2005-10-7 04:45:00
My Friends,
I had an interesting exchange regarding my description of the atom on Sterling and Susan's list. Here is the essence of it -- I'll leave out the name of the person involved.
Reader:
"I don't know how plainer I could have made it when I criticized JJ's narration of the quantum experience as using an out of date scientific model where atoms were compared to "beach balls" (beach ball is JJ's phrase) ... that quantum theory rejects these early 1900's ideas as naive."
JJ:
Quantum theory says that subatomic particles exhibit the properties of both a wave and a particle. Some scientists say this is an illusion, but assuming it is correct when an atom or electron exhibits the property of a particle what shape is it if not round?
Would actual photographs of individual atoms that look like small beach balls do the trick?
Go to "Takai Lab" at:
http://www-atom.mls.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/www/index-e.html
Then click on the box on the left, which reads "World of Atoms." Viola! There you will see actual atoms that look like small beach balls. Enlarge them and you have large beach balls!
For other pictures of individual atoms go to:
"The Magnetic Field -- A Crop Circle Of July, 2000 Under Scrutiny For Meaning" at: http://www.greatdreams.com/biomag.htm
"New Way to Make Nanoscale Circuits is Discovered" at: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/process_engineering/report-32703.html
Reader:
"Sheesh. A retired real estate monkey lecturing a Ph.D. in chemistry with all the confidence of a fool.
"That has to be good comedy.
"Hey Einstein, take another look at the site and pay attention to the dancing atom in the upper right corner.
"'Dancing' is a key word you are missing in your dissertations on the quantum world. There are a couple of other fundamental ideas of quantum mechanics you miss too, but perhaps we can cover that another day. You might take a look at "The Holographic Universe" by Talbott ... it covers in layman terms some of these other things."
JJ:
The dancing atom has nothing to do with quantum physics but proves my previous point that even stable atoms have slight polarity. It is obviously a slight imbalance in charge that is causing the atom to move back and forth.
To say this is some type of quantum movement is illogical. If it were the movement would be a much greater distance and many atoms (instead of a single one) would be disappearing into waves and reappearing. Only one atom out of hundreds is even moving.
Your point to me was I was wrong in stating that if one were to descend into the atomic world that one would see the atoms as objects. Yet here we have an actual photograph of atoms that are like many beach balls grouped together. How you can deny the shape of what can be photographed is a mystery, especially from one who claims superior learning.
How much more obvious can it be that if you were small enough that you would see the same beach ball like objects as in the actual photograph?
I'm sure you will soon bow out of this argument soon to minimize being embarrassed by a monkey.
Reader:
"I will repeat myself here again at the science 0.00101 level .... 'It is generally accepted by quantum scientists that the Quantum world does not follow the laws of the macro non-quantum world.' Please read that sentence until it is understood. Please notice the words 'does not.'"
JJ:
This is completely understood by me and does not refute anything I have said.
Reader:
"So, JJ says, 'looky, looky, here some photo's!' Sheesh. Does JJ know how those are imaged? Do these guys even claim that these have quantum relevance... are quantum representations? So, now I am supposed to explain how quantum scientists even view such photo's? They would laugh at JJ's points as complete crap.... missing the point... wide of the mark. Why? Two words: Quantum Universe.
"I gotta go. But, when I get a chance, I will type out a few comments on the difference between disinformation and misinformation. Maybe that will help. JJ's nonsense is misinformation run amok... he's way in over his head in regard to his nonsensical over-simplified scientific claims ... if it was that easy, we scientists could complete our training in a week."
JJ:
Two Words: Actual Photograph.
It doesn't matter whether there is a quantum or holographic universe, form is form. If you look at a picture of a beach ball then it has the shape of a beach ball whether it is a hologram or not, or if quantum is at play or not.
We have an actual photo of atoms that look like little beach balls and you have failed to explain why I am wrong in saying they look like beach balls. Sigh.
Your response is to say I do not understand how an electron microscope works. I understand it as well as I understand how a digital photo or a film photo works. You only need to know one thing. The form you photograph is the form that exists in this reality.
If I were you I would be embarrassed to cut and run without explaining why you disagree with me or why I am wrong.
Any other "scientists" that can answer for thus guy?
Checkmate.
The reader then quit the list. I thought this was sad because he had been a member for years and often caused controversial, but interesting dialog. Even so I couldn't let him get away with an unjust attack because he is a PhD.
"Men of ill judgment oft ignore the good That lies within their hands, till they have lost it."
-- Sophocles (496 BC - 406 BC)
Copyright © 2005 by J J Dewey, All Rights Reserved