2000-3-8 00:51:00
Not many posts today. Hope I'm not putting you to sleep out there. The few posts we have had have been interesting.
Keith does not post very often but when he does, he usually says something of interest. First, I will quote a post that I agree with:
"I believe that two new age authors (Agartha/Mentor and Jane Roberts/Seth) wrote about Karma being transmuted by the giving of love through the active energy of the heart centre. These authors did not say that Karma was lessened by this action, but only that Karma was paid back in a heightened or quickened manner. Somehow these writings have been misinterpreted to mean that Karma can be dispensed with by simply adopting love as an idea and not as an active ingredient that requires action on the part of the individual."
JJ:
This is indeed a true principle he mentions here. There are times that a person may accumulate tremendous Karma, such as being responsible for many deaths. Instead of coming back and giving his life ten times for ten lives he may pay the whole thing off in one life through loving service where he saves the lives of ten people, either physically of spiritually.
If you take out a loan at a bank for $100,000 when your income is at $30,000 a year, it may be a significant struggle to pay it off. But if you work within the laws of prosperity and triple your income, then you can triple the amount of payment that you make and pay off the loan much sooner than expected. The effect of the $100,000 was not reduced, but the capacity to pay the debt was increased.
Then Keith responded to my presentation of using correspondences in discovering the most probable truth about the return of Christ. One of the things I talked about was the idea that a prophecy is likely to fail if it has no correspondence in history. To this Keith says:
"Before Edison invented the light bulb there was nothing in recorded or mythological history that corresponded to this event. The detonation of the atomic bomb has no correspondence to anything in recorded history that I know of."
JJ:
But there is a correspondence to this my friend. The concept of inventing is not a new thing. There are thousands of new patents filed each year. There have been new inventions in the past, new inventions are being developed right now and many new and unheard of inventions are yet to come.
When new and usable inventions come into reality, the principles that make them work will always have correspondences to working principles of past inventions and/or the great science that is observed in nature.
The atomic bomb has many correspondences and we have talked about many of these in the past. Niels Bohr, whose work laid the foundation for the bomb, got a lot of his inspiration by contemplating the correspondence between a solar system and an atom.
Edison saw that lightening lit up the night sky and felt that he could create a smaller light that could harness that electricity on a lesser level.
Keith continues:
"Christian fundamentalists do not believe that when God raptures them into a new life with Christ they will exist in some sort of perfect stasis."
JJ:
I have talked to hundreds, perhaps thousands of them in my lifetime and each one that I have talked to seems to say the same thing. When they are with Christ or in heaven each individual will be perfect in character, happiness and bliss. They tell me that God will transform their imperfect character into a new person in Christ that will not be able to sin any more. When I ask them about any additional progress they will make when they are with Christ they have no answer except that maybe they'll be doing something exciting, but they can't say what that will be. I am told again and again that heaven will be a great place because of things we cannot understand.
Keith:
If you read Hal Lindsey and a few others of that ilk they describe a raptured existence which continues expanding forever. Their learning has just begun at this point. They describe a new life immortal with Christ as co-heirs or Sons of Christ, serving God the Father in capacities undreamed of."
JJ:
I have read Hal Lindsey and many others and do not remember them talking about any type of eternal progression as the Mormons teach. Most of them will criticize the Mormons for the idea that additional progress can be made in heaven when you are already living in a perfect state.
Lindsey is more intelligent than most, but I cannot think of even one of his predictions from using the Bible which has come true. I can think of quite a few that have not. For instance he was expecting the end of the world to arrive some time ago. He has to keep rewriting his books to make them fit into the current time frame.
I would bet that Sterling is a fan of this guy, for some of his teachings of the end of things seem to follow his teachings.
Keith:
"Having just read the above you may suspect me of being a closet Christian Fundamentalist. I am as far away from this viewpoint as one can imagine. Nevertheless, I get a bit tired of occasionally reading things about them on this list which puts words in their mouths which I have never read or heard myself."
JJ:
You certainly have not sounded like one so far. Most of your postings have been quite logical. As far as my putting words in their mouth I do not believe I have done this. I am very familiar with the beliefs of many religions and if I have stated a belief of a certain group I am sure I can back up that which I have stated. If you wish to quote me on any statement I have made I would be happy to explain why I believe it to be accurate.
I get a similar criticism from new agers, for I attempt to point out illusions on both the left and the right.
Keith:
"I find it quite possible for God to manifest himself to the world by lighting up the horizon from one end of the earth to another. I do not particularly believe that this will happen, although I do not limit God's actions to just correspondences in the past."
JJ:
I did not say that such an event was impossible, but that it was highly improbable based on the Law of Correspondences.
In addition to this, many believe that at this event the wicked will be destroyed by fire. This idea of impulsively destroying the wicked by fire does not harmonize with the words of Jesus in the Bible.
Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luke 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luke 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Here the disciples were angry because a village rejected them so they petitioned Jesus to use his power to bring down fire from heaven and consume these rebellious one. To this idea it is written:
"But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
Even so, many are expecting Jesus to show up and do that which he condemned in his last visit - such people will be disappointed. He has no more desire to zap the unbelievers now then he did 2000 years ago. I know a number of religious zealots who confess that they cannot wait for God to show up and destroy the wicked by fire, but as Jesus said, they know not what manner of spirit they are.
