Fundamental Argument

Sun  Sep 9, 2007  4:25 am

I've been having an interesting exchange with a Mormon fundamentalist on Sterling and Susan's list. Thought I would share this with you.

First Post

JJ:

Reason and common sense is the starting place and when they take you as far as they can then one can seek through God. It is when you "lack wisdom" that you are expected to seek help.

Reader:

"They only draw a person away from the source of truth and into the confusion of their darkened minds - darkened because they are relying on man instead of the Spirit of God."

JJ:

When has true reason and common sense ever led anyone to a darkened mind? If reason and common sense are bad then the prophets are all imposters because they all used it. The reasoning of Jesus was so powerful that the authorities were afraid to ask him any more questions. Joseph Smith used a lot of reason and common sense.

"Great God! Where is common sense and reason? Is there none on the earth?" exclaimed a somewhat frustrated Joseph Smith as he was trying to drill the simplest logic into the minds of the saints. (See Documentary History of the Church Vol 5:297)

Reader:

"I'm not interested in writings that are in harmony with man's reason and common sense - I want writings in harmony with God's truths."

JJ:

If the reasoning and common sense is sound then they will be the same. Anything that is true will be in harmony with reason and that which is not true will have flaws revealed by reason.

Reader:

"And since His ways are not our ways, nor His thoughts our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9) then man's reasonings are generally not the same as God's truths. Again, by the Spirit we will know the truth of all things."

JJ:

The scripture doesn't mention reasoning.

This scripture is a continual excuse for believers to remain mentally lazy, but such laziness is contrary to them.

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."  (2 Tim 1:7)

"And he (Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." (Acts 18:4)

Sure, God's ways are higher than ours, but a calculus teacher also knows math that I do not. This does not mean that I drop the use of reason.

Reader:

"Since you don't know me, I'll have to say candidly that I'm a very open person to new ideas - yet all new thoughts are weighed against the Spirit within and the truths I already know from that Spirit. Notice, I said truths - not traditions or religious precepts of any religion, unless they also are truths."

JJ:

Sounds good as long as you are dealing with the spirit and not your emotional desires.

Reader:

"It is just as unwise to reject a truth because it is popular as it is to accept a truth because it is not. There are some truths that are popular - such as God is love. or the Truth sets you free. And there are many damning falsehoods that pretend to be truth and are popular as well. Again, by the Spirit we are able to discern what is of God or not."

JJ:

Yes, as long as you do all you can do first as illustrated by this scripture:

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that YOU MUST STUDY IT OUT IN YOUR MIND; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (D&C 9:7-8)

We are not just given higher knowledge with no effort but we must study things out with all the faculties at our disposal.

Second Post

JJ:

Before I respond to your post let me say this. You seem to be operating on the assumption that I am against seeking knowledge and answers through the spirit. I do not know where you get such a fallacious idea and why you are attempting to pass this along in your postings as true. Either you very sloppily read my posts or you want to outright project a deceptive view of my thinking and teaching.

Reader:

"You said that since not all people feel the Spirit, or don't feel it enough, or don't feel it accurately then it is okay to turn to man's help. Is this what God says? Where? His plan is for us to learn to connect directly with Him by the Spirit. He knows not all can do it perfectly, instantly and consistently at first. That is not a reason to abandon the plan, His plan."

JJ:

First you keep talking about God's Plan as if you have some idea of what it is. Have you received some revelation on the matter because the phrase "God's plan" is found nowhere in the scriptures and whatever it is, is not clearly laid out. That is why there are hundreds of religions with hundreds of ideas of what the plan may be.

Secondly I am not advocating abandoning anything given out about the plan. Why do you misrepresent me so? You are arguing with a straw man here.

Reader:

"And I disagree - all are able to have reliable contact with the Holy Spirit - otherwise God would not have made it His plan. He would never exclude any children from contacting Him by making the way a way they could not do. Hog wash. All are able. The question is, do they desire it enough to learn how."

JJ:

Again, you are arguing with a straw man. I have never said that God would exclude anyone. However, it should be obvious that God does not just give us answers on a silver platter but one must learn how to avoid all the pitfalls of deception as well as crossing the barriers between matter and spirit.

