2004-10-6 15:30:00
I thought I would respond to some of Gar's statements.
Gar first quotes JJ:
"Can anything change the absolute fact that the water was 100 degrees at that point in time and space? Are you saying you can go back in history and change the temperature? That is what you would have to be able to do if it is relative."
And then Gar writes:
"The water is only 100 degrees as far as the measurements, instruments and so PERCEPTIONS of man are concerned. Therefore the water is only 100 degrees in RELATION to those measurements, instruments and perceptions."
JJ:
So you agree with me then that it is absolutely true that the water is only 100 degrees in RELATION to those measurements, instruments and perceptions.
The fact that water is 100 degrees is an effect which makes it part of that great and true law of cause and effect which law is eternally true.
Gar:
"Measurements, instruments and perceptions are one with the temporal world, and so they are themselves temporary, they will eventually fail and fade away, and when they are no more, how hot is the water?"
JJ:
You are altering my point. Sigh. Let me repeat. "Can anything change the absolute fact that the water was 100 degrees at that point in time and space?" I was talking about a point in time and space - not two points. Of course the water will be a different temperature at a second point or different time. You are making my point not refuting it. The truth at a point in time and space will never change. If my bathwater was 100 degrees On October 1, 2004 then it was true at that point and it is still a historical fact today and tomorrow.
I wouldn't be surprised if you think 2+2 does not equal 4.
Gar:
"No master can change your perception, no, but he or she can demonstrate that your perception is flawed (or at best relative). All perception is flawed by dint of the fact that it is perception and not Awareness."
JJ:
No argument there.
Gar quoting JJ:
"All facts are eternal. It is eternally true that I am typing at this computer at this point in time and space. A million years from now it will still be true that I was here typing at this point in time."
Gar:
"It is only true for you, JJ, due to your personal consciousness. It is only true in your personal, subjective memory and mind."
JJ:
You would be an interesting person to be called for jury duty. I can just see you talking to the jury in contemplation saying something like this:
"They may have discovered the murder weapon, fingerprints, motive and other so-called evidence, but it means nothing. Only the murderer saw the murder so the murder only happened for him and was only true for him. For us there was no murder because none of us was there. Since there was no murder in our reality I do not even know why we are here. Let's declare him innocent and go home."
Gar, my friend. Don't you see how silly your point is?
Do you really have the nose on your face? After all I can't see it, so maybe it is not there. Don't you have better things to argue about?
Gar:
"Spiritual masters demonstrate that 'solid' objects can be manifested in the physical world by desire (will) alone. I have seen not so very evolved yogis do this in front of my eyes. It's a good experience because it reveals the futility of our mental knowledge in the presence of a higher truth."
JJ:
About 99 per cent of those guys are regular magicians, but even if you saw a true manifestation it does nothing to reveal any futility of mental knowledge.
Gar:
"In the light of Truth there is no difference between oxygen and iron."
JJ:
And you do not have a nose because I can't see it. Of course, there is a difference. You have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Why do you expect us to accept outrageous statements just because you say them?
Gar:
"A master can walk through iron just as he/she can walk through air. By way of focused will the molecules of iron can be rearranged by the master to produce oxygen, and vice versa. It is all just a light show. Once the light show is mastered it can be bent, manipulated to produce what mankind would regard as miracles, which defy all our rational understanding."
JJ:
Anything that is true does not defy rational understanding but goes along with it. What are called miracles are very rational once they are understood.
Gar:
"Does "seeing" a principle, or understanding it with the mind evoke divine Truth in consciousness?"
JJ:
Yes.
Gar again quoting JJ from a previous post:
"What is the difference between truth in the divine sense and truth that is not divine? Does not all truth lead to the divine?"
Gar:
"Essentially That which is inviolable, incorruptible and unchangeable is divine, is True. Studying the ephemera of the phenomenal world with the mind will never lead to divine Truth. Worshiping the mind and its contents (meaning giving credence to either) does not lead to God."
JJ:
Who worships the mind? No one I know.
Gar quoting JJ from a previous post:
"I would be interested in what you consider to be three divine truths and then three that are not divine."
Gar:
"We can ascribe certain qualities to Divinity: Divinity is Blissful; Divinity is Holy, Sacred; Divinity is Eternal; Divinity is Free."
JJ:
But you said relative facts are not true. Something cannot be blissful unless you relate it to that which is not blissful. Something cannot be holy unless you consider it relative to that which is not holy. Eternity only has meaning relative to time. Freedom only has meaning relative to that which restricts.
You have failed to give me a single truth relative to your own standard of truth.
Gar:
"You appear to be saying that Maya continues to exist until the pralaya of all beings, but does the yogi absorbed in nirvikalpa samadhi still experience Maya?"
JJ:
Maya exists within the whole. Various parts are able to free themselves from it.
Gar:
"Truth does not pass away."
JJ:
No argument there.
Gar quoting JJ again:
"You seem to be using a much different definition of truth than in the dictionary."
Gar:
"Was the dictionary written by an enlightened sage? If not I would not be disposed to give it much credence."
JJ:
Let me give you some advice. If you really wish to communicate your ideas use words as they are understood in meaning. If you start calling oranges apples and men women it will not be long before your friends will doubt your sanity.
Gar:
"Truth is undefinable by the mind of man."
JJ:
Then how have I defined it using my mind? How did Webster do it? My dictionary says it is, "Conformity to fact or actuality." Sounds good to me.
Gar:
"The mind of man can only know what is not True, even though it may know ABOUT what is True. Do you see the subtle but profound difference?"
JJ:
I'll prove you wrong with this simple statement that my mind knows.
Two plus two equals four.
Gar quoting JJ:
"I ate lunch a while back and am no longer eating lunch, yet it is still true I ate lunch. This is quite basic truth and surprised we need to cover this as all children understand this."
Gar:
"I just asked my 3 year-old daughter if she thought it was true that JJ just ate lunch. She didn't know what I was talking about! :)"
JJ:
You're confusing to me also so I'm not surprised your three year old isn't sure I ate lunch. After listening to you she probably thinks I live on air and do not eat.
Gar:
"To the enlightened one, change, impermanence and untruth are all synonymous terms."
JJ:
What enlighten ones are these?
Gar quoting JJ:
"Change is the only thing in the universe which is permanent."
Gar:
"In the mayic universe, yes. But there is another Universe where change is not."
JJ:
Tell me about something in this other universe that does not change.
The only thing that does not change is the principle of change and the eternal law that governs this is cause and effect. The principles that govern this are formless and eternal, but even they are involved in the creation of change.
Gar:
"Today I am in England and the sun shines. But for you in the USA it is night time; the sun does not shine for you."
JJ:
But it is true to me that the sun is shining for you, even though it does seem unusual that the sun is shining in England. Must be your lucky day.
The fact that the sun is not shining here has absolutely nothing to do with the truth that the sun is shining in England.
Gar:
"So what is the fact: does the sun shine or not?"
JJ:
The sun is shinning in England at a certain point in time and space. This is historical truth for the whole universe. Your three year old should understand this.
Gar:
" I would prefer to say that the sun doesn't shine at all, but is a mirage."
JJ:
I would prefer to say the sun is shining if it is shining. Your life must be very complicated.
Gar quoting JJ:
"Can you think of a greater hell than being eternally complete and doing absolutely nothing forever?"
Gar:
"No, my mind cannot quite conceive of it. That is because the mind can only regard what is of maya."
JJ:
My mind can conceive of it and it would be very undesirable.
Gar:
"It is one of the unfathomable mysteries (for the mind of man) that out of Nothing arises something."
JJ:
DK [Djwhal Khul] gives a fuller explanation. He says "From the higher vision, that sees the subtler continuously overshadowing the dense when not in objective manifestation, pralaya is simply subjectivity, and is not that "which is not," but simply that which is esoteric."
Creation does not come from nothing, but "that which is esoteric," or hidden from our normal consciousness.
Gar:
"But Awareness comprehends."
JJ:
And awareness is something.
Gar:
"When you say that the scientist can "see" truth, do you mean that the scientist can Know Truth by way of his instruments and mental processes?"
JJ:
Yes. If he looks up and sees Mars then it is true he is seeing Mars.
Gar quoting JJ:
"We had to come here to move forward on the path. There is no other way. Before we incarnated we did not understand universal laws."
Gar:
"Do you believe, then, that God's immortal, holy Angels need to incarnate into the physical world of birth and death in order to understand universal law?"
JJ:
Yes.
Gar:
"The Truth is so very wondrous that no mental body can ever comprehend it; only the awakened heart can Know."
JJ:
That's what makes it so wondrous is that the mind can comprehend many truths.
Gar:
"I think that I am right in saying that your interest and mind were stimulated by the AAB [Alice A. Bailey] books, JJ. Is that correct?"
JJ:
This is one of the many that has stimulated me.
Gar:
"Let me pose a scenario as a corollary of this: You have arrived at a keen understanding of at least a good deal of the contents of those books and in so doing you have been able to enter into a co-resonance with the mind and being of DK, and you have also been able to project out from their mentally and to compile your own teachings based on that understanding."
JJ:
Not necessarily based on "that understanding."
Gar:
"This is excellent and was one of the chief purposes of DK's work through AAB: mental development. But there is more to actually realizing the Truth than what DK formulated and taught. The path that DK presented to humanity is the slow path of initiation and reincarnation in time. However, this is not the teaching of the avatars who show the way to transcend time (as well as mind, which lives in time) altogether and to arrive in Eternity in the present moment here and now."
JJ:
What avatars are these and where have they shown this?
Gar:
"If you feel into the words of DK and compare them, even vibrationally, with say the Buddha's teachings or those of Jesus (or any other avatar) you will observe that DK's presentation is not the highest teaching and so neither is it the most liberating."
JJ:
Wherever truth is found there is liberation. The amount of truth found in the teachings of any avatar depends on the receiver.
Gar:
"It is also quite unnecessarily complex with regard to the fundamental requirements for Truth-Realization, which can only be attained experientially via the heart, not the mind."
JJ:
Both the heart and mind must be used in the pursuit of truth. If you discount the mind and go by the heart only you will be deceived.
For it is written:
"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered." (Proverbs 28:26)
Gar:
"DK did not have perfect Wisdom; he made mistakes."
JJ:
Possibly, but I'll bet you can't name any.
Gar:
"His was a limited awareness, and by resonating with it and even by proceeding to expand AT THAT MENTAL LEVEL AND VIBRATION, one would be automatically circumscribed in consciousness by and to that level of awareness."
JJ:
I do not base my teachings exclusively on any other teachings, but that which is received and verified through the soul and spirit.
Gar:
"What to your hand may feel hot and which you may measure as 100 degrees, to an enlightened master is seen as a dream, and the master can prove that hot and cold are dreams, unreal, by transcending their effects, by placing his hand in the boiling water and showing that no scalding occurs."
JJ:
Even dreams have truth. If I dream I ate an apple then it is true I dreamed I ate an apple. It is also true that I had the experience of eating an apple. It is also true that the dream was an effect of a true cause.
Gar:
"Remember how Jesus turned water into wine? Now was it water or wine? Is it cold or hot? Which 'fact' is the truth? Neither. It is maya."
JJ:
You are asking really easy questions. When it was water it was water and when it was wine it was wine. Duh.
Gar:
"The study of relative facts cannot lead to Truth because Truth is not relative to anything at all. Truth is absolute."
JJ:
Then give us a valid example. So far you have not done this.
Gar:
"When the 'facts' of the physical, astral and mental realms are transcended vibrationally in consciousness, all those 'facts' cease to exist, while Truth remains."
JJ:
And that truth would be...?
Gar:
"Light and Love are the only real and enduring Facts; all the rest is illusion."
JJ:
Light and love can only exist where there is creation which you maintain is illusion; therefore making light and love illusion.
Gar:
"I am in no way suggesting that we stop using the mind, but only pointing to a Reality that is beyond the mind's grasp. I am not the first person to do this in the world, am I?"
JJ:
No. I have also taught this.
Gar:
"Actually I use my mind a lot, but I am not attached to it or its contents. That is all I have been trying to convey, and I have attempted to share this because only in letting go of my mind's knowledge have I experienced the greatest and most liberating Light, which I have assumed, perhaps wrongly, is also of interest to Keys members."
JJ:
I think most already believe and accept this idea.
Gar:
"As you know and teach, erroneous knowledge prevents the attainment or progress towards Truth. If you were to join a certain class that taught that the earth is flat but you knew that the earth is round, would you not have to fairly challenge the teacher?"
JJ:
Nothing wrong with this.
Gar:
"In my own truth-seeking days I was personally never happy to move on to the next topic unless I had satisfactorily concluded my full comprehension of the present one."
JJ:
Are you saying your truth-seeking days are over -- that you have "found it" -- and that's it?
"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
-- Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
Copyright 2004 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved