Without Sin?

2001-9-21 12:51:00

Interesting facts on Israel, Claire. It is indeed disturbing that the P.L.O. Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Israel, to their credit, has no such charter in relation to their enemies.

Travis, My Friend,

Thank you for responding to my post, but I want to take a few moments and clarify something. In my post on Modern Illusions when I referred to "people saying or believing XYZ," I was not attempting to point the finger at you or members of this list. I was referring to comments I have heard from all sources including some on this list, other lists, radio, TV, newspapers and personal contact.

When I say, for instance, that people are judging the United States to be as bad of a terrorist as those who struck New York, believe me there are those who are saying such things and worse.

Travis:
I don't think I have seen anyone do this. We have simply pointed out that we are not a squeaky clean as others would have us believe.

JJ
I do not know anyone who thinks we are squeaky clean. Can you name these people? If not, why bring up this as a point of argument when no one else is defending the United States in this direction?

Travis:
We have said that the US has done some things that can be seen by the people of the Middle East as acts of terrorism. Bombing them from afar, for one. How is that different from when they bomb us?

JJ
You need to let me know what you are referring to here. I am aware of two bombings by the United States in the Middle East - Iraq and Afghanistan.

The bombing of military targets in Iraq during a declared war to stop an expansive conquest by a Hitler-type tyrant (who planned on invading Saudi Arabia next) is very much different than an attempt to destroy a nation you are not at war with, who did not initiate the conflict. If Saddam Hussein was not stopped in his expansionism, the situation we face now would look pleasant.

As far as Afghanistan goes, I do not agree with Clinton's attacking it, a nation who was up to that point an ally. Even so, this act cannot be compared to the 911 attack. Why?

About a week before Osama Bin Laden engineered an attack on U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania which cost many American lives with the threat of more to come, Clinton sought with cruise missiles to take out Osama Bin Laden and his training camps who were believed to be in Afghanistan. Now, it is possible that his problems with Lewinski made him attack when he did, but leaders of both houses of Congress acknowledged that Bin Laden was probably in Afghanistan near where the missiles were headed. Clinton later said he missed Osama Bin Laden by mere hours.

There was not wholesale slaughter here as some would have you believe but the press reported about 100 casualties with many of these supposedly being terrorists.

Even if Clinton's attack was ill conceived (as I believe it was) it has no comparison with the destruction of over 6000 innocent lives by terrorists who want to completely destroy the United States and the rest of civilization as we know it. The terrorists drew first blood.

There is a difference between a just response to terrorism and terrorism. There is a difference between war and terrorism. To lump them all together under the same banner is to remove oneself from an understandable discussion.

Travis:
But we should acknowledge our mistakes and learn from them. Something I don't see a lot of people willing to do sometimes.

JJ
I have acknowledged it many times and see many others doing it.

On the other hand there are differences of opinion about what the mistakes are and we must allow for these varieties of opinion.

Travis:
To me, Terrorism is the use of violent force against innocent civilians to accomplish a change in the position of a government.

JJ
We need to be on the same page here in the use of words. That is not the way it is used in the common vernacular. If it were then the Allies were terrorists in fighting against Hitler and Japan in World War II.

You give the impression that we have committed mass atrocities against Afghanistan and we have not. If it were not for the impulsive Clinton response during the Monica Lewinski problem they would probably still be our allies. Maybe sex did matter.

Travis:
And if we were to, for example, carpet bomb Afghanistan, thousands of civilians would be killed.

JJ
No one is talking about doing this. They are talking about surgical strikes of terrorist camps.

Travis:
But we don't bomb a whole city to get the bad guy.

JJ
Again, no one is talking about doing this. Why bring it up?

Travis:
I suspect we would both chose 2. But in this case, does that mean we should kill 5,000 of them? Level their tallest buildings?

JJ
No one is saying it means that.

Travis:
Seek not retribution, but justice. In so doing, you eliminate their ability to cause harm.

JJ
Sounds good but what is your plan? That's like saying I'm going to make a million dollars without offending anyone. Easy to say but hard to do.

Travis talks about these terrorists as if their only choice is to operate in the shadows, but this is not their only choice. I have one thing in common with the terrorists. I also want to change the world, but my goals are 180 degrees away from theirs. I do not see any need to operate in the shadows, but offer my teachings for all to read in the light. Osama Bin Laden could do the same if he felt his beliefs could withstand the light of day. Because he knows they will not, he must operate in the dark in an era of freedom of speech.

Travis, I think we are actually quite close in our outlook once we fine tune our communication.