"Hmmm, it is hard to think up qualifying scenarios that would truly capture the difficulty of such a renunciation."
"Like say...following your soul knowing that it will inevitably result in excommunication from your church, which in turn will cause a spouse to turn their back on you, which in turn will result in the loss of contact with your eight (seven - JJ) very young children whom you deeply love and want to help raise and support? That qualify? I have four kids and a loving spouse and I can only begin to fathom and sense the resulting pain and anguish. It's too much to think about for a long period of time. Thank God, my wife is reasonable and understanding! Unimaginable! Hmmm...can't think of anyone off-hand who has had to go through such a thing to fulfill a mission for the BOL and pass an initiation? Just speculation, but such a scenario has always seemed like a very qualified renunciation to me. God bless anyone who could endure such an ordeal. Brings tears to my eyes."
I appreciate the contemplative discussion as of late, and I appreciate Adam's empathy here.
When I faced excommunication I figured it would cost me my wife and kids. It did not happen as quickly as I supposed but later when another path was revealed to me I knew for sure that if I followed my soul that I would suffer this loss.
There's not a day goes by that I wish I could have been with my kids during their tender years and guided them, not only toward greater light but just normal life like social skills, playing ball and building their confidence. Instead I had a continual fight with my ex-wife who did everything in her power to prevent me from seeing them or having any meaningful dialog with them. After I did see them she interrogated them to see if I had poisoned their minds with my teachings. This made these fragile souls terrified of having any meaningful dialog with me. I could write so much more but this will have to suffice for now.
"First, carefully re-read what JJ said above, quoted here: 'I have written nothing that would relate an experience related to the Fourth Initiation.'
"Since we know of the life details you mention (because he has written of them) ... that can't be it."
Very astute observation Dan. As harrowing as it was to sacrifice my family this was not my great renunciation for the Fourth Initiation.
As difficult as this was I could see that certain decisions had to be made for the greater good and had faith that in the end the justice and fairness of God would prevail.
In the Great Renunciation the disciple can see no hope that this will be the case.
Take Abraham for example. God promised him that he would have a great posterity through his only son, yet commanded him to slay Isaac. The slaying of his son was bad enough but an even more difficult problem was that it appeared God's very promise would be broken and if you cannot have faith in God then what do you have?
The Christ saw the greater plan, but the disciple Jesus wanted more than anything else to build the kingdom of God. He was told no -- that he would have to sacrifice his life instead. He had to give up his greatest dream to serve God to pass the Fourth [Initiation].
My guess is that he even received a promise that he would be an instrument in building the kingdom and it appeared that God was breaking his promise through leading him to the crucifixion.
Was this one reason why he said to God: "Why have you forsaken me?"
Before reaching the Great Renunciation the disciple will think he has sacrificed everything several times but when the Fourth [Initiation] occurs he will discover that his attachments reach deeper than he ever imagined. He never saw himself having to give up such attachments for they seemed so benevolent in nature.
When the disciple passes the third he can be trusted by the brotherhood to see through illusions as they present themselves. When he passes the Fourth [Initiation] the can be trusted to not get sidetracked by the pull of an attachment, however good, and thus moves on to work on the Fifth Initiation of where he brings down a revelation from higher planes to initiate a work that will benefit mankind for a thousand years or more.
"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."
(Doctrine & Covenants 122:7)
Word of the Day
Cynosure -- noun: something that strongly attracts attention and admiration Example: But the real cynosure of the occasion last August was the smiling, snowy-haired man who is the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral he attends, the 42nd president of the United States, Bill Clinton.
The Mystery Of Christ & His Coming
Who & What Is An Initiate?
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