight for the Truth and work for Christ? Master DK says it takes courage. You say that one will be hated by most of humanity for working for the Christ.

        Many times I have left the group, so that others, or the old members or new comers will not fear posting to the goup. Lord knows I have had my personality flaws exposes and bashed out of me by others in your group, who are doing “loving deeds” by showing me where I go wrong, and I accepted that and have tried to grow and learn.

        My main problem is that you NEVER publicly call any of the men up and expose them, like you have done with me and Judy. Johann has twice laughed and admitted to manipulating me into a battle, so that I look wrong, bad, mean etc etc. There is “attacking another persons personality”, and then there is “exposing another persons personality trait”. Judy might sound attacking, but in effect she is exposing a personality trait or blind spot. Now maybe we are not supposed to expose these things to other members in the group. However, when you go about exposing personality traits in regards to people outside of the group, like politicians or Chris N etc, then it is confusing to know at which point are we allowed to expose or shine light on an illusion or blind spot in comparison with it seeming like a personality attack?

        I have stayed away from the group, and people did not participate very much and new members didn’t post to the group, so what is really keeping people away? Me and Judy? Or something else?

        We could do an experiment and Judy and I could stay away from the group for 6 months, and then see how many new members you get and how many of the old members start to participate as students again and get more involved in your group teachings, because so far the only people participating are Larry, Larry, Judy, me and Dan and Dean at the moment.

        Perhaps you could change the group to just a teaching class, and students are only allowed to post answers and thoughts to your specific questions. No more random OT discussions, no more friend to friend pat on the backs or discussions on personality traits. Maybe that is the problem. The classroom exists as more of a forum for men to discuss their thoughts and who want to teach women, and the discussions get way off track, like how much some men love their guns etc etc, and the group has no real internal core of significance anymore.

        In the beginning it was a fantastic time learning all the new principles you taught and answering your questions etc. Now it is mostly boring talk about politics, guns etc etc. The group has slowed down because your teachings are nearly exhausted. You said that you were not writing the 12 book series because most of the teachings are now in the Archives. I loved reading those books, but now things have changed, and maybe even the plan has changed direction?

        So in essence, be honest with me and Judy, rather than talk around the topic.

        Do you think that if Judy and I left the group for 6 months, then members and new people would start returning and things would improve? Are Judy and I holding the group back or ruining your mission?

        RJ

        1. Wow, you’re really playing the martyr here. Every time there is a problem you assume all fingers are pointing at you. You need to ask yourself why this is.

          It is true that you and Judy are part of the problem for you have both been at the center of conflict, but others have been in conflict myself including myself. Complaints I have received have been that there have been too many off message posts (in addition to conflict) which i cannot blame you for any more than others.

          You seem to seek for any excuse to quit. Now you want to quit to see if new people will join. Why don’t you just concentrate on teachings and the current topic rather than things that offed you. Realize that you are among friends. The whole group would be a lot better off.

          1. I am not playing at being the martyr here. Nor am I looking for an excuse to quit all the time. I am trying to find the balance between not sounding too “insulting to others” when I reply back to them, because it seems that no matter how I try to write my replies to Dan or any other member who I reply too, they seem to still see me as being rude, sarcastic, inflaming etc etc., when I know that I have not been any of those things in my posts and have not deliberately tried to insult anyone because I know that is wrong and is not practicing harmlessness, so please give me some benefit of the doubt when you come to read my posts and then read the replies that are “snipped” to make me sound sarcastic or rude, when that was not my intention, thought or word.

            Even when I think I am not doing anything wrong or personality attacking anyone who I reply too, I am still being told that I am either too sarcastic or too insulting etc etc, mainly by Dan because he seems to be the only man who tackles me or Judy when we post, oh, except for Johann.

            I do notice that when you guys tackle each other in your posts, no one worries about how insulting anyone becomes, such as the way Blayne was towards you in his posts last year, and it seems okay to do this when you are a bloke.?

            In the beginning of the group I would always defend you and your teachings against any new comer that deliberately came into the group to attack you personally. I could always pick their vibration and see through their attacks. I do admit to becoming very defensive against some other members over the years because I saw their posts towards me as attacking also.

            When you make a statement such as this:

            “JJ: “Few new members have come aboard the last few years and a large reason for this
            is there are too many personal attacks and personality conversations that bore
            or offend new people.””

            I then naturally assume that you are talking about mostly me and Judy because we are the two females who voice our opinions and thoughts the MOST in your group and because of my past mistakes in my posts towards some other particular people, then I think that you are directing a blanket statement such as this towards me because I have been a constant regular poster for over ten years and have been very passionate, supportive and fixated on the group discussions etc.

            I am not offended easily these days nor do I a have martyr syndrome like you constantly address every time we go through this round of conflict over many years.