I would guess that all the people are this list are doing their best to contact the spirit and get the right answers, but obviously most are not succeeding or else we would think as one for we would all get the same answers.

There are many people who will state they are doing their best to contact there spirit but rarely if ever get an answer they can definitely say is from God. Would you just abandon these people and say "since you do not have a direct pipeline to God as I do, the hell with you. You are just too wicked for my company." That is just as silly as it sounds.

All are capable of contacting the spirit, but all know not the path, but all will eventually discover it.

Reader:

"And because some only receive contact every once in a while means they should receive truth another way? Where is that in the scriptures?"

JJ:

Where does it say that I have to learn that 2+2=4 from the scriptures? Obviously most of the truth we learn in life is not from the scriptures. The scriptures only tell us only a handful of truths, important as they are.

Reader:

"So because I only use the phone once a week, I shouldn't use it anymore and instead rely on writing, or some other way of communicating? That is what you are saying. Those who don't receive contact enough should just learn by intellect. In contrast, God's way is for those to desire greater contact - to turn to Him not another's reasonings."

JJ:

So if you see yourself as having direct phone contact with God the how many planets are in the Alpha Centura system?

No answer?

Then it must not work for you the way you say.

Or how about a question about God?

How many spirits are there designated to this earth? When will Jesus show up? Dewey Olsen says the Spirit told him Jesus is already here and has written books. Is Olsen deceived? If so why? What does the Spirit tell you about that?

Reader:

"I don't sense a great deal of confidence in Father's plan for us."

JJ:

I have full confidence in that part of the plan revealed to me. I can't vouch for what your reasoning mind sees as the plan.

Reader:

"If it doesn't work at first then we can abandon it? Where's the human learning curve? So, someone hears wrong - that does not mean they should seek to learn another way. Learn, repent, seek again."

JJ:

All of us have to start out the other way. As it is we first learn about God through teachers in church family etc. This we do through this regular learning method that you despise and reject. You make it sound like you were just born with a direct pipeline and learned nothing through the regular intellect.

If you are honest you will have to admit that you have learned moist of what you know through this other way of using regular study and regular teachers.

Reader:

"I'm really surprised at your audacity to suggest that God's way won't work for most people and so it is good to seek another way."

JJ:

God's way or your way? I don't think you have a clue as to what God's way is.

Reader:

"What Father would prepare for His children in ways that won't work for them?"

JJ:

Is someone saying God has prepared a way that does not work? Who are you arguing with here?

Reader:

"The danger of your distractions is that people will swallow your lies that they can't really rely on the Spirit to guide them so they must turn to other ways to find truth. This leads them away from God and His plan for them."

JJ:

Okay it get it. You do not believe in using your brain or thinking. That explains a lot. What I do not understand is how you think that God can reveal anything to a person who has learned nothing, not even how to read or speak, or did God teach you these things?

Reader:

"Our starting place is seeking God's will. To start somewhere else is to be distracted from the spiritual work we are here to do. If you are not sure if you are hearing the Spirit, then pray for discernment, look at the fruits of the communication (is it of love, peace, kindness, meekness?), or ask for a witness from another on the same path. You stay with the process - not seek out another process."

JJ:

So to learn to read you first sought God's will? If you seek my will you ask me. If you seek God's will you ask God. No one disagrees with this obviously mental conclusion.

So you and I both seek God's will. Why then do we disagree?

Reader:

"Where do the scriptures say that God will only help us after we have run out of all other options? Instead He says to ask, seek, knock. He wants us to rely on Him - not for math problems but for life choices. Do not confuse submission to God for the counterfeit of submitting to anything earthly. No earthly person has the love and knowledge that God has to direct our learning."

JJ:

Let me repeat my answer from my last post to you:

"Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that YOU MUST STUDY IT OUT IN YOUR MIND; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." (D&C 9:7-8)

We are not just given higher knowledge with no effort but we must study things out with all the faculties at our disposal.

Reader:

"And it is about learning - but in God's way. He wants us to be the child learning from the Father and growing up in the Father's ways - not man's reasoning and sense."

