2006-6-17 06:48:00
This argument on determinism is getting about as weary as arguing the moon being made of green cheese. This is a doctrine popular during the dark ages and partially responsible for keeping the people in their darkness. Many felt it was fruitless to use free will to change anything, as everything was already determined.
The only other argument that has so distracted the list was what we call the nothingness philosophy.
That said, I feel I have to set the record straight on a couple comments from Dean concerning my teachings. Then I hope to escape this topic as soon as possible and move on.
Dean:
"Well he should read it and think about it. JJs teachings in a nutshell contradict the Kybalion at a foundational level because he teaches that there is no such thing as the infinite here. But that it might exist outside this world. But not in this world."
JJ:
I took a look at the Kybalion this evening which comes from the website:
www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion.htm
I cannot find any original Kybalion text. This seems to be a treatise on it. If you have a link to the original I would be glad to look at it.
It is interesting that the Kybalion was supposed to be written by Hermes and Woody thinks he was Hermes. It is also interesting that Woody wanted you for a disciple and now you are basing your whole argument against me by using the Kybalion, quoting many catch phrases from it word for word as if they were your own thoughts. You are indeed a disciple of the Kybalion and possibly Woody, who is attempting to guide you. No problem with that. It's just good to know where you are coming from so I can more adequately communicate with you.
I read some of the Kybalion this evening and it says quite a few things in alignment with my teachings. Ironically, it says some things that run contrary to what you have been teaching.
The text I read says:
"We do not wish to enter into a consideration of Free Will, or Determinism, in this work, for various reasons. Among the many reasons, is the principal one that neither side of the controversy is entirely right--in fact, both sides are partially right, according to the Hermetic Teachings."
This is in harmony with what I have taught, that both extremes of this teaching are incorrect. You teach the extreme that all, every detail, has been previously decided. The Kybalion says that this idea is only "partially right." The other extreme, that nothing is determined or predictable, is also only "partially right."
I agree with the Kybalion 100 percent on this.
This is also supported in this statement:
"And yet, do not make the mistake of supposing that Man is but a blind automaton--far from that. The Hermetic Teachings are that Man may use Law to overcome laws, and that the higher will always prevail against the lower, until at last he has reached the stage in which he seeks refuge in the LAW itself, and laughs the phenomenal laws to scorn. Are you able to grasp the inner meaning of this?"
As I started reading I saw a major contraction within the teachings of the Kybalion itself. It says this:
"THE ALL is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE..."
It thus says that the ALL is undefinable and then proceeds spending a good portion of the book defining it. It says it is unknowable and proceeds to explain it so we can know what it is.
If God or "the All" were truly unknowable and undefinable then it would be silly to define it as "infinite" as does the Kybalion and Dean. If it were truly undefinable and unknowable there is no way anyone could be consistent and define it as infinite or all knowing. All one could say is that he doesn't know what the dickens it is, how big it is, how smart it is or any of its characteristics.
On the positive side I thought this statement from the Kybalion was good and in harmony with my teachings about God:
"Following the Principle of Correspondence, we are justified in considering that THE ALL creates the Universe MENTALLY, in a manner akin to the process whereby Man creates Mental Images. And, here is where the report of Reason tallies precisely with the report of the Illumined, as shown by their teachings and writings. Such are the teachings of the Wise Men. Such was the Teaching of Hermes. THE ALL can create in no other way except mentally, without either using material (and there is none to use), or else reproducing itself (which is also impossible). There is no escape from this conclusion of the Reason, which, as we have said, agrees with the highest teachings of the Illumined. Just as you, student, may create a Universe of your own in your mentality, so does THE ALL create Universes in its own Mentality."
The writer uses the term "mentally" for want of a better word. I use the foundation word of Purpose and the Trinity of Purpose/Decision/Intelligence and Purpose/Light/love as it manifests in creation.
It says:
"THE ALL can create in no other way except mentally, without either using material (and there is none to use)."
This is in harmony with my teachings that matter has no solid material but is only Purpose in vibration. I have also said that man's imagination is a reflection of God's imagination and we both use this principle to create. The main difference is that "we cannot out imagine God" and thus what is unlimited with God appears infinite to the human point of view.
It says:
"Just as you, student, may create a Universe of your own in your mentality, so does THE ALL create Universes in its own Mentality."
I can see why John C thought I may have taken a few things from this book as this is a principle I endorse.
Dean:
"Just like hot and cold is part of the same thing. With different degrees in between the two. There is no place where hot and cold starts or stops. There is no place where finite starts, and infinite stops."
JJ:
Actually cold starts at minus 459 degrees Fahrenheit, and hot cannot exceed the temperature where particles vibrate faster than light. There is a beginning and end to all things in the world of form including hot and cold.
Dean:
"Since this teaching contradicts how polarity works, as a result it will cause countless paradoxes for students of JJ."
JJ:
There are no true paradoxes in my teachings of which I am aware.
Dean:
"There is no denying that you believe god is ignorant. Else mistakes would not be possible."
JJ:
To deny there is such a thing as a mistake is to deny the reality in which we live. Would you call DaVinci ignorant because he made mistakes before he finished the Mona Lisa?
Dean:
"The main idea I was trying to convey is that according to you god does not know what will happen as he creates what he knows the end result is that he wants. Right?"
JJ:
God knows the end which he has imagined but does not know all the details in between, nor would any intelligent being want to know. Why would Leonardo want to know how many times he would have to relieve himself in the process of painting the Mona Lisa? Why would God want to know about all the times you scratched your armpit as you are assisting in manifesting a creation? It's silly when you think about it.
Dean:
"However there is nothing to hinder god. What you think is the hindrance. Does not even exist. Only gods will can exist."
JJ:
But the Kybalion says God is unknowable, so how can you claim to know this and accept the book?
God's will always manifests, but it works its way through many hindrances. Without such hindrances creation would be no fun and God would not even participate. Would you play Monopoly if you got the roll of the dice you wanted each time? No you would not. Neither would God.
Dean:
"You do not have the excuse of Satan anymore. But you use the term "dark brothers" in it's place. You also use the fact of some parts of god are ignorant. As an attempt to explain how mistakes are made. But the only conclusion we can realistically make is that some parts or forms of god are made like this on purpose.
"For who else decided to create them that way? and why? No other will can exist all is one."
JJ:
As God jumps into the game of creation and life through his reflections (us) he has to figure things out through us to manifest his will. It's not that we are made the way we are on purpose. We have always been and are not created because (as the Kybalion says) THE ALL is in ALL. As creation manifests we all have to plow with the horses we have until mastery is attained. This is verified by reality.
Dean:
"It all boils down to the fact you think god is unfinished business."
JJ:
This does not accurately describe the way I think. God is not so much in business as in a game to enjoy himself, just as his reflections are. He has not finished the game and when he does he will create a new one and we will assist.
Dean:
"Without order."
JJ:
I have never said God is without order. What makes things unpredictable is not chaos for chaos is fairly predictable. What makes things unpredictable is intelligence making decisions. Intelligence produces order, not chaos, and the decisions of one who is intelligent are the most difficult things to predict.
Example: Before World War II DK tells us that Christ and his Hierarchy thought they had the path of evolution into the new age figured out. Then an evil genius named Hitler made decisions that were not foreseen and created situations that caused the Hierarchy to reformulate many of their plans. We will still enter the new age as planned, but the path is different than planned.
Dean:
"And also ignorant. And has something new to learn."
JJ:
You must believe this yourself for you apparently believe the Kybalion which says THE ALL is in ALL. If the ALL is in you and you are ignorant of tomorrow's newspaper then the ALL must be ignorant of it also.
Dean:
"You do not acknowledge to the list that Evil and Good are a part of the same polarity. Just as any polarity is. And so are the same thing in different degrees."
JJ:
There is no such thing as two sides of a duality being the same polarity. By definition a polarity can only exist when the pull is to one side of the duality.
Dualities exist in our world, but are an illusion originating from a place where there are no polarities.
Dean:
"As a result you still have the original Christian illusion in your mind."
JJ:
I don't think so. You are the one with the fundamentalist Christian view of determinism, the infinite, perfection, God's will, etc. Very little of my thinking is orthodox as is yours.
Dean:
"The event of spilling the coffee. Lets take a look at this. First. Who made the accident?"
JJ:
It was not any conscious mind, but a lack of attention.
Dean:
"It was the guy spilling his coffee. He made the accident. Not the whole of god."
JJ:
But you believe the whole of God is in the guy.
Dean:
"Who above him, knew more about him?"
JJ:
But you believe THE ALL is in ALL so there was no one above him.
Dean:
"And Who above him knew about his current state as an entity? Who above him knew he was going to spill the coffee? God."
JJ:
But you believe THE ALL is in ALL so there was no one above him.
Dean:
"Who allowed the accident to happen? god. Who knew about the accident? god."
JJ:
If THE ALL is in ALL then God did not know the accident was going to happen.
Dean:
"Who therefore decided that this accident was in the best interest of the man and all that existed? God."
JJ:
If THE ALL is in ALL then God was in the builder and the builder did not decide to have the accident. Therefore God had nothing to do with a direct decision to cause the accident. It was merely an unforeseen accident related to the decision to build the house.
Dean:
"Because god let it happen as a whole."
JJ:
There is no let or not let. Things just happen through natural law. This has nothing to do with what god "lets."
Dean:
"Not part of his design for himself. But what about the design of the whole of god?"
JJ:
The whole of God is in you. THE ALL is in ALL.
Dean:
"Which he is ignorant of. Thats where his perception of mistake comes into the equation. Just like your perception of chaos. Comes into your perception from what you do not understand. It cannot be chaos. But universal law. It cannot be a mistake. But order."
JJ:
You seem to have no idea what I think about chaos, law and order.
Dean:
"...Desipte the fact that there can be no problem. Gods will rules the whole. And nothing else can."
JJ:
I would like to know where you get the idea that there can be no problems, no errors and no mistakes in life. This is not taught in the Kybalion or by any teacher of significance I can think of.
Yes, God's will rules, but part of his will is to have a game with lots of pitfalls so he can enjoy the win in the end.
Dean quoting me:
"Next he decides to physically build the house. As he starts a neighbor comes to him and tells him the house is already built."
Dean:
"Who do you think sent the neighbor over?"
JJ:
Duh... The neighbor sent himself, obviously.
Dean:
"Didn't Jesus say something to the effect that he does not come of himself but by the one who sent him?"
JJ:
Not exactly. He said he came in his father's name. If a pizza delivery guy comes in the name of Pizza Hut this does not mean my neighbor is visiting me in the name of Pizza Hut. Come on. You can use better logic than this.
Dean:
"If he drew up the plans himself. How was it (injuring his hand) not part of his plan? This doesn't make sense."
JJ:
I can't believe you think the builder hit his hand as part of a plan he drew up. Amazing.
Dean:
"What you have to recognize and have faith in. Is that you do not know all that goes on in the whole of god."
JJ:
Then why are you assuming you know so much about the whole of God?
Dean:
"And all it's effects and causes. You cannot judge that something is a mistake."
JJ:
Sure I can. If I make a typo as I type I judge that to be a mistake. Look up the word "mistake" in the dictionary.
Dean:
"And you certainly can't prove it."
JJ:
I prove it all the time.
Dean:
"You can only prove that to you it is a mistake. But that's because of your own ignorance about gods agenda."
JJ:
But THE ALL is in me and since the ALL of me says it is a mistake then it is a mistake.
Dean:
"Perhaps the tools that were suddenly stolen from the builder were used to save someone elses life at the time. And so produced more good than bad."
JJ:
Dream on...
Dean:
"The builder curses it as a hindrance. but would the builder do so if he knew the overall effects this had produced for others and so for himself?"
JJ:
Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, yes. He would still curse if he knew.
Dean quoting me:
"The builder felt like slapping some sense in the neighbor but constrained himself. 'I'll tell you what this theft did,' he replied. 'It has cost me time and money and delayed the building of the house. This thief has done nothing to add to the perfection of anything as far as I am concerned.' 'Wait and see,' said the neighbor."
Dean:
"Now you are mis-representing my views just as much as I have mis-represented yours."
JJ:
I don't think so. The neighbor may have responded differently from you as the builder responded differently from me, but they are not intended to represent how you or I would respond. It's a fiction story meant to illustrate truth. I take it for granted you are a polite neighbor in real life.
Dean:
"And it just points out how you yourself have represented my views as much as you think I have yours."
JJ:
Name one view I have misrepresented.
Dean quoting me:
"'Your house is now perfect,' said the neighbor. 'All those things you thought were mistakes were just part of a plan to create a perfect house for yourself.'"
Dean:
"Incorrect. Those things were nothing to do with his goal of building the house. That's why he labeled them obstructions. To that particular goal they were obstructions. Fortunately he was destine to overcome them. And he achieved success and glory just as it was written of him."
JJ:
This was not written of him. This seems to contradict your previous statements. You have said that everything that happens is already decided by God and there are no mistakes.
Dean:
"Keep in mind, This is why everything in your life does not seem to go exactly the way you want it too. The reason being, you have no responsibility over what you do not understand and cannot change. And until you do it's not your concern. Just do the best you can and carry out what you came here to do."
JJ:
What? To be a robot? I don't think so.
Dean:
"Ok now the builder is introducing effects for himself which is going to bring him even less control than he has. Just like those who you call dark brothers bring themself down."
JJ:
I thought that you believe we cannot introduce effects for they have already been introduced by God and are already happening and are perfect. Very confusing.
Dean:
"The builder may want to drive him crazy because the neighbor drove him crazy. But 2 wrongs don't make a right. And the builder is just as foolish as his enemy now."
JJ:
But there are no wrongs possible according to you. More confusion.
Dean:
"If the builder would realize what the higher purpose is. And realize himself. The builder would suddenly be overcome with gratitude."
JJ:
Yeah, right. He's going to be filled with gratitude that someone stole his tools. Think about what you're saying man! He may be filled with gratitude despite this, but not because of it.
Dean quoting me:
"Jesus said: 'The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.' Matt 26:24"
Dean:
"Exactly. The son of man goes as it is written of him. That is another way of explaining determinism if you hadn't noticed."
JJ:
I still don't notice. This has absolutely nothing to do with determinism as you teach it. There is no argument that some things can be predicted. The argument (perhaps you have not noticed) is whether everything down to the smallest detail can be predicted. In other words, it can be predicted that there will be a crime mentioned in tomorrow's newspaper, but no one can email me the exact text of the whole paper in advance.
Dean:
"If he betrays. Like the builder did by buying that dog and making it bark. It is said to be better if he had not been born. Simply because he is killing himself anyway. Through his own decisions. All this god knows. But you cannot hold him responsible for your own actions. God is just."
JJ:
You're making no sense here.
If it is better that one who is born should not have been born this plain and simple tells us that his birth was a mistake and not all happenings are perfect.
Dean:
"This in no way contradicts my beliefs."
JJ:
It does, big time.
Dean:
"There is no avoiding mistakes for god. Because there is no mistakes. And nothing happens by chance. There is only law."
JJ:
Even though there is a reason for all mistakes, they are still mistakes.
Dean:
"If you have killed yourself through your own decisions. You have done so on purpose and that is your will and your destiny."
JJ:
But people who kill themselves are ignorant of the effects making it a mistake because of unforeseen consequences.
Dean:
"Don't you know god is just?"
JJ:
Of course. Do you?
Dean:
"To believe what you do you insult his and her intelligence. To believe in mistakes you lack faith in gods ability. In a state where mistakes are possible."
JJ:
God's justice isn't like the politically correct crowd who try to shelter us from mistakes, but in the end (as with the builder) all mistakes are seen and corrected.
Dean:
"Infinite intelligence does not produce mistakes."
JJ:
God's intelligence in you is making a lot of mistakes. Get used to it or your life will be frustrating.
Dean:
"And I have demonstrated already how god must be nothing less than infinite in nature."
JJ:
Since the infinite cannot be seen, felt, reached or understood then it cannot be demonstrated.
Dean:
"When you are able to prove that the finite is not the same as the infinite. Then you can prove to me how god is limited at this moment."
JJ:
This post I am making has a finite number of words. Count them and you will have your proof.
Dean:
"Until then you are simply incorrect."
JJ:
Then has arrived.
I know God will not give me anything I can't handle. I just wish that He didn't trust me so much.
Mother Teresa (1910 - 1997)
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