            Yes, I probably was easily offended many years ago or even last year. Yes I may have some strange martyr syndrome in my youth and early adult life. No I do not think I am a martyr at this time in my life. No, I am not offended by anything you or the others have said lately. Yes, I quit the group because I thought that was in the best interest of the group as a whole to do. No I do not look for excuses to quit the group.

            When Johann deliberately intimidated me into a negative situation, you made me out as the scape goat and you did not say one word to Johann about his wrong behavior. He laughed and joked about it to the group and got away with it, not once but twice. But you only brought my post to the attention of the group and made a spectacle out of me. That is what I have a BIG problem with in the group. Johann was not told off, nor moderated. Only me. Why? Why single me out but not other people who make even worse mistakes and then admit to being manipulative towards me? That is strange and I do not understand the motive for that.

            RJ

        2. To Ruth:
          You say:
          “I then naturally assume that you are talking about mostly me and Judy … Why single me out but not other people…”

          Both you and Judy often see fingers pointing at you when no one is even thinking about you. If I were you I wouldn’t be offended at an insult unless you know specifically that you are the one addressed.

          In rhe current circumstance Judy was the center of the conflict yet you are talking like you are. Yet no one has said any of your recent posts violated the rules.

          Blayne and I had strong disagreements but we did not insult each other. There is a huge diference. I am trying to wean the group away from making insults.

          I do not read all the exchanges when people get off topic but when I have caught Johann crossing the line with you in the past I put him on moderation. If you feel harassed by anyone you should email me.

          1. I am Judy’s friend and we both try and help each other through these trying times with some of the other members. Right from the days of Triads, there was trouble brewing. Judy and I were not welcome in Triads, and we did not feel like people were very friendly towards us, and we have been excluded from Triads ever since. There was behind the scenes talking going on about us and your closest friends would email you about problems that they had with me or Judy, rather than email me or Judy about their issues with our personalities. This then caused a rift that has never healed. You may not see this, because you are oblivious to what was happening back then and you act only as the observer.

            Actually Blayne was embarrassing rude and insulting about you. You must have had your blinkers on, not to see that. In fact, if Blayne had had any respect for you, he would have apologized, but instead he disappears for years at a time.

            Dan said to me: “Here is what you [Ruth] said in response to my (literal, Aspberger’s)
            explanation of the joke. Ruth: “Do we really need a Sex 101 class … ?” and
            Ruth: “We are all adults here Dan, and unless we never had sex or genitals, then
            I think that we all would know and realize this fact.”

            Since you have Asperger’s you probably don’t realize these are both very
            sarcastic/belittling appearing comments to make in response to someone
            attempting to help (clarify a misunderstanding).”
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Keysters/message/63313

            He is suggesting to the group that I was being very sarcastic/belittling in my comments, when in fact, I was not. He was going into so much sexual detail about his joke, that it was disturbing. All I said was that we Do not need a Sex 101 class, because as adults we all knew about sex and bodily functions and parts, but for some reason he wanted to explain explicitly what his joke meant. That just brings down the vibration of your group and looks immature and silly to outsiders. I was not trying to belittle him nor was I being sarcastic. About 90% of the time when I post my thoughts to others, my emotions are in the neutral zone and I do not feel anything. So he was trying to stir up trouble for me by deliberately snipping parts of my comments and then slotting in the words sarcastic/belittling.

            In fact, if not for your teachings over the past 12 years, I would not have advanced as much as I have in my thought processes and inner reflection of both my mind and emotions. Yes I still have problems with being partially Asperger, but I have also overcome some parts of the syndrome because I learned to expand my consciousness and analyse my emotions etc.

            RJ

          2. To Ruth:
            You say:
            “I then naturally assume that you are talking about mostly me and Judy … Why single me out but not other people…”

            Both you and Judy often see fingers pointing at you when no one is even thinking about you. If I were you I wouldn’t be offended at an insult unless you know specifically that you are the one addressed.

            Judy
            In the last incidence the exact opposite was true. You moderated me because Dan was offended by my use of certain words to describe Larry’s idea. I am past thinking any one is out to get me anymore. What is weird is how you jumped so quickly to moderate me for insulting Dan and Larry but Dan has insulted me repeatedly for years and did it yesterday and you said and did nothing. There is a definite inconsistency. Dan’s attacks towards me are much worse and derogatory and my words were only insulting an idea and not people. Dan’s derogatory and insulting remarks are mean and meant to be hurtful and attack me much more viciously than I would ever do in a social situation. Hhe cracks lewd jokes and all of this is because you do not moderate him and overlook his hurtful remarks. I even felt hurt in my soul at the vicious way he attacks me but no that is okay to do? What hurts the most is that you do nothing and that must mean you agree with Dan in my mind at his mean and hurtful attacks. You will even praise him shortly after one of his outbursts and a silent message that you approve of his anger and malicious attacks.

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