JJ:

And what have you learned from the Father in the last week?

Reader:

"You asked for an example of a truth that is not in harmony with man's reasoning and common sense. How about when Christ taught that if you lose yourself you will find yourself. Man's reasoning says this is preposterous. The only way to find yourself is to seek for yourself. That is "good" common sense. Yet, it is not truth."

JJ:

This is in perfect harmony with the reasoning mind. I have taught this to many people who have said they do not have direct contact with God and it is well accepted.

Care to try again?

Reader:

"BTW, isn't it rather arrogant to tell me what I cannot do?"

JJ:

Not at all. There are many things no one can do including you. You can't make 2+2=5 and you can't make a true principle not true.

Reader:

"Especially since I just did it."

JJ:

You didn't do it and you can't do it.

Reader:

"And there are others. Faith is not really reasonable - to trust in something you cannot see?"

JJ:

There is nothing unreasonable about faith as it is taught in the scriptures. Again, I have taught this to many people who say they do not have direct contact with God and it is very well received by the reasoning mind.

Reader:

"Nor is it good common sense. Yet, faith is a true principle and a powerful one, too."

JJ:

True faith is always logical, else why apply it? Do you work against your best interest?

Reader:

"Man's reasoning will always fall short,"

JJ:

And you are a man who seems to be falling short with your own reasoning here. After all your whole post is in your own words and not God's.

Reader:

"Unless it is founded on truth - and all truth comes from God through the Spirit."

JJ:

Well, I guess you could in a round about way say that even 2+2=4 is from God, but it can be discovered with the reasoning mind which is an endowment from God.

Galileo was better at finding the truth of the universe than all the Bible thumping priests put together.

Reader:

"The truths I am seeking are the ones I do not know and need to know. I already know the sun gives light and, in reality, do not need to know if the earth is round."

JJ:

You do need to know the earth is round if you are going to create one someday, else you may make a square or flat earth.

Reader:

"'Silly to check with the Holy Spirit' like that is a demeaning act to ask someone other than ourselves. The pride of self-sufficiency is truly damning, as in stopping our progress. When one is too sure of their own knowledge to ask God, they miss out on greater knowledge."

JJ:

Like I said it is silly to check on obvious things like 2+2=4. If I were God I would be irritated with people who asked me answers to the obvious.

Reader:

"Where do the scriptures say to start with reason and common sense? God didn't say to ask only when you are stumped, seek only when you are lost, and knock only when you have no where else to turn to. He put no such conditions on our desires. Why do we? It is often when men are humbled by their lack of wisdom that they do seek Him. That is one condition we may find ourselves in - and it is not the only condition that we are allowed to approach God for truth."

JJ:

He said to ask when we lack wisdom. Again I use the word silly. It is silly to ask on matters where we do not lack wisdom. My wisdom is sufficient to conclude that 2+2=4 and many other things.

Reader:

"Where reason and common sense are founded on truth they will lead to light."

JJ:

This is what I've been saying and for doing so you why have been vehemently arguing with me? It's difficult to win an argument with a moving target.

Reader:

"Where reason and common sense are founded on man's ideas they are leading away from the true light."

JJ:

Galileo used man's reasoning on truth gleaned outside of the scriptures, or direct revelation, and he found more truth. He did better than those who attempted to rely on God and the scriptures.

In history those who attempted to rely on God and the scriptures have generally been proven wrong. Why? Because they threw out common sense and reasoning that God gave us to use.

Reader:

"Not all reason and common sense is founded on truth."

JJ:

But if you start with a fallacy and use true reasoning you will unravel the fallacy and eventually find the truth. The reasoning mind will not let you accept a beginning fallacy without questioning it. The one who thinks he knows the mind of God will often not question and be as wrong as the Mormons believing their prophet will not lead them astray.

Reader:

"We need the Spirit to guide us to the teachings that are truth. We need to rely on the Spirit and not just someone's reasonings and teachings."

JJ:

We need both.

Reader:

"I think one of our differences is of focus. I want to hold God's truth up and measure all other thoughts by that standard. It appears that you approach it with reason as the standard and that truth must harmonize with it. This works for some reasonings, those founded on truths. But what about natural man reasonings? or others not founded on truth? Then truth would be thrown out since it didn't harmonize with those reasonings."

JJ:

All truth I have received from God is reasonable and logical. You apparently do not believe this. Galileo thought truth had to be logical, but the priests that put him in prison did not. That is the difference between you and me.

Reader:

"Isaiah 55:9: how are thoughts not reasoning? And how does this scripture encourage mental laziness?"

JJ:

I didn't say it encourages mental laziness. I said it is used as an excuse to be mentally lazy. If properly understood it will have the opposite effect.

Reader:

"Are you saying that God is telling us to quit thinking since we can't think like Him yet? I think you are saying that some interpret it that way and they are wrong. If so, then I agree. He is not telling us to quit living or thinking. And yes, He has given us a sound mind that needs to be used and used with the Spirit to guide it and refine it beyond the natural man's ways."

JJ:

Sounds on track.

Reader:

"It almost sounds like you don't trust anyone to discern between the Spirit and emotional desires."

JJ:

Obviously there's a lot of people we can't trust or else we'd be obligated to follow every Mighty and Strong One that comes along.

Reader:

"Ah - so now we get down to what you feel justifies relying on yourself first and foremost and only going to God as a last resort. D&C 9. This scripture has been taken out of context for generations, so much that no one really looks at it clearly."

(He then gives a dissertation on this scripture)

"In light of the context of this section, your point of needing to always study before asking for guidance is not what God meant. We know that because of the many times he invites us to ask, seek, and knock. Asking in faith seems to be the only criteria - not studying it out."

JJ:

So tell me of a revelation you received from God concerning a true principle that took no study or thought on your part?

Reader:

"Do we study as prompted by the Spirit or do we study instead of learning by the Spirit?"

JJ:

You're being black and white here like the priests who went against Galileo. If you are prompted by the Spirit to study in a certain direction, fine. Go with it. But if the Spirit doesn't care one way or another then use your own mind and learn something you enjoy, like Spanish perhaps.

Reader:

"You are right - we are not given higher knowledge with no effort. We differ about what that effort needs to be. You say we need to study with our minds and men's reasonings and common sense first. To me, the effort is in learning to learn by the Spirit and in exercising sufficient faith to do so."

JJ:

First, I do not use other men's reasoning, but my own. You are the one who uses the reasoning of other men. These men may be called prophets, but they are still men and still capable of being wrong or misunderstood.

We both agree on learning as much as possible from the Spirit, but you do not give me any credit in this direction.

Reader:

"I believe in studying things,"

JJ:

Then why are we having this argument? It started because you think I am wrong in presenting the Principles of Discovery which involves studying things.

Reader:

"I'm always learning and listening. But my focus is first on the Spirit and second on men's thoughts which need to match up with the Spirit's teachings."

JJ:

We agree here so why did you even start this argument? My thoughts on this should be obvious.

Reader:

"From this post, it appears that you have decided that most men cannot be Spirit-led and therefore you are justified in replacing such guidance with man's reasonings and common sense."

JJ:

You cannot replace such guidance unless you have it. It is a hard fact that few receive infallible guidance from God. The fact that we cannot even agree on this like-minded list proves it beyond doubt. All have to follow the highest they know and if one doesn't perceive a direct answer from God he has to reply on his best judgement and reason. But if the seeker keeps following the highest he knows then he will eventually arrive at a true knowing through the Spirit.

Reader:

"Paul, who reasoned as he taught (as you quoted him), said: 'For a many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.'"  (Romans 8:14)

"It is our birthright to connect with our Father, if we desire it enough to learn how. And then, through the Spirit, we can learn all things - all truth. This is God's plan."

JJ:

I do not think that God planned this, but it is just the way it eternally is in the scheme of things. Yes, it is our birthright to be sons of God and learn truth directly from the Spirit. Looks like we agree after all.

Now the question to resolve is this. Why do you learn things through your spirit which is conflict with what I and others on this list learn when all of us are sincere?

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
  -- Galileo Galilei (1564 - 1642)

Copyright © 2007 by JJ Dewey, All Rights Reserved