Keith:
"There are many correspondences in history where the wicked are singled out and destroyed: Noah and the story of the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the angel of death passing over Pharaoh's Egypt. In all cases God acts to destroy the wicked and save a remnant. Therefore, I do not find it improbable that God will once again destroy the wicked in order to save the just. I do not believe that this is in the cards as many fundamentalist do. But with God you can never be so sure. Remember, he is quick to anger!"
JJ:
Let's look at the past two hundred years where we have an accurate record. The most notable destruction of a people in this period was Hitler's attempt to destroy the Jewish race. In addition we have had many wars, including two world wars. There have been many famines and natural disasters and in each instance, when we look at those who suffered and died, on the average they were not particularly good or evil, but just average folks trying to get on in the world.
All destruction comes through the law of cause and effect and God himself must wield this law if he is to wreck havoc on the souls of men.
We have to go back to Bible times to find the destruction of a people who were identified as "the wicked." But even here there is no correspondence to the tribulation expected by the fundamentalists. There is nothing in the Bible about a people being raptured leaving those who remain to be destroyed.
Let us take the time of Moses. If Pharaoh would have let the slaves go free there would have been no destruction at all. The plagues increased in severity only because Egypt refused to free the Israelites. Finally, when they were freed, the Pharaoh and his armies pursued the Israelites to destroy them. The final miracle of drowning the armies of Egypt in the Red Sea was an act of self defense.
Now let us take the standard Christian belief in the end of times. It could be a day like today. Suddenly millions of Christians are just missing because they have been raptured into heaven. Those who remain behind are now at the mercy of an antichrist that will make Hitler look like Snow White. For three and a half years he will rule the world with a reign of terror. Then at the end of this period all who remain will be destroyed by fire. There are several versions of what happens next, but most believe that Jesus and the raptured ones will come back to earth and live here as kings for a thousand years.
Now in the Bible times when destruction was on the horizon, the people in danger were warned by a prophet who foresaw the future and whose predictions actually came true.
Those who are considered the wicked today by the fundamentalists have only been warned by many people who have never made an accurate prophesy and have shown no reason why they should be believed. Moses at least turned a staff into a snake, Elijah made fire come down from heaven, Jesus rose from the dead and so on. Are the "wicked' of today justly warned when their next door neighbor just parrots to him mantras that he heard at church that have never been tested in any way?
If a people were to be destroyed by the coming of the Lord he would warn them in a way so they would be left without excuse, just as Pharaoh and his armies were without excuse and deserved the fate they reaped. If God is indeed just, then a person destroyed by God for his evil ways would have to confess that he deserved such a fate.
I know there are millions of people judged by fundamentalists as deserving of the fire who would certainly question the justice of God if they were destroyed merely because they did not accept the right version of Jesus. One must also realize that many of the rapture believers think that many believers in Christ will be destroyed because they accept the wrong version of Jesus. These include the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, New Agers and many others.
Keith:
"I have met a number of Christian Fundamentalists who are not emotionally flawed, although I will admit to having met a few who are!"
JJ:
I was speaking of a principle here that applies to all people. At least 99% of us have emotional flaws.
Keith:
"The definition of transformed indicates a changed state of being, therefore when these believers (fundamentalists) are translated into the Kingdom of God they will not be the same disagreeable individuals they were in their fallen mortal bodies. They will possess immortal light bodies."
JJ:
There is no correspondence to any alteration in body changing a person from one who is irritating as hell to one who is heavenly nice.
Keith:
"I have witnessed a few examples in my life of completely wicked and selfish individuals being changed through some sort of spiritual experience. If this can happen in the physical I see no reason why it cannot happen in the spirit."
JJ:
I have seen a lot of people who have claimed to have made this change, but I have never witnessed anything close to it. A lot of people have made a change of habit, career, or belief system, but when I have seen this happen I have noticed very little change in the fundamental character. For instance, I have never seen a selfish person become unselfish in a short period of time. The best I have seen here is maybe a slight change over 20-30 years.
Keith:
"I recall a thief being on the cross beside Christ who proclaimed a belief that Jesus indeed was the Christ. Jesus responded by assuring him that he would enter the Kingdom of God with him (Jesus) that very day."
JJ:
There's no evidence that the thief repented or made any change. He did not even profess any belief. Instead he merely asked Jesus to remember him. Maybe the guy was a thief to feed his family, or maybe he was even a hero like Robin Hood.
We do not know the details here, but a person does not have to be perfect to enter the paradise of God. Most of the inhabitants there stole something when they were upon the earth and will make amends in a future life.
Keith:
"I am not taking issue with the law of correspondence as a tool to unearth truth. I am taking issue with the way it has been applied to stereotype Christian Fundamentalists."
JJ:
I'm not talking about stereotypes of people, but attempting to examine various belief systems using the Law of Correspondences. Any belief, even one imagined, is suitable fodder for the test of this law.
Question:
Many people new age and old age believe that the people on this planet at this present time are the most evil bunch in history. Do you believe this to be true? Is the righteousness of the people on this planet increasing or decreasing?
Copyright 2000 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved