2007-7-11 05:53:00
Here is an answer I gave to response I received from my last post. This is a summation of several posts.
A Reader says:
"Since the Davidic servant has been likened in scripture as being raised up "like Moses", it would seem Moses would be a great source of comparison. But we must look at the true story of Moses as it appears in scripture to compare him.
"I am wondering first here, what 'prophesised deliverer' Moses was supposed to suspect he was, JJ? The only Deliverer prophesised or promised in Jewish scripture are about the coming of Jesus, not Moses. There was no tradition, no scriptural promise, of a deliverer that God would send to the poor suffering Israelites to save them from their troubles in Egypt. No, Moses did not suspect ever he was the "prophesised deliverer", because he had never heard of any such a person."
JJ:
Not so fast. Anyone with a Mormon background ought to know that the orthodox scriptures do not give all the prophesies or the history of Israel.
Here is a crystal clear prediction of Moses given by Joseph who was sold into Egypt:
"And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel. And Moses will I raise up, to deliver thy people out of the land of Egypt."
"Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever."
2 Nephi 3:9-10, 16
The work of Moses is even referred to in the Book of Genesis:
"And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. Genesis 50:24 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence." (Genesis 50:25)
Everyone who read this knew that God wasn't going to come down in person and "bring you out of this land" but would use an appointed deliverer. And who was the one that fulfilled this prophecy and took the bones of Joseph out of Egypt?
"And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he (Joseph) had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you." (Exodus 13:19)
A scholar named John A. Tvedtnes wrote this:
"Joseph's prophecy of Moses is confirmed in Jewish tradition, notably in two of the second-century-A.D. targumim, or translations of the Bible into Aramaic. In a lengthy addition to Genesis 40:12 in Targum Neofiti, Joseph interprets the three branches of Joseph of Egypt, by Robert E. Barretthe butler's dream as representing "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the sons of whose sons are to be enslaved in the slavery of the land of Egypt and are to be delivered by the hands of three faithful leaders: Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, who are to be likened to the clusters of grapes." Similarly, in the Talmud, Rabbi Joshua interpreted the three branches as representing Moses, Aaron, and Miriam." (Babylonian Talmud, Hullin 92a)
All this only makes sense. After all does not the scripture say?
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)
Do you really think God would perform some of the greatest works in history through a deliverer and not tell the prophets what is coming? Many of the prophesies and prophets have been lost to history.
Were the people expecting a deliverer? Yes, they were praying every day for him to appear. Even the Pharaoh was nervous about his coming and killed all the male children in hope of preventing his appearance, just as Herod did at the time of Jesus.
Reader:
"And if he did go around saying 'I am the deliverer', the people would have had no idea what the 'blank' he was talking about. They had no promised Davidic servant, as is the case with us."
JJ:
They did have the promise and because they were enslaved a much larger percentage were looking for deliverance than any are today.
JJ quoting himself:
"Even if Moses knew he was the one he had the common sense to know that people wouldn't accept him just because he proclaimed himself."
Reader:
"The only thing Moses was, was the bearer of a message to the people directly from the LORD."
JJ:
You could say this about any promised prophet, even Jesus. This has nothing to do with any point I made. Moses teachings were followed by the evidence of great works.
Reader:
"What happened to Moses? He was approached by the LORD, in the burning bush. God said He had heard the cries of his people suffering in Egypt, and he told Moses to go tell the people he had seen the LORD and that the LORD said He had come down to earth to now deliver them. The deliverer, from the very start, was never Moses, it was the LORD."
JJ:
If you want to diminish the role of any prophet you can always say that God did the whole thing through him. This has nothing to do with any point I have made. Some of the prophets, including Moses were great men in their own right and there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Of course, we want to give glory to God. That is a given and is not a point of argument.
JJ quoting himself:
"So how did the people find out about Moses? They had evidence of who he was when they saw him boldly go before the presence of the Pharaoh time and time again with power that overwhelmed all his magicians."
Reader:
"The first time Moses went boldly before Pharoah, the result was the Israelites were commanded to make bricks without being given straw. The people rose up in hot anger against Moses for this. It didn't enhance his reputation. But they did not need 'evidence of who he was' anyway. They already knew totally he was the man who told them the LORD had spoke with him, his going before Pharoah proved nothing to them they did not already perfectly understand about Moses."
JJ:
I didn't say they were convinced the first time or two he went before Pharaoh. I said: "They had evidence of who he was when they saw him boldly go before the presence of the Pharaoh time and time again."
After the Red Sea was turned to blood, the plagues of locusts, frogs, hail, boils and finally the death of the firstborn the people definitely were confronted with tremendous evidence and saw him much differently than at first.
Why do you think they followed him out of Egypt? It was because of the signs and wonders. They wouldn't have believed strongly enough to leave if it was not for the great works God did through Moses.
JJ quoting himself:
"Finally, when they crossed through the Red Sea and were delivered they were pretty certain."
Reader:
"Yes, they were pretty certain, for the umpteenth time. Only hours prior to that, when the Pharoahs chariots approached them, they proclaimed how much smarter it would have been to have remained in Egypt and worked for Pharoah, than die in the desert under the misguided hand of this Moses fellow. So his reputation had hardly been built up by that point."
JJ:
He had a strong enough reputation to cause all Israel to gather and follow him. Who among us today could gather an entire people out of a nation? When they reached a dead end, sure they were afraid. It did not occur to the common people that the Red Sea would part for them at the word of Moses (by the power of God of course).
Reader:
"In fact, by the time Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments in hand, he found the children of Israel had totally forsaken the deliverer. And not Moses, the deliverer, either; for he never was the deliverer. They had forsaken the LORD their God and built unto themselves a golden calf, whom they proclaimed as the god who brought them out of bondage in Egypt. The people were so in tune with the deliverer at this point, God ordered 3,000 of them slaughtered. This isn't much of a testimony--the golden calf incident and the 3000 slaughtered--that the people 'got it'."
JJ:
I don't see your point. I've never claimed the children of Israel were perfect. You are arguing against something I did not say.
The people as a whole saw the great works that God did through Moses. None could deny the pillar of fire or the parting of the Red Sea, but this did not make them obedient. How many accept Jesus but do not do what he says? That does not mean that Jesus is not seen as the Messiah by them.
Reader:
"No, Moses never proclaimed himself as the deliverer. But from the start, he claimed to have seen the LORD and received important information for the people."
JJ:
Yes, and unlike all the One Mighty and Strong Ones surfacing, this witness he gave of The Lord was followed by great works that bore witness to the fact that he made real contact.
Reader:
"Conclusion: This first example of how to look for and find the Davidic servant is, sorry to say, impossibly irrelevant. Why? Because the Moses JJ talks about never happened. He isn't the Moses in Exodus."
JJ:
I think I have established that my example is indeed relevant and accurate.
The point stands that if we want to look at how God is going to do his work in the future we need to examine how he did it in the past. Circumstances change and correspondences will not be exact, but there will be similarities.
If a true servant is going to come forth in the near future we can expect his works and words to manifest in a similar manner to those of the past. Sure Moses was doubted by his people but it didn't take long after he announced that God was working through him that great works followed. I know the are dozens of would be Messiahs out there wandering for years in the wilderness of society with a dozen followers or less. These will cite scriptures showing the coming servant will be rejected - but no figure with an important work as Moses of Jesus will be that rejected. A number of pure in heart will always see the truth and when the work is truly manifest the world will align itself for or against.
Reader:
"MY ARGUMENT, AGAIN, IS NOT WITH HOW REAL THE ACTUAL OMS WILL BE. BUT HOW YOU MISREPRESENT MOSES AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW TO FIND THE REAL OMS, WHICH WAS THE TOPIC OF YOUR ORIGINAL POST."
JJ:
It sounds like I must have pressed some type of emotional button with you for your normal friendly attitude is replaced by quite accusatory and somewhat distorted attack here. On top of this you write in caps which are interpreted as shouting on the forums.
Your main point of disagreement is not my main point that history repeats itself (with subtle differences) but that I misrepresent Moses. I do not think you have made your point on that at all.
I quoted the Book of Mormon as follows:
"And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel. And Moses will I raise up, to deliver thy people out of the land of Egypt."
"Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever."
2 Nephi 3:9-10, 16
To this you say:
"SO YOU ARE SAYING THE JEWS IN EGYPT WERE READING THE BOOK OF MORMON?"
No, I did not say this. Please do not put words in my mouth. Nephi was quoting from the writings of Joseph. And where was Joseph when he wrote these things?
In Egypt.
And who did he write them for?
The tribes of Israel?
And who had access to them in that age?
Obviously most or all of Israel. Nephi only had access to them because he obviously brought them over to the New World from Jerusalem.
Do you think he brought the only copy?
Obviously not - neither did he bring the only copy of Isaiah.
Have many manuscripts from ancient days been lost to history? Yes, this particular writing would have been lost, except for its salvaging through the Book of Mormon.
I quoted this scripture:
"And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob." (Genesis 50:24)
You say that this gives no indication of a deliverer such as Moses but unless the Israelites thought that God was going to come down in person and say follow me he would have had to use a human deliverer. Obviously the people would expect a man like Moses after reading this. In addition to this the lost writings of Joseph which were in existence at that time makes this fact irrefutably clear.
In addition you state that the Pharaoh did not know of the prediction of Moses. Josephus who has access to many ancient manuscripts disagrees:
"While the affairs of the Hebrews were in this condition, there was this occasion offered itself to the Egyptians, which made them more solicitous for the extinction of our nation. One of those sacred scribes, who are very sagacious in foretelling future events truly, told the king, that about this time there would a child be born to the Israelites, who, if he were reared, would bring the Egyptian dominion low, and would raise the Israelites; that he would excel all men in virtue, and obtain a glory that would be remembered through all ages. Which thing was so feared by the king, that, according to this man's opinion, he commanded that they should cast every male child, which was born to the Israelites, into the river, and destroy it; that besides this, the Egyptian midwives should watch the labors of the Hebrew women, and observe what is born, for those were the women who were enjoined to do the office of midwives to them; and by reason of their relation to the king, would not transgress his commands. He enjoined also, that if any parents should disobey him, and venture to save their male children alive, they and their families should be destroyed."
Josephus, Book 2, Chapter 9, Sect 2)
Obviously the Hebrews knew of this prophesy as well as the one of Joseph since it was the main reason their children were being killed.
To think that they had no predictions of Moses and there were no prophets at that time giving hope by predicting a deliverer requires a quantum leap of faith in the negative direction. I don't see your reasoning here neither do I see why this is such an important point to you as it has little to do with my main point.
Let me repeat my original premise which is this.
If we want clues as to how God will work with prophets in the future we can get clues by looking into the past. My main point was that when Moses, Jesus and Joseph began their work in the name of the Lord, they did not begin by saying "I am a mighty and strong one - follow me." Instead of telling people they were mighty and strong they actually gave great works and words to the people. So far every "One Mighty and Strong" (OMS) that I have encountered has been powerless except for physical authority over a handful of followers and with no prospect of doing a work like that of Moses, Joseph or Jesus.
So, looking at the past what should we expect from a OMS in the present?
If he announces himself as a deliverer in any way this announcement should be followed shortly thereafter with powerful signs and wonders. If he is like Jesus he wouldn't announce himself at all but just go do great works which would be followed by great controversy.
Do you really disagree with this premise? I guess if you thought you were one of the many who see himself as the OMS I could understand. Otherwise it is difficult to see why you disagree so.
Global Warming Enlightenment:
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-- Robert F. Kennedy Jr. speaking at Live Earth
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