2002-10-4 06:13:00
Blayne,
Larry has kept me busy, but I'll try to finally make time to get to your comments and then on to Susan's.
Blayne writes:
I must say JJ you must have expected to draw some responses with this chapter ;-)
My sentiment definitely leans towards what Larry and Susan have said. However I want to try and keep an open mind here and discern if I may. I have spent many years studying history and law concerning the origins of this country so I am intimately acquainted with this subject and even spent some time in front of some judges defending some of the rights and laws that haven been ignored and subverted to no avail.
This is a much misunderstood area because the research and study it takes is not easy and takes several years.
Larry writes: "Tyranny by the majority is almost non existent," he said. "In almost every example you can give me of tyranny there is a very small group involved who is causing it, not the majority. In the rule of the majority lies the path of safety."
I find this difficult to accept as a correct principle, or as a correct description of reality...
"Tyranny by the majority is almost non existent," is almost obviously false, and just the opposite represents the true picture where the minority have to often fight hard and long to overcome the resistance of the majority."
Blayne:
I think there are two ways to look at it. I certainly agree with Larry that the majority often supports tyranny for two main reasons among others. 1. Ignorance of just what is going on i.e. the Jews in Nazi Germany, few of the majority of Germans knew or believed the persecution and oppression of the Jews was going on at the time therefore supported it by default. 2. Fear, a majority may know what's going on but fear the oppressors, thus they do not stand up. Again as Germans began to realize what was a happening it was too late and fear kept them from stopping it. Even among Jews at first they did not believe these things were happening even though they were hearing it and when they did realize it was happening they feared to stand up and one by one were absorbed into it. Another would be apathy.
On the other hand when the majority are ignorant or fear to stand up is it safe for a minority to openly oppose the tyrants that control the majority? I think this can be one meaning of safety in following the majority at least to the degree necessary that you're not sticking your neck up to get it shot off and become ineffective in helping things to change. But I do not agree all laws need to be abided by because the majority supports them whether by ignorant default or knowingly.
JJ Response
I've covered quite a bit of this in my response to Larry. In my latest response to him I mentioned that I have never been tyrannized by the state in my life and cannot find a tyrant to fight in this country even if I was looking for one.
On the other hand, I see many injustices and areas that need improvement and I have dedicated my life to improving the situation of mankind both temporally and spiritually.
It is true that there is always the danger of tyranny and we should do all within our power to guide the majority toward greater freedom and away from slavery. But we must work smartly. If you fight city hall all alone you will lose. If you change the laws that govern city hall you become their master.
Blayne
On the other hand, again had the majority of the Jews stood up like those of the Warsaw ghetto there would have been no massacre
JJ
That was a true tyrannical act and that was the time to make a stand.
Blayne
I believe the constitution was penned precisely to protect the minority from having their rights denied or voted away by the majority. There must be a standard that even a majority cannot violate. This was the main reason for the Bill of Bights IMO. Otherwise it is just mob rules by popular opinion.
JJ
The majority are not perfect and the majority as a whole do not lead to greater heights. The virtue of the majority is that they generally have a reasonable sense of right and wrong and when correctly informed of two directions, they will usually pick the higher of the two.
Great leaders and teachers come from a small minority and the Founding Fathers were in this group. They were wise to create a constitution as a guide to the majority in an attempt to keep them pointed toward freedom. A constitution, founding document or mission statement created by an enlightened person or group is very helpful, but it will never be followed 100%. In almost every case there will be a drift away from the original intent. With your Mormon background you can see that this certainly happened with the church, even more than has happened with the state.
Blayne
I also found a particular statement in the book concerning this very thing contradictory.
Joe in the immortal: "I reflected a moment and said, "Even though laws may be imperfect we must submit to the ones supported by the majority or else there will be a breakdown of society and the mob will rule."
The majority is the mob. Mob rule allows the majority to deny the rights of the minority because they are stronger. This was again the purpose of having a standard in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that even the mob (majority) should not violate. It is during anarchy where a strong minority can seize and or exert control.
Me thinks Joe needs to re-think this statement ;-)
JJ
I am in good company. Let me give a few more quotes from Thomas Jefferson regarding majority rule. This man as well as the other founding fathers did not equate a majority with a mob. I think after reading these it becomes obvious that Jefferson understood the important principle taught in chapter 13 about working with the will of the majority. And note, he is talking about a majority in a more extensive way than merely voting for representatives.
"Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to Garret Vanmeter, 1781. ME 4:417, Papers 5:566
"If we are faithful to our country, IF WE ACQUIESCE, WITH GOOD WILL, IN THE DECISIONS OF THE MAJORITY, AND THE NATION MOVES IN MASS IN THE SAME DIRECTION, ALTHOUGH IT MAY NOT BE THAT WHICH EVERY INDIVIDUAL THINKS BEST, we have nothing to fear from any quarter." --Thomas Jefferson to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:321
"THE FIRST PRINCIPLE OF REPUBLICANISM IS THAT THE LEX MAJORIS PARTIS (THE LAW OF THE MAJORITY) IS THE FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF EVERY SOCIETY OF INDIVIDUALS OF EQUAL RIGHTS; to consider the will of the society enounced by the majority of a single vote as sacred as if unanimous is the first of all lessons in importance, yet the last which is thoroughly learnt. This law once disregarded, no other remains but that of force, which ends necessarily in military despotism." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1817. ME 15:127
"[With a majority] having declared against [our proposal], we must suppose we are wrong, according to the fundamental law of every society, the lex majoris partis, to which we are bound to submit." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:324
"Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them." --Thomas Jefferson to Annapolis Citizens, 1809. ME 16:337
"[Bear] always in mind that a nation ceases to be republican only when the will of the majority ceases to be the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to the Citizens of Adams County, Pa., 1808. ME 12:18
"The will of the people... is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801. ME 10:236
"The measures of the fair majority... ought always to be respected." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:397
"I subscribe to the principle, that the will of the majority honestly expressed should give law." --Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1793. ME 1:332
"All... being equally free, no one has a right to say what shall be law for the others. Our way is to put these questions to the vote, and to consider that as law for which the majority votes." --Thomas Jefferson: Address to the Cherokee Nation, 1809. ME 16:456
"[We acknowledge] the principle that the majority must give the law." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1788. ME 7:28
"This... [is] a country where the will of the majority is the law, and ought to be the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:85
"Civil government being the sole object of forming societies, its administration must be conducted by common consent." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.VIII, 1782. ME 2:120
"The fundamental principle of [a common government of associated States] is that the will of the majority is to prevail." --Thomas Jefferson to William Eustis, 1809.
"The voice of the majority decides. For the lex majoris partis is the law of all councils, elections, etc., where not otherwise expressly provided." --Thomas Jefferson: Parliamentary Manual, 1800. ME 2:420
"It is the multitude which possess force, and wisdom must yield to that." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:492
"Every man, and every body of men on earth, possesses the right of self-government. They receive it with their being from the hand of nature. Individuals exercise it by their single will; collections of men by that of their majority; for the law of the majority is the natural law of every society of men." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Residence Bill, 1790. ME 3:60
"The Lex majoris partis, founded in common law as well as common right, [is] the natural law of every assembly of men whose numbers are not fixed by any other law." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:172
"Absolute acquiescence in the decision of the majority, the vital principle of republics, from which is no appeal but to force, the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism, I deem [one of] the principles of our Government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:321
"If this avenue [i.e., the expression of the voice of the whole people] be shut to the call of sufferance, it will make itself heard through that of force, and we shall go on as other nations are doing in the endless circle of oppression, rebellion, reformation; and oppression, rebellion, reformation again; and so on forever." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:43
When the Majority is Wrong
"We are sensible of the duty and expediency of submitting our opinions to the will of the majority, and can wait with patience till they get right if they happen to be at any time wrong." --Thomas Jefferson to John Breckenridge, 1800.
"I readily... suppose my opinion wrong, when opposed by the majority..." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:99
"It is my principle that the will of the majority should prevail. If they approve the proposed constitution in all its parts, I shall concur in it cheerfully, in hopes that they will amend it whenever they shall find it works wrong. This reliance cannot deceive us, as long as we remain virtuous." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. (Forrest version) ME 6:392
"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society BUT THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:278
The Rights and Duties of the Minority
"Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:318
"If the measures which have been pursued are approved by the majority, it is the duty of the minority to acquiesce and conform." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1811. ME 13:51
"Every man's reason [is] his own rightful umpire. This principle, with that of ACQUIESCENCE IN THE WILL OF THE MAJORITY, will preserve us free and prosperous as long as they are sacredly observed." --Thomas Jefferson to John F. Watson, 1814. ME 14:136
"A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does, of necessity, fly to anarchy or to despotism. Unanimity is impossible; so that rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left." Abraham Lincoln, first inaugural address, March 4, 1861
It is interesting that Abraham Lincoln said: "The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society."
He also stated:
"A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people. Whoever rejects it does, of necessity, fly to anarchy or to despotism. Unanimity is impossible; so that rejecting the majority principle, anarchy or despotism in some form is all that is left." Abraham Lincoln, first inaugural address, March 4, 1861
Blayne
Let me say that I believe if one can avoid submitting to unjust laws without drawing fire from the powers that be then he is justified in my view. But I agree it is better to submit in some cases then to be jailed or killed and rendered impotent to help things change. One must choose wisely the hill they will die on.
JJ
I agree 100%. That's how Washington won the War of Independence.
To Be Continued
Copyright 2002 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved