Gathering 2005 Sun Valley, Part 32

2009-12-23 09:39:00

JJ:  Any more questions? We've got a few more minutes. Let's take another question from a guy here. I don't know if we've got time to fully cover it, but we'll take a stab at it. This is a fairly new member of the Keys, and he has come across something that somebody said that just rubbed him the wrong way. Again, we learn a lot more from people who have a problem with us than the people who say, "Hey, I agree with everything you say." We like those people too, you know. Don't run away if you agree with us.

Reading from a Keys post, JJ continues with:

"'After reading over the past few weeks' worth of posts, I can't help but notice the trump cards that get played on this list. For instance, does soul contact really mean that everybody agrees on every issue, and therefore if someone disagrees with a soul contactee they must be wrong? If so, then the way for me to win any argument around here is to be the first to claim soul contact.'

"'And if anyone dares question me, I play the ultimate trump, the mailed fist in a velvet glove, leaving my opponent crushed and condemned and myself exalted. It goes like this: I forgive you of your illusions! The moral high ground is now mine, do you hear me? ALL MINE!! MuuHaaHaaHaaHaaaaaaa!'

At least the guy's got a sense of humor.

Okay, so first of all, I don't think I have ever claimed to be right because of soul contact, in any argument with anybody. In other words, it almost makes it sounds like we're saying, "Well, this is right because I got soul contact on it, so don't argue with me because... I got the soul contact, man! My soul tells me it's right; therefore, you're just wrong to even argue with me."

What we tell people on the list is this: We throw this teaching out there; now it's your responsibility to contact your own soul and verify whether it's right or wrong. Now, when you verify whether it's right or wrong, truth or error, you may think you have soul contact but not have it, and you may be verifying error to be truth. You may have true soul contact and you may find out something to be true. And you may find out I'm wrong and you're right or you're wrong and I'm right. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that you take the teaching and verify it with your own soul. And that's a principle that I've always taught. I think some other member must have said something in a way that gave him the impression that we have an opposite approach to that.


Audience:  "But JJ, there are absolutes in the universe and there is a truth. What's true is true and nothing else is true. And the people who don't hear truth-- like when we read The Immortal we all went, "Oh my gosh! There's so much truth and light in that!" But there are people who read that and don't hear or know or feel anything."

JJ:  Right. But when somebody comes along and they take what we have that we think is truth and they don't think it's true, that's their right to do that. And they could be right and we could be wrong. Now, let's suppose, though, that's from a universal point of view. Let's suppose you have proven something to yourself to be true. You know that something is true, like, say, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You've pretty much formulated it in your mind, verified it with your soul, and you are absolutely sure that is correct. Then John comes along here and he says, "No. I don't think that's right." And Lorraine says, "Well, check with your soul." So John checks with his soul, and according to the highest he can see through checking with his soul: "Yeah, I'm right and you're wrong. There's not an equal reaction for every action." You may then get in a big argument. Lorraine could say, "Well, I've checked with my soul" and John says, "Well, I checked with my soul." You wind up a big argument as to whose soul is correct.

Well, the truth is that the soul is always correct, but not all of us tap in to the soul. Sometimes two people think they have tapped in to the soul and neither one of them has. What have they tapped in to? Normally, they tap in to the lower astral body, which governs the emotional feeling. If people have a strong emotional feeling around something, they will be most absolutely sure they are right. Oftentimes one person will have soul contact and the other one will not, and in this case they will generally not agree.

Because one person is seeing through the soul; the other one isn't. But in the times where the two have soul contact, they will see eye to eye in principle. They may express it a little differently. Sometimes they express it differently enough that they think they don't agree, on the personality level. But you go back to the principle that they both believe in. If they both have obtained soul contact on a principle -- and the soul speaks in the language of principles -- then they will see eye to eye.


Audience:  "Well that leads us back to the very same thing the guy was saying, though. If John is sure that he's got soul contact and I'm sure that I've got soul contact, and I'm sure that the law I believe is true IS true, then I know that he doesn't have soul contact. Aren't I sitting there with my scepter saying, 'You're wrong'?"

JJ:  Well, you could if you want to, but if that happens to me, what I do is I say, "John, you've got to go by the highest you know. If you believe that every action doesn't produce an equal reaction, well go for it if that's your highest belief." But what I tell them to do is go by the highest they can discern. And if the highest you can discern is what I know is wrong, that's still where he is and that's what he's got to go with. Now, where we go wrong is when we say, "John, you've got to change your mind on this. You know, you're all screwed up." (audience laughter) You don't tell him that because that's just going to make him mad. Like this guy is rubbed a little bit the wrong way somebody in the group. It gives him the impression that he's got to go along with us because we've got soul contact.


Audience:  "Even if you've got soul contact, your soul isn't the highest thing in creation. So while there may be absolute truths out there in creation, I think it's a very dangerous thing. People should be spelling their truths with a small 't' and not a capital 'T'. Because your truth will change. If you look at something like Newtonian mechanics -- those laws that Newton came up with mathematically describe almost every motion in the universe for a large body. Boy, they just break down when it comes down to quantum mechanics and the internal workings of an atom. There's another level there, another level of truth. Because they're both true, just like things are both -- is light a wave or is it a particle? They're both true. And you derive different useful applications for viewing from one perspective or the other and apply them in different situations where they work. But they're both true."

JJ:  But what Newton did discover, what he perceived to work, still works. But what Einstein discovered was that there are other things that Newton wasn't looking for. Einstein was looking at a little bit higher level and he found additional material, additional pieces to the puzzle. But the pieces Newton found still work and were still pieces.


Audience:  "It's just like on this planet we sort of operate by a certain standard of operating rules of reality. But hey, there are people who have walked on water, put their hands through walls and stuff. I mean, they defy the laws of matter."

JJ:  Defy laws as we understand them. But we just don't understand them completely.


Audience:  "Yes, exactly."

Audience:  "But the point is, if I think I'm right and I think John is all screwed up, you have to recognize that each person doesn't knowingly choose that which is wrong or in error. John is choosing the highest he knows and maybe he's seeing an angle I'm not seeing or maybe I don't understand him completely. But I've got to let him go with the highest he knows. So what I tell a person in that circumstance-- if he wants to have an argument I'll argue with him, but when the argument is over I say, 'Well, you've got to go with the highest you know. If I'm right, you'll eventually discover it. If you're right, I'll eventually discover you're right... IF we continue to go with the highest that we know.'"

Audience:  "I was going to say that it's like what you say in The Immortal, that truth is not relative but man's perception of truth is relative. There was a point in my life when I could have read The Immortal and just laughed and been like, 'Yeah, right.' But even if you do have soul contact, your soul is only going to tell you what you need to know at that point in time. It knows that, basically, growth is such a delicate process. It's like baking a cake or something. If it's not done correctly, it's not going to work. You're only going to get what it thinks you need to get."


JJ:  Yeah. You know, it's really important that we realize this and that we're tolerant of other people's beliefs. Almost all horrors are created by intolerance -- the Crusades and all these things. Most of the wars that have been fought-- there is a handful that maybe one side has been on a side that they had to fight the war, like World War II against Hitler, that had to be fought. But many wars are fought by both sides that are wrong and both sides that are intolerant of each other, and the winner gets to impose his belief system on the other. Whether that belief system is right or wrong, it doesn't matter.

It's like when conquistadors came to the Americas, they figured these Indians were just a bunch of savages and, by George, they needed to get the blood of Christ in their system immediately. They were commanded to bow down to the Virgin Mary or the cross, or be killed. And a lot of them became Christians, but not by their own choosing. But after a few generations, Central America is now dominated by Catholics, just because of their forefathers' being forced to bow down to the cross.

So we cannot allow an ounce of this coercion within our system. The most you can coerce anyone and stay in the light is by arguing. It's fine to have a few arguments where you reason together, maybe even have a little conflict, go back and forth. Then after you've gone back and forth, recognize the person's sovereignty over his own opinion. Recognize his sovereignty and say, "I respect your sovereignty. We don't agree, but I respect you, and I respect the fact that you're following the highest you know."

Now, Wayne and I have probably argued as much as anybody. Wayne looks for things to argue with me about. He loves a good argument, yet we're the best of friends. But we recognize each other's sovereignty. We recognize each other's intelligence. Neither one of us tries to impose our opposing beliefs upon the other guy. I don't think I've ever tried to do that with you, Wayne, have I?

Wayne:  "Yes you have! There you are, right now!"

Audience:  Laughter.


JJ:  (Laughs) That's right. Did anybody -- where's that rope we brought to tie Wayne up with?

Audience:  You asked, JJ.

JJ:  Yeah, I did. I asked for it. I ought to know Wayne better than that by now.

Audience:  Laughter.


Audience:  "I have a question. How do you respond when somebody says, "Who do you think your are?" I mean, you have such wonderful comebacks. How do you respond to that?"

JJ:  I'll give you one of my best responses to that. I was telling somebody, I don't remember if it was a group or an individual, about this. When I was younger and I was in the Mormon Church, I uncovered a lot of metaphysical philosophy and deeper understanding of various scriptures, and I didn't have anybody to share it with. Nobody in the church wants to learn anything except just really standard stuff like -- "How can I obey the Sabbath more purely?" You know, that type of thing -- a really boring thing to think about as far as I'm concerned. But I was always searching for more exciting things to discover. I would give people test questions -- test them out and ask them questions -- and they would always give the wrong answers, so I could never find anybody...except for Wayne. I could always talk to Wayne about anything.

But he lived in Boise and I lived in New Plymouth at the time. My nephew Curtis moved into town and I asked him a test question and he answered in a way that showed that he was a seeker, so I started sharing with him. Then I started sharing with him a doctrine or a teaching that goes contrary to what the modern-day "prophet" teaches. The church teaches that after you die there are three kingdoms to go to. The telestial is like the glory of the stars, the terrestrial like the glory of the moon, and the celestial like the glory of the sun.

They teach that once you get into one of these kingdoms, you're just stuck there for all eternity. Well, I wrote a little paper showing that that's not true, that there is progression. It's not only taught in the scriptures, but it was taught by Joseph Smith himself, taught in the Mormon scriptures and indicated in the biblical scriptures. So I wrote up this little paper and I gave it to him, and he found it pretty interesting. Then he went to see a friend of his who was a staunch Mormon and he shared that with him, and they had some questions to ask me. They both called me up on the phone -- they were on two different phones there and I was talking to them both at the same time. As I was explaining something to them, they said, "Well, that doesn't agree with the prophet. Who do you think you are? Do you think you're smarter than the prophet?!"

I said, "Yes."

Audience:  Laughter.


JJ:  And there was a silence there. I mean, they never expected that answer. "Yeah, I'm smarter than the prophet." (laughs) The answer just blew them away -- I mean, they were stunned. There was about ten seconds where they just didn't know how to respond. They'd never heard anybody say that before. Because in the church, if you even think such a thing it's like you're going to go to outer darkness after you die -- not the three kingdoms but reign with the devil and his angels. (laughs)

Curtis' friend who was the staunch Mormon, was totally turned off by me. But that really impressed Curtis when I told him I thought I was smarter than the prophet. I said, "Yeah, the prophet's wrong on this." (exasperated sounds) The staunch Mormon guy, he was really turned off by everything I said. But when I told Curtis those two things -- that I was smarter than the prophet and the prophet was wrong -- he started mulling those things over and started thinking, "Well, maybe the prophet could be wrong. Hmm. I never thought of that before." When you're in a powerful religion and you're brainwashed, you just don't think of that. You just don't even consider that the prophet could be wrong. It's not something that enters anybody's head.

But when it entered Curtis's head, unlike his friend, he started meditating on that. "Well, if the prophet's wrong on this, what else could be wrong on?" And it led him in all kinds of different directions after that.

Audience:  "Yeah, but how did you handle the 'who do you think you are?'"


JJ:  When they said, "Who do you think you are? Do you think you're smarter than the prophet?" I said, "Yes." The temptation is to say, "Well I'm not really smarter than anybody. Everybody's just as smart as everybody else." But see, I answered in a way that really made an impact on him. I said, "Yes, I'm smarter than the prophet."

Audience:  "So that answered the second question. To the first question, 'who do you think you are?' you should just go, 'Well, who do you think I am?' That would be a good comeback."


JJ:  Well, he asked me who did I think I was because if I was right, then I was smarter than the prophet -- I knew something the prophet didn't know.

Audience:  "Let's say he didn't ask the second question but just stated the first question."


JJ:  Well, "who do you think you are?" is always associated with something. When somebody comes and asks you that question, it's because you've brought something up. You say, "I have soul contact," and they ask, "Well, who do you think you are that you think you can have soul contact?" See, you've brought something up that enters their mind in such a way that it disturbs them.

Audience:  "So you counter them by forcefully making your point even more?"


JJ:  Yeah. It's like, the gal I was married to before Artie, there was a word; it was "control." Whenever I said the word "control" she would just clam up and act really strange on me. She just didn't like that word. So do you know what I did? I said, "Control! Control! Control!" (laughs) I kept saying that to her over and over, and pretty soon it didn't bother her anymore because I was saying it so much. (chuckles) But it must have been a past life or something, because that word really bugged her. It didn't matter how innocently it was worded, she just got her dander up when that word was stated.

So when "who do you think you are?" comes up, I go the opposite direction they expect me to go. I try to make an impact on their minds. Well, I can think I'm anybody I want. Why can't I? Turn it around to them.

Okay well, I appreciate your time. We're going to take a break till about 2:30 and meet back here.