Judas Questions

2006-4-7 17:11:00

Ruth writes:

What if Jesus had betrayed Judas in a past life? Wouldn't that then lead to karma for both of them, and the end result was Judas betraying Jesus in that lifetime?

Because Jesus was much further along the path than Judas it is unlikely that Jesus has betrayed him in the past. It is quite possible hat Jesus had betrayed one of his teachers in the far past when he was a regular disciple and the betrayal of Judas was a fulfillment of his own karma.

Ruth:

Perhaps he (Judas) was directed by soul to end his life at that time for a specific reason other than Judas feeling guilty about what he did?

Anything is possible, but as a general rule the soul urges all those in reasonable health to continue with their lives until a natural end comes. This is essential to fulfill the entity's purpose in life. My soul has never led me toward escaping responsibility.

Ruth quoting JJ:

To arrange such a deception would have involved some dishonesty on the part of Jesus, which deception runs contrary to the total honesty practiced by the Christed ones.

Ruth:

Was it Deception and dishonesty or was it more along the lines of karma and/or taking that specific initiation?

It would have been deceptive. Several times it is written that Jesus stated point blank that one of the disciples would betray him. Then at the Last Supper he even identified the betrayer as Judas. It would have been a definite contrived deception to have stated several times that a disciple would betray him when he knew that there would be no betrayal, but Judas was only doing as directed and faithful to his Lord.

Ruth:

If Jesus did not know one of the Disciples would deceive him, and was not being deceptive in anyway...

I was talking about the point made in the Gospel of Judas. If it is true then Jesus knew that Judas was appointed by him to pretend to betray him then this would have been a definite contrived deception, something a Master avoids at all costs.

Ruth quoting JJ:

It is very believable that one disciple out of twelve would betray his master. Almost every great teacher has a disciple who betrays him.

Ruth:

Therefore if this is a given principle or law, then Jesus would have known beforehand that one of his Disciples would betray him, which means that either he didn't know which one it would be, hence there was no deception on His part in all of this.

Betrayals are an effect of laws rather than a law or principle by itself. Just as it is written that one third of the hosts of heaven betrayed God and followed Satan it is a general probability that one third of the disciples of an enlightened teacher will betray him to some degree - if given the opportunity.

Despite his weaknesses Judas was the one most qualified to be the twelfth apostle and Jesus had to plow with the horses he had. As time progressed he could see into his heart and discern his intent, but from the beginning he expected to be betrayed, especially because of the prophecies of betrayal in the Old Testament.

There would have been no deception on the part of Jesus if the standard Gospels are true, but if the newly revealed Gospel of Judas is true there would have been.

Ruth:

If Christ knew who it would be, then was He being deceptive to Jesus by not telling Him?

It is not deceptive to not tell all you know. I am not telling you the color or my shirt I am wearing. Am I being deceptive? No. It becomes deceptive when you ask the color of my shirt and I give you the wrong answer.

Ruth:

What if Judas was overshadowed and someone higher gave him the go ahead to do what had to be done, without Jesus' knowledge?

This is probably what was going through the mind of Judas. One belief is that he thought that had to force Jesus to display his powers by putting him in a life and death situation. He thought the Master would save himself and convince the world he was the Messiah. When he saw the plan did not work he realized he was deceived by a dark brother rather than a master.

Ruth quoting JJ:

The deception was not even necessary. The authorities were looking for Jesus and were eager to get their hands on him. Jesus could have sent a courier with a note telling them where he was and they would have eagerly pounced on him. There were many people who knew who he was and could have properly identified him.

Ruth:

Then why didn't they do this earlier? Why wait for Judas to do it, when others could have?

Because suicide is against the code of the Brotherhood of Light. A brother may give his life through the natural unfolding of events if it furthers higher purpose, but he will not self-destruct. To face the cross with no karma so death could have been overcome he needed the unfolding of natural events to lead him there. If he had plotted with Judas then this would have been a suicidal and deceptive plan.

Ruth:

Was Judas pulled out of the Molecule by the Dark Side, and if that's the case, then is a molecule truly secure, even when run by the Christ, Jesus and Angels?

Judas pulled himself out through his act of betrayal. Molecules made of humans have been very fragile in the past, but as they are finally established concretely and in larger numbers they will be much more stable. Democracy, for example, was extremely fragile when first practiced by the ancient Greeks, but is now much more stable, thousands of years later. Even so we still have a long ways to go.

Ruth:

Why didn't Judas say to Satan "get thee behind me Satan?" So was Satan just playing out his role in all of this? Consciously planned or not?

Because Judas thought he could see from a higher angle than his Master - a common mistake made by disciples. He thought that Jesus was not doing what he came here to do and he would help him out. Because of ego a dark brother deceived him and convinced him he was in the light.

