1999-8-9 08:29:00
CW, I'm glad to see you posting writings that seem to be written just for this list rather than sterile mass market variety. The postings made in response seem to be getting much more favorable as a result.
However, any comments you have made about my writings have been 100% in opposition and disagreement. I find it interesting that you and some others who are into the no polarity consciousness should become so extremely polarized always in opposition to my words. In attempting to rise above or balance the polarities one would think a seeker could find some positive as well as negative in my teachings.
Now Zina often disagreed with me but was fair-minded enough to comment on my teachings that registered with her in a positive way.
Saul and Rob already have made fine comments on your post on levels of meditation, but I will try and add a few things here.
CW:
"Meditation is the art of being everything and doing nothing ..."
JJ:
This is one of the many "objectives" possible in meditation, but only one.
CW:
"From my own experience, to enter the formless is to move beyond my own awareness of heart beat, breath, sound, sight. An observer commented how she perceived that I viewed the world through sightless eyes (yes, they were open) and the scariest thing for me was the first few times I dissolved into this space, there was a reflex jerk from my body which brought me back, because I became aware that I could not feel my breathing or my heart beat and so I moved beyond the body's fear of death ..."
JJ
This experience does not prove you entered into the formless worlds. It sounds like you went to the astral which still has much form to view as you continued to "see".
CW
"True Meditation has no desired result. To desire a result, one must ask what the need is, and who is the one in need (and thus lacking)?"
JJ
Are we talking about a dogmatic "one true meditation here?" I don't think most of the group will fall for this idea which you do not seem to believe in yourself for you said: "Meditation is the art of being everything and doing nothing ..."
It sounds like your objective in meditations is "being everything and doing nothing ..."
That doesn't turn me on but if that is your personal objective it is fine with me. It sounds like you desire "not to be" rather than "to become."
CW:
"If there is a result desired, the meditation is conditional... and thus is deemed to be either successful or unsuccessful ... this is more correctly defined as mesmerism ... as it is conditional, polarities exist .... self judgment (success/failure) is the only outcome ..."
JJ
This is a pretty far out statement. Hypnotism (or mesmerism as you call it here) is created through a dimming of the conscious mind allowing an outside agent to control the subject by direct suggestion to the subconscious which is now in control. In any meditation I do or teach consciousness and awareness is increased not decreased. This is the opposite of hypnosis. So far I do not know anyone who has hypnotized through postings on the internet because you have to use your conscious mind to read and register them.
CW:
"Any meditation that is used to obtain an outcome is manipulation ... firstly of self ... and if the expectation is also of another person, then the manipulation is of the other also ... and the deeper knower of the individual will set up a Karmic reaction."
JJ
You use the word manipulation as one would think of a used car salesman using immoral methods to sell a car to innocent victims. On the other hand, there is positive manipulation as well as negative.
Do you have a job CW? Do you make money? Then you have manipulated people and events so you have created a means of drawing money from other people so you can buy the computer you work on as well as all things we need for a happy life.
Do you drive a car? Then you manipulate it through traffic and if some school kid gets in your way you try and manipulate him out of the way so he doesn't get run over.
Manipulation where there is no deception or infringement of free will is not a bad thing. Rick and I (and others) have done a lot of manipulating to get people to join this list. We have not infringed on free will but have tried dangling the carrot of interesting teachings, interesting group, acceptance and love. I'd say that is a powerful manipulating force. It even manipulated you on to the list.
To use meditation to manipulate forces, events and situations toward a good end is not a bad thing and any karma produced would be positive not negative.
CW
"True meditation cannot have any levels ..."
JJ
In my last post I gave examples of four levels, but let's keep it simple with two samples.
Jim meditates by letting his mind go blank and lets his consciousness diminish. Jack meditates on a seed thought and his consciousness is raised in awareness. Both of these levels have their purposes, but they are definitely two different levels, wouldn't you say? Level according to my use here is defined in my dictionary as "A natural or proper position, place, or stage."
CW:
"Those who, because of unseen evolution beyond ego who feel they are not successful will judge that they are failures ... without understanding that there is a deeper meaning to their perceived lack of success ... maybe they have moved beyond the need for delusion."
JJ
You seem to be saying that if we progress "beyond the need for delusion" that we will no longer attempt anything where success or failure can be the result. Well your goal in meditation according to your own words " being everything and doing nothing ..." Many people who have this as a goal in meditation have failed at this objective so you seem to be unable to practice what you preach here.
You have also been making posts in a variety of attempts to be "successful" at manipulating people toward your teachings - sometimes coming close to infringing on free will. In this you have had some success and some failures. My point is that even a highly evolved being such as you has not escaped the polarities and is subject to success and failure. If we cannot demonstrate the greater realities of no polarities then why spend a lot of time on what we cannot do? Let us begin with where we are on this great journey and the formless worlds will come along soon enough.
CW:
"And so we enter the world of boundaries and separation as the continuum of awareness is cut up into little boxes which can be set as goals by which we can judge ourselves successful or failure."
JJ
I judge myself as success or failure all the time and it works for me. It also worked for Jesus, Buddha, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill and Bill Gates (90 Billion dollars worth for BG) and others.
I would say that those who are unwilling to make such a judgment are deluded and will never have great success in the real world.
Next CW quotes the following from my writings:
"The first is the physical. In this world we use the power of meditation through the power of paying Attention. This can be done through paying attention to a physical teacher, speaker or book, to gazing into a crystal ball or flame. As we meditate on the physical plane the mind and heart may be stimulated to bring forth images or ideas that will assist us. If nothing else meditation on the physical level will help focus us on the real that exists here so we do not turn into impractical dreamers."
To which he replied:
"In other words ... Self Hypnosis ... which is valid to a point if the only person involved is one's self ... meditation is not a practice ... it is a state of being ..."
JJ
So you are saying that even reading a book can be hypnosis? Remember hypnosis is the diminishing of consciousness. Reading, active listening to a teacher or lecture will increase consciousness. There can be a little self hypnosis in looking into a flame or crystal ball however.
Consciousness is a state of being. Meditation is a method of reaching various levels of being.
CW:
"The female ...is generally, less open and receptive because of her inherent (unconscious) creative need ..."
JJ
There are two energies in the universe. Giving energies that we call male and receiving energies that we have named female. I believe it would be difficult to argue this point.
CW:
"Within my own groups and many others I have attended, I have found that initially it is easier for males to reach deeper levels of meditation more quickly than it is for females because they are less likely to be desirous of an outcome. Where an outcome is desired, the female is more easily mesmerized or self hypnotized than the male ..."
JJ
My experience is that when a person has a desired outcome that he or she is much more difficult to hypnotize. I am a person who desires outcomes and I cannot be hypnotized and all others on my wavelength I know (on this outcome idea) cannot be hypnotized.
CW:
"HOW can the formless have several levels ...???"
JJ
Through a difference of vibration and different levels of the principle of identification.
CW
"Ideas belong to the Mind ..."
JJ
The mind itself is an idea made manifest, but ideas still were in existence when there were no minds as we understand the term.
CW:
"He who surrenders fully into the Self enters the formless worlds without 'seed thoughts' and without expectation."
JJ
This is a possibility, but CW was saying this in opposition to my statement that we plant seed thoughts in the formless worlds. Generally meditation without seed thoughts takes you to the astral world.
CW:
"Inspired ideas come unbidden from the formless ... to throw 'seed thoughts' into the formless is to place an expectation and thus make the surrender to the formless a form of ego manipulation."
JJ
I have come up with a lot of ideas in my life, but none of them have come unbidden. Unexpected at times, but not unbidden. All the inspired ones have come from my planting seed thoughts in the formless worlds and expecting an answer which I always receive sooner or later. I do not consider this an ego manipulation.
CW:
Atman cannot be achieved through attention...
JJ
Atman, the highest concept of self consciousness exists in the second formless world and without our putting attention on the path we will not get there let alone the realms below this.
Let me finish by quoting a fine piece of poetry from CW:
Will you cross to reach out to a future
filled with love, joy, fun,
laughter and happiness?
Can you love; can you allow miracles?
In this moment will you acknowledge your vastness -
Will you dare to dream, vision and create a brave new world
Filled with the real meaning of Love,
with it's infinite depth of feeling,
caring and respect, sharing and trust?"
Fine words CW. We invite you to join with us in a positive way in heading in this direction.
Copyright 1999 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved