2009-9-6 05:14:00
In commenting on my last post Larry Kennon quoted me thus:
"We have never in history had a true Democracy so no one can say with a sure knowledge as to what the result would be."
Then he stated:
"The problem I have with this argument is that it seems to be saying that one cannot derive principles from less than pure or perfect examples. This is exactly the same argument that many Communists and Socialists use."
JJ:
This makes no sense as we have had every brand of communism by authoritarian rule be given ample power to prove themselves. 100% of the Soviet Union was under communist rule as well as China, North Korea, Cuba, Cambodia under Pol Pot, etc. The results of all have been similar, varying only by degrees.
The closest thing we have seen to a democracy was not a nation but the city-state of Athens with a population of about 250,000. Of this number only 30,000 were the elite citizens who had the right to vote. Of these only about 4000-5000 participated in the democratic process. This is why I call Athens a representative Democracy rather than a pure Democracy because the voting of the 5000 supposedly represented well being of the whole. It matters not that the voters were not elected, the result of their vote created law and justice just as our elected representatives do today.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Athens
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekdemocracy_03.shtml
Thus Athens which was far from a pure Democracy was not anything close to matching the examples of communism in purity which forced every citizen to vote party line and totally controlled several nations.
Now, even though Athens was far from a pure democracy, it is probably the best example in history and instead of yielding tyranny and poverty there was more freedom there than in other parts of the world and more prosperity. The average wage was about three times that of those of foreign countries.
Nearby Sparta was ruled with a non democratic iron hand and consequently the lights and philosophers of the age lived in Athens. Ironically some of the intelligentsia, including Socrates, criticized the government of Athens and praised Sparta, but where did they choose to live? Athens. It reminds me of some in the USA who praise Cuba and Venezuela but prefer to live here even though they constantly criticize America.
The partial democracy of Athens did not lead to any tyranny of the majority, especially when considering the lower overall consciousness of that age. Instead, it lead to a gathering of lights, prosperity and greater freedom. Yes, they had slaves, but so did the rest of the world at that time. But in Athens the slaves were much freer than some other places and even owned property.
There have been attempts at democracy by small groups of people but nothing close to a real working democracy, open to the whole of the populace, has ever surfaced in recorded history.
The United States, as a democratic elected representative republic, is probably the closest thing to it presently on the planet. The problem now is, as I pointed out earlier with my seven points, is that the will of the people is not represented.
Thomas Jefferson is often pointed out as being against democracy. To make their point this quote is often given out in argument:
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49."
The only problem is that Jefferson never said this. It is just one of those quotes in wide circulation that are falsely attributed.
For verification see:
http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Democracy_is_nothing_more_than_mob_rule http://www.conservapedia.com/Thomas_Jefferson
The quote is not only untrue but it makes no sense. You only have two types of rule possible. The first is majority rule, or some type of democratic rule, and the second is minority rule which is accomplished trough all kinds of authoritarian methods.
Currently we have a minority rule where the will of around 30% take away the rights of the other 70%.
Where would you rather live? In a country where 30% of the people are represented or 51% or more?
I'd go for the 51% or more.
Here are a few quotes revealing what Jefferson really thought of democracy.
"The will of the people [...] is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object." (Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801. [Memorial Edition] ME 10:236)
"The measures of the fair majority [...] ought always to be respected." (Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:397)
"I subscribe to the principle, that the will of the majority honestly expressed should give law." (Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1793. ME 1:332)
"Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them." (Thomas Jefferson to Annapolis Citizens, 1809. ME 16:337)
"This [...] [is] a country where the will of the majority is the law, and ought to be the law."
(Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:85)
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