2001-11-23 04:01:00
I bought a new computer the other day, a Mac notebook with a higher system than I have been using and have been spending quite a bit of time installing software and working out the bugs. Between that and Thanksgiving I haven't gotten much written lately, but should be back on schedule tomorrow.
John still has lots of questions:
That's interesting about Joseph having prophesied that he would not live to age forty, and also that he would not go to the Rocky Mountains with the rest of the Saints. Do you have the references, so I can read more about that? The material in this chapter caused me to reflect on some other things, which I have had questions about -- and wonder if you knew the answers.
JJ:
In the White Horse prophecy he stated he would not live to go to the Rocky Mountains. I have included it at the end of the post. It is quite interesting reading, even though all the prophesies did not literally come to pass.
The Mormon Church uses the word "spurious" in connection with it and discourages the members from quoting it.
I believe I read that he said he would not live to the age of forty in a book called "The Prophesies of the Prophet Joseph Smith." I no longer have a copy and do not recall the author.
John:
1. Plural Marriage. Joseph is said to have received revelation on this matter as early as 1830, and it is well documented that he began the practice shortly thereafter, accumulating many plural wives before he died. However -- he also kept the matter very "hush-hush" (it wasn't revealed to the body of the church until 1852). Why? Was it fear of persecution ... or something more. Joseph has been quoted as saying that he was deceived (about this revelation), and that he could see that it should be stopped at once -- that unless it was, the church would be forced to leave the country (which was pretty much the case by the 1880's). What is your read on this whole thing?
JJ:
It is interesting that many who were called prophets made the claim that God told them to practice plural marriage, from Abraham to Davis, Solomon and later Mohammed and finally Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
It is interesting that Djwahl Khul stated that the Master Jesus overshadowed Mohammed and Joseph also claimed to receive revelation from him.
There is a time and place for everything and it is possible that some teachers have been told to take plural wives to prepare bodies for an enlightened seed, yet in each case average people joined in the practice and overall the progeny of polygamists are no more children of light than the so-called nonbelievers.
I sought an answer on this principle and I'll relate it to you to run by your soul.
Both the beginning and the end of plural marriage in the Mormon Church were not correct. Joseph picked up through revelation, the basic principles of the Molecular Relationship. Unfortunately they did not even know what molecules and atoms were in those days and he organized it according to the thoughtform of the time and called it "the New and Everlasting Order of Marriage." Through the encouragement of Brigham Young and others he incorporated plural relationships into the order, which thing he began to regret near the end of his life, especially the physical side.
Brigham Young, after the death of Joseph, went ahead full steam with the principle, having 27 wives for himself and encouraging it among the brethren.
As you know the U.S. Government became morally outraged by the practice and made laws against it and began to jail and persecute the leadership of the church. In 1890 the leadership under Wilford Woodruff gave into the pressure and not only discontinued it but outlawed it among the members.
After this the persecution ceased and the church has had a fairly easy coast in growth since that time.
What was wrong with discontinuing it if it was a mistake to begin with?
Because they did it for the wrong reason. The government attempted to take away their constitutional right to practice their religion and they yielded to it. They had an opportunity to stand up for freedom of thought and religion and that would have helped to establish a greater foothold for freedom than we have today.
It should have been discontinued because of a higher clarifying revelation rather than government pressure.
Yielding a principle they believed in to government pressure caused a loss of light among the leadership and from that point on the church began to lose the little light they had on many principles.
Unfortunately most spiritual organizations go through something like this.
John:
Falling away? Many have said that the Mormon Church is different than the church Joseph established. JJ, what are the key differences you see?
JJ:
There are many but I'll name three:
(1) Loss of revelation. The church today claims to get revelation but hasn't produced one for 100 years or so.
(2) Loss of free agency. Even though free agency is till preached a lot, members are only free to speak "approved" words. If the authorities "frown" on your words or thoughts, you will be excommunicated.
(3) Loss of spiritual power and experiences. When you compare the spiritual experiences in the early church to those that occur today there is a tremendous difference in quantity and quality. Many of those who do have spiritual experiences are suspected to do so by the power of the devil. I have been accused of this myself.
John:
And ... do you see the Mormon Church changing to become what the Lord's church needs to be at the time Zion gets established? If not ... what organization do you see being the focal point of leading the "saints" back to the New Jerusalem, building a temple there, and establishing (finally) Zion -- prior to the grand 2nd coming of the Lord? John Z.
JJ:
Things may have worked out this way if Joseph would have lived. Even though it is reported he predicted an early death for himself, he was supposed to live. He was given a revelation to go west and escape his impending death, but he did not obey. Therefore his death changed many future events and altered some of the prophesies written in the Mormon scriptures.
The plans for the gathering are quite a bit different now than they were in that age and Jackson County will not be a gathering place in any immediate future. The whole Mormon experiment had many failures and the plans of the Christ were readjusted accordingly.
For some time to come the LDS Church will crystallize and become rigid in their approach until they become less enlightened than many protestant churches. The challenge will come from members at the bottom of the totem pole who begin to thirst for higher knowledge and more and more small groups will begin to meet privately and discuss higher principles. How the leadership handles this situation as it amplifies will determine the fate of the church.
It is most likely that the leadership of the Mormon Church will entirely miss out on the building of Zion and the establishment of the new age. They will be too busy protecting the church from heresy.
You ask about the Mormon doctrine of doing baptisms and ordinances on behalf of the dead.
It is possible for the living to help the dead through prayer and symbolic ordinances, especially if the people died in a state of guilt or the harboring of grievances. But it is quite useless to do such work for people who have died thousands, and often hundreds of years ago as they have moved on to higher realms or another earth life.
Joseph summed it up well when he said:
"A man may act as proxy for his own relatives; the ordinances of the Gospel which were laid out before the foundations of the world have thus been fulfilled by them, and we may be baptized for those whom we have much friendship for; but IT MUST FIRST BE REVEALED TO THE MAN OF GOD, LEST WE SHOULD RUN TOO FAR." History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.17, p.366.
Today the church runs "too far" in attempting to do work for the dead clear back to Adam. Except in rare cases they do not work by revelation about the need of the dead as Joseph mentioned.
Paul was correct in advising us to cease from "endless genealogies." (I Tim 1:4)
The "WHITE HORSE" Prophecy
This prophecy spoken by Joseph Smith on May 6,1843 in the presence of Edwin Rushton and Theodore Turley. This was repeated in a meeting about two weeks later, but in both instances was written out from memory afterwards: There has been much criticism of the "White Horse" prophecy, many saying there is no foundation for it. But Brigham Young quotes from it in the Journal of Discourses.
"On or about the sixth day of May 1843, a grand review of the Nauvoo Legion was held in Nauvoo. (Illinois) The Prophet Joseph complimented them for their good discipline and evolutions performed. The weather being hot, he called for a glass of water. With the glass of water in his hand he said, "I drink to you a toast to the overthrow of the mobocrats."
"The next morning a man who had heard the Prophet give the toast returned to visit the Mansion of the Prophet. And so abused him with bad language. That the man was ordered out by the Prophet. It was while the two were out that my attention was attracted to them and hearing the man speaking in a loud tone of voice. I went toward them; the man finally leaving. There were present the Prophet Joseph Smith, Theodore Turley, and myself. The Prophet began talking to us of the mobbings and drivings and persecutions we as a people have endured. But, said he, "We will have worse things to see; our persecutors will have all the mobbings they want. Don't wish them any harm. For when you see their sufferings you will shed bitter tears for them." While this conversation was going on we stood by his south wicket gate in a triangle. Turning to me he said: "I want to tell you something. I will speak a parable like unto John the Revelator. You will go to the Rocky Mountains. And you will be a great and mighty people, established there, which I will call the 'White Horse of Peace and Safety.' When the Prophet said you will see it, I asked him, "Where will you be at that time?" He said, "I shall never go there. Your enemies will continue to follow you with persecutions and will make obnoxious laws against you in Congress to destroy the White Horse, but you will have a friend or two 'to defend you' to throw out the worst part of the laws, so they will not hurt much. You must continue to petition Congress all the time, they will treat you like strangers and aliens, and they will not give you your rights but will govern you with strangers and commissioners; you will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed; it will hang by a thread, as it were, as fine as the finest silk fiber."
"At this point the Prophet's countenance became sad; he said, "I love the constitution. It was made by the inspiration of God. And it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse and the Red Horse. Who will combine in its defense. The White Horse will raise an ensign on the tops of the mountains of peace and safety. The White Horse will find the mountains full of minerals and they will become very rich. You will see silver piled up in the streets "You will see gold shoveled up like sand. Gold will be of little value even in a mercantile capacity, for the people of the world will have something else to do in seeking for salvation "The time will come when the banks in every nation will fail and only two places will be safe where people can deposit their gold and treasures. These places will be the White Horse and England's vaults."
"A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before; for the land will be literally left without a supreme government. And every species of wickedness will run rampant. Father will be against son, and son against father, mother against daughter, and daughter against mother. The most terrible scenes of murder and bloodshed and rapine that have ever been looked upon will take place. "Peace will be taken from the earth and there will be no peace only in the Rocky Mountains. This will cause many hundreds and thousands of the honest in heart to gather there; not because they would be saints but for safety and because they would not take up the sword against their neighbor."
"You will be so numerous that you will be in danger of famine, but not for the want of seed time and harvest, but because of so many to be fed, Many will come with bundles under their arms to escape the calamities, and there will be no escape except by fleeing to Zion. "Those that come to you will try to keep the laws and be one with you, for they will see your unity and the greatness of your organization. The Turkish Empire or the Crescent will be one of the first powers that will be disrupted, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to he preached in the Holy Land."
"The Lord took of the best blood of the nations and planted them on the small islands now called England and Great Britain, and gave them great power in the nations for a thousand years and their power will continue with them, that they may keep the balance of power and keep Russia from usurping her power over all the world. England and France are now bitter enemies, (1843) but they will be allied together and he united to keep Russia from conquering the world."
"The two Popes, Greek and Catholic, will come together and be united. The Protestant religions do not know how much they are indebted to Henry the VIII for throwing off the Pope's Bull and establishing the Protestant faith. He was the only monarch who could do so at the time, and he did it because this nation, England, was at his back to sustain him. One of the peculiar features in England is the established red coat, a uniform making so remarkable a mark to shoot at, and yet they have conquered wherever they have gone. The reason for this will be known by them some day. The Lion and the Unicorn of Israel is their ensign, the wisdom and statesmanship of England comes from having so much of the blood of Israel in the nation. "While the terrible revolution of which I have spoken has been going on. England will be neutral until it becomes so inhuman that she will interfere to stop the shedding of blood. England and France will unite together to make peace. not to subdue the nations; they will find the nations so broken up and so many claiming government, till there will be no responsible government. Then it will appear to the other nations or powers as though England had taken possession of the country. The Black Horse will flee to the invaders and will join with them. for they will have fear of becoming slaves again. knowing England did not believe in slavery, fleeing to them they believe would make them safe; armed with British bayonets. the doings of the "Black" Horse will he terrible."
Here the Prophet said he could not bear to look longer upon the scene as shown him in vision and asked the Lord to close the scene. Continuing, he said. "During this time the great White Horse will have gathered strength sending out Elders to gather the honest in heart among the Pale Horse, or people of the United States, to stand by the Constitution of the United States as it was given by inspiration of God. "In these days God will set up a kingdom never to he thrown down, for other kingdoms to come unto. And these kingdoms that will not let the Gospel be preached will be humbled until they will."
"England, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, and Belgium, have a considerable amount of the blood of Israel among their people WHICH must be gathered. Then nations will submit to the kingdom of God. England will be the last of these kingdoms to surrender. but when she does she will do it as a whole in comparison as she threw off the Catholic power. The nobility know that the Gospel is true but it has not enough pomp and grandeur and influence. for them to embrace it. They are proud and will not acknowledge the kingdom of God, or come unto it until they see the power which it will have. Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by a cordon band of the White Horse and the Red Horse."
"The coming of the Messiah among this people will be so natural, that "only" those who see Him will know that He has come, but He will come and give His laws unto Zion, and minister unto His people. This will not be His coming in the clouds of heaven to take vengeance on the wicked of the world."
"The Temple in Jackson County will be built in this generation. The saints will think there will not be time to build it but with all the help you will receive you can put up a great temple quickly. They will have all the gold, silver, and precious stones; for these things only will be used for the beautifying of the temple; all the skilled mechanics you want, and the Ten Tribes of Israel will help you build it. When you see this land bound with iron you may look toward Jackson County. At this point he made a pause, and looking up as though the vision was still in view, he said. "There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains (California) that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese unless great care and protection are given." Speaking of the heathen nations he said, "Where there is no law there is no condemnation, and this will apply to them. Power will be given the White Horse to rebuke nations afar off, and they will be one with the White Horse, but when the law goes forth they will obey; for the law will go forth from Zion. The last great struggle Zion will have to contend with will be when the whole of the Americas will be made the Zion of our God. Those opposing will be called Gog and Magog some of the nations of the world led by the Russian czar and their power will be great, but all opposition will be overcome and then this land will be the Zion of our God."
Copyright 2001 by J.J. Dewey, All Rights Reserved