2002-10-3 07:44:00
Let us continue commenting on Larry's post.
Larry says
One can "fast forward" to the United States, a paradigm of individual freedom in human history, and still see many instances of the majority supporting and favoring oppressive government. For example, not too long ago a majority of Americans probably favored many forms of public censorship of talk in regards to things like sexual mores, or even scientific theories like evolution. Not too many years ago, in fact in living memory of many on this list, a majority of Americans appear to have favored various forms of persecution and discrimination against homosexuals.
Similarly many of my father's generation favored racial discrimination. It took considerable effort by minorities (including much civil disobedience) to change this. I do not believe that a majority in the U.S. favored these reforms initially and it took a great deal of effort by minorities to change these attitudes. I think you will have to do quite bit more to prove to me that what you have stated here is a valid principle. I believe that the statement, "Tyranny by the majority is almost non existent," is almost obviously false, and just the opposite represents the true picture where the minority have to often fight hard and long to overcome the resistance of the majority.
JJ
There are two things that are causing a misunderstanding here.
(1) The examples you cite are in the past whereas the quote with which you are in disagreement is referring to present time in the free world.
(2) The examples you cite are not tyrannies as I used the word in chapter thirteen. They are inconveniences and injustices showing the imperfections of the human condition, but not tyrannies.
Here are several definitions of the word from the America Heritage dictionary:
1. A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.
2. The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler.
3. Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly.
4. Use of absolute power.
5. Extreme harshness or severity; rigor.
The use of the word in the chapter most closely harmonizes with the third definition. When tyranny is used by most writers it is usually used in reference to one person or group having absolute power or authority over another and using this power with cruelty and selfishness by the standards of the day.
King George, Hitler and Stalin, for instance, are commonly called tyrants because they exercised absolute and unjust power over their subjects. If the subjects defied them they were tortured, jailed or put to death. Cruel and unusual punishments were the rule of the day.
The statement "Tyranny by the majority is almost non existent," means that in this present time in the free world the majority do not accept absolute and cruel authority that suffocates the free will of humankind. An individual can often be corrupted with power and turn into a cruel tyrant, but it is rare indeed for over 50% of the population to desire such a thing, even if we go back in history searching for examples.
You mention past injustices such as: "censorship of talk in regards to things like sexual mores, or even scientific theories like evolution."
Censorship of sexual mores is certainly not a current problem nor has it been a tyranny in recent times and I would even doubt that it was supported by the majority at any time in my lifetime. I know when I was young all but the most religious desired less censorship.
Censorship of scientific theories in this century would not qualify as tyranny in my book, but there was some unjust use of authority. I would also doubt that a majority supported such censorship. They certainly do not today and the present time was the issue under discussion in the chapter.
You state:
"Not too many years ago, in fact in living memory of many on this list, a majority of Americans appear to have favored various forms of persecution and discrimination against homosexuals."
I would seriously doubt that in our lifetime that the majority actually supported persecution of gays, discrimination, perhaps, but discrimination is far from tyranny. I have been discriminated against many times in my life, but this falls far short of an experience with real tyranny.
Again, if we move to present time, I think most would admit that the majority are against discrimination or persecution of gays or any other minority.
Larry
Similarly many of my father's generation favored racial discrimination.
JJ
This was true, but even so there was no majority supporting a tyrannical wishing to take away all basic freedoms of minorities and again in this present time the majority is against racial discrimination of any kind.
Larry
It took considerable effort by minorities (including much civil disobedience) to change this. I do not believe that a majority in the U.S. favored these reforms initially and it took a great deal of effort by minorities to change these attitudes.
JJ
I believe that the civil disobedience became effective right about the time that the majority opinion favored justice for the minorities and without this majority support the revolution of the sixties could not have taken place.
Now let us go back to the statement causing the problem: "Tyranny by the majority IS almost non existent."
It seems to me that the disagreement with this is based on either a miscommunication on my part or a misunderstanding on the part of readers, but I can find no example that contradicts it.
The point to keep in mind is no claim is made that the majority is perfect, just as no human or group of humans is perfect, but imperfect actions or beliefs of the majority in this present time are a far cry from tyrannical dictators past and present. Perhaps one should ask this question. Would you rather cast your fate to the whims of a dictator such as Hitler, Stalin or Castro or to the graces of the common people making up the majority? Abraham Lincoln indeed showed much trust toward the majority when he said "God must have loved the common people, for he made so many of them." There are a lot of them and this great majority, though imperfect seeks to do what is right and does not desire tyranny.
More to come...
Copyright 2002 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved