2006-4-29 17:58:00
I posted my last writing on three lists. I did get one detailed response from "the prophet" at the "Sealed Portion" list. I thought you may be interested in reading it.
If you want to check out the postings at this list you can go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheSealedPortion/messages
I wrote: The Principle Behind Enjoyment - or that which makes life worth living.
Chris ["the prophet"] responded with:
"First we need an answer to why we live in the first place. So we ask you, why do we exist and how do we exist and what caused us to exist so that we can experience what you term 'life'? Before we can arrive at a conclusion of what makes it 'worthy' we must understand what and why 'it' is."
JJ: Why are you asking me a question you have not answered - at least I have not seen an answer in your writings? Are you looking to me to solve the great mystery?
Here's the short answer: "Why do we exist?"
The natural impulse behind all life is to create or have experience that is meaningful. This impulse which lies within the purpose of God lies behind all creation. We exist or live to have experience.
Chris: "How do we exist and what caused us to exist so that we can experience what you term 'life'?"
JJ: I agree with Joseph Smith here in that we never had a beginning and will never have an end. There is no first cause. Cause and effect just is and through cause and effect we came to be as we now are. This was a long process that involved many incarnations and ascent and descent through many spheres. We have lived many more lives than the two or three you infer.
It is not as simplistic as the idea that God and his wife had a baby composed of spirit matter. Where did there spirit matter come from? How is it different from physical matter? Where did consciousness come from? Where was the entity before he occupied a body of spirit?
I do not recall you answering any of these things.
My long answer to these questions is found in my book, The Molecular Relationship. You can read it free and it can be found at my web site mention at the end of this post.
Chris: "Why do we as humans care what we want out of existence?"
JJ: It is self evident that it is much more desirable to enjoy our experiences than to not enjoy them. Why would one even need to ask that question?
Chris: "What other living thing can cause a change in our 'emotion' except for us?"
JJ: When another can change our emotional state it is because we have allowed them to have this power. Yes, we are the ones responsible for how we feel. The trouble is that few can control this power including yourself which is obvious from your biography.
Chris: "Sure, others can change our environment, even burn us at the stake, but why should our "emotion" change?"
JJ: It changes for the average person because he is not aware of his freedom of choice and accepts society's standards of what should make him happy.
The advanced person can choose those things that will effect his emotional state - or he can choose to not be effected. It all depends on the purpose he is pursuing.
Chris: "Therefore, how can it be stated 'IF you had' when we already have 'full power'?"
JJ: Because few realize we have full power including, apparently yourself. If you want to go through a locked door and have the key in your pocket, but do not know you have the key, then you do not effectively have the power to go through the door.
There is a way to do anything, but if one does not know the way he does not have the power.
Chris: "Can you name a position, relationship, or possession that is spiritual, or did you just throw that in there to have power over our emotion?"
JJ: Every position and relationship is spiritual if the person is pure in heart.
"Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual...." (D&C 29:34)
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
Chris: "Why would we care about tomorrow's happiness when we lack it today?"
JJ: It's not a concern of mine, but this group seems extremely concerned about their happiness now and in the future.
Chris: "Sufficient unto the day is the lack of happiness we are experiencing."
JJ: Speak for yourself. I do not see the lack.
Chris: "If we are concentrating on experiencing happiness today, would it not add to our unhappiness to worry about finding it tomorrow with a goal?"
JJ: If the goal is to obtain happiness you may be correct, but as I said happiness is a byproduct and a temporary thing. Who's worrying about finding happiness in a goal? Not me. Enjoying the ride through life in the Now is the important thing, for we are always in the Now.
Chris: "But the proper question to ask here is: What is happiness?"
JJ: Happiness is the emotional thrill we receive from getting what we want.
Chris: "Why do we seek it?"
JJ: Because our internal programming causes us to gravitate toward pleasure and happiness and away from pain.
Chris: "Before we can find it, we must understand exactly what it is? So, what is it?"
JJ: See above.
Quoting me Chris wrote:
"'People express different ideas as to the optimum method of livingness, but the question we need to ask is what is the core principle we are looking for here and how do we apply it?'"
Chris then wrote:
"What is the core principle of which you speak? Before you can advice one as to what it is and how it is applied, you need to define it."
JJ: I did give it. Let me repeat: When this concept is contemplated the answer will come. It is contained in the principle of freedom and can be expressed thus: "The freedom to make a decision, to transmute that decision to a goal and the goal to reality."
Chris: "But because you can't, or because you have already set in your mind what this core principle is to YOU, YOU set up the following exercise to lead others to the understanding YOU desire...."
Quoting me Chris wrote:
"'It would help to do this exercise. Look back over your life and reflect on your state of mind, your happiness, your joy or good feeling over the various situations and events during your years on this earth. Reflect on your state of consciousness and how you felt and then pick the three that would be the most desirable to experience again. What are they?'"
Chris: "Since happiness is not a physical principle, but is an emotional state, how could one possibly find it properly by looking at physical things?"
JJ: Our happiness in this world is dependent on our emotional response to physical surroundings and experiences. Can you give me an example of you having happiness in this world without the physical being involved?
"Spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man CANNOT receive a fullness of joy." (D&C 93:33-34)
You cannot have a fulness of joy unless the physical is merged with the spiritual.
Chris: "I would agree that if one were looking for physical enjoyment, then one should do YOUR exercise."
JJ: The exercise is not dependent on what one is looking for. It is dependent on what IS. I asked readers to examine their lives and find the three things that caused them the most happiness. They are free to examine the spiritual and physical. I placed no restrictions, except that it would involve their life.
Chris: "But if one is truly interested in the source of real happiness that comes from within, or better, from our emotions, it would be better to follow the exercise of one we trust; maybe one who you have left out of your message. One whose message IS the antithesis of everything you have written here: Christ.
"Here's HIS exercise for finding this optimum enjoyment for which one seeks: The day you did not get angry with another."
JJ: This has absolutely nothing to do with my exercise. Why are you changing the subject? My exercise was involving specific events in one's life, not generic platitudes. This is a strange way to carry on a dialog. Maybe I ought to talk about horses now. If you do not want to do my exercise just say you do not want to do it. I cannot think of why you would not want to do it unless you can't think of anything in your life that gave you a happy experience.
BUT since you changed the subject, I will humor you and respond to several of your statements.
Chris: "The day you did not get angry with another."
JJ: That's every day for me but it has little or no effect on my happiness.
Chris: "The day you respected everyone's belief as you did your own."
JJ: I respect other people's belief systems, but this has nothing to do with my happiness.
Chris: "The day you made no promises you could not keep."
JJ: Again, this is everyday with me.
Chris: "The day you lusted after no other woman but your wife."
JJ: Same answer.
Chris: "The day someone hit you on the right cheek (or attacked you country) and you turned to them the other."
JJ: I have turned the other cheek many times, but it didn't make me happy.
Chris: "The day someone compelled you to go a mile and you went with them twain."
JJ: I have done this and it brings some mild satisfaction.
Chris: "The day you gave without expecting anything in return."
JJ: Again, this brings mild satisfaction. I don't know if it is great enough to call it happiness.
Chris: "The day you loved your enemies and did good to those who persecute you and hate you and despiteful use you. (even other countries and terrorists)"
JJ: You keep calling me your enemy. Have you ever done anything good for me? Have you ever shown me love? Not that I know of.
I have followed this injunction and would describe the result as amplifying inner peace rather than bringing happiness.
Chris: "The day you judged no one, or put up a measure of how they should be."
JJ: Apparently this is not today for you for you are judging me as being "the antithesis of Jesus Christ."
Here are the rest:
"The day you gave without others knowing or without you paying attention to the action of giving or gaining from it in any way."
"The day you forgave another completely. (including terrorists, rapists, molesters)"
"The day you did not work or pursue any form of "physical" pleasure."
What do all these statements have in common?
They all involve actions on the physical plane, yet Chris criticized me because my exercise involved the physical. You need to get your own priorities straight before you criticize others.
Quoting me, Chris writes:
"'Pick three of these things and go back in your consciousness and briefly relive them. What was special about them? What was the key ingredient that made you feel good? What principle can you apply to repeat your enjoyment or perhaps an even grander or at least a more consistent basis?'"
Chris then writes:
"Well, it would be this: In every instance you were doing unto others what you would have them do unto you."
JJ: No argument that the Golden Rule is a good one to apply. I think 99% of the people on the planet agree with these words of Jesus. What is your point in bringing this up? Following it does bring a sense of well being, but this does not contradict anything I have ever written.
Chris: "Of all the things you listed (which is surely a list that many will present in the day of judgment before the Lord) which one did Christ tell you to do?"
JJ: This has nothing to do with my exercise which was to discover the three things you experienced in your life that made you happy. Jesus didn't tell me to eat breakfast, but I did eat and enjoyed it. So what? This had nothing to do with the Golden Rule.
Chris: "When you present YOUR list of your works and say to him, 'Lord, Lord have I not in thy name done many wonderful works?' What do you think he is going to say?... (Look it up for yourself in Matthew 7:21-24.)"
JJ: The list had nothing to do with my works. How about staying on the subject?
Chris: "How do we know what goal to set?"
JJ: If you have to ask that question then you have a problem and your life is probably in a state of confusion.
Chris: "Why do we set goals and other animals on this planet do not?"
JJ: Because we are self conscious and the animals are not.
Chris: "Are we to come up with our goal from the list you have provided us above?"
JJ: That was not the purpose of the list. The list was a random selection of what people believe brings them happiness. I thought that point was obvious.
Chris: "Does not that goal have its end in death?"
JJ: Most goals do not result in death or life, but quality of life.
Chris: "Did Christ ever advise one to set a goal?"
JJ: Yes, many times. The Golden Rule you just cited is a goal to reach for. He set the goal of preaching the gospel to every nation. He said "Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect." That's a goal if I ever heard one. "Seek and ye shall find" is another. The wise man will have the goal of increasing his talents. I could go on and on.
Chris: "Did he not preach against goals and that "...sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"? By George, I think he did! But whose paying attention to him anyway?"
JJ: I don't think so. That statement is from the Sermon on the Mount which is full of goal setting statements.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matthew 6:33) "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Matthew 6:34)
Here he sets the goal of seeking first the kingdom and secondly the goal of putting your thoughts on the present rather than worrying about the future. If we take care of evils as they come up the future will take care of itself. This doesn't mean that Jesus ignored the future for many of his goal setting statements involved the future -- such as preaching to all nations.
Chris quoting me wrote:
"'Freedom is essential to happiness because without freedom there can be no movement forward. With loss of freedom comes movement away from the goals established accompanied by a negative state of mind.'"
Chris then wrote:
"Well spoken IF your goals are physical. But if your goal is spiritual, no bondage, no lack of freedom can take away your happiness...."
JJ: You assume I am against spiritual goals. I am not. The subject was goals. The goal itself does not bring happiness but the actions taken to bring you closer to it do, whether physical or spiritual.
Chris quoting me wrote:
"'Happiness is temporary because once a goal is met a person ceases to move forward and the happiness dissipates. To cause happiness to return a new decision must be made and a new goal set. As he then moves toward the new goal he then has the byproduct of happiness again should he choose to attach himself to it.'
"'Some may consider that last statement odd, but we must realize that we came here more for the journey than for the emotional state of being happy.'"
Chris then responded with:
"The statement is not odd, it is true PERTAINING to the things of this world, but has nothing to do with things that are not of this world, or things which are spiritual, which if pursued and understood would never allow a temporary happiness, but would assure an eternal one -- worlds without end...."
JJ: Even the happiness from spiritual goals has an end when the goal is reached. This is why we need the eternal progression, as taught by Joseph, so happiness can be renewed.
Do you think you can apply the Golden Rule for one day and have eternal happiness? No. You have to do it tomorrow and the next day to renew it.
All happiness is temporary because all goals which create it have an end.
Chris: "How and why do we know what a desirable destination is?"
JJ: Pretty simple. It is whatever you decide is desirable.
Chris: "How would we know that it is 'happiness'; if we don't know what happiness really is and why we pursue it and how we can recognize it for what it is? You need to give us a definitve answer as to this mystery...."
JJ: Again, it is pretty simple. How do you know ice is cold? You can feel it. How do you know if you are happy? Same thing. Not much mystery there.
Chris: "How does one control his destiny?"
JJ: By persevering until one reaches his goals.
Chris: "Why are we able to control our destiny?"
JJ: Because we want to.
Chris: "And who gave us the right to control it?"
JJ: It is inherent in us because we are in the image of God.
Chris: "Sure, you might be controlling yours, and I would guess as long as you are happy you like the control. But is it not true that in your physical desire for happiness, YOU seek to control others?"
JJ: No.
Chris: "(Don't make me quote you.) Do you not agree with the concept of national borders? Are not borders a way of controlling another for the sake of your OWN happiness and pleasure?"
JJ: No. It is a measure to prevent them from controlling us. I take measures to prevent a burglar from gaining control over my life not because I seek to control him, but seek to prevent him from controlling me.
The same with you. You excommunicated John C and others from your list to prevent them from influencing your group. Obviously you believe in borders. Why pretend otherwise? If I am not mistaken you still have a separate group with borders to keep non-believers out. It is your right to do this, but in so doing you need to acknowledge your belief in borders and boundaries.
Chris: "Based on your previous doctrine, unless it has changed now, do you not also derive your happiness from controlling the happiness of others?"
JJ: No.
Chris: "The pleasure you have described and seek cannot come only from control of YOUR own destiny, but comes from how you control others also...."
JJ: I was describing generic pleasures, not necessarily my own, except for the wine.
Chris: "So, which is it? Should we seek for physical peace or spiritual peace?"
JJ: Both, with spiritual being the priority.
Chris: "How do we recognize it as peace?"
JJ: How do you recognize cold and hot? You know it when you experience it. Pretty simple.
Chris: "What causes us to define peace?"
JJ: What causes us to define "hot?" Same thing.
Chris: "And what is the highest we know, and how did it become the highest?"
JJ: How does one see the highest part of a mountain? You look and see. Correspondingly, you look within and see the highest you know to be true and follow. Again, extremely simple.
Chris: "Who took the first action so that we could experience happiness?"
JJ: George.
Chris: "JJ you are the antithesis of Jesus Christ. Your subtle notions of doctrine leads one away from the very core of his gospel. In you we have an example of an anti-Christ of which was prophesied. You sound more like a therapist than a teacher of truth."
JJ: Obviously you did not pick the "do not judge" criteria to make your day happy.
Have you had even one happy day in your life? How about telling us about it? You've cited numerous occasions in your biography when you were miserable so surely you've experienced the other side, which is happiness.
"Skeptic" writes:
"I can say if there was a Jesus and Nemelka was his prophet Mr. Dewey better worry a bit."
JJ: Nemelka [Chris] teaches that the only criteria by which God will judge us is the Golden Rule. Since I am a big believer in this and follow it then even Nemelka's god will have to accept me, as long as he follows his own rules.
"Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one's values."
-- Ayn Rand
Copyright © 2006 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved