Some Logic

2004-6-14 04:57:00

I'm not going to comment on your whole post as it is quite long and some of it I have no argument with, especially your quotes from DK.

I will comment on several items.

Robert quotes DK indicating that advanced humanity of today did not incarnate in earlier ages. By this he supposes that advanced humanity waited until this time to incarnate. This is possible for some souls, but he is misinterpreting DK here.

He tells us that the advanced souls of today did indeed refuse to incarnate for a period, but it was not recent history that they skipped but the primitive Lemurian days. And it was not only recently that they decided to incarnate, but began during earth life in Atlantean times many thousands of years before Christ.

He says:
"a large number of the present more advanced human beings came into incarnation in the middle of the Atlantean root-race." Initiation, Human and Solar Pg 45

"As stated in various occult books, many of the present advanced humanity individualised on the moon chain, and only took physical bodies in the earth chain during the fourth root-race, thus escaping incarnation during the first three rounds, and the first two races of the fourth round." Treatise on Cosmic Fire Pg 364-5

Then he makes this interesting statement:

"The bulk of human beings are still Atlantean, still purely emotional in their reactions and in their approach to life. They are still governed predominantly by selfish desires and by the calls of the instinctual life. Our earth humanity is still in the Atlantean stage, whereas the intelligentsia of the world, and the disciples and aspirants, are passing rapidly out of this stage, for they reached individualisation on the moon chain, and were the Atlanteans of past history." Esoteric Psychology Vol 2 Pg 25-6

Now according to Creme humanity before 2000 BC was at an average point of evolution of .002. If this were correct then the Atlantean consciousness would have been even lower since it stretches back in history hundreds of thousands of years.

Let us be generous with their spiritual evolution and use the more recent figure used by Creme of 2000 BC as their point and figure from there.

Now DK says in the above quote that "The bulk of human beings are still Atlantean... Our earth humanity is still in the Atlantean stage..."

The use of the word "bulk" would indicate more than half. A clue as to how much more than half is given his next statement: "the disciples and aspirants, are passing rapidly out of this (Atlantean) stage."

Here we learn that even some advanced students have not left behind the Atlantean consciousness, but are in the process of going beyond it. But what percentage of humanity are disciples and aspirants? Very few, less than 1%.

This means that about 99% of the world today is at the Atlantean stage of evolution or at least they were in 1942 when DK made the statement.

The question then arises. How could average humanity be 125 times as advanced as the average of the population of 4000 years ago when 99% are still Atlantean in consciousness? The idea that we are progressing so rapidly is fanciful and does not harmonize with any of the ancient wisdom.

Robert:
According to Benjamin Creme, the average number of lives between these initiations is around 7 or 8 or 9 lives - but can take up to 12 or 15 or even more lifetimes.

JJ:
This does not harmonize with the statement of DK: "I would remind you here that many, many lives can elapse between the first initiation and the second-long, long interludes of silent and almost unapparent growth." Discipleship In the New Age Vol 1, Pg 94-5

7-9 life times is a far cry from "many, many."

You seem to dispute the fact that it takes a thousand or more lives to achieve liberation. I was under the impression that you thought the number was less than a thousand. I was surprised to see that it takes hundreds of thousands of lifetimes.

DK does indicate it could be more than 1000. He says "The initial vibration is slow and heavy, and millenia of lives have to elapse before the interchange of energy between the Ego and its reflection, the personal self (the lower threefold man) is such that the consciousness of the man occultly 'awakens' in the Hall of Learning. For advanced man at this time these incarnations took place upon the moon chain and in some cases upon certain planets connected with the inner round." Treatise on Cosmic Fire, Pg 825

To achieve soul contact takes "millenia of lives." This means over 1000 lifetimes.

He also states:

"What the Personality spends many thousands of lives in establishing is not going to be lightly altered when the Ego-working in the lower consciousness-seeks to effect a change." Letters on Occult Meditation, Pg 82

Here he talks of "many thousands of lives."

If it takes over a thousand lives to achieve liberation then it is impractical indeed that there could be enough lifetimes to speed the evolution of the average person 125 times in evolution since 2000 BC and 25 times since the time of Christ.

If liberation takes a hundred thousand lives as you suggest then average humanity would have to live through thousands of them over millions of years to move ahead as Creme suggests.

There is no indication in esoteric writings that a great influx of advanced souls are just coming in now to the extent that evolution is so speeded up. This also does not explain Creme's statement that that average humanity increased in evolution five fold from 2000 BC to 1AD. There were not enough incarnations available to support such an increase, especially when you consider that the average person was lucky to get in one of his 1000+ lifetimes during that period.

Robert:
There is a difference between intelligence and spiritual evolution.

JJ:
I don't think so. This may seem true if you gauge intelligence by the standard of brain activity, but intelligence goes far beyond this. There is emotional intelligence, intelligence of the higher mind, and spiritual intelligence.

A Master of Wisdom is called such because of intelligence. He is intelligent enough to Master wisdom.

"The glory of God is intelligence."

Robert:
Where does DK tell us that the population explosion is causing entities to incarnate more often to fill the gap?

JJ:
DK writes: "For ages men have misused and wrongly employed a God-given function (procreation); they have prostituted their birthright, and through their laxity and license, and through their lack of control, they have inaugurated an era of disease, both mental and physical, of wrong attitudes and illusory relations which it will take several centuries to eradicate; they have also brought too rapidly into incarnation myriads of human beings who were not yet ready for the experience of this incarnation, and who needed longer interludes between births wherein to assimilate experience. Those souls who are unevolved come into incarnation with rapidity; but older souls need longer periods wherein to garner the fruits of experience. They are however open to the magnetic attractive power of those who are alive on the physical plane, and it is these souls who can be brought prematurely into incarnation. The process is under law, but the unevolved progress under group law as do the animals, whilst the more evolved are susceptible to the pull of human units, and the evolved come into incarnation under the Law of Service, and through the deliberate choice of their conscious souls." Esoteric Psychology Vol 1 Pg 272

Here we are clearly told that that the high and low are both pulled prematurely into incarnation "who were not yet ready for the experience of this incarnation." He says nothing about new souls coming in to fill the demand created with population increase.

He says they "needed longer interludes between births wherein to assimilate." He is obviously talking about entities who have been incarnating all along and not a fresh round of souls.

As far as lives under the earth goes - DK says there are "many" different types there, but does not give enough details to settle any arguments.

Robert, you obviously have a sharp physical brain here which makes it surprising that you cannot see the flaw in Creme's figures. If you examined his data with the same jaundice eye that you examine mine your belief system would be turned upside down.

I think that if Creme and I changed positions that you would accept anything I would put out without question.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking (1942 - )