2007-10-29 13:47:00
Note: This "Reader" with whom I am having dialog believes that Christ is here upon the earth already and living in Utah. He says that he cannot tell us who he is but if we ask God his identity will be revealed.
In response to this teaching I wrote:
"'Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.'
"'Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert (Utah); go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers (not available to the masses); believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.' (Matt 24:23-27)"
JJ:
This reader's Messiah seems to fit this scripture very closely. He is in the desert of Utah (land of Deseret -- Utah was originally called the land of Deseret) and also in some secret chamber where neither you or I have access unless secret knowledge is obtained.
The only area that this Messiah does not fit in with the scripture is that he shows no signs or wonders, but that is pretty difficult for a Messiah in a secret chamber to do, except for those who are also in the same said chamber.
To the above the Reader responds:
"JJ what you are quoting you are quoting out of context. The context of that chapter Matt. 24 is there are many false Christ's and one true one...
"Go find the true one."
JJ:
I figured you would think it was out of context but I didn't want to give an exegeses on the whole chapter or I would have wearied the readers with a whole treatise.
Reader:
"There is a time from AD 0 to 1820 yes you should not look for Christ in the secret chambers...
"But after the marker as the 'light of the morning cometh out of the east' after the light of.
"Revelation that Joseph smith started is like the dawn of a new day...."
JJ:
Nowhere does it say that the scripture does not apply after 1820. There is no indication that the light out of the east is Joseph Smith. He was a light from the West, not the East. A light out of the East would indicate an eastern type philosophy.
Nowhere does it say to discount the prophesy after a certain time.
Think of it. There have been many false Christs in our history but I can't think of any that tell us to go to the desert or the secret chambers to find him -- not until now.
This person's admonitions fit the scripture more than any time in history. He wants us to go to the land of Deseret (Utah) and find Christ in the secret chamber. The fact that his group fulfills the prophecy better than any time in history indicates something may come of his teaching and it needs to be confronted.
You seem to think my problem is that I do not think that Christ could come among us as a regular mortal but this is not the problem.
I think that Christ could come among us again in a number of different ways. He could have been born again as a babe and could be living and teaching in Utah, Iowa or London.
So why do I have a problem with this person's teachings?
The problem is not that Christ could be here in the flesh among us but in the exclusive way he is presented that corresponds to the warning given in the scriptures.
The problem is that when a true teacher, prophet or servant is sent among us that he does not start his mission by his spokespeople or himself declaring that he is a messiah or some great one and that we should listen to him because of who he is rather than what he says or does.
No great teacher has started his work be merely being declared a messiah or great teacher but instead relies on the two witnesses that always accompany and testify to such a one. Those two witnesses are his words and his works.
The witnesses to Christ when he came 2000 years ago was not a declaration that he was the Messiah, but his words and his works which testified of him.
There is no record of him plainly telling the people who he was before the crucifixion. Even Peter had to find out by revelation rather than being told by Jesus. There were several occasions that the Jews complained that he did not clearly tell them who he was.
For instance:
"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." (John 10:24)
"And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying, Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:" (Luke 22:66-67)
Instead of going around telling people to follow him because he was the Christ he told his apostles (after Peter received it by revelation) the following:
"Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." (Matt 16:20)
This guy has it backwards from the way a true servant works. He says we should first find out who and where the man is and then check out his words and works, if any. Hence we have the doctrine of seeking the Christ in the desert or the secret chambers.
Instead of looking for Christ the man, the One Mighty and Strong, the Spokesman etc because of some unreliable claim we should look for great words and works. These are the true two witnesses of any bearer or truth.
If any man or his followers want to point us to Christ or his servants then they must point us to their words and works.
Thus the question we must ask anyone with such a claim is this: Where are the words and works that testify of Christ being in Utah?
Global Warming Enlightenment
"The whole process is a swindle," says Dr Vincent Gray. "The IPCC from the beginning was given the licence to use whatever methods would be necessary to provide 'evidence' that carbon dioxide increases are harming the climate, even if this involves manipulation of dubious data and using peoples' opinions instead of science to 'prove' their case.
"The disappearance of the IPCC in disgrace is not only desirable but inevitable," says Gray, a member of the UN IPCC Expert Reviewers Panel since its inception. "The world will slowly realise that the 'predictions' emanating from the IPCC will not happen. The absence of any 'global warming' for the past eight years is just the beginning. Sooner or later all of us will come to realise that this organisation, and the thinking behind it, is phony, says Gray, who shares a Nobel as one of IPCC's '2000 scientists.' Unfortunately severe economic damage is likely to be done by its influence before that happens."
http://nzclimatescience.net/index.php
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