Ruth:

Jesus could quite easily have healed Judas from this Devil, surely, but he chose not to. He had cast out other demons from people, why not Judas?

You have to want to be healed to be healed through spiritual healing. Judas thought it was Jesus who had the problem, not him.

Ruth:

Why didn't everyone become weak and fall asleep when Judas broke the molecule at that exact point in time?

They did. He betrayed Jesus at the Last Supper and all were weakened from that moment on.

Ruth:

If these Disciples were in a molecular relationship with Jesus, then all of them must have had soul contact and could tap into the Oneness Principle, and know all that Jesus knew surely?

Yes, they all had soul contact, even Judas. What made his betrayal so egregious is that he went against his own soul. When he did this he lost his contact and became extremely depressed. This is one of the reasons he committed suicide.

The only thing the apostles knew was what they were taught by Jesus or that which they sought to know through the Oneness Principle. If they did not seek they did not know.

Ruth:

They are portrayed as having the tongues of fire above their heads which symbolizes the Holy Spirit at the opening of their crown chakra, then why wouldn't they have understood Jesus and His teachings?

This was after the resurrection. They did experience miracles, but that does not mean they had all knowledge or wisdom.

Ruth:

Does Judas keep reincarnating and suffer karma over this for the rest of his lifetimes? Doesn't one pay off karma quicker via real service? How would the Lords of Karma deal with this man? Hmm.....

Yes if Judas comes back and does great acts of service this will be a great aid in paying off his karma. When he becomes a spiritual teacher he will probably have a trusted disciple betray him and then fully understand what he did to his master.

Woody writes:

Some future archeologist might find a few scraps of "Mein Kampf" and figure we were all Nazis. False correlation everywhere.

Good point.

Woody:

The natural reaction of a person is to retreat from Truth that has a shattering effect on their world concept. This is a natural reaction and I'm sure that it never goes away.

Woody:

True, but I think this group is not as dogmatic as most and that most here could accept the truth either way without having their world collapse.

Woody:

If we are talking Deceivers here, DK takes the absolute CAKE. How much of DK do we really understand? I could put my comprehension of DK's principles and put it in a thimble.

This is deception caused by our own selves, not the teacher. A conscious deception is one where the person purposefully gives false information to cause a wrong conclusion to be reached. An Algebra textbook is not deceptive because we do not understand it. We deceive ourselves about interpreting equations because we have not sufficiently applied ourselves.

I also didn't understand much of DK when I first started reading him and still have much to learn, but I have always considered him an honest teacher.

Woody:

Let's say Judas had it in his heart to betray Jesus at that time. Is it like a christed one to sucker some poor fool into committing a good act with wrong intent? By your definition of a christed one, wouldn't such a man take Judas aside and say "Look, I have some concerns. Your attitude has been really crappy lately and I've received soul contact that you're going to do something monumentally stupid. It works in my favor, but I'm not going to let my needs get in the way of looking out for my brother so I thought I'd mention it."

Actually, I believe he did take Judas aside and talk to him about such things, but Judas defended himself and his ideas of what Jesus needed to do to bring the Kingdom of God.

A betrayal never helps a mission and Jesus could have accomplished more had Judas been faithful to the soul contact. There would be no historical question as to whether or not Jesus existed had Judas been faithful.

Woody:

Jesus never said Judas betrayed him.

After Judas kissed him Jesus said: "Do you betray your master with a kiss?"

Woody quoting JJ:

The authorities were looking for Jesus and were eager to get their hands on him. Jesus could have sent a courier with a note telling them where he was and they would have eagerly pounced on him. There were many people who knew who he was and could have properly identified him.

Woody:

So if this was the case, why didn't he?

Because, as I said to Ruth, to be free from karma and fulfill his mission he had to let the natural course of events unfold. If Judas did not betray him something or someone else would have probably yielded him to the authorities. In the off chance this did not happen his mission may have taken a different course. It was not so set in stone as many believe.

Woody:

Jesus won't subvert another man's choice (that would be wrong), but he could have prevented the situation from reaching its climax by just saying "Ah. Judas, hold on a sec, my dear apostle. Let me run that errand." and he could have walked himself to the Sanhedrin.

But that would have been suicide creating karma for himself.

Judas believed he had a plan superior to his master and would have forced the hand of Jesus later if he was prevented at that time.

Thanks for the insightful post, Woody.

Dennis writes:

Perhaps Judas was a Zealot who wanted Jesus to take over the Army or start an Army to concur the Romans in that area. Judas knew Jesus had that much power and could start and complete the job. Judas was trying to force Jesus into that position of power.

This is a popular view of scholars and I believe it has some truth in it. It is interesting that even the worst villains in history think with their ego that they are doing the right thing. It is only by maintaining consistent soul contact that we can see the correct step to take.

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)