2007-8-2 14:37:00
Dean writes:
"But if I steal something, what cause from that event initiates me been stolen from in the future?"
JJ:
Duh -- maybe it is your act of stealing that originated the effect.
Dean:
"Maybe it is the law of attraction that lowers our vibration into the vicinity of such influences that results in people around us that also steal with a similar consciousness."
JJ:
No. It was a decision made that originated the act of stealing. I won't steal from you no matter what vibration you send forth.
Dean:
"Or if we as a soul decide circumstances through positioning before incarnating to learn a lesson by planning a situation where this would be likely to occur so we can learn what it feels like. However I don't see how it's possible to initiate causes of punishment like you have suggested automatically."
JJ:
Watch the law of gravity work. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The action is a cause; the reaction is an effect.
Yes, the soul between lives can plan as to how he will most effectively deal with the negative (and positive) causes he has placed in action but the cause is not negated until he undergoes the effect.
Dean:
"It's certainly not a proven thing by science how that reaction could be manifested."
JJ:
The general principle is pretty much proven by Newton's third law of gravity. How the details will manifest cannot be exactly proven. For instance, if you throw a thousand pieces of sand on the floor you can generally predict the effect by using the law; but there is no way you can predict exactly how each piece of sand will be positioned. The fact that you cannot predict this does not negate the law. It only shows how complicated the predicting of black and white details is.
Dean:
"Why would one assume this is true, and why would it be a logical assumption of how things work?"
JJ:
Because the law of cause and effect is logical. Because the teachers in the east, Djwhal Khul (DK), Jesus, Paul, John and almost every spiritual teacher in existence teachers the Law of Karma in a similar manner as I do. Many of the teachings I have given out are new, but not this one. This teaching of karma is very basic and almost universal. About the only ones who deviate are a few new age gurus who offer extreme shortcuts and guide their group to either drink Kool-Aide or up on a mountain to meet flying saucers to take them to the fifth dimension.
Dean:
"As I don't see how stealing something must result in a systematic paying back as punishment. This is the same mistake that was made when it was decided eternal damnation to hell existed."
JJ:
It is not the same mistake at all, but corrects that mistake. The true Law of Karma illustrates that all punishment is not eternal but has a beginning and an end.
Dean:
"The same mistake. But in a different form. This misconception of punishment and reward, has it's true essence from the results of cause and effect."
JJ:
If you do not believe that punishment and reward occurs in this universe then there is not much I can do to help you. In fact I just made a move that completely disproves your black and white statement. I rewarded Dan with the free book since he received the most votes. He won the prize, not because he did nothing, but because he initiated causes. Others who did not win still garnered many positive effects.
And by there way, I did not change the rules. No one got the exact answer so we had to make a judgment call and I left that up to the group.
Dean:
"Although what you say is already a part of our justice system. It is because we create justice.
"How on earth can it work or be regulated on a universal scale in which free will exists?"
JJ:
Yes, we create justice and correspondingly all the intelligence of the universe cooperates in meting out justice through karma. The vast majority of life in the universe seeks intelligent justice.
Dean:
"If it is true do you think we would need a justice system at all? We could all sit back and decide that murder is ok cause they will be punished for it later on. I don't think that is responsible."
JJ:
This is silly Dean. Are you arguing just for the sake of argument again as you have done in the past and created the effect of agitating many? (Perhaps this explains why you are so agitated).
Sure the murderer will receive his just due (maybe even lifetimes in the distance) even if he escapes the justice system, but in the process he could wind up killing ten more people and not only create harm for others but a greater debt for himself. The justice system not only punishes and helps to pay off karma early, but it protects. (Yes, it has its flaws but that is another subject.)
Dean:
"Another thing is I considered unconditional love to be based on forgiveness. If you learn from something why would a punishment be needed in addition?"
JJ:
If you make a mistake and go too far into debt the time may come that you will realize your mistake and say: "Man I have learned the error of my ways and will not do that again. I'm going to go tell my banker that I have learned my lesson and see if I can get out of the debt." The banker of course laughs at the thought and tells him, "Perhaps by the time you pay off your debt you will really learn your lesson and also gain greater appreciation for the value of the money you borrowed."
Then the banker does him a favor and refers him to a job opportunity where he can double his income. If he takes the job he can pay off his debt much more quickly.
By using our intelligence we can pay off our dept more quickly, but not just negate it by saying I am sorry.
Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Matthew 5:26)
Dean:
"If a criminal understands a crime he has committed and is sorry for it. That is if anything a cause for celebration. An example of this is when in the Bible the lost son came home after spending all the fathers inheritance and coming home sorry and broke. He was not punished but they celebrated the progress that had been made in understanding what was futile. No punishment was needed."
JJ:
Read the parable again. He squandered his inheritance and his punishment was that he had no inheritance but it was all going to the faithful son. The father said to the faithful son: "All that I have is thine." (Luke 15:31)
The prodigal son was accepted but had to earn back that which he squandered.
Dean:
"Would we not punish ourselves enough for our mistakes?"
JJ:
Yes, we do punish ourselves. When the guy went in debt perhaps he punished himself by being upset with himself but the debt also punished him. I'm sure the prodigal slapped himself several times for foolishly squandering his inheritance, but the punishment of not having an inheritance also reinforces the lesson.
Dean:
"As the lesson would already be complete and punishment would not serve a purpose for anything."
JJ:
The lesson is never complete until the cause is balanced off with an equal effect.
Dean:
"Balance is a result of right living. Cause and effect is karma."
JJ:
That's what I've been trying to tell you.
Dean:
"What if you stole something to save someone's life?"
JJ:
Then someday someone may break a law to save your life. It would obviously be worth the risk. The person learns the lesson that what is the good is not defined in black and white but in the overall effect.
If someone took something from me that saves a life I have already determined in my mind that it is a gift. Taking a gift is a different thing that stealing. I think most people have the same attitude as I.
Dean:
"Who decides and regulates this morality?"
JJ:
It is not a morality, it is a law.
Dean:
"Ignorance creates suffering. Not any karmic debt or credit that must be balanced."
JJ:
And negative karma is created by ignorance.
Dean:
"The universe would get so bogged down by these kind of karmic banks you describe of pay backs and rewards, waiting to happen, until nothing could be freely expressed at all."
JJ:
And you know this because...? Obviously karma works and there is no bogging down.
Dean:
"It seems much more reasonable that cause and effect is just the natural justice of karma in itself. Nothing more complicated."
JJ:
Agreed.
Dean:
"If I eat some meat from a cow. Does that cow need to eat some of me at some point? Who enforces that rule? That is a mighty restriction to be placed on the universe."
JJ:
You have to look at like effecting like to understand the effect. A master may come to a disciple and tell him that to complete his mission will require the sacrifice of his life. Does this mean the master must give his life in the future? No. Because the disciple agrees.
The intelligence in the lower kingdoms agree to sacrifice themselves as needed to the benefit of the higher. The reason for this is the lower will eventually have consciousness in the higher so such sacrifice is an investment for them.
Dean:
"I do not agree I have a karma to do list waiting for me. Such a thing can only exist in your imagination."
JJ:
I have heard you complain about your life over the years to see that it is obvious that you have such a list. Unexpected things will continue to happen -- things that you cannot explain from actions in this life. Eventually that list will become obvious to you.
"Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
-- Jesus, Matthew 26:52
Copyright © 2